This episode focuses on a very special role: part therapist, part mediator, part wrangler of budget and schedule. It is none other than the role of the Owners' Project Manager. This is a required role on any public project in Massachusetts that is worth over $1.5 million. We were lucky enough to sit down on zoom with John Sayre-Scibona of Design Technique, before he starts a new chapter as a gentleman of leisure and closes the doors to his boutique OPM firm, to discuss the role and responsibilities of an OPM on public library building projects.
This episode focuses on a very special role: part therapist, part mediator, part wrangler of budget and schedule. It is none other than the role of the Owners' Project Manager. This is a required role on any public project in Massachusetts that is worth over $1.5 million. We were lucky enough to sit down on zoom with John Sayre-Scibona of Design Technique, before he starts a new chapter as a gentleman of leisure and closes the doors to his boutique OPM firm, to discuss the role and responsibilities of an OPM on public library building projects.
Welcome to"Building Literacy: Public Library Construction", a podcast for librarians, trustees and local officials who are exploring or undertaking a renovation, expansion, or new construction project for their library. My name is Andrea Bono-Bunker.
Lauren Stara:And my name is Lauren Stara. And we are the library buildings specialists who administer the Massachusetts Public Library Construction Program, a multi-million dollar grant program run by the Massachusetts Board of Library Commissioners, which is the state agency for libraries.
Andrea Bunker:While this podcast is Massachusetts-focused, stakeholders in library building projects everywhere may find helpful information within these episodes. From fundraising and advocacy campaigns to sustainability and resilience to the planning, design and construction process, there is something for everyone. If there is a public library building project topic we have not covered but that is of interest to you, please email me at Andrea.Bunker@mass.gov
Lauren Stara:Or me at Lauren.Stara@mass.gov.
Andrea Bunker:This episode focuses on a very special role: part therapist, part mediator, part wrangler of budget and schedule. It is none other than the role of the OPM, otherwise known as the owners' project manager. Let's first check in with Barbara Friedman, formerly of Erving and Mark Contois formerly of Framingham, to hear about their experiences with their OPMs before we dive right in.
Barbara Friedman:One of the things he allowed me to do was he allowed me to vent when I needed to vent, and that was very important. And every time he got up at town meeting, he sold the project. He was the kind of guy that fits well into a small tow. Somebody who speaks to your community is golden.
Mark Contois:We were fortunate that one of the principals of the firm was always accessible, definitely on our side of the project, but understanding that he needed to work closely with the architect and the contractor. They kept the city of Framingham's best interest, first and foremost. They also understood the MBLC building program from front to back. The entire process worked extremely well: great communication, at every meeting, understood and was able to explain the technical side of construction to those of us who weren't there to explain what the MBLC expected from the contractor in terms of reporting and making sure that the contractor understood that schedule and it was important, even though the contractor is really busy.
Andrea Bunker:This is a required role on any public project in Massachusetts that is worth over $1.5 million. We were lucky enough to sit down on zoom with John Sayre-Scibona of Design Technique, before he starts a new chapter as a gentleman of leisure and closes the doors to his boutique OPM firm, to discuss the role and responsibilities of an OPM. In full disclosure, John was my OPM, he was also Mark's OPM on both of our library building projects. John, thank you so much for taking the time to be here and to talk about your work and the work of an OPM in general. Let's start off with telling our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you became an OPM.
John Sayre-Scibona:Sure, thanks for having me. I really appreciate you discussing this. I think it's a very valuable topic for library directors and stakeholders in the library design and bid process. So my background, I actually came to Newburyport back in the '70s and started out building spiral stairs. From there I moved on to carpentry and went into sort of high end residential carpentry, and then did a lot of work on my own making cabinets, more high end carpentry, multimillion dollar homes. It was a great period of time, and the recession hit. So I actually went to work for some other contractors. And then from there I went on to be a project manager for a multinational woodworking company that did big office fit outs downtown for banks and insurance companies and sort of got a real feel for sort of the inside and the contracting world. But from there, I actually had met an Owners' Project Manager for another high end residential work I was a carpenter on, and he introduced me to owners' project management. Through a series of events, he and I ended up hooking up. Early on one of my first projects actually, I was filling in for one of our site reps and he was doing quality control at the Boston Public Library. There was a big renovation of Bates Hall. That was a pretty incredible experience, and I was just filling in for vacation time that scaffolding was all the way up to the ceiling and must be like three storeys worth of scaffolding. You're right up there with that dental and those plaster molded bowers or whatever it was all up there, egg-and-dart. And anyway, it was a pretty cool situation with the BPL. But then, I guess my first project with Design Technique was a $10 million project in Manchester-by-the-Sea. From there, we actually then moved on to the Newburyport Public Library, which is actually just over 20 years ago or so I believe. Since then, including Newburyport, I've completed 12 public libraries. 11 of those were MBLC projects. And of those, eight went through the grant round application. So I kind of get your drill on the MBLC side, what has to be done. But it's been a pretty exciting career, a lot of great people, a lot of great projects, some easy, some tedious, I suppose, some with their own, you know, world of mishagos to get these things done, whether they're on a general contracting side or public bid side. And I think what's great is what you all bring to the table in that process, right, through the grant process, through oversight of the drawings as the drawings are developed and working with the architect and library director on the program. That's in a nutshell, where I've been, what I've been doing. So it's been a great ride, I would say. Some of our premier projects, in particular was the Woburn Public Library, as you well know, pretty amazing project, taking an H. H. Richardson classic library to bring it into the current century and beyond, I guess. Award winning, which is always nice. We also did the town of Harvard Public Library, another award winning... both of those projects were with CBT, which is kind of interesting, so.
Andrea Bunker:It's so great to know what that background is. And when you were a project manager, how did that differ from being an owners' project manager.
John Sayre-Scibona:So I was a project manager for this woodworking firm, as I said, and we worked with a general contractor, and I represented the woodworking company to make sure that our product was bid correctly, produced correctly, fit and was assembled and installed correctly. And I managed the budget for the woodworking company, making sure that, obviously, that they made a profit so that we didn't have any cost overruns. So as in general construction, there's a project manager, there's at least three levels of management on a construction project for the contractor. So there's the boots on the ground, there's a superintendent, he may have an assistant or a project engineer, and then there's a project manager, and then usually a project exec with some of these larger firms and then the named owners. So the project manager on a construction project basically manages the job for the general contractor. So in his world, he's protecting their company and managing the buyouts, the subcontractors working with the architect and hopefully working well with the OPM to make sure that their project moves forward and again, that they made the profit they need to to keep the project moving forward. So they were pretty much our liaison with the construction company. So an owners' project manager represents obviously the owner. So we're their eyes and ears on the project. As we would say, for Design Technique, managing the process of design and construction for the owner, so our eyes and ears are totally focused on protection of the owners as much as possible. Sometimes we say, don't necessarily out loud, but say we protect the owner from themselves as well. So there are times when the owner may make a certain request that may be kind of outof line, they can't afford it, it may slow up the progress of the design or the progress of construction. So we help sort of mitigate that, but also want to make sure that their concerns or needs are addressed, which is always important, make sure that they're heard, which we can get into later on as well. So.
Lauren Stara:Can you just clarify for our librarians what you mean by the owner because that's jargon, believe it or not.
John Sayre-Scibona:That's true. Early on, there was generally sort of two entities that we worked with. In Newburyport, they had a building committee, a small group of invested individuals as well as the director, and that was the people that we interfaced with. But as things moved forward, and these jobs got more complex, bigger. The state also in the middle of it legislated that any project over $1.5 million in public funds had to be assisted or managed by an owners' project manager, separate entity from the town. So then you actually got into these standing building committees. And that was their job, their fiduciary responsibility to manage these projects. And sometimes, unfortunately, it sort of cuts out the stakeholder of the library side of the project because their concern is getting the project built as expeditiously and as inexpensively as possible, staying within the budget, which is obviously the whole main drill of our work, but at times at the unfortunate exclusion of the library director and their own sort of building committee and trustees. So one of the things when these permanent building committees came into play, we wanted to make sure that the library and the library trustees also had a voice at the table so that everyone is represented, because at the end of the day, the library side of the project actually has to answer to the MBLC, because of how the grants work, right? There's certain requirements that have to be fulfilled for the grant, and we want to make sure that the program in particular is honored to meet those expectations with the state mandates based on the approval of their grant. So weaving all these parties together is, I guess, the euphemism is corralling cats, lassoing cats. I think sometimes we've had a pretty big lasso.
Andrea Bunker:And I also think the trustees are often the ones that are operating and maintaining the building, once it's completed, too, so having their voice for the ongoing maintenance and operation of that facility is important.
John Sayre-Scibona:Absolutely.
Andrea Bunker:Library Director, obviously, and the trustees.
John Sayre-Scibona:Right. They also have sort of the first line of fundraising as well, right. So a lot of these projects, as they come into being, the project budget is set. You think you have all your ducks in a row, and then the bids come in a little higher than expected. There's some unforeseen conditions that come along. And so the trustees are there sort of almost as a backstop to help support the rest of the project, whether trustees or friends or foundations, they are linchpin to these projects, a lot falls back on them, if the funding's short for one reason or another. Because you always hear on every project, "We're not going back to the town for more money." Well, that's true, because the town already set that limit. So there's a stop gap that needs to happen. And it does fall upon those other support groups, the trustees, foundations, and friends, to kind of support the rest of the project as it moves forward.
Andrea Bunker:And I think when you mentioned corralling all the different groups together, I think we can touch upon that a little bit more in detail in a little bit. But that is one of your roles as an OPM. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more about that role and the responsibilities. And there are OPMs that are a part of small firms. We have a lot of firms also that are much larger. You mentioned your background in carpentry and as a project manager and then getting into the owners' project manager realm. Is that a common background for an OPM? Or are there people graduating from school with certificates in this that may have never worked in construction before? You know, what kind of experience do they bring to a project and how does that inform their role on a job?
John Sayre-Scibona:So as far as background for an OPM, as I mentioned, I did come from a construction background. As a carpenter you interface actually with a lot of other things. And some of the early projects, it was more full range starting from the ground up with footings foundations, framing, all the way up through. Then I ended up specializing in more finished side of things. So when the state required these projects to have an OPM at level $1.5 million, they also set requirements that you could be an OPM if you were a registered architect, but also you could have seven years experience in construction and/or project management. You know, now after say my 28th year of being an OPM, I'm certainly well versed in qualified under that seven year mandate. But it does seem a lot of the OPMs are coming into the field as architects and/or just in general construction. And they could actually be project managers for construction companies, and then slide into the OPM world.
Andrea Bunker:So pretty much if you're getting an owners' project manager, they are someone who has experience.
John Sayre-Scibona:And as you and I have discussed, it's not just having the experience in construction or design. It's also, I feel, more an experience in managing people, right? I've kiddingly said, I've used the skills from my wife's social work and elementary school experience to manage my projects. And it's all about keeping everyone in line, working with the same goal, which is this amazing civic project, with an outcome that is more globally to the local environs, amazing for their citizens. So my role is making sure that all players are moving towards a positive outcome for the project where we'd all step back and say, "Wow, that was a great experience. Look at this amazing building and look at the reaction that the citizens of that town are enjoying that outcome." So the communication component of our job is huge. If that falls apart, there's where the problems end up becoming an issue with moving the project forward.
Andrea Bunker:And that's kind of a moving target the whole entire time, right? It's not like you can forecast when you're going to have to deal with that particular part of the job.
John Sayre-Scibona:Right. So I found I can help cajole with humor and positive steps to keep everyone moving forward to that end result for these projects.
Andrea Bunker:That human interaction piece, keeping all of the groups aligned with the same goal in mind is probably the largest overarching responsibility that you have on the job. But then there are a lot of other pieces to it. With our program. In particular, we do require that the OPM is on board before an architect is selected as per the state requirements. And I was wondering if you could talk through the process of one of these construction projects and your responsibilities within each phase.
John Sayre-Scibona:Sure. At the onset, the MBLC requires an OPM. So what triggers that is that the city or town, the entity in charge of their projects, issue an RFQ, request for qualifications, various requirements included within that, and I'm sure you may have a boilerplate template for those RFQs. But basically lists of experience, the staff, your understanding of the project, past projects, references. It's sort of a job reference, right? But it's a little bit more entailed than that. And so from there, then the committee will go through anywhere between three and 10 RFQ packages. They tend to narrow it down to three. The times I found, when we narrow down to four on the architectural side, it's a little bit much, you really want to drill down to three. So that would be my suggestion with the OPMs as well, you get down to three selected firms, you interview them in person. Unfortunately, because of the COVID, the Zoom is not as efficient as meeting in person. So you select from those three firms. And generally, and obviously this refers more to an architect, but you want someone that you feel you can work with that will be by your side, support the process, support the players on the town side, because you're the owners' project manager, and that you feel they will listen to you and support you and be very communicative with players on the owner side of the table. So from there, the OPM generally generates another RFQ for designer selection. And, again, you winnow it down to three, interview them again. Generally most that are applying can do the project. It really is sort of what you're looking for flavor, what the town is looking for. Also communication between the players. We've had architects that the principal does all the talking and the people that you're actually going to work alongside on a day to day barely say a word. So you don't really have a feel for that. So you want to understand the team as they present them and really hear from the people that you are going to communicate with on a daily basis, because that's the key. If the principal has a good show, they have a good rap, but you want to be able to have a same comfort level with actually the people below them that will be doing the heavy lifting on the project. So from there, the architect, as you move through the design process, generally it's conceptual, moves to schematic, design development, and then construction documents. With the MBLC grant, it's slightly different. You want sort of a hybrid of conceptual and also schematic. So unfortunately, at each level with the AIA, they have a checklist that we always used to assess the completeness of the drawings. So the conceptual to schematic for the MBLC is, as I said, sort of a hybrid, and it does not stop the project from having to go through a full schematic design, because what's required in full schematic is a lot more amped up than what the MBLC's conceptual/schematic. So anyway, just trying to have the drawings much more filled out at schematic level. And then with that
Andrea Bunker:We have had that conversation with the architects talking about ours is much more conceptual, and that there just hasn't been in alignment with terminology. So that will change moving forward.
John Sayre-Scibona:That's good, because we've actually restarted projects that have gotten a grant. And then they think,"Well, we've already done the schematic." It was like, "Well, not quite, you're more kind of in between." But anyway, whatever level you'd call that, early on with a MBLC grant round, an estimate is generated. So conceptual designs, basically floor plans, some elevations, addressing the program to the building and making sure that that program actually fits both square footage and flow of staff and patrons. And that's actually a good thing that you guys weigh in on because you've experienced these projects, both intimately, and also a grander scale with all libraries you've seen, but your input is invaluable to this process and It better informs the final design as the project moves forward. So the schematic/conceptual there's an estimate. And then with the estimate, comes together, having to do with the construction costs most specifically. And then the OPM assists the team with the soft costs, which is the architectural fees, the OPM's fees, surveyors, there's a hazmat issues put in numbers for hazmat, furnishings, pretty much everything that goes into a library construction project. And there's quite a few, I mean, our budget must have at least maybe 50 line items to capture every cost event we can anticipate, from material testing, which is testing of the concrete compaction and the concrete breaks, compaction of soils, that's a material testing component, as well as the FF and E components. So in this budget development, we want to capture
the FF and E:fixtures, furnishings and equipment, which obviously is your loose furniture, your stacks, and the computer and technology components, your AV components. So there's quite a few different moving parts that put this project budget together. And then you track it, you track those expenditures, you track how they come in, how they're bid out, you also in those project budgets, you include contingencies, and we can talk about there's a contingency during design, there's also the construction contingency. So in design, at each phase of design, there is what's called a design contingency. And it usually starts out about 10 to 12% at the schematic level, and it winnows down to zero when your construction costs are completed. So at each phase, this contingency is reduced. And basically that contingency is what the architects sort of work against. So as the project gets built, that contingency allows the architects to flesh out the details more with the finishes. And that's basically what it's used for. A lot of clients think that that's their project contingency, we really make sure that the design contingency never hits the project budget, it's already wrapped up into the estimate. So then the regular project contingency generally we hold 10% for the whole project, some projects break it out separately for construction and soft costs. But our rule of thumb is carry 10% across the board for the entire project. And those contingencies basically are for changes to the project as they move on. And during construction they cover design coordination issues, uncovered conditions, or owner enhancements. And we want to make sure that owner enhancements are in the project ahead of time without blowing the budget, but they do come up as the project moves forward through construction.
Andrea Bunker:Now do you find that budgeting differs between types of delivery methods for projects? So, if you have CM at Risk versus Design Bid Build is the way that you put together a budget a little bit different for each?
John Sayre-Scibona:So there are two types of construction delivery methods, right? There is the Design Bid Build, which is what normally everyone thinks of. You design a project, you bid the project, and then you build the project. And that's in some respects the easiest and what normally is done. On special circumstances when project size, certain conditions with historic structure, there's a lot of unknowns, or the project budget is quite high, or the construction budget is quite high, you bring on what's called a CM at Risk. So the state calls for chapter 149 A, which is the CM at Risk part, the CM is brought in the same sort of way as the architects through a RFQ. And then we winnow those down into a RFP where they put together a financial package looking at what their fees and general conditions costs are. So on a CM at risk, the CM, construction manager, has his own contingency to use for items that he didn't pick up in the drawing as they moved along. And they're quite protective of those and it's up to the owners, project manager and the ark to say, well, that's in the drawings, you should have anticipated that, your expenditure that contingency is not allowed, or no, we see that that's an uncovered condition that you couldn't have anticipated, so your contingency can go against that as well. But still, we suggest to the owner, the city/town, that they still continue to carry their own contingency besides the CM's contingency. It's a separate pocket of money to expend against those uncovered conditions as the project moves along.
Lauren Stara:You said that contingency is used for uncovered conditions and owner enhancements and I don't think that many librarians are going to understand what owner enhancements means. Basically, any changes that the owner meaning the town or the library staff decide they want to incorporate after the drawings have been bid.
Andrea Bunker:Exactly.
John Sayre-Scibona:Right.
Lauren Stara:And that even means attempts to reduce cost as well as increase costs, right? I mean, those are owner enhancements. If you change something to a less expensive assembly or material, that's still a change order, right?
John Sayre-Scibona:Yeah, but that savings goes back into the contingency. So it is a deduct change, it goes back into the project contingency
Andrea Bunker:That brings up something else, because while you're going through these phases, and I have to say that my main experience is with CM at Risk and not Design Bid Build, because that was the delivery method for Woburn. So throughout the entire process, there were these reconciliation meetings between the architect's estimator and the construction manager's estimating team. All of it was in the name of value engineering, which is one of those phrases that we have mentioned before, where you are trying to find the most reasonable places where you can cut cost to make your project conform to the budget a little bit better.
John Sayre-Scibona:During the design process when estimates are completed, at the end of or in the middle of each phase, there is an opportunity to make changes to that current design, whether an enhancement to the building itself or look for items to save money and reduce the estimate. As you reduce that estimate, the hope is you also reduce your contingency because it's percentage based. Now owner enhancements are the "like to haves" or "we should have had this in the design", and sometimes those actually come up during construction.
Andrea Bunker:When we were in construction, one of the trends that started to gain more traction was a library of things collection. And we hadn't accounted for that during the design phase. And we needed to figure out some way in which we could display larger items for our public to be able to know what was available, and also to house multiple library of things items so that we could have them close by to the circulation desk. So what we ended up doing was having an owner enhancement of a closet that was built near the children's room circulation desk, so that it could either act as display or as a storage unit for those actual library of things items. So it's hard because there are trends in the field. And there are things that gain traction. And these projects take so long to come to fruition that things evolve. And then you don't always capture it within that design phase. And it might become something that, before it's too late, before the building is fully built, that you want to get it in there. So you might have an owner enhancement such as that.
John Sayre-Scibona:Yes, that's actually a very good example. We actually have found where certain communities have decided to go ahead and put a monitor in each of the study rooms, whereas it wasn't in the original program and change of technology, change of use. They want to be more globally accessible in certain areas, whether it goes into the meeting room, which has been a switch from a motorized screen to large monitors like they had done in Millis, I believe they put a very large monitor in there. And that was actually one of the first projects that we actually had that kind of technology in the main meeting room. And now some of the study spaces are becoming more technology advanced than they had been. Same with whiteboards even for group study.
Andrea Bunker:And that's an area where you can't anticipate what's coming next for technology. So you can plan as much as you can. And then, you know, six months later, there may be this brand new thing that you're like, "oh, we need this. And we need to put it in that project", and it hadn't been planned for. So it is an expense that then gets taken out of that contingency when you're in the construction phase.
John Sayre-Scibona:Absolutely.
Andrea Bunker:So you have the design process, and you're involved in that in the budgeting of that throughout. What are some of the other responsibilities that you have either through that process or as you move into construction? Let's talk about the bid phase first, right after design.
John Sayre-Scibona:So after the design is complete, and the entities in charge of the library project, whether it be a building committee, trustees, basically they approve those drawings for bidding. And we always want to make sure that they have one last look. In fact, speaking of Millis, we actually went to the architect's office and did a page turn and that effort was instigated by the building committee. We sat down with the architect and actually did a page by page review of each drawing so that the owner understood what they were buying, and they could ask questions about what's in those documents. It was an intense but very helpful process. Tried to do that on a number of projects to make sure the owner understands what they are buying when the project goes out to bid. Instead of eight months into the project, you get a sleeve pulled and you hear,"Hey, John, what's this?" And you have to explain what it is because it's what they bought in that design and contractually with the contractor. So the bid process on 149 delivery method, which is a Design Bid Build is that the drawings are completed. They are then posted at the central register. Usually they have to be posted by a Thursday. And the drawings need to be ready to go out the following Wednesday. And that process is a six week process so that the contractor and the file sub-bidders, which we'll talk about have four weeks for the sub-bidders, and then two more weeks for the general contractors to review the drawings and put their bids together. So the file sub bids are all the different trades, from roofing to tile to insulation to all the major mechanicals, they call it MEP, which is mechanical, electrical, and plumbing, sprinkler, elevator, all these different trades all put in their bids to a central location. Now we do this all online. It used to be you would receive every one of those packages at Townhall. And actually we did it for quite a while. So you have a big bid opening event, all these file sub-bidders, and you would have anywhere between, although elevators you're lucky to get two, but you could get 12 sprinkler packages. So every one of those packages had to be individually opened, reviewed for completeness. There's a lot of documents required in the package. But obviously the main important one is their number. And those numbers would all be tabulated and then submitted by trade and submitted to the general contractors to formulate their own bids, and they would sort of cherry pick who they'd want to work with. And generally they would go with the low bid, which is per state law, qualified low bid. So then the general contractor would take those numbers, put his bid together, because he covers everything generally from carpentry and the civil and site work, landscaping, those are not file sub bids, like paving exterior siding, whether it be brick or wood. The general contractor would pick up those trades, they are not a file sub bid, and he would package that up to his final bid and submit it. Those bids would be reviewed for the lowest qualified bidder along with their qualifications to come up with a final low bid recommendation by the project team to the owner. So now this whole process is actually done online. We use a firm actually out of Newburyport called Project Dog, which is made our lives so much more easy. Whereas the bid process would take a couple hours to complete at the file sub-bid levels, we get the results back 15 minutes after the bids close. They check all the documents for completeness and tally it with links to the company's to their bids. Every bid document is packaged up to be easily accessible online. We've done that quite a few times and saves enormous amount of time and effort on the tabulation side of things. And so then we can do a quick flash to see where we are against the construction estimate, then those bids simultaneously come to us they also go to the general contractors after we reviewed make sure everyone has a qualified bid. And they take those bids themselves, the general contractors, as I said, formulate their own bid in the same process. They submit it back to Project Dog, and they also list who file sub-biddes are that formed their bids and come up with his final number for a qualified low bid general contractor. And then from there we go to general contract which that contract is actually included in the bid documents, so there's no questions when the numbers come in, we can move right into general contract. It usually takes a couple of weeks for the general contractor to have all their documents in line, their insurance, any extraneous issues that need to be addressed before moving to contract. And then the two entities move into a formal contract and with that the architect issues a notice to proceed that also includes an end date. The work begins.
Andrea Bunker:And this is where I think for our projects, because we were talking about including the library director and the trustees in the process with the building committee and hiring the OPM and hiring the architect and going through design. The contracts, though, are normally signed with a municipality. And if you're in a county system, if you're listening from further away than New England you may have a county government that is entering into a contract with a construction firm, but our contract is actually with the municipality, and the construction contracts are with the municipality as are the architect's and OPM's. So it becomes an interesting situation because there are so many entities involved in the building project. So that contract is going to be with the construction firm and the municipality, not with the library itself unless the library is doing it on its own if they are completely separate from the municipality, but in our program, it's the municipality, just to clarify.
John Sayre-Scibona:Right that is true, the contracts are signed by the municipality.
Andrea Bunker:It's kind of beneficial to though because when you think about the risk with construction and insurance and all of that to have the leverage of the city or town as the one who is signing a contract. They have counsel and insurance and all of that. So there are reasons why, but, and also we have to deliver our funding to the municipality. We can't give it to the library.
John Sayre-Scibona:Correct.
Andrea Bunker:So I didn't mean to get us off course there, but in the signing of that contract, and then you move into the breaking of ground and starting that construction project. And so if you've gone through design, and you've bid it, and that's what the budget is, how do you track financially and make sure it stays on schedule? What are some of the responsibilities in that particular phase?
John Sayre-Scibona:So your job is now moving into construction. The architect has issued notice to proceed. You have a final construction number, its final numbers are inserted to a final project budget, and we track those expenditures throughout the project. During the course of construction, on a monthly basis, the contractor submits a requisition. A week ahead of time, we ask for what's called a pencil requisition where basically a draft the architect, and the OPM and site rep review for percentage complete. What we don't want to have a contractor be what we call upside down with the owner. We don't want them to be ahead of percentage complete when they haven't actually finished the work for that line item. And those requisitions could be sometimes at least 10 pages because it breaks down nearly every task of the project by trade and then by task within each trade. So we really look at the work completed that month, percentage complete and pay as closely as possible against that. There are periods of time during the course of the project where the contractor has material that is not to be stored on site. So it'll be stored off site. We ask for documentation of what that is, the location that it is, right of access, and right of ownership as well for stored materials. And that's actually a separate line item in the requisition for tracking materials off site. It allows the contractor to be paid for material ahead of time. And with the current conditions, you actually support that because of supply chain issues. You want to get as much material in the owner's hand and paid for ahead of time making sure that you obviously have right of access. If there's an issue as well as lien waivers against that material.
Andrea Bunker:Especially because they're not even holding quotes for that long anymore.
John Sayre-Scibona:Yeah, it's almost two weeks these days on some bids. So this is a difficult bid climate, I have to say.
Andrea Bunker:I also wanted to say just because when we were talking about that budgeting piece and making sure that they have upfront for material, something unique to library projects in the budget is temporary space. So when you're in that design phase, you're also probably looking for temporary quarters to house your library and to operate out of. That moving expense and the temporary quarters are usually part of that budget, too.
John Sayre-Scibona:Temporary locations is a very concerning budget item, because it's always surprising how much rent costs when a library never had to pay rent, right? So now they have to pay rent, they also have to pay all the utilities, the moving costs both in and out. A lot of these temp locations can't handle the full collection or the historic artwork, so you have offsite storage somewhere else, and the cost of that has increased and has to be budgeted for. I have yet to be able to nail the cost of storage and for temp facilities right out of the box. And it's always difficult to find, especially for the smaller communities, a temp location where you can move a library to. Some have been right across the street. Some have been an old location. In Milton, they had a branch library, they moved all their services into that location while the construction was being done. That's a big nut, that process. It's a good point.
Andrea Bunker:You never know what's going to be available at the time when you move. I mean, I think we started looking a year before, and we kind of lucked out with a donation of space. So sometimes that can happen, too. But we had to pay up front and then it was donated back. It was a very interesting process for tax reasons for that particular company. But it does really differ for every community in terms of where they can be and how much space they can get. So in construction, you're not there every day, but you usually have someone from your firm there as eyes on the ground making sure everything was moving smoothly, documenting what was happening every day, taking pictures.
John Sayre-Scibona:So during construction Design Technique provided on site representation. We would call them their site rep, the eyes and ears for the owner during construction. Depending on the size and the delivery method of the project, we would have someone on full time or halftime, and they would be there during any special events, like a large concrete pour. They're really there to help mitigate some neighborhood impacts, construction impact, but also sort of making sure looking over the contractor's shoulder. They can really ensure that they're following plans and specs, but they certainly have a forceful influence on follow up and oversight. We can't direct work, we cannot stop work, you can only inform the contractor that from what their understanding of the project documents, they're not following plans and specs. they inform the architect. The architect then makes arrangements to help mitigate whatever might have transpired, whether to tell the contractor you basically have to follow these documents as stated in the contract. Generally, what the site rep would do is generate a daily report, some simple things about who's on site, weather, but also, we looked at it as sort of a first punch list of the project. He would track any issues that come up during construction, put it on as reports. He's notified the contractor and the architect of what those issues are, and then we look to have those cleaned up by the time the project is over or cleaned up before those issues, or items, get covered up by further construction process. We also have the site rep to really be hands on on that requisition review as well, because he knows what has transpired. And then with that, the photo documentation actually has come in handy quite a few times on follow up as the work developed and making sure that if we're asked such date, what transpired, we can pull out those photographs and hopefully help document if there's a situation arisen during that time.
Andrea Bunker:It's unfortunate that those do arise, that you have to go back and prove something was a certain way. Right? But it does happen.
John Sayre-Scibona:Yeah.
Andrea Bunker:Having that documentation is crucial in that situation.
John Sayre-Scibona:Right. At the end of the day, it's all to protect the owner as best as possible. We want to make sure the contractor is following the plans and specifications and follow up with the quality control is there as well.
Andrea Bunker:So construction happens. And then part of construction at the very end is punch list, which is making sure that all those little fiddly little things at the end are taken care of, or I'm sure now with supply chain issues, they're bigger than fiddly things, trying to make sure that everything is completed, because you may not be getting certain materials all at once or getting the shipments as you anticipated. So punchless can come after certificate of occupancy, too. So what's your responsibility and role in that part of the process?
John Sayre-Scibona:So while the construction is starting to wind up, the contractor is pushing for substantial completion and certificate of occupancy. Substantial completion means that they basically hand the responsibility of the building back to the owner. And with that, all their insurances are dropped, the municipal entity picks up on the insurance and has command and control of the library. And with that is the certificate of substantial completion, which really is mostly generated around life safety, that all the exits are accessible, all the emergency components of the project, whether it be an elevator with the emergency telephone is set, fire alarms are working properly. And this certificate of occupancy then allows the public to actually come in and use the building. Generally with a certificate of occupancy, what in reality happens is it allows the staff to come in and actually start setting up the library proper.
Lauren Stara:That's becoming more and more common, John, that a project gets a temporary CO, which allows the staff to come in, but they don't get their permanent CO until sometimes weeks later.
John Sayre-Scibona:Yes, that's true. Right. So during this period, though, there's a punch list phase. The norm is the general contractor produces their own punch list. They give that to the architect. The architect uses that and then adds their own items for punch list, whether it be a nicked wall, an incomplete door closer, lights not operating as designed. Part of the punch list is also owner's manual, part of the closeout package. There's a variety of things hit this punch list. Some are easy, low hanging fruit, some take a little bit of time.
Andrea Bunker:Is Commissioning a part of that? I think that's true for both small projects and large
John Sayre-Scibona:Commissioning is included in that, yep. So the punch list can be arduous, frankly. They can really drag on for a while. You want to make sure that the contractor, there's funds withheld to make sure that they come back. Obviously, you're not releasing final payment, but you don't want to thin up the requisition so that there's not much money on the table for these guys to return. You know, they're onto the next job. That's really to be frank, they're making money on the next big job. So punch lists are not what they're paying attention to, because there's no money to be made on the punch list level, but the owner needs those component of the project completed. In order to have a fully functioning project, they have to close those out. projects. It doesn't matter what scale it is. Yes.
Andrea Bunker:I think it's just kind of the norm for whatever reason to have to withhold to get it done.
Lauren Stara:That's also true for some architects and some OPMs. Not you, John. But some OPM firms, they're off to the next big projects and getting them back to complete the little details and especially the final reporting that we require for our grants can be really hard. So you need to withhold money until all of that stuff is done.
John Sayre-Scibona:No, absolutely. Not to be trite, but money makes the world go round. So we do want to hold everyone's toes to the fire to make sure that they are completing those tasks. And as you said, Lauren, one of the tasks that the OPM does is actually help the library director fill out those monthly reports, right? It's not that hard. Those monthly reports basically sort of as state the progress of the work. At times, they've used our monthly reports to be attached to their reporting, but also on the financial side, and tracking of what's been expended of the MBLC funds, the town funds, and sort of total spent to date.
Andrea Bunker:I know as a library director who worked directly with you, having someone to fill out that financial piece was so important, because you're dealing with different accounts. You're dealing with a sheltered account for the MBLC money, then you have the municipal money, so and accounting for what work was done with which money is really a task and a half.
John Sayre-Scibona:I mean, you look at the MBLC grant, there's eligible and ineligible costs, and a library director has never been through the construction process, and to be able to work to understand what's eligible and what isn't eligible. And frankly, even, you know, one of the last jobs, I went back to you guys, "hey, by the way, does XYZ count is eligible," just to make sure we're covered amd the items are allotted. And I guess that would come up in the final report, right? We have the final requisition, and we're starting to dive into that and splinter off what's eligible and what isn't eligible for the MBLC's final report. Pretty paramount to the process because the municipality gets paid their final payment, right, on a complete project. So it's interesting actually, that of the 12 Libraries I've worked on, only one city didn't go through the MBLC process. It certainly made everyone's life, I wouldn't say easier, but I would say that the oversight that you all provide on the design probably, I think is paramount in the process of the design work done by the architect. Your insights to the flow of the patrons, the flow of the staff, and arrangement of the collection are a very valuable component to what you all bring to the table.
Andrea Bunker:Thank you for saying that, and I think we do offer those services to every library that's in the Commonwealth, whether they're going through our program or not, it just depends on whether or not they reach out to us and share those designs with us. Because we're happy to give our two cents on anything that we see. You know, there are many architects that are out there in the Commonwealth and beyond who have worked on several library projects, but they've never worked in an actual library. So that perspective of being able to see what workflow is, what's efficient, what makes sense for the user experience and the staff experience I think is crucial to making a building that works well. And just like you bring your expertise to the table and shepherd library directors through the process, because they may have managed projects of different scopes and scales, but nothing like this before. So bringing that expertise to the table and that knowledge, I think is important. So we all work together to create buildings that serve the communities for years, which is kind of a cool thing to say that we do. I mean, amazing jobs. So with any of those parts of the process, do you find that you have to be more involved in one phase or another depending on the delivery method?
John Sayre-Scibona:Well, I think delivery method wise, we're still performing the same tasks, right. So on the CM at Risk, the 149 A, the contractor is actually working sort of hand in hand with the architect as the drawings are developed for mostly for constructability and budgeting. And there is a price to pay because there's a fee that for pre construction that the city/ town has to pay the general contractor for pre construction. But on some of these complex jobs, it's actually well worth it. Some that are brand new, building ground up the CM at Risk model may not be as beneficial. I know for Woburn, it was a very complex, old building. There's a lot of forensics getting into the original building, opening walls, opening floors to understand the construction of the existing building was very important. And even with that there were things that were uncovered as the project developed. I mean, who knew that the side of the building, that old stone structure, was pulling away from existing substructure? And those kinds of things happen. You couldn't predict that one early on.
Andrea Bunker:And without the borings, we wouldn't have known what comprised that structure.
John Sayre-Scibona:Absolutely. What was in that. So I think that fact finding mission of understanding what's happening with your existing building, because those drawings that were done by H. H. Richardson did not have details. They don't detail materials. It's nothing like what you see now. It was just basically giving it to Mason's and saying, "build this from this sketch." It kind of reminds me of our inside joke about subcontractors that say, "Well, that's what we did on the last job." Like that might be the easiest set of specifications, do what you did on the last job. So who knows what that'll turn out to be, but but I think as far as on the project management side, tracking the schedule, making sure the architect is staying on their design schedule, working with the various entities within the town, like we've discussed, the director who has to basically honor their program, making sure that the design honors that same program, working up the project budget, and then moving into construction. I mean, there's a lot of moving parts. Sometimes you step back and say, "Well, that was a lot. But it was certainly obviously well worth it." So for the delivery method wise, a lot of the same tasks, they're all the same for each one, it's just during the design, it's a little bit different, a little different during construction, as well, but it's still tracking schedule, tracking budget, and tracking quality control. So at the end of the day, the municipality feels that they got value for their money and saying, "Wow, we spent whatever million dollars on this?" You want to make sure that they got the value out of the process at the end of the day.
Andrea Bunker:That's the end goal. And that's what the municipalities get from working with an owners' project manager, right, because you are the eyes and ears and maintaining that budget, making sure that schedule is being adhered to as much as you can, outside of exterior influences that may be pushing things back because of supply. But what should library directors and library building project stakeholders know about working with an OPM? So what conversation should they be having? What activities should they be working on together? Anything that we haven't touched upon yet that you think is important for them to know?
John Sayre-Scibona:Well, I mean, that's a really good question. Is to make sure that the communication chain is intact, and that the OPM is pretty much copied on all communications as much as possible or as realistically as possible. And there's some things that obviously, between the trustees, and the director, the foundation, that's their internal workings, but anything related to the project itself, whether it be design or programming, anything that they feel that needs to be communicated to the architect or is communicated with the architect without the OPM and somehow it gets dropped, then we're kind of at a loss like,"well, I didn't know that was going on." And so we want to make sure that that sort of three legged table during the design, or stool, with the owners' project manager, the architect, and the stakeholder, vis-a-vis the director, that process intact, we see everything that's going back and forth between those players, because if there's a request made, and it changes the budget, we don't understand why the budget got changed. So we want to make sure that things aren't being asked of the architect that we can't sort of either help, control is not quite right word for it, but we want to make sure that we're cognizant of some of these changes being made during the design process, because if they have cost impacts, we're the guys that get pushed back on say, "hey, how come this is costing so much? Like, well, I don't know. And it's suddenly like, well, there was a design change made we weren't aware of." So we have to be able to substantiate where all these costs are going during the design phase, in particular. During construction, not so much. It's just we want to make sure that everybody is going to get the end results that they feel they're paying for, right contractually, so.
Andrea Bunker:There are those moments and we had them definitely in Woburn, where there were things that came up during construction that did necessitate design changes, pretty significant design changes in some areas that then hit the contingency pretty hard. But we all had to come to some sort of compromise because we had to figure out how to work around the issue, design so that it didn't affect efficiency and workflow as much, and make sure that it was a stable, durable solution for attaching those two buildings and making sure that they worked well together, the addition and the existing. And so it is interesting that in construction, so you can think that you're done. it's not just an owner enhancement that may come after, it's when you encounter difficult conditions in the field that may necessitate those changes, too. But then all the teams working together may see it a different way, and may have different solutions. But they all have to understand how those solutions impact the overall operation and function of that space in that building.
John Sayre-Scibona:Definitely, that's a solid point. I mean, as we said, one of the items in the contingency is for uncovered conditions, and that's sort of the scariest part with any building project, even with borings, even with as much investigation as you can, you know, provide during the course of design, things do come up, and you want to be able to have a fund to tap that.
Andrea Bunker:and bridging off of that working together piece. You mentioned before that it was like corralling cats. Sometimes, and there are so many actual and perceived bosses on a job when you're dealing with a public library in particular, because of the structures that are involved, you know, you may have the trustees owning the building, and then leasing that the municipality for the time of the construction project or transferring that ownership during that particular time only for it to come back to the trustees after and then you have the municipality and obviously the library administration, which is connected with the trustees and the municipality, and then the community itself, who are expecting something of their public building. From your experience, and you mentioned going off of your wife, Beth's, social worker background and elementary educator background for learning how to deal with some of these things. But are there any tips or tricks for getting all of these entities to work together well, toward the common goal of having a successful project?
John Sayre-Scibona:Uh, humor. I think these projects honestly are supposed to be fun. That's my philosophy. And the end result for a community is to be a positive outcome. So you know, all these projects, they're developed on need, right? Either at the trustee or director level, they define the need and work with someone to program that need to turn it into an actual program of space. And from there, the space gets put on the drawings and from the drawings, they get developed into real construction documents. And you have the municipality, obviously worried about the financial component, but it's really about an education on how libraries work. And having the director be a direct stakeholder in the conversations with the building committees to have them understand what is needed to make these libraries work. And as we talked about earlier, where, you know, technology changes mid course, and you want to try to be as nimble as you can and not be too locked in. It really boils down to communication. and everyone feeling this is a great civic project. And the outcome can only benefit everyone that they represent whether they elementary age, the elderly, the guy looking for a job, a woman trying to find resources for their own work. I think it's a civic pride process that I always liked. For me, I think, I know Richard Bergman. CBT likes to talk about the public education, democratic component of a library. I don't think he actually coined that. But no public library is a very democratic building the most in the country. So that program has to address all those components. But as far as having teams work together, they need to understand the common good is the end result here. And the outcome can only reflect positively on all of them, including contractor, including the OPM, the architect, and if we keep that instilled in the process, like this is a good thing, we're going to have a great building, we're gonna have a magnet for our youth, for our elderly, for working parents. programming for the early ed side is paramount to our whole education process. So, I mean I do a whole big rant on that, that's probably a different podcast. But everyone needs to understand that the end game here is to serve the public with the best possible product with the best possible outcome without bleeding the coffers dry. There is a happy medium that everyone needs to hear. There's not an endless fund to these projects. They have a fixed budget, and you have to stick to it. And look for ways either to save money or generate money along the way. But it's always a good feeling all the players when you hit that ribbon cutting, and say, "Wow, this was worth it." And that's the best part when you walk away and say"yes, all that effort was worth it."
Andrea Bunker:What are some common mistakes you've witnessed or experienced in regard to communication or vision without necessarily calling out a specific project. But are there things that you think are cautionary tales for our listeners?
John Sayre-Scibona:Sometimes it's like, I mean, honestly, you address it and you go on like,"Darn it, you should have told me" kind of stuff. I think I kind of talked about that with communication. I think that's the trick is if we don't know some things, and not that we should know everything, but there have been times when the architect and the librarian have had conversations, and suddenly things are in the drawings. It was like, "Well, how did that get in there?" "Well, the director called me up and she wanted XYZ," like, "Well, did you talk about how much it was gonna cost?" "Well, no, she said she wanted it." Like, "No, that's when you and I need to be on the phone with the director to talk about it." Because like we said, there are ways of mitigating some cost impact, right? So we know ahead of time, they don't just get in the drawings, wholesale. They get in the drawings if it's some facet, honoring what the thoughts are on what is requested. But I believe the most important part is if the architect, the OPM, and the director, in particular, and I'm not throwing anybody under the bus, are lockstep with making sure that the program is honored and can be defended, as well, then it's worth the expense. It's worth the, you know, minor monetary hit, to make sure that the library is built, that will service the public at the end of the day.
Andrea Bunker:I can also say, you know, not just in the design phase when you're talking with the architects, but there was that one situation where I was in the building when it was being restored, and they had taken out shelving out of an area that was becoming a different area in the existing building. When I looked at the magazine shelving, I realized it wasn't enough. So I said, "Can you please salvage some more of those, because we need additional shelves?" when they were working. And our superintendent said, "We need to know if you tell them that because that is a cost implication." So it can happen just when you're walking through the building, when you're on a site visit. You know, there are all those things that you have to think about when you're a library director or trustee. Because if you're telling someone who sees you as one of the owners, even though you're not necessarily the one holding the purse strings, they may go ahead and do something for you that wasn't in the scope of the project.
John Sayre-Scibona:Right. One of the concerns that we have on the owners' project management side is who directs work, right? Who is actually directing the contractor, because the contractor will listen to anyone, they think everyone's the boss.
Andrea Bunker:Right.
John Sayre-Scibona:When in fact, actually, it's the architect, because they are signature to the contract with the contractor. Their individual contracts revolve around sort of the same orbit. And so we want to make sure that any changes are being made are being directed by the architect. They get vetted with the owner and the OPM, but direction is only by the architect. And we actually have had issues where someone not on the design team, gives direction. And I've heard that OPMs actually have given direction on library projects and end up costing the project additional funds, they say "Hey, the OPM told me to do this." Well, that's not their role. And quite honestly, my liability insurance would hold my toes to the fire if I directed work or whatever. So it's really clear that the communication to the contractor needs to come from the architect. And everyone has a good idea once they see things as they come to fruition, but it's really only the architect that can make that direction, put that direction in writing, put it together as a construction change directive or a supplemental direction to the contractor that all has to be vetted on the financial level as well as what the actual change
Lauren Stara:Can I ask a question off of that, John? This might be. may or may not end up in the podcast. But let's say the situation that Andrea was in where she saw them removing shelving, it was about to possibly be destroyed, thrown in the dumpster, but it could be a value, what would be her recommended course of action at that point?
John Sayre-Scibona:I think it's twofold. I think an issue would come up during construction where a director sees a particular situation and says,"Hey, timeout, we need to talk about disposal of existing materials," that she would simultaneously essentially go to the OPM and to the architect and say, "Hey, I have a concern here. I don't know the ramifications of it." They wouldn't think of ramifications it would cost more but it would be up to the architect to talk to the contractor say, "Okay, this is a situation, let's talk about if there's an avenue to one, not make it cost money, but also salvage whatever that might be." But it needs to be put out there really quickly to the architect to help mitigate any cost impacts or stoppage of things, materials being tossed in a dumpster. I don't remember that situation, particularly Andrea, but I can't imagine it costing that much more money.
Andrea Bunker:No, it wasn't that much more money. It was more the
John Sayre-Scibona:It was Tom.
Andrea Bunker:the contractor telling me this could be the implication of it, which I honestly didn't even think about at the moment. I was just thinking about, I need more shelving for my periodical collection.
John Sayre-Scibona:Right. And so this is where I would cajole the contractor to say, "Hey, look, this is not that big a deal. Let's just set this aside and put it down in area X and set it aside, we'll figure it out later," that kind of thing. So.
Andrea Bunker:It was my fear, though, that it was going to like end up somewhere where we would never be able to get it again.
John Sayre-Scibona:Sure. Right.
Andrea Bunker:So do you have any other guidance for working with those entities if you are a library building project stakeholder? About working with an architect or working with a construction company? You know, obviously, that communication piece, but is there any other guidance there? Are there any other pieces of advice that you have, in general, for our listeners, about the OPM's role, working with an OPM, or just in general, on embarking on and completing a library building project?
John Sayre-Scibona:I think the key to these projects, particularly for stakeholders that aren't familiar with construction, is actually to ask a lot of questions and not feel that they are bothering either the architect or the OPM with those questions. It's a evolving learning process from the get go right from the terms RFIs, request for information, the CCDs construction change directive, the whole bit, construction has its own lingo, right? And you can't be expected to know everything having not been through this. And a lot of this, 27 plus years, I'm still learning certain acronyms and still finding that I don't understand necessarily a certain building system that's kind of changed from the last project, whether it be brick veneer or waterproofing, you have to ask the questions, you want to be informed and understand it as much as possible, and not just say, "Well, I'm just a librarian, or I'm just the technology guy or whatever." It'll help you be more informed when the library actually opens up, you understand how the design came to be. I remember asking you to sit down with us and talk us through what the budget meant. Yeah.
Andrea Bunker:And what piece of the budget was and just even something as simplistic as that which you might say, well, it's a budget, but you look at the budget, and then what is entailed in those costs, what is entailed in that line item? They're capturing a lot of work in these simple line items. So making sure that you understand which line item goes with which task.
John Sayre-Scibona:I think as a project budget is being developed, working hand in hand with the stakeholders so that they understand where those line items, what they're attributed to, and what is captured within each line item only enhances the discussion at the next time that budget's discussed. Then, you know, like I said, we've got, I don't know, say 50 line items, I haven't counted them up lately. They're kind of fluid, depending on the project. And Design Technique's budgets can be daunting. I mean, there's like nine columns, right? And so money moves back and forth. And we want to make sure we have the best forecasts for the owner to make decisions when money is pulled out of contingency or put back into contingency, because there's some money savings, or items come in and are developed during the project, we have to open up a new line item for that. And again, there's an impact at some level. So being informed on the process from the very beginning. And how that budget is put together really actually helps the stakeholders when it comes time to move into construction and the money in the fund's being expended. And that's one of the line items that we have. We want to make sure that the budgets don't get out of whack. You have these forecasts, it's the best possible outcome, but it's only a forecast. We're doing the best we can to make sure you stay on budget. And we've actually had a pretty good record, a lot of contingencies actually have gone back to the municipalities. We've had some where they've said to the library, "You keep what's leftover and use those funds for things you've cut back during the process." Now it's, it wasn't, you know, $275,000 like it was in Milton, but it was$40,000 like it was in Newburyport. So you know, that happens, they do come in under budget. And it's all about management.
Andrea Bunker:I think on the schedule side, too, you know, what I found really valuable working with you and with Kevin, who was our site rep, is being able to tell when something is going to be coming up for discussion. So you have that two week look ahead or the month look ahead with your contractor, but with the owners' project manager, and the site rep saying, "Alright, so now we're moving into this part of construction, you know, rough may be done. And now we have to start thinking about this. So we're going to have our door schedule meeting, or we're going to have this." So you need to think about how you want this building to operate at this stage. Do you want keyed locks? Do you want card locks? Do you want them to be able to be unlocked with a card after two taps? Like those things that you don't necessarily think about, but you have to anticipate as you're moving forward through the project, because it's not done with just the design work and then you're just watching it happen. There are other tasks that are along the way in that construction phase that you have to be heavily involved in if you're a library director or the trustees, the building committee, whatever it may be.
John Sayre-Scibona:That's a very good point, Andrea. So during the construction phase, there are various things that come up. And even obviously, during the design phase, do you want hand dryers? Or do you want paper towels? What kind of soap dispensers and your hot water system? I remember actually early on, well, Newburyport, I keep going back to the very first one, is that they had localized hot water at the sinks. Well, the water wouldn't kick in fast enough for someone to wash their hands. And the sinks started getting clogged up because the hot water didn't wash the soap down the drain. And so they were having to unclog the sinks because the hot water wasn't as instant hot to wash your hands. It seems like such a little thing. But during the process of design, there are so many decisions to be made, and so many things that the architect should be telling the director, "This is how we see this component of the project, particularly door locks. What happens when you unlock your door? And how do you want unlock it? Is it a key is a key fob? Is it both? When you walk in how are you turning the lights on? When you walk out how are you turn them off when you walk into these spaces? We've talked about when parents go into spaces, what are they doing with their strollers? What are they doing with their gear? Where are those parked so as not to be in the way of people moving through the building? You want to make sure they have free, clear space. So the libraries' directors actually bring a lot to that. But they have to be sort of thinking day to day, how's that operation work? How does my staff operate this? When I take the books out of the book drop, what are they going to do with those materials? And how does it get processed and checked in. All that has completely changed in the last, you know, 20 plus years on how materials are processed. So it's good for the directors to be up on the technology. They've got the wherewithal to understand how the materials are being processed. They need to bring that to the table to inform the designers. I mean, the designers are pretty savvy, don't get me wrong, but they're also not working in that particular library with that particular staff.
Andrea Bunker:And sometimes things were discussed so long ago, and then you get to it in the construction part and you need that refresher. And you may think of things differently as you're in that phase, because time has passed and other things have happened and
John Sayre-Scibona:Sure.
Andrea Bunker:you need to be on it. But I don't know how directors did it before OPMs were required on these whole building projects. I honestly, I think it's such a monumental task.
Lauren Stara:I think, you know, not to toot our own horns, but I think of all the librarians that have to do a project like this without somebody like Andrea or I who can translate all the all
Andrea Bunker:We're getting the monthly reports in a lag time, the information. I mean, just something as simple as how to right. So there's time that's passed between when we're seeing read building plans. You know, librarians aren't taught that. So there's a huge, steep learning curve at the beginning the monthly report and what's actually happening on the and throughout the project, and we try to prepare our directors project. So the OPM for the library directors to be able to for the amount of work that a building project is going to entail in addition to their regular duties, but, you know, shepherd them through and say,"Alright, this is when you need they just don't understand it till they're in the middle of it. to be thinking about this." Because we don't necessarily know that you're at that point yet because our monthly report is a month behind. So that all working together, but I think, you know, library directors and trustees and building project stakeholders, librarians who are working on these projects, you know, your OPM is one of your best allies and your best supporters throughout this entire process.
John Sayre-Scibona:Yes. So during construction, there are weekly project meetings. They're owner, architect, contractor OAC meetings. The OAC means have an agenda of items to go through particularly on schedule, a look ahead schedule, the total project schedule. On the construction side, there's also the issues that are in play for that week or ongoing for weeks at a time and design issues that need to be addressed. The request for information, which is the RFIs, the change orders or PCOs, pending change orders, pending change requests, variety of acronyms, all related to changes in the project that have Many of us have dealt with stuffed, a financial impact. So all those are addressed at the OAC meetings. And we always suggest that the library director participates in those meetings, because they really get to understand sort of the process of construction, but also sort of the meat of the building that they're going to end up having to, what you might say, take ownership of. And so that they understand that when the decision was made to eliminate or to add whatever issue dujour to the project, they understand how it got there, or how it got removed, and it better informs them the process and also the cost implications and what that means to their project budget as well. We also advise that either someone from the building committee or the town, sometimes the director, the DPW, or someone else that's tapped into the town itself attend as well, so they understand that decisions are being made. It's very important to have an extra entity for the town or the city involved in the project. Now city projects tend to have their own facilities project manager, so that's sort of a different model. But we'd like to have some of the stakeholders there attending these meetings. We've had trustees attend meetings. We just want to make sure that they're cognizant of all these issues as they develop. And sometimes they make decisions right there at the table with the architect and the contractor to move the project along, or it's taken back to the building committee on a monthly basis or bi-weekly basis to have these things move forward. At the end of the day, you don't want the contractor to necessarily slow down, you want to keep them moving forward, because they will look for opportunity to, not delay the project but look for funds for a delayed project just to cover themselves when the project completion date comes to fruition. So we really want the directors to be part of that. And part of that process early on is sitting down with the MBLC to review the drawings, to understand what the drawings mean, to open up the floor plans and see and understand how the library space design came together based on the program that they submit for their grant. That's really a huge part of that process of the design and construction of a public library. Having the the professionals at the state level work with the directors sort of side by side, helping them understand how their program gets translated into real space, whether horizontal or vertical. And what that means, what that means for sound, sound transference, simple things. Patience Jackson always wanted floor drains in the bathrooms. And she was right to, that was what she demanded. She wanted those floor drains, and, you know, I think every architect in the Commonwealth knows that for a public library that the floor drains are the first thing that goes into Right.
Andrea Bunker:stuffed paper towels in a sink that someone's turned on the water and just decided to flood it.
John Sayre-Scibona:Right.
Andrea Bunker:Or not through user maliciousness or error, but
John Sayre-Scibona:No, it just happens. Things happen. Right.
Andrea Bunker:Something bursting.
John Sayre-Scibona:There's a lot of advantage to having people who have gone through this process at the table with you. And having a touchstone for questions is very important, whether it be the architect who's really busy, quite frankly, the OPM who, that's what they should be helping them ferret out some of these questions and concerns and then going back to you all to understand, like, "Hey, we designed this. I don't think we're getting that. Can you walk me through this so I understand it?" Again, the old "What happens when you walk into this space? What happens if you're a two year old walking into this space, and what happens when you're a senior citizen walking into using technology?" You can distill it no matter which way, which constituent Are you addressing? That's up to the whole team to address those concerns and get the best result for the public at the final outcome.
Andrea Bunker:Do you have any final words for our listeners? A lot of pressure, sorry.
John Sayre-Scibona:No, I'm just trying to be intelligent but witty.
Andrea Bunker:You always are.
John Sayre-Scibona:So with all this discussion about these projects and all the projects that I've worked on all these years, I have to say, there's no perfect project, right? They all have something come up, either before, during or after. And the trick is to try to mitigate those as much as possible, try to anticipate them. But it's a wildcard, you just don't know what you're going to face until you face it. But you do your best to try to anticipate anything and, you know, check that box to take that item off the table, whether it's an abutter or recalcitrant subcontractor or material delay, these things happen. So eyes wide open, you cannot anticipate everything. And you're not the only one that's been there when it happens. You just look to the experts to try to uncork it and work your way through it and try to have the least damage as possible, both financially and mentally, frankly, to get to the other side and keep the project moving forward. It is sort of nothing personal, it's all business. So it's just to get the other side is the important thing.
Andrea Bunker:It's different on every project. So every time we learn of something that goes wrong, we try to educate our librarians about it, but you can't catch everything. And then even after it's open, it's not going to be perfect. Once it's done, it's not going to be perfect, because I remember Richard Bertman saying to me, there is no perfect building, there will always be something because that's the nature of buildings in general.
John Sayre-Scibona:Oh, absolutely.
Andrea Bunker:Neverending.
John Sayre-Scibona:Sure. It's just, you know, as you say, once the building opens, the change of use sometimes needs to be more flexible, you need to be more nimble. I mean, now, look, it used to be the MBLC wouldn't fund movable shelving. Now they encourage it, right?
Andrea Bunker:Right.
John Sayre-Scibona:It's a program issue to the betterment of the library for the staff to rearrange the books and the collection as such. So it's nice that the MBLC is also nimble and understanding the changing course of library use.
Andrea Bunker:Right. And I think, you know, our regulations are there to protect projects, they're there to protect overall the integrity of the building program, because that is where a lot of municipalities try to cut corners and make sure that they can fit into whatever their ideal budget is. However, it's not always realistic to get you a building that will last for 20 more years, or, let's be realistic, it's really 50 more years to 100 more years for these buildings. They're not going to be redoing them every 20 years.
John Sayre-Scibona:Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think early on when I started managing library projects, and even today, the response by the naysayers is, well, they have the internet. Well, libraries are so much more than the internet. We all know that, right? They're community gathering places, they're reading circles for the kids, they're job hunt locations, there's career counseling. They're way, way more than what the internet could ever provide. And hopefully, it's fact-based obviously, which is what is suspect with the internet. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. So anyway, I think that's part and parcel of the process.
Andrea Bunker:Agree, I agree. But yes, no perfect buildings exist. And everyone has their own idea of what would be perfect for a library building, right? You have all these competing ideas of what would be the best, and trying to come to consensus, too, through design.
John Sayre-Scibona:But I think the other point in this conversation is that a library can't be all things to everyone.
Andrea Bunker:No.
John Sayre-Scibona:And directors and staff, they try to do their best to accommodate as much as they can within the constraints of their budget and their staffing and their space. But honestly, they do a pretty darn good job at it,
Andrea Bunker:I agree.
John Sayre-Scibona:despite sometimes being hamstrung by the finances or space available. So it's a tribute to the effort that they put in why libraries work so well.
Andrea Bunker:I agree. Anything else to say on this topic?
John Sayre-Scibona:I think on these library projects as stressful as they are, and trust me, they can be stressful, they should also be enjoyable. Because you know that at the end of the day when that library is open, you have a product that you can feel that you did the best you could to serve the public, because that's what this is all about. It's paramount. It's in the name of your building, right? It's XYZ Public Library. And that's the goal is to serve the public, that's probably the best thing. And that's where I feel that the MBLC brings to the table, that the architect should bring to the table, that, frankly, the contractor should bring to the table, because it's a public building that serves everyone. And, you know, I've had 27 plus years of doing all this, and, frankly, my wife and I would go on vacation and actually visit public libraries. While we're away, just
Andrea Bunker:You're like us. We do the same.
John Sayre-Scibona:It's a busman's holiday, right? So. Well worth going to the Denver library, by the way.
Andrea Bunker:I have to say, you know, not only personally because all of what you did on our project. I don't know how I would have gotten through it without you. But I think it's going to be a sad day, when you close up shop and say goodbye. Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge with us today and for affecting positively so many communities throughout our Commonwealth with your work as an OPM. So, thank you.
John Sayre-Scibona:Well, it's been a joy. It was a joy working with both of you all these years and working in this realm. I mean, it's just probably the best testament for a career I get asked for. So I'm grateful for that opportunity on so many levels.
Andrea Bunker:Thank you so much again, John, for joining us today and for sharing all of your knowledge and your expertise with our listeners. And to our listeners, thank you so much for joining us for this episode. If there's a topic that we haven't yet covered, but that you would love to hear about, please do email me at Andrea.Bunker@mass.gov, and we will explore it. Until next time, take care and be well.