Employing Differences, Episode 229: May I disagree?

"I've largely gotten to the point where I can say, Hmm, I disagree, but no one else needs to know about that. It's not worth my time, or my energy to bring it up."

Karen & Paul discuss the importance of knowing when to speak up and disagree, and preparing for potential outcomes.


Links and items mentioned in this episode:

• Employing Differences, Episode 171 - Is it safe to disagree with me?

Transcript

[00:00:00] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals. 

[00:00:09] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:10] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:00:11] Karen: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, may I disagree? 

[00:00:18] Paul: Those of you who've listened to the show for a while know that Karen and I are actually big fans of disagreement.

[00:00:24] Paul: We find it really useful when there is something that lands differently with people in a group, in a pair that's working together. Whatever it is, something in that collaborative space between. When there is a difference, we wanna be able to talk about it. When someone else draws a different conclusion that we do, it's really useful to explore that and there are often challenges to that.

[00:00:45] Paul: Back in episode 171, we talked about the question of whether or not it's safe to disagree with me, so what are things that I can do to make it so that the other person feels safe bringing up differences and things like that? Today we wanna look at the other side of that, which is noticing that I have a disagreement in my head with some other person, and I'm wondering whether or not it's safe for me to disagree with them, whether or not I want to let that disagreement come out of my mouth.

[00:01:10] Paul: So today we want to look at that question of when we find ourselves potentially in conflict with someone, where we, what we actually want to do about that. Is it safe for us? Do we want to bring it up or do we want to let it go? 

[00:01:24] Karen: So I think the, you know, is it safe to disagree thing comes at a lot of levels.

[00:01:30] Karen: For me, one of the most obvious ones is if there's a difference in hierarchy. So can I tell my boss I think he's wrong? Like, is that a good idea? And, hopefully, we want that to always be a good idea as Paul said, but there are some bosses on some subjects or some areas where that's just not going to be safe.

[00:01:47] Karen: And may not be explicitly stated like it's one thing if the boss is saying, yep, I'm clear on this. There's no room for discussion. We just need to move for whatever reason like that would be a different thing. But here we're really talking about the space where theoretically, I ought to be able to disagree, but in practice, it doesn't feel like that's going to go well, maybe emotionally, maybe it's going to show up on some future evaluation of me.

[00:02:11] Karen: Maybe it's going to put my job in peril. And this is really where we want to explore today is where our assessment is that there's something in them that can't handle the disagreement in a way that feels good or seems right. So I think hierarchy is one big source of that. So somebody who has more power, which could be a boss could also be a client that you don't want to lose, could be a coworker who's been around longer, or, you know, there are lots of versions of that.

[00:02:37] Karen: So I think that's one place. And then I think there's the space of the group that I'm in can't handle the disagreement either. You know, maybe I'm disagreeing with a coworker and it's important to the client that we're working with that we present a united front for whatever reason. And throwing them into the confusion of trying to figure out which of us they're going to go with when we disagree is way more damage than going away that I think is the wrong way.

[00:03:04] Karen: The worst way is to get all tangled up in disagreement kind of thing. So there could be group dynamics reasons as well. 

[00:03:11] Paul: I'll add one other thing to the sort of power and group dynamics things which is the emotional response, right? It may be that this is a peer or even a friend, like someone who, you know, I don't have either of those entanglements with in terms of my boss.

[00:03:27] Paul: They don't control how much money I make. They're not a client. Things like that. But it's just like I disagree with them. And I realized that if I tell them about this thing, they're going to blow up in some way, or they're going to melt down in some way. They're going to have an emotional reaction to it that I would rather avoid.

[00:03:43] Paul: And I think that that's sort of the key thing with the different things we've talked about here is that I think what comes up for us when we start going like, can I disagree here in a, do I even want to. What's happening is for various reasons, we're foreseeing that there may be some consequence of us expressing that disagreement, which we would rather avoid.

[00:04:05] Paul: And I think often that starts as just kind of a gut feeling of like, Ooh, I really don't want to bring this up. Right? I've got an idea. I noticed the thing or I noticed that I don't agree with this person on this thing. And then I have to do the math and I have to go, well, like, what is it that I'm worried is going to happen.

[00:04:20] Paul: So I think that's actually a really useful thing in terms of doing the calculus of does it make sense for me to bring this up is to start to think about what's the consequence of doing this that I'm worried about, that I'm afraid of having happened. And because until we can sort of bring that to the forefront of our mind, we can't be thoughtful about whether or not we actually want to bring up the disagreement or let it pass.

[00:04:41] Karen: Yeah. And I want to add one more variable in there, which is it is not the case that just because it's safe to disagree with a particular person on a particular day on a particular topic means that it always is safe. So it may just be today's just not the day to rock their boat.

[00:04:58] Karen: My husband and I are working on a number of home improvement projects for which my primary role is often sort of idea generation and his primary role is implementation, you know, actually cutting the things and doing the work. And we had a situation where he was headed into a piece of work that he didn't want to do the way I wanted it done because from his perspective, it was going to be way too complicated and way too difficult.

[00:05:19] Karen: And I was just like, Okay, you get to be the boss about that. That was not a moment where I could disagree with him. He was too stressed. He just needed to go ahead with the thing that he could wrap his head around. Two weeks later, the project has progressed. He's less stressed, hadn't quite implemented the thing we disagreed about.

[00:05:35] Karen: And I was able to say, so you're sure you want to do it that way? New day, different approach. And we're doing it the way I wanted to, but I couldn't push it that day because in that moment, his capacity was just not there. So I think there's a timing element as well that I just want to name.

[00:05:53] Karen: But the calculus is kind of the same. It just may be, do I disagree today? But if I don't disagree today, I may have to live with it for a long time. Or do I not disagree at all? Right? So there's that range. But we are not constant beings, we humans, in terms of what we can handle day to day or topic to topic.

[00:06:13] Paul: Yeah. And, you know, situationally too, that that may be like, Well, I'm pretty sure that my boss is not going to appreciate me bringing up this concern here in front of the board of directors. But maybe a different time, a different place, you know, sort of thing. And so, yeah, I think that's another piece about being thoughtful about, you know, disagreeing. Is now the right time?

[00:06:32] Paul: Is this the right place? So, you know, what are the consequences that I'd rather avoid? Is this an appropriate place or time? Would there be a better one where I really will have an opportunity to do it? Because we do want to be thoughtful about choosing to disagree or not. I think there are some of us have gone through periods of time where we've been rather knee-jerk reaction of we disagree with someone, everyone knows about it because we can't help but say anything.

[00:06:55] Paul: And certainly on some topics, even I am that way at times, but. 

[00:06:59] Karen: Me too. 

[00:07:00] Paul: Yeah. And I think there's another thing that then is important to keep in mind and sort of doing the math around it is what's the consequence of not disagreeing, right? Of not bringing up, of sitting with it. Because absolutely there are some times where, you know, to quote one of my favorite web comics, someone is wrong on the internet.

[00:07:21] Paul: I've largely gotten to the point where I can say, Hmm, I disagree, but no one else needs to know about that. It's not worth my time, my energy to bring it up. Would I love it if other people, you know, if this person hadn't said this thing, I disagree with them. Great. Do I really need to take the energy to put into this to disagree?

[00:07:40] Paul: No, I don't. 

[00:07:42] Paul: You know, but that's different than when maybe when somebody does it directly in front of me in a conversation where that's super relevant. So I do think that there are times when I can recognize, yeah, I can just let this go. There isn't a consequence to me for not to disagreeing, right?

[00:07:56] Paul: There isn't a consequence for not bringing it up, but sometimes there is, and I think we need to think about like, what's the long-term effect of choosing to not bring it up. 

[00:08:07] Karen: And I'm going to say, I think there usually is like most of the time there is a downside, or if there wasn't, we just wouldn't be thinking about it.

[00:08:14] Karen: Like we just wouldn't even be going there. But I want to put these two consequence things that you've said one earlier and one just now about I want to put them next to each other because there's what do we think will happen if we do disagree that makes us not want to. Somebody will be mad at us there will be an impact on our job it'll disrupt the group in some way it'll create some conflict that I'd rather avoid, much longer list as possible.

[00:08:38] Karen: What are those consequences? Like what's real on that side with what are the consequences if I don't say the thing that is what I'm disagreeing about. And those are, as you just said, they could be that something goes wrong with the project. It could be that the company gets a less good result. It could be that I seethe with resentment for days, right?

[00:09:00] Karen: Hopefully I manage my emotions better than that, but it could be that. It could be that I, or someone else is put down or dismissed or undervalued because of whatever's going on. Like there's a whole range of possibilities. And I just want to say out loud, I don't think this is easy. I mean, there are ones that are easy and we're not talking about them.

[00:09:19] Karen: But if we're having this conversation, it's not easy and it's very much a weighing of values of priorities. Am I willing to put my job on the line? If I'm pretty sure I want a new job by six months from now. Anyway, that's probably a different thing than if this is my career plan for the rest of my life.

[00:09:36] Karen: Like there's just a ton of context and complexity in this. And I think it's why we get stuck is because these things are so complicated. 

[00:09:45] Paul: And I think that another piece that comes into that we talked about the right now versus later for the other person's capacity to hear a disagreement. I think there's also a right now versus later for our capacity to tolerate not bringing it up, but also to skillfully bring it up.

[00:09:59] Paul: Like we need to recognize, like, is this the right time even for us? Right? I might go, you know, I'm not going to like the consequences long-term of not bringing this up, but I'm recognizing right now. I don't have the spoons, right? I can't. But there's a very good chance this is going to go badly if I bring it up now.

[00:10:14] Paul: So like our capacity is also something that sort of fluctuates day to day, moment to moment that we need to be aware of. But the other thing that I do want to come back around to, you know, is the not all doom and gloom part. I think it can also be really useful to look at if I do bring this up and it does go as well as I could reasonably expect that it would, what might be the good thing about that?

[00:10:35] Paul: I think we have a tendency when we're caught between a rock and a hard place between two things that we don't like, it's very easy to lose sight of what are the potential good things that could result from bringing it up or not bringing it up. Like, I think we need to be ready for the bad thing that might happen, right?

[00:10:51] Paul: If I'm going to bring this issue up to you, I need to be ready for the fact that you may get defensive, right? That you may blame me, that you may do other things. All of those things are based in my history of working with you and interacting with you and knowing what I know about you. I need to be ready for that.

[00:11:04] Paul: If I'm not ready for that, then I probably shouldn't bring it up. But I also need to have some reason to believe why it's useful to do that. Like, what is it that gives me hope that bringing it up is going to lead somewhere else? And where do I think that it could lead? And what's the good part about that, right?

[00:11:21] Paul: And if there isn't anything, if I'm going, look, there's a very good chance. Karen's going to get upset about this. And quite frankly, I can't conceive of any good result that would come from actually disagreeing here that can really help me go. Yeah, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to bring it up.

[00:11:35] Paul: I've done the math and just gone. Yeah, it doesn't make sense to do. 

[00:11:39] Karen: And I'll take that even a step further with an example from a situation I was in several years ago, but very often if I'm feeling strongly about disagreeing, it's because I think the group is going in a direction that's not optimal.

[00:11:52] Karen: And so the good thing in my head could be, okay, I'll disagree with this person. I will get my way, which will be good for the group. It will be a better product, a better outcome in whatever way. And I had a situation where I did exactly that calculus. And it was a colleague I was working with and I absolutely needed his skill set, like there was a part of the project he was doing that I did not have the ability or desire, frankly, to do.

[00:12:17] Karen: And I had a piece of the project that wasn't going to, you know, wouldn't have been his to do, but we needed to work together on it. And he was going in a direction that all of my research just said will not work. And I made my case and I did the disagreement thing and he conceded and we did it my way.

[00:12:33] Karen: And for the rest of the project, which was a long time. He just wasn't engaged. If it all came, you know, if we had any problems, it was always, well, if we'd done it my way, we wouldn't be in this problem. And he just frankly didn't put the work in anymore. Like, it just didn't go well. And ever after, I was very sure that his way would have resulted in failure.

[00:12:53] Karen: But that would have been better in retrospect to let it go to failure and keep the partnership functioning. Would have been a better move. And if I could do it over again, I'd do it that way. 

[00:13:02] Paul: Yeah, it's one of those things about, you know, be careful what you wish for. It's like, oh, I got what I wanted, which turned out to not at all be what I really wanted.

[00:13:10] Karen: Yeah, if you can't do it without a power struggle, it may not, like that's its own cost. And so that's another reason to maybe not disagree. 

[00:13:19] Paul: And one of the things we want to point out is that like, that is a legitimate conclusion to come to, right? You know, a friend of mine liked to say, you don't have to attend every argument you're invited to.

[00:13:29] Paul: And it's the same thing where if you realize that it's not going to make sense to disagree, you don't have to. If you do, right, if you go through this whole process and realize, yeah, you know, this isn't going to be easy, but I really do need to bring it up. Then you need to be able to do it well, which is actually what we plan on talking about next week, which is when you choose to do it.

[00:13:50] Paul: Here's how you can actually approach it in a way that in an informed and thoughtful way. Rather than just jumping into the argument unprepared, but sometimes you come to the conclusion that, yeah, it's not worth doing. And then you've got to figure out, okay, how do I sit with not having brought it up and really be at peace with that?

[00:14:08] Paul: And, you know, to the degree that I can not let that continue to influence the working relationship in a negative way going forward. It may come up again the next time the math might be different, but at least for now, I want to be able to get to that spot of being able to go, you know, I disagree, but I'm willing to let this go.

[00:14:26] Paul: And if you can't do that, that's probably an indication that you do need to bring it up. 

[00:14:30] Karen: Yeah. And I think a really significant piece of being able to be at peace with it in that way is to own the agency. So this didn't happen over my disagreements because I was powerless. This happened despite my disagreements, because I chose to use my agency to not disagree.

[00:14:47] Karen: I made a choice and I had some influence in that and that's the choice that I made. And if I can own that, then I can be much more peaceful. 

[00:14:55] Paul: So to track where we've been here today, we're talking about situations where we notice that inside our heads, we disagree with someone and we're trying to figure out, do we let that come out of our heads and how can we let it come out of our heads intentionally rather than unintentionally. You know, we talked about being clear about what is the consequence that we're afraid might happen.

[00:15:17] Paul: Like the factors that influence this are obviously things like a power dynamic. And so there may be some repercussions from things the other person chooses to do, we might not get a promotion. We may get fired. A client might not continue to work with us. There might be a group dynamics repercussions.

[00:15:33] Paul: Where as a result, now we're having some struggle working together and we need to present a united front to an outside group, or there may be an emotional reaction from another person that we'd rather avoid for whatever reason we're having this feeling inside ourselves. We're noticing that there's a thing that might happen if we disagree that we'd rather not have happen.

[00:15:51] Paul: And getting clear about that and what the cost of that actually is can help us to make a more informed, thoughtful decision about whether or not we want to do this. We also need to be aware of what's the consequence of choosing not to disagree, of choosing not to bring it up. And to recognize that these things are also situational, right?

[00:16:09] Paul: It might be, you know, the consequence of not bringing it up right now, not so bad. So I'm actually okay to not bring it up now or there's not really a good chance this person is going to hear this well right now. Maybe don't bring it up in front of the board. And so be aware of the situational factors that influence it as well, that human beings change time to time and keep our own capacity and the other person's capacity in mind as we're making that decision.

[00:16:33] Paul: And also not just thinking about the downsides, but the upsides, right? What might I be trying to achieve that would be worthwhile for our working relationship, for the project, for the work that we're trying to do together? What is it that I'm actually trying to achieve? And is that worth it? Am I going to regret having gotten what I hoped for as a result of disagreeing with this person?

[00:16:54] Paul: But recognizing that there can be good reasons to choose to work through that disagreement that can be good for all the parties involved if it goes well. And if we think there's a chance that that can happen, we can do the math and say, maybe I do want to lean into this and at the same time, recognizing that we don't have to disagree every time we notice that something is wrong. And to get good at being able to say, you know, I'm going to choose not to bring this up right now, that when we're thoughtful about this, when we recognize our own agency about it, we have a tendency to be less resentful.

[00:17:28] Paul: So it's not just that this didn't happen. And I didn't get my way, it's that, you know, I actually made a real choice here not to dig into this disagreement. And while that doesn't feel the best, it can generally help us be more at peace with the real decision that we've chosen to make there. 

[00:17:47] Karen: And that's going to do it for us today.

[00:17:48] Karen: Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:17:50] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis. And this has been Employing Differences.