Employing Differences

Employing Differences, Episode 298: When do I speak?

• Karen Gimnig & Paul Tevis • Season 1 • Episode 298

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"If you're the sort of person who naturally dominates conversation, step back. If you're the sort of person who naturally doesn't say anything, step in. And to add some nuance to that, really to think about and to listen for what are things that are being said in the group that's relevant, germane to the topic at hand."

Karen & Paul talk about how to be an effective meeting participant, focusing on when to speak up and when to hold back. They emphasize the importance of balancing natural tendencies—whether one is inclined to dominate discussions or remain silent. Key points include the value of bringing new, relevant information to the group and recognizing the group's capacity to hear contributions. The episode highlights discernment in communication, stressing concise and timely participation.

Introduction to Employing Differences

[00:00:03] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:08] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:09] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:11] Karen: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is: when do I speak?

Series Overview: Being a Good Meeting Participant

[00:00:18] Paul: So last week we started a series of episodes about being a good meeting participant. We've talked a lot on the show about facilitation and how to facilitate good meetings. We've talked a fair bit on the show recently, actually, about skills for working one-on-one, in collaborative and relational ways.

[00:00:35] Paul: What we're really talking about in this series of episodes is if you're a participant in a meeting, how can you help out the facilitator by being a good participant? What are things that you can do? Last week we talked about sort of doing your homework, you know, what preparation it's useful to do ahead of time.

[00:00:53] Paul: And what we wanna talk about today is those moments when you are in the meeting and you maybe have something that you wanna say, maybe you have something that you don't want to say, but you might be finding yourself going, hmm, I really hope somebody says this. Maybe there's a thing that needs or wants to be shared. What we're really thinking about today is how do we know when it's useful for us to be speaking in a meeting?

Step Up, Step Back: Balancing Participation

[00:01:21] Karen: And I definitely think one of the sort of core things that you may have heard if you're in this kind of space is the step up step back thing. And I think that's a really good beginning, basic thing, which is some of us are natural talkers. We jump in, we, I mean, you ask me to say something, I always have something to say.

[00:01:37] Karen: I'm good to go. And others are really not. Others will naturally hang back and tend not to speak and maybe not even say a thing that would be useful. So I think as a beginning, just very basic kind of philosophy, if you are someone who tends to jump in and speak, then err on the side of stepping back. Like, look for opportunities to step back and not say the thing.

[00:01:59] Karen: Particularly if others have said it. And we'll talk more about how to know when to do that. And if you're a person who normally would just sort of sit back and listen to look for opportunities, look for times when, hey, I have a thing to say that would help the group would move along. So I think that like counterbalancing the natural tendency so that everybody ends up more in the middle and we get a more even kind of sharing of this space, I think is really useful.

[00:02:24] Karen: And I think there's a lot more to it than that, that we'll continue to explore in the next few minutes here.

Effective Listening and Avoiding Repetition

[00:02:29] Paul: One of the things that you're pointing out a little bit is, you know, there's a fair bit of research out there that shows that groups are more effective when participation time and speaking time in particular is distributed more evenly. Which is not the natural tendency for most groups, that there is the natural tendency for one or two people to do most of the talking and most of the rest of the people to do most of the sitting and nodding.

[00:02:55] Paul: And what you're pointing at there is if you are one of those people, like I dare say the two of us, who have a tendency to be the one or two people who are talking, it is useful to know that about yourself and to sort of moderate that tendency. And similarly, if you have a tendency to be one of the smile and nod, uh, sorts of folks to moderate that tendency as well.

[00:03:15] Paul: And I think the thing that helps me with that, I sometimes joke that, you know, I went into, and it's not really a joke, facilitation to make the world safe from people like me, right. To try to do more of that, you know, creating more equal time, creating better structures so that groups and people can actually participate well.

[00:03:36] Paul: But we're talking here, and particularly in this series, about how you can help out when maybe your facilitator's not doing the best job of that, you know, maybe when they're, you know, they're new to it. And I think one of the really useful skills that you can apply as a participant is to listen to what's going on, what is being said, so that when, for example, it comes to you, you know, and you have a moment where you have an opportunity to say something, you can make the decision about whether or not to speak up based on what's actually been said in the space already.

[00:04:08] Karen: Yeah, I think we often in our competitive culture, have a thing that we're sort of in majority vote mode, meaning even if it's been said five times already, I need to add my support to the idea that I wanna support. And in general, that slows down meetings and doesn't change anybody's mind. So if we're trying to get to a collaborative space, if we're trying to get to consensus, which is largely the types of meetings we're talking about on the show, that add my vote at the very most, you wanna reference it as opposed to say the whole thing again.

[00:04:43] Karen: So this piece is, I think what you're talking about, Paul, is I need to know, oh, that's already been said, or it's already been said three times, or it's already been said five times. And, you know, the most I might wanna say is, you know, that thing Paul said is what I was gonna say. So I'm done. Or maybe with three words about what it was, about the thing Paul said about our plan of doing this or whatever that references where they are.

[00:05:09] Karen: Or several people have already talked about good reasons for going ahead and raising the budget in that way. I'm, I'm there. Stop. Right, so you've got like sort of 10 words maybe to reference the thing. And go on, because most of the time it is not useful to repeat a thing that has already been said, especially if it's already been said more than once.

The Importance of Discernment

[00:05:29] Karen: So that's part of, I think, what I will categorize broadly as a theme of this episode, which is discernment. So what is my discernment about, should I say this? Number one is, has it already been said? And then what's the very least I can say about it to accomplish whatever's gonna be accomplished knowing that the most likely result of me saying it again is her other people to stop listening.

Using Facilitation Tools

[00:05:53] Paul: There's a group that I'm part of where one of their distributed facilitation tools is that everyone in the meeting has a series of cards, right?

[00:06:02] Paul: And so one of the things is there are green cards, you know, let's say plus one on them. And so when someone else is speaking, if you agree with them, you can just raise your card, right? You don't have to say something. You know, the red, no card is I disagree, right? Things like that. But one that's really key is the dead horse card.

[00:06:18] Paul: And the thing that I often think about when I'm gonna say something is, would the other people in the room start raising the dead horse card? If I just say this, it's a useful threshold because as you point out, we do have a tendency to vote right, to pile on. But even if you're gonna do that, like you can do it in a brief way.

[00:06:38] Paul: And I will sometimes do that if I've gotten in the queue to speak. Right. And it comes to me and I do sort of exactly as you said. Mary's already raised the concern that I have about the plan, so I don't have anything else that I need to say. The time where I will say something is if I go, I've got something new to add.

Adding New Information

[00:06:53] Paul: And that's what we're really putting out there, is that it's useful when we're adding something new, right? So it might even still be, you know, I also have concerns about the plan, but they're not the same concerns that Mary raised. And so now, you know, I'm gonna say, you know, I, I, like Mary said I have concerns about the feasibility of this plan, but I'm also concerned about this other aspect of it, and then I can add that to it because it's something that hasn't been said in the space yet and that is useful to the group.

[00:07:25] Paul: And so that's the, it's not just listening for what has been said. It's thinking about what do I have that hasn't been said yet that brings new information.

[00:07:34] Karen: Yeah, I think that's probably my biggest filter is, do I have something to say that hasn't already been said?

[00:07:42] Karen: And even that is not quite that clean for me because the real question I wanna know, I wanna be looking at for discernment is, is it going to be useful for me to say it? And if it's a new idea that otherwise won't be in the room, it's got pretty good odds like that's a good filter.

[00:07:58] Karen: But sometimes everybody's worn out or sometimes I already said too much. Like I have another relevant idea that might even pivot things, but people are tired of listening to me right now, or they're tired of listening, period. Right now. They've already shut down or some big emotional thing has happened in the room, or the thing that I'm thinking about is really complex and people don't have the capacity right now to hear the complexity of the thing.

Considering Group Dynamics

[00:08:25] Karen: Like there's all sorts of layers of why it might be, but I think it's useful not only to think about the content of what I wanna say, but also where is the group in this moment. Like that is the thing that I'm thinking about saying, is it useful to the group coming from me at this time?

[00:08:45] Karen: And often, even though it's a valid idea, it hasn't been said before. There are times when it's just not gonna help. The people who are opposed are already opposed, and they're not looking, you know, they're not curious enough or ready to hear a different idea. And I might have a better shot at getting them to hear it if I haven't already said it at this meeting, if I can have an opportunity later or something like that.

[00:09:08] Karen: Or you know, the people who are all for it are already all for it or the room is already all for it. Like, I've got another reason to think it's a great idea that hasn't been said, but everybody's ready to consent for it already anyway. And why do we want to take more time to pile on more reasons when we're already gonna do it?

[00:09:25] Karen: It's not helpful. So that piece about is it useful from me at this time, I think is super important.

[00:09:33] Paul: And the thing that is tricky. Or that it's worth thinking about. Right. Because there are times when I feel like nobody in the room is hearing me. Like, I feel like I oftentimes we'll keep saying the thing, right? We'll keep coming back around because we're not necessarily getting a whole lot of acknowledgement of the thing that we've said.

[00:09:50] Paul: I've certainly been guilty of this before. Right? And if we're well regulated, we may recognize that as a, like, they either just can't hear this or they're just not good at acknowledging, you know, things that have been said, things like that. And I think what we need to, that's useful to recognize is that there are times when it feels like I just need to dig in my heels here.

[00:10:10] Paul: Yes, it feels like the ship has already sailed, but I need to make a point. I need to do the thing. And I think we often don't recognize the damage that does to our ability to affect the group in the future. Like when we participate well in meetings. We get a reputation for that. Like people look forward to the things that we have to say.

[00:10:29] Paul: You said, you know, there's something about recognizing maybe this thing really does need to be said, but nobody in the room will listen to me. It's all of my worst enemies.

[00:10:39] Karen: Or the key people.

[00:10:40] Paul: Yeah. Who the person who needs to be convinced, right? The person who is the holdout or the decider or the whatever have you, it's like I do need to assess, like, will they listen to me about this?

[00:10:50] Paul: And it may be that they won't listen to me because of the way that I have not participated well in past meetings. I know that I have, I've talked about this before. I've got a list of folks in various groups that I'm part of where when, as soon as they raise their hand to speak, I'm kind of going, oh, no, and, you know, maybe they're gonna make a good point and maybe they're gonna be brief about it.

[00:11:11] Paul: And that changes my perspective on them. But that does happen. So I think part of being a good meeting participant, right, again, is like when I'm deciding about when to speak, I might still really want to say the thing. And I need to ask myself is that helping my standing in the group, my ability to influence the group in the future, my relationship with the people here.

[00:11:35] Paul: Because if this ship has already sailed. Then, you know, me just being able to get up there to say the things so that later I can tell you I told you so, is probably not useful to the group and really not that useful to me.

[00:11:49] Karen: Yeah. And I think there's room for, it's not useful to the group, but it is really useful to me and it's worth it to me. But I think we have to weigh that against all those things you just said about like what it costs me in the long run and make sure we're, again, it's a discernment question.

[00:12:03] Karen: This isn't a, like, check this box and you know, you're good. It really is a, thinking about a pretty complex system and where do I fall in it. 

Conciseness and Timing

[00:12:13] Karen: We aren't gonna talk a lot in this episode about, like, the skills of speaking. Well we did a lot of that back in episode 289, so feel free to go back to that one for that, like how to speak well and that will apply in meetings as well as other environments.

[00:12:27] Karen: But I do wanna say that in addition to the, like, when do I speak, there's a, how much do I speak part of this? And I think we need to just name here as part of this episode that if I can say the thing in fewer words, it's more likely to be heard. Sometimes we call it self-censoring, and it doesn't mean self-censoring in the terms of not saying the thing at all, although it can, as we've just been talking about.

[00:12:49] Karen: But it's also like, how do I cut down to what actually is gonna be hearable. So I can get that really concise thing. It's one of the reasons, as a facilitator, I like to give people time to think before I ask them to speak, but if you don't have a facilitator doing that, or if they do take advantage of that time, but you know, I often like to have a notepad with me in meetings and I'll jot down a few words in between what other people are saying to try to think about.

[00:13:17] Karen: Okay, there's, in my head, this is a big idea that's like two pages worth of speaking and the capacity of listening is like two sentences worth. So how do I get to the core thing? That's what I really want heard and say that really concisely. And if I have that, that's more likely to be a useful thing to say.

[00:13:38] Karen: If I can't say it concisely, this may not be the time to say it.

[00:13:42] Paul: Exactly. 

Recap and Conclusion

[00:13:44] Paul: So to track sort of where we've been here today, we're talking about how to be a good meeting participant. Some of that involves, and like we talked about last time, doing some preparation. Sometimes you're doing preparation in the meeting when you're like, I need to figure out, I'm gonna say this thing that I didn't realize I was gonna need to talk about.

[00:13:59] Paul: How can I say it concisely and sort of thing. But, you know, we started in that place of, there's the advice that's pretty good, right? Of knowing whether or not your natural tendency is to take the center of attention and be in the limelight or to sit back on the edge of it and moderate that, right?

[00:14:15] Paul: If you're the sort of person who naturally dominates conversation, step back. If you're the sort of person who naturally doesn't say anything, step in. And to add some nuance to that, really to think about and to listen for what are things that are being said in the group that's relevant, germane to the topic at hand.

[00:14:33] Paul: And if you are planning to say something, if the thing that you are thinking about saying has already been said, you may not need to do it. Conversely, if you've got something that isn't being said right, that may be a really useful time to step in to say something, right? So the idea that as a good meeting participant you're bringing new information to the group. Information the group doesn't already have.

[00:14:58] Paul: That's a really useful way to think about this discernment that we're talking about. You know, not to be accused of beating a dead horse, but bringing in new things for the people to think about. And also to ask yourself the question. It's like, even if this is new information, can these people hear that thing from me right now?

[00:15:16] Paul: Really assessing the group's capacity to hear anything, but also can they hear it from you. Because recognizing that over time, how we participate in meetings, in groups influences their willingness and ability to hear the thing that you have to say. So there may be times where it's like, well, maybe they could hear somebody say it, but they're not gonna be able to hear me say it.

[00:15:36] Paul: And quite frankly, I might not be able to say it well enough right now. I might not be concise. I might be a little angry, right? I might be in an emotional state where it's not useful for me to say that, and it's not useful for the group. So thinking about, you know, all of these things. And then, you know, looking back at the things we've talked about before about how to say things skillfully, keeping those in mind can really help you to be a better meeting participant.

[00:16:03] Karen: Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:16:06] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis. This has been Employing Differences.