Wives Not Sisters

How Problematic is The L Word?!

• Kayla Nielsen and Alix Tucker • Season 1 • Episode 12

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In this queer culture deep-dive, Alix and Kayla revisit The L Word — the iconic show that shaped lesbian visibility for an entire generation. From nostalgic favorites to problematic storylines, they unpack what the series got right (and wrong) about queer representation, trans inclusion, family, and chosen community. If you’ve ever debated who you’d be on The L Word, this one’s for you.

00:08 – Intro + Spotify love from listeners
01:13 – Would You Rather: The L Word edition
05:30 – Why The L Word still matters
07:04 – Queer representation on TV then vs. now
11:08 – Gay marriage and adoption rights in 2004
16:34 – Family acceptance, healthcare, and “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”
22:21 – How The L Word handled trans identity (Max’s storyline)
33:18 – Casting, representation, and the male gaze
41:01 – Chosen family and queer community
46:02 – The Planet: where queer culture thrived
50:26 – Why lesbian spaces are disappearing
52:10 – Why watching The L Word is still a queer rite of passage
55:18 – Who’s the Problem? (Underwear + queer community incest)

#TheLWord #QueerPodcast #LesbianCulture #LGBTQHistory #WivesNotSisters #QueerRepresentation #ChosenFamily #QueerMedia

Connect with us on social media: IG: @wivesnotsisterspod | TikTok: @wivesnotsisterspod | Youtube: @wivesnotsisterspod

Follow our hosts on Instagram: @kaylalanielsen @alix_tucker

You can also watch our episodes on Youtube at youtube.com/@wivesnotsisterspod!

Speaker 1:

Hey guys, it's Alix and Kayla. And we're married, not related, definitely codependent, but in a cute way. And we're back.

Speaker 2:

We are so excited that you're here. We are back.

Speaker 1:

We've got another queer culture episode for you guys today, which is exciting.

Speaker 2:

But before we dive in, you know that I have to say thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you to everyone who's commenting on Spotify. The other day, Alex was on her phone. I was like, what are you doing? Get off your phone. And you're like, I'm looking at our Spotify comment.

Speaker 1:

I actually read all of them. They were so nice.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so please keep doing that. It's super fun for us. And also, if you love this episode, if you want to try to convince somebody to watch L word who's been protesting it, send this to them. Maybe this will convince them. Or just leave us a review and tell us how wonderfully amazing we are.

Speaker 1:

If you're queer and you haven't watched L word yet, I mean, what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing with all your free time? Tell me.

Speaker 2:

But before we get into L word, it's my turn to lead. And I'm scared.

Speaker 1:

I always get nervous. Well, we're gonna be doing a would you rather L word edition.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

Which is gonna be really fun.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, our dog is squeaking her lammy in the background. Hopefully you can't hear that.

Speaker 1:

Umpire laughing. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so would you rather dress like Alice or have Shane's haircuts? Oh my god. That is so hard. They're both pretty equally bad.

Speaker 2:

And by the way, we're talking about OG Lward. We're not talking about Generation Q. No, no, no.

Speaker 1:

We're talking like O4 Lward.

Speaker 2:

Oh my God. Is am I Shane or like is it the haircut on me as Kayla? Yes. Okay.

Speaker 1:

That's even then the outfits. You're gonna go to the house in fashion.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Jenny used to just like rag on her hardcore because her fashion was so Imagine.

Speaker 2:

I mean, Shane's haircuts were bad on her and she's essentially a model. Imagine that haircut on me.

Speaker 1:

No, so bad. So bad. Okay. Would you rather marry Alice or marry Tasha? Oh that's hard. Both two of our favorites on the show.

Speaker 2:

Does Alice not want kids though?

Speaker 1:

Well, it's interesting because in the OG L word, she said that she did want kids. Yeah. But then in Generation Q, she doesn't have any kids.

Speaker 2:

And she seems kind of like the light around them. So that would be a deal breaker for me if they didn't want kids. Yeah, I think I think Tasha. Like Alice would be such a fun friend. And I would choose her over Shane, as we've talked about, I think before in another Your Turn to Lead game. But Tasha is Chef's Kiss.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, she's amazing. Okay. Would you rather have come out in 2004, which is when the show launched, or come out in 2025 now?

Speaker 2:

Would we still be together just like I was in the closet the whole time? If we were could still be together, then well, I guess no, I would rather come out in 2024 or 2004. Cause then I would have been able to date other girls before meeting you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. I guess it's like, would you rather be like age 22 in 2004 and 2025? Like all the rights and everything have changed so much. I think that's really what I meant by it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Um, I mean, obviously coming out later, right now, we have a lot more rights, but it's more of just like the experience. If I was in LA in that kind of bubble that they were in, even though they were still facing adversity, yeah, I don't know. I would have rather had that experience. Me too. Me too.

Speaker 1:

Okay, would you rather hang out at the planet or hang out at Hit Nightclub? The planet.

Speaker 2:

That's not even a question. I agree with you. I mean, if this was 2004, then it would have been the nightclub. But if we're talking about grandma Kayla, we want to be at the planet. I want to try the food.

Speaker 1:

Would you rather be Jenny in the sense that you have a career as a writer and a director, or be Alice, a talk show host?

Speaker 2:

Oh. Don't make me say I want to be Jenny. I'm just doing this to get recorded, just to be like, haha, you're the Jenny. Exactly. So, no. No. I'm gonna choose Alice.

Speaker 1:

But I know that's not your root. Whatever. It's not your truth. Okay. And my last one for you is would you rather be Helena and always wondering if people only love you because of your money, or be Shane and not be able to be in a long-term healthy relationship?

Speaker 2:

Helena. Because it's like if I if I knew like Helena is a good person. And I would just work on that of like knowing and trusting that I am a good enough person, people won't only love me because of my money. Yeah. But that would suck to never be in a relationship.

Speaker 1:

Also, you can meet someone who's also really rich potentially. That too. And not me.

Speaker 2:

And you could also just stop trying to pay for everyone's affection. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, those were good, right? Those were good. Great. A little taste tester before we dive in.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So we said that today's queer culture episode, we're talking about Elward. OG Elward. First of all, I just have to say we've only done a couple queer culture episodes, right? Yeah. But they're really fun.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I really like them. And really? Because last time you were stressing out about the buy girls versus lesbians. Yeah, I was stressed.

Speaker 1:

I just was like, I was worried about how the people would react. But I think you guys are going to be amazing. So I'm over it. And short-term memory. Exactly. I'm over it. And Elward is so iconic. Yeah. Which is part of why we're talking about it. But, you know, this show launched in 2004, which is a really interesting time in the country, which we're going to get into later. But it was the first mainstream TV show to ever focus on a group of lesbian and bisexual women, which it was it's a big cultural moment for us. We got a mainstream TV on Showtime.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. That's what I was going to say. Mainstream and a major network. Major network on production value, too. You know, this wasn't like a lifetime movie or something.

Speaker 1:

And we got six seasons of it. So not enough. We got a big investment in this show.

Speaker 2:

Not enough.

Speaker 1:

And it was it was it was big at the time, for sure. But I would say, you know, it's for me, we we've had like a few kind of mainstream, like big network shows uh for for the queers, but for but this is the one for the lesbians, yeah, for the by girls, it's for the queer girls out there. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And so I'm really because other than offshoots of L word, like the real L word and Generation Q, have there been other all lesbian shows? No, not that I know of.

Speaker 1:

There's been more like queer shows, or there's been like gay guy shows, like there was the one in SF on HBO, like the look, the look, the looker, the lookout. I don't know what you're talking about. Um, it was about a group of guys in SF.

Speaker 2:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

That was on HBO.

Speaker 2:

We tried to watch it, but I couldn't get it.

Speaker 1:

It's really good. You said it was good. But there's something about the girly the way that this satisfies the soul because it really taps into lesbian culture in a way that I really identify with, partly because I was coming out when the show was airing. And so just like I really connect to that era.

Speaker 2:

But even if you weren't, it's like because I wasn't, and it feels like one of those comfort shows, like everyone has comfort shows. People are talking about Gilmore girls in the fall. They're talking about friends and all of these, you know, just like iconic staple shows. That's what L word is to me. I put it on and it's a hub.

Speaker 1:

It's like the lesbian show, like that friends was for the straights.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And so we want to talk about this because obviously it has it had a huge impact on us and the whole queer community, but also we want to contrast where we were then and where we are now. Because a lot's changed in the last 20 years since the show aired. And it's so interesting because a lot of people today, a lot of queers today, say that they won't watch it because it's offensive or problematic in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2:

Even because we had asked Lex, our producer, if she'd seen it yet. And she's like, Oh, should I watch it though? Like, I've heard it's, I forget the word she used, but I think she said problematic. She's like, I've heard it's like there's it's kind of offensive or something. And we're like, okay, there are definitely things in there that are wrong, right? The same way that when you watch back anything from that era, you'll be like, I can't believe we thought that was okay to say, let alone where or do anything. Any of it. It's like, but that's how that's how media works, where it like is this little time capsule that shows you what was acceptable at that point of time. And it's like watching it isn't condoning that behavior. No. If anything, it you're able to see the contrast even more clearly of like, whoa, things have changed a lot.

Speaker 1:

Cause that was my biggest takeaway in rewatching it, is so much has changed in the last 20 years in a way that I could never have predicted. So much happened, like honestly, in a span of like three to five years for the queers. Like when I came out in 2009, we'll get into all this. It's like there was no gay marriage. And then you fast forward a couple years later, and it's like now there's gay marriage, and all of these right, these rights have advanced, and it's kind of amazing. So when you look back 20 years, the things that they cared about and focused on is totally different than what we're talking about now in the queer community.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I obviously came out later, so I can't relate in that same way, but I do know what it's like to just when you're inside of an experience, sometimes it's hard to see it changing from inside. You need that kind of like step away to be like, oh shit, yeah. Actually, you know, whether it's even with like your own physical appearance or something, like you, it these slow, gradual changes happen, and then you see a picture from five years ago, you're like, wait, I did look totally different. But when it's happening slowly, you can't cut as much. But that's a separate conversation, honey.

Speaker 1:

I know it's crazy. Anyways, so that's what we're gonna talk talk about today. And really excited about it.

Speaker 2:

I would also just say we are obviously fans of the show.

Speaker 1:

Oh my god.

Speaker 2:

So we are here to convince you to watch it.

Speaker 1:

I mean, there's so much to love about it. The characters, they're all so lovable and so diverse, and and um, and the storylines are hilarious, the friendships are just amazing, and I don't know, there's so much nostalgia around this show that I just nostalgia that I just love.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so let's talk about what was happening back then versus now in terms of queer rights, essentially. So the first thing was is that in terms of gay marriage, back in 2004, states were just starting to legalize gay marriage. It was like, I think Massachusetts was the first one in 2004 to legalize gay marriage, and there was this kind of like this nine to ten year horizon from 2004 to 2013 where state by state were slowly starting to pass legislation to make that, you know, an it, you know, a state right, if you will. But marriage didn't become federally legal until June of 2015 during the Obama administration when the Supreme Court over overturned it and and uh and gave us and gave us marriage, which was a huge day. So that was a big change. Yeah. And so that was a big theme on the show is that like because we didn't have marriage, there was all these other rights that we also didn't have access to. And so, like, for example, parenting. Yeah, so different then. Yeah, you couldn't you couldn't uh have same-sex adoption in most states when the show came out. I think it was really the final state which overturned and allowed same-sex adoption was Mississippi. That didn't happen until 2016. Yeah. So that whole kind of like early 2000 to 2010, it was that same thing. States were starting to like allow same-sex adoption, which I didn't even realize.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I definitely didn't realize because essentially I felt like none of these things affected me, you know, because they didn't. In my mind, I was straight. So I wasn't paying attention as closely. I was also younger. So I think that that was part of it too. And I didn't live in the country anymore either. So I was paying even less attention to politics and rights and all of that stuff. Um, but yeah, it's a I mean, that's obviously privilege of being able to ignore rights that don't impact you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And we see it a lot through like Bet and Tina's storyline because first they uh like they have a baby using donor sperm, and they have to go through Bet has to go through the second parent adoption process, which by the way, we still have to go through today. Yeah. Even though today um we have parental rights for non-biological parents in same-sex marriages. So, for example, like when we have a child, or if you carried a baby and had a child for us, I have the same rights, but I still, just to like be safe, have to go through second parent adoption. Back then, it was even more critical because Bet and Tina, they didn't have the same rights back then.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's it's by the way, it's not just if I carry it, even with the surrogate carrying because it's they're my eggs, so I have a biological connection to them. Yeah, and I don't. Which I pointed out to you, and you're like, no, that's not true. And I was like, I think we should check because it's true.

Speaker 1:

It today in today's laws, yeah, I'm still I'm still a parent. Yeah. And I will be on the birth certificate. But a birth certificate isn't a legal document, correct. And so you still want to go through a second parent adoption to like cover all your bases. But back Especially when you're leaving the country and you know, yeah, but back then, second parent adoptions were extremely cost costly, very painful, and not all states allowed second parent adoptions. They lived in California, so they could go through with it. But you really see that come up. And then when they tried to adopt a baby, they realized that if the birth mom has the baby in Nevada where she lives, they don't they didn't allow same-sex adoption. So they had to like think about how do we get her to come to California to have the baby. It's just a whole different situation from a parenting standpoint.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and also the scene when they're in the hospital because the little girl, once they do have a little girl, you know, she was sick or something, and they're at the front trying to check in and they're like, Who's the mother? We both are. And the lady at the front's like, Well, I the the system will only let me put one person in, like, only one. We don't literally allow two mothers. The system doesn't even have space for that.

Speaker 1:

So that's And she's like, figure it out. We had the baby here, like, get your act.

Speaker 2:

But imagine your kid is going to the hospital and they're like, sorry, only one of you can be a mom today. Crazy. You know, and that's 20 years, that's not that long ago.

Speaker 1:

It's not that long ago. It's kind of amazing when you like think about everything that's changed. And like in touching on all the healthcare, it's like, first of all, there was we also didn't have visitation rights for our partners because we we weren't married. So we couldn't, for example, it's like if you were my partner, not only could you not be on my company's insurance plan, but also if you got sick or something, I wouldn't have visitation rights in the hospital.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Which was so sad, which you see on the show as well. Like when Dana's going through her cancer treatments, yeah, and they have to like convince her parents to let her partner have visitation rights.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah. Because, and I mean, I know we'll talk about this too. This is something it's not to do with rights necessarily, but something that is still consistent in our community, which is that acceptance from family. And it's like Dana's parents struggled with accepting her gayness. They were more conservative. I think she was she a conservative politician or something, her mom.

Speaker 1:

Her mom, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So she was, you know, very conservative and very, what, my perfect beautiful angel daughter cannot be gay and image focused and everything. And when she got cancer, when Dana, the daughter, got cancer, then the mom didn't want Dana's partner to be there. And they literally had to be like, she's literally dying, you know, and you're not gonna let the person that she's sharing her life with hold her fucking hand while she's dying because of image. And it's like that idea of unaccepting family is obviously still relevant. But what's not relevant is if your family, your blood, tells the doctor, yeah, that person is not on visitation, they're not family, that overrides your relationship. And that part can't happen today, which is thank god great.

Speaker 1:

Thank God. And we had no federal protections in terms of employment, housing, or healthcare, which basically means you could legally be fired, you could be denied housing for being gay in most states at that time, which is mind-blowing. Yeah. Which is why, like, now when I really think back to it, and when I was coming out, it was like, no wonder I was so scared to come out at work as well. Like, I remember that was a big deal when I first told my when I first told a coworker that I was gay. That was a big deal. I worked for a very conservative, large corporation, and it wasn't it wasn't okay essentially to be out. You could be fired for being gay or for being trans, for example.

Speaker 2:

Well, not only that, but you didn't cut your hair short how it is now until 20, it was 2021, right? Yeah. Yeah. And even up until that point, even though, yes, they cannot fire you and all of these things, but one of the main reasons you hadn't cut it before is because you do work corporate in these pretty conservative, hyper masculine finance roles. And you're like, yeah, I will be treated differently, though.

Speaker 1:

For sure.

Speaker 2:

You know, it's like I will be treated differently if this happens. And it is so subtle that you can't really do anything about it. But it's like that's gonna change potentially the trajectory of your career.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

By getting a fucking haircut.

Speaker 1:

It's crazy.

Speaker 2:

And that was in 2021. But imagine before when, yeah, they could literally fire you for your quote unquote lifestyle.

Speaker 1:

Your lifestyle, yeah, exactly. And that obviously applied to the military, right? So the famous don't ask, don't tell policy that happened under the Bush administration.

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm. Um, which we see in the show.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, exactly. And we have there's so many queer and trans people who serve in the military, and it's like if people are willing to put their lives at stake to serve this country, but they're not allowed to be in the military, I don't even understand how that was possible.

Speaker 2:

Literally, I don't understand why you're not rejoicing at every ounce of help that you get. The fact that anybody is willing to do this is incredible, and that you wouldn't just be like, thank you, instead, you're like, oh, gross, you know, and it's like we see that in the show, which is it felt even though we lived through this experience, so it's like a younger person than us, especially Gen Z or even like a younger millennial, might not remember that as much. But even living through it and knowing it and remembering it, it still felt strange to watch these kinds of things play out on your screen that were just so normalized. Where Tasha, the one that I picked in Would You Rather, you know, who is a queen in every way, literally gets kicked out of the military for being gay for homosexual of homosexual conduct.

Speaker 1:

They couldn't even prove it.

Speaker 2:

They couldn't even prove it, but that's she had to go to a whole trial within the military and everything. And it's like, how you're watching this as if it is a Black Mirror episode, you know? You're like, what? This is and again, 20 years ago. That's not that long ago. We're not talking about the civil rights era. Yeah, it's not that long ago for the first time.

Speaker 1:

Donutel got repealed in 2011, so only 14 years ago. Like, I would say so much has changed even in the last like 10 to 15 years. Like it's pretty wild.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, 10, especially.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the last 10, like ever since the marriage act was, you know, was created, it so much has happened, so much advancement has happened, which is for me, it's what gives me hope for the future, is that so much can continue to progress in the next five, 10 years. Like you, when you really look back on things, like we are moving out of quick speed.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And this is again why I think yes, the show is imperfect in the way that especially I would say the the biggest thing is the trans issue, which we're obviously gonna talk about. That is, I would say, like the biggest in not political correct, like imperfection of the show. Yeah. And downright offensive part of the show. Sure. Absolutely. So it's like if you're a trans person and you're like, yeah, that's too hard for me to watch, I get it. But when you're talking about everything in the queer movement and in queer rights, it really shows you, like you said, like how far we've come, especially when you're inside of it, and even more so in the last five years, when things have felt so politically and emotionally charged that it it feels stressful sometimes and scary every time you're logging on to Instagram and you're seeing these headlines or just on your phone at all on Google, you're seeing these headlines about LGBTQ rights being threatened in all of these ways. It it feels scary, you know, and it can feel really stressful. And so there is, I don't know, this like solace that happens from seeing how far we've come.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And knowing, okay, wait, actually, maybe we aren't moving backward. Because sometimes it does start feeling like that.

Speaker 1:

Like we're moving back when you feel like you're under attack when you feel like your rights are under attack. But when you really look at it, it's like we have progressed so much. And I think that we'll only continue to advance our rights at the end of the day. And so, so, but I think your point on the trans, you know, topic is really relevant. It's one of the main reasons why people today hate on the show because of the way that Max was treated specifically on the show, which I think is a hundred percent fair. Yeah, it was really messed up. I think, you know, just overall, he was intentionally misgendered throughout the entire time he was on the show.

Speaker 2:

And in a really mean way. Yes, you know, like it was in like a humiliating way. Exactly. Yeah, humiliating is the perfect word, where it was just kind of like trying to get the reaction from him in a very schoolyard, cruel kind of teasing way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, he was mocked for tran for even wanting to transition. He was told to stay a butch lesbian. Yeah. And I thought you made a really good point about like when he started taking testosterone, how he was really demonized for his aggression while he was on testosterone when he started taking it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah. It seemed like they were trying to paint him as like, oh, don't, you know, watch out. All the queer girls, don't date a trans guy, even if you like them, because they're gonna turn into this raging abusive psychopath. And then they kind of like tapered that that storyline out.

Speaker 1:

So I don't know, I don't really know because basically what happened was Max decided he wanted to transition. He had at the time, there really weren't doctors who were helping people with that, you know, to do that safely. And and so he, from a friend like Black Market, got testosterone, didn't know the levels, was taking like five times as much as you should have been taking. And it was causing obviously very severe reactions, you know, causing aggression, causing mood swings, cause I mean, these are hormones we're talking about. Like hormones affect everything about your personality.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And then, like, once he realized what was happening, got connected with a doctor, and they sort they were like he was in a kind of like a trans support group, and they're like, oh my God, like how do you have any friends left if you're taking that testosterone? And so they hooked him up with the doctor and like sorted it all out. But they but the show like was demonizing him at that time.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, to make it seem like he was, you know, like, oh, it's so scary if you're dating somebody who's trans. Like, don't, and so this is the big question that I have that I'm not really clear on because I think the first time I watched the show, it was probably 2015 or like 2013 or so. So it wasn't in real time. But and so I'm not, and I don't remember also my exact reactions when I first watched it, other than like, this is my new favorite show. I'm definitely not gay though. I just love this show about lesbians. But I didn't know, it wasn't clear watching it now. Like, do we have this response about the transness of it all and how poorly it was executed and portrayed because of what we now know and because of trans rights now? Or were they frame, were they purposely trying to be mean to be like, oh, see, poor Max? Because he is literally like the sweetest person ever.

Speaker 1:

He's such a great character. He's so kind.

Speaker 2:

He's so sweet. I think it was the least.

Speaker 1:

He has the strongest morals of anyone on the show.

Speaker 2:

Anyone, seriously. It's so sweet. They even say it was one of the last episodes of the show. Like he said something kind of snarky about Jenny, and they're like, I think that's the meanest thing I've ever heard you say. You know, and it wasn't even that bad. Right. But it just goes to show that like he was so lovable and so nice. So I'm like, were they painting him as the villain trans person or like the butt of the jokes? Or what like, were we supposed to sympathize with him back then? That's what I don't know.

Speaker 1:

It's hard to say. I don't really know. The other thing that I wondered was, you know, he really struggles to integrate with the group, even though they're his friends, but they all kind of make fun of him and they're not that nice to him, and they don't really include him, and they kind of humiliate him in a lot of ways, and it's really sad. And at first I was wondering, like, what was it more of a class thing? Because Max came from like a small town, I think, in Indiana. Yeah. And was like more of like a a rural, you know, rural kid with, you know, more from poverty. It started that way where it was a class thing. Yeah, and I feel like it kind of started that way, but then it I don't really know what the show was trying to do with his character, but they did not handle it well, to the point in which in Generation Q that he makes a comeback and Shane apologizes to him, which I thought was really beautiful.

Speaker 2:

And Shane was the nicest one. Shane was the nicest one. Shane was always the one being like him, you know, like correcting the pronouns and by just I feel like Shane, okay, super shitty partner and girlfriend, but very good friend to everybody. This this dog and her squeaky toy. Our dog is on one today. I'm so sorry, you guys. But um, yeah, I also am just like, if you could be f I would say this all the time about Jenny, who was genuinely, oh, I the camera almost knocked over. Jenny, who is genuinely a horrible person. I'm like, how could they stay friends with her, but be so mean? Because by the way, Jenny was also from the Midwest. There was also this class thing happening.

Speaker 1:

But I know, but then Jenny got rich and got stylish.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but Max worked for a tech company. He was an engineer, whatever. Like he must have been making good ass money too. He was, yeah. So it's like they were just being mean to him because he was trans. And this was so this was the reason that it felt like they were trying to portray him as the butt of the joke. I thought especially when they made Max get pregnant. Because I'm not saying it's a joke if a trans guy gets pregnant. I'm sure that that does happen. I know that that happens, right? But it was like the way and the writing for it where it's like he's at the clinic and he's he's like, Yeah, look at me. I'm a pregnant man. Like it doesn't just happen in the national inquiry.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And it's like, it felt like they were trying to make it look so ridiculous. Like, haha, look at how ridiculous this is.

Speaker 1:

You know what I mean? It did, yeah. It was really sad.

Speaker 2:

And it seemed like a conservative meme.

Speaker 1:

I read about this a little bit. And first of all, the writers of the show, um, the writer of the show and who also produced the show, she was a lesbian. And um, the writers did not consult any trans people at the time. So they what what it says is like Max's arc reflected cisgender anxieties about transition more than the real authentic experiences of the time, which I thought was really interesting.

Speaker 2:

Like the perceived idea of transness instead of the actual idea of it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And like they were really trying to portray like the struggles as like what straight, you know, people imagined their struggles to be versus like really understanding the trans experience.

Speaker 2:

I think that was by the way, is so annoying of a lesbian because it's like, or any queer person, marginalized person, you know, where it's like, you should know what it feels like for someone who's not in your minority group to try to tell the story of your life who. No lived experience of it. Why the fuck wouldn't you do that better?

Speaker 1:

Exactly. And so the actor who played Max actually transitioned after after they were on the show. And he has spoken about how difficult and isolating that role was because he was non-binary when he was on the show. Um, but it was before that was really a term. So I forget what he called himself, but now he would say he was like non-binary at the time. And he really talked about how much it really reflected the lack of the lack of just trans representation in like TV writing rooms at the time. And you're just having these like lesbians trying to talk about the trans experience and write about the trans experience, and it just really did not hit.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It would be the same way as if a man wrote this show about lesbians, a great man. It would be the same thing. And yeah, I don't know. I mean, I felt like the worst part was when he was pregnant with the whole shower thing, you know? And obviously, Jenny was the absolute worst. Like she is just a mean, horrible person. Horrible. And just talking, like constantly talking about like a beautiful of a mother. Look at you're such a beautiful mother. And like your breasts look so nice. And it's like, why? Okay, first of all, even if I and I am a woman, I don't want my friends talking about how beautiful my breasts look ever. Period. Let alone if you are obviously not happy, not comfortable, not wanting to be in that body that you're in. He already had talked extensively about top surgery.

Speaker 1:

Well, he the reason why he found out he was pregnant is because he went to get top surgery and they like did a test. Yeah, that's how he found out I was pregnant. So he was already devastated that he couldn't get surgery.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. And now you're talking about like horrible. It's and they're like, oh, she's just horrible. And they're fully still calling him, a she, her at this shower. Shane is the only one being like, guys, stop. Like it was that was a hard watch. I felt so bad for Max.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. That's definitely the hardest. It's a whole, the whole Max character. It's the hardest part of the whole show. I will say that they redeemed themselves in Generation Q.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Um, with all the various trans storylines, and and they handled those a lot better this time around. Oh my god.

Speaker 2:

So much better.

Speaker 1:

Oh my god.

Speaker 2:

And and on that same note, I think that this is also interesting is that in Generation Q, which is the we keep talking about it, it's the reboot version of Elbert that came out, I think, in 2021 or 2020, something like that. And um all everyone on that show was queer. Whereas in this OG version, I would say not even half of the total actors, because they have a lot of characters coming throughout the six seasons. You know, there's actually a lot of people coming and going. But I don't know. It's like even that has changed. Well, I guess except for Bet and Tina are still on Generation Q, but they were, I guess, kind of like an extension of the first one. But otherwise, every other person, every other person was queer, which is really nice, I think.

Speaker 1:

Because it is nice.

Speaker 2:

You're watching the show, and I would be like, is that person really gay? And we'd have to Google it. Usually you could kind of tell.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I feel like other Bet seems like a power lesbian. She is a good ass actress. I'm like, are you sure, Bet? Are you sure?

Speaker 1:

I know.

Speaker 2:

But otherwise, it would be like, uh, you could kind of tell when they were acting, you know?

Speaker 1:

I know. Amazing. Okay, and it's so funny because we talked about how this is like the first mainstream show. But in some ways, they still had to play to the patriarchy, like the patriarchy and the male gaze in the way that they did the show for it to be successful.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Like every scene, every episode, almost every episode, it starts with like a really steamy sex scene.

Speaker 2:

If not starting, there's always going to be a extensive sex.

Speaker 1:

In every every single episode. Yeah, and not just like a little make out, like it's a full-on. I would say they really did not nail the lesbian deathbed of it all in the outward.

Speaker 2:

That's what I was thinking about. But then again, a lot of them were they weren't other than Bet and Tina. They did talk about it a little bit with Bet and Tina in the very beginning when they're like, oh, it's been forever. Because they were actually lifelong partners, like, you know, long-term partners. Everyone else was just kind of dating. So maybe that was why it was different. But yeah, it was you kind of are wondering as a queer person or a queer woman watching this, you know, you're like, are they? Is it? I even asked, I was like, is the writer of this a lesbian or not? Because sometimes it seemed so male gazy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And you're like, no, it is. And then I think it was the fourth or fifth season when they have this like really meta thing happening where Jenny wrote a book that turns into a movie. And that book and movie is the L word. So it's like showing the movie or showing the show in the show. And that is when it is overtly told to us as the audience, like, oh yeah, as they're trying to sell the show to these different producers and stuff. They're like, no, we want more sex scenes. We want more lesbian sex. And they're kind of like making a mockery.

Speaker 1:

We want the main character to end up with a guy, even though she's a lesbian, you know.

Speaker 2:

They're like talking shit about Hollywood, which is so good. Corey.

Speaker 1:

Because they're like, well, the marketing team thinks it would be better if there was more sex. Or the marketing team thinks it would be better if the main lesbian character ends up with a guy. That we that will sell to more people.

Speaker 2:

And also with Jenny directing the movie, Jenny being a lesbian, and most of the girls were not queer who were cast for the show. So I think that was also representative of it. There were a few that were lesbians. Yeah. And during the sex scene, she'd be like, it's obvious you don't know how to fuck a woman. Like that's not how it would happen. I'm hiring a sex coach. I'm hiring a sex coach to teach you guys how to do it because this is so inaccurate. And I'm just taking all this as like, oh, I feel like that happened with the creation of this show.

Speaker 1:

It must have.

Speaker 2:

I think it had to have because it kind of felt like they were like showing us all this stuff that we were wondering.

Speaker 1:

Exactly.

Speaker 2:

So it was like a weird meta storyline, but I liked it.

Speaker 1:

I really liked it too.

Speaker 2:

I liked it more than Jenny's weird, dark stories in the first two seasons.

Speaker 1:

Oh god, the carnival stories were weird as well. We hate Jenny. At first, the most hated kids.

Speaker 2:

I remember hating her, and it's been years since I've rewatched it through. And in the first season, it's like, ah, you feel kind of bad for her because of the marina of it all. And she's a baby, like Jenny's a baby gay. She's confused, she's coming out. And then the second one, you also she's kind of getting weird, but you still feel kind of bad for her because she obviously has this trauma. And I'm like, was she that bad, or was I just being mean to poor Jenny? And then Jenny, once she's like confident in her skin again, you're like, Oh, you are an emotional terrorist. Like, you are a horrible human being. Horrible. Horrible.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, she was the worst.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Good actress, though.

Speaker 1:

Very good actress. I'm you know they're a good actress when you're like, is that just how you are in real life? Yeah. Because it doesn't even seem like you're acting. Yeah. Amazing. So, but yeah, I feel like now we have so much more representation, and things are just like less overtly sexualized.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about because we we were talking about this before, you know, there are six seasons. So it's taken us a while to watch them all. And so we've been talking about it all many nights on our walks. And when we were talking about some of the differences, and I'm like, yeah, but there's so many gay characters and gay women characters or queer women characters in shows now that are not sexualized at all. Like they're just there, you know, and they're just existing. I was thinking about this is such a random example, but like Ginny in Georgia. I know Max. Max is so cute. And it's like, yeah, she has the whole teenage thing of like, oh, I'm gonna lose my virginity. But it's like it's not sexualized. It's not any more than the other girls. You know, they're not sexualizing her because she's gay. It's just like an experience of any teenage person who's going through that angst.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's so much more normal now to, you know, see gay characters, see bi characters, people exploring, not knowing exactly what they are at the time, exploring their their gender identities, even everything.

Speaker 2:

Like on the summary term pretty, Jeremiah being bi. I felt like that was a curveball, you know? Because I I almost feel like it's even less expected with guys. So where it's just like, oh yeah, he's just bi. He likes both. Like most of the time, people are like, What? You mean you're gay?

Speaker 1:

You know, it's like this whole with men, people can't handle men being bi.

Speaker 2:

They really can't. So it is, it's so nice to see this now where these there's characters that are just and like it's part of who they are, but that's not the whole premise of their character at all. And you know, again, it just shows how far that we've come. And also, we still need a show like Lward or Generation Q that was not just lesbians, you know, it was like all different kinds of queer people that is like just a queer show. Because there's difference of a queer person in a show, yeah, versus a queer show, you know?

Speaker 1:

A hundred percent because it's like literally everything they're talking about, everything they're doing. It's just like queer culture in a capsule. Yeah. Whereas like it's been we've been talking about this, how it's been so hard now that L word's over to go back to watching straight TV.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Because it's like, it's just so hard to relate to. It's like you're you're in this when you're watching L word, you're in this world where it's like, yes, this is all queer culture encapsulated, all the jokes, all the storylines, just everything. And then you go back to watching straight TV where there's like a couple of gay characters or whatever, and you're like, if you're lit, but they're living in a straight world. Yeah. You know, you kind of like get glimpses of the queer culture, but it's just maybe it's so it's just like heteronormativity everywhere, and it's so sad.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's so hard. It's so hard to go back because, and that's why we started watching Generation Q after, even though we've seen it like 10 times, because we're just like, I it's too hard. It's too hard because it's not just about like watching gay people. It's like you said, it's the culture, it's in the air that they breathe, it's in the it's in all the intricacies of the relationship, the jokes, the everything. It's everything, everything, it's the way of being. Yes, and it's so comforting, it's so comforting to watch.

Speaker 1:

I know, I know. It really is. It's it's hard to go back to the to straight TV.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so uh another like major thing that we love about it, it's just like it's just the concept of like how family shows up, how chosen family shows up, like they really explore this topic. I mean, I feel like the whole concept of L word is about having a chosen family. I mean, it's like that whole core friend group. It's you know, they in many cases throughout the whole show, they do act as each other's family. Like, yeah, you know, whether they're they're there for you know the birth of Bet and Tina's baby or like all the breakups, the weddings, the deaths that happen throughout the show.

Speaker 2:

It's just like getting girlfriends back, grand gestures, exactly like supporting each other through it all, calling in the middle of the night.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's just like it really emphasizes where, like, obviously, in the queer experiment experience, a big part of the queer experience for a lot of people is losing your family, and that you know, your friends can become that safety net or like become your family in that way.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And so that's one of the things that I love so much about is those friendships. Like, yeah, that's been such a big experience in my life is like having queer friends who are like family, yeah. You can celebrate holidays with or like just be there for in that way.

Speaker 2:

But that's why I think the show itself is so comforting to watch because of the projecting and parasocial relationships of it all. You're like, Alice is my best friend, actually. It just feels like, oh, somebody gets me. And it, if you are feeling lonely as a queer person, it is so comforting that way, I think. Because yeah, it's like we have queer friends now, but I feel like they're more they're newer friendships, they're not as deep as what you see on the show. They've obviously been friends for decades at this point. And it's like I would also feel a little jealous, you know, or it's like, oh, I want that. Or like I can't wait to have that because I do feel like it will happen deeper over time. But yeah, I think like especially when you have lost your family or have estrangement from your family around your queerness, then you you crave that chosen family even more. Like that's really where it came from because queer people have historically been rejected not only from their family, but from society, from culture, from religion, you know, from major groups. And so we've leaned on each other for support, you know.

Speaker 1:

And it's and even if your family like loves you, but maybe doesn't fully get you, or like they accept you, but they don't fully get you. Like I feel like it's more my experience in in some instances with like certain parts of my family. But just having the that like for the friends that are family to like that will understand as you're going through big moments in your life, and they understand how hard it was because you overcame something because you're a gay person, or your maybe your family doesn't isn't celebrating you in the way that you would want to be celebrated. Like having that through friends who are your family has been so huge for me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because we are biologically wired to crave that connection, you know, and yeah, call it community, call it family, call whatever you want. But it's like we literally need that to survive without it. Your your lifespan is actually shorter without that community, that support around you. So yeah, it's like it it makes sense that we have that longing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And so while I think like overall societal acceptance acceptance of queer people has improved in the last 20 years, and therefore like more families are more accepting. I would say this is still like such a critical piece for the queer community because still so many people aren't accepted by their families, and so it's like I think this is gonna be something where it's like this will withstand the test of time of like this the concept of like calling you know, calling other gays family.

Speaker 2:

Like, yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1:

I love when people are like, Oh, they're family, like don't worry, you know, like they got you.

Speaker 2:

Because it's a you know, it's like laws can change and everything, but that's not always gonna change every single person's mind. And I would say most people the the root of most estrangement with family and queerness is religion, you know. So that's separate than laws and government and rights, and that is more a part of the culture, and it's like you can change laws, and that's not necessarily gonna change the culture. It can slightly, like it definitely improves things and it can kind of start to normalize and open up people's minds a little bit, but we can't force people to not be religious and love gay people, like you can't make that happen. No, so I do sadly think like that will be a part. I I don't know when that will ever change.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

As long as these interpretations of religion are what they are.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And one of my favorite parts about the whole show was the planet. Oh my god. And the way I think about it is like the planet was like the queer limit living room of the house, you know? It's like it was a space that your chosen family would all come together and celebrate and have these moments and laughters and meals. It was like the queer living space, dining space, whatever you want to call it. And it was like, it's it's almost a character of its of its own.

Speaker 2:

It is, it definitely is. It's like, what is it in Friends? Central Perk? Yeah, Central Perk. It's the same thing as that. So if you haven't seen the show, it's the same thing as that, where it's like this place that it's constantly, or what you know, whatever the diners are and all of those old shows, it's the same as that where it's like the bar and cheers. It is an actual character, or or in Gilmer Girls, Luke's place. It's like there are those places that it's just like, ah, just iconic. Just seeing it feels comforting to be there. And it's just a bunch of queers gathered around the table talking about all of their bullshit and drama and girl problems.

Speaker 1:

Literally, it's like one of my fantasies. Like if it could be on my bucket list, would be able to like, I would want to go to Hogwarts, but I want to go to the planet. I like preface first.

Speaker 2:

I want to go to Hogwarts. First is Hogwarts.

Speaker 1:

But I really want to go to the planet. And I want to go to the planet back in like 2007, you know, like I want to teleport back into owned it too. Yes. Because I love Kit. When Kit owns it, and you just walk in and you're just like, it, it's like you can just like exhale. You're surrounded by all your favorite people, and like it's just would be so exciting to like go there on Sunday for brunch or something. Yeah. I just picture it. And that is one of the things that really has changed since the early 2000s is the number of queer bars and queer cafes and spaces that we have. So it the number of queer spaces that we have, it's gone down somewhere between 30 and 50%.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And didn't you ask ChatGBT why? Because we were guessing. Yes. We were like taking all these guesses why, and we're like, well, all the lesbians got old and then they stopped going out. But what did what did chat say?

Speaker 1:

The two main reasons why these spaces have really declined is number one is technology. So like having Tinder, Hinge, all these dating apps. The these queer spaces used to be like how you would meet people to date, hook up with, you know, be friends with that. It was a necessity. Everything was an absolute necessity. And I remember like in 2009 when I was coming out, it was like I was at my local gay bar, Lush in Minnesota, in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Best gay bar ever. And I was like, Oh, yeah. Four to five nights a week. Four to five nights a week. Why didn't you take me there a few weeks? I will take you there. I love that bar.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

And it was just, you know, it was iconic. And it to me it felt like the planet because it was also like we would do brunch there. We'd also go out on the weekends. You know, it was like, oh, they just had the best, the best parties and best events. And but we didn't have dating apps back then. It was like that's how you met girls was you were gonna go to Lush on Friday night or whatever, and you were gonna meet meet girls. And the other thing too is which I think um is still really prominent today, was that was similar back then is that we had big like monthly parties where it'd be like once a month, you know, there's a party on Friday night at this, you know, they'd rent a venue, and that's definitely still a thing today in big cities. You can find these once-a-month parties. Yeah, but to me, it's so sad that these queer spaces have gone away.

Speaker 2:

The other main reason is because of just I mean, not totally gone away, they've just reduced.

Speaker 1:

They've reduced, yeah. I remember it it really started to happen around um around 2015. A lot of these spaces start to shut down, um, where like all the lesbian bars in San Francisco shut down around 2015. There was two or three, and at the time they all shut down. There's now multiple that have come back or researched, new new spaces that have come up, but it was a thing where like major cities with lesbian bars that have been around for 40 years all started to shut down. And the second reason why this happened is really attributed to just societal acceptance. Like you can be in, you know, straight spaces and be out and have PDA and it's accepted. And so another thing, which is a great thing.

Speaker 2:

But it's also why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't we be accepted in society and also have a space of our own?

Speaker 1:

Well, if we want our own spaces, we have to support those spaces, which is the biggest challenge, is because we're old, especially lesbians, and why these spaces struggle once we couple up, maybe we'll go out once a month, but like that's not enough to sustain these, you know. We first of all it's a smaller population.

Speaker 2:

But that's why the planet was great, because it was like a restaurant, too. Yeah, it really wasn't as much about the nightlife of it all, it was like a hangout.

Speaker 1:

It was a well, they did all of it, they also had nightly parties and they had they did like you know, they had like guys' nights on certain nights of the week, they had girls' nights, so they they did lot, they had drag shows. Yeah, so that was what why I think it was so successful, was because it really could bring impact into everything. But my lesbian bars struggle.

Speaker 2:

We would support it by going to eat there several times a week. Would we? We don't leave our house. Yes. I would like you to leave the house more, and this will come up one week, and who's the problem, I'm sure.

Speaker 1:

I really wish that there was a gay bar in our town.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Well, there's not in San Diego anywhere? In San Diego there is, yeah, but not.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but that's the closest. We'd have to drive 30 minutes to go to the gossip grill, which is an amazing, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we're supposed to do it. If you go to San Diego, definitely go to the gossip grill. Okay. Okay. So I mean, I think just to wrap things up. We love Elbert. We love the show. It's nostalgic in so many ways. It also reminds us how far we've come. And that things were different back then, especially for for our trans friends, to and we have a long way to go still.

Speaker 2:

It also is this kind of like cornerstone in lesbian culture. It feels like a necessity to watch it if you're going to start dating women. Because yeah, there will be people will make jokes and stuff, and you're not gonna get them. Literally, again, Lex, our producer, we're talking about different podcast clips, and she helps with some of our social stuff too. And she had said, she's like, Oh yeah, like I saw this clip of these two random people. I think they have a podcast, it was from their podcast page, and it was them at Home Depot. And I was like, What podcast was it? Because I know like all the lesbian podcasts. And she was like, I don't remember what it was called. I'll send it to you. It was the pants pod okay for Shane and Alice. Shane and Alice. And I was like, Shane and Alice? Like, why didn't you just say that? She's like, I don't know, because she's never seen the L word. She didn't know. Unbelievable.

Speaker 1:

I used to say, like, when I was coming out, one of the jokes that me and my friends had was for for people who were coming out was that you'd get your Girl Scout sash, and then you needed to start accumulating your lesbian badges. Your pins, yeah. Right? And and one of those lesbian badges was watching the L word. Yeah. And so you've got, if you haven't watched it and you want your queer badge on your Girl Scout sash, you need to go and watch the L word.

Speaker 2:

It yeah, you gotta give it a chance at least. And I do think we'll probably also cover Generation Q at some point, and maybe the real L word too.

Speaker 1:

I hope we do the real L word.

Speaker 2:

We love you, Whitney Mixter.

Speaker 1:

You gay icon. That, oh, it just this We have to do lore about Whitney Mixter.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we're going to. She's on the list. But it was that's what I mean by it being this kind of like cornerstone of lesbian culture where there was such a ripple effect after with the real L word, which is now a reality show of real lesbians in LA. You know, it was like the reality version of this scripted show. So that was huge to have just a full lesbian reality show. Again, have we had one since? Like, I don't think so. So, and that's something lesbians can support because we are at home bedrotting all the time.

Speaker 1:

We can support queer media.

Speaker 2:

Support queer in the arts. Okay. And then, and then it also made Generation Q. It also made that documentary I told you that was like the real L word in Mississippi, I think. Yeah, somewhere that was it was really, it was honestly pretty sad to watch, but there's been all these iterations of it. And yeah, it's something that is obviously still talked about a lot. And you should go watch it. Period the end.

Speaker 1:

Period the end. We love it. We love it. We're shipping it. So, honey, we we can't ship it. What are we shipping it with? I don't know, but I don't, I clearly don't know how to use the sentence still. Will I ever learn how? Okay, honey, who is the problem for you this week?

Speaker 2:

I can I see. I forget what I wrote down. My brain. Okay.

Speaker 1:

You little weirdo.

Speaker 2:

Who is the problem? Okay. So I feel like wearing underwear is a punishment. It's a punishment. I feel like my vagina is in jail.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Nobody wants to be in jail. I want to be free.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So my question is am I the problem for having that feeling? Don't nod your head. Or is it the fact that underwear, like, can they make a more comfortable underwear that doesn't feel like a punishment so that I can wear it sometimes when I need to? I love wearing underwear. You have a weird obsession with underwear.

Speaker 1:

I have underwear on 24 hours a day, except for when I'm showering. You probably do wear it to showering underwear. No, it makes me feel safe. It I it just I have the opposite feeling as you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it makes me feel trapped. It it feels like a punishment, like I said. So, so yeah, it's like, is it me? Probably, or is it the way the underwear is made? Like, is there a way to make it less not what is the word I'm looking for? Just like, okay, not as horrible.

Speaker 1:

Is amazing. Like, I love my waxers.

Speaker 2:

I'm not, I'm not a waxer girly. Yeah, I understand that. So maybe what I really need you guys to do is just tell me your favorite underwear. I'm also on a mission for natural fibers only, non-toxic.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, that's really important.

Speaker 2:

That's not too much material up in there.

Speaker 1:

You know, it's like I like restricted.

Speaker 2:

I like a skimpy thong situation.

Speaker 1:

Of course you do.

Speaker 2:

Of course you do. Sometimes I will go for a boy short, like a Waxer or something, but that'd be like to sleep in. No, I would never wear underwear to sleep.

Speaker 1:

Okay, whatever. Fine. Help help her out, please. Help her out. I mean, I'm cool if you don't wear underwear. It's all good. Yeah, I'm sure you are. Okay, my who's the problem is L-word related this week. Okay. And what I want to know is if it is us, queers, for being incestuous and creating a situation where we're all one to two degrees away from each other, for example, on the chart, Alice's chart. Or is it the community's fault for being too small? We need to recruit more gays.

Speaker 2:

Isn't that kind of the same on either side? How can we not be incestuous if the community isn't small?

Speaker 1:

Or like, is it our fault for being basically is it the queer's fault for being too incestuous in which we're all so connected on the chart?

Speaker 2:

No, we can't help we need more people to have a gay awakening. We can't help it.

Speaker 1:

Even you and I, okay. I grew up in Wisconsin, you grew up in California. It's like you didn't come out until you were 31 years old, and somehow we're one degree apart from each other. No, two degrees. Two, but you used to make out and she dated one of my close friends from San Francisco who hooked up with a girl that I hooked up with. So we're connected. Yeah. How is that even possible? I have a feeling I think it's mostly that we're a little bit too incestuous. Like I've got to be a good thing.

Speaker 2:

But what do you mean too incestuous? Who else are we supposed to hook up with if not other gay people? I would rather hook up with a gay person. Sometimes you were nowhere near my home. You were in Wisconsin. Like that, what do you mean? We are not the problem.

Speaker 1:

Alright, maybe we're not the problem.

Speaker 2:

It's the straights, the straits are the problem. You need to have the gay awakening. Although I've heard before I have heard that the straights are upset by me constantly saying being 100% straight is not real. Apparently, it is real.

Speaker 1:

People are reaching out to me as well. Like, I am 100% straight. Like, thanks for supporting me.

Speaker 2:

You are valid. Okay, you are valid. And we are so happy that you're here. And we'll be even happier when you're queer. We love you guys.

Speaker 1:

We love you. See you next week.

Speaker 2:

See you next week. Thank you so much for listening to the show. We're so happy to have you here. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you're listening to podcasts. We love getting commentary from you on Spotify and on YouTube. And as always, if you love this episode or any of our episodes, make sure to share it with a friend or somebody who will appreciate the conversation.

Speaker 1:

And make sure to follow us on all their socials at WivesNot Sisters Pod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Thanks, guys. See you next week.