Wives Not Sisters

Queer Culture: Lesbians vs Bi Girls

• Kayla Nielsen and Alix Tucker • Season 1 • Episode 7

Share episode

This week, Alix and Kayla dive into the long-standing dynamics between bisexual women and lesbians—myths, stereotypes, and the cultural nuances that shape queer relationships. From playful debates (Renee Rapp vs. Cara Delevingne) to candid reflections on identity, cancel culture, and representation in media, this episode explores queerness, binaries, and belonging in both private and public conversations.


⏰ Timestamps

00:01 – Intro + community shoutouts

01:21 – Bi vs. Lesbian: celebrity edition

05:46 – History of the “feud” & The L Word rewatch

09:01 – Cancel culture and honest conversations

13:17 – Stereotypes, myths, and personal rules

23:20 – The dating pool & “gay math”

32:08 – Marriage, monogamy & bisexual identity

47:08 – Queer street cred & bi representation

57:32 – Betty Who & Renee Rapp discourse

01:07:37 – “Who’s the Problem” segment: WikiFeet + socks


#QueerPodcast #LGBTQVoices #Bisexuality #LesbianVisibility #QueerLove #CancelCulture #RepresentationMatters #QueerIdentity #PodcastClips #WivesNotSisters

Connect with us on social media: IG: @wivesnotsisterspod | TikTok: @wivesnotsisterspod

Follow our hosts on Instagram: @kaylalanielsen @alix_tucker


SPEAKER_00:

hey guys it's alex and kayla and we're married not related definitely

SPEAKER_01:

codependent but in a cute way and we're back are so excited that you're here before we jump in you know that i have to just say thank you thank you thank you to everyone who's been leaving reviews commenting on the socials on spotify it's so i love that you can do that now that you can come did you Do you know that?

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Oh, I need to go look. That sounds so cool. Yeah. You can leave comments on a Spotify episode. Whoa. So whenever we're saying like, oh, go vote or telling you these things with who's the problem, we do put it on our socials and we love when you join us there. But also you can comment on Spotify or on YouTube. So anyways, thank you. And please keep reviewing and sharing because that's how we grow. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

And guess what? What? It's my turn to lead this week. Oh, no.

SPEAKER_01:

What do you mean? Oh, no. I don't know. I just got

SPEAKER_00:

nervous. Why? I don't know. This is going to be exciting. Okay, okay. I'm putting you on the spot with something really fun this week, which is I'm going to give you a series of two people you get to choose from.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

One is a bi girl, or I guess a bi person, and one is a lesbian.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And we're going bi's versus lesbians. And you're going to tell us who you'd rather date.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. In this series. Okay. Very exciting. All right. The first one is Renee Rapp or Cara Delevingne? Renee. Okay. She's

SPEAKER_01:

my queen. I love her.

SPEAKER_00:

Chalk up one for the lesbian column. I'll take it. Kristen Stewart or Miley Cyrus?

SPEAKER_01:

Ugh. kristin i mean it's just how how do you compete i mean miley is also of course miley and iconic but it's just like kristin

SPEAKER_00:

kristin stewart and charlie's angels i just have to say her haircut her outfit okay relax i basically just want to be her in that movie okay she's so so attractive

SPEAKER_01:

that's probably like one of the things that people google it's like am i gay or do i just want to be this person this happens all the time i'm

SPEAKER_00:

gay and And I want to be Kristen Stewart.

SPEAKER_01:

But it's so confusing when you're a gay girl or a bi girl because it's like the feeling is so

SPEAKER_00:

similar.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Shannon Beveridge or Fletcher? Fletcher. Okay. Okay. Shane or

SPEAKER_01:

Alice? Ugh. I love them both for different reasons. But if we're dating, Alice.

SPEAKER_00:

Because Shane, I mean. She's a better partner and friend, I think.

SPEAKER_01:

I would love to be her friend. Well, minus the whole her hooking up with Jenny's girlfriend thing. But also it's Jenny. So, you know, maybe it's well-deserved. But Alice is a good partner.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Ellen DeGeneres or Drew Barrymore? Drew. Also, you just found out that Drew was bi.

SPEAKER_01:

I know. I didn't even– I'm like trying to think. I'm like, did I know that? And she's like the cutest person in the whole world. In my mind, kind of everyone in Hollywood is a little queer because it's like these are all theater kids. And I don't know. It's just like I'm sure everyone's a little fluid. But yeah, Drew is, again, a queen.

SPEAKER_00:

Fair enough. Okay, cool. And then G Flip or Jojo Siwa?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, God.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm going G flip because Jojo is just a child in my mind. And that's so it has nothing to do with all of her lore and everything that, by the way, spoiler alert, we are doing a Jojo Siwa lore episode next week. So you'll have to tune in for that. It's not because of that. It is simply because in my mind, she is a child. And that's obviously disgusting. Not because she's disgusting, but because,

SPEAKER_00:

you know. Fair enough. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And G flip is

SPEAKER_00:

also like the bow era was a little bit, you know, weird. It was a little bit much. But G-Flip's cool. Yeah. I can see it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and beautiful and fun. And I mean, yeah, I think they'd

SPEAKER_00:

be

SPEAKER_01:

a riot.

SPEAKER_00:

So what's so great about this game was that it's a perfect tie

SPEAKER_01:

between the bi's and the

SPEAKER_00:

lesbian, which is like, you

SPEAKER_01:

know how I know you're bi. You can't make up your mind. That is not. Okay. First of all, we're going to do some bi myth busting in this episode. It's not about not being able to make up my mind it's about I don't want to why does it have to be one or the other why can't I like lesbians sometimes and like bi people some other times why do I have to choose and then like dudes some other times well I said bi people so those could be in the dude category fair enough but you know

SPEAKER_00:

well I think it's just very fitting for this episode that it was a perfect split down the middle

SPEAKER_01:

but this is why I say my bisexuality is so much more than my sexual orientation like this is my My identity, my personality in so many ways.

SPEAKER_00:

It comes out all the time.

SPEAKER_01:

All the time. In weird

SPEAKER_00:

ways.

SPEAKER_01:

And I love it. Well, I love it too. I might be a little biased, but...

SPEAKER_00:

You're

SPEAKER_01:

my

SPEAKER_00:

bi-con. Bias. So, well, we've been hinting at what we're talking about today. Yeah. What we're talking about today is going to be basically the... ongoing feud between lesbians and bisexuals

SPEAKER_01:

yeah more specifically i would say bi girls or bi bi girls and lesbians non-binary people in general but i don't really feel like lesbians have a feud with bi men

SPEAKER_00:

yeah and i feel like okay so i came out i don't know 17 years ago at this point something like that almost 20 years ago so crazy and so back in like 2009 and it's been so funny because we've been re-watching the l word which we're going to get into later in a future episode we're gonna do we're gonna do a queer culture episode on the l word and you know that was kind of filmed by like 2004 through 2009 so during the time i was coming out and there the feud is strong in the l word if you go back in and watch it so this has been happening for a long time and i think it's been going back well before that even right yeah i feel like since the dawn of queerness there's been a a feud between bisexual girls and lesbians

SPEAKER_01:

well i don't I mean, I have no idea about the dawn of queerness, but I don't know about that. I'm thinking of like back in biblical times or something. Do I think that lesbians and bi girls were feuding? Probably not. But I know that what we found when we were just because we first started talking about this idea and obviously it was also prevalent because there's been a lot in the current media. Yes. With Jojo, with Fletcher, with Billie Eilish, with Betty Who and the Made It Out podcast. All of that. kind of stuff so there's been a lot of talk about this online and you had said you're like okay but this is this has been happening since at least i came out and so i just did a little quick google and was like when did it start you know and of course again who knows like when it really started but one of the things that it pointed to directly was that radical lesbian manifesto that came out in the early 70s or maybe even 1970 during that peak wave of feminism that was happening

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

so so

SPEAKER_00:

it's been going on for a long time

SPEAKER_01:

yeah and I thought that that was super interesting because it's like I think a lot of people are like oh it's just because of woke culture or it's just because of you know like this kind of modern day political climate and that's actually not true at all

SPEAKER_00:

yeah so we we thought it'd be fun to talk about it especially now more than ever because basically the country is extremely divided yeah it's not just the bison lesbians that are

SPEAKER_01:

divided not just the queer country our

SPEAKER_00:

own little climate and I mean we have in our own house and on our nightly walks which you guys hear about all the time we have spicy conversations in private and we realize like how important it is to also have these types of conversations where there's like two sides to it and two very different arguments and be able to have that also publicly and I feel like a lot of times we don't do that publicly because it's like either you feel like you know you have to be perfect and like politically correct when you're navigating through this or else you'll get canceled and so it can feel really scary I feel like to have you know maybe conversations that you're used to having in private and have them publicly

SPEAKER_01:

yeah and not even just between us but with some of our other queer friends yeah you know we had a girls night on Saturday and we were talking about some of this stuff and it was like oh I would feel scared to record this that and put that out into the world which these are just open honest curious conversations that we're having as we're all just trying to figure out life and so it's funny because initially you started by saying like oh we're excited to have this conversation i'm like are we because

SPEAKER_00:

i feel like we're actually really nervous i've been really struggling with this i'll just be super honest like we're at what i feel is that So I'm not a super online person. I don't like really express my opinions online very frequently. And I see what happens when people do express their opinions. It's like we're so quick to cancel people. Like this cancel culture thing is so strong. I know we all hear it. It's like annoying to even talk about at this point. But it's like what I see is if you hold this belief, then you are a bad person. And therefore, like, you know. You shouldn't. I don't even have a platform, have a voice, whatever. And it's just like people today really struggle to have differing opinions from the people from from people in their lives and maintain relationships. And for me, it's like so that makes me feel nervous, like expressing differing points of views. But I but I also understand to a degree. But I think like what I've chosen to do in my life is like be open to having those differing points of views with people and still maintain relationships and come at things from a place of understanding and curiosity and non-judgment. And It makes the conversations more interesting.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think that the funny thing about that is that, in my opinion, it's like queerness means something different to everyone. There's a definition in the dictionary. Sure, you can look that up and see what the actual definition is. But as far as queerness in your lifestyle, it can mean something different to everyone. And I think a large part of that has to do with breaking binaries. We talk about that all the time with gender binaries. But there's also this really strong binary in thinking where, like you said, it's like if you think this, you're good. if you think this you're bad that's very black and white and there's not a lot of room for nuance not a lot of room for questioning and for me it's like living in my queerness and being queer is staying open and questioning and being able to see both sides and trying to break that binary thinking in myself of not automatically putting someone into a bucket just because of one thing that they said or one thought that they had being like okay but why did they say that or where is that coming from and yeah I mean again I'm sure I'm biased because this is how I move through life and I think most people when you're choosing to move through life in a certain way you of course think think that that's the best way to do it but I do think that the world could benefit from that so much so it's like yes we see that in the lesbian versus bi girl conversation but we see that in our community at large like not just in the world but also within that LGBTQ community where it can get very binary so that's just something that we kind of want to challenge I guess and want to that's one of the reasons to have long form content like this where there's space and time to actually get into it instead of a five second reel or even if you fill up the whole caption on your Instagram you know it still only really scratches the surface so all of that to say we know that this conversation won't be perfect and we are open to feedback. Feedback is very different of being like, hey, this is why this might have felt hurtful or offensive to me or this group. That's very different than saying, oh, this is blank phobic, whichever one, lesphobic, biphobic, homophobic, whatever it is, and therefore we don't like you anymore.

SPEAKER_00:

And you're bad people.

SPEAKER_01:

There's no room for growth.

SPEAKER_00:

Because I think the conversation that we want to have is really around the stereotypes that we've heard or experienced you know in this conversation the fears that we've had because of our own personal experiences as it relates to

SPEAKER_01:

and the myth

SPEAKER_00:

yeah and the myths and and just be able to like openly talk about our experiences and like thoughts that we've had without it being a place of like and now you're this like bad person

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

and so hopefully that this can be a space for that and to like open up these conversations and We feel qualified to talk about it because, not because we're experts, because we're not. And I'm not the most politically correct person in the world. So I'm going to use the wrong terms. I'm going to make mistakes. So are you. That's just who we are. Yeah. But the reason why we feel qualified to have is because we are a lesbian and a bisexual in a marriage. And we faced some of the stereotypes and fears and myths when we first got together. And so we thought like, who better to talk about this than us? Yeah. And my hope for this this conversation I think our hope for this conversation is that you know we can have this discussion and like you know have this be a place where we can just openly talk and make mistakes and like learn and live and navigate through it all

SPEAKER_01:

yeah right yeah and I I mean I just want to say I have faith in our listeners me too that they are also on that same path so yay all of us yay let's

SPEAKER_00:

do this okay so let's talk about how this kind of showed up in our relationship first and for like for those of you who listen to our episode one our love story one of we didn't get into some of these things but when we were first kind of deciding whether or not to be together one of the things that I was showing up with was a list of rules essentially and I love the rule I love rules okay and what I mean by that is I it was essentially a list of like walls and barriers that I had put up from previous relationships or being hurt by other people or witnessing other people being hurt in these types of situations and so I had this like I had this rule book essentially of who I was gonna date who I was not gonna date tell them the rules okay so I had three rules and I'll go through them and why I had them the first one was I think pretty straightforward no long-distance relationships okay I my first girlfriend we were in a long-distance relationship and I just it took so such a toll on us it became so toxic and so sad and I just I'm I also know that for me I'm the type of person like I need to be next to somebody you need quality time I need quality time it's just not something I really felt called to do as a long-term relationship and on the side

SPEAKER_01:

note I had almost only had long-term or not long-term long-distance relationships because of my lifestyle I was living out of a backpack I didn't really have a home so just by nature there was always stretches of time where I wasn't Yeah. I had no problem with it.

SPEAKER_02:

My

SPEAKER_00:

second rule was no baby gays. Basically, I was unwilling to date someone who hadn't already been in a long-term relationship with a woman and like, you know, had experiences with women. And to be

SPEAKER_01:

fair, you were 32. I was 32. You had come out however many years ago. I was

SPEAKER_00:

ready to get

SPEAKER_01:

married. You were ready to get married and you'd already kind of done that phase. You'd already... I had dated many baby

SPEAKER_00:

gays. This is nothing again the baby is, okay? But for me, it's a great responsibility to be the first person that you are dating of the same sex. And for me, it was just a recognition of this is a big experience to go through, to be someone's first. They're usually not ready for a long-term commitment with their first person that they date of the same sex. And there's a lot to navigate in that coming out. experience with your family with your friends and for me it was like I was ready to be with somebody who had that experience and was ready to get married and just to kind of

SPEAKER_01:

put it in perspective for someone who's maybe straight or hasn't had you know a gay relationship it would be like being 32 and being like yeah I don't really want to date someone who's never been in a relationship before

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

you kind of you want someone to have experience by a certain age it's just like I've already done that so I mean I think it is fair enough and it's honestly it's better than than taking it lightly. Because it is a responsibility. It should be taken as such and not taken lightly. It is. And by the way, I was a baby gay. So we're just painting the picture

SPEAKER_00:

here. Well, I'm just going to say that all the rules that I had applied to you. You broke all of my rules. And here we are married, you know, six years later. So, you know, fuck rules. But my

SPEAKER_02:

last rule

SPEAKER_00:

was no bi girls. And

SPEAKER_01:

I'm a little bit embarrassed to say this now.

UNKNOWN:

Don't be embarrassed. I am embarrassed because my wife is a bi con and she's beautiful and sexy and perfect. We love the bi cons. So I'm a little bit embarrassed to say this, but rule number three was no bi girls.

SPEAKER_00:

And the reason behind that was that it was less about my own personal experience, but I had known a lot of people who dated bi girls and they They pretty much all either got left or at the end of their relationship, they ended up dating and therefore marrying men. And so my takeaway from this, and I think this is one of the big myths and stereotypes is like the thing that I felt in my core was like, if you have a choice and you could be with a guy or a girl, it's easier to just be with a dude. So like they're going to just pick the dude anyways, because it's just like going to be easier for them in the end. So why even pursue that? If that's, you know, eventually what they're going to do.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That was like what I felt

SPEAKER_01:

to be true. I think it's more of just an ability. It's not a choice. We say this all the time. We didn't feel like we even had a choice. We had to be together. There was no choice.

SPEAKER_00:

There was no possible way. The universe conspired for us to

SPEAKER_01:

be together. But I had the ability to also love men or to be with men sexually and not feel like this violation, horrible thing that it often feels like to most lesbians. I had the ability to do that. Yeah, so I could choose to be with a man because that would make my life easier. But that doesn't mean I'm choosing the right person because like you are my person. That's right. I am your person. But I think also– I think that that belief of like, oh, well, they're just going to choose a man because it's easier. still is a very heteronormative society so yes it's easier to fit in with the majority the majority being hetero versus the homos but I also think that that kind of belief of oh it's easier or almost better to be with a man it's also kind of like misogyny in there where it's like men are superior that's what I don't necessarily always see it from you but I have felt that when I've heard other lesbians talk about it or and I also I understand where they're coming from because there's this feeling of at least the way that you've explained it to me where it's like it's not just that I feel like they're better it's like I can never be that though that's something I can never be

SPEAKER_00:

I can never give that to you we're not competing we can't compete we are two totally different things

SPEAKER_01:

yeah but there's something about that that makes it feel I don't know it makes it feel worse for women, I feel, than like a man being with a woman and a woman leaving him for another woman. He doesn't necessarily feel as bad. It doesn't seem like than a woman being with a woman and leaving her for a man. There's this feeling of like, oh, that feels like this ultimate betrayal. And this is a huge generalization. I know that there's a ton of space in between, but I don't know. It feels to me like a little bit of just kind of like misogyny there where it's like, men are superior how can i compete with that but you're saying you're not competing i don't know it feels

SPEAKER_00:

i mean no i i can relate to that a little bit where you're just like it's it's just a tricky a tricky thing but then also like what i've realized is that it's it's also not just like oh they're gonna end up with a guy anyways it's also just like the queer dating pool is so much smaller than the straight dating pool. So if you're bi, the chance of you meeting a dude that you're attracted to versus like a woman who's queer that you're attracted to, it's just like there's so many more of them. It's like 10 to 1. So it's like, well, they're just going to have a lot more male options. This is just simple gay math. It's just gay math over

SPEAKER_01:

here. Okay, we're

SPEAKER_00:

just doing gay stats. So I think that's as well like why I... It's easier. Part of why I thought that was, well, it's just like, well, she has way more... options with guys as well and maybe she never found her you know female partner or female soulmate and it was I don't know and that's part of the why you see like that the numbers game of that

SPEAKER_01:

yeah so those were your three roles I was all of those things or you know the long distance I'm obviously bi I didn't know that I was bi at the time like I didn't have that definition of myself but it was something and we talked about this in our love story in episode one how I was kind of withholding from you that I'd been with women before you know sexually or even just like casually dated a woman before and part of the reason I withheld that is because I felt like oh you're gonna think I don't know like it just didn't feel gay enough it felt like oh you're just gonna see me as another bi girl who's using girls for experiments or I don't know like it just didn't feel like enough to be like yes I've had experiences with women before but I've owned had long term relationships with men so I don't know I felt almost like guilty and embarrassed and I just felt weird about it I felt weird about telling you on top of knowing yes if I told you then you would know I was flirting with you all like there

SPEAKER_00:

was you felt like I would judge you and be like you're not queer enough so I'm not gonna be interested in you

SPEAKER_01:

yeah but that was after you had made the comment to me about bi girls like I didn't just think that out of nowhere it was because I was like oh okay I know how you think about bi girls where it's just kind of Like it's a phase. It's not almost real is kind of how I don't remember the exact comment that you had made, but it was something along those lines where it's like, oh, whatever, like bi girls. They just kind of like, whatever.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know what I said, but I'm sure I said something stupid. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

I don't remember what it was, but I was like, oh God, am I that? And then I felt guilty because I was like, did I use women? But by the way, the girl that I dated was also bi, so I don't

SPEAKER_00:

think so. I know. It's tricky because it's like, I think. so that is like a big reason why I feel like the lesbians have hardened against bi girls is like that feeling of being used and I think it comes in a few different forms so I think like one is just I think it happens all the time which is girls who are like make out with their girlfriends but it's like for guys attention it's like this like centering around the male gaze like I'll hook up with a girl basically like for guys attention and so I feel like that piece of it is just like that doesn't feel good of course that part of it but there's like I think there's other elements to it which is like my experience was when I was really young and going to all the gay bars in my early 20s an experience that I would have many times was that bi girls would come to the gay bars like with their boyfriends but they you wouldn't know their boyfriends were there at first and they'd be like trying to bring you home like they'd be like trying to proposition you for a threesome and then you realize like oh they're like they're here with their boyfriend they're like trying to find someone to like hook up with

SPEAKER_02:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

and it's like I don't want to go home with you and your boyfriend like I am a lesbian like I want I'll hook up with you and it just feels like I don't know what it feels like fully but it's like okay you're it's like are you doing this for you or are you doing this for your boyfriend's attention

SPEAKER_01:

even I don't think it matters I think even if she was doing it for herself it still is using you because it's like not only do you not want to hook up with the boyfriend you wouldn't even hook up with her if the boyfriend was just watching no you don't want a man to be involved in your sexual experience at all period

SPEAKER_00:

right and so it just feels like this like lack of respect yeah of like you coming into this space and then you're trying to like convince me to have a threesome with you and your boyfriend like ow why are you here I don't want this

SPEAKER_01:

yeah and it I mean I just think in general for the most part okay it's like yes maybe if my wife is sexualizing me and objectifying me it's like kind of cute and sweet sometimes sometimes but in general I would say we don't really like that not really yeah you know and so it's like I don't know I associate that with kind of being more of a man thing to do to women and then when women do that to other women it's like what are you doing you know you know better than that

SPEAKER_00:

yeah don't sexualize me that way for their guys I think or

SPEAKER_01:

it's just that it's like that brainwash Yeah. You see it talked about. Do you know who Brandi Glanville

SPEAKER_00:

is? Was she a housewife or something like that? She was a

SPEAKER_01:

housewife. I think you've told me about her. And she was an early Beverly Hills housewife, so back in the more early 2000s. And she, in her book and stuff, she would call herself a waist-up lesbian. So even just things like that where it's like, I don't know, it feels disrespectful. You know, it's like, that's not... Because there's something about it to be like, oh yeah, I would kiss a girl, but ew, I would never go down on her. There's something that's– it seems

SPEAKER_00:

mean. Well, what about I would hook up with a girl and date a girl, but I'll never marry one. Yeah. I'll only marry

SPEAKER_01:

a guy. It's just kind of like you're never enough. It's this– I don't know. I don't know what that is. Is that also misogyny? Is that– I don't know what that is, but it feels just mean. And I think it's most of the time unintentional. I don't think the person's trying to be mean, but it makes the girl feel like it play thing like an object and that's what I mean by sexualized like you're just objectified totally

SPEAKER_00:

because my thing is everyone's allowed to have preferences of course and if that's how you feel right which is like I'll date a girl or hook up with a girl but I won't marry one like respect but it feels disrespectful to be on the receiving end of that as a lesbian because it's like it feels like you're just using us like you're just experimenting with us to use us as part of your like sexual journey but ultimately you'll never take us seriously for whatever reason and so for me that's why I just like I've first of all I've heard so many people say that so many people like in my life our friends have said that to us like lots of people in our life I've heard kind of say that of like and I think you would probably have been in that category before you met me right you probably would have said like yeah I'll hook up with a girl but I'm only gonna marry a guy

SPEAKER_01:

it was I never felt that. It was more that I just literally didn't see myself marrying a woman. Again, I didn't even realize I was bi. I just thought everybody likes both. It is normal, but I just thought this is how everyone is. I didn't even realize I needed to come out. Yeah. Yeah, it was more that it was just, it wasn't even in my awareness. The same way that so many gay people talk about that, how they're like, oh, I didn't even, it sounds so silly to say, and I think it's harder for younger generations to understand this in 2025 of how you don't realize that you could marry the same sex because it is everywhere now and in media and stuff. But it just, it wasn't that way when we grew up. So I just, it just wasn't in my awareness of something that was going to be for me and I think It is tricky because it doesn't mean you aren't allowed to have those preferences. Like you said, you're allowed to– and it is really hard, I would imagine, being a baby gay. And you are kind of experimenting because you are figuring yourself out. But it's just making sure that you have open communication. You're not treating that person like an object. You're telling them where you're at. And I think it's very different to say, I don't know what I want yet. I don't know if I want a long-term relationship yet versus, oh, I would never marry a woman. You know, it's totally different to kind of act like it's gross or weird. Yeah. So it's like it is important and you are allowed to have those preferences. I think it is important to communicate those, but just try to be respectful when you do.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I mean, I totally get it. The sexuality is such a spectrum. Like everyone always talks about that. And there's lots of people are like, oh, yes, I'll kiss a girl or I'll hook up with one or I'll date one and like various levels. And that's totally fine. fine it's I think it's just like it feels disrespectful to be on the receiving on that if it's like not handled super well

SPEAKER_01:

yeah and I think it is fair that it's some women if you say oh I don't want to marry a woman maybe you've already had relationships with women and you're like I just get along I don't understand how this could be possible but I get along better with men in relationships like my relationships are smoother with men again I call do you feel like fake news on that

SPEAKER_00:

but do you feel like at this point like you're the opposite we're like if we weren't together yeah because of some i died a

SPEAKER_01:

tragedy don't even

SPEAKER_00:

say i'm not dying but you know if something happened you're like i yeah i could date a guy but i could

SPEAKER_01:

never marry one kind of i don't even know if i could date i feel more like i could hook up with a guy but i don't know if i could date him because and i've told you this before too where and we'll never kind of know that in relation like i only have long-term relationships with men we met when i was 31 so i had had multiple long-term long-term adult relationships with men and there was always this thing that felt like it was missing it never felt gendered it didn't feel like oh I'm only I'm fantasizing about women being with this it wasn't like that for me but it always felt like this itch that couldn't be scratched and what I think it was now was it was not just that they weren't a woman it was just like my queerness wasn't fully expressed because I didn't realize that

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

and also they just weren't my person so it's like maybe even if I was dating only women at that time and I was fully queer maybe I would still feel that way like oh something is missing

SPEAKER_02:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

but I do think it is a combination of those two things so it's like it would be really hard for me to be in a queer relationship marriage for years and then all of a sudden go back to being straight even though I'm still queer but being when I mean being straight it's like being in a straight relationship being in a straight world that would be really hard

SPEAKER_00:

I know because your queerness like has to go back into a box because you're like living in the straight world

SPEAKER_01:

unless like I said unless it was with a bi guy because then I feel like we would there would be this understanding there sure where you you're still in this

SPEAKER_00:

queer relationship and then all of your friends would be queer as well so you'd have like queer culture around

SPEAKER_01:

yeah that's what it is it's not it's not just

SPEAKER_00:

it's the culture that's like around you because it's like if you're in a straight relationship but you're bi it's like you live in the

SPEAKER_01:

straight world but you're still me being with a man even if he was a bi man and depending on how he looked and presented and everything it's like we still would be treated as a straight couple in the world which is that in and of itself is very different you know of down to oh we want to go on vacation this year where can we go we can go anywhere we can do whatever we want you know we're straight privilege yeah so it would be it would be different you're still living in a straight world you're getting that straight privilege but if you at least have some of the culture around you and at least have that understanding within that person because it's like yeah I've dated guys before where they knew that I also liked girls and they were like oh cool yeah cool

SPEAKER_00:

yeah yeah they're like sweet that means threesomes right

SPEAKER_01:

well not it's like I actually I told you this I would never and I have never had a threesome with someone I've been in a relationship with it was only ever with people that I just kind of liked but didn't want to date because I didn't actually like that dynamic but it was more my ex-boyfriend before would be like yeah it doesn't count as cheating if you still want to make out with that girl that you used to date sometimes and I'm like really okay cool and

SPEAKER_00:

he would

SPEAKER_01:

never say that about the guy I dated you know that would never there it would be oh Matt I mean that would be end of the relationship so again misogyny he doesn't see a woman as a real threat yeah and I mean, obviously, ultimately, I did choose him for talking about choice, but it wasn't– it was never about because he was a man. It was just I liked him more. I just had a deeper connection with him. It wasn't because I was like, oh, it's a girl. It's too hard. It was just we had a deeper connection.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Do you ever feel like– you're like, I don't know how to say this, like compromising with the patriarchy because like you would be open to dating guys and like being with guys.

SPEAKER_01:

Because I'm sleeping with the enemy. Yes. Or have slept, I should say. I'm not currently sleeping with the enemy, okay?

SPEAKER_00:

Because you're the most like anti-patriarchy person that I know. And so I'm like, do you ever feel like it's like your body is betraying you? Kind of. Because therefore like you're sleeping with the enemy. You are compromising with the patriarchy.

SPEAKER_01:

well and even it's like I definitely still do things for the male gaze it's like if you even think about it getting Botox doing beauty treatments it's like that comes from the patriarchy that comes from like women aren't allowed to age but when men age they get hotter you know it's like I still participate in those things I'm nowhere near perfect I know it's a shocker but yeah I've definitely felt that where I'm like why can't I just be all the way gay why Why? Because back to that radical lesbian manifesto, the whole point of that was talking more about lesbianism beyond sexual orientation. It was talking about lesbianism as a political stance, which was anti-patriarchy, anti-men. You're centering your world and your life around women, which I'm like, that sounds great. That sounds ideal. So yeah, and in that writing, it was explicitly exclusionary. of bisexual women because they called it that as sleeping with the enemy. Did

SPEAKER_00:

they really? Yeah. Yeah. That's

SPEAKER_01:

amazing. Which I guess we are. We did. We have. I'm sorry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Sometimes it does feel like that. Like you're sleeping with the enemy. Like, oh, what did you choose? If you have the choice, why wouldn't you pick a girl instead? Exactly. On the flip side of the whole conversation we had earlier. Okay. What about like Another one that I've experienced or I've heard people talk about a lot is that like almost like bi people equals non monogamy. especially if it is with a dude and not another woman for a lot of reasons but like I think first of all it's like I think lesbians the stereotype of lesbians is that they're extremely committed extremely monogamous like and we know there's lots of poly lesbians out there but that's the stereotype and so I feel like lesbians feel stressed out about bi girls because they're like you don't want to be monogamous and then also you'll never

SPEAKER_01:

commit

SPEAKER_00:

you'll never commit to me and then also you're going to be hooking up with dudes. And I feel like that stresses out lesbians because it's like... It

SPEAKER_01:

grosses them

SPEAKER_00:

out. It grosses them out because it's like they don't want to be hooking up with somebody who's hooking up with guys at the same time. It feels like

SPEAKER_01:

based on things that I've heard from lesbians, which I find this so funny. I don't know why. I mean, I'm just going to say it. I don't have a problem with jizz, okay? But I know... I can't

SPEAKER_00:

believe we're talking about

SPEAKER_01:

this. you're so uncomfortable but it's like lesbian it's like that it just makes them feel so icked out and again I know there's tons of lesbians will be like that's not true I don't feel that way at all and everything I know we're talking stereotypes we're talking stereotypes but lesbians have dick phobia yeah dick phobia exactly where it's real I have it because and the way that you also have explained it to me was like again it's like that a man is entering the bedroom there's this feeling of like I don't want a man in my sexual experience where

SPEAKER_00:

now they're entering it inadvertently yeah and i'm not choosing this like i don't i'm not wanting this man to be here but he's here through you but then

SPEAKER_01:

but then to me that makes me kind of feel objectified where i'm like i'm not just like a portal to jizz you know like that's not all i am i'm not a freaking fleshlight or something so it's just like i'm sorry that i have hooked up with dudes before i don't know no obviously

SPEAKER_00:

no i know we obviously get over it do you know what I mean and it's such a silly one and I know this sounds so ridiculous but I will say I don't actually think it's

SPEAKER_01:

just lesbians because when I talk about dating bi guys straight girls say the same thing like ew you would hook up with a guy who's also hooking up with guys like there's something about just like men I don't know what it is I don't think it is just and I'm like yeah I don't I just don't care I don't understand what the big deal is but yeah so indefensible lesbians I don't think it is just lesbians that have that there's something people are like just don't want extra jizz in the bedroom

SPEAKER_00:

we don't

SPEAKER_01:

want

SPEAKER_00:

it just like if we wanted it we would be pursuing another path in life and we chose not that

SPEAKER_01:

path but the monogamous thing is okay again sure all groups have poly people there are I'm sure plenty of poly bi people but just because you want it all that doesn't mean that you have to have it all at once and at the same time just because you don't want to decide you know I said like I feel like I just I don't want to decide why do I have to choose that just means I don't want to have to decide if I'm straight or if I'm gay why can't I just be bi does it just make you feel misunderstood yeah that's the biggest

SPEAKER_00:

thing and I think that's and what does that feel like it's like to be on the receiving end

SPEAKER_01:

well I think that it was in my own coming out experience because we got together and it was just like I don't know I'm in love with this woman we're getting married I knew it in my soul before we had even kissed and I was like whatever I'll figure out the logistics later it was just very in the heart following that feeling and was like my head will catch up and so I didn't really come out as anything other than just I love Alex you know and I was like oh and then I went through this whole process of am I gay like I had to really go through and I was like was I gay the whole time and I just didn't know and I'm like no no I'm like trying to think back to experiences I'm like no I still feel like that was real love and I liked these things and but it was a year and a half so we are already married at this point when I tell you and I think we've talked about it before on the podcast

SPEAKER_00:

yeah you walked into our bedroom when I was like reading or something and you're like I have to tell you something yeah I was like oh no like it was you were clearly distraught distraught and like this was gonna be a serious conversation you're like I'm bi and I was like yeah I know

SPEAKER_01:

no shit

SPEAKER_00:

you're like no no I think I've always I'm like yeah obviously like no no but I need you to understand that I'm still attracted to men I'm like yes honey I

SPEAKER_01:

know

SPEAKER_00:

I know

SPEAKER_01:

that it's okay because well I think part of it was that first you know the first thing that we had had before we were even together whatever your comment was it's so funny I don't even remember it now because it was it traumatized me for two years to where I was like oh my god is this gonna be enough for her like I felt like like you wanted me to be a lesbian and because you would kind of joke about it you know and so I felt like you want you wish that I was or like wanted me to be a lesbian I felt like if you knew that I was bi and that that therefore I can still be attracted to men it felt like I was betraying

SPEAKER_00:

you even

SPEAKER_01:

more talk about like my body betraying me but then I also felt like I was betraying you because I didn't want you to feel like you weren't enough yeah you know and so it that was part of it but then also part of this why it was hard for me was because of all these stereotypes where it was like am i not committed am i you know like i had to like really think about these things in myself i'm like no this doesn't feel true and yeah it was just like this general feeling of being misunderstood because what i the reason that it really clicked for me it was i was listening to cammy's old podcast that she had done with jen do you remember her last name winston is it yes yes good job so if you're bi you need to follow her on Instagram her name is generous and she is like the most bi person in the world I was listening to and something in it just like clicked for me I don't remember exactly what it was but that's when it really clicked I was like I am all of these things and maybe it was just the fact that she had so much kind of like pride in her biness too instead of this it seemed like what I had started to notice was that when I would catch my thoughts or see or hear my thoughts going through my head the thing that I would always say when I would be like am I gay or am I just bi and I always was saying the just like it wasn't enough and I was like why doesn't it feel like it's enough you know why can't I be bi am I gay or bi why does it have to be am I gay or just bi like I'm like settling on something that is bad

SPEAKER_00:

like you had to like prove your gayness as well

SPEAKER_01:

it was that as if

SPEAKER_00:

like being in a relationship with a woman and getting married to one wasn't enough it's like

SPEAKER_01:

prove your gayness because the thing that happens I think to all bi people men and women it actually happens more to men if a man comes out as bi they're like just come out as gay already you aren't it doesn't seem like a destination you can land it's like something you're supposed to pass through to get to the point you're either bi and experimenting and you're gonna end up straight or you're bi and experimenting and you're gonna end up gay but to come out as bi is kind of like okay whatever you still don't know what you are and some people have that pipeline of the gay to bi or the bi to gay pipeline you know that that happens and identities can change but it's also enough to just come out as bi yeah and what i realized is that in my own mind i didn't think that was enough like i didn't feel like that was the destination it felt like oh i'm if i'm bi then i'm nothing like it felt like that wasn't because then you're you're not straight you're not gay you're just kind of hanging out in between the struggle is Yeah. The

SPEAKER_00:

struggle is real. It's so funny because it's like, so we've been together now, you know, like almost six years.

SPEAKER_02:

And

SPEAKER_00:

we talked about like the street cred that we got after being together for five years. It's like, okay, we have enough credibility. We can start a podcast now. We've been together long enough because we like move so fast. We knew people didn't take us seriously. But it's like, it's so funny. We talk about this all the time. It's like you have street cred now because you're with me. Like you've got the

SPEAKER_01:

queer street cred. Because you get classified differently if you're a bi girl with a man. People in the queer community are typically like, whatever, just another bi girl who's wanting to claim this space, but she's in a straight relationship. Versus a bi girl who's with a woman, if you're just dating, you definitely get more credibility. If you marry a woman as a bi girl, they're like, come here, we love you. She's got the

SPEAKER_00:

street cred. I am in the club. Yeah, and I... I do feel for all the bi girls who are in straight relationships where it's– they're not always as welcomed into our spaces.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'll be totally honest that I have had those same– what's the word? Like that– discrimination I get like what's the right word that I'm thinking of but if I hear a girl is bi but with a guy

SPEAKER_00:

and she's married to a dude

SPEAKER_01:

I'm like whatever it's not the same and it isn't the same you're like is she even bi how bi are you

SPEAKER_00:

how bi are you prove it prove your biness to us prove your

SPEAKER_01:

gayness like did you make out with a few girls in college and now you feel like you're bi and also by the way you can be bi and never have even had a sexual experience with a girl yeah some people get married to a man super young and then realize they're bi later in life they never even get to act on it but they're just like

SPEAKER_00:

is it we really love like making people prove their gayness

SPEAKER_01:

prove your gay prove it prove it but it's so I catch myself doing that

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

if I'm told and I am by it's bad so I know I it's I get it but it's

SPEAKER_00:

but so I do feel bad for those women because I'm like they're probably really longing to have that that space because we were just talking about this with a friend the other night it's so nice having all types of friends we love our straight friends we love our queer friends there is there the thing about having queer friends though and like having that space with them it's like it's like a warm hug it's like it's the most comforting feeling to be around other queer women and just not have to explain yourself you just get to be who you are and there's this like understanding of all the things you went through all the experiences you've had and it feels so good

SPEAKER_01:

and I that what I said to her that I'll say again what it reminded me of is having been an expat in many countries or just even traveled to many countries but especially when you fully live in another country you're an expat there even if you learn the language fluently even if you really integrate and that feels like home there's usually a very different feeling of coming back to your own country of origin the culture the language the habits the way of doing things that is just truly in you it's so innate it's that second nature

SPEAKER_00:

it's just like relaxing

SPEAKER_01:

that it just you have this like shorthand way of being able to communicate with people that maybe you can never fully get there when you are kind of like a foreigner you know in in another place and that's what it kind of reminds me of of being with straight friends versus queer friends it's like meeting a queer person there's this immediate you kind of just like cut straight to the point it feels

SPEAKER_00:

like yeah for sure and so I do I do wish that we were more open-minded and like more welcome of straight women who are in same sex sorry hetero relationships like they're in a relationship with a guy because I imagine it's like first of all I mean I'm not bi but what I picture is like you're straddling these two cultures you're never really fitting in with either and you know and you are longing for that piece of you to be recognized

SPEAKER_01:

yeah and it's I mean I'm pretty obviously not biracial at all but whenever I read, specifically read or like hear speeches or things of people who are biracial, the way they speak about it, I can relate to so much where it's like, I'm not, you know, usually I hear with half black and half white, but it could be all kinds of, you know, also with Asian, you know, whatever it is of being like, I'm not black enough to hang out with the black people. I'm not white enough to fit in with the white people. And obviously when you are similar to being bisexual, if you're biracial, sometimes you can look predominantly more black or predominantly more you know like the features the hair everything it can it can show up differently even if you really are you know your mom is one your dad is the other and similar with being a bi person how it's like you can be bi but maybe externally really present yourself super queer looking obviously very queer looking or more like me that just you know is more femme and straight passing and so you know you're getting treated differently not only by the two groups but also by society as a whole And I would say typically the group that is more marginalized, especially if you are more passing in whatever that form is, can be a little bit harsher with acceptance because it's like you don't really know this experience that we all know and that we're kind of bonded over, which I understand, but it's also like, but I am that too. It's like I don't know it the same way that you know it, the same way that you moving through the world, the way that you look and present is very different than me when we're

SPEAKER_00:

separate. It's totally different.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'll never know what that's like, but I do know what it's like to be queer and even gay you know so it's it's just hard because it's like you want to be accepted but the argument that I'm seeing online about that is like it's not the same like not being accepted into a marginalized community isn't the same as not being accepted into society as a whole which is true which is true but the human feeling like beyond the kind of politics of it of just not belonging that that feeling is the same and I think it's just like having a little bit more empathy and compassion for that of that feeling of not belonging or feeling lonely

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

in the world is

SPEAKER_00:

yeah I think about it like whenever I've moved across the country and I'm having to make new friends the first thing I'm doing is like I'm just like so desperate to make queer friends because for me it's the first thing that's gonna make me feel like I'm at home yeah it's like I need my queer friends yeah or else I won't feel like this place is mine and then I imagine that like all these you know bi women are out there who are in hetero relationships and it's just like they have that same longing and don't want they want to feel seen they want to feel accepted and they maybe are feeling lonely or like because they're living in this straight world that doesn't see them for who they are and I'm like no I want to like bring you in and wrap you up and embrace and like let you be a part of our crew so that's my biggest thing

SPEAKER_01:

I think that you brought up a good point though the other day it's not just about the person like let's say the community does accept the person right now we're specifically talking about women so let's say they accept the bi woman but let's say your husband sucks and he's just a freaking weird straight dude that's now trying to infiltrate these events like that can be a cock block for you to get in too yeah which sucks because then even more so you can't express your queerness if your partner really doesn't get it and then the gays or the queers are like get that dude out of here you know it's a real thing and that happens you I haven't experienced this as much just because I haven't been out as long as you but you said you've seen it a lot

SPEAKER_00:

oh yeah I've seen that a lot where it's like you know a couple will show up to a space the guy's trying to support his girlfriend whatever and my my biggest advice is like if you're gonna do that that's totally fine I'm I am not a person who's like you have to be queer to be in queer spaces because I brought my straight friends around and whatnot but they're cool And my thing is like, just be cool. And what I mean by that is like... The cool is so subjective. What I mean by that is like... roll with what's happening roll with the culture like don't ask too many questions don't get awkward you know don't ogle and act like we're zoo

SPEAKER_01:

animals

SPEAKER_00:

yeah exactly like don't pay attention to things in a weird way just like let let us live let us exist and like be cool and have fun you know and don't make it weird

SPEAKER_01:

yeah and I mean once again of things we disagree on because and I told you I think we could do a whole ass episode on straight people in queer spaces or like straight people in gay bars and stuff because i i'm more which is so funny because i'm the bi one you would think and i have way more straight friends than you for instance but i'm more like no i get it like let people they because that straight person can go down the street to anywhere else like why do you have to come here and i know you're like they're wanting to be an ally and everybody whatever i don't know i'm kind of like my

SPEAKER_00:

thing is just like be mindful of who you invite into the space yeah i have a lot of straight friends and they're just fucking cool and my queer friends want to be around with them because they're around them because they're cool and fun to be around and make them feel special and make and like have fun dancing with them and want to party

SPEAKER_01:

again back to l word because we are re-watching it reminds me of kit yeah you know how she wants to be queer so bad yes she tries it with the trans person she tries it with poppy she's like i'm just not like she wants to be so badly but she fits in she fits in she's so cool she's so supportive so I it

SPEAKER_00:

is my thing is like just

SPEAKER_01:

be cool man

SPEAKER_00:

that's all I gotta say and if you don't understand what that means you're gonna have a hard time I don't know what to tell you um okay I want to talk about the Betty Who Renee rap thing really quick

SPEAKER_01:

okay

SPEAKER_00:

okay so we we We just have to talk about it because it's been such a big thing. Okay, so I'm going to read the quote from Betty Who and we're going to talk about it. So Betty Who goes, this is from the Made It Out podcast. Yeah. I have so much space and love for those women who are probably going through it right now. I think it's hard when you become representative of something to other people and then you change or you are just following your heart and then that means other people feel they are not represented anymore. The pressure of that is so immense. A huge part of queerness is identifying yourself and putting yourself under you know the alphabet mafia it's like which one are you and this is me prove your gayness yeah and she says renee rap is like you'll never catch me dating a man like go off queen i love that for you but i also hold space for her in 10 years if she goes oops i met the love of my life and it's this man i didn't mean to it's like that's okay And so what Renee said back...

SPEAKER_01:

Well, can we talk about

SPEAKER_00:

that first? Let's talk about it before... Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because... So that clip went... I mean, I don't want to say mega viral. It was circulating in the queer space. Probably straight people have no idea about that that even happened, you know? So it was viral in our corner of the internet. And I just want to say, like we said at the very top, it's like them even choosing to have that conversation was... mean I hate the word brave in some ways in today's world where it's very watered down but it kind of was you know of being able to just have that conversation and whether they knew that that was a brave thing to do or not I don't know because it is it is scary for the exact reason of what happened which was a lot of backlash and also I I didn't I read a lot of the backlash watched a lot of the videos before I listened to the full episode and I kind of understood it because it was like Renee Rapp is a lesbian. Why are you talking about her being with a man? It felt kind of insulting and kind of feeding into that trope of, oh, you just haven't found the right man yet. Listening to the whole episode and just even hearing her tonality, I don't think that was her intention. I don't think she was trying to be offensive. No. But I can understand why that upset people.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I really didn't take it the way the internet took it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I I think it's because she brought up Renee Rapp.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

Like if she would have just said like, yeah, if you, if someone, if you're a lesbian and, but one day like you do fall in love with a man, like we should be here to support you in that. Right. And I believe in that sentiment because it's like, we're watching all these people go through it, whether it's Jojo, whether it's, you know, Billy, whether it's Fletcher. You had

SPEAKER_01:

someone at work who had that.

SPEAKER_00:

Had the reverse happen.

SPEAKER_01:

Had the exact thing happen to me, but in reverse.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. She was a lesbian. for her whole life until she was like 32, met an awesome dude and they got married and it blew her mind. And she

SPEAKER_01:

had the same identity crisis and everything. She had a massive identity crisis. Shame and just, and again, it's not the same as coming, is a coming out still of this new identity. It's not the same because society is going to be like, cool, you're welcome back to the majority. But it's still the identity, the belonging, the lonely, all of that, the feeling, the human feeling Yeah. And,

SPEAKER_00:

and it's, we should just be okay with when people find their soulmate, regardless of their gender, we should be happy for them, you know? And I think that's all Betty who is saying is like, which is again, we want to be. Yes. Isn't that what queerness is about? It should be. That's what it's about. It should be, you know, we let other things get in the way, but I also understand how it comes across as like, she hasn't found the right man yet. And I think it's just because she hasn't found the right man yet. she brought up like a very prominent lesbian who is

SPEAKER_01:

very much like you won't catch me dead with a man that's right and I think didn't I think Renee Rapp also originally identified as bi speaking of the pipeline and then was like yeah no I'm definitely a lesbian came out as a lesbian so it's like no I know who I am that's not who I am I'm not gonna be with a man it's not you know sexuality is fluid for a lot of people but I said this in another episode recently where when I said I don't believe in heterosexuality but because I'm like I do think gayness is fixed I've met people who are 100% gay I don't think I know people who are 100% straight so it's like I do I can understand

SPEAKER_00:

there are people who are 100% straight I know

SPEAKER_01:

you don't want them to be but I can understand when gay people hear that where it's like yeah I know sexuality is fluid and all but this is not this is who I am for sure so stop trying to to change that yeah I can relate to Betty Who in the sense that I was surprised too when my person was a woman. It's like, let life surprise you. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

I think for sure. And so here's what Renee had said. She said, people are always going for lesbians. Someone's going to bring my name into the conversation if they want to be in the conversation. I mean, it's just very similar to the whole, she hasn't found the right man. It's incredibly similar. So let's be clear. I'm just like, what the fuck? What makes you think I'm going to end up with a man? Also, how about don't talk about me when it comes to a man I'm very publicly in a very loving relationship with a woman and so and basically at the end says you know just focus on yourself don't bring my big effing lesbian name in your mouth and into this drama

SPEAKER_01:

I like how you just censored effing when I talked about being a portal

SPEAKER_00:

to

SPEAKER_01:

jizz earlier

SPEAKER_00:

oh god so anyways we love Renee because she's a big ol lesbian queen

SPEAKER_01:

yes and I love her her sass and everything but it's it's it's partially cancel culture it's also partially clip culture you know you are doing this long form content we have to make clips in order to be discovered and for visibility and also seeing clips out of context can spark a conversation that's not entirely accurate

SPEAKER_00:

exactly I think that was my biggest takeaway was I saw all the backlash and initially Initially, I got upset about it.

SPEAKER_02:

That

SPEAKER_00:

was my initial response was like, I'm annoyed at that. Why would she say that? And this is somebody who like, I was going to Betty Who concerts at Pride back in 2009, like fucking love Betty Who. I'm like, why would she say that? She's like the ultimate lesbian, even though she's married to a man now, right? And so I went and listened to the podcast and I was very, honestly, I was frustrated about the clips taken out of context. And I just felt frustrated because it's like, this is just riling people up and it's clearly not her intention to the way it came across. Like she was trying to encourage us all to be like open to whoever we decide to love. And that's the whole point of being queer. And so.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's kind of back to what I said at the beginning that queerness can have a different definition for everyone. I very much agree with you that I think that is so much a part of being queerness and what we're constantly trying to teach straight people is like let us love who we love and who cares what kind of body they're in and you know all of these different nuances of expression and and then when it comes to each other we can turn on each other really easily and just speaking of one more podcast before I know we're wrapping up but the Lesbian Supper Club made this amazing video who that was talking about partially this but just in was talking about division being used to create weakness in communities and it's like we need unification now more than ever we see that again in our country at large when things are very divided that makes you susceptible to attack and it's like we are super divided we're very quick to turn on each other and now look what's happening with the supreme court and you know it's like we are being weakened from the inside out out almost and i don't know i just thought it was i really liked seeing someone with that size platform kind of have a call to action that i felt was more positive and encouraging than like yeah fuck bi people or yeah i can't believe that it you know wasn't inciting more rage around this conversation and it it just i don't know it was really really refreshing to see and i really liked it yeah we love our bi cons we love our bi cons and we love our lesbians and you don't have to date a bi person if you don't want to but just remember you could marry a really awesome one like me

SPEAKER_00:

yes i would have if i would have had my rules and walls stay up i wouldn't have allowed myself to marry my soulmate

SPEAKER_01:

yeah but and so stay open yeah one more thing that again i think it applies to all people in relationships like that is normal you get burned in a past relationship straight gay whatever and you start dating someone new and maybe you're Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Also, just help them feel more seen and be a better person, most likely. So

SPEAKER_00:

stay open.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, honey. Who's the problem? The who is the problem this week for you.

SPEAKER_01:

All right, we're going to take a sharp turn into foot fetish town. We love it. We don't love it because my feet have been all over the internet for years now. And I don't know who, but someone started a wiki feet for me. 10 million views. Tens of millions of views. Per picture. How do I monetize this shit, first of all? But regardless, because of that, we are forced to wear socks in these episodes. And it's

SPEAKER_00:

warm in here

SPEAKER_01:

right now. I mean, today is not as bad. There have been days, maybe you noticed, speaking of clips, that we are shiny. That's because we're sweating balls. And it's not just because of the socks, but it's because it's so freaking hot. And then when you have to wear socks on top of it, because we're at home, we're in our living room, we're not going to wear shoes on the couch. No. So we just want to be cozy. We can't put a blanket over our feet. But if our toes are just out there in the open, we'll get flooded. So it's like, am I the problem because all engagement is good engagement and let the foot fetish people come? And should I just let my toes be naked and free? Or are they the problem for targeting innocent podcasters who just want to be cozy at home? You vote.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, my vote is that we're the problem. And we should just let our toes be naked.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. It's easy for you to say because you haven't. Some of the DMs I've gotten over the years. I'm on your wiki

SPEAKER_00:

feet page.

SPEAKER_01:

So I am a victim. No. The DMs I've gotten. I've had full on like fanfic novels written to me about my feet. And what they want to see. And what they want them to do in the mud. And like pressing on a gas pedal. Weird. Like no. So I'm very cognizant of feet out in the open.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So now we wear socks. Yeah. Sucks to suck. My who's the problem this week. Okay, so this is inspired by a friend who went on an online date and shows up to the date. She's excited to meet the girl, right? And the girl's bi. Okay. And is the friend a lesbian? And the friend's a lesbian.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so she goes to meet the bi girl. They go to get drinks. And... At the end of the date, basically, my friend finds out that this is the bi girl's first ever date with a girl. And my friend was kind of like, this should have been disclosed. Before they even met? Before they even met. She's like, I should have had the ability to decide whether I wanted to go on this date with this information beforehand.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So I want to know who's the problem. Like, should the bi girl have disclosed this information before going on the date? Or is my friend in the wrong?

SPEAKER_01:

I think I know much less about this than you as far as what's right and wrong. If it's her first date with a girl, then of course she's not going to know the ropes and the rules. So I do have plenty of understanding and grace for her. But I can also understand why your friend would have liked for her to have known. Because if she had the same rules as you, as no baby gays, then maybe she wouldn't have gone. But also, we just talked about staying open. So it's like, without her knowing, what if that was her soulmate? And if she didn't meet her just because she's like, it's my first date with a girl, then she's just hurting herself.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I could go both ways on this. I feel like, first of all, I understand wanting that information

SPEAKER_01:

because. I would say if she withheld it until like the fifth date, then definitely that's in the wrong. But she still told her on the first date. Yeah. So that's why I'm like, okay, cut her some slack. Yeah. If she didn't want to tell you in the chat because she wants to go on a date with a

SPEAKER_00:

girl. Exactly. She might have been getting turned down because a lot of people will like not go on the date if you've never been on a date with a girl before. So I understand like why she didn't share the information. I also think the information is important.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So I think it's good that she shared it on the date. The first date. And like you said, not five dates later. And then like I also think she was respectful about it. She wasn't there to like use my friend. Like she was just like, she was just so excited to go on a date with a girl. So earnest. Yeah. So baby. Okay. Tell us what you think about our,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah, vote. In the comments, on socials, you know where to find us, Wives Not Sisters pod, TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, all the things. We love hearing from you guys.

SPEAKER_00:

And let us know what you thought about the conversation. We weren't the most politically correct. We may have said things that offended you. That was never our intention.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Let us know what you think. Yeah, I think we were good, right? Hopefully. We love you. We'll see you next week. Bye. Bye. thank you so much for listening to the show we're so happy to have you here make sure to subscribe rate and review wherever you're listening to podcasts we love getting commentary from you on spotify and on youtube and as always if you love this episode or any of our episodes make sure to share it with a friend or somebody who will appreciate the conversation and

SPEAKER_00:

make sure to follow us on all their socials at wives not sisters pod on instagram tiktok and youtube thank guys. See you next week.