WLW Lore: Jojo Siwa

In this episode of Wives Not Sisters, Alex and Kayla dive deep into Jojo Siwa’s rise from Dance Moms to queer icon status. From the origins of her bow empire to Nickelodeon fame, child star controversies, her bold coming out, and her highly public relationships—this is a full WLW Lore Series breakdown you don’t want to miss. The hosts unpack Jojo’s “karma era,” viral moments, her mom’s controversial role, and whether the internet’s obsession is fair or fueled by queerness and celebrity culture.

• 00:08 – Intro & two truths and a lie
• 04:35 – Beginning Jojo Siwa lore: from Dance Moms to stardom
• 10:50 – Jojo’s fame, social media dominance & bow empire
• 19:03 – Coming out story, Nickelodeon backlash & DWTS same-sex partnership
• 27:59 – XOMG Pop group & exploitation allegations
• 42:14 – The “Karma Era” and viral controversies
• 47:50 – Relationship history: Kylie, Avery, Cass, and more
• 1:00:15 – Celebrity Big Brother drama, Chris Hughes & queer identity

#JojoSiwa #QueerPodcast #WLWLore #CelebrityCulture #LGBTQPodcast #DanceMoms #PopCultureBreakdown #WivesNotSisters #LesbianPodcast #QueerRepresentation

Connect with us on social media: IG: @wivesnotsisterspod | TikTok: @wivesnotsisterspod

Follow our hosts on Instagram: @kaylalanielsen @alix_tucker

Transcript

Speaker 01: 0:08

Hey guys, it's Alix and Kayla. And we're married, not related, definitely codependent.

Speaker 00: 0:14

But in a cute way. And we are back at it again. We are so excited to have you here with us. And before we jump in today, just want to say a quick thank you to everybody who has been reviewing and commenting on Spotify and YouTube. We love, love, love reading your comments because I know we've said this before, but it kind of makes it feel like, oh, there's actually people listening. Because sometimes it's like we're just sitting at home in our living room having these random ass conversations, and then we forget it goes out into the ether. So let us know that you're here. We love it.

Speaker 01: 0:48

Yeah. And if you like it, share it with your friends.

Speaker 00: 0:51

Even better.

Speaker 01: 0:52

We love that.

Speaker 00: 0:53

All right, honey. So it's my turn to lead. Woohoo. And we're gonna play a little game that I personally am horrible at. So I'm gonna put you in the hot seat. I'm not sure that I'm gonna be any better at this game than you. Two truths and a lie. I hope I remember my truths and a lie. Okay, but the funny thing about this is you are the worst liar in the world. In the world. And I also already know everything about you, so I'm probably gonna guess it pretty easily. But I know. This is why you should watch on YouTube because seeing her face, it's just you'll it's it's gonna be a dead giveaway.

Speaker 01: 1:26

You are the worst liar. I am a very, very bad liar. You catch me every time, it's really frustrating. So I and then I also was like, oh, I probably should have tried to do better at trying to stump you, but we'll see how it goes.

Speaker 00: 1:39

Okay, let's see. What do you got?

Speaker 01: 1:40

Okay, my first one. Are you gonna guess at the end or after each one? At the end, right?

Speaker 00: 1:45

Yeah, of me all three.

Speaker 01: 1:47

All right, great. My first one is that my co-workers once applied for me to be on The Bachelor. To be on The Bachelor. To be on The Bachelor. I hope that's true. My second one is that a famous Celesbian slid into my DMs. Oh, killer. And my last one is that one of the first times I ever went surfing, I saw a great white shark.

Speaker 00: 2:18

Okay, I know that one is true.

Speaker 01: 2:20

I know.

Speaker 00: 2:22

And I feel like the bachelor one's a lie. I just think you would have told me that already. And I could see some girl getting in your DMs, and I'm gonna have to track her down, and I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I don't like it. You're wrong, honey. Okay, good.

Speaker 01: 2:44

When I was working at a prior company in my early 20s, oh my God. My head of finance thought it'd be hilarious because we're we had like a big bachelor pool going on at the office. This is like a very social kind of party, you know, group of coworkers. And he thought it'd be hilarious that if if they could get me on the show and I like pretended to be straight for the show, and then and he's like, I think you could actually like win, but then at the end be like, surprise, I'm a lesbian, like sucker.

Speaker 00: 3:14

So you could have walked so Gabby Wendy could run. Exactly. So Becca Tilly could run.

Speaker 01: 3:19

You would have been that he wanted me to like basically lie the whole time and then at the end be like, surprise, I'm gay. And so they so my coworkers applied for me to be on the show. That's hilarious.

Speaker 00: 3:30

Yeah, I thought you meant they applied, but that makes sense because you came out before you were in the workforce. But I thought you meant they wanted to, or they did apply for you before you were out, so they just didn't know. And I was thinking, was this the blonde highlight era? Because that would track. Exactly.

Speaker 01: 3:45

Yeah, blonde highlight era.

Speaker 00: 3:47

Good times. Okay, that was good. That was good. Okay, and you didn't even you didn't even falter. I can't believe I'll poker face. I tricked you. Don't get used to this, okay? I'm proud of myself. All right, what else you got? That was it. Oh, that was it? You told me to do two choice in a lot. I didn't come up with multiple rounds. I thought you were gonna come up with a few. I told you to come up with a few. You just came up with the exact amount that you needed. Okay, honestly, I'm so sorry. I thought it was just one round. It doesn't even matter because we have so much to get into today. So it's actually better because the outline that I have today for none other than a Miss Joelle Siwa. Oh, is that her full name? Joelle? You don't even know that about your queen? I have no clue. Oh my god.

Speaker 01: 4:34

I think what you're gonna learn is I really know nothing about her.

Speaker 00: 4:37

You're just obsessed with her because of what? I think it's just like her essence.

Speaker 01: 4:43

Yeah, her essence. I think she just has such a joyful personality, and I really I love that. She's attracted to that, yeah. Yeah, she's like a ray of sunshine, and I like that she has seems to have like no shame. I have a lot of shame. And I think I really like people who don't have shame. Yeah. Because I'm like, I wish I I was like that.

Speaker 00: 5:03

I mean, you'll see as we go through this outline that seems to be very true. She seems to be very shameless.

Speaker 01: 5:10

Yeah.

Speaker 00: 5:10

And if you are new here, then welcome to our lore series where we're WLW lore. WLW lore, which might expand into queer lore and you know, gay boy lore. And it doesn't have to only be WLW, but for now, that's what it's been. So it's our lore series, and we deep dive into different influencers, celebrities, kind of public figures that are queer in some way, and just kind of look at why are people so obsessed with them? You know, like get into their backstory. We're not necessarily here to snark on them or tear them apart by any means, but I'm gonna give it to you straight. I'm gonna tell you what her controversies are. Okay. And I'm also gonna tell you what people are saying about it, you know. So we're kind of gonna look at all sides of it, and I'm gonna be so curious to see if any of your opinions change. Knowing you, they won't because once you decide something, that's it.

Speaker 01: 6:03

I'm pretty stubborn. Yeah. Like once I feel like I like somebody, I like them. If I don't like them, I can't.

Speaker 00: 6:08

It's like I feel like I could be like Jojo Sebar ran over a litter of puppies, and you'd be like, yeah, but she didn't really mean it, you know, it's gonna be really hard to change your mind. So, and I'm not necessarily trying to, I just want to tell you the whole story of, like I said, Miss Joelle, which is her real name, but she goes by Jojo. Okay, so she's 22 years old, and she said many times in many interviews that she believes her job on this earth, like not just her job she does for money, is to be an entertainer. So I would say she's definitely walking that path. She is doing a damn good job at it because she is a performer, she's an influencer, she has multi, multi-millions across all platforms. And she is also, I mean, she in her own words, she says, I'm not a singer, I'm a performer, but she is a singer. She has albums and she's known for her music, even though she says herself her voice isn't amazing. She just likes more the performance aspect of it. And then she's also an incredible dancer. So she's been a professional dancer and a public figure in all these different forms pretty much since she was a kid. So do you know how she got her start? It was like the dancing moms thing, right? Dancing moms. What? The moms aren't the ones dancing. Dancing moms? Dance moms. I just pictured all these moms dancing. Dance moms. So it's like the epitome of a stage parent. They're yeah. I actually never watched the show. I always picture like little John Bonnet Ramsey's. Exactly. That's what I picture too. Again, I didn't watch the show, so I can't really speak too much on that, but that was where she first came into the public eye. So let's see. Also, a little background on her. Maybe this is also why you like her. She's is Nebraska the Midwest? Everyone's gonna be like, you're so stupid. That's the Midwest. She's from Nebraska. Oh, okay. Yeah. She has a wholesomeness to her that I like. Are a Midwest girly and she's a Taurus like me. Oh, we're gonna be able to do that. So these are all things that are checking out for you, which makes sense. Yeah, I feel like you like. Her mom was a professional dance teacher, and her dad was a chiropractor before she kind of was more in the public eye and then essentially supported her family, as many child stars do, which has a lot of, you know, question marks around it in and of itself. There's obviously a huge fascination with child stars and just kind of what is appropriate when it comes to a kid being in the spotlight. One thing that I will say about Jojo Siwa, at least so far, because she is only 22 years old. So there's still she has a very long life ahead of her, hopefully. Um she hasn't had that kind of traditional trajectory as so many child stars where you watch them peak and then crash and burn. Like she hasn't had that at all. She's had a lot of controversies, she's had a lot of online bullying and hate and viral moments. But I'm saying she hasn't had that kind of addiction and you know, these big moments that we see in Britney and Lindsay and all these other It seems like from what I can tell, she has like a really strong family unit, and that's like kept her pretty grounded, even though she's like there's been craziness around her, like she's navigated the the fame of like having that early childhood stardom like pretty well. Yeah, and we also don't hear about she said so herself, you know, that her there's there's different ways that child stars are are meant to be paid, and there's something called a Coogan account when you're underage that a certain amount of your money you just gave me such a weird look. Coogan. It's a funny word. I think it was someone's last name. Um, but a certain amount of money is supposed to be put in that when they're underage. I don't remember what the percentage is. And again, you hear so often of child stars, once they're adults, they're like, great, where's my money? And their parents are like, whoops, we spent it all. And so even stuff like that didn't happen to her. Um, which, yeah, you know, is not necessarily something impressive that she has done, but it I think just contributes to that groundedness that you're talking about, where I'm sure she has been taken advantage of. And like I said, dance moms was that idea of kind of like stage mom. So her mom was and is sort of gnarly that way in pushing her to be a performer. But at least according to Jojo, that is her dharma, if you will. Like that is her purpose in life. So she doesn't seem to be too upset about it. And I would say one thing about her as well is that she is very much, you know, the phrase of all what is it like all PR is good PR? It's worse if people aren't talking about you. That is her.

Speaker 01: 10:50

I feel like that's her whole essence.

Speaker 00: 10:51

That is her whole mantra in life.

Speaker 01: 10:53

She just she doesn't care what people are saying, she just is happy people are talking about her. And I feel like she's like a very good business person from that perspective.

Speaker 00: 11:07

Yeah. I don't understand. It's like a it has to affect her. I don't know how I mean, just to give you an example, she has 46 million followers on TikTok alone. Whoa. Multi-millions on Instagram, multi-millions on YouTube, on top of being on TV shows and all this stuff. So it's like she's getting inundated with commentary all the time. I don't even know on Snapchat. So it's like you're just getting so much feedback all the time, and it appears to just kind of bounce off of her, but it's like it has to affect you. And you are so young, you've been dealing with that literally your whole life. So she first appeared on Dance Moms in 2013. She was just nine years old, and she competed in Abby's Ultimate Dance Competition, which is kind of like the premise of the show. She was the youngest contestant in the top five finalists. So she's known for being a really, really good dancer. And you know that much about her because you've seen her dance, but she's been that way.

Speaker 01: 12:03

She's an amazing dancer. Yeah.

Speaker 00: 12:04

Super talented. She's been that way since she was really young. And then she, I don't believe she made it that year, but she came on as a full-time cast member and was selected for the team in 2015. So she was 11 at this point. Whoa. That's so young. So young. And she was so cute. If you see her back then, just like little blonde. So I mean, she looks so Midwestern that way. Um, and yeah, she kind of the show was really peaking at that time, and she blew up, but she has this big personality, is very like effervescent, sparkly energy, incredibly talented dancer. So in 2016, just a year later, she starts releasing her music, and that's when her song Boomerang came out. Guess how many times that video has been viewed on YouTube?

Speaker 01: 12:51

Like hundred million? No, a billion.

Speaker 00: 12:54

A billion. A billion? Over a billion, actually. A billion? Just like what? I can't even From when she was 12? Yeah. She was 12. She was 12. Yeah. So I don't even understand.

Speaker 01: 13:08

Like, how are you normal?

Speaker 00: 13:08

I don't think how are you a normal person? So she didn't reach a billion in that year. I'm saying currently. Yes, it's accumulated. That's amazing. But so just to give you an idea of kind of like her level of fame, and obviously a lot of her fans were also really young. So in 2016, she also released an accessory line of hair bows with Claire's. Can we talk about the hair bows? Let's talk about the hairbows.

Speaker 01: 13:31

What is up with the hair bows? And just like, I feel like Jojo, you know how most child stars they go through this like transition period where they've become like 16 and they want to be like, I want to be a woman now and they want to like dress all sexy and whatever.

Speaker 00: 13:45

Smiley moment.

Speaker 01: 13:45

I feel like Jojo has not ever gotten to like really grow out of her kid phase. Like she's still always like bedazzled with tons of different rhinestones and like still wears the hairbows.

Speaker 00: 13:56

I don't think she still wears the hair bows. No, we're we're gonna get into that. I think that is one of her controversies was that transition of, hey, I'm not the bow girl anymore, and now I'm this bitch, you know. That was a whole moment that happened really just last year. Um, but the bows, I mean, again, I didn't know of her at that time. She's obviously way younger than anything we would be watching. So all I can equate it to is I did cheerleading, you know, competitive cheerleading, and it was very similar to gymnastics or to not just gymnastics, but to dance that way, where it's like the makeup that you wear is crazy, and the bows that we had to wear were insane looking. Your hair is slicked back to the gods, teased up, and then these massive bows. To the gods. So I think the the bigger the hair, the closer to God. Yeah, but it's also like slicked at the same, I don't know. It was it was a wild time, and it seems like that is still happening. Because her mom does all of her costumes, right?

Speaker 01: 14:55

She basically dresses Jojo from like the time that she was 10 to now. Like she does all the costume sets.

Speaker 00: 15:02

And again, she has that really sparkly big personality. So it makes sense that she kind of wants that to be reflected in what she wears. That's how everybody is. You know, we like to dress in a way that makes it feel like this is me. So when you say she's still as bedazzled and everything, I'm like, yeah, I think that is just her personality. She likes being kind of like the loudest and the biggest, and she's extra as fuck. Like that is the point of her. Amazing. But one funny thing about the bows that I came across that I thought was funny is that some schools banned the bows because they were a distraction or because they led to too much competition amongst the students. No. I picture it just kind of our era of beanie babies, remember? At least in my school, because beanie babies have their whole moment, and then you stop being able to bring them to school because you would like line them up on your desk and be like, which one do you have? How many do you have? Do you have the princess Diana? Do you think Princess Diane or not? And I picture that with the bows with Jojo, you know, where people just have this like all these bows across their desk, and they're like, which ones do you have? They're like nine-year-olds trading them on the black market. So Jojo says that bows were a symbol of power, confidence, and believedness. I don't know what that means. That's a direct quote. I don't know what that means either. Believed that is a direct quote.

Speaker 01: 16:22

All right, Jojo. Okay.

Speaker 00: 16:24

So in 2017, she signed with Nickelodeon. Nickelodeon very much. That's big. That's huge, very much like Disney, where it's like if you're a Nickelodeon kid, that's major. The fandom that you have within the kid world is out of control. Out of control is massive. So in the next couple of years, she did a lot of collaborations. She collabed with JC Penny for a line of accessories, home decor, a doll that looked like her in 2019. She did another thing with Claire's makeup kit, and then it ended up being recalled for dangerous amounts of asbestos. So, you know, like she's just kind of getting her feet wet in the in the controversy, but nothing too crazy. It's like, okay, whatever, your hair bows were recalled and you had some toxic makeup, haven't we all? So in 2019, she did her first major concert tour. She did 52 cities. Whoa. So 2019, what is the math on that? She was born. She was born in 2003.

unknown: 17:27

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 17:27

So she's like 16 and she's doing massive tours.

Speaker 00: 17:30

Yeah. In US, Canada, UK, and Australia. 52 cities.

Speaker 01: 17:34

And she's like working with Nickelodeon still at this point.

Speaker 00: 17:37

She's working with Nickelodeon. And in 2020, she was named Times Most Influential List at 17 years old. What? Yeah. How's that even possible? Because she was making bank, you know. She her the business side of things, and she was huge, which is so funny. For her music. For her music and just kind of her persona, her music and also social media. She got on social media very soon and really understood that of like, okay, this is my space. I'm I'm going to again be extra. I'm going to perform. I'm going, she created so much content on YouTube. She did all of her own editing, producing of all of her own stuff. And she was, I literally hadn't heard of her until probably two years ago. Or maybe until she came out. It was probably when she came out, was when I heard of her, just because it was like, oh, some girl came out and everyone's freaking out about it. But she was so far.

Speaker 01: 18:34

It was sometime after COVID, it was like the first time I ever heard of who she was. But I feel like I really didn't start to know who she was until like the last two years.

Speaker 00: 18:41

Yeah. Because she I don't know, she was a child. She was so much younger. Don't worry about it. Why not watch it? We would have no idea who she is. There's no reason for us to know that. I think it would almost be weirder if we did. Um, so yeah, let me just check. Yeah, so she did come out in 2021. And do you know how she came out?

Speaker 01: 19:03

I don't know how she came out. I think it was controversial though with Nickelodeon.

Speaker 00: 19:08

So she came out, she fell in love with somebody who, I mean, classic lesbian pipeline, best friend to girlfriend, you know? So fell in love with this girl who was a normie, if you will, you know, she wasn't famous or anything. Um, fell in love with her, and she had a shirt that said best gay cousin on it. And she had taken this picture. I think it was just supposed to be for her girlfriend. Like she had sent it to her or something, being like, Oh, should I post this? And she's like, Yeah. So she posted it and then and didn't really think anything of it. Like that was her coming out, it was just being like, Oh, by the way, I'm gay. She and she was just wearing a shirt that kind of called herself gay on it. And that's how she came out. That's how she came out to tens of millions of people. I don't know how many followers she had at that time, but yeah, it still would be millions. Very casual, very casual. And then as she says, when I, you know, I don't remember if it was overnight or exactly what it was, but she had some period of time away from her phone, a few hours. And when she came back, there were just like tens of thousands of comments.

Speaker 01: 20:09

And probably like Nickelodeon execs calling her nonstop, being like, what the hell?

Speaker 00: 20:14

Yeah. So so this is the thing. When we start getting into her controversies, because I feel like a lot of the controversies kind of started after she came out. I don't know if that's just because of the age, where it's like, okay, she's getting older.

Speaker 01: 20:27

I don't know what the probably because she started to have more control over the decisions and stuff that she's making, honestly.

Speaker 00: 20:33

I also kind of wonder if some of the controversy, I mean, and you'll okay, controversies is a strong word for some of these things. Some of these things are just like embarrassing viral moments where her voice sounded like shit and she thought it sounded good and people were making fun of her. You know, so some of it isn't that serious. But I also can't help but wonder, it's like, would people have her under as much of a microscope if she wasn't queer? You know what I mean? Like, is that part of it? Because sometimes it I kind of feel like that is part of it. Because even her coming out is considered a controversy, because the response, you know, from a lot of people was very much like, we don't want our kids seeing that. How are we gonna explain that to our kids?

Speaker 01: 21:14

Yeah.

Speaker 00: 21:14

And she wasn't coming out like, this is how you scissor girls. You know, it's not like she was coming out in this like really sexually explicit way. She was just like, I like a girl and we're going to Disneyland. And they were holding hands.

Speaker 01: 21:25

My only counter to that though is like, I feel like all the kids who were like in Disney or like the Mickey Mouse Club who got famous, and it's like, I feel like they would make them have like purity rings, and then someone would find out that they're having sex and they're 15 or 16, like Britney with Justin Timberlake, and it's like the amount of scrutiny that they got was out of control. Yeah. And you know, these I just think it's like we love to tear down successful women. I don't know what it is, why we do it. So I don't know if it's just that she's queer, because I think we do it, we've done it to so many people.

Speaker 00: 21:58

Yeah.

Speaker 01: 21:58

No, all these kids stars.

Speaker 00: 22:00

And I haven't seen anybody else say, oh, she just gets critiqued because she's queer. It's just something I noticed in making this outline that it's like, oh, a lot of the controversies, other than like I said, okay, Bo's getting recalled, the makeup, you know, kind of stupid stuff, it happened after she came out. But it could have also just been an age thing, you know, where she's also starting to progress her career. And as you progress your career, you're inevitably gonna make more mistakes. Um, but yeah, so there was a lot, there was a lot of talk around that where it was like, you know, that whole idea of how are we going to explain this to our kids? And she's like, explain what? Like, I'm not doing she still was in her bow era at that time. It was very innocent, just teenage love. They would hang out at Disneyland. You know what I mean? Like that is they it wasn't this.

Speaker 01: 22:49

Yeah, it's like a high school romance. It's very innocent.

Speaker 00: 22:51

It was, and it was so normal, like very on par with what other 17-year-olds were doing. It was just with a girl. Yeah. But like you said though, people love to sexualize girls, women in general. And it it does also happen in straight relationships, like the example you gave of Britney and Justin, I think, is a really good one.

Speaker 01: 23:10

Yeah. So there was just that happening where it's like there's a So the reaction was basically like, now we have to explain to our kids what being gay is because Jojo is gay and they look up to her. That's kind of what's happening. Yeah. Like similar to what's happening right now with the Snoop Dogg situation in the movie theater. Like, I took my grandson to the movies, and you know, there's like two women having a baby, and my grandson's like, I thought only men and women could have babies together. And he's like, Oh, now I have to like explain this to my grandson. Like, why I just want to go to the movies, you know? It's like, why do I have to explain this to my kid now?

Speaker 00: 23:43

Which, by the way, I was a nursery school teacher, okay? I love to say this in every episode, but in case you don't know, I was a nursery school teacher. And I'm like, all you have to do is say, you don't have to go into the ins and outs. That kid probably doesn't even know what sex is yet. They probably, you know, if they're five, they probably don't know how babies are even, you don't have to tell them everything. You could just say, yeah, and also two mommies can have it. That's all you have to say. You don't have to go into the whole science of it and the whole, this is exactly what happens. And then you freeze a sperm, and then you you don't have to do all of that, you know? It's just like keep it super simple and they'll be like, okay, cool. They don't in some cool, can I have a popsicle? Exactly. Move on, they don't even care. And it's not like Jojo was making queer music or anything. It was just, she was just existing in the world in a gay relationship. That's all she was doing. And yeah, Nickelodeon was like, What are we gonna do about this? And she was Did they fire her? No, they didn't fire her, but they had said something like that of um, I have it in here somewhere, where they had said something along the lines of like, what are we gonna tell? Like, what are we gonna do about this? And she was like, What do you mean? Like she was so caught off guard because she also just didn't think it was a big deal. And then when they did Yeah, because it's like 2021 at this point, like it's not a big deal. Exactly. And when they did get on the phone with whoever it was, whoever, I don't know, the the board, or they were all actually really stoked about it. And then the rest of the execs were kind of like, Oh, oh yeah, us too. This is according to her, so you know, take it with a grain of salt. Um, so yeah, so that happened in 2021, and then she was on Dancing with the Stars, and she was the first ever person to do a same-sex dance couple on the show. Oh, I didn't know this. I didn't know that either. And she plays second. I'm like, who the hell got first? How did she get second? She's such a good dancer. I have no idea who got first. I probably should have looked into that, but um Oh wow. I thought that that was really cute. I feel like there's nothing more beautiful than seeing two women dancing together. Yeah. Right? I mean, kind of like two women doing anything.

Speaker 01: 25:50

Two women doing life together, but definitely dancing. I think it's so beautiful.

Speaker 00: 25:54

Yeah, especially professional level. I mean, maybe not like us dancing. It might not bring a tear to the eye, but Jojo and whoever her partner was, I'm sure they were incredible. So in 2021, so this is all 2021, she has another little controversy. The board game, Jojo's Juice, marketed for children age six and above, was withdrawn from sales by game makers Nickelodeon and Spin Master after a controversy over the game's content, which included questions about nudity and being arrested. So Oh, yeah, definitely not wasn't age appropriate? No. I mean, I don't know what the questions were, but yeah, nudity. I don't know. I'm like arrested. Six-year-olds know what being arrested is. Like that's in cartoons and stuff, right? I don't know. Yeah, of course. People go to jail. The nudity, that's weird. So she said she didn't know, she condemned the name for use the game for using her name, and she said, like, I didn't have anything to do with that. But that was just kind of like one little blip on the radar. And then this is where the real kind of meat of her controversies comes in. So I know that you think it's gonna be about her relationships. That's what I thought it was gonna be about. There is this whole part of her that you don't know anything about. Okay. And that's what we're gonna go into. We're we also of course we're gonna get into her relationships because there's been a lot of controversy, a lot of feedback, a lot of opinions about her relationships too. And that is very important. But this is separate and it's it is talked about. Like people who really know the Jojo Siwa lore will know about this. But I don't know. I feel like most people, if you're like, why don't you like Jojo Siwa? They're like, she's just annoying, or she screwed over this girl, or she lied to this girl, or she's dating a guy now. You know, they have most of the reasons are about the relationships. So, do you know about the the group that she started started called XOMG Pop?

Speaker 01: 27:59

Never heard of it.

Speaker 00: 28:01

Okay. Again, probably kind of good because we're old. We don't need to be following around like what she's just like a is this like a girl band? Not a band, but more like a performance group. So very much kind of trying to kind of like not necessarily recreating dance moms, but a similar kind of feel to it. They had sort of marketed it at her and her mom. So her and her mom started this, and they had marketed as I don't know why that was such a tongue twister for me, um, as a kind of like softer version of dance moms. We're not gonna have the toxicity, we're not gonna have, because they could acknowledge at this time dance moms was toxic and was not always healthy for the girls. Abby, the main judge or whatever she was. She was like kind of abusive. Yeah, she was pretty gnarly. So they're like, it's not gonna be like that. You know, we just we love dance and we want to get together the best girls, and we're gonna kind of like under this Jojo CWA brand, essentially make you famous. You know, this is gonna be a huge platform for you, but you're creating your and Jojo's also their instructor. So her and her mom are the instructors, but she has a huge fan base that are young children. So this is like little girls' dreams, especially little girls who are dancers, and uh yeah, this is this is where things kind of start to get a little weird. So dun dun dun. Okay, so it started from a dance pop revolution, which was marketed as the kinder, more gentle dance moms. And they there have been some accounts of former members who have alleged that the whole concept concept of the show and the group was for Jojo's mom to have new dolls to play with because Jojo was kind of pivoting into that more mature role that you were talking about. And, you know, in some ways And you'll see as we get into it, it's I think her mom is is more kind of guilty and more the problem, if you will, in this situation because Jojo is an adult at this point, but her mom is like a re you're a mom. You're a real adult, you're driving this whole thing. So they get pretty huge. They have over 15 million followers across socials. Like this is a massive group. They're doing tours, they partnered with Megan Trainer. Do you even know who that is? Because I'm all about the base. Yeah. I it's like a main, a mainstream pop artist. Okay.

Speaker 01: 30:38

That's all I know.

Speaker 00: 30:39

And all the girls are between eight and fourteen. So wow, they're young. They're young. Yeah. They're like young girls. And they have merch, clothing, bedding, accessories. It's all sold through Amazon and Target, like very similar to the Jojo Siba trajectory, where it's like, okay, you're amazing dancers dancers, performers, and we're gonna blow you up in the whole, you know, like make you this whole brand. And they made 20% on all of a commission on all of their merch, which sounds reasonable at first, but that 20% is divided between everyone. So it ends up only being 2.8% per person, which attorneys after the fact have said that's shockingly low, even for new artists. So there's already kind of like these whiffs of are they being taken advantage of a little bit? Um and then, okay, so the girls, these are all things that came out after the fact when there is the blowup. So the girls didn't have a lot of time for school. There was alleged mistreatment and abuse of the dance group for grueling hours, verbal mistreatment. This is all allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, I have to say, because none of this has been proven in the court of law. Yeah. Um, and people had also said that I think it was a producer had said that they heard her mom say, it's not a good day unless you make a kid cry. So this is kind of what we're dealing with, you know?

Speaker 01: 32:12

And again, it's like I've kind of like heard Jojo talk about like at least her time on dance moms, where she said, like, it was known to be like a notoriously hard environment, and it's like almost like designed to break you to see like who does really well in that environment. It's like crazy hours, like Abby would, you know, talk down to them. It was just like not a good environment. She's like, I just like thrived in it. But I've also heard other child stars just talk about this in general. It's like they're just overworked, they're kind of in pretty bad conditions, ultimately underpaid, but they're willing to do it because ultimately it's like they have this like glimpse of fame or like this opportunity for fame. And so people kind of put themselves in these like horrible situations, you know, because of the possibility of fame. It's super sad.

Speaker 00: 33:02

It's super sad. And I mean, I can kind of relate because I remember that interview when she said that as I was doing all the research for this. I can't remember which interview it was, maybe the caller daddy.

Speaker 01: 33:12

I think it was that, yeah.

Speaker 00: 33:13

Because I'm kind of the same when it comes to coaching. Like, I like a hard coach. I'm like, don't sugarcoat it, give it to me straight. I kind of like if you yell at me a little. So it's like I get that, and it is a preference, but it's also eight to four, like eight years old is so young. It's so young. So young. And there were they were saying that there was like a lot of power imbalances, obviously, because JoJo was famous, and her mom kind of by default, her mom isn't necessarily famous. You probably wouldn't recognize her out and about, but there's huge power imbalance happening. So the real thing that kind of came to a head is that there was one girl named Leah who had spinal bifida and she needed to have surgery. Um and when she came back from the surgery, she had to go straight back into rehearsing and she was bleeding through her belly button. Obviously, a huge major, major red flag. And Jojo's mama told her to just put a pad on it, like a period pad on it, and keep going. Like that was kind of the level of come on, like we got work to do. Um, so yeah.

Speaker 01: 34:27

But this is Jojo's mom, not Jojo.

Speaker 00: 34:32

Here comes the apology tour. But yes, it is, I mean, all of the allegations have been more against her mom. They have lumped them together in the sense that like Jojo was also said to be verbally abusive in training time and everything. But um the mom was ultimately the one that was hiring and firing people and having the conversations with the parents of these kids. So her mom ended up firing this girl after, and there's this huge uproar that's saying like she's discriminating against someone with a disability. Um and yikes. Yeah. So Leah's mom, I think I think her name is Angie. I think, I mean, it's spelt a little bit differently, but I'm assuming that's what her name is. So she had raised the the concerns to the group and said, like, is anybody else kind of seeing this, you know? And they everyone else was like, no, like we don't want to touch this, we don't we don't want to deal with it. And then I guess it was Jojo's birthday, and she took a picture with the five remaining girls, and it was kind of Angie had then said that they were mean girls because they were excluding Leah, and like there was You're making these faces, like, who cares?

Speaker 01: 35:51

Um It sounds like they're just taking a picture. I don't know what to say.

Speaker 00: 35:57

I mean it was after, like I said, that she had already been excluded because of her limitations physically.

Speaker 01: 36:06

Right. Or she got fired, right?

Speaker 00: 36:08

I don't know if the picture was before after she was fired or not.

Speaker 01: 36:11

Okay.

Speaker 00: 36:12

So, anyways, Angie ends up doing this Rolling Stones interview in 2024, and I don't know if this was the title or if this was just in it, but I have this in quotes and it said promise stardom and thrown in the trash. So that's kind of how she described it, where she's talking about medical negligence, saying that once she was doing all the calculations and everything, they were making less than minimum wage for super, super long hours. Because even though they had that same Coogan account set up because they were performers where you're having that percentage go in, what wasn't being accounted for was all the time they were spending on content creation. And they would spend hours doing dances for TikToks and YouTube and all this stuff, and that they would never get paid anything for because that was there's that weird gray area with kids online where they're not protected yet. Hopefully they will be, or just not online at all. Um, and so they were able to take advantage of that. Like they definitely took advantage of that. And they would really kind of like pit the girls against each other to add these incentives, specifically around content, too, of like, oh, the first person who gets the most views on their next video can get $250. It would be such negligible amounts of money too for how much money these girls are bringing in. To have 15 million followers across platforms, you're monetizing your content just by putting the content out there. Oh my god. But her, you know, they owned the accounts. So what do you think? What do you think, Sarah?

Speaker 01: 37:46

I don't I don't think that's very good. I mean, I think it's just such a obviously there's a lot of issues with you know, these young stars just being taken advantage of in general. But it's really sad to hear that it's like I I think it's just it what happens is like because your desire for fame is so strong, I feel like these parents make these trade-offs that they wouldn't normally do, which is just like letting your kids work so much, they can't go to school, they're ultimately just like making content all the time. And then in the end you're like, and we didn't even make any money from this. Like, was it even worth it?

Speaker 00: 38:28

Exactly.

Speaker 01: 38:28

Oh, that's so brutal.

Speaker 00: 38:30

And another example of the payment thing is they had told the girls that they were gonna pay them each $10,000 for their first album release, which again is nothing, nothing compared to how much money they are going to be making from it. But when they got the payment, it was only four grand. And she was like, Where's the rest? And she's like, Well, I had to pay for the Airbnb and the travel for the recording of it. And so she took it out. She, meaning Jess, Jojo's mom, took it out of the paycheck, out of their already very meager $10,000 paycheck for putting out an album. That is not good.

Speaker 01: 39:07

Yeah, that's very exploitative.

Speaker 00: 39:10

Exactly. And this girl, I don't remember how old Leah is. I thought I wrote it down, but maybe I just can't find it. She was young. She was, I want to say, between nine and 10. Like she was a young girl. Um, and of course, it's like her dream. She's like, Jojo Siwa's my hero. I want you know, I want to be her. I want this. And so it's also people, of course, can criticize her mom and be like, well, why were you continuing to put her through this? But it I think it is tricky because it's like, well, she was trying to support if her kid is like, please, mom, please, it's what I want. Yeah. And a lot of the a lot of the kids weren't. So did the kids sue? Like, what happened? So, first of all, all of the other ones had signed NDAs. For whatever reason, this family did not. I don't, it's a weird fluke. So she was speaking out about it, and she was trying to pursue things legally, but everyone else in the group was very team siwa. Like they were like, no, we love them, they've been great to us. We don't mind any of this. So it was kind of, it's a little odd that way, you know, because you would obviously have a lot more success in numbers if if they all band together. For sure. But they were all very like, we're super grateful to them. And Jojo's mom also likes to point out, like, after I fired her, you were begging for her to come back. You were saying, like, please don't do this, please don't do this. So she's like, if it was that bad as you're saying it is, then why would you be begging to be here? And they their lawyers ended up being able to kind of use that to discredit all of her allegations. So that's why I keep saying allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, because none of this has been proven. And it's like some people have said, Oh, are they just doing this to get their five seconds of fame? You know, because she did get fired. And I don't know. My guess is it's probably somewhere. It's probably in the middle, you know, because I don't think she would just completely make this up. And also she could have been upset that her kid got fired, but it seems like regardless, these amounts of money are so small for the amount of work that these kids are doing. And like you said, it's definitely exploitative. So over time, the group ended up dissolving, and they kind of just like slowly one by one left, and there wasn't really any big revelation about it because all of this happened in 2024. Oh, it just ended. It just this happened with Leah and everything, like very recently.

Speaker 01: 41:35

So that's what I didn't even know this group existed.

Speaker 00: 41:39

It just ended? It and that's what's so interesting because it was kind of around the same time that Jojo was having her whole karma era, which you are familiar with, right? So that a lot of people were talking about that. And there was some people were suspecting, oh, is she trying to kind of create all of this drama and be so annoying about karma and like this really gaudy music and outfit and be this bad girl because she's trying to cover up this controversy and this legal stuff that's happening with this group? Maybe.

Speaker 01: 42:13

Maybe it seemed like she wanted to like come out as an adult with the whole karma era of like, this is me, I'm having my Miley moment, and now I'm gonna like dress a certain way, I'm gonna ditch the bow.

Speaker 00: 42:26

Yeah, and that's what she said. Again, I think that same interview that we're we both listened to, that she said that where she's like, Yeah, I was definitely trying to have my Miley moment. Like, I wanted to have this full, I'm done. I'm done being the girl on the bow. I'm done being a teenager, and this is me now. So she went extreme. So this is where we kind of get into some of her, you know, I call them controversies, but that's it's loose, you know, something like her Tesla that's wrapped in her own face five million times that she drives around. That she actually drives around LA, which seems like a hazard to herself, a safety hazard. Right? Because people could like stalk her, but also like, why are you wrapping your Tesla with your face? Yeah. So she does out of control. It's like her most, I think like to sum it up, it's like she does these things that are super extra, super cringy, and people are just like, Oh, you're so annoying. Like people just get so annoyed of her. And the karma era was the same when she showed up in that outfit. The black and white kind of looked like kiss almost, you know, with her face painted. Exactly. It was so extreme, and people were just like, seriously, you go from the extremity of the bows to this. Like, you're you're just so extra. There's no other way to put it.

Speaker 01: 43:38

Yeah, I would say like her costumes, they're not great. Like, she kind of needs to fire her mom, is really what needs to happen. But she loves them. Like, she's so confident.

Speaker 00: 43:49

She's like, This is me. And she's like my clothing.

Speaker 01: 43:51

And she'll say, like, I don't know what happened what would happen if my mom was ever not here because like she makes all my clothes. Like, I don't know what I'd do. I'd be like, You would look so much better, is what would happen. You'd look amazing.

Speaker 00: 44:02

So that same interview, do you remember or you didn't watch it, but do you remember the clips of what it looked like of what she was wearing?

Speaker 01: 44:10

Didn't she have like a hat that had like bead curtains? Yes. Or over her face or something.

Speaker 00: 44:15

So that was another thing that was like wow, so very viral, very talked about of everyone just being like, What the fuck is this? Why are you wearing this? You look it could, it's like a borderline serial killer almost. Like you have this mask on, but dazzled.

Speaker 01: 44:29

It's like you're a wannabe Lady Gaga, but just like 10 times less cool than Lady Gaga is.

Speaker 00: 44:35

Yeah, she doesn't have the same energy as Lady Gaga to kind of pull back. No, she doesn't. Yeah. So did you also hear about in 2024 of how she said she wanted to start a new genre of music? No. So you don't know what genre of music she wants to start? No, God. Gay pop. Gay pop already exists. It's called gaga. What? Well, not just gaga, there's so many actual, you know, like it's already exists. She got a lot of backlash for that. They're like people, and exactly. So Tegan and Sarah had kind of side-eyed her and made some videos around, you know, half of the songs that are played on Love Island are songs you only hear in a gay club.

Speaker 01: 45:17

I can't hit it. I'm literally like, whenever I listen to Love Island, like I just feel like I'm transported back to the gay club.

Speaker 00: 45:25

Yes, it's amazing. And so then she kind of backpedaled and she's like, no, no, like I don't mean I'm the inventor of it. I just maybe I'm the president or maybe the CEO or CMO. That was her statement in backpedaling. Exactly.

Speaker 01: 45:38

No, there's so many better gay pop stars than you, Jojo. I'm sorry, I love you, but like, no.

Speaker 00: 45:44

Yeah. But also, it's just more importantly, you're not the first one, you know. It is 2024 at this time. She has like a very strong level of naivety to her, for sure. She's young too. She is definitely young. She's between 20 and 21 when she's making these commentary. So, some other stuff that she got pushed back for at a G-flip concert. She was, I don't know if you saw this video that went viral. Her dance, she was kind of like humping the air, like just doing some crazy dance moves where she just looked absolutely insane. A lot of people were making fun of her for that. She sang this Olivia Rodrigo song where she hit the high note and not the greatest, and published it. She's like, look at me. Like, I kind of did it. I'm getting there, getting closer. And everyone's like, oh my God, that is bad.

Speaker 01: 46:31

Why do you think stuff where I'm like, I kind of love it because it's just the no-shameness of it all. Where for me, it's like, I would never post something where I feel like I didn't look good, sound good. You know what I mean? I'm like so embarrassed, and she's just out there living so loud. She's like, I did my best. And people just destroy her online, and she's just like, that's cool.

Speaker 00: 46:52

I'm good. So she also had the Freddie, Eddie, and Teddy thing. You know about that, how that's what she wants to name her kids. She got a lot of backlash for that. I think that's hilarious. Which I'm like, why do you care? You know, do you know who Trisha Paytas is? No. Okay. I am not surprised. But a huge kind of OG influencer. She just had a baby. Guess what she named her son? Freddie. Aquaman. That is what she named her son. That I can understand being like, excuse me, that should be illegal. That's not okay. That is borderline abusive to your child. Freddie, Eddie, and Teddy. Whatever. It's adorable. Come on. Those are at least real names. Yeah. Sweet. So, and I guess she had got like fake tattoos of their names on. And so then everyone was freaking out about that. So there's just like little things, you know, that she's done that were in the media. She's extra. Very, very extra. What about her relationships?

Speaker 01: 47:49

What do you know? I don't know much. I know she's dated a few different girls, and now Chris Hughes. That's all I know.

Speaker 00: 47:57

A few is an understatement. There are so many people, which by the way, when I was 22, I mean, I wish there were a lot of girls, but there were a lot of guys, a lot of people. And I know for sure you when you were in your 20s, absolute menace to society. I plead the fifth. So it's normal that she's had a lot of relationships, which there's nothing wrong with that. But I'm just How many are we talking?

Speaker 01: 48:23

I thought she said like three.

Speaker 00: 48:25

No, she's had I I found out more as I was doing research for this. And there's sometimes so many that I'm like, it they're just not even relevant. Because it would be a month, whatever. But she, my thing is like, stop posting them. Why every time you start dating someone, do you have to post holding hands with them and be like, look at my new girlfriend? And then 30 days later, you're like, yeah, it didn't work out. It's like you're like, why do you do this to yourself? You know? She's just really excited.

Speaker 01: 48:51

I don't know. So excited she's like a little Yorkie puppy, just like you want to like kick them sometimes? Well, I don't want to kick dogs. No, I mean not really, but you know what I mean. No, I just mean her level of excitement where she's a little ankle biter.

Speaker 00: 49:04

Yeah, just it's a lot. So, do you know about her first girlfriend, Kylie? Anything about that? I know that they lived together. Yes. She moved in, so because Jojo lived with her parents. I think her parents have since moved out because Jojo bought the house, but Kylie moved in with them when they were just 16. So kind of radical, you know, that you're letting your kids' partner move in at 16. That's definitely unusual. But they were best friends. Kylie came out to Jojo first as bi, and then she was like, then I think I'm gay. And then Jojo kind of started developing a crush, and Kylie was sort of like her sexual awakening that way. Still to this day, anytime she's mentioned, she always talks about her very positively. Seems like they're still friends. They're still friendly, which is, I mean, again, on par with the lesbian world, but can't say that for pretty much any of her other relationships. So, so I mean, I guess that's good that they, and maybe it's because they were friends before. I think they were friends for a long time. So they had a really strong foundation. And like I said, it was very innocent, first love, Disneyland-esque, you know, very wholesome and and how she came out and just kind of like a cute, wholesome thing. There was drama, they were on again, off again. There would be girls in between when they would be on and off again. So, again, like we've done these things. You know, she's so young. And similar to our Shannon Beverage episode, which, if you haven't listened to that, you gotta go listen. We talked about the undercover gauge that are all over. The Carmen San Diego's little Carmen San Diego's. You guys are the reason that I have this outline because you guys are the reason that I have all this information. People can the clues that they could pick up on where they're like, that's not Kylie's hand, that's so-and-so's hand. And look at you could tell by this placement. So even when she's not actually overtly posting content with this movie, they still always know. They always figure it out. So there was this other girl, Katie, in between, and there was like some kind of drama going back and forth there. Um, and then she ended up dating someone named Avery Cyrus. Do you know who that is? I think I've seen her online. She's like an influencer, right? She's an influencer, not related to Miley. I just you know, just so you know. And she's also massive on TikTok. She has 12 million followers on TikTok. So whoa, super massive. And they only dated for a few months, but their relationship made some waves in the interwebs. Okay. How so? So you listened to the Caller Daddy interview. So you remember her talking about the relationship that there was like the security breach, she called it. Oh, yes, I did hear about that. So that is Avery, who she's referring to. But the real reason that it kind of started off dramatic right away, and so there's this thing I have to give a shout-out to it. And probably if you're listening to this, you might already know it's called Les Topia. Have you ever heard of that?

Speaker 01: 52:08

Never.

Speaker 00: 52:09

This is a TikTok.

Speaker 01: 52:10

Sounds like something I would like.

Speaker 00: 52:11

You you would definitely like it because it at one point was very centered around Jojo Siwa. Okay. So there's this TikTok creator named Kales who is absolutely hilarious, and she was obsessed with Jojo Siwa, and she was one of those gay gents that was kind of like deep diving all these things, and then she senses kind of become friends with all of them. And but so she has tons. I've learned a lot from her videos. Thank you, Kales. And so Avery was with this other girl, Soph. They were both big TikTokers, millions of followers. It honestly they reminded me of Shannon and Cammy, but TikTok era. So this is like 10 years later, everyone was obsessed with them. They're both really beautiful girls, they're making all couples content together. And basically, Jojo kind of swoops. She swoops Avery.

Speaker 01: 52:59

Whoa, okay, Jojo.

Speaker 00: 53:01

And they're all public, you know, they're all in the public eye this way, and they're all young, young 20s in college, like young girls. But so, of course, TikTok is having a field day with this because Jojo was friends with them and then swooped Avery from Sof.

Speaker 01: 53:16

Okay.

Speaker 00: 53:17

So then Soph was like in her heartbreak era, and we'll probably could do an a whole lore episode on both of those girls as well, because they have a lot, as well as Jojo. But so they kind of started off already dramatic, you know? Everyone was like, Oh my God, I can't believe you left Sophie for Jojo, but it's Jojo, you know, it was like all there was just like a lot of uproar about it. And even though they were only together for a few months, like I don't think it was more than three or four months. So very short period of time. They were still on and off. And Jojo would then be texting Kylie and kind of going back to Kylie. And then it would be like, is Avery talking to Soph again? And you know, that how happy are you we didn't have the internet in that phase of our life? I'm so happy. Especially you.

Speaker 01: 54:01

I did a lot of that going back and forth, and you know, there's a lot of drama in the early 20s.

Speaker 00: 54:08

Exactly. It's like there's already so much drama, but then when it's online as well, and there's literally all of these girls have oh millions of followers, all of them. So there's so many people chiming in and all this stuff. So they kind of broke up multiple times, and they ended up going on this cruise together after they broke up. Avery and Jojo did.

Speaker 01: 54:29

As lesbians do.

Speaker 00: 54:31

Makes sense. I think it was, I think it was like a brand kind of cruise.

Speaker 01: 54:35

It was like an Olivia cruise.

Speaker 00: 54:37

No, it was something that was like put on by a brand where they had invited them. Oh, a brand trip. So they were both already going, and everyone's like, well, and they hadn't really confirmed that they broke up, but then they were kind of in pictures. So everyone is just like gauging hat on what's happening and trying to figure it out. And and you see them kind of featured together, they're like riding a jet ski together, and this is the level of investigating people are doing. They're looking at their jewelry. They're like, Avery used to wear this necklace that had a J on it, and now she's not wearing it anymore. And she and Jojo used to wear this necklace that Avery gave her on this date, and now she's, you know, you can't get anything past these people. Oh my god. Please apply for the CIA. Like, put this together.

Speaker 01: 55:20

That is out of control.

Speaker 00: 55:22

It's so impressive. So essentially they were already broken up, but went on the cruise, and they had this whole kind of rendezvous on the cruise. And then according to Avery, Jojo was like, Whoops, I actually didn't mean that, and I like still don't want to be with you kind of thing. Oh. And so Avery's super sad. And and then she ended up made this is during the karma era. So then Avery ended up making this video saying I something about like, oh, I guess I got my karma for you know, hurting Soph, essentially, because now I am heartbroken and I know what that feels like. And that was kind of the first real confirmation that they were over. Yeah. But according to Avery, she thought that they were so cool. Like she was hurt and she was sad, but she's like, I loved she was there with Jojo's family. Like, I love her family, we're all good. It just didn't work out. Um, but then Jojo goes on to call her daddy and says this whole thing about there was a security breach and what this person did was like so horrible. And she had said that she broke up with Avery in a voice note, and it was a two and a half minute voice note. Avery had responded back with a 47-minute voice note. I know. It makes your butt clench.

Speaker 01: 56:36

Did she ever? I don't remember, did she say what the security breach was? No. Cause she does this. She does this.

Speaker 00: 56:43

She like gives the people a nugget to she's like, I don't want to say anything but my security team set, and she'll like give you just enough that you're like, Well, what the fuck does that mean? And did Avery ever respond to it? Like publicly? She had so also after they broke up, this is great. Avery and Sof had booked a trip to Europe. Keep in mind, her and Jojo only dated for three or four months. So Avery and Sof had booked this trip to Europe when they were still together, that everything was paid for. So they still ended up going on the trip after. As lesbians do, as lesbians do. So the internet was loving that. Avery had made, she had done this stitch video because Jojo had said in the Caller Daddy interview something like, I love one of my exes, the other one I'll never talk to again in my life. And then Avery had made a video being like, Thank God, as a response to it. So I as far as I know, that was kind of her main response. You know, she has since said that kind of similar to what a lot of people who Jojo ends up dating say is like she was a really bad person and she treated me really bad. And I don't know if she used the word sociopath, but like that level of language. As far as I know, kind of the only person that hasn't talked about her like that has been Kylie, has been that first girl. Yeah. So not that long after she started dating a girl named Dikayla. Have you heard of her? Da Kayla. Not Michaela, not Kayla. Um, so she met her on So You Think You Could Dance, where Jojo was a judge.

Speaker 01: 58:14

Okay.

Speaker 00: 58:15

And fans kind of thought it was strange because Jojo had just said, I'm not gonna be public with anyone ever again, and you won't know next time I have a girlfriend, and then all of a sudden she's like, So this is my girlfriend.

Speaker 01: 58:26

Two days later.

Speaker 00: 58:27

So people were like, is she covering up for something? This is when some of the X OMG pop stuff, you know, so it wasn't totally clear of like, is this a real girlfriend? Is this a PR thing? There wasn't that much kind of buzz around this relationship. Some people were kind of digging and being like, oh, she broke up with her because Jojo is a Trump supporter. This was, I saw this in a few videos, but there's not really any evidence of it. Um also, I mean, maybe controversial, but like not necessarily a reason to break up with someone either. Uh, but they're they're young, they're in their 20s. And so these were just kind of rumors that went around, but otherwise the relationship was kind of like a nothing burger. Okay. Enter Cass. What do you know about Cass? Yes. Yes. Well, you know her last name.

Speaker 01: 59:17

I know she's like an Australian podcaster influencer person. They is she a podcaster? I think so. Blogger? Something like that. Blogger, honey. Do people still blog? I don't know. Is that a thing? People blog, right? I mean, not in the way that blogger, podcaster, influencer, it's all just the same, right?

Speaker 00: 59:36

So, yeah, she's an actor influencer. She's from Australia. They met through G Flip, who was friends with both of them and introduced them, and they were friends at first. I love G Flip as well. Oh my gosh, we love. And then it evolved into more, and then eventually they went public in January 2025. So this is kind of bringing us up to date with where we're at, and you're more familiar with this kind of part of the controversies. So can you tell me what you know about everything that happened there?

Speaker 01: 1:00:03

I just know that they were dating for I don't think that long, maybe like less than six months or something. And then Jojo went on big brother. Celebrity brother. While they were while they were still together.

Speaker 00: 1:00:14

Mm-hmm. And what happened there?

Speaker 01: 1:00:16

What I know is that like from all the clips that I saw is that Jojo started to have questions when she was on the show. Started to like she had a I think a lot happened on the show. Like early on, like there was a lot of controversy with Mickey Rourke, said some pretty horrific comments to her.

Speaker 00: 1:00:33

Disgusting.

Speaker 01: 1:00:34

Uh, which I don't even want to repeat, but there were pretty horrific comments um to her and about her. And he ended up getting removed from from the show because it was that bad.

Speaker 00: 1:00:44

And which I will say she handled very gracefully.

Speaker 01: 1:00:47

She did, yeah. That's one thing that I will say. She she's always like very open to different types of people and like willing to have different conversations, which is something that I really respect. It's like willing to talk to people with differing opinions.

Speaker 00: 1:01:00

We need this, we need that, we need this more.

Speaker 01: 1:01:03

She handles it with a lot of grace and respect. And she's like, you know, was really kind to him, even though he was really unkind to her. And I know that one of the moments that brought her and Chris closer together was that because Chris kind of stuck up for her and defended her for from the comments that Mickey had said to her and like comforted her in that time, like gave her a hug, and she kind of like felt safe. Yeah. And so she kind of like, you know, cried a little bit after that. And so then I know the only thing I know is that she started to question her identity on the show and start to wonder if she was queer and not lesbian. And a lot of people at that time were speculating. Well, people were speculating it was because of Chris, but the other counterpoint to that was well, maybe she's um questioning her identity because her partner is non-binary, and a queer identity is a little bit more accepting if you're in a relation, relationship with someone who's nine non-binary. And so it wasn't entirely clear what was happening, but there was a very strong friendship being developed with Chris.

Speaker 00: 1:02:06

And what can you tell the people about Chris?

Speaker 01: 1:02:09

Oh, your face light up.

Speaker 00: 1:02:11

You're like, I love Chris.

Speaker 01: 1:02:12

Chrissy's was on one of the early seasons of Love Island UK. I think like season three. Was it that? I thought it was oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 00: 1:02:19

I think it was season three. Such a good season, by the way. Yeah. You guys have to watch it.

Speaker 01: 1:02:23

It was it was still really early on in Love Island where people weren't famous yet.

Speaker 00: 1:02:27

That was the one that blew them up.

Speaker 01: 1:02:28

That was the one that made Love Island super famous. Because I think, I don't know, I think it was three. And so prior to that, it was like people didn't leave the show famous. And that one they actually left super famous. And so he was on Love Island and he was a main character and was just like hilarious. And I think after Love Island like became an actor, like was one of the first Love Island people to get major acting roles and become like pretty famous um post-show.

Speaker 00: 1:02:56

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So he was in the Celebrity Big Brother house with her, and we didn't watch Celebrity Big Brother. It seems they are literally recorded 20 hours. Yeah. I also don't like how do people have time to watch 24 hours of TV? I don't understand.

Speaker 01: 1:03:14

And you're mic'd up 24 hours a day. Like it's just unbelievable.

Speaker 00: 1:03:17

So I I've only seen clips, but they her and Chris were getting close. People were saying it's emotional cheating. There was definitely flirting going on, but she's like, no, I I I mean, I thought I was a lesbian, first of all, and now she's saying, Oh, I think I'm queer because yeah, my partner is non-binary, so how could I be a lesbian if she doesn't identify as a woman, you know, and just kind of questioning everything? She's 21 years old. Very normal to be questioning everything. And but everyone is just like, What is Jojo doing with this guy? And I thought she was in a relationship, and so everyone is kind of freaking out. Do you know how her and Kath broke up? I do. Yeah, I do.

Speaker 01: 1:03:58

I was following this storyline pretty closely.

Speaker 00: 1:04:00

Yeah, you were following it closer than I was.

Speaker 01: 1:04:02

Yeah, I was so curious to figure out what was going on.

Speaker 00: 1:04:05

Okay.

Speaker 01: 1:04:06

So rumor has it is that Kath flies out for the end of the show. The rap party. There's like a rap party for it. So she flies out for the show and um wants to know immediately what's going on.

Speaker 00: 1:04:23

Flies out to the UK.

Speaker 01: 1:04:24

Yeah, flies to the UK for the rap party and wants to know immediately like what's going on. Apparently, she decides not to actually go to the rap party. So she decides to stay back. Jojo goes, and then Kath changes her mind, decides to show up at the rap party, and then demands to know what's going on.

Speaker 00: 1:04:41

They kind of get in a fight.

Speaker 01: 1:04:42

They get in a fight about it, and Jojo's like, why are you doing this here? This is not the time or place to do it. But like, if you're gonna pull me aside and ask me, I'm gonna tell you that I'm have confused feelings and I don't want to be in a relationship with you anymore.

Speaker 00: 1:04:57

Well, actually, what she well, according to Jojo, what she said when Katha's like, do you still want to do this? And she said, right now, I don't know. If you ask me, she said, or she said something, I don't know. If you ask me right now, the answer is no. But if you ask me tomorrow, the answer might be different. She hadn't slept. She's coming off of this show of being mic'd up film 24-7, is now at this party in the kind of outside world, like super overstimulated. She's like, I don't have an answer. But if if you're forcing me to answer right now, then the answer is no. Like, I can't do this like this. Um, so obviously Kath took it super hard. Of course. The way that Kath describes it in her 13-minute breakup video that I yes, I did, I watched. I watched that.

Speaker 01: 1:05:41

We love doing breakup videos.

Speaker 00: 1:05:44

We love a breakup video in the lesbian world. I mean, truly again, thank you for your service, everyone. So um, she says that she felt like she was collateral damage in the relationship between Chris and Jojo. She makes a point to say that when Jojo's breaking up with her, Chris is in the next room and she kind of is like makes a little face about that. She sort of-I mean, it's the rap party.

Speaker 01: 1:06:05

You brought this up at the rap party. He's part of the cast.

Speaker 00: 1:06:08

And she sort of alludes to love bombing, and she was saying that she thought that Jojo was the love of her life and that they were gonna end up together and everything. And she thought that because Jojo was saying that to her too, which this has been something that is a common thing that girls say after they're with her, which I wouldn't be surprised because she definitely seems like a lover. She seems like the kind of person that will, you know, like anytime she goes to Disneyland or does these things, she'll be like, that was the best time ever. Like every time is the best for the most, she doesn't have this understanding of movement. Very heightened emotions, that's for sure. So I could see that. Um, she said that there was emotional cheating that happened. She was saying, you know, everything that you guys are speculating is true. And she feels really humiliated because the internet had warned her and she thought that Jojo was sincere. And Jojo goes on the biofiles after that, and that was the interview that you heard where she was saying, you know, I didn't know she was gonna release that kind of video.

Speaker 01: 1:07:09

So she kind of had her rebuttal a little bit and talked about the business class flight drama after, where you know, Kath wanted her to buy her business class flight back to Australia, and Jojo was like, Okay, that's that's pretty ballsy to be like, I know you just broke up with me, but like, can you buy me a really expensive plane ticket back? Like, can you upgrade me to business?

Speaker 00: 1:07:32

Yeah. What? I mean, shoot your shot. Jojo said no, so it didn't work, but I'm kind of I would maybe try the same. Why not? Why not try it? Um, and Kath had made this funny video after on TikTok of kind of almost like making fun of themselves about it and being like, oh, it didn't happen. I didn't get the business class plate. So I thought that that was kind of funny.

Speaker 01: 1:07:57

My whole thing with the with the whole situation was her and Chris did like a massive press tour after for like it went on for weeks. It was like a month probably.

Speaker 00: 1:08:06

Yeah. Where they just not Vile Files interviews.

Speaker 01: 1:08:09

She was talking about we're just best friends. Where they just denied, you know, and just like we're just best friends, we're like soulmates in this platonic way. And I'm just like, I don't know if she was just trying to get distanced from her previous relationship before they came out with it, but I'm like, just come out with it already. If if that's really where it's heading.

Speaker 00: 1:08:25

So this is this, and this leads us to the present where people are currently upset with her, is that they felt like she's gaslighting them, where they're like, Why didn't you just tell us we all could see it? It was so obvious. And I think I said this before where it reminds me of me and you.

Speaker 01: 1:08:42

Yeah.

Speaker 00: 1:08:42

Where people would say that about us in our photos when we were just best friends. And like, yes, looking back, we could be like, Oh, yeah, we were already in love, but we weren't ready to admit that to ourselves yet. So we didn't feel like we were lying, first of all. Second of all, normalize lying. People are allowed to lie if they don't want to disclose everything about their private life yet. They are allowed to do that. 100%. I think there's a lot of entitlement in all fandoms of like, no, you owe us. I understand this feeling of like, don't deceive us. Lying does suck, but there's you're allowed to have boundaries with your private life. Of course, yeah. And I think even more so when it comes to your identity and your sexual orientation, it's like you're not gonna bully someone out of the closet and be like, you have to tell us, you know, the same way that some people got mad at me.

Speaker 01: 1:09:29

They also have like a really big age gap, too. There's a I feel like there's a lot going on with them.

Speaker 00: 1:09:33

There's a big age gap. So people were critical of that as well. And then they also came out with their relationship in June, which is Pride Month. So people didn't love that.

Speaker 01: 1:09:44

No.

Speaker 00: 1:09:44

And then shortly after she came out with the Betty Davis Eyes song, and people are like, Oh, great, now we have another trad wife on our hands because Fletcher's come out with her song Boy, which is very tradie in a field daisy, you know, soft girl era. And now JoJo is in this like kind of pinup, you know, very feminine, and everyone's like, Oh, great, the trad wife. I mean, you love it.

Speaker 01: 1:10:10

We love a trad wife for sure. But I would also say that that was like just a song situation. She might have even recorded that before they were together, I think. But she hasn't changed the way that she dresses since she's been with Chris. She still dresses the same way.

Speaker 00: 1:10:25

Which is queer as fuck. Queer AF for sure. Yeah. So, so yeah, there's just been a lot of people are like, you know, upset that she lied, upset about the way that she treated Kath, upset about the way that she's allegedly treated every girl that she's been with, which kind of leads me to the end and my who's the problem, which is who is the problem? Once again, is it JoJo for the way that she has treated some of these people she's been in relationships with, for the way that she has potentially lied to her fans, or are the fans the problem for having this expectation of a very, very young person to have their identity and their sexual orientation all figured out and this entitlement that they have for you have to tell us everything in the moment that you feel it, that you think it, otherwise you're a liar. I don't know. What do you think?

Speaker 01: 1:11:18

It's probably a little bit of both, but like I think she's really mastered the game in a way of like getting people to talk about her and you know, getting those getting attention in eyes and you know, controversy going. I'm I'm gonna go with like with the internet on this one.

Speaker 00: 1:11:33

Yeah, she definitely knows what she's doing. I think had did she make mistakes in relationships and cheat on people and and deceive people, you know, like none of that is cool to do. We know that, and most of us are guilty of similar things, very similar to the Shannon episode where it's like, yeah, you did these things, it's nothing to be proud of. But I do think being this young, there's so much hope that you will change, you know? So people are also kind of laughing because they're saying her and Chris, like she's turning Chris into a lesbian because of how fast they're moving. So I thought that that was kind of funny because he he does have sort of like flamboyant vibes to him. Yeah, he kind of could be a gay man. Yeah, he's he seems fluid as well. But um, yeah, they the same thing where she's like, I'm never gonna post a relationship again, and now all of her content is Chris and constantly crying every time they're apart and just like, I miss him, I love him, where is he? It's very she is very, very much in love.

Speaker 01: 1:12:35

That is apparently they are very in love, and they're they're very sweet together, so I'm happy for them.

Speaker 00: 1:12:41

Yeah, I don't love the age gap.

Speaker 01: 1:12:43

It lasts.

Speaker 00: 1:12:44

I don't love the age gap, but otherwise it's like let her love who she loves and hopefully she treats this person better. Fair enough. What are your final thoughts on Jojo Siwa and then tell me your who's the problem?

Speaker 01: 1:12:57

My final thoughts on Jojo Siwa is that I'm very excited for what could happen for the next 10 years because she has so much of JoJo content. And are so young, there's so much youth ahead of her to make all the mistakes, to date all the people. To have all the Freddies, Eddies, and Teddies. Exactly. Like how many kids is she gonna have? 18. I don't know. She is very stoked to have kids, but I just think she's gonna provide us with so much entertainment for the next 10, 20, 50 years. I agree. So I'm I love it.

Speaker 00: 1:13:29

Thank you for your service. And please don't, you know, mistreat young girls again because that's not cool.

Speaker 01: 1:13:35

Yeah, let's not exploit people. Yeah. Okay, my Who's the Problem is inspired by Glennon and Abby this week. Because I saw a post that they did not too long ago, and um, it's the same challenge that we have in our relationship. And so I thought I would share it with the audience and see what they think who's the problem. Uh so I'm the Abby in this situation, and you're the Glennon. Just to be clear, and that's pretty much the norm across all the challenges that they have. We have the same ones. Okay, so every night we go on a walk together, right? You guys know this about us. I think we've said it a few times. And the thing is, is that we can usually do like two and a half, three miles roughly. And sometimes after two and a half miles, I'm just ready to go home. I don't want to do the last extra half a mile to a mile. I'm just ready to go. It's been a long day, did a workout, and I'm ready to go back. But the thing is, is that you will never just like let me end the walk. You know I don't believe in let them. You are you're like, no, you have to finish the walk with me. Yeah. And I'm just like, no, but like you can keep walking with with our dog, and I'll go home and I'll see you in 15 minutes when you're done with your walk. Like it's totally fine. It's not fine. But we're so codependent that you will not let me leave you, and you'll force me, you'll put me on a death march for the last however length of that I have to go instead of just letting me go home in peace.

Speaker 00: 1:15:08

Okay, if you're on your period, I let you go home. So I do let you do it once a month. Otherwise, I'm just like, you haven't walked enough to meet you. You will shame me. You will shame me. Yeah, it's telling me I can't turn around. It's not as much shame, it's more guilt. Like, why don't you love me? I thought you loved me. I thought you wanted to be together forever. What's happening? Are we over? Like, what's happening?

Speaker 01: 1:15:31

So, who is the problem? Because Glennon also does this to Abby.

Speaker 00: 1:15:35

Yeah. And so I think we know that you guys are the problem.

Speaker 01: 1:15:38

That's I don't think Abby's ever the problem. Let's be clear. She's so sweet.

Speaker 00: 1:15:44

She's a little golden retriever. That doesn't mean you can't piss on the rug sometimes. Okay.

Speaker 01: 1:15:50

Let us know what you guys think.

Speaker 00: 1:15:52

Yes, go to our Instagram and vote. We always put it on the feed and in the stories. It's so fun to hear from you guys. We love you. Thank you for all the Team Alex people out there. No, no, no. And we will see you next week. See you next week. Bye. Bye guys. Thank you so much for listening to the show. We're so happy to have you here. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you're listening to podcasts. We love getting commentary from you on Spotify and on YouTube. And as always, if you love this episode or any of our episodes, make sure to share it with a friend or somebody who will appreciate the conversation.

Speaker 01: 1:16:30

And make sure to follow us on all their socials at Wives Not Sisters Pod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Thanks, guys. See you next week.