Wives Not Sisters
A playful, unfiltered podcast where a married wlw couple dives into the chaos of modern relationships, pop culture, queer lore, and all the little things most people wouldn’t admit out loud.
Wives Not Sisters is a queer-led podcast where marriage meets humor, honesty, and a little too much sharing but in the best way. We’re here to normalize nuance in relationships -- from romantic, platonic, familial, and everything in between- and to create a space where deep conversations and dumb jokes can coexist. Through real talk, playful debates, and just enough oversharing, we’re building a community that’s reflective, ridiculous, and radically relatable.
Wives Not Sisters
Coming Out Confusion: The Most Googled Questions and Our Real Answers
Ever Googled “Am I gay?” You’re not alone.
In this hilarious and heartfelt episode of Wives Not Sisters, Alix and Kayla react to the internet’s most-searched coming-out questions — from “How do I know if I’m gay?” to “Can queer people still travel?” They share their own coming-out stories, red flags (or rainbow flags), gay panic moments, and what it’s really like navigating identity, family, and love in 2025.
00:00 – Online slang test: “Serving cunt,” “shipping,” & other chaotic lingo
09:30 – The most Googled coming-out questions
11:00 – “How do I know if I’m gay?” signs, red flags & rainbow flags
18:00 – Getting turned on by girls in movies — curious or queer?
25:30 – Alix’s coming-out story: Rome, gay panic, & family reactions
40:00 – Kayla’s story: falling for a girl abroad, the art of downplaying it
52:00 – Labels, fluidity & self-acceptance
55:00 – Can gay people still be successful & travel?
1:03:30 – “Who’s the Problem?” segment — Griselda betrayal & dirty dishes
#WivesNotSisters #ComingOutStory #AmIGay #LGBTQPodcast #QueerLove #LesbianPodcast #RelationshipGoals #WLW #ComingOutTips #QueerStories
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Follow our hosts on Instagram: @kaylalanielsen @alix_tucker
You can also watch our episodes on Youtube at youtube.com/@wivesnotsisterspod!
Hey guys, it's Alix. And Kayla. And we're married. Not related.
Speaker 01:Definitely codependent. But in a cute way. And honey, I think you finally officially have nailed the intro.
Speaker 02:I hope so. You finally learned it. I don't know. I still mess it up.
Speaker 01:We are married, not related, definitely codependent.
Speaker 02:All things that are true.
Speaker 01:And we're so excited that you're here with us. Welcome back. Do it. Before we dive in, you know, you know what I gotta do. I just have to say thank you, thank you, thank you to everyone who's listening. Not just for being here, but also for we get messages all the time. First of all, we love getting messages when people are like, I love this episode, or I'm so a Kayla on this, or I'm an Alix on that, or I'm a perfect mix of the two of you. It's so funny to get all of these DMs from you guys. But it's really harsh when my friends are throwing me under the bus. Like, what is that? It's even better when we get reviews. And I love the comments on the Spotify. Did you go and check them? You probably forgot. Or probably forgot. I don't know.
Speaker 02:I think I no, I think I saw that.
Speaker 01:Spotify, YouTube. We love it. So thank you for joining us. Thank you for being here. Joining us on socials. Remember, if you love this episode, or I guess even if you hate it and you just want to bitch about it with one of your friends, send it to them. Commiserate over our horribleness. But um before we get into today, it's my turn to lead. Oh, yes. It is. It's my turn to lead. Is it? Yes.
Speaker 02:I thought it was mine. No. And then I realized I don't have anything to do.
Speaker 01:I don't know. It's like one of those dreams where you stand up and you're like, oh wait, I don't know what's happening. It's my turn to lead. Okay. So what are we doing today? All you have to do is sit back, relax, and fail this test miserably. Oh no. Because that's what's gonna be. Am I gonna struggle? I don't know. I'm I've told you some of these things before. So this is really a test of your listening skills, as we talked about in our last episode, which is a trigger for us fighting fair. Okay. No, I'll do my best. This is really just a silly little online lingo test. Oh, I'm really bad at this stuff, though. For anyone who doesn't know, Alix is pretty chronically offline. Okay, that's not entirely true. You are always on your phone. You are online, but you're not looking at the same kind of stuff where this lingo would be present.
Speaker 02:Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't show up on my pages.
Speaker 01:Doesn't cross your desk, so to say. So I've done this before on my socials, and yeah, you failed pretty miserably. So let's see how it goes this time. These are new words. Don't give me that look. Okay. These are new words. Okay, so let's start out easy. What is shipping?
Speaker 02:Oh, I've been using this recently.
Speaker 01:Okay.
Speaker 02:Uh I don't know if I can use it in a sentence though, but like you don't have to use it. It's like invented. Oh, how did I use it? I used it in an episode recently. Like, and I even put it. We're getting shipped right now.
Speaker 01:Yeah. So what does that mean?
Speaker 02:It means like people want them to be together or something like that.
Speaker 01:Yeah, yeah, exactly. So a really good example is Nickelandria. That's their ship name.
Speaker 02:People are shipping them. They're like rooting for them. They want them to be together.
Speaker 01:Yeah. So it's like you can ship someone that's a verb. You are wanting them to be together.
Speaker 02:Is it shortened for relationship?
Speaker 01:Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So this is another one that you might know because I'm starting off easy. Don't try to look at the iPad. I keep seeing you glance down. What is a stan?
Speaker 02:You've told me this. It's like a it's like a hardcore fan.
Speaker 01:Okay. Yeah. Like a super fan. Super fan.
Speaker 02:Yeah. I don't understand what the why it's not just San and instead it's stan. Like super fan, but where's the T come from?
Speaker 01:Uh good question. Maybe it doesn't mean super. Maybe it's like stupid fan.
Speaker 02:I don't know. What else is a I don't know. It's like an intense fan.
Speaker 01:Yeah. Okay. If somebody says body is tea, is that a compliment? You have to use words. This is a podcast. You can't just make faces.
Speaker 02:Maybe people are watching on YouTube. I don't know. Uh is that a compliment? Body is tea. Isn't tea like it's like hot, right? And well, it's like a gossip.
Speaker 01:Yeah, which you only just learned very recently. Yeah. It's like it's a good thing. Question mark? It is a good thing. So it's like body is tea. It's hot. Like you said, like hot. Tea is hot. So yeah, good job. Good job. You got there in the end. Okay. If somebody says, I want to serve cunt today, is that a good thing? I don't like that word. Is it a bad thing? Is it that they shouldn't be using that word? Okay. Relax, grandpa. Relax. What if I said to you, you showed up in your podcast chair today, I said, Oh my god, honey, you're serving cunt today. Would you like it? No, you wouldn't like it, but I'm I would hate that. Is it a compliment?
Speaker 02:Say that to me. I'm on the Is it complimentary? I'm guessing that they're taking the word back in this case, so it probably means something good, like you're like a sassy biatch or something. I don't know.
Speaker 01:Yeah, so it's it's a compliment.
Speaker 02:It sounds like something in a gay dude would say to a girl.
Speaker 01:Yeah. So if you're saying like, yeah, you're cunty, it your face. I don't like it. Okay, so just so you know, in case anyone ever says that to you, hey Alix, you're serving cunt. Please don't ever say that to me. The next time you're on one of your work calls, if someone says that to you, that would never happen. It's a compliment. Okay, just know that. Okay, what is a B E C? What? B E C. What's a B E C? What does that stand for? Let's start there. I I don't even know where to start.
Speaker 02:What do you mean? Like like B period, E period, C period?
Speaker 01:Yes.
Speaker 02:I have no clue.
Speaker 01:Try. Something that starts with a B.
Speaker 02:Um ever. I I don't know.
Speaker 01:Okay. No. So I'm gonna tell you what it stands for, and then maybe you could tell me the definition. It stands for bitch eating crackers. Okay? What? What does that mean? If you say, yeah, she's my B E C, she's my bitch eating crackers, what does that mean? Like you're eating out of the palm of my hand? It no, that's an interesting thought. But okay, is this complimentary or is that derogative? No, that sounds not nice. Okay, but why? Like, what does it mean? It means something bad.
Speaker 02:Like, I don't like it. Don't say this to me.
Speaker 01:Well, a bitch eating crackers or BC is basically somebody who it's like, no matter what they do, even if it's something as simple as just eating crackers, you'll still find a reason to hate on it. Like that's how much you dislike them. Even when they're not doing anything wrong, it's still wrong because they just give you the ick or annoy you that badly.
Speaker 02:I hope no one ever says that about me.
Speaker 01:That Alix Tucker. She's my B E C. Yikes. Okay, and then we're gonna end on a pretty easy one, I think. What is coded? If somebody was listening to a commentary, it's like a hidden message. Well, that's like the definition of coded in the dictionary. But okay, can you use it in an example sentence?
Speaker 02:Like I've heard someone say like it's like um queer coded, maybe that's queer coded. Queer coded, yeah.
Speaker 01:Yeah. So what does that mean?
Speaker 02:It means that like there's like queer undertones.
Speaker 01:Yeah, it's like you in a nutshell. You know, it's like let's say someone was having a conversation with one of their friends, and their friends were a married couple that were kind of like us, and they were like, oh my god, that's so why is not sisters coded. That whole conversation you just had, you know?
Speaker 02:Okay, I don't know how to define that, but yes, I think I understand.
Speaker 01:Okay, let's let's try one last one. What does TFW stand for? TFW. If I say like TFW, your dog puts your paw her paws on your chest, or like you kiss your dog, or something like that. It doesn't have to be about a dog, it could also be like TFW, your wife hugging you when she gets home from work.
Speaker 02:It sounds nice. You're getting all the time But it's I would have thought like the fucking worst, but it sounds like it's like the fucking best, you know?
Speaker 01:It's that feeling when. Oh. Yeah. So it's not, it's just you know that feeling when. Yeah. TFW. Yeah, don't know. But you actually did really good. I didn't keep score. I don't think you kind of got all of them right, but in a weird roundabout way. I don't think I got most of them right. No, you did. Well, other than bitch bitch eating crackers was the only one you just fully didn't know, but the rest you kind of got right. So I'll take it.
Speaker 02:I won.
Speaker 01:I won the game. You win maybe a kiss on the cheek later. Yes. Maybe. Okay. But do you want to tell people what we're really talking about today? Ooh. Do you remember?
Speaker 02:I think we're talking about about it has to do with um Googling.
Speaker 01:Yeah. Googling what?
Speaker 02:Coming out questions. Yes.
Speaker 01:Coming out confusion, the most Google questions and our real answers.
Speaker 02:I'm so curious to see what people are Googling.
Speaker 01:I know.
Speaker 02:Because it's like it's so interesting that people would turn to Google to be like, am I gay?
Speaker 01:But I've heard so many queer people say this. I know. I I don't think I ever did that. Well, you came out prehistoric times.
Speaker 02:We had Google.
Speaker 01:You had Google, but it wasn't as much of a thing where people were Google, like, didn't know how to use their own minds to think for themselves.
Speaker 02:Yeah. Because, like, definitely, like later on, you know, more like when I was around 30, I definitely used Google to be like, how do I break up with somebody or like, yeah, exactly? How do I do this? How how do I handle this? And I feel like people rely on AI now to do that, like to make every decision in their life. Yeah. So I wonder how many people are asking Chat GPT, like, am I gay? How do I know I'm gay?
Speaker 01:Yeah. I mean, I would imagine it's probably one in this, like it would be very similar searches that would come up. I also never Googled it. I don't know why. Probably because I didn't have service. That's my guess. I don't know. I just didn't, I don't think to turn to Google. But this is something that comes up in a lot, so many coming out stories that I've heard of. So I thought that it would probably be relatable and relative to our audience.
Speaker 00:Relevant.
Speaker 01:That that. Okay, perfect. Okay, so this is the first one, which is pretty straightforward. How do I know if I'm gay, lesbian, bi, queer, you know, all of the things? Trans can also be in there. We're also, by the way, predominantly only speaking to being queer sexually, you know, because we don't have an experience being queer genderly. Gender-wise. Gender-wise, yeah. Yeah. So, but a lot of the searches that came up were about transness, but it was we can't really speak from our experience on that.
Speaker 02:So no.
Speaker 01:So, how do I know?
Speaker 02:How do I know if I'm gay? I don't know. Like, I mean, there's some giveaways. There's some signs. Like, when I look back, it's kind of like I probably should have known a lot earlier. There were a lot of red flags, if you will. There's a reason there were a lot of rainbow flags.
Speaker 01:There's a reason why no one in your life was surprised when you came out, yeah. Other than you, for some reason.
Speaker 02:Yeah, I think people were kind of like waiting my whole life to just admit it to myself almost. Because when I was a little kid, it was just like, well, a lot of people are tomboys when they're little. Yeah. But I was like the ultimate tomboy, I think. Was just like, but not just when you were little.
Speaker 01:You stayed that way. Um, yeah. You're very, you know, you were athletic, for sure. Some, you know, not you were never hyper girly by any means. Never. Never. Yeah.
Speaker 02:But yeah, when I especially when I was little though, it was just basically like I was only wearing soccer shorts and oversized t-shirts and a backwards hat, pretty much until I was like 13.
Speaker 01:Yeah, that's not that little. I thought you were gonna say until I was like six.
Speaker 02:Middle school or something.
Speaker 01:Well, didn't you say you thought you were a boy until you were six? I think I've yeah. Because you have four older brothers. Maybe even until I was like seven or eight. It's unclear. You realized Santa was not real before you realized you were not a boy.
Speaker 02:I was like the little kid on the soccer field who's like eight years old, and like after the game is over, like rip my shirt off, you know.
Speaker 01:You're like wearing a cup. There's nothing to protect.
Speaker 02:People don't wear cups in soccer. They don't like I would be like, rip off my shirt, you know? And it's like before you're wearing sports bra. I just like didn't want I didn't want to wear sports.
Speaker 01:Yeah, when you're seven, that's but yeah, little girls are not.
Speaker 02:I thought I was a little boy, I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 02:So there was red, there was definitely some rainbow flags for me.
Speaker 01:I knew people like you in school, in high school and everything, where it was just because back then it wasn't, it just wasn't as typical to come out and probably not as safe to come out. So I don't think anyone in our high school came out. I don't want to say maybe, I don't remember. But even people who were pretty obviously, like kind of even flamboyantly gay, but it was like, no, we just don't talk about that.
Speaker 02:Yeah. And that's how I imagine you. But what were some of your rainbow flags? Because it's like you didn't have that experience. You were like girly girl, you were like boy crazy when you were really young.
Speaker 01:Yeah. I mean, it never stopped until now. Don't worry. But my signs were more just that I kind of always liked boys and girls equally that way. You know, like I had the first time I kissed a girl, I was probably six. The first time I kissed a boy, I was probably five. And then, and then once it became time to like really start making out, you know, kiss. I'm talking about a peck. But then when it comes time, like middle school, when you're like talking about making out in the movies and that kind of thing, which is so disgusting to think about now. 12 year olds, like, yeah, oh um, yeah, I would practice with one of my girlfriends and we'd be like, Yeah, we're practicing for boys, but we just kept going. We just kept going.
Speaker 02:And then every time you were a very curious child.
Speaker 01:Every time we would have sleepovers, we're like, should we practice? Like, we really went for the practice. We really need to practice for like six hours tonight so that we're good for the and but but we also knew that it was like it was embarrassing almost. It's one it wasn't embarrassing to just say, like, oh yeah, I've kissed my friend to practice for a boy. But then once it was like as deep as it was, where I'm pretty sure we were dating. I don't know what was happening. We knew that that was really like we couldn't tell people about that.
Speaker 02:But it also never made you question like you were you weren't Googling, am I gay?
Speaker 01:I don't think Google did exist back then, did it? Yeah, it did. Well, I definitely didn't know how to use it then. So so yeah, those were my rainbow flags, I would say were much more sexual. Yours were kind of like cute and innocent.
Speaker 02:Sounds about right for the story of our lives.
Speaker 01:Okay, next question. If I'm a girl who wants to kiss another girl, does that mean I'm gay? Maybe. That's kind of what I'm talking about. Maybe it just might. This is the thing, and it might not. And we could probably just end this episode right here and now if I just say if you're Googling any of these questions, the answer is yes, you are probably queer. Yeah, definitely if you're asking the internet, the answer is yes. The answer is yes, because straight people, whether they exist or not, TBD. They're not asking asking Google if they're straight. Ever. Ever. Ever. They're not really thinking you don't think about your sexuality when you're straight. Not really. It's like you might think about your sexual preferences and you know, maybe you're into different kinks or whatever it is, but you're not, I don't know. That's I just think if you're asking the question, yes, the answer is yes.
Speaker 02:The answer is there's something there. Explore.
Speaker 01:So what would you say if somebody said that? If I'm a girl who wants to kiss another girl, does that mean I'm gay?
Speaker 02:You may not be gay, but you're probably queer.
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 02:You know, and then you've got some exploring to do, Dora. So now the fun part begins if you haven't already explored. So that's what I would say. It's like there's probably something going on.
Speaker 01:You would probably before me would be like, I don't know, you want to try? I mean, yeah. We can find out. Yeah. So yeah, I would say that question is like follow the rainbow brick road. Okay, if I like watching two girls kiss, then am I gay? Well, this is an interesting one. Not necessarily because I think a lot of straight girls claim to like lesbian porn.
Speaker 02:Yeah. And obviously, straight dudes like it. Well, so obviously. I think that yeah, if you're watching a same-sex make out or sex scene or something, and you're getting a little frisky, then it doesn't necessarily mean anything. I think it's like it's also something that may be like novel or new, and that can be really exciting. And so it doesn't necessarily have to mean that you're queer, but it could be a sign.
Speaker 01:Yeah, I kind of feel like I would say it kind of seems queer to me.
Speaker 02:I don't know. I would say for me, when I saw two girls kiss, and like for me, it was like Marissa in the OC when Marissa and Alix kissed. Like Marissa, not our friend Marissa, Marissa and Alix in the OC.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:It was like I had to obsessively watch it over and over. Like over and over. It was like I was so excited by it, and like so I didn't know what the feeling was at the time, but it was just like, yeah, you're like getting turned on essentially. You're like 14. You don't like fully comprehend all the butterflies happening, but you're just like, I don't know what this is, but this is the best thing I've ever watched, and I have to keep watching it over and over. But also, I don't want anyone to know that I'm obsessively watching this. That's how I was about boobs.
Speaker 01:But not tell me more. Not because it's like I can't remember if I saw girls kissing on TV back then. I'm trying to think of I never watched the OC, but that I'm saying like this was before the OC would have come out, anyways. It wasn't we didn't really see a lot of lesbian stuff on just mainstream TV. No, so I don't remember seeing girls kissing, but even if it was not a lesbian scene, but just like a topless girl in a movie, then I would rewind it over and over and over.
Speaker 02:Would you really?
Speaker 01:Yeah. But then I would also be like, obviously, no one can know about this. But I also didn't connect the dots. Like, does that it it was such a weird thing? It was like obviously a shame thing that was making me be like, no one could know. But then I also think even if I was doing that for a dick, I would probably be like, Oh, I don't want anyone to know about this.
Speaker 02:Yeah, either way. It didn't feel Yeah, you don't want people when you're a teenager, you don't want people probably into your sexual curiosity.
Speaker 01:Exactly. But so it didn't, it didn't connect to me the the gayness of it, but looking back, I'm like, yeah, that was probably a sign. I don't think my supposed straight friends, in quotes, were doing that.
Speaker 02:No, I don't think that they were like obsessively re-watching things, probably like us, but I think if you watch something and you get turned on by it, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're queer, but if you're obsessively watching it and like rewatching it, that's definitely an indication.
Speaker 01:Okay, that is a good distinction. But I just feel like if I because queerness is such there's such a spectrum of it that it's like maybe you would never act on it, maybe I don't know, but it's just right, like if you're a hundred percent straight, this mythical hundred percent straight person that we can't tell if it's real or not, don't you think they would not get aroused?
Speaker 02:No, I don't think so. Because I think it's like novel. It's the same way in which I can be turned on by you know, a straight scene or straight people having sex in porn or something. Because that's novel to me. And and I and I do. And that that doesn't make me straight. So I think, you know, I think that's something where it's anything sexual, yeah. Anything sexual. I think people can get turned on by all sorts of stuff and doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Speaker 01:Or even how I know a lot of lesbians like to watch gay man porn. Yeah, that's a big thing. And we talked about the Jiz Portal in the by girls versus lesbians episode. And okay, that this makes it even more confusing because you're saying this idea of like lesbians, or at least for you, it's like not wanting a dick anywhere in the bedroom. I know you don't like gay man porn.
Speaker 02:No, it's not not my personal preference.
Speaker 01:But yeah, it's just that makes it even more surprising to me because I I don't like it. I I hardly even like straight, I mean, I don't really watch porn, first of all. But even I'm just talking about like a sex scene in a movie. Yeah. And but especially if it is more explicit, like I don't even really like looking at dicks. Like they feel aggressive, they are aggressive. So two dicks, it's nothing about the fact that the guys are gay. I obviously don't care about that because they're also gay. It's just too much aggressive dick.
unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 01:So I'm like, how do lesbians like that? That's shocking to me.
Speaker 02:I don't know, but people like all sorts of different things, and that's okay. Of course. But I'm just saying, if you watch something and it turns you on, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are that thing. It could just be something new and exciting, and that, you know, it's the same way in which you could be like, I watched a threesome and got turned on, but I don't want to have a threesome or something like that. You know, it's like I think there's there's a lot, there's a really wide range of things that people can get turned on by, and it doesn't necessarily mean that that defines their sexuality.
Speaker 01:Yeah. But if you watch it and then Google the question after, I think that's different, right?
Speaker 02:Right? No, because they might just be like curious about themselves.
Speaker 01:I feel like that's gay panic happening. It may not be panic. I don't know. Because if you watch slightly aroused, and someone is like, whatever, it's just sexual, and sexuality is arousing. They they go throughout their day versus.
Speaker 02:Yeah, I mean, it's definitely, yeah. If you're I don't know, but the thing is is that I know a lot of overthinkers.
unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 02:Like my Libras out there, they're like overthinkers, and and so they like spiral sometimes, and then they might just like turn to Google to try to help with the the anxiety mind and spiraling, when in fact they might just it's okay. Maybe you're straight, or maybe you're like just on the slight curve, you know? You're on the slight on the Kinsey scale, and that's okay. It doesn't have to mean anything. Don't panic.
Speaker 01:Yeah. Okay. So I mean, the next one is it's kind of the same. If I get turned on by girls in movies, am I a lesbian or am I just curious? All the above. So I mean, okay, this is the real answer. It's like the only way to know is to try. Right?
Speaker 02:Yeah. Yeah. Because I think I think for most, or not most people, but I think for a lot of people, what happens is, you know, maybe they meet someone or maybe they get turned on by something and she pointing at me. Create some pointing to the iPad. It creates some like curiosity. And then now the exploring phase happens, or like for me, it was like I met this girl, and it the it was like we were like magnets. It was just an undeniable attraction. Okay, relax. Okay, don't even you know, I needed some like liquid courage to go there, but once I went there, I was like, wow, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. This is so exciting.
Speaker 01:Did you ever consider that you were bi? Or did you just jump straight to Gay Town?
Speaker 02:No, I didn't jump straight to Gay Town, that's where I was going with those was that like at first I just thought that I would only ever feel this way about her, where I was just like so attracted to her and just so into her. And but I was like, but that I don't see being gay as what my life path is.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And then, you know, and so then that kind of like begs for further curiosity and further exploration till you know I eventually landed on lesbian. But yeah, but so I don't know, it can it can take time to figure out.
Speaker 01:So did you like did even the word bisexual ever come up for you in your kind of pondering? It was no, it was more like because from the time you were with her to the time you came out to your family, how long was it? Like a year. And well, actually, do you want to just tell them a little bit about your coming out? Yeah. Because you met her, she kind of pulled you out of the closet.
Speaker 02:Yeah. So I'd met this girl um when I was studying abroad, and I was living in Rome, Italy, and uh, I must have been giving off big gay vibes because that's what I do. And I was walking up to class one day and she was like, Hey, you know, you look cool. Do you want to hang out? And she was like smoking a cigarette. She was like the coolest person I've ever seen. You really need to relax. She was just a total babe. Wow. And um, and I was I was like really thrown thrown off by it. Cause I was like, I think she might be like hitting on me. And I was like, felt really awkward and uncomfortable, but like also excited because I was like, she's really pretty and like cool. And and I went home and from class later and uh told my roommate about it. She's like, Oh, that's Cammy. You met Cammy? Oh, she's so cool. And she's like, Did you know she's a lesbian? And instantly in my gut, I was like, I'm even more excited to hang out with her now. Yeah. Which is a dead giveaway that you're queer is if you find out someone's gay and then you really want to hang out with them because you're so curious and excited.
Speaker 01:That question should be on here, but people probably don't even realize to Google it, but that is such a giveaway.
Speaker 02:Because in my coming out story, like, or one of like my big red flags is this like anytime someone who was gay invited me to hang out with their friends, I got so excited to spend time with them. Yeah. And it was just like I wanted to like be super cool. I wanted to like look good, you know.
Speaker 01:I was just all around them.
Speaker 02:So I just wanted to be like super close. And so, anyways, we be, you know, became friends. And there was like, I I started to notice I was like attracted to her, but nothing ever happened. Fast forward like two years later, at the end of college, I ended up going to visit her, and it was like just so intense. And we ended up making out when we were super drunk, and it kind of like kickstarted our relationship. But there was still for me, there was a lot of gay panic, gay panic happening, and there was a lot of fear about coming out because I thought that I would be rejected. I thought that, you know, my family would reject me. I thought I couldn't be successful in the world. It was a very different time.
Speaker 01:I was gonna say, for a little context, because this was what year? 2009. Yeah, and you were from early, you're from Wisconsin, from a pretty conservative upbringing and and just location, culture, all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 02:I didn't really know anyone who was gay. I didn't have there weren't like great gay role models around me. So I I didn't see like people, you know, in corporate jobs having success who were gay. It was just not something that was around me. And so it really put in my head that I was gonna really struggle. And so it was just a different time. You know, at that time there was no gay marriage, it was not a thing. Uh, and so you you're it felt like a huge sacrifice to come out. And so when we started dating, it was like we fell in love so hard and so instantaneous, like first loves do, but also like lesbians do.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And um, but I was having like a lot of internal panic and anxiety of being found out because I wasn't out at the time and I was having this relationship with her.
Speaker 01:You're Miley Cyrusing.
Speaker 02:Yeah, and so I was really um my best friend caught us, and that's when my panic really set in was like, people are gonna find out, my life's gonna fall apart. And I was like, it was a really scary time. I started having panic attacks and had to go to therapy for the first time. And so this was going on for a year, like you said, yeah, and didn't it didn't go on for like no, it was probably like a six month time period, it was a year until I told her.
Speaker 01:And you guys, because were you in a committed relationship? Because didn't you say at some point too, you also were like we were making out with guys, we were not in a committed relationship because
Speaker 02:I was not out. Yeah. So it's hard to be in a committed relationship when you're not out. Yeah. She was fully out. And for me, it was just like, I don't know if I'm ready to fully accept that this is going to be the rest of my life, I think is what it was. And I had a lot to process. And it was like through therapy that I got to the point of like, yes, you are a lesbian. You're not actually interested in men, but like you're so worried about your life falling apart that you can't like accept that yet. Yeah. And so it took me time to get there.
Speaker 01:Yeah. Because because part of that weren't you also making out with guys still sometimes when you would get drunk and yeah. Because I didn't want to be gay. Exactly. Not because you and but wouldn't that almost make you feel kind of worse?
Speaker 02:Yeah, I felt like a horrible person because I was so in love with her and I felt shame for like hurting her.
Speaker 01:And you didn't like the guy. Like it was just the whole cycle of it, which I think I'm just mentioning that because I think that's really common. Yeah. With people and also be in a shame spiral. Kind of, you know, in relation to the buy girls versus lesbian episode that we did, where, you know, we're talking about more this idea that bi people can choose one or the other. And of course they're gonna, these are the stereotypes. Like, of course, they're gonna go with the man, but same can kind of go with baby gays, even if they're like, no, I'm a lesbian. I've just heard a lot of stories like that when they're in that gay panic, first coming out phase, trying to figure it out because they're sort of like half in the closet, half not, like not wanting to accept being gay. So they keep hooking up with the opposite sex to try to ungay themselves. Yeah. And that's obviously really hurtful to whoever they are in love with because I think not everybody, but it is pretty common for people to find out about their queerness because they fall for someone. I would say it's less common for you to just realize, like, oh, I just like both kind of organically, without there being this like one person that is sort of bringing that out. I think it's becoming more common now where people are, you know, like so different now. It's younger kids are even considering their sexuality.
Speaker 02:Yeah, it's everywhere in TV shows, like you have role models out in the world. It's it's a totally different world now.
Speaker 01:Yeah. So, um, okay. Do you want to tell them what happened when you talk to your family finally? Because it's a very cute story.
Speaker 02:Sure. Yeah. So I eventually eventually told my family. And I, some of my siblings I'd already told, but I had not yet told my parents. My and the siblings I had told all had reacted really positively. Like my sister was basically like, I'd asked her to go to lunch, and she'd like basically been waiting for me to tell her. So she was like, I was wondering when you were gonna like come around to tell me. And then my brothers were like, show me who you're hooking up with. And they're like, How are you hooking up with girls that are hotter than the girls that we're hooking up with? So they were just like yeah, competitive was weird growing up. Uh, but they were super supportive. And then when I ended up telling my parents, I was really nervous because my dad is very conservative, more from the south. We're we were never religious, but we, you know, from a small town in Wisconsin.
Speaker 01:He's also a lot older.
Speaker 02:He's a lot 84 now. So he's he was like 45-ish when he had me. So much older, different different generation. And um, and so, anyways, I was really nervous to tell him because also I lost my mom when I was little. And um, and so my dad was like, you know, my role model. He's my main parent, right? And so the thought of like being rejected by like your last parent thought it felt very overwhelming. And so finally on Christmas, I'm having so much anxiety, I'm like crying, and my sister's just like Christmas, yeah, Christmas Day, where we're all together, and my sister's like, come on, like, you know, let's just do it now. Let's just get it over with. Like, you'll feel better. She knew I was having such a hard time. So we all went into the office of my sister's house and uh with my parents, and I couldn't do it. I couldn't say the words. I was like, I was crying.
Speaker 01:Say what words? I'm gay or okay.
Speaker 02:I couldn't bring myself to say the words to my parents.
Speaker 01:Have you said them out loud to anyone yet? Yeah, I told you my siblings. But did you say it that way, like I'm gay? Yeah, okay.
Speaker 02:And so my sister was like, Can I tell them? And I was like, Yeah. She was like, Well, you know, Alix wants to share like that she's gay. And and I was like looking at their reaction, like, please take this well, you know. And my dad was had a really sweet sweet reaction. He was started to cry, and he was like, you know, it he's like, I saw that you've been having a really hard year, and I didn't know why. But he's like, the fact that it was because you didn't want to tell me that this is what it was, and that would be that I would essentially be causing you pain. He's like, that makes me feel really sad. And I just want you to know that there's nothing that you could ever do or like be that would ever stop me from loving you because you're my soulmate, which was like such a beautiful moment. So cute. Yeah, it was a really beautiful moment. And um, and then we walked out of the office and my stepmom went, called it. And that was a really cute moment because she I like like you said, everybody had just been waiting, I think.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:Uh, and so it was very sweet.
Speaker 01:That is really cute. Very, very cute. Okay, next question. If I think a girl is pretty, does that mean that I'm bi?
Speaker 02:I don't think so. No, because I think dudes are attractive all the time. Like you can acknowledge that someone is attractive, someone is an attractive person. Yeah. That's different than being it's attracted to them. Exactly.
Speaker 01:Yeah, being attracted to them is a feeling in the body.
Speaker 02:You will know that feeling virtually butterflies, if you're feeling it in your loins, or if you're obsessively thinking about somebody, like maybe you saw somebody, like a girl at lunch, and she's your friend or something, or friend, friend, and you can't stop thinking about them, or you want to be close to them, or you want to reach out to them.
Speaker 01:It's like the physical proximity to them, too. Of like, I want not even in a sexual way, but just like you want to always sit next to them. It has to be so close, so close.
Speaker 02:Can you can you talk about when we were at that dinner and I touched your leg?
Speaker 01:Yeah. But yeah, that's a perfect example of like just not, it's not about thinking that you're pretty or not. It so when we first met, and go back and listen to that first episode that we did, if you want to hear the whole story, if you haven't already. When we first met, and uh, you know, naturally we're friends first. I didn't know that I was queer. You were a huge lesbian. That was very obvious. So, um, and I had that also that same feeling that you were talking about when you find out someone is gay or queer in any way, you're like, oh, okay. Now all of a sudden we are best friends for some reason. Like I need to be so close to you all the time. And um, I had that feeling of that close in proximity as well. Like, not just at the dinner, but also getting in the hammock with you, sharing a bed with you, and not even, again, not in a sexual way, but just I've I've done these things with my friends who were girls so many times. So many times, never felt anything. And we were at this dinner, and essentially there was a lot of really nasty old white expat man, men there. This was in Nicaragua, and they were talking about I mean, they were just talking about locals in a really disgusting way, like really repulsive. I don't even know why or how we were at this dinner, but we were kind of trapped there because our place was like five miles away.
Speaker 02:And someone, someone had given us a ride, so we couldn't leave.
Speaker 01:We hadn't leaving. So we're just suffering through this dinner. And you and the guy said something gross, and you reached under the table and you grabbed my leg, you squeezed my knee to be like, oh my God, what a fucking asshole. Essentially, you know, it was not sexual. I had shorts on, so it was my bare thigh. And I was just like, oh my God. Uh like it was just like a full feeling through my body.
Speaker 00:Full body reaction.
Speaker 01:Yeah, of just like, okay. Because again, I've had plenty of girlfriends, like that could have happened with so many of my other friends that were girls if we were at that same dinner and they could have reached on their table and grabbed my knee to give me this signal, and I wouldn't have felt anything. But it's just stuff like that where it's like, okay, that's different than just thinking someone is pretty or liking.
Speaker 02:That's like I have an attraction for you. I don't just think that you are an attractive person.
Speaker 01:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. How to come out.
Speaker 02:Oh, I don't know if there's a right way to come out or a wrong way to come out.
Speaker 01:I mean, you know my stance on this. Yeah. Tell them.
Speaker 02:Tell them what your stance is.
Speaker 01:Okay, I will caveat this by saying this is also with the assumption that you are in a place where there's safety. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not saying, oh yeah, do this if you're living in the Middle East and your physical safety is at risk. Or, I mean, obviously, there's plenty of places in the states or households in the states where it's also not safe. So this is more of just if you are kind of like me or you, like you're you were scared that maybe you would feel rejected, but you were never threatened safety-wise for coming out. So just someone who's maybe having a hard time accepting it. My plan, my strategy with coming out, which is the same thing that I do with kind of everything, if it's like this, where it's a big deal, but I don't want it to be a big deal, then I just act like it's not a big deal, you know? It's kind of like gaslighting, I guess, a little bit. You're just making it seem like, oh, I didn't tell you that already. Oh, yeah. By the way, um So how did you do it? So to who?
Speaker 02:Well, how did you like to your friends when you first told like how did you downplay it so it didn't come off as a big deal?
Speaker 01:Yeah. So the well, the very first friend that I told, I think it that one I wasn't taking, I didn't have the strategy yet.
Speaker 02:Okay. So the But she was your safe friend.
Speaker 01:Yeah, yeah. I mean, all of my friends were safe.
Speaker 02:Yeah.
Speaker 01:Or so I thought. It turns out they weren't, but I thought that they were at the time. Um, but yeah, I I told her, you know, I was like, yeah, I like kind of had this crush on this person. And I was just beating around the bush. It was in a voice note too, so she couldn't really like say something back. I was like, I have this crush on this person, but I feel like I shouldn't. Like, I'm kind of just going back and forth. I'm like, yeah, and because, you know, like it's, you know, like I just couldn't spit it out. I just kept saying that over and yeah, they're a girl. And she responded back, my friend, and was just like, Oh, what's her name? What is she like? Just ask me, didn't say anything. She wasn't like, oh my god, ha ha. You know, it just isn't anything other than just Or like, what?
Speaker 02:What does this mean? Like what who are you? What is your identity? Like, tell me everything.
Speaker 01:None of that, or but also not even kind of making fun of me for rambling so much, which I would, you know. So, and then I as I learned that I liked you, and and especially once we knew that okay, not because I had actually liked girls before. That was the thing, is I had I had had sexual experiences with girls. That was one part of it. And a lot of the times it was like, yeah, I was attracted to them, but I didn't like them the same way that like I could have sexual experiences with boys, just because I was attracted to them, but I didn't have feelings for them, like deeper feelings. So, but then I feel like I have to rewind to tell a little bit about the first girl because that person I actually liked, you know? It was like a real feeling. And I don't know if it was just because I was living in the Philippines at the time, and gayness is a big part of the culture there, especially on the island where I was at least. And so it just again didn't feel like that big of a deal. And I had the same experience where I this girl, I had been friends with her for several months at this point, probably six months, super close. I was talking to another mutual friend. He said something about her going home with a girl the night before. I was like, a girl? And he's like, Yeah, she's bi. And I had this full body reaction that we're talking about where it's like, she is, and I just all of a sudden it was- You're like giddy. I giddy and saw her in this totally different light. Like all of a sudden, I was like, I'm in love with her. Okay. Should we make out now? Like, I don't, it was such a weird. I at the time I didn't even realize like in hindsight, I can see that now. It's so kind of cute and silly, but didn't realize that at the time and immediately felt attracted to her. And then we we kind of had, I mean, I call it dating. I don't know what else to call it, but you know, it wasn't anything serious, but we were hanging out a lot. We would go to parties together, we would hold hands, we would leave together, like it was coupley, cutesy, whatever. But um, I also didn't really want to date anyone at that time. Not seriously. I was having, I was in my single era, I was just enjoying it. And it was the same thing when I told my friends, I don't actually even think I told them. I literally think we just showed up at a party together holding hands, and everyone's like, cute. No one said anything. Amazing. Anything. They're like, oh, you guys are so cute. That's so unusual. So unusual. And I'm not blaming them by any means. Like, definitely that reaction is ideal. But I think when you don't have this outside pressure, at least for me, then I didn't have any internal pressure to figure it out either because I didn't have to answer to anyone. I feel like any of the pressure I felt the second go-a round of coming out, that was like my first time coming out. And the reason that I didn't say anything to my family, for instance, is because nothing came of this situationship. You know? Makes sense. I had so many people, guys, I should say, that I had little flings with that I didn't tell my parents about because you don't tell your parents every time you hook up with someone. Like that's that's more unusual. So I didn't come out in this bigger way online or anything, you know, because we never fully dated. And I just never thought anything about it. Same thing. I was like, maybe it was just her. I don't know. Like it's still, I just never questioned it. And then when I met you and I had those feelings, it's still it was obviously much stronger than the previous person that I'm talking about. And yeah, I just I didn't feel this pressure to kind of define it right away. But one of the reasons that I knew that I wanted to tell people is because at this point my life was very public online and I had always shared my life and my relationships, and it was like, I know we were about to go to Bali together, you know? Like, I know I'm gonna share you. And I don't want to hide, I didn't want you to feel hidden, you know. Like I just, it was like I don't, I didn't want anything like that. And so that was that was actually like one of the reasons why I came out the way that I did. But so I just ended up telling people, I'm like, yeah, I'm dating someone, I'm super happy. And they're like, Oh, who is he? And I'm like, oh, her name is Alix. That's literally how I would tell my friends. I didn't, I just downplayed it. I just downplayed it, and same reaction.
Speaker 02:Nobody, well, some people ended up being a little bit But initially, no one it was all it was all good.
Speaker 01:Yeah, I would say probably half of the people were very like, oh, that's amazing, that's super, you know. And then some people were like, What? Are you gay now? What does this mean? Yeah, and yeah, and when it came to my family, I felt that same kind of pressure to have to come out because I didn't want my family to find out for me posting online. No, that would be crazy, that would be you know if you have to do that for your own, you know, safety and you're not close to your family, that's yeah, but you you guys had a a better relationship than to like for them to find out online, yeah. And I think that that that part was it again, it was more in hindsight. I can see how that was kind of messed up of the way that it happened. Like, I don't have a cute story like you have. No, you know, and it was hard. And when I had my first podcast five years ago and I shared my coming out story, I'm like, it was great. And I'm sure that there's probably some people listening who listened to that episode and are like, I thought everything was fine. And this is the thing is that it's like I didn't lie uh intentionally. That was how I kind of wrote the story in my mind out of self-protection, I think. Because I didn't want to hurt my own feelings. Number one. Number two, when I started my old podcast, it was still 2020. That was the year I was coming out.
Speaker 02:We were in a hardcore honeymoon boat.
Speaker 01:That's what I was gonna say. Everything was just bouncing off. Like I was nothing could stop us.
Speaker 02:We were just so in love, so excited. Even if people told us, like, gross, you're in a relationship with a girl, we'd be like, ha ha. Like we wouldn't care at all. At all. Not everything bounced off of us.
Speaker 01:At all. Yeah. So it was just, it was also that where I was like in our delusion era of our love. And then I think the other part of it too was I knew that by kind of sharing my family's reaction that that doesn't make them look good, right? Because most people nowadays kind of judge if if a family doesn't accept their queer kid, no matter how old the kid is, you know, that can be judged. And it was like I wanted to protect them from that judgment. And actually, something that kind of shifted it for me, this is so random. But when we did our Shannon Beverage episode, and remember how we were talking about how she had shared how her mom had said the thing to her, like, Oh, are you gay now? And that's and not the best reaction. But now her mom is like the ultimate ally.
Speaker 02:Yeah, she's a cheerleader. She likes she's gonna be the mom to all the queers.
Speaker 01:All the queers. And it just kind of shows that it's like you can it maybe you didn't have the best reaction, but that also doesn't define you. And I shouldn't have to kind of like change my story to make other people feel like what they I don't, you know what I mean? I don't know the right way to say it.
Speaker 02:Yeah, what happened happened.
Speaker 01:It's actually just the reality of the situation, exactly, and it wasn't great, it wasn't great, and if it was um it was more, it was less of there was partially a lot of on my dad. My mom was didn't care. No, my mom has always just been super happy that I found love in a really healthy, loving, like is always genuine. She didn't have to get over it, she didn't have to work through stuff, she was just always stoked, just so happy. And my dad had a much harder time with it. I come from a religious background, I knew that was gonna be part of it. He was uncomfortable around us.
Speaker 02:And there was also like a pressure on you to define what you were, who you were, and ex like explain that to them in their in his timeline.
Speaker 01:Yeah. And that was more of what it was where uh we talked about this in another episode too. I don't remember which one when I said like normalize lying. If people oh it's a JoJo Siwa one. Whereas like if people don't want to explain their personal life yet, maybe it's because they're not ready. And people have a right to lie to protect their privacy. That's different than lying just for the sake of lying. It's like you are allowed to lie to figure it out. And that was something that it was like they got upset with me about for lying because they asked if we were dating, and we weren't, we weren't dating.
Speaker 02:They just we didn't, we didn't even, we hadn't even acknowledged to ourselves that we liked each other.
Speaker 01:They could just tell from the photos that there was chemistry there before we would even admit it to ourselves. And so that was really it, you know, it's just like I'm so disappointed in you for lying, and that's so messed up. And so it was just this kind of like double shame of coming out, and now you're also a liar and you're gay. Yeah. It was a lot, but it didn't feel like a lot at the time, if that's any consolation, because I was like, I'm so in love, I don't care. And it did just kind of bounce off. So so yeah, by the time I did finally tell them, it was just, hey, I sent it in a text and I just said, Hey, you're gonna see this anyways. Me and Alix are dating now. I just wanted you to know. So it was just, I I never I didn't say the words, I'm gay. Like you were saying you couldn't say those words. I didn't say those words because I didn't know if they were true. So it wasn't as much that I'm like, oh, I can't say that. I was just like, I don't know.
Speaker 02:Yeah, which is hard when you have like people around you pressuring you to like tell you your identity, when you for most people, it's not understanding your identity is not an instantaneous thing. It's a life journey process. And even when you're coming out, like that might that might take a year, it might take a couple years, like who knows? It might be you settle on something and then 10 years later it changes. Like exactly. And so it's hard when there's people around you putting pressure on you to really figure out who you are, what you are, because they're try they're trying to get comfortable with it. Yeah, they want to know what you are because then that helps them to put you in a box you in a box in a box, and then they can try to wrap their minds around it. And it's hard for people to sit in that uncomfortable place of not knowing or fluidity around it.
Speaker 01:Yeah. And all I knew was that I loved you and I wanted to be with you. So that's kind of how I came out is like I'm dating someone, her name is Alix. Yeah, and that was it because I didn't know what that made me other than in love with you, you know? That's so cute. Okay, so this is kind of the same. Am I gay or do I just admire women? We've kind of already talked about that. How do I know if I'm straight or bicurious? I mean, straight people don't want to hook up with the same sex, they don't even want to kiss them.
Speaker 02:I mean, yeah, it's also just the same things that we've talked about. You're not getting those full body reactions.
Speaker 01:Yeah. If I like kissing girls, but I still like boys, what am I? Well, you're a bycon. Yeah, you're queer. You're queer in some way.
Speaker 02:Yeah, I think there's like I think we talked about outside people putting pressure on you, but sometimes no one puts more pressure on you than yourself. Yeah. And so when you're in that process of like, you know, for me, I definitely felt that as like, oh wait, wow, like I'm in love with this person. What does this mean? Like it that like feeling of having to decide who you are, what you are, and then what does that mean for the rest of your life? It feels like insurmountable pressure at times. And so I think it's like the same way we at we would ask like people to not put pressure on on you for figuring out who you are. It's like try to relieve some of that internally because it's like, yeah, it you don't need to know exactly who you are or what you are. It's it's gonna take time to figure out, but you're probably a little queer.
Speaker 01:And I do, I understand wanting to have a name for for it. I do. Part of it is just an ease of explanation. Yeah. I tell you that all the time when I'm like, yeah, sometimes it could just be easier to say, I'm in a lesbian, like if I'm like, oh, I'm in a lesbian relationship, but I'm not a lesbian because I, you know, it's like you feel like you have to give your whole life story instead of just a single word. That's so much easier. So I understand wanting that, you know, sometimes it is for your own mind to wrap around, to kind of put yourself in that box for yourself to understand, but in some ways it also really just doesn't matter. As long as you feel confident in who you are and happy and recognize that that love is real and normal, and you know, it's like that's all that really matters. Yeah. If I come out as gay, will my life be harder?
Speaker 02:I think it depends in the way that you interpret the harder.
Speaker 01:Well, I think it really depends for every person, depending on where you live, your culture, your family.
Speaker 02:Religion, you could let's say you are gay, but you say straight and you have a straight relationship, you get married to someone you're not attracted to, you have a family, you have this whole life. It's like maybe your life is easier in some ways, potentially, but that sounds really hard to me to like deny who you are, to deny and not be maybe ever in love with somebody or to be fulfilled in that way. That sounds really hard to me compared to the heart I've faced. But that doesn't but you know, I have a lot of privilege in saying that because not everyone can be out and open and like have as easy of a life as maybe I have.
Speaker 01:Yeah, yeah, that's definitely a good point of there's always there's always a heart on either side of the city. Choose your heart. Choose your heart. And and also, you know, it is it is going to be different. That's the thing, is like it is going to be different than living a straight life where something like politics are now impacting your rights to have a family, to get married, to, you know, for the most part, other than I guess like women, women's rights are also being voted on, but for the most part, it's like straight people, your rights it aren't necessarily always up for debate in that same way. So it's like it is going to be different. There are going to be challenges because you won't have, we're talking about privilege, the same privilege anymore. You can't travel every where you want to go at any time. You you might be treated differently depending on how you end up presenting yourself or out in public with whoever you're with. You know, like it it can be different. Um, and some of that different is harder. But I also like the kind of like reframe that you have because that's also very true.
Speaker 02:Yeah, I think it's like with almost anything. It's like you have to choose the hard that you want. It's like this is like a total, totally tangential thing, but it's like maybe you really want to be an entrepreneur, and that means like leaving behind your cushy corporate job. It's like, well, there's still hard things about being in corporate, but you're choose the hard that you want for your life because also being an entrepreneur is hard. It's gonna be way different. You won't have a reliable paycheck, you're gonna have all these different things that come into play. But it's like it's about pursuing like really authentically what you want in your life, and that's gonna come with a different set of hard things that you have to face.
Speaker 01:Yeah. Yeah. If I'm gay, can I still be successful? Yes. Absolutely. Do we look like a bunch of deadbeats to you? No. I answer is no. I'm on a mission to bring power lesbians back.
Speaker 02:Oh my goodness. Side note when Kayla had surgery recently, uh, if you followed along for her upper bluff situation, uh I had the privilege of driving her home post-surger and she was all hopped up on medications.
Speaker 01:Because I had to be awake for the surgery. And because my mind is so strong, they gave me a double dose of anesthesia because I wouldn't go under. This is oral anesthesia and pain meds and anxiety meds, all three. I was like, nope, I'm still here. I I feel everything. I couldn't go under because we're so anxious. I was so anxious. And then by the time it was over and I was in the car, I could relax. And then all the drugs kicked in because it was like, oh, I'm safe. And I just I blacked out. I don't remember driving home.
Speaker 02:Oh my gosh. She went on the biggest rant about how there's not enough power lesbians in the world and we gotta bring power lesbians back. And just like that was the only thing that mattered in this world at this time was we need more power lesbians. And so we're here to tell you that yes, you can be successful if you're queer in all forms. You know, obviously it may look different depending on where you live in the world, but like, you know, most places in the states, you you can absolutely be successful.
Speaker 01:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it is so good to see all of that represented more in the media, you know, instead of just the hardship all the time. Okay. The last one. Can gay people still travel?
Speaker 02:Oh, we know you have opinions on this one. I mean, yes, of course. We've been in Nicaragua. We've been, I don't even know how many countries we've visited together. But we've we've a lot, you know, we've been to Europe, we've been to Asia, we've been to Africa, we've been to Central America, South America, all over the US. We've been all over the world together.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And um, it doesn't mean that travel always looks the same. Right. But you can absolutely travel.
Speaker 01:Yeah. And it is, of course, this is what we're talking about. Like it will be different. That was one of the things that I was the most worried about with coming out, or not even worried, but just that maybe maybe I almost had to grieve a little bit. Because I was living out of a backpack at the time. I lived in Asia and Africa. Many of the places where I was also working, I had a nonprofit at the time. So I'm in very remote off-the-grid places in Asia and Africa. And Africa more specifically, you know, was known for having some pretty intense anti-gay laws. And I knew like, well, I'm not gonna be able to work there anymore. Because a lot of the my partners and things who I was working with, they followed me online. So I wasn't gonna necessarily feel safe. And that was a big thing for me to grieve. But I was also like, I don't care. I'm so in love. I don't care. I'll do anything. I don't care. And yeah, we make it work. It's also it's something I think both of us feel really strongly about. This is I love sharing about our travels online to show queers, no matter the age, young or old, that you can still travel. Like your life isn't over and you don't only have to go to gay resorts. If you want to do that, cool. But it's like that's not the only option. You still can definitely can do so much.
Speaker 02:Yeah, and it might look different depending on where we go. In some places, right? We don't we don't do PDA.
Speaker 01:Yeah.
Speaker 02:It's just not a thing.
Speaker 01:But but I also don't do PDA with I didn't do PDA with my boyfriends in some places. In certain places for sure. Because maybe it's super religious.
Speaker 02:You need to be more covered up. It's just inappropriate, right? And in general, like if it's inappropriate to be kissing in the same or in a hetero relationship, it's gonna be inappropriate to kiss in the same sex. So yeah, so in some places we don't do PDA when we're in Paris, we're like we're making out. We're making out at the cafes, it's all it's awesome. So I think it's just being really mindful and respectful of the local culture. Um, but also like as somebody who looks gay, yeah, I haven't had any issues. Um, and you know, I would it's really funny because in some places I'm I fully am, they think I'm a man.
unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 01:Like in Nicaragua, we get straight privilege.
Speaker 02:Yeah. In Nicaragua, I'm I'm senior everywhere I go. I'm taller than all the men there. Like I just they just see me as a man. Yeah. And it was so interesting when we were in Africa and we went on safari, everyone knew I was a woman. Yeah. And I was like, wow, okay, this is so interesting. So it's um, yeah, usually the hardest part I have is the bathroom situation when we I've talked about this already on the podcast, but when I go to different countries, like sometimes people think I'm a guy, sometimes people think I'm a girl, and I have to navigate that. And like nor people have been cool about it, but uh we've been super fortunate in our travels to be respected. Yeah.
Speaker 01:Um yeah. And I mean, yeah, it's like look into it of wherever you're going. But for the most part, what I've seen, it's like how they treat a tourist is gonna be very different than how they might treat their own people, you know. It's like they're like, oh yeah, tourists are weird, they do gay shit, but if it was their their son or their daughter, it would it might be very different. Yeah, but it you know, there is again the privilege and different different kind of unspoken rules almost apply.
Speaker 02:Yeah, but that's very true.
Speaker 01:You can travel, please travel when you're gay, please. I just think it's so important. It's so important. So do you think we helped? Do you think we helped any coming out confus confusion? I hope so. I think, like I said, if you're Googling, the answer is probably yes.
Speaker 02:Yeah, if you're Googling, it's probably yes, and it's probably a sign that there's a deeper part of you that wants to explore and that there's some fears that may be preventing you from doing that. And so maybe just like try to connect with that part of you that's you know, like has a need or a desire and try and understand that what that might be and and maybe allowing yourself to explore it.
Speaker 01:And I know a lot of people have talked about something that helped them come out was to watch other people's coming out stories on YouTube and or listening to podcasts, because even just between the two of ours, totally different experiences, right? And even like you were in the shame spiral for a year having panic attacks, and I'm like, oh yeah, I guess I'm gay. I'm making out with girls. You know, it's just like totally different experiences. And so listening to different people's coming out stories can kind of maybe help you know how to navigate your own or give you ideas. You'll feel that that resonance when it happens. It's like, oh, yeah, that worked. I'm gonna try that.
Speaker 02:So I one of the things that helped me the most was when I was in my gay panic era, and my friend had found out because she caught me in the my first love. Was she was like, let's she was straight and she was like, let's go to a gay bar, like let's like let's have you explore this, you know? And so, um, and that gave me uh more confidence to like start to explore. And so she really came with me to my first ever lesbian night out party.
Speaker 01:That's why you're an advocate for the straights in gay bars, yeah. Although it does feel different having a girl than a guy, yeah.
Speaker 02:And she came with me and she was like such a good friend and like helped me meet people and make friends that night, and it really started me down that journey. So, like I don't know, sometimes having a friend to encourage you and like to come with you just to give you that additional confidence and see what it is, and it could just be a fun thing.
Speaker 01:And I would just say coming out to the to whoever feels like the safest person first, the same way, like you said, I came out to my safe friend. It was like come out to the person that you think you're almost a hundred percent positive will have that best reaction to help you and support you through the ones that might be more challenging instead of going for the hardest person first, like, oh, I just gotta get this off my chest. It's like, no, find support first. And obviously, therapy can be hugely helpful, like it was for you. Yeah. All right, honey, I see your who's the problem. And this is so messed up that this is even on here. I would love to know how you're going to defend yourself other than You're not supposed to see my who's the problem. Other than just not remembering. Tell the people, tell the people what you did.
Speaker 02:Okay. I don't know when this was, maybe a year and a half ago. I don't know.
Speaker 01:Whenever it came out.
Speaker 02:But I don't know if you've ever had this situation where, you know, we have a list of shows that we want to watch and we want to watch together. And in general, we have we have a it's actually spoken rule where if we're watching a show together, then and we're apart, we can't watch the show.
Speaker 01:Unless we agree.
Speaker 02:Unless we make an agreement and we'll say, hey, you can watch one episode apart or two, whatever. But in general, we want to watch the show together. And sometimes what happens is we have this a bunch of TV shows that are like on our list that we want to watch next, you know, the like my list on Amazon and Netflix, whatever, all the things. Okay. And so about a year and a half ago, I went on a trip and there was a show that was on our list that we wanted to watch together, and I chose to watch it when we were show. I watched the whole show when I was away from you.
Speaker 01:The whole show. But but I also had said before you left, first of all, I put the show on the list and I said, Oh my god, I can't wait to watch this show with you. It's gonna be so good.
Speaker 02:So the show was Griselda, and this is and it was good when I watched it without you. I still haven't seen it. And I want to know if I'm the problem because I chose to watch it without you, even though it was on our shared list.
Speaker 01:Even though I asked you not to, you're leaving out a key piece.
Speaker 02:This is I didn't remember you saying that. I just thought it was one of the many shows that are on our list, which is like, who knows when we're gonna watch these things, but it's like something we're interested in watching. I didn't remember that you had said, like, I want to watch this with you.
Speaker 01:And when I'm in the wrong, even worse, or are you or should I be allowed to watch the show without you? What had made it even worse is I was at home and thinking, I wish I could watch this show right now, but I'm not gonna watch it because we agreed to watch it.
Speaker 02:And then you see it, someone's watched it halfway through.
Speaker 01:That's what had happened is that when you came back, I was like, okay, let's watch. And I was like, why does it show that it's already been watched? And you're like, what do you mean? Classic response from Alix, what do you mean? And I'm like, what do you mean? I watched it. I watched it without you.
Speaker 02:So am I the problem? Yes. You're the or is it that you're the problem?
Speaker 01:That is a weak, weak argument. Okay, so mine is also about us. As we've established, I am what is known as the cleaning fairy in this household. Okay. And I am okay with the fact that I like things to be more cleanly, so I clean more. I have more flexibility in my job, I have more time to clean. Fine. Okay. But I can clean the entire kitchen, like scrub. I'm everything is scrubbed clean. But I leave one of my dishes in the sink. You come and cook your whole meal, whatever you're making. My dish is in the sink because I had to like run out for a call, whatever, whatever is happening. You know where this is going. You cook your meal after I've thoroughly cleaned the kitchen. My singular bowl is in the sink. You clean everything that you made, which is a great start. But then my single bowl in there, I'll come back and be like, why didn't you put my bowl in the dishwasher? And you're like, that's yours. We've been married for five years. I'm like, there is no yours. I do do that sometimes, and I know that I'm the problem if I'm supposed to.
Speaker 02:It's so messed up. I don't know why I do that. And I'm just like in my brain, it's like it's not mine. I don't have to do it. It's not my responsibility.
Speaker 00:Yeah. But I know I'm the problem. Okay, fair enough. As long as maybe I'm really the problem this week.
Speaker 01:This week. Okay, we love you guys. We'll see you next week. We'll see you next week. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the show. We're so happy to have you here. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you're listening to podcasts. We love getting commentary from you on Spotify and on YouTube. And as always, if you love this episode or any of our episodes, make sure to share it with a friend or somebody who will appreciate the conversation.
Speaker 02:And make sure to follow us on all their socials at WivesNot Sisterspod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Thanks, guys. See you next week.