Wives Not Sisters

Making Friends in Your 30s...why is it so hard?

• Kayla Nielsen and Alix Tucker • Season 1 • Episode 2

Share episode

Alix and Kayla are back for episode two! They share each other’s “toxic traits” before diving into loneliness, friendship struggles, and how one genuine connection can shift everything.

Timestamps:

    •    00:01 – Intro + playful “toxic traits” game

    •    09:39 – Matching outfits & why the podcast is called Wives Not Sisters

    •    10:07 – Admitting loneliness + challenges of making friends in your 30s

    •    18:31 – Coming out, shifting friendships, and craving queer community

    •    41:06 – How one neighbor opened the door to a supportive friend circle

    •    51:22 – Closing segment: “Who’s the problem?”

Connect with us on social media: IG: @wivesnotsisterspod

Follow our hosts on Instagram: @kaylalanielsen @alix_tucker


UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

Hey guys, it's Alex. And Kayla. And we're married. Not related. Definitely codependent.

SPEAKER_00:

But in a cute way. And we are so excited to have you back with us. Episode two. Look at that intro. So much smoother than last time. We did it.

SPEAKER_01:

My willies are all

SPEAKER_00:

up. We

SPEAKER_01:

did it. This is exciting. Yeah. But honey, I think it's your turn to leave. What do you mean you think? I think it might be. Yeah. I left last time, so I think it's your turn.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So like we told you last week, every week we'll start with just kind of like a fun little game to, like you said, get the willies out. I feel like this is going to be merch at some point. Get the willies out. It's so weird sounding coming from, you know, lesbian, but that's a

SPEAKER_01:

separate issue. Because you don't want to hear about our boring weekends. So we're going to play a game instead.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. What do

SPEAKER_01:

you have for us today?

SPEAKER_00:

Hmm. What do you think? I don't know. Toxic traits, baby. Oh. You got a few of those. Okay. I got a few. Relax. Relax. So I was thinking that, you know, it's always easier to point these things out in other people rather than looking inward. So we're going to just kind of acknowledge lovingly some toxic traits in the other and then maybe, you know, have some self-reflection and realize some of our own. So what do you think?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I mean, let's do it as long as this doesn't lead to divorce.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Well, TBD, what do you got? What do you got for me? What am I toxic about? Lay it on me. Oh,

SPEAKER_01:

well, honey, you are perfect. So this is really hard for me to do. I'm glad that's recorded. But I have a few, so don't worry.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so... You're like, hold on, let me pull out my scroll. Yeah, I got a

SPEAKER_01:

few. I got a list. Okay, so... I get to say multiple right but I'll just pick one for now my first one is that you this isn't it but you don't like to go to the store whether it be like a grocery store or the apple store like any store in general

SPEAKER_03:

yeah yeah

SPEAKER_01:

alone but like you don't like to go in general but you won't you won't go alone and so sometimes though you'll be like like let's say I've already gone to the grocery store this week but we've got a dinner party coming up and you need to pick up a few things so you'll offer you'll be like I'm gonna go to the store and I'm gonna pick pick up a few things. I'll be like, that's so nice, right? But then a few hours later, you'll be like, honey, you know what would be really fun is like after our walk, we could go to the grocery store together. It'd be like a cute date. Like you try to then pitch it as a date. What do you

SPEAKER_00:

mean try?

SPEAKER_01:

But then I actually am just ultimately have to do the thing in the end. I think that's sweet. I think that's called

SPEAKER_00:

quality time and you are neglecting me.

SPEAKER_01:

You just are always finding a way out of the things that you don't want to do. by making me do them

SPEAKER_00:

so remember after we recorded last time and I was like I have to go to Sephora because I need more makeup literally the last time I bought makeup was in 2023 and I was like I have to go I have to make sure it's the right shade and you're like cool like why are you telling me this basically you're like yeah get whatever you you thought I was asking permission to buy makeup or something you're like get whatever you want I'm like no no I'm just saying like you have to come with me yeah we're going on

SPEAKER_01:

a date this weekend to Sephora because that That's what I want to be doing. So that is a serious toxic trait of

SPEAKER_00:

yours. I don't think it's toxic. I think it's sweet. So it's all about your perspective.

SPEAKER_01:

Whatever.

SPEAKER_00:

All right. So for you, my love, there's a few things, just a few that you do. And one of them we also talked about the other day off air. And I said, why is it that I feel like I always have to get photographic evidence for everything and you said you don't have to and I said well I kind of do because if I don't if I say hey like you left a bunch of meat chunks in the sink your first response is always no I didn't always it doesn't

SPEAKER_01:

sound like something I would do

SPEAKER_00:

see you're literally doing it right now no I didn't no I didn't I'll be like hey you elbowed me in the face last night when we slept and I can't even take a photo and you're like no I didn't and the implications is that I'm a liar, which I take very personally. I'm like, why would I make this up? Why? So now I just text you a photo. I'm like, sometimes I don't even say anything. I just text you the photo because without that, you won't believe me.

SPEAKER_01:

It's not that I think that you're a liar. It's just that I don't think that I would do those things.

SPEAKER_00:

But you did. I hold myself in high regard. But you did. And I'm not going to go out of my way in the middle of my workday to just make this up. This doesn't

SPEAKER_01:

sound toxic.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

whatever fair enough I think I do do that so I'll give you that okay my other one for you and for those of you who did listen to the first episode that we did

SPEAKER_02:

this

SPEAKER_01:

came up and so basically you use psychological warfare tactics on me

SPEAKER_00:

all the time you are contributing to the free Alex t-shirts that are going to be made at this point

SPEAKER_01:

you think that people are going to make free Alex yeah probably are we those people i'm that person

SPEAKER_00:

they're gonna leave reviews and be like can't you see that she is whatever i don't know trapped

SPEAKER_01:

yeah no use psychological warfare tactics on me and if you listen to the first episode you got a glimpse into what those tactics were when we before we started dating we didn't know what we were basically you use these tactics of like i'm just like you don't know that i might be bi and so like I'm just this I just normal straight girls cuddle their queer friends this is totally normal like I'm just wearing like a thong and no bra and a tiny tiny tank to bed because that's normal

SPEAKER_00:

no

SPEAKER_01:

and then you're just watching me squirm

SPEAKER_00:

but okay that was different because that was also me kind of like coming to terms with my sexuality okay but you do this every single day in our

SPEAKER_01:

regular life now it could be like a face that you give me a smile that you give me even the like yeah we're gonna go on like a date together and it's like yeah we're going to Sephora right like that's a psychological warfare tactic that you're using on me to get your

SPEAKER_00:

way yeah and you want to know where I learned that from being a nursery school teacher you give toddlers two choices but both choices give you the outcome that you want are you insinuating I'm a toddler I don't just do it I don't just do it to you I don't and this most parents do this by the way you're highly highly skilled

SPEAKER_01:

at this tactic

SPEAKER_00:

one of my friends called me two-choice Kayla. You'll

SPEAKER_01:

be a great mother.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay,

SPEAKER_01:

well. I mean, you are a great

SPEAKER_00:

mother. Thank you for the very roundabout backhanded compliment. Okay, the next toxic trait is not, it's not directed just at you. This is us. This is an us thing. Okay. I'm going to take some of the heat off of you.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And all you have to do is look down at what you're wearing and what I'm wearing. We're wearing the exact same, not Not just a green shirt. You didn't

SPEAKER_01:

have to do

SPEAKER_00:

this to us. The exact same color green. And this is why, literally why we have the name of the podcast that we do because we go out in public often matching unwillingly and then people just think we're like these cute little twin sisters romping around. Which I don't get because we do not look alike. Yeah, we have brown hair and brown eyes. That's the extent of it. But when we wear matching outfits, it's not. What do you think we're twins? Like twins go out in public matching? That's Honestly, a lot more concerning if adult twins are matching in public in their late 30s. Right? Like, why do people think this? But I feel like older people, they don't know. They don't know. And all I'm saying is we always end up matching. And I personally don't understand the lesbian couples or like, you know, queer women couples that like to match. I have seen this online so much where they're like, look at how cute we're matching. You liked

SPEAKER_01:

matching with me in the beginning of our relationship. When? You did. When? There's photographic evidence on Instagram.

SPEAKER_00:

Because, no, we took photos. It'd be funny. We would both come downstairs to walk the dog wearing the exact same thing. We're like, oh, haha, this is funny. But here's the thing

SPEAKER_01:

is that I put on my clothes first today. I saw you leave the house wearing black leggings and a denim shirt. And I was going to wear a denim shirt with these pants today. And I said, I'm not going to do that because I don't want to match you. When

SPEAKER_00:

is the only time I wear leggings? to wear that the only time I wear leggings is when I'm going to Pilates or yoga that's not going to be my permanent outfit you

SPEAKER_01:

knew what I was wearing when you chose that outfit

SPEAKER_00:

no

SPEAKER_01:

so don't do this to us anymore no no

SPEAKER_00:

I said this

SPEAKER_01:

is a joint toxic trait okay but I feel like it's only toxic if you're the person picking the same

SPEAKER_00:

outfit don't size me up with your eyes as you're saying that you're like looking me up and down not in a good way whatever okay well speaking of toxic traits I mean, this just kind of makes it sound like we would be the least appealing friends possible. Is that true? I don't think so. I think we're nice friends. You said that with a very high-pitched voice, which makes it seem like you don't believe it at all. I think we're nice friends. But today we're going to talk about friendship.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. This has been an interesting subject since we've known each other.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, just in general, you know, it's like not just since we've known each other, but I did share this on my Instagram. I don't remember when, a few weeks or months sometime recently ago. And finally talking about just like I'm feeling so lonely at this phase of life, even though obviously you and I feel super solid. We're good. But it's like your partner, even if your partner is your best friend, like you were talking about last week, your partner should be your best friend. And it's like, yeah, even if your partner is that, they still can't be

SPEAKER_01:

everything

SPEAKER_00:

everything they can't fill that same void that a friend can the same way that when you're single your friends can't fill that same void that your romantic partner can you know so it's like even though there's so many areas of our life that felt so full it was just like getting to the point that the friendship bucket was dry

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

it was very for both of us Sahara Desert you know

SPEAKER_01:

yeah it wasn't where we wanted it to be

SPEAKER_00:

and there was but it was a weird thing I remember even when I shared it it was almost this feeling of like it's embarrassing to say you You feel lonely, you know, because then it makes it seem like, oh, what's what's wrong with you that you don't have friends? What's wrong? You know, just like

SPEAKER_01:

not cool.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think especially with women, it's like, oh, it's a red flag if she doesn't have friends from this age or, you know, she all of these things. And it's like sometimes that's true. But sometimes you grow up in a weird ass place and you like don't want to be friends with people that you met in kindergarten. Like, I don't think that's that strange to say. I

SPEAKER_01:

think that's normal. like I don't I mean it's cool if you have friends from high school or college or whatever but like it's also cool if that core group didn't kind of stay a group anymore

SPEAKER_00:

yeah yeah so there was just something about this is why I knew I wanted to talk about it it was well before the podcast was alive and well but I was just like oh I want to go deeper into this because sharing it on my story it's like you can only do so much and there was also just a huge response from it because it is relatable you know I think like as you get older, the harder it becomes to make friends.

SPEAKER_01:

It's way harder in your like mid to late 30s than it's like when you're in your 20s and kind of always surrounded by people all the time. Like so much happens that makes it just a much more challenging experience to like make new friends, even to like keep existing friendships. So much happens in that like early 30s time period that really changes things.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because it's like, I mean, obviously high school, you're surrounded by people. College, you're also surrounded by people. But even I didn't obviously work work corporate so I didn't have this experience but even I know for you for instance you were in these kind of like party corporate environments where you still made a ton of friends some people you're still friends with now that were from work and a lot of people go that route too you know where it's like you are constantly surrounded by people that could be friends and then maybe do become friends and then the older you get your lives just start to feel more separate or you're going in different directions I think it definitely happens when it's like a group starts getting married And then maybe their life changes or has kids and these big life changes are happening, you know, but since you and I met, so that was almost six years ago now, I started note. So when we met, it was right before COVID happened. You know, we met the end of 2019 and then COVID happened right as we were getting together. So we're falling in love. We're in this like crazy love bubble, just delusional to anything happening in the outside world. But then when I kind of did come up for air, it was like, oh, everything feels so different with my old friendships and when I was telling you about that you could relate and I thought you know maybe you can kind of just like explain to people a little bit about your experience too

SPEAKER_01:

yeah I don't know like COVID I think a lot of people can relate this but COVID was a weird time where just I feel like it almost immediately like you know whittled down the people that you talk to like literally overnight it was just like I don't know some people were doing those zoom parties and that kind of stuff I never got never was really into that I'm really like a one-on-one face-to-face type person trying to text phone calls zoom like it's just not really my thing and so it really made it difficult right away because people didn't want to obviously like be in groups together and so I don't know it kind of like immediately whittled down to like a couple of people that I was like really in close contact with but we also moved right away so I was living in San Francisco and then you know you would you came to San Francisco the COVID lockdown happened in San Francisco we left and went to to San Diego

SPEAKER_03:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

and so we immediately left essentially like

SPEAKER_00:

all my friends but even if we were in San Francisco no one was hanging out in person at that time

SPEAKER_01:

they were a little bit but not a lot really and it was just like we were now no longer there and

SPEAKER_00:

so all of your friends kind of dispersed from the city over the next few over the next like year but not not right away

SPEAKER_01:

yeah maybe a year later people started to realize like oh we can go live anywhere but yeah so I think that made it hard immediately was that we were immediately removed at least for me like from my friends that i was used to seeing you know on a daily weekly basis

SPEAKER_00:

yeah you were so social before you met me at least just based on what you yeah i

SPEAKER_01:

would be with people like four or five nights a week that's crazy yeah it's crazy to me to think about now yeah i can't even

SPEAKER_00:

imagine that for you now

SPEAKER_01:

that was like in my city life it was very much just like yeah after work hang out with friends get dinner whatever

SPEAKER_00:

go to a show go to every you're going away every

SPEAKER_01:

Because I'm like such– I didn't like realize this until COVID happened, but like I'm such a face-to-face person. Yeah. I really don't like texting, calling, anything. For me, it was just immediately like, well, I'm not going to do those things. Like for me, it's just like it's just not my personality. It's still so hard for me. You

SPEAKER_00:

know this. It's still– oh, my God. The other– well, we'll obviously get to the point of how we have made new friends recently. But you– I was the first one added to the group chat. And you were like, I want to be in the group chat. And I was like– honey don't go in and then just be weird and never respond when anyone says anything to you I try now sometimes you do you're doing a good job

SPEAKER_01:

I'm doing better but it's it's hard so I think for me like right away we're now in a different city I can't just like go pop over to a friend's house or get dinner or something and so and I'm really struggle with friendship over technology and so it are it immediately kind of shrunk the friends down but then even then it was like okay now we have to prioritize a way to see each other, you know, and so that

SPEAKER_00:

required travel. In a time where you're not supposed to travel either. Exactly. It

SPEAKER_01:

requires travel and that becomes really difficult. And so it just immediately started to put, not like a strain, but it just started to put like distance within the friendships that I had.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I was feeling all of those things too, except I was a lot more comfortable with long distance friendships because, because I've been traveling and living all over. Yeah, you'll send a

SPEAKER_01:

30 minute voice note, no problem.

UNKNOWN:

No problem.

SPEAKER_00:

Our producer is laughing right now, Lex, because we're all about that voice note life. So yeah, I just am used to that. I'm used to my friends living in different countries, different time zones. And it's just the only way to stay connected or even just like my family. I was always living all over the world. So if I want to talk to them, I have to use the phone. It's just a necessary evil. But for me during COVID, it was like that was happening of just, you know, Yeah, there's distance and everything. But I think for me, it was more of like, I was also coming out at that same time. And even though my coming out, and we'll probably talk about this at some point, I guess, I don't know when, but I've just kind of like our coming out experiences, stories, whatever. My coming out was mostly pretty smooth, you know, like pretty kind of uneventful for the most part. There's a few bumps along the way, but it was just, it was more this feeling, some of my old friends who are no longer really friends like they definitely treated me differently and I could feel that not overtly not like ew you're gay you know it wasn't like that but it was just you could feel like oh there I felt it especially once we got engaged because I was one of the last ones in our friend group to get engaged and it's like well you're not really treating me the same way you've treated everyone else who got engaged to dudes you know there

SPEAKER_01:

wasn't a lot of excitement for you around your engagement

SPEAKER_00:

it was it felt there was but it was it felt it was It was very different. Forced in a way or just kind of like, oh, weird. And so when I was telling you about that, when I was like, I don't know, like some stuff, you know, it was more obvious that way. But other things, it was just more subtle. And it was just a feeling like I don't fit in here anymore, you know, and you would come out 10 years before that. So you obviously had leaps and bounds of experience ahead of me.

SPEAKER_01:

It was the first time, though, I felt like a real like shift in friendships though was same thing was when I came

SPEAKER_00:

out yeah and I feel like I don't know I mean I guess I'm just guessing because you and I are both queer and we're like yep happened to me it must happen to all queer people but I'm just I'm just assuming that probably does happen to a lot of people though when they come out even if the people are completely accepting and everything there's just this feeling of like I don't know you said it really well the other day yeah

SPEAKER_01:

I think like my experience was you know so I came out like near the end of college And, you know, so a lot of my friends were still like from high school or friends that I had all college. And they knew me a very specific way. And I think for me, what happened was when I came out, almost everyone was like extremely accepting. Some people like had some questions for me, but people were in general, like very supportive, like very happy for me. And there was like a curiosity around it. This is also like 2009. So people like, oh my God, like I know a gay person. what and so there's like there's like this curiosity there which was which is funny but I think for me I felt it especially that all these people knew me in a very specific way which to me didn't feel like the my most authentic self because for so long I'm like I you probably don't relate to this part of it but just like I'm I don't know I I felt like there was more shame there for me so I'm like portraying what I thought this like successful person should be like successful like straight girl should be like who like had no boyfriends no

SPEAKER_00:

wait just so the people can visualize you had highlights at the time and long hair yeah I can't even cope and there was just

SPEAKER_01:

like it just felt like there was so many parts of myself that I was suppressing and when I came out it was part of the reason why I came out was because it got to this point where I literally could not suppress myself anymore it was like causing panic attacks because I like literally I was like outing myself left and right like unintentionally and so once I felt like once I came out and I was like oh my I can actually be myself I can actually breathe then I what I felt from the people around me was like we don't know who you are like this is an alignment with who we've known you to be and then that it's almost like they're like questioning you as a person and like your character or something but it's like no it's just like I've had to be in this really tight box for so long and now I don't have to and I can't go back in there again and so I think it was hard for people who had known me for a long time to to like catch up with that transition that happened. Cause it, for me, it was, it happened really fast, essentially. Like once I let myself be myself. And so, yeah, I think people struggled with that. And I felt it, especially with my female friends, more than anything. Like my, what's so interesting, my like straight male friends, it was like, I could be myself instantly around them and they didn't care at all. They were just like, this is awesome. You're cool.

SPEAKER_00:

You love a straight dude. You love a straight dude more than me. my best friends I don't

SPEAKER_01:

know why they're great I think they're wonderful don't want to date them but they're awesome so but with women I felt like it was it was really difficult especially and I still can't like pinpoint exactly why but they seem to like struggle the most and so like for a lot of those friends it became like more of a slow pull away on my end also because I also felt like they weren't as invested in like really understanding my experience whereas like my straight guy friends did they care they wanted to know like oh what's it like now and I felt like my female friends it was like there was this awkward tension like they didn't feel like they really wanted to know and I just found myself like really wanting to be around more and more queer people and so it like kind of created this shift in my life where I was prioritizing different friendships at that point

SPEAKER_00:

and I will say just I mean I do I have a lot of understanding for people who it maybe it comes off as not being curious I obviously don't I didn't know you back then I don't know your friends but But I think especially nowadays we see this more where people are just like so scared to say the wrong thing. And I do, I feel bad about that, you know, because of the way that cancel culture and all of that has gotten so heightened at this point that people say the quote unquote wrong thing to me all the time. And I don't think actually any time it's ever been intentional or malicious, you know, when people say something that's like, well, that was deeply offensive, but it's like kind of funny because they really just didn't know. And you can just gently correct them without being like that's it writing review for your business you know it's not like that most obviously be different just

SPEAKER_01:

laugh at it that's what I usually do and then like because they don't know and then just like yeah talk about it

SPEAKER_00:

yeah and so I don't know it's like I do understand that if people sometimes it feels like they're not asking the right questions because it's like even still now most of my friends all of my best friends are straight or at least in hetero relationships I'm trying to bully them out of the closet but they're like I'm just not I'm just not I don't know what to tell you and I'm like but you

SPEAKER_01:

definitely

SPEAKER_00:

want to kiss girls but probably just like a little peck you know and and yeah it's like they it's the friends that I have now they they do ask questions and and everything but there's still there I didn't realize it at the time I realized it more in hindsight of just like oh that was a really kind of like lonely experience to go through that whole coming out process because I didn't even know that I was craving those questions from people until hindsight it wasn't like in the moment that i was like oh i wish someone would just ask me this because usually when i want that i just tell the person i'm like hey can we talk about this do

SPEAKER_01:

you think it's kind of like you kind of came charging right out of the gates super confident and

SPEAKER_00:

super gay yeah and just like

SPEAKER_01:

here i am i'm marrying a woman

SPEAKER_00:

this is me take it or leave it and so they're just like cool she doesn't care so i don't care and

SPEAKER_01:

but yeah and they didn't realize that like their roommate like steps that along the way they would have been like really nice for you to experience like

SPEAKER_00:

the way that okay this is the only way I can equate it to which is I obviously don't know what it feels like to be a person of color in any way I don't of course know what it feels like to live in a black experience you know but when people of color say that you know people saying like oh I don't see color and how they're like but then you don't see me you know and so it's like even if our friend is saying you know like I don't care it doesn't bother me it's like well but I also I don't want to just bypass it all together because it's like my queerness you know it makes me want to cry yeah oh honey but you know what I mean it's like it's a part of me like you have to see that

SPEAKER_01:

yeah and it impacts like so much of our daily interactions like I feel like people say it because they want to be like I support you like I'm here for you but it's like we've had this conversation with many people but it's like you know I think I don't know my experience has been like in being out is that in general I think people have good intentions like for those around them but we also have all these like weird experiences that we have on a daily basis whether it's like going to the doctor or like traveling or like all these things where being queer comes up and is like somewhat confronting in this like we get weird questions or stares or whatever and It's like our families, for example, don't understand that. But you guys live a normal life. Everything's great. It's like, well, yeah, everything is great. And we are confident. We present that. But things happen. And it's like we want to be able to share that with the people around us and have them care and be invested in maybe some of the unique challenges that we experience.

SPEAKER_00:

And support is amazing, obviously. It starts there. But it's support and understanding are two different things. We're just even craving that understanding. Yeah. so so yeah I was I all of this I feel like my coming out process was I can't remember if you said this on did you say this on air or no this was at our girls night the other night when when you were saying like two years into us dating all of a sudden I was like honey I have to tell you something like I'm bi and you're like I know

SPEAKER_01:

you're like no but I'm I just realized attracted to men and I don't want that to hurt your feelings and I was like honey I know You're like, but do you understand? I'm like, yes, honey, you're bi. You've always been bi.

SPEAKER_00:

And you're like, have I? I just realized. It's like my coming out process and like getting to that point. It was like, am I this? Am I that? But it's like those first two years, it was that whole just like exploration for me. And especially after meeting basically all of your friends or maybe all of them, except for one. You have one straight guy friend of course well you have a lot of straight guy friends but like your best friends you know everyone else is queer yeah and mostly queer women

SPEAKER_01:

queer women or straight men those are my friends

SPEAKER_00:

yeah and so it was like once I met your friends and was just hanging out with a lot of other queer women it was like oh my god this is so fun this is so nice and it just you feel this level of relatability to total strangers they were strangers for me it

SPEAKER_01:

quenches the thirst on a soul level

SPEAKER_00:

and so then it's like as those friendships of yours kind of started to fade and shift and everything because of the COVID weirdness and us moving around and finally like once I did come out all the way to myself two years later you know and like figured things out it was just like yeah I really want more queer friends you know like that's really what I was craving but then we're living this life where we're splitting time between the states and Nicaragua and obviously Nicaragua where we are in this like tiny fishing village extremely remote there's maybe 20 expats who live there it's not exactly ripe with queerness so we don't have that there even though we love it there but we don't have that sense of community in that regard like the queer

SPEAKER_01:

we're definitely like love and accepted there of course you know we're lost chicas there yeah but no we don't have that like tight knit community that we were searching for

SPEAKER_00:

yeah and then at the time we were splitting our time in Florida which we basically never we were there for like a month each year we did really live there so we didn't have community there and then it just got to the point where like we got to get out of here we're not happy here every time we're in florida we keep trying to leave like as soon as we get back from nika to florida we're like so where are we going to next we cannot stay here yeah and and then we started our road trip around the country for the next over a year living in different airbnbs trying to figure it out and we we have this weird superpower where as soon as we land someplace we kind of know we

SPEAKER_01:

know instantaneously

SPEAKER_00:

at least within 24 hours if this location will

SPEAKER_01:

be good for us or not

SPEAKER_00:

so it's like but we've already rented the place for a month two months three months whatever because we're like well we need to like give it a proper try and we get there we're like no we're not gonna live here like we'll stay here it will be fun but we're not gonna live here so then what's the point of trying to make friends here like we're just passing through essentially so it's tricky when

SPEAKER_01:

you're living a nomadic life I found it especially tricky because it's like again I hate technology we're living a nomadic life. So essentially it's just like impossible to have friendships in the way that I really crave them, which is like, I want to like go to coffee with you. I want to like have a dinner date with you. I don't want to like FaceTime you for 15 minutes or whatever. Like I will, and it's not that I won't do it. I will do it occasionally, but it's like, it's a hurdle for me that I just don't love.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And so then it finally got to that point where like we have to go somewhere that we feel and we circled right back to where we started which was San Diego we had to just go around the country for a little bit just to be like oh yeah this is where we want to be and then came right back to where we started from and then that kind of like admission of loneliness and stuff but it really it got it was like really hard for a while I don't know even how long I don't know how long it was it kind of felt like it crept up not out of nowhere but it seemed

SPEAKER_01:

like it hit you all at once

SPEAKER_00:

yeah but it had been there for a while but then all of a sudden like when it hit it really and maybe it was like the combination of the miscarriage and like just all of this stuff happening but then it was like no we need friends like in real life friends because I still have my core group of friends who I talk to in my 50 million hour long voice notes and I love that but we live some of them live in other countries different state you know like nowhere close I see them maybe once a year if I'm lucky

SPEAKER_01:

you need a local community I think I really felt it like when we were nomadic we were moving around so much there was this kind of like unsettledness to it and like such a fast pace to our life that in a way not having friends around it was like there was so much going on in our life all the time that it filled things that I don't know it made it less obvious that it was like you're lonely of not having We were highly stressed for a while trying to build a resort. having community and friends can fill that space that we were kind of using our nomadic lifestyle for

SPEAKER_00:

yeah and the other thing that i just realized that also changed at that same time so it was like the perfect storm of covid for me coming out not for you but you for you it was the long distance thing and then the other thing was not drinking anymore so you stopped drinking just kind of organically when we first met i had stopped drinking the year before so it's still new so now we're sober we don't party and we're not sober we just don't drink alcohol right you know whatever other things

SPEAKER_01:

happen but um but everyone around us still was and that was like a core part of socialization

SPEAKER_00:

well that but also so there's definitely that because whenever i talk about you know not drinking alcohol anymore same thing on my instagram people are like how do you do it socially and because it is it is different you know it can be hard certain things don't sound as appealing and because you're like I don't want to go there and just deal with drunk people hanging on me but also I still have gone out many times soberly and it is really fun so it's not like you can't have fun and also be sober and not drink but I noticed it more the kind of difficulty when it came the time of us sort of talking about like so how are we going to make new friends because it was like the way we used to make friends before was going out drinking those like more social type of environments, you know? And Sandhya wanted to contribute something. So I don't know. I just felt like that was kind of tricky, you know? Did you feel that at all? I

SPEAKER_01:

did, but I definitely felt that to an extent. I had already really slowed back down on my drinking by the time we had met. And so I was already in a place where I would go out with my friends and not drink at all.

SPEAKER_00:

But they were already your friends. You're not meeting new friends. But the last time you met friends, you were drinking.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean. Going out after drinks or after work drinks, like that kind of stuff. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00:

So much centers around that. And so it's just like, OK. And I've made I've definitely made a lot of friends through yoga before. You know, like usually that was what I would do. I would just start going to a yoga studio. And then eventually I'd start talking to people and I'd always wiggle my way in there somehow. So I've made friends without drinking, but it can be more challenging because it's just like, okay, we work from home also, I should mention. Yeah, it's

SPEAKER_01:

just like, where do you go? Like, where are these elusive friends? Yeah. Right? It's like, okay, we work from home, so we don't have like co-workers around us we can like hang out with.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's like, I don't go to workout classes, you do.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You

SPEAKER_00:

had an F45,

SPEAKER_01:

didn't you? Yeah, I went to F45 a few times. Made friends with a few bros. No, you didn't. Chatted with them at the class. It's like, where do you meet these elusive friends? Like, what do you do? How do you find them? I still don't know to this day.

SPEAKER_00:

I also will say, as far as meeting friends in those workout environments, it totally depends on where you are, what style of the workout. Because it's like some towns, cities, whatever, people are not super friendly you know they're like not staying for shavasana they're leaving they're like i'm getting out of here i'm going back to work so it really depends where you are it doesn't work everywhere and anywhere but it can work you know it can be a method

SPEAKER_01:

let me just say that no one has ever talked to me after i've been to a yoga class probably because when they see me do yoga they're like who is this girl whereas when they see you do yoga they're like whoa look at that girl i want to talk to her like no one's ever gonna talk to me after a yoga class you'd be like Who is this awkward person who can barely like

SPEAKER_00:

stand up right? No. No. Yes. But people talk to me in non-yoga classes too. It's not just yoga. You're so cute. No. I think I'm just maybe more approachable. I talk to people too though. Like I'll go up to them and be like, hey, I almost always thank the teacher for the class or just– I don't know. If you see someone around, you're like, hey, I can't believe I'm seeing you here again. I don't know. I just strike up conversation. You're a little chatty Cathy. Yeah. Yeah. which is weird because I'm also shy on the inside. So it doesn't, I don't know. So anyways, we got to this point and it's like, I'm lonely. What do we do? And also like feeling embarrassed about being lonely and then I'm also wondering. It's hard to feel that way because it's like, yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

I felt embarrassed too. Like I can relate to that. I'm just like, wait, like why don't I have the level of friendships that I want around me or the depth of friendships that I want around me or like the quantity. Yeah, like I miss having a friend group. Like remember having friend groups? Like I had one in college and then I had like my friend group in San Francisco and there's just like, there's something really fun about having this like group dynamic. It can be fun and it can also be toxic as fuck. It can also be the worst. It can be the worst. Like so clicky, so toxic, whatever. But there is something really fun about having this like group dynamic. Don't get me wrong. I also love like really deep one-on-one friendships but having that like group dynamic just like brings this like there's more energy to it like yeah like friend trips and I don't know these kind of things

SPEAKER_00:

it okay so whenever I would watch like say something like sex in the city or when we're watching somewhere I turn pretty and the moms are like the ultimate best friends and when I watch stuff like that because the way a lot of the times female friendships are portrayed in movies and they obviously it's supposed to be kind of dramatized and everything but I'm like something is wrong with me like why I don't have a person like that in my life and I have super good friends but I don't have a person like that like I don't have this like soulmate best friend I don't have that either I

SPEAKER_01:

don't think there's anything wrong with you I think some people have that but like I don't know if it's our personality types or whatever we're manifestors but I don't have that either I

SPEAKER_00:

don't know that I want that though but that's the thing that's the way that I'm like oh is something wrong with me because I don't think I even want that like that I only have that much energy for my marriage I can't give that same level of commitment and energy to a friend even if I am super loyal I'm very you know I'm like always there for my friends but it's like that it's like sibling

SPEAKER_01:

level

SPEAKER_00:

intimacy is like I don't I just I feel spread too thin if I'm giving that to literally anyone other than you and then it's like and then next will be our kids one day you know but and then it's like so then after that I'm gonna have even less to give

SPEAKER_02:

but

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know I would definitely feel that way and and with the friend group thing you see this stuff and it's like you kind of I would at least sort of romanticize like oh the friend group but then I think about the reality of when I was in like big girl friend groups and I was like actually I don't know if I liked that that much you know or like

SPEAKER_01:

weird things happened and yeah weird overly dramatic things would happen for sure

SPEAKER_00:

yeah so now we're here we're queer and we have

SPEAKER_01:

friends we do which is crazy i didn't know this moment was gonna happen it happened so quickly i wasn't expecting it

SPEAKER_00:

and okay this is also one thing i just want to say to anyone who's listening who's just been nodding this whole time like yes yes i can relate to all of this and i've also felt embarrassed and all this stuff this is exactly why i like to just say things out loud it's the same reason when i told my friend that i had a crush on a girl you it just like takes the power out of it I feel like when it's inside of you you build it up and it festers and it becomes this bigger thing than it needs to be instead of just admitting yeah I feel lonely right now and also it feels a little embarrassing to feel lonely like I I also feel

SPEAKER_01:

like you saying it though like called in friends almost

SPEAKER_00:

exactly it

SPEAKER_01:

was like you took the power of it but now it's like now I'm telling the world like I want friends

SPEAKER_00:

exactly I haven't said that out loud before exactly You have to ask for what you want. And then you also have to act on it. You can't just be like, so I'm going to stay on my couch and wait for someone to ring my doorbell. Yeah, you have

SPEAKER_01:

to participate in your own life and show up.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, but it really– So how did we make our new friends? Okay, this is the problem. People are going to be like, great, I have my notepad out. Give me the tips. This was sheer luck. Our neighbor–

SPEAKER_01:

This was participating in our life, showing up in our life. What? What do you mean? How we made our friends. The

SPEAKER_00:

first friend. Well, not

SPEAKER_01:

really. the first friend it only takes one friend that's the thing I learned that in San Francisco as well I made one friend at work and it opened the doors to all the friends that I had in

SPEAKER_00:

San Francisco because they have friends and they'll be like they start inviting you to the things yes but our neighbor in our house who literally shares a fence line with us like we are super neighbors we're extremely close our decks are connected yeah and we met her when we first moved in she was cool and everything I was in this haze of the miscarriage and just like generally unwell we

SPEAKER_01:

also basically live in a retirement community which I don't know how this happens but everywhere we go we end up in retirement communities and so typically our friends that we meet are like in their 60s or 70s 70s

SPEAKER_00:

or plus because and they

SPEAKER_01:

love

SPEAKER_00:

us we have no problem and we love them making we

SPEAKER_01:

love old people but this person was like in her early 30s and we're like oh that's different and

SPEAKER_00:

she was just super cool she was really she had dogs and we have this little grass area in front of our houses and so her dogs would be out there we'd take our dog out there and so we were just kind of like chit chat sometimes and then we left and went to Nicaragua one month three weeks or something after we had moved into this house and we're gone for several months so that's the same thing it's like okay we have no chance of ever deepening relationships and then we come back and I'm also just in a better place to where I can socialize and want to talk to people and and she was just cool and I was like oh I like her and we started chatting and then see this is what I'm saying I'll be like oh let me get your numbers so that I ask for numbers all the time I

SPEAKER_01:

would never ask for a phone number ever

SPEAKER_00:

and so then now I'm like well this is also just convenient you're our neighbor we leave the country all the time if we want to yeah you know things happen if we're like hey can you check on this whatever so she just ended up being this fucking angel sent from God who all and she one day when we were with the dogs just chatting and I was saying something about how it's hard for us to come back from Nicaragua because even though we don't have a queer community there we have community there and we're constantly surrounded by people because we live and run a resort there so there's people in and out all the time and there's just this kind of like really it's like a nice sort of chaos you know where you're just constantly surrounded by people and then coming back here everything feels so separate so like people don't make eye contact they don't say hi it's very you're everyone is in their separate lives and she's like yeah I get that and she's like well do you have community here I'm like no and I again I was feeling kind of embarrassed I'm like not really like we kind of just moved here so and she's like do you want to hang out with my friends she's like I think you'll really like them you should hang out with us and I didn't want to be like too thirsty I'm like yes please yes please inside I'm like sure trying to play it cool and she has my number so it's kind of like balls in her court you know yeah and then she introduced us to her friends who are really cool amazing we're obsessed we're obsessed we have like really big friend crushes right now

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

and we just had a girls night with them a few nights ago and I said to you when we came back I was like it's so nice to hang out with women who are just so stoked for you you know because they had seen I posted so

SPEAKER_01:

supportive

SPEAKER_00:

on my Instagram oh you they were like you just uh you just finished your book that's so they were just genuinely so excited for me instead of like oh cool what it about you know like that or when they

SPEAKER_01:

found out we're launching the podcast they're

SPEAKER_00:

like all excited for us I can't wait to listen so so support and genuinely supportive

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

you know and it was like it feels so good to just have these healthy very normal these are very normal things but surprisingly also not typical sometimes yeah and it just felt so good

SPEAKER_01:

so it's been so nice and some of them are queer which is really cool

SPEAKER_00:

which is really fun that was one of the best surprises and one of them has a lesbian mom who invented lesbianism

SPEAKER_01:

she is amazing we

SPEAKER_00:

have to have

SPEAKER_01:

her on the podcast at some point honestly she like created the women's studies program at her college in the 70s she was the first one to

SPEAKER_00:

graduate with a women's studies degree and she was like oh and she's I don't know how old she is probably in her 60s I don't know the same age as my parents or so and she was like oh yeah I'll invite you guys to come and hang out with you know the lesbian meetups and we're like please please bring us and she's like I mean they're all really old and weird and we're like no that's that's literally perfect we love an elder queer we love an elder

SPEAKER_01:

queer tell us stories yeah it's it's been amazing we've been super lucky and then obviously like

SPEAKER_00:

producer Lex

SPEAKER_01:

yes

SPEAKER_00:

who you can't see but she's here our

SPEAKER_01:

also favorite local queer she's amazing

SPEAKER_00:

yes yes yes

SPEAKER_01:

it's just been cool to see like I think it's just like it just takes like one or two people and like quickly your network can expand because you know now Lex is like you gotta come to queer surf events exactly oh my god what is this how did I not know about this and how that literally sounds like probably the coolest thing exactly in the entire world like I'm just dying to go exactly and so I don't know I think that's the thing that I like realized because when I moved to San Francisco as a same thing I moved there didn't know a single person and it was just like it just took one friend it's not about it doesn't have to be this like whole overwhelming experience just takes one person and then things can change and I think that shows up in so many different parts of your life where it's like you just take this one thing and then things start to snowball and so it's cool that this process has been like a reinforcement of that in our lives

SPEAKER_00:

yeah so I feel like if you're out there if you're feeling lonely then admit it in some way shape or form even if it's just to yourself and then also you do have to put yourself out there but then like you have to show up you have to show up but also it's not as overwhelming as you might think when it's just one person you know and and then also when they invite you to things say yes yes because that was the thing is when the neighbor when our neighbor friend invited us to she's like want to come for fourth of july was the first time she like really invited us to a more like social thing and i just had surgery on my ass eyes okay I literally looked like Frankenstein I was so or not frozen so swollen I had two black eyes stitches in my eyelids and I'm like we're going we cannot say no to this are

SPEAKER_01:

you sure I was like I don't know

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know that I want to go to this thing I'm like no we have to go because if we say no to the first invite then she's probably not going to invite us again like you gotta go just wear sunglasses and a hat and you go and so we did until I felt like my eyes were going to fall out and then I was like I gotta go

SPEAKER_01:

home yeah we did it and

SPEAKER_00:

it was awesome you have to say yes and then also just like one other thing I'll throw out there if you're like I feel good I got friends I'm fine if you have the space and you do notice the lonely little street dog scragglers like us who are just kind of begging for scraps invite that person in you know what I mean yeah if you feel a genuine connection I really hate

SPEAKER_01:

that saying no new friends you know like people say no new friends do people still say that I don't know but like people people who say that I really don't like that I mean those are the people I don't want to be around anyways but like don't say that always new friends

SPEAKER_00:

yeah I can understand if you're like my life is just really full and I have nothing else to give to new people

SPEAKER_01:

especially at certain phases in your life I think that like makes a lot of sense like maybe you have like young kids or whatever you know maybe you just started a new business like that was us for a while and I totally understand but also like then at times I think things do ebb and flow and yeah um And yeah, always new friends.

SPEAKER_00:

Stay open. Yeah. So yeah, I'm very curious to see what happens once we do finally have kids, putting it out there one day.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I imagine it will be a difficult transition for sure. Like how do you prioritize people in this new phase of life? Like it'll be really interesting, but I'm enjoying this phase that we're in right now that we get to before we have a child that we get to like invest in these friendships and really build community here so that when our baby does come we have like it does take it I feel like it will take a village and it's

SPEAKER_00:

like we don't have and I want that that lives here anything you know we only have friends and I want I

SPEAKER_01:

want our friends to be like involved in our kids lives like that sounds really I don't know inspirational inspirational to me

SPEAKER_00:

I

SPEAKER_01:

love it

SPEAKER_00:

I can't wait to see well obviously keep you guys posted as far as what happens when that chapter comes but

SPEAKER_01:

we've been on quite the friendship journey

SPEAKER_00:

yeah hopefully this was helpful to somebody out there but you know how we always close this podcast how's that who's the problem

SPEAKER_01:

who's the problem do you want to go first or do you want me to go first

SPEAKER_00:

um i think you go you go first i'll go first because i think last time you did and don't worry you're not in the hot seat today

SPEAKER_01:

doesn't mean you're

SPEAKER_00:

not the problem because you probably still are in some other way i feel like i'm

SPEAKER_01:

just always the problem

SPEAKER_00:

that's part of the psychological

SPEAKER_01:

warfare so i think i think you just convinced me that i am

SPEAKER_00:

no honey but i'm not

SPEAKER_01:

okay you are not you're not my problem either so no

SPEAKER_00:

i'm going okay

SPEAKER_01:

okay

SPEAKER_00:

cool okay so i will say that you did trigger this so i i told you you're like so

SPEAKER_01:

i

SPEAKER_00:

am amazing just a little bit literally just reinforced it honey a little bit of a backstory you're like I'm gonna have such a hard time going over the who's the problem every week I'm like no just have a running list in your notes app of weird things that happen when you feel annoyed or whatever so you were the one that actually said this that made me add it to my notes app but it wasn't directly about you we we were doing running errands or something and you said something something like hurry up ma'am or you called me ma'am and so this was wasn't about you I was just thinking in general when people call me ma'am it feels like a direct attack and I'm like excuse me you mean me the miss why why are you calling me ma'am and obviously you I didn't feel that about that's what I'm saying like you're not actually the problem but then I'm like you

SPEAKER_01:

like it that started happening at a certain age or like

SPEAKER_00:

oh yeah oh that's what I'm saying or am I the problem for my ageism you know what I mean it's a real tough because it's like i just shouldn't care and like ma'am is a privilege and we just said we love elder queers like why can't i just be one already but also like don't call me ma'am thank you

SPEAKER_01:

to be fair i think i'm with you on this one like don't call me ma'am if someone

SPEAKER_00:

called

SPEAKER_01:

you ma'am that's just or sir i get sir a lot so it's like don't call me either like i think can we just like pick something else because nobody wants to be called ma'am but

SPEAKER_00:

but don't you feel like sir isn't they call young men sir Oh yeah. They don't have a different, why do we have, I'm just realizing this, why do we have one for younger and one for older but just all guys are called sir?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know. Misogyny. Do you remember when we were in the airport and we were about to miss our flight so I sent you and Sandy ahead to the gate and you guys were like running and then I was like carrying all of our bags like literally every piece of luggage we had was on me. Yeah. And so I'm on this escalator and this guy is trying to get past me but I have like all of our stuff and he's like, sir and I look back I'm like yeah he's like can I get around he's like I mean ma'am I mean sir I mean I don't know man but like he didn't tell me he's like but no offense but I gotta go I was just like did that just really happen why does this always happen at the airport

SPEAKER_00:

uh see this is what I'm talking about when people say offensive things but you're like they're just doing their best like I just laughed they're just in a rush they don't know what to call you so yeah we need I get it it's confusing hey you like what's the just non-gendered way of saying that also it's like that sounds

SPEAKER_01:

weird too I mean you can literally just be like excuse me can I get around you like yeah something sounds like it's missing it doesn't it really doesn't okay but so yeah I think I'm with you and then I think the people who are saying ma'am they're the problem

SPEAKER_00:

but I'm just saying it could be me it could be me and I should just not care I don't think so people you need to vote people you sirs and ma'ams and misses whoever is listening out there you need to vote in the stories and let us know who the problem is there yeah who's your problem

SPEAKER_01:

okay so actually similar to the airport theme because this happens to me especially in airports but it happens to me everywhere gas stations wherever anytime I have to use a public restroom usually one of two things happens usually sometimes people will say like hey you're in the wrong place or they will they will like glare at me to let me know that i'm in the wrong place but i'm not in the wrong place

SPEAKER_03:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

and so um so yeah i don't i don't know who's the problem i actually think i might be the problem honey for looking the way that i do i think it's obvious like it's i i am very understanding that people could be confused by me and they're not doing it okay um from a place of like bad intent i don't think so

SPEAKER_00:

i know because like even just you talking about this makes me want to kill someone because

SPEAKER_01:

the thing is like I have seen guys come into the women's restroom and then they get so embarrassed. So it's like I think they're trying to spare me from embarrassment. But then like I'm like, no, but I am supposed to be here. And then I just like hustle into the stall.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. But when you say looking the way you do, you just have short hair. What? Why can't you have short hair? I can't. Do you know what I mean? Like you're not. That's just looking the way you do is just that. That's it. I think it might be my fault because I can't understand. So my people would

SPEAKER_01:

be confused.

SPEAKER_00:

So the other option is growing your hair out again and getting the highlights? No,

SPEAKER_01:

that's not the option. That's not the option.

SPEAKER_00:

But I'm saying you're not the problem just because you have a boyish charm. My little Jonathan Taylor Thomas.

SPEAKER_01:

I love how defensive you get over me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because it's so– I mean, I can understand as a woman if you feel like a man is entering your space, then you can feel defensive and everything. But then it's like if they say something and you're like, no, I'm supposed to be here. then

SPEAKER_01:

to be fair once I've said that no one has ever like said anything weird but I know lots of people who have yeah and I'm always kind of like worried that that situation will arise and I don't know like how I would handle that but I mean you know yeah I always just feel a little bit awkward and uncomfortable well obviously this is like not a fun I just I just want to pee you know

SPEAKER_00:

yeah so if people vote that you're the problem then we have a problem because that would be

SPEAKER_01:

you can vote

SPEAKER_00:

that I'm the problem because I think I might be whatever you want freedom of speech but I I don't understand how you could be the problem there but I might I might be biased

SPEAKER_01:

well let us know what you think I don't know

SPEAKER_00:

yeah we did it honey episode two in the book we did it we love you guys and we will chat next week yeah bye see you soon