Wives Not Sisters
A playful, unfiltered podcast where a married wlw couple dives into the chaos of modern relationships, pop culture, queer lore, and all the little things most people wouldn’t admit out loud.
Wives Not Sisters is a queer-led podcast where marriage meets humor, honesty, and a little too much sharing but in the best way. We’re here to normalize nuance in relationships -- from romantic, platonic, familial, and everything in between- and to create a space where deep conversations and dumb jokes can coexist. Through real talk, playful debates, and just enough oversharing, we’re building a community that’s reflective, ridiculous, and radically relatable.
Wives Not Sisters
The TERF Talk
In this episode, Alix & Kayla dive into the internet discourse that blew up:
Are lesbians allowed to have dating preferences—specifically around bi women or trans women—without being labeled discriminatory or TERFs? Check out the post that started the comments war HERE!
This conversation isn’t about exclusion—it's about autonomy, nuance, and consent in queer dating.
🎙️ Whether you agree or disagree, you’ll want to be in the comments for this one.
02:00 – Why real conversations matter
02:32 – Gay This or That (gay brunch vs. gay rave, U-Haul vs. slow burn, etc.)
06:10 – Episode topic reveal: The TERF Talk
07:40 – The viral reel that started everything
10:39 – When “preferences” go viral
12:15 – What TERF actually means
16:44 – “Are we TERFs?”
22:28 – Sexual preference vs. discrimination
30:02 – Should we question our preferences?
38:30 – “Why say it out loud?”
43:26 – Preferences in queer culture (femme for femme, masc, etc.)
51:06 – Why gay men don’t get this backlash
56:21 – My body, my choice—also applies to dating
01:02:17 – Who’s the problem? (Queer Ultimatum being cancelled)
#LGBTQ #LesbianPodcast #QueerDating #TERFConversation #DatingPreferences #QueerRepresentation #PodcastClips #WLW #LGBTQPodcast #BuzzsproutPodcast #QueerCommunity #BiWomen #TransWomenAreWomen #MyBodyMyChoice #Sapphic
Connect with us on social media: IG: @wivesnotsisterspod | TikTok: @wivesnotsisterspod | Youtube: @wivesnotsisterspod
Follow our hosts on Instagram: @kaylalanielsen @alix_tucker
You can also watch our episodes on Youtube at youtube.com/@wivesnotsisterspod!
Hey guys, it's Alix and Kayla. And we're married, not related, definitely codependent. But in a cute way.
Speaker 2:And we're back.
Speaker 1:Here we are.
Speaker 2:We're barely hanging on by a thread over here.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:It's it's been a rough one.
Speaker 1:Let's just say if you hear us coughing, sniffing, sounding like I have a very scratchy voice at the minute.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Bear with me.
Speaker 2:Called the swine flu and pneumonia. Okay. So we're doing our best over here. Yeah. But we're back and we have quite the episode in store today.
Speaker 1:I know. I'm excited, nervous, terrified. All the above.
Speaker 2:All of the above. Um, but before we get into it, and before I lead, we also just wanted to say thank you to everybody who's here, who listens, who engages on socials, because I mean, this, especially this episode, is literally a result of all of your commentary.
Speaker 1:So many commentars on socials.
Speaker 2:And even the ones that are not nice. I mean, it all is very interesting and helpful for us to read.
Speaker 1:I didn't know it was gonna spark the discussion that it did.
Speaker 2:Either did I, either did I.
Speaker 1:Um, so yeah, I'm excited to go a little bit deeper.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and still, you know, we love, I think, and we'll get into this in the episode. There's obviously a difference in being able to like express a differing opinion and just fully kind of like trolling or criticizing someone. So it's like, even with this episode, if you have a differing opinion or want to put your two cents in, please go to the socials and do that or on the Spotify if you want to do it on Spotify when you're listening to the episode, because it is super helpful. And I think like any sort of discourse is helpful, not only for us, but other people are in the comments reading it too, but just trying to keep it civil.
Speaker 1:It's part of why we wanted to start this is to like have real conversations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and start real conversations. So it's happening and thank you. And if you love this episode, send it to someone. If you hate this episode, send it to someone and be like, look at these idiots. What are they talking about? I don't care. Just send it to people and leave your reviews. We love you, we love you, we love you. Okay. My turn to lead. Yeah, we're just gonna do a little light, fun warm-up of this or that. Let's do it. Gay version, queer version.
Speaker 1:We love gay games.
Speaker 2:Okay, gay brunch or gay rave?
Speaker 1:Ooh. I'm gonna go with a rave. Oh, okay. I used to be a bruncher, but I think I'm in the raves now. You think you're have you even been to a rave before?
Speaker 2:No, but you call me a twink, so yeah, you really are when we have our own private raves together. It's it's a lot. I wish I could post that photo, but I love glow sticks, you know? They're so fun. Okay, Taylor Swift or Hailey Kyoko?
Speaker 1:Hailey Kyoko for sure.
Speaker 2:You-haul or slow burn?
Speaker 1:You-haul.
Speaker 2:But not always. You don't always I used to be a slow burner, but you've changed me, so I'm gonna go you-hauler. Um, I love you too soon or too late. Too soon. Yeah, that's definitely too soon for sure. Three days in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like when you can't keep it in, you just gotta it just comes out of you. I love that.
Speaker 2:Yes. I don't know if you're gonna know what this is. Do you know what cottage core is? Kind of like tennis core, but cottage version. Okay, like preppy? No, more like coastal grandma. You know that. Okay, so cottage core or city queer.
Speaker 1:Ooh, they both have a time and a place. You know, I used to be a city queer, and then but I feel like I may marry to cottage core.
Speaker 2:Yes. Um you are not cottage core. I'm not cottage core.
Speaker 1:I'm city queer, but I'm into the cottage core life.
Speaker 2:Um, queer film or bad reality TV.
Speaker 1:Queer film? Yeah, like a movie. Bad reality TV.
Speaker 2:I know. We're trash that way.
Speaker 1:If it's queer, even better.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, yes. Soft launch or hard launch?
Speaker 1:No launch.
Speaker 2:Whatever. You launched us.
Speaker 1:Hard launch. I don't like to be able to do it.
Speaker 2:Your entire page is a memorial to be like.
Speaker 1:I feel like Shannon Beverage is the ultimate soft launcher, and it's just like, I feel like she loves having the Carmen San Diego's fill-up figure out her life, but I've I have more of a just a here, here I am. Here we are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is it. Um for a first date, coffee or cocktails.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't drink either anymore, but definitely cocktails.
Speaker 2:Okay. Pillow talk or sleep immediately.
Speaker 1:Sleep immediately.
Speaker 2:Don't give me that look. You're giving me that look because I want to chat. You always want to chat when I'm ready for bed. Text back right away or play it cool.
Speaker 1:Play it cool.
Speaker 2:Okay. Really? Do I really need to put our entire?
Speaker 1:I'm just saying, you changed everything for me, but I normally I'd be a play it cooler.
Speaker 2:And what happened? I don't know. No chill. I have no chill with that. No chill. Crush at first sight or enemies to lovers. Ooh.
Speaker 1:I've never been an enemies to lovers person.
Speaker 2:You don't really have enemies.
Speaker 1:So I'm gonna go crush at first sight.
Speaker 2:Okay, last one slow dancing in the kitchen or dancing in the club.
Speaker 1:Slow dancing in the kitchen for sure.
Speaker 2:Of course. You just melted just thinking about it. You're like, oh.
Speaker 1:I'm always trying to get you to slow dance with me in the kitchen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I just want to eat. You know, I'm like, why? Let's get to the point, which is the food.
Speaker 1:This is like, it's just part of the enjoyment of our life. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Okay. Are we warm? Are we ready?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I'm so curious how you're gonna intro this topic.
Speaker 2:Well, do you know the name of the episode?
Speaker 1:Something about turfs. It's the turf talk. The turf talk.
Speaker 2:So today we're talking about lesbians and trans women and the kind of relationship and the discourse around lesbians dating or not dating trans women based on their preference. And this whole thing came from a post that was both on Instagram and also on TikTok. I think I can't remember which one I posted it on first. I think I don't know. I think Instagram, but so basically, if you don't already know, I'm the one that runs the socials. So um, but sometimes I will kind of like make it in your perspective as well. And you know, obviously we talk about it and I can capture your voice and whatnot. So when we did our episode Lesbians versus bi girls, which I highly recommend going and listening to, there's gonna be a lot of overlaps here. When we did that episode, I had shared a reel that was kind of revolved around that episode that was more from your perspective. And it was, you know, say it was you, and then saying, like, oh, I had a rule that I was never gonna date any bi girls. And then I met my wife, who is very bi and also had never been in a relationship with a woman before. And our dog. Okay, that's not the time for the squeaky toy. And um had never been in a relationship before. And then the last slide said something like, Don't let labels get in the way of love. Yeah. Because that that was so much of our story, you know, it was like I broke all of your quote-unquote rules.
Speaker 1:You broke my rules. That was the whole point of that was the whole point of the episode. The episode was that I had all these rules, and you know, I could have let that get in the way of me finding and being with the person I'm supposed to be with. But at the end of the day, it's like, you know, you gotta let down your walls and let, you know, take your barriers down and you know, not let those things get in the way.
Speaker 2:Well, you don't have to.
Speaker 1:You have to, but but if you're only limiting yourself, right? Find the person you're supposed to be with, and they don't fit in to the box that you had imagined them to be.
Speaker 2:If the feeling is there and you're denying that feeling based on these kind of like preconceived rules or ideas or expectations, like you said, you're really only hurting yourself and probably also that person too, because they want to be with you, presumably. But otherwise, it's like, you know, yeah, try to open your heart to that. So, anyway, so I'd made that post first. And some lesbians had reactions to that of like, hey, don't come for us if we don't want to date by girls. And, you know, it's perfectly fine, essentially, if I only want to date other lesbians. And that's, you know, they were totally fair. Exactly. And so, first of all, I can resonate with that. First of all, it was like, well, you obviously didn't listen to the episode because we also say that it's like, do obviously whatever you want to do, as long as you're not actively hurting people, do whatever you want to do. But that was also part of the episode. So I made another reel that was kind of affirming what people had said, and also something that we had talked about in the episode. Although our episode was more exclusively about bi girls and lesbians, it also umbrellaed out based on these comments to trans women as well, where it's like, if I don't want to date someone of a certain label or identity, then I don't have to. And so I made another, another post. And this was a seven-second reel. And I'm just gonna read verbatim what the text said in the post. It said, lesbians are allowed to have preferences, which means they're able to say that they don't want to date by or trans women without being discriminatory or exclusionary. So it's just like a silly video of us eating ice cream, and that text is over the video. So, what I will say right off the bat is definitely didn't realize we were gonna get the response that we did.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:As far as like at the time of recording, there are almost 1700 comments on Instagram and 500 on TikTok. So at least for us, that is a lot, you know? Um, so it wasn't like intentionally rage bait by any means. I know some people were kind of saying that it was. Um, it was really just trying to kind of like deepen the conversation that we had already had that week. And what I will say is that, and what several commenters said that I do agree with is like this is such a more nuanced topic than should be in a five to seven second reel.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And absolutely, yes, that is correct. That's why we have a podcast. And exactly. So I was like, well, that just tells me that this really deserves a whole episode because it is a whole ass conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:So I brought it up to you where I was like, I think we should do a whole episode on this. And you're like, yeah, I think so. Because I also, it's like I like being in the comments and replying to people and everything. But as it started going off, it was like, okay, I'm not gonna battle it out with everyone in the comments. People are already doing that amongst themselves. And similar to the post itself, it's like there's only so much you can say in a comment.
Speaker 1:For sure. And people have really strong opinions on this debate.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it's like I wanted to be able to have the space and time to go even deeper. So that's why we're doing this episode. If you want to go back and dig through the feed and find the post, you can. If you want to engage in the comments there, you can. But just remember, like we said at the beginning, you can disagree without being disrespectful or without being kind. Because some of the stuff in there got pretty nasty. That's that's all I'll say. Okay, so what was one of the most common words that was in the comments that we were getting?
Speaker 1:Well, I think we got called a lot of different names for sure in the comments, but the the main one that we got called was a TERF.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Do you know the definition of TERF?
Speaker 1:Well, I know what it stands for.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:What about a trans-exclusionary radical feminist?
Speaker 2:Yes. And is that a positive or a negative term?
Speaker 1:Well, I guess it depends on who you are and how you think about it, but in general, I would say it's considered negative.
Speaker 2:It's considered, yeah, maybe positive and negative isn't the right, but it's it's usually more of like an accusation or like it's like discriminatory. I know that people who actually are TERFs have kind of tried to reclaim it in that the same way that like we reclaim queer, and we're like, no, we are queer. So I know, yeah, it can have different different meanings, but most of the time if someone's like, you're a TERF, that's not a comment. It's a negative, yeah. It's a negative connotation. What what else do you know about TERFs?
Speaker 1:I think from what I know or like what I've heard is that why why it's like considered just a discriminatory thing is that TERFs don't believe that trans people are even real. Like they don't even think that that's a real identity or real thing that someone can actually be. So if you're a trans woman, they will just call you a man. They wouldn't acknowledge that you're actually a trans person. Like they don't think that that should even be acknowledged or identified. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that transgenderism is a social construct. Right. And that it's it's yeah, like you said, it's not real at all. So in that same vein, they and they do, I would say, focus a bit more on trans women because these are self-proclaimed feminists. So like that is what they're centering around. Um, so they don't believe that trans women are women. Like out of baseline, they don't believe that trans women are women because they believe that womanhood is only tied to biology, to the sex that you're born with. They believe that trans women shouldn't be included in any conversation around feminism or women's rights, obviously, because they don't think that trans women are women. Um, and the way that typically like they talk about trans women, like you said, because they will just call them a man, they really categorize trans women as like predators. Like, oh, you're just a man with this fetish of cross dressing or you know, whatever words they're using.
Speaker 1:You're just a man who's a predator who's like trying to invade women's spaces and and they're wanting to like protect women's spaces from these so-called predators in their mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say there's like a lot of similar to how there's this connection in society with queerness or like gayness and this sexual deviancy, yeah. You know, where it's like, oh yeah, it and even though this has evolved a bit nowadays, like you still see it all the time where it's like being gay to some people is literally synonymous with being a pedophile. Yeah, it's so messed up, which is not connected at all. And that is even like relates back to the Bible and these like really old texts. Um, and you you see that in the kind of turf world where there's this element of kind of sexual deviancy, how they particularly talk about trans women because they're like, oh, these are like perverted men who are trying to invade women's spaces and threaten women. And so their whole focus is like, I'm just trying to protect women, you know, and and therefore I don't think that trans women or who they call men, I don't think that they belong in women's sports and women's jails and women's spaces, lesbian bars, you know, whatever. Because there are definitely there are TERFs who are lesbians. There are even like I would say liberal people are like because this is more associated with being conservative, being on the right. You know, a lot of these ideals can be similar to that ideology. But there are liberal people as well and liberal queers who are TRIFs. Yeah. You know, it's like there are little organizations that are called LGB without the T.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I know that some of those people are, they would identify as liberal. So it's not, it's not just political. I think it can be simplified down to like, oh, that's conservative, that's right, that that's left, but it's it's not. It is separate. So all of that being said, do you think we're TERFs?
Speaker 1:No, we're definitely not TERFs. And I know we'll get into all the comments and like why people said that about us, but like first and foremost, we believe that trans people are real. Are real, that that's a real thing. They matter. They matter, that they're rights are important, rights under the law, like that's really important to us and always has been. And and I think that just right there says we're not TERFs.
Speaker 2:Exactly. The fact that a a a true TERF would have a huge problem with that statement in and of itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, a a true TERF would say the fact that you even affirm someone's pronouns that might be different than you know, whatever sex they were born with is like, oh, you're just feeding into this kind of like trans agenda and the social construct of transgenderism. Like that a real TERF would have zero tolerance for a trans person literally existing. Yeah. They would deny their existence.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I I think for me it's just like, you know, growing up in the queer community, uh, we've had I've known so many people who've transitioned over the last, you know, 15 years or so that I've been in the queer community. And they're going through a a struggle just like all of us go through. And in some ways, it that's totally different. And the transition that they're experiencing and the struggle that they're going through is totally different in some ways and similar in other ways as different queers in the community. But ultimately, it's like we are one community and we're here to support each other. And so for me, it's like I want to see our trans brothers and sisters like have the same rights in society that we've earned as gay people, right? And so I think like we've come a long way in the journey over the last like 15, 20 years, but there's still a long way to go and just like including including uh those folks and and making sure that they're getting to the same level of rights that they all deserve.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like a lot of people have said, and I know you've said this to me before too, privately, when we've talked about this, is like it almost seems as if the the struggles and the fights that we had as more of like a gay or queer community in the last, let's say like 20 years or so have now kind of the focus has shifted onto trans people because it's like, oh, gay people are in general more accepted. We're talking about like US culture at least. It's like we can marry, we can have kids, we you know, we are we can have basic human rights that straight people can have. And so now the focus is really on trans people. And I think that's also why people who are gay, who are queer, it's like, especially if you grew up in a time where you didn't have those rights, which, you know, I wasn't out at that time. You were out. Like you said, when you came out, you didn't think you were ever gonna be able to get married. That was just part of accepting coming out at that time. Maybe never be able to have kids. Like you knew that your life was going to be challenging in some ways and very different. And so it's like, I think even more so, people who experience that and also people who haven't, you know, like Gen Z doesn't know anything about that. And they still, I think that's really why the hope is for queer people and gay people to then like rally behind the people who are kind of in the spot, not the good spotlight, you know? And that is the trans community right now, which is the most kind of like attacked and vilified within the LGBTQ space. So I mean, just to kind of like reiterate what the text said. It said, let me read it again. Lesbians are allowed to have preferences, which means they're able to say they don't want to date by or trans women without being discriminatory or exclusionary. So that doesn't mean, first of all, so many comments calling us biphobic, calling us transphobic. We're gonna get into all of that, but also just being like, wow, the fact that you're spewing this hatred at trans people, there's nothing about those words that are hateful. No. At all. We're just talking about preferences in terms of like romantic we want to date, intimacy, yeah, intimate way, sexual, you know, that that doesn't mean like lesbians, you know, we didn't say like lesbians don't think trans people are real or trans women are not women. We didn't say anything about that. No, and this wasn't just the intention behind our words, these I'm talking about the actual words that were written.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Those are the actual words. There there was nothing hateful there. So, anyways, we're not TERFs. Sorry to let anyone down who's listening to this who's like, wait, I'm a TERF. This is awesome. I hope that these lesbians are TERFs. We're not.
Speaker 1:No, we're not. Sorry to disappoint you.
Speaker 2:Sorry to disappoint you. I want to get into some of the commons. Yeah. Like I said, there's collectively over 2,000. So we're obviously not going to get into all of them, but a lot of them were very repetitive. So I kind of tried to like hone in on ones that I felt like, okay, these are repetitive themes coming up. Yeah. Some of them we agree with, some of them we disagree with. And we want to go into both and why. Um, I don't say the username for these, but if it is your comment, thank you for leaving it. And I hope you're listening to this longer conversation instead of just commenting on socials. Okay, so for the first one, sexual preferences isn't discrimination unless you're treating people badly for their sexual preference. Pretty point blank. What do you think about that?
Speaker 1:I agree with that. It's like I feel like you can have uh a preference for any reason and not explain that to somebody. And that doesn't mean that you're discriminating against somebody, it just means that that's your preference. You know, I think like the user points out, it's like if that moves into a place where you're then being unkind or cruel or rude or like actually turns into behavior that is like mistreatment, I think that's when things cross a line.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:But just having a preference, I think there's nothing wrong with that. And frankly, I don't understand why that's such a radical thing to be like you know, that people have preferences. I'm sorry, that's just human nature. We are humans, we have preferences. That's just reality, that is life in general.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so, I mean, and that's so simply put, where it's just like sexual preference isn't discrimination. The way that you treat people can because of their sexual preference, that can be. Yeah. And that's exactly the point is like just because this is another funny thing that I just want to say about it. First of all, I'm not a lesbian. If you listen to this show, you know that I am a bi person, a by woman. And this is something that in the last episode were like, oh, we're the perfect people to talk about lesbians versus bi girls because I'm a by girl. You're a lesbian. And you had these set rules that we talked about. Yeah. I quote unquote broke all of them. And here we are, we're married, we've been together for six years, like, you know.
Speaker 1:So we get to talk about all the fun stuff.
Speaker 2:We get to talk about that. That's great. But because I I don't know if it's because I'm by I don't know. I don't know. I'm assuming it's just because of that openness that it's like even me making that real. And obviously, there's tons of people who don't follow us, don't listen to us because this is now like going semi-viral. So they don't know anything about us or me. But I'm not even a lesbian. I'm not even somebody that's like, I won't date a trans person. That's not even my preference. Yeah. And and that was also what I wrote when I, because I wrote lesbians, they are allowed. I wasn't even in like the first person of like, I'm allowed as a lesbian, which is funny. And so a lot of people too are calling it biphobic. I'm like, I'm bi. I commented that back to people, and they're like, well, you can still be biphobic even if you're bi.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I don't know.
Speaker 1:I just people love to tell other people what they are and how phobic, whatever, choose your phobic, they are.
Speaker 2:That, but it's just, it's like I in some way, it's like there are also a lot of people that commented about, you know, I'm a biperson and I see where you're coming from. I'm a trans person and I agree with this. I'm a trans person and I get this because I only date other trans people. I'm a bi person, I get this because I don't want to date lesbians anymore. So there were definitely people who also agreed with us that were in that category that people said we were like hating and and being mean to. And I think that's kind of the point is that I, at least like for me personally, I don't even, I feel like I don't have preferences in some way. Like I do have preferences. I do preferences. No, it's they're just like it's not really physical though. I don't really have physical preferences. Because we were talking about this last night when you're like, Well, would you date a trans person? We're like going over this episode, and you were like, would you though? Like, you know, I feel like I think you said, I feel like you wouldn't. And I was like, I've never been in a pos like the way that I feel is like meeting you and falling in love with you for me is no different than like meeting and falling in love with a trans person. Cause at that point in my life, I always thought I was gonna end up with a man when I met you. But it was like, I met you, I fell in love with you. The feeling was so strong and so real that it's like, why would I ignore this feeling just because of the body this person is in? Right. I understand that not everybody has that mentality. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, but I don't know for you, it's like you're looking for the the feeling. The feeling. It's like which is coming through the soul of the person. And whatever that takes form in is is less important to you.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And and so even though you haven't been in a situation to fall in love with a trans person, that's like it's not out of the realm of possibility given how you fell in love with me.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Like, I don't I so that's that's why it's funny that I'm like, okay, I feel like I would be one of those commenters that's like, hey, I am bi and I also get this. I don't understand from my own experience because I don't personally have that mental that need or you know, those preferences. But I also respect the same way that when I met you and you you didn't know I was bi yet, and you literally told me, like, oh, I would never date a bi girl. And I'm like, oh, okay, well, nah, I guess she's never gonna like me then. You know, but I'm not gonna get mad at you. Like, I can't be like, what's wrong with like I can't, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:How can you argue with that? I people are allowed. I'm just like, I just think it's human nature for people to have preferences and then to like try to shame them to not have preferences. I just don't understand that. Like for me, it's very common sense, and but I think it with the internet, we just we love to police people for their preferences, beliefs, ideas, everything. Do you know what I mean? And to me, that just like is mind-blowing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's the internet, and I also think that it's kind of like culture.
Speaker 1:It's like it's also like liberal culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah. People are bolder on the internet for sure. Yeah. Most of the time, you know, they're more likely to be able to say say it with their whole chest in a comment, you know, than to your face. If we were having this conversation face to face, maybe somebody wouldn't say the same thing. But I think I mean, we could almost like wrap this episode up right now because this is kind of the point, is that it's like there's a huge difference of us saying, okay, we have this business, for instance, this podcast. We really wanted it to be only queer people working on this podcast, and it is, you know, we love Lex, obviously. And she's a little queer icon in our eyes.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:If Lex was trans and we said, ooh, sorry, like we only want lesbians working on this, or like we only want this type of you know, that is discrimination. Yes. You're discriminating, you're not hiring someone because of their sexual preference is very different than being forced to prove your allyship or support for any type of group of people through sex or even romance.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But I think that's totally it's that's where like I don't understand.
Speaker 2:I don't understand why people think those two things are the same. You know, it's like I can support, love, fight for the rights of trans people, and also choose not to date them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If that's just not what you're interested in. What I'm interested in for whatever reason.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I don't think the reason matters. And I think some people like, and I think we'll get into this with the comments. Some people really think the reason matters. I don't necessarily think the reason matters around like why you would or would not change. To be intimate with somebody.
Speaker 2:Okay. This is a comment that directly responds to that. You're allowed to have preferences, and people are still allowed to question where those preferences come from because shockingly enough, no taste or preference exists in a limbo. I think it's supposed to say in a vacuum. I'm assuming limbo was a typo. As a society, we need to constantly question why we do things, why we do the things that we do, and why we like the things that we like. And sometimes the reason for our actions and preferences can be a kind of prejudice since we're a product of our reality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with like questioning your your like your own internal like reasons. I don't think we need to police other people though. Correct. Personally. And for me, it's like, I was thinking about this, I'm like, I don't know. Okay, what if I'm like really into feet or really not into feet fetish things, you know? Like either way, it doesn't to me, it's like the reasoning behind why I'm really into feet or really not into feet, I don't think really matters. It's just that's what my preference is.
Speaker 2:I don't see, I don't know if I agree with that. Well, I don't know about like the feed example, but if when we're talking about this, so first of all, the reason I chose that comment is I thought it was articulated really well. Like that's a perfect example of somebody disagreeing, but doing it super respectfully. Respectfully and very articulate. And, you know, because there was a lot of comments that would just be like, you're ugly, you know, or just like something, it's like, okay, this is not you're a horrible person, not productive. But this is like, okay, this is said really well and makes you think. So I really liked this comment for that. And it's like, and I do, I actually agree with it. But maybe that's again, just my it's not even just about queerness, but it's like that's how my mind works. I'm always wanting to go to the why, but the why, the what like keep going underneath it and like understanding things more and more and more. Whereas I feel like your nature is more just like take it on the surface almost, or you're like, yeah, that's just the way it is. And I'm like, but why?
Speaker 1:Because not everything needs to have a reason. Yeah. In my opinion. Exactly.
Speaker 2:That's and I just I love to play soccer.
Speaker 1:Do I have to have a reason around like this is why this is the sport that I love? Like, it's just like, why can't you just either like or dis not like something without there having to be this like deeper underlying meaning that then ties to whether you're a good or a bad person, and therefore like whether you should be allowed to be in society. Because that's what people are trying to do to you on the internet constantly. And I just cannot get behind this like cancel culture around everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but so this comment I didn't think was cancel cultural at all. That's what I mean. Like this comment was the opposite of that because it's just something to like make you think about it in a more productive way. And that I do agree that there is a value in knowing the why behind things. Yeah. I do agree that if you're like, oh, I have these strong preferences, I I agree that it's kind of worth looking at. Well, why? Why don't I want to date a this person, a that person, a blonde person, a redhead, a whatever it may be. And underneath that, there might be a prejudice, like this person is saying. And also, I don't think you need to prove your lack of prejudice or or discrimination through a sexual act.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:Specifically, it's like if you agree.
Speaker 1:It doesn't just because I'm willing to sleep with somebody or doesn't make me less racist, homophobic, transphobic, whatever. Like, and like you're saying, like we don't need to date and have sex with every type of person to prove our goodness, to prove our goodness and to show that we're supporting all of these types of communities. For me, it just feels very much like I guess why I hate it is kind of like um is like whatever happened to my body, my choice. Like liberal women, especially are like love to to to use that of like my body, my choice. I should be able to make the decisions and have autonomy over my myself, my physical body, and therefore, in my opinion, like who we're intimate with.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I shouldn't have to explain that to anyone or have to like use my body to prove that I'm a good person or prove anything. Prove anything. Right. And it just feels like to me, like so hypocritical, almost regressive. Yes.
Speaker 2:And contradictory. And there were a lot of people in the comments that were kind of reflecting that same thing, and that were, I would say they were predominantly lesbians, you know, of saying, like, why do we even have to explain our preferences? We shouldn't. We shouldn't have to explain our preferences, and that that is very true.
Speaker 1:It's like I somebody wrote, and I really agreed with this. Is like I could go on a date and for any reason get up and leave in the middle of the date, and I don't need to explain that to any for to anyone for any reason. Like, it could be for any possible things. Like the way they breathed was weird, or like they're like they're yeah, I got thick. I didn't like their hair color. Like, I don't know. It could be anything. We don't have to prove ourselves in intimate relationships to like show that we're good people.
Speaker 2:Yes. And that is very there is misogyny under that, you know, where it's like the expectation of women in society is to make other people feel comfortable. And usually as a default, we need to like become smaller, be quieter, have the smile, and make sure that even the person with bad breath that you're getting the ick from on the date doesn't have their their feelings hurt, especially if they're a man, especially if you're dating a man. You don't want to hurt his feelings because then you'll be labeled a bitch. You'll be, you know, you're labeled crazy or labeled all of these things. And it's like, of course, you don't have to be rude. You don't have to say, you smell like shit. That's why I'm leaving this date. Like get a toothbrush. You know, you don't have to be that's disrespectful. You don't have to be rude. But yes, you are allowed at any time to get up from the date and leave. The same way that when we're talking about rape culture, you know, it's like when we're talking about consent, at any point, even if at one point in the middle of the hookup, you decide you don't want to engage anymore, that doesn't mean just because you said yes before that it's okay to keep proceeding.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You continually have the right to say no, yeah, to walk away.
Speaker 1:For any reason.
Speaker 2:For any reason. And also are like hopefully doing that respectfully.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Obviously, if you need to be defensive or if you have to be rude to get your point across because someone is an aggressor at you, that's a different situation. But like, let's just assume everyone is nice and polite. It's like, yeah, just engage normally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to me, I just it just feels like that's very common sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, but there I think there is right now more than ever, maybe not more than ever, at least in our lifetime that I've seen there's this deep fear and need of people, particularly people who I would say are liberal or identify as liberal, it's like to want to be seen as a good person and want to like do things the right way. And obviously, there's like a reason behind being politically correct and being respectful and and learning the way that like certain words are not okay. Anyway, it's like, yes, like staying on top of these things, there's a reason behind that, and that's important. But when it gets to the point that it's like, well, you have to prove that you are a good person, that you're not discriminatory, that you're open to everyone, in a way that your body is literally telling you that that's a no. If your body is saying, no, I don't want this, but you're overriding that to prove to society and the world that you're not a TERF, that's a problem. For sure. It's like you can be a good person and also say no to any person, whether it's a trans person, a biperson, a straight person. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And well, what about the people who are like, but why do you have to say it out loud? Because there was a lot of people who commented, like, yeah, you can have those preferences and like you can do whatever you want with your body, but like, why do you have to say these things out loud?
Speaker 2:Which in some ways I agree with. There, we didn't need to make a reel about that. No. You know, like that, it was really just trying to go deeper into the conversation that was the episode that week. Which I guess some if this is just popping up on your feed and you don't know who we are and what we are and what the episode of the week is, then you're probably like, why the fuck are you saying this?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I get that. We you we didn't need to make that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But in some ways, though, it's like it is giving voice to like I'll just speak from the lesbian perspective. It's like there are a lot of lesbians out there who are like, why can't I say that I don't want to date a by girl? Like, there's nothing wrong with me saying that. I want to date other lesbians for whatever reason, maybe because just like experientially wise, like that, you know, we have more shared experiences and I feel more connected, or whatever the reason is. You know, I went into like a lot of the reasons why in our previous episode, like why that was my preference. But like I think a lot of lesbians out there are like, why can't I like they they really related to that? Like it's actually nice to hear somebody say that because in today's day and age where we are trying to be more and more inclusive, which I think is a good thing. It in being more inclusive, we also don't let people have preferences because then that makes people people feel excluded when that's not the goal.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and that was the thing too. Someone said, like, you know, because in the text that I had written, it said that doesn't mean you're exclusionary or discriminatory. And someone's like, that's literally the definition of excluding. You are excluding, and it's like, okay, that's true. Like, but you, in my opinion, you don't need to be inclusive when it comes to your body sexually.
Speaker 1:Agree.
Speaker 2:You don't need to be inclusive. You are allowed to say no for any reason. We're gonna say that so many times. Yes. It but it's like, so it's like, yes, I guess you are technically excluding someone. But if you're excluding someone sexually, that's not the same thing as excluding them from society, from saying having the same rights as you rights, saying you can't come to this lesbian party. That that's not the same. No, that's not the same at all. But you are allowed to say, sure, come to the lesbian party, like let's have a moment in the bathroom with like swap and lip gloss and like be all cute. I also don't want to make out with you. You know, it's like I also just don't like you in that way. And that's okay. And that's okay. Yeah, okay. Preferences are, this is another comment. Preferences are liking black hair over blonde, higher pitched voices over lower, not a person's sexuality. Why? Because it has zero effect on you. It's invisible, it's literally redundant unless the person is Polly. Because regardless of whether your partner is a lesbian, bi or pan, she's in the same sex relationship with you. So what the heck is y'all's problem with bi women? What makes them so different to be a by woman? Thoughts?
Speaker 1:I mean, we did a whole episode on this essentially. On the by women part, on the by women piece, you know, and like I think a lot of people, a lot of people said this of like, oh, I actually understand having a preference to not date trans people, but I don't understand why you have a preference to not date by women. And like I said, there's we did a whole episode on this, basically like all the myths and all the reasons why people don't want to date by by women. Talking about jig portals. Yeah, it's like for some people, it could literally be because yeah, they they feel like there's like inadvertently a man entering their bedroom because you slept with men previously. That could be like a reason for someone. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I understand why people like might have that feeling. Or it could just be about like having shared experiences, or maybe they think that like eventually you're gonna end up with a man anyways because it's easier for you to have children with them or whatever.
Speaker 2:It could also be it could also be somebody who, and this happens in all relationships, gaze, straight, whatever. You have a bad experience with a certain type of person. Like let's say you dated a basketball player, you know, who was a dude, and you're like, I'm never dating an athlete again.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like we kind of never dating a Gemini again.
Speaker 2:Yes, you did that too.
Speaker 1:Ever. That was another one of my rules. Yeah. I'm not breaking that rule.
Speaker 2:I didn't break that. But um, but yeah, it's like we do that in relationships anyway. So it's like Again, it's like it's human nature, it's human nature, and and you could also only be limiting yourself because your person might be your Gemini.
Speaker 1:100%.
Speaker 2:But the thing that I thought was funny about this comment is saying, like, these are the things you're allowed to have preference. And this was, you know, there are many comments similar to this, but with different examples. You can have preferences around X, Y, and Z, but you can't have preferences around this.
Speaker 1:Yes, there's like societally acceptable preferences that you can have and ones that are not societally acceptable.
Speaker 2:The funny thing was is, and I actually appreciated that this person gave the why because most people didn't. They would just say, these are things you can do, these are things you can't do, and now you're a turf. They didn't give, it's like, but why? Why is there, you know, these things? And so this person gave the why, and their why is a person's sexuality has zero effect on you. It's invisible. And and then went on to say, unless the person is poly. So then there's always that, unless, then it's okay for you to, you know, not like them. It's like there's always gonna be, and that's because that's this person's personal preference, I'm assuming.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But also it's like that argument doesn't make do you know how many things are invisible that are that's literally people's personalities are invisible, mental health is invisible. And you can also have a preference of I don't want to date someone with depression. I don't want to date somebody who has X disorder, who has whatever. You are allowed to have that preference. I don't want to be with a foot fetishist. Exactly.
Speaker 1:Not into it. But these could be for any reason.
Speaker 2:For eight. You could just be like, I don't want to be with someone who's a night owl. You know what I mean? Like that's invisible. That these these every part of your personality is technically invisible. It shows up through the way that we act and our characteristics, but it's like these are all invisible traits. That's how we decide our mates. 100%.
Speaker 1:Literally, when we when we're deciding who to date, it's like, you know, someone's physical appearance is one piece of it, but so much more of it is like, do we have shared values? Like, does this person have integrity? Are they on it? Like, are do they have the same goals in life as me? Do they want to raise a family in the same way as me? Do they want a family at all? It's like all of these things, and it's like so funny that uh the way that people decide what you're allowed to have a preference on versus not.
Speaker 2:But and also just that argument, and maybe to me it makes even less sense because, like I said, the physical components of people actually bother me the least. Whereas like the invisible stuff that they're talking about. So as I said, I never thought I was gonna end up with a woman. You showed up in a different packaging than I was expecting. But I'm like, but I'm so in love with you. I know you're my person. I don't care what you look like, what the body parts are, whatever. Literally, the part that I cared more about that literally my friends were more concerned about was what about you?
Speaker 1:That I had a corporate job. Yeah.
Speaker 2:They're like, What? Are you gonna be okay? Like nobody cared that you were a woman.
Speaker 1:They're like, How are you going to like live in San Francisco and be with somebody who has a corporate job?
Speaker 2:Because my lifestyle was so different than that at the time, you know?
Speaker 1:And yeah, and those are things And you could have chosen to not date me because of those things.
Speaker 2:It was, and it was a worry, you know? But I mean, obviously part of the reason was I knew your personality, you know, but in kind of like creating my dream partner and all the manifestation exercises I did before I met you, I never was like, oh, they're gonna, I never thought I could connect on a spiritual level with someone with a corporate job. Because in my experience before, I never had, particularly corporate America. I also never thought I was gonna end up with an American. Yeah. I hadn't dated an American in years at that point. So like these are things that it was like, oh yeah, like that's just because my experience with like these groups of people has been maybe not even just negative, but it's like I haven't been able to like go there with them. So like we're just not ever gonna get each other in the way that I need to be gotten.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you were those things, and it's like, oh, turns out that doesn't actually matter. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But also it's like kind of talking about like the socially acceptable kind of preferences of like, oh, I'm into brunette, you know. I'm I'm really like, I don't really date blondes, to be honest. Like, I've it's not really I've never really dated a blonde. I've always been into brunettes.
Speaker 2:That's by the way, I had blonde hair when we met.
Speaker 1:That's socially acceptable for me to say, or for me to say, yeah, like I'm into FEMS. Like that's what I like today, you know?
Speaker 2:Yes. So I want to talk about that because this was another in the same vein where people are saying you are allowed to have preferences over this, but not that. Other comments were saying the same examples. You can say you like hair colors, voice pit, whatever, but you cannot use identity markers as a preference. Otherwise, that is discrimination. And I'm like, hold on, hold on.
Speaker 1:It is we do this all the time.
Speaker 2:It is the gayest thing ever. The first thing we do is like, what's your type? Or are you femme for femme? Do you like masks? Are you like what type of lesbians? We have so many labels within labels within labels in this community.
Speaker 1:And that's like are you into butch girls? Are you in the gay world? It's like, are you into daddies? Like, it's like we literally need to know your type, which is and it's totally socially accessible.
Speaker 2:But totally, no one, if you met a butch person and or a mask, whoever, and you're like, sorry, like I'm only into femmes, they'd be like, totally get it. No problem, no one would care. Yeah, literally.
Speaker 1:The first thing I asked our producer Lex was literally, what's your type? Lex, I want to know. She's like, Oh, I'm femme for femme. I'm like, awesome. I'm not offended. Sorry, like Lex, I wish you. You're married.
Speaker 2:What are you talking about?
Speaker 1:Wish you were into me, Lex, but like you're femme for femme. Like, no, it's like you're not gonna be offended by that. Right. It's just what you're into. It's like what you like. I don't know. Like, and it's it's like fun to discover what somebody's into.
Speaker 2:It's also something that, you know, just thinking about like how we re-watched the new L-word reboot and when Carrie meets Misty and they're both pretty butch, you know, and neither of them had ever fallen for a butch person or somebody that was like more like them. And that happens too. Like, we've seen it on the ultimate, we see it in these scenarios, and that's why I said love is blind would be so good for queers.
Speaker 1:So good.
Speaker 2:But it's also like you're able to have this conversation where you see people be like, I've just never like been with a butch person before. I've not it, and it's like totally acceptable conversation to have where they're like, okay, got it, because those identity markers oftentimes come with certain personality traits, behaviors, roles that you lean into. So it's like, okay, so many things. There's so and people navigate it together, and it's not this topic of like, wow, you're so discriminatory. You're such a I don't know what the version of turf would be for like not dating butch people, but you know, like you aren't name-called something for that. It's just something you talk about. Yeah, it's very accepted. A new relationship and like work through it. And it's like, why? And and I think too, like, let's say you fell for a trans person and you didn't think that that was going to happen for you the same way that I married a woman and I thought I was gonna marry a man. You know, it's like you should be able to have those conversations, like, hey, I just I've never been with a trans person, or like there's it will change the the relationship dynamic, not because that person is less than a woman. It's not about less or more or equal, but they're that's a different type of relationship for even just like sexually, you know, and and their preferences sexually and there like there's so many moving parts to it. And it's like you should be able to have that conversation the same with any relationship so that you can have a good one. Yeah, definitely, or not have one at all. Okay. What I wanna do one more comment. I'm gonna find a good one. Oh, this came up a lot. This is kind of like a two-parter. Have you ever noticed gay men do not have to justify not wanting to date people with vaginas or bi men? It's only women coming for other women. Internalized misogyny. Not wanting to date outside of your literal sexual orientation isn't bigotry. And stop calling genitalia a preference. Sexual orientation isn't a preference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I literally don't ever see gay guys ever have to justify any anything. Anything, anything, pure male privilege of like not having to like explain yourself. It's amazing. But I this isn't like a topic that I see them having to navigate the way that like the female queer community has to navigate.
Speaker 2:Yes. And I don't know if that's we were talking about it last night. I was like, is it also just because by nature, a lot of men, let's say this post came across their feed, they would just keep scrolling and be like, whatever, stupid. Like, even if they disagree, even it's almost like they just tend to like not engage as much, not just online, but also in person. Or is it like they just don't care, or they're like, okay, you have a different opinion.
Speaker 1:I think that they're first of all, they're less offended in general.
Speaker 2:You're right.
Speaker 1:Like, I think like gay male community, like the sense of humor, everything is a little bit more brash and harsh. Yeah, that's and they don't take things as personally.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and so I think they're just kind of like, yeah, whatever your preference is, like, who cares? They I don't think that they take things so personally the way women do.
Speaker 2:Well, and not only that, but again, it's like the expectation of women is to make other people feel comfortable. And is to, you know, so it's like, I think that's why we constantly overexplain ourselves.
Speaker 1:I also feel like the the gay men don't feel the need to prove themselves in any way.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm that's what I mean. Like they don't, they're not, they're like, whatever. If you think I'm this, then you think that's what you think I am. I don't care. I know who I am, and that's enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I'm not gonna try to prove anything other than that, especially through an unwanted sex act. Like, that's just they just That's ridiculous. These thoughts wouldn't, I don't even feel like go through their head. No. And that is misogyny. Like, that's what this person is saying. Like, you and and in that same vein. So this is the two-parter, because this was another thing that came up a lot. So if straight men say that they don't want to date a bi woman, that's biphobic. But if a lesbian says it, then it's a preference, make it make sense. So this is something that came up a lot. I guess I also wasn't aware that this is a conversation around straight men. I've never met a straight man that's been like, ew, buy I only ever met straight dudes that think it's awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is they think they're gonna benefit in some way. Right.
Speaker 2:So it's like problematic in its own right. Okay. It's not like they're just like super allies. Yeah. But but I'm sure there are maybe perhaps like a really religious straight man or something, maybe wouldn't be okay with a queer woman in some way. Is that biphobic? Maybe by definition. Like maybe it is biphobic, but again, even as a straight man with the most privilege in the frickin' world, you are allowed to decide who you want to have sex with 100%. What you do with your body.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's biphobic at all.
Speaker 2:I think probably by definition it is.
Speaker 1:I think it could be, but I don't think if they have the preference to be with someone who's a straight woman, that that means that they're biphobic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't I guess I don't know. I other than the exact definition of like, you know, literally being fearful of by people, like that's the whole phobia thing. The same way that it's like, is it rooted in transphobia to say, I don't want to date a trans person? Maybe, like maybe that's where it stems from.
Speaker 1:I'd say maybe that doesn't mean that you're transphobic though, or biphobic way.
Speaker 2:Exactly, as a person. Yeah. And as it's because it's like the way that you act on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what your beliefs are. Like, do you believe that these people should have rights and equal treatment under the law? Like, yes, and that their existence is real and valid and all of these things. Like, I I think that's where I think of it more versus just like whether or not you have a preference to date them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, it's just, and I know I mean, I'm the first person to come for straight dudes, you know? Not the biggest fan. You know this. And I I still would say they're allowed to have preferences.
Speaker 1:100%. Everyone is allowed to have preferences.
Speaker 2:Everyone is.
Speaker 1:Even if you don't want them to have preferences, they're going to. Everyone does. That is human nature. Like we you cannot erase that from people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a good point as well, where it's like you can pretend all you want, but innately we have and trust me, like, I this is a literal problem for me. We were talking about this the other day, where I was like, if I, you know, we had this whole like weird friend thing that happened, and I'm like, yeah, but if I'm starting to get a weird vibe from someone, I immediately feel guilty for kind of even like criticizing that person in my head. If I'm just like, oh, I don't really like you or didn't, because then I'm like, oh, I'm judging them, I'm not being empathetic enough, I'm not, and it's like I then get upset at myself, even though I'm having these very clear indicators in my body telling me like, no, this person's weird or doing something untrustworthy. Like I'm appropriate. Inappropriate. And I'm overriding that because I'm like, don't want to be a bad person. I do that all the time. And it's not to do that.
Speaker 1:No, it's not healthy. It's human nature to have preferences that will never change. It will never change. Like you cannot, you know, we're not robots. You don't get to program yourself with the preferences that you want. That's just not how life works. And so I just I think trying to shame people for the preferences that they do have is just really wrong.
Speaker 2:I also think it's counterproductive, you know, which like you said, it's like we see a lot in extremely that kind of like extreme version of liberal culture. And as somebody, I was a vegan for 10 years. Okay. It reminds me so much of being vegan. And I was told, I was never, I was never one of these kinds of vegans where, you know, the people that are like, you go, you all go out to eat and you order the steak, and they're like, do you know? And they go into the full like murder story of what how you got that steak on your plate. And they're just like shaming you for your choices. I have never seen that work for someone to be like, you know what? You're actually, I'm not gonna eat this steak now. If anything, usually the opposite. People dig their heels in more. They're like, oh, you mean this steak? They're like eating it in front of them, all nasty, like trying to upset them more because they're like, you just came for me so hard, and I'm just like existing. And I would see this all the time in vegan culture. And I was like, okay, I never want to be like that. Like, I'm just gonna order in peace and everybody does their own thing. I'm just gonna lead by example.
Speaker 1:If you want to eat, it's all good.
Speaker 2:And and let people come to you. Like, if you just lead by the example that you think is right and like in integrity in the world, and you appear to be like a kind, balanced. People will be attracted to interested in that. And they'll ask you, and they'll be like, Oh, why did you order this instead of that? And I'm like, Oh, yeah, I'm actually vegan. And then they come to you, they ask you, and you can have a way more productive conversation. And if your entire incentive is to like change someone's mind into also being vegan or also, you know, being more liberal or whatever it is, then it's like that is the way to do it versus somebody says something you disagree with and immediately pointing at them and telling them they are this phobic, that phobic, a bigot, a turf, like immediately name calling them these things that are supposed to be like the worst kind of words in a society. That's it just shuts down the conversation right away.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You're like, cool, all right. I glad you think so highly of me.
Speaker 2:And yeah, it's just like, oh, okay, we can't have a discussion, obviously, because you're up here and I'm down here.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so it's like if your real incentive is to change people and try to like open this dialogue or try to bring people over to your side of thinking, how are you ever gonna do that with this kind of approach?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, just we don't need to police people in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So yeah, that's, I mean, that's where we stand on it. Everybody is allowed to have preferences.
Speaker 1:I think we're we're clear on where we stand, right?
Speaker 2:And we're queer.
Speaker 1:Yes. Well, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:We're clear, we're queer, and we still want to hear from you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And genuinely, like challenging.
Speaker 1:Challenge what people think.
Speaker 2:Disagree with us. I love that. I love the comments.
Speaker 1:Yeah, challenge comments were like actually really well written and made you made you think which I love that.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And it though it's not just for us. Like I said, other people are in the comments and other people are engaging with us. So it's also like that's your opportunity to try to open or change someone else's mind or like give concrete examples as to why. But I just think above all else, it's like if you I it's like listen to those feelings in your body. If your body is telling you it's a no dog, listen to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Alright. Who's the problem this week?
Speaker 1:Am I going first?
Speaker 2:You're going first.
Speaker 1:Okay. So we all saw the news that the queer ultimatum got cancelled. RIP. Which is pretty devastating. I mean, we were just talking about it.
Speaker 2:It's like we had a whole episode on this before it got cancelled. And we talked about it then. We said this.
Speaker 1:It's one of the, you know, only queer dating shows. We're really hoping that there's a queer love is blind, but you know, it had its flaws, of course, but it was a great TV show and has performed really well as well. And I want to know if the problem is like the network? Is it the network or is it the queer community hating on the show so much that got it canceled? Whose fault is it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would be, I don't know what the numbers are. So I don't know.
Speaker 1:I just know the season one numbers like were amazing. So I don't know how season two did.
Speaker 2:And I know typically that's why shows get canceled because all they really care about are numbers because that's money. So I would assume the numbers were lower than the straight version if they didn't cancel the straight version. I would have to assume that. If that's true, I don't know. But like we said in our original episode when we went over the queer ultimatum, we're like, come on. Like we again, this is like culturally part of queers, is we want perfection instead of progress. The show itself, the premise of the show, flawed, totally ridiculous. Like, but so many, especially dating reality shows are they are meant to almost be ridiculous. But that doesn't mean that you should boycott it because we need to see these perfect versions of queer love in order to appreciate the show.
Speaker 1:And personally, like so many queers that I know, they watched season one and didn't watch season two. And I'm like, Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then now you're mad that it's canceled, but you didn't freaking watch it. I know. I saw that too. Like so many people that were critical, like, don't watch this show, it's so toxic. And then when it got canceled, they're like, Netflix is so homophobic. And it's like, but you literally didn't watch it. You told other people not to watch it. That is direct, that's why they cancel it, is because of numbers. Yes. Consumers, we are the ones in power here.
Speaker 1:And Netflix is probably like, hey queers, we're trying to throw you a freaking bone, and now you're like attacking us and not supporting the show. Like, you how are we supposed to help you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. We yeah, I mean we we know what happened there. And I hope we get a new reality show. Okay, so my who's the problem, we just did some travel and a few times there were people who had either like babies or really young toddlers in first class, and I saw some other people like not too happy about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So who do you think the pro like, do you think people should be? I know they are allowed to, because if you have the money to buy the ticket for a two-year-old, ball out, you know, go for it. Or do you think that people in first class have the right to that kind of like first class experience?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is like this was on like international flights, so really long flights. This is like full lay-down experience, right? You know, I'm torn a little bit. Like, I'll give you my my real opinion is like personally, because we don't have kids, I hate it. Like, I hate when there's Oh, I didn't care at all. They were the kids were perfect. No, they weren't. Yes, they didn't. Not always. And I've been in the situation where they're not, and it's just like, no, no. The one that was literally right next to me was jumping up and down screaming for a very long time. So personally, because I don't have kids, I'm like, I I hate it. But also I know that we're gonna do this when we have kids because we want to be able to sleep, and also for the kid to be able to sleep, so I get it, but like when you don't have kids or you're traveling without kids, it definitely sucks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just think I care more about discrimination of dogs on planes and kids, you know? It's like let dogs fly. That's that's my whole focus. No, but I don't know. I'm just like, you can't, you can't, it doesn't matter. Like, that's just a risk that you know that children are allowed in first class. The same it's so you can't control that. And if you want to control that, then save your pennies and fly private, you know? I don't it's like that's the only way to be gave it.
Speaker 1:Of course they're allowed. But I will say, when you are seated next to them, it it's annoying.
Speaker 2:But there's and you're like I don't know why the expectation is different in business versus economy, where it's like you could always end up next to a kid. I know, you know, so it's just like, yeah, it sucks because you spent more on your ticket, but like that was your choice. Yeah. I don't know. I think I don't think that the kids are the problem, but that's just me.
Speaker 1:Well, the parents are the problem. Well, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, no. All right, let us know. Vote on the Spotify in the YouTube comments. We love you guys.
Speaker 1:Can't wait to hear the feedback.
Speaker 2:Yes, we will see you next week.
Speaker 1:See you next week.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to the show. We're so happy to have you here. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you're listening to podcasts. We love getting commentary from you on Spotify and on YouTube. And as always, if you love this episode or any of our episodes, make sure to share it with a friend or somebody who will appreciate the conversation.
Speaker 1:And make sure to follow us on all their socials at Wives Not Sisters Pod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Thanks, guys. See you next week.