Building Literacy: Public Library Construction

Words of Wisdom from Patience Jackson and Rosemary Waltos

June 19, 2020 Massachusetts Board of Library Commissioners Construction Team Season 2 Episode 1
Building Literacy: Public Library Construction
Words of Wisdom from Patience Jackson and Rosemary Waltos
Chapters
Building Literacy: Public Library Construction
Words of Wisdom from Patience Jackson and Rosemary Waltos
Jun 19, 2020 Season 2 Episode 1
Massachusetts Board of Library Commissioners Construction Team

On this episode of Building Literacy: Public Library Construction, two former Library Building Specialists with our program, Patience Jackson and Rosemary Waltos, offer their words of wisdom from a collective 50 years of experience working on library building projects through both the Massachusetts Public Library Construction Program and independent consulting services. From their top three, or twelve, pieces of advice for library directors and designers to their favorite design mistakes, Patience and Roe share what they wish everyone knew before embarking on a building project.

Show Notes Transcript

On this episode of Building Literacy: Public Library Construction, two former Library Building Specialists with our program, Patience Jackson and Rosemary Waltos, offer their words of wisdom from a collective 50 years of experience working on library building projects through both the Massachusetts Public Library Construction Program and independent consulting services. From their top three, or twelve, pieces of advice for library directors and designers to their favorite design mistakes, Patience and Roe share what they wish everyone knew before embarking on a building project.

Andrea Bunker :

Welcome to Building Literacy: Public Library Construction, a podcast for librarians, trustees and local officials who are exploring or undertaking a renovation, expansion, or new construction project for their library. My name is Andrea Bunker.

Lauren Stara :

And my name is Lauren Stara. And we are the library building specialists who administer the Massachusetts Public Library Construction Program, a multi-million dollar grant program run by the Massachusetts Board of Library Commissioners, which is the state agency for libraries.

Andrea Bunker :

While this podcast is Massachusetts focused, stakeholders in library building projects everywhere may find helpful information within these episodes. From fundraising and advocacy campaigns, to sustainability and resilience, to the planning, design and construction process, there is something for everyone. If there is a public library building project topic we have not covered but that is of interest to you, please email me at Andrea.Bunker@state.ma.us or me at Lauren.Stara@state.ma.us On this episode of Building Literacy: Public Library Construction, two former library building specialists with our program Patience Jackson and Rosemary Waltos offer their words of wisdom from a collective 50 years of experience working on library building projects through both the Massachusetts Public Library Construction Program and independent consulting services. From their top three, or 12, pieces of advice for library directors and designers to their favorite design mistakes, Patience and Roe share what they wish everyone knew before embarking on a building project. Welcome to the show Patience and Roe. Would you like to start by introducing yourselves?

Patience Jackson :

Hello, my name is Patience Jackson, and I was building consultant for public libraries in Massachusetts from 1989 to 2012.

Rosemary Waltos :

And my name is Rosemary Waltos. I was a library director in both Massachusetts and Maine for about 25 years. And in 2008, I joined the Board of Library Commissioners working with Patience on the construction program, and I left the board in 2018.

Andrea Bunker :

So between the two of you, there's a lot of wisdom that's been gained, and a lot of lessons learned, and a lot of information that we can provide our library building project stakeholders with. So we were wondering, what are the top three pieces of information that every library director should know before undertaking or embarking on a building project?

Patience Jackson :

That's a tall question.

Rosemary Waltos :

It's hard to distill that in three points.

Patience Jackson :

Yes, it is. Mostly it would take a whole morning's site visit to do this, but the point, number one point I have to make is bad news. Number one, library director, you're going to have to weed. Take a look at your collections and recognize that it's going to cost around $400 to build one square foot of space, and that one square foot of space will only house 10 books. Therefore, whatever book you are holding in your hand is going to cost you $40 to house it. If that's not a motivator, I don't know what is. When I visit libraries, I frequently see all the books in the collection back to the start of the library. There is a case where a special bookcase houses the library of gifts donated by Benjamin Franklin to the town of Franklin, Massachusetts back in, I don't know, the early 18th century when it was named for him. Certainly I'd never throw those books out. But if you eyeball your collection, you will see a lot of dusty books that have never circulated. Another factor to consider is that with streaming, a lot of the video and media collections are going to have less and less interest and circulation. And a third factor to consider is that we now have networks, and it's very easy to borrow something that your library does not own. So I know nobody likes weeding, but there are two motivators: one is that cost of $40 a book or probably $10 for a space for a DVD, and the other is that a collection that is refreshed, by that I mean, if the book is falling apart for heaven's sake, if you still have to have it, why don't you order a new copy. This is a labor of love. I have seen major city libraries throw out 100,000 volumes. I have just watched one of my consulting projects throw out roughly 40% of their collection. So it's possible to do that. And you're doing it not only in the name of upgrading the collection, but also in the name of keeping your building the right size. The second point I have to make is that you've got to visit other libraries that your architect has designed and built, and I would recommend visiting these libraries without the architect tagging along. You're going to want to ask questions and take notes and take pictures and come away with a rough sketch of what the building is like if they don't have a copy of the drawings to give you. And the third point I would like to make is that you can't do this alone. You have to take care of yourself. Take your vacations, do not wake up in the middle of the night, have your checkups, and retain some degree of objectivity. You need to involve other people from politically the selectmen and the town manager or the City Council and the mayor. You have to involve your trustees, and, hopefully, one of them will step forward and make it a full time hobby. And you have to involve your staff both in the programming and in reviewing proposed designs. Rosemary, what about you?

Rosemary Waltos :

Well, actually Patience, you hit on a few of the things that I had thought of, you know, about surrounding yourself by articulate and talented and patient, passionate people. But I would also say that the librarian has to assume a leadership role in the process. And, and sometimes that doesn't happen. It seems like it's a no brainer, but, you know, sometimes that doesn't happen. It is very important. The director always has to have a seat at the table. And absolutely, you've got to take care of your mental and physical health. That's a must. I would also say that you have to have a "Never Say Never" attitude. So you have to go in with a sense of optimism. You can't go into it thinking "Oh, my town will never go for this." You have to be the cheerleader of the project. You have to get people to jump on your bandwagon and you'll never get that unless you are optimistic about the process from day one to the end. I don't know, Patience, if you mentioned this, but we talked about it last night, that you don't fall in love with your architect.

Patience Jackson :

Absolutely, the architect is the other leader, but he or she can be the leader in terms of vision or understanding the implications.

Rosemary Waltos :

And you have to understand that your architect that you have may change through the process. Sometimes the architect design firm will change or the architect will leave the firm. You have a sense of loss when that happens, because you do develop a relationship with the architects through the process, but just understand that it's either a natural process where people move on or when you get into the construction process that another architect from the firm would take over. One other thing I think I would mention is that when you're thinking about your building and improvements that you have to make, I think one of the first things you have to do is justify what you need to do to improve the facility, improve the services, and you improve services by improving your facility. But you first have to make sure you've done everything that you can within your budget before you start embarking on a project, because you want to prove to your community that you've done everything that you can, that you've used every square foot of your current building to the maximum before you're going to embark on a multimillion dollar project.

Andrea Bunker :

So in the answers to that last question, we heard architects come up a couple of times in terms of not bringing them on the tours and not falling in love with them. But what are the top three pieces of information that you wish every architect knew about designing libraries?

Patience Jackson :

Security and staff efficiency. When I look at some designs, my feet hurt. Good public library service involves walking around. And most of us can't wear sneakers on the job. Most of us by the time we're retired, have feet that are in very bad shape. We're moving constantly. So efficiency of the layout, so that work room is right behind the circulation desk, so that lines of sight mean that you don't have to go over to another part of the building to see what's going on are very important. Another thing is ease of maintenance. My first building program I said no white walls within reach of human hands. The fact is libraries really mostly have a part time janitor. Mostly the janitor isn't around when a disaster occurs or toilet overflows. So some failsafe things like floor drains and bathrooms have to be designed in. What about you, Roe?

Rosemary Waltos :

Designing for functionality, flexibility and security, I think you've covered that. That's that's paramount. But I will also say that architects have to listen to librarians, that librarians know their business the best, and that they have to read the building program, understand it, and listen to the librarian and what they want. And I guess my third point would be that buildings aren't being built for their Architectural Digest centerfold.

Patience Jackson :

They're built to be useful.

Rosemary Waltos :

Useful, yes. So I think that's probably more than three, but those are big ones.

Andrea Bunker :

I think we can have more than three. It's great information for people. You were talking about, you know, a library not being a centerfold for Architectural Digest. What was your favorite design mistake that you've ever encountered on a plan or in an actual library?

Patience Jackson :

Oh, yes. In one library in Massachusetts, there is a cute hideout in the children's room, but it's lethal for any adult bending over to talk to a child in it. The one I'm thinking of features a steel crossbar, five feet off the floor. Only problem is that parents keep coming to the circ desk with a bleeding forehead. That was a disaster.

Rosemary Waltos :

Is that your top mistake? You must have others.

Patience Jackson :

Well, that's my top one: blood.

Rosemary Waltos :

I've got about eight so you must have others, Patience.

Patience Jackson :

Oh, I do but that one is a stand out.

Rosemary Waltos :

Well, I think children and basements is a standout. I mean, we're still putting kids in basements even after all this time. Yeah, it drives me crazy. I, like I said, I have a list of two, four, about ten. Lauren, you'll you will appreciate this one, even though it's down on my list I'll say it right now. Fireplaces are to me a mistake, although I know they're lovely and sought after places to sit in front of, but they're fixed and they can never be changed. And if you go into libraries today, older libraries today, you'll see periodical racks, you'll see them blocked up you'll see circulation desks in front of them, and it just shows how they're an immovable object. So as lovely as they are, they're not flexible. One of my bugaboos has always been to entrances into a building, especially if one doesn't face the service desk as you come in. Want me to keep going?

Lauren Stara :

Yes, keep going, Roe.

Rosemary Waltos :

Poor sightlines. I think, Patience, you mentioned poor sightline. Bad acoustics. I know that's a issue that Lauren tackled early on when she got to the MBLC, and we tried to wrap our arms around that problem. And I think to some degree, we were able to give some good solutions to libraries going forward with their projects. Inadequate storage is always a big one. It's the first thing that gets value engineered out. A lot of libraries, part of their justification is lack of storage, and then we build them with inadequate storage. Built-ins. I always think that's a mistake for especially staff workstations, when they're built in. Again, it goes back to the flexibility of a building. Patience, you'll appreciate this one: poorly integrated historic buildings and additions.

Patience Jackson :

Oh, absolutely.

Rosemary Waltos :

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what we've fought so hard on with your project, Andrea, trying to make sure that those the historic building and the addition were well integrated.

Andrea Bunker :

It was a challenge, but I think...

Rosemary Waltos :

It was, but it happened; we were able to achieve that.

Patience Jackson :

I have a couple things to add. One is putting the main entrance on the north side of the building, because it never thaws. A second is a ramp that goes down into the building, because water will accumulate at the bottom of any ramp. And a third is roof overhangs that overhang the walkway or the steps or the ramp, because snow and ice are going to fall off this slanting roof way and accumulate on the surfaces, and it will be a constant hassle and challenge to keep the steps and the ramp free of ice.

Rosemary Waltos :

Well, I would add talking about the outside of the building, too small parking lots. That there. Not, not that there's two parking lots. But they're, they're not large enough.

Patience Jackson :

Yes. If you're going to build a meeting room for 100, you better plan on parking for 60 at least.

Rosemary Waltos :

But I mean, and I know parking is a big issue when libraries are planning and trying to find a site. And, you know, there's always this crunch. I mean, I think that, you know, we've got to be sensitive to certain urban conditions that you know, parking just isn't going to be, generous parking won't be an option, but that the urban situation I think is different.

Patience Jackson :

Yes, but just try writing a regulation for Boston and for a town of 3000.

Rosemary Waltos :

and the town of 3000 insists that everybody walks to the library.

Patience Jackson :

Yes, but the Boston justification is that there is an MBTA stop right nearby. The context is very important.

Rosemary Waltos :

Right.

Andrea Bunker :

And now with sustainability, the urban libraries are facing issues with their parking lots being taken away because of LEED points or trying to lessen the amount of emissions, so they're not having as much parking.

Patience Jackson :

There's also shared parking where the library agrees to plow the adjacent church parking lot. And in return, library patrons can park there.

Andrea Bunker :

So in turn, now that we've gone through some of the fails or mistakes, what are some of your favorite design successes?

Patience Jackson :

I have dumped all over the problems of the old Carnegie buildings, but there is nothing like entering an antique building that's been restored and refreshed, hopefully with original furniture that is also restored and refreshed. This is New England and all other things being equal, some of these restored antique buildings are breathtaking and significant, and I love them.

Rosemary Waltos :

I found this the most difficult question of all of them that you sent us. I wasn't sure if we were talking about a feature or a library. Well, I always go back to something Patience has said repeatedly, is that there's no perfect building. You know, we have to remember that, if only to keep our sanity, both as library directors involved in a project and as the specialists that are trying to oversee the project from beginning to end. But I guess just in a nutshell, I would say a right size building that's well integrated, flexible, safe and secure. So that the feature I would offer.

Patience Jackson :

I have another design mistake, that is you have a building, and there's a view from that site to something else important and charming, for example a lake, a small lake. Then you build an addition onto the building and on the lake side of the building, there's a nice, big window. However, the nice, big window is not aimed so that anybody sitting down can look out the window and see the lake. In other words, if you're going to build something with a view, be absolutely certain that from inside the building, you can see the view.

Andrea Bunker :

I am so intrigued right now. I think it's always harder to talk about the successes because when it works, it works, and we don't have to focus on that as much as building specialists. But we do have to make sure that whatever mistakes are made, that we are addressing those to the best of our ability, and making sure that future libraries don't make the same mistakes, or that we can change that mistake before it's too late for the library that has it in their plans. So the next question focuses on the challenges of getting a public library building project off the ground, and, in your years of experience, and I think Lauren and I talked about this a lot, too, especially when we look through the files, and it's the same issues in different iterations in every municipality. So, it just keeps repeating. So why do you think it takes so long for public library projects to come to fruition? And what advice do you have for library building project stakeholders who have a long campaign in front of them to gain municipal and community approval and funding?

Rosemary Waltos :

Patience? Do you want me to...

Patience Jackson :

That's so complicated. I would say that establishing a private fundraising campaign is a very important thing, not only because you're seeking a leadership gifts are true, but also to bring together some people who really believe in the project, who will also attend town meeting.

Rosemary Waltos :

So why don't I contribute some reasons why some projects take longer than others or falter and and don't go forward. And these are probably things that, like you said, you see in the file repeated in different in different ways. I think that in general, there's even now the library services in the community are undervalued in some places. So the thought of putting money, investing money into a library where you talking about local funding, meaning higher taxes, is a big roadblock for a lot of communities. And then every community has its capital budget priorities. And if the library hasn't asserted itself in the process. And, a lot of times, that means asserting itself into the planning process, the master plan for the town, that could be another roadblock. And then of course, there's always change in local leadership, so you're constantly in the re-education mode and trying to convince people as they cycle off boards in positions like the mayor, or the town or city manager. It's a constant, and so you've convinced one group say the mayor, and then the mayor loses the election and we have a new mayor coming on board and so the process starts all over again. So I think those are a few reasons why projects seem to go on forever. Any to add to that, Patience?

Patience Jackson :

Just that the local funding equals higher taxes, many of these projects can be expressed only in terms of the increase in the tax rate for the particular library project. And sometimes the borrowing only amounts to $15 a year or $30 a year per household for 20 years. Well, big deal, live it up!

Rosemary Waltos :

And that goes down, as each year that goes down. People don't understand that either.

Patience Jackson :

Yes.

Andrea Bunker :

So what advice do you have for the stakeholders and the library directors who have that long campaign in front of them, and what are things that they should be doing or could be doing? And how do you keep your sanity during that time?

Rosemary Waltos :

You start with a plan, definitely. You know, and you follow the plan and you speak in all one voice so you don't have everyone, all the members on your team, saying different things. So I think a plan is probably one of the first things after you've done your building program. Then I always would recommend that the library bolster its image in the community, even before you start talking about a building project. You know, you have to make sure that people understand the benefit of the library to them as individuals and as a community before you go out and with your hands stretched out to say now, please, you know, pass my projects and give to a capital campaign and support us through your tax dollars. I think those are important. And Patience is right, you need professional help. For many librarians, asking for money, doing capital campaigns don't come naturally. And it's really the community that should take the leadership role in launching the capital campaigns. What else, Patience?

Patience Jackson :

Oh! Never give up.

Rosemary Waltos :

Never give up. And I'll add to that don't whine, stop whining.

Patience Jackson :

I have a personal story. My mother was a library trustee outside of Pittsburgh. The library was housed at the top of the municipal building, as my girl scout leader pronounced it. And they needed a new building. And they found a site. It was actually just half a block from my house. They found this site, they went to the municipal authorities and they asked for $900,000 to build this building. This was back in the 50s. up for grabs, also at the same time, was a parking lot for the high school, and the price tag on that was $900,000. So the municipal powers-that-be elected to build the high school parking lot, not the library. So this board of trustees didn't give up, and the library director did not give up. They redesigned the building. The price tag was only say a half million dollars. They went back to the town fathers. They got the money. They built this cheap building. That was probably around 1963. I remember sending that librarian some flowers. In the late 1970s, my sister and I were back in town, we drove past the library and it was a hole in the ground. Turns out the cheap building was falling apart. The library trustees had hired Anders Dahlgren from Wisconsin to come, and he told them, they had to tear it down and build a new one. So by the early 80s, they had, indeed, demolished it and built a new library building. So it took probably 20 years to get something that I hope is still standing. I haven't been back. But they never gave up.

Rosemary Waltos :

And I think that's the value of the construction program is that we try to get people to build buildings that are going to last. The other point that Patience and I talked about before we got on the line with you was the use of the multimillion dollar construction grant as leverage, that communities should use that to their advantage to get local support and funding.

Andrea Bunker :

We did hear from many of our librarians who participated in the program that that was a driving force for their ability to be able to get a new library building or a renovated, renovated or expanded library. And once that building is built, how do you critique it?

Rosemary Waltos :

When you go to a building that's been completed, how do you approach it when you're on the tour with the library director? So, Patience, you want to do that?

Patience Jackson :

I decided long ago that if this thing is built, it's too late to criticize it to the library director. You can learn a lot from touring any new building. Some of it you will love, some of it you will hate, but it is built, it's permanent. You can suggest a modification like move x or buy y or whatever. But in general, when you're touring the building with this librarian who is at the pinnacle of his or her project, it's not fair at that point to say, "Oh, this partition is crooked", or "Why did we put the children in the basement?" or any of that. Another thing I have to contribute about funding is that when a proposed project to improve or replace an inaccessible building, wen it comes to town meeting or city council and is not funded, I have questioned why the, why the handicapped component of the community does not file a lawsuit in favor of the new project. It seems to me that the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 is now 30 years old. And we still have a lot of libraries where the town's refused to do anything. And it seems to me that if the state funding is the carrot, the lack of handicapped access, as complex as it may be, is also a stick, whether it's a legal stick or a moral stick. Enough said.

Rosemary Waltos :

So, can we go back to question one? Cuz I have something else that, I'm not sure I added this. One of the things that I think helps justify a project is when someone comes in and makes a building assessment. Someone, a structural engineer, a project manager that can come in and go through the whole building and look at all the systems, the plumbing, the heating, the envelope, the structure itself and point out what's right and what's deficient in the building. And I always thought that that was an important component to have, as you're trying to justify a project to a community. And I think that's something that Lauren we were working on when I left way back. It just seems to me it's even more important now as dollars are getting more restrictive.

Lauren Stara :

Yes, we have started talking to a number of libraries, especially those who are thinking about a future project, and we're saying it's too early to start your design work but this building assessment for condition and functionality is something that can be done immediately.

Rosemary Waltos :

Yeah, I think that's an excellent idea.

Patience Jackson :

It's really part of the needs assessment.

Rosemary Waltos :

But I think it's done at even a higher level, yes, but it all takes money.

Andrea Bunker :

And they're also, as we talked about, in previous podcasts, the sustainability angle where municipalities are making these compacts for 2030, 2040, 2050. And if your building is not energy efficient, you know, you need an assessment of how to get there as well. So there are a couple of different factors involved in it.

Rosemary Waltos :

And that's almost like the ADA for handicapped accessibility back in the beginning of the program, how the program was able to use that as a launching pad for it. So you use the energy efficiency of the building in the same way.

Patience Jackson :

It's all else fails, I'm in favor of bringing in the fire marshal because the possibility is that the fire marshal has never really been in the library or assessed the implications of having 100 people gather in the building. And the fire marshal can put the fear of God into a board of selectmen about what isgoing to happen.

Lauren Stara :

That brings up a question that I have. I'm going off script a little bit, but I wonder if Patience and Rosemary, you could contribute any thoughts that you have about how the current pandemic situation may affect buildings coming in the near and far future?

Patience Jackson :

Well, the first thing is that all those tables before are going to only have one chair at them. The second thing is that all the books are going to come back, my local library says next week, and they're going to have to isolate them for three or four days before any staff member status them. Longer term, we don't know how societies going to evolve in general. Is it going to be all right to have a children's story hour with 30 little kids sitting shoulder to shoulder? When is that going to happen?

Rosemary Waltos :

And what I think is, is that there's been for decades now, the idea of the library as the community center. The library is the gathering place. The library where, you know, social interaction is encouraged. Large gatherings with big meeting rooms or events. And I just wonder, not just libraries, but in general, how that push for more and more community gathering space, community events, interactions with people and with things. I think of museums like science museums that are so heavy on the touch, you know, touching screens, touching items. I wonder how we'll come out of this on the other end. Because I think that there's going to be less of that, at least in the beginning after we come out of this. And how long will that last?

Andrea Bunker :

I think as this unfolds, we'll be finding out more information from the CDC and different entities that are studying; IMLS is doing a study as well. And I think it's hard to tell because we don't have accurate information about how this virus works, how long it stays on materials, how long it's airborne, and there are differing statistics. And it's just really difficult to be able to provide information to libraries when the research is changing, and they're gathering it as we go.

Lauren Stara :

Okay, I'm sorry that I derailed the conversation so thoroughly. Can we get back to the questions?

Andrea Bunker :

So there's only one other question that I had, and I don't know if there's other information that you wanted to add to it or add to this entire wisdom episode. But, Patience, I saw in the files, a couple of times, that you sent garlic to embattled projects, and I was wondering if it ever worked.

Patience Jackson :

I only sent garlic once.

Andrea Bunker :

Only once?

Patience Jackson :

Only once to a small town. I bought the garlic at the store and then I had one of those mesh onion bags, and I put the garlic in the onion bag and tied it up with pretty ribbons. And I mailed it to that library director, the latest of four who had been working for over 10 years. I mailed it to that library director with the wish that she hang it in her empty new building and it was to keep the evil spirits away. Well, the Chair of the Board of Trustees had a real sense of humor, and she got a planter full of potting soil, and she planted my garlic. And she watered it, and it grew into a desk ornament that finally graced the brand new circulation desk in the brand new library. I think one of the lessons from this is that a sense of humor is always appropriate. And that if you do something like send garlic, you can get written up in Library Journal.

Rosemary Waltos :

I think that should be that sense of humor piece should be under your first question. That's important.

Lauren Stara :

Absolutely.

Andrea Bunker :

If you can't laugh about it, you'd cry.

Rosemary Waltos :

Really! Yeah. Buckets.

Patience Jackson :

Yes, becau... that project had been under a cloud, under three or four clouds. It had been defeated, it had been contorted. It had been sued by the heirs of the guy who built the antique building on a small site that couldn't be added on to. It had been doomed by every kind of witchcraft there was, but as far as I know, it's a fine new building, and it's serving the town very well.

Lauren Stara :

I can think of a project right now that I need to send garlic to.

Andrea Bunker :

I think we can think of three, Lauren.

Rosemary Waltos :

Oh, God! Now I got a know.

Patience Jackson :

Oh, me, too!

Andrea Bunker :

Secrets.

Rosemary Waltos :

Okay.

Andrea Bunker :

But at first I thought Patience was talking about our project. But I also think it's important to know there's rarely a project that isn't embattled in some way, shape, or form, so that the library directors are not alone in these issues. It's just, it feels very isolating at the time. So, having a sense of humor, and being able to laugh about it. And I think that's also the value of having building specialists as well, someone that you can talk to, commiserate with, but also that has understanding and experience that goes beyond just your project, so that they can bring you some context. So I think sharing all of this wisdom with stakeholders and library directors is so valuable, because it lets them know that they're not alone. And it gives them a little bit of a roadmap in terms of their own personal journey with their building project and the steps that they may need to take along the way in order to prepare themselves and to have it come to fruition and see it through. So thank you for that. Thank you for tuning into this episode of Building Literacy. Join us for our next episode with Patience and Roe as we discuss the origins of the Massachusetts Public Library Construction Program and its evolution over the past three decades. As always, if you have any suggestions or requests for future episodes, please email me at Andrea.Bunker@state.ma.us. Until next time. Transcribed by https://otter.ai