Wives Not Sisters
A playful, unfiltered podcast where a married wlw couple dives into the chaos of modern relationships, pop culture, queer lore, and all the little things most people wouldn’t admit out loud.
Wives Not Sisters is a queer-led podcast where marriage meets humor, honesty, and a little too much sharing but in the best way. We’re here to normalize nuance in relationships -- from romantic, platonic, familial, and everything in between- and to create a space where deep conversations and dumb jokes can coexist. Through real talk, playful debates, and just enough oversharing, we’re building a community that’s reflective, ridiculous, and radically relatable.
Wives Not Sisters
WLW Lore: Caroline Calloway
Alix and Kayla dive deep into the wild, chaotic, endlessly fascinating lore of Caroline Calloway — from Instagram fame and ghostwritten captions to book-deal drama, retreat controversies, and the blurred lines between “scam,” self-mythology, and survival. The wives break down the friendship between Caroline and Natalie Beach, the homoerotic tension, the internet cancellation, the workshops, the snake-oil era, and why queer audiences are obsessed with this story.
If you love scammers, internet culture, WLW lore, or messy influencer history, this episode is for you.
00:00 – Intro: Reviews, comments & community love
01:30 – Who is Caroline Calloway?
01:50 – Scam or Stan game (NFTs, Erewhon smoothies, retreats, astrology apps)
04:50 – Breakup brands, viral masterclasses & influencer culture
10:00 – Why Caroline’s story is “entertaining, not dangerous”
11:00 – The WLW lore + homoerotic friendship dynamic
18:00 – How Caroline built her Cambridge-era Instagram persona
21:00 – Natalie ghostwrites captions & the early partnership
28:20 – The $500K book deal & $100K advance
30:30 – Addiction, missed deadlines & the fallout
34:20 – Whose side are you on?
35:20 – The infamous “workshops”
37:00 – Is it a scam if people willingly pay?
38:20 – The cancellations & venue chaos
42:30 – Snake oil, villain era & Caroline’s pivot
43:40 – “I Was Caroline Calloway” & Natalie’s takedown essay
48:40 – Natalie’s book deal + riding coattails
49:55 – Caroline’s tragic family news amid cancellation
53:45 – Obsession, shamelessness & survival mode
54:40 – New York era, OnlyFans, and rising again
#CarolineCalloway #ScamOrStan #InfluencerCulture #NatalieBeach #InternetDrama #Podcast #QueerPodcast #WLWLore #MessyInfluencers #BookDealDrama #CarlowayLore #OnlineScams #InternetHistory #WomenWhoWrite #CouplePodcast #AlixAndKayla
Connect with us on social media: IG: @wivesnotsisterspod | TikTok: @wivesnotsisterspod | Youtube: @wivesnotsisterspod
Follow our hosts on Instagram: @kaylalanielsen @alix_tucker
You can also watch our episodes on Youtube at youtube.com/@wivesnotsisterspod!
Hey guys, it's Alix and Kayla. And we're married, not related, definitely codependent.
Speaker 2:But in a cute way. And we're back. We are here. We're queer. I always hit the mic with my hand.
unknown:Knock it off. What are you doing?
Speaker 2:Don't yell at me. No. So yeah, I know it's your turn to lead. Yes. But you know that I always like to just give a little thank you to everybody who comments, who reviews, who engages. Because that is, I feel like it's what keeps it alive, you know? Otherwise, we're just sitting in our living room talking shit.
unknown:Yeah, there's been so many comments.
Speaker 2:So many comments. And we love reading them. We love reading the reviews and seeing also, it's like the comments on Spotify. Remember, I told you didn't even know that that was a thing. I looked at them though. Did you reply to any?
unknown:I didn't.
Speaker 2:I replied to some comments on YouTube. Because sometimes you'll be like, oh my gosh, look at this comment. It's so cute. And I'm like, say something back to them. And you're like, I'm scared. I don't know what to say.
unknown:I love the person who told us what the meaning of Stan was. Like, where did that come from? Because I had no idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. See? We're getting educated. We're learning things. We love you guys. Yeah. But keep doing that. And share this episode with somebody who loves scammers because that's what we're talking about today.
unknown:Caroline Calloway.
Speaker 2:If you love a good scam, then you'll love this episode.
unknown:I know. But before, I know you have a little we have a little game and it's kind of Caroline themed. Caroline Coded, honey. Oh. Caroline Coded. Called scam. Oh. Scam or Stan. Okay. So are you ready?
Speaker 2:So this one is for the commenter who told us what Stan means.
unknown:That's right. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for you. Okay, honey. So you scam or stan for NFT art. It's just that. Isn't it another option? Like, do you think NFT art is a scam? Or do you like Stan for it?
Speaker 2:A scam.
unknown:Yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 2:I I mean, and I know that before we got on the mic, you're like, do you even know what an NFT art is? And I was like, Yeah, it's like what Paris Hilton does. And you were like, But do you know what it is? All I know is that it has to do with crypto and people that talk about like the metaverse and you so you have no idea what this is. Essentially, she has no clue. I know it's expensive, and that's why it's a scam. It's not even worth knowing. Like, what is the definition?
unknown:What does NFT even stand for? I that I don't know, but I from my understanding of what NFT art is, it's like think of like a a famous piece of art. Yeah. Right? Like the Mona Lisa or whatever. It's like digitized. Now it's digitized, and you own like you can buy like a portion of the digitized.
Speaker 2:People will be like, I have an NFT rhino, and I'm like, okay.
unknown:I don't know what that means.
Speaker 2:Like a little rhino. I don't know. Like they they have these like weird animals and stuff.
unknown:I don't get it. Exactly. I think it's a scam for sure.
Speaker 2:Okay.
unknown:Okay. What about $20 errowan smoothies?
Speaker 2:Oh, you know I'm a sucker for a good smoothie. Like it is technically a scam, but it depends on the smoothie, and I might be an investor. You mean a stan? What's in between a scam and a stan? An investor.
unknown:I'm a scam.
Speaker 1:Okay.
unknown:Uh influencer writing retreats.
Speaker 2:Oh, that is Caroline coded, and you don't even know. I have no idea. It depends on the influencer. If it's Caroline's scam, if it's mine, then it's not a scam. Okay, guys. Who's planting that seed right now?
unknown:Yeah, I think it depends on the person. Definitely depends on the person. Yeah. Okay. Astrology apps, like CoStar.
Speaker 2:I mean, again, I would be an investor if I could. But yeah, that's that was one of our bonding moments when we first got together.
unknown:I mean, are you even gay if you haven't bonded over CoStar?
Speaker 2:Like every gay person is just like yelling into their phone right now. Like, what do you mean? Scam.
unknown:I saw, I saw some meme online. It was like a text to a mom, and it was like, Mom, can you let me know what my birthday is and my birth time? And and the mom was like, leave that date immediately. It was her son that had texted her.
Speaker 2:Leave the date immediately. Horrible advice, mom. Horrible advice. Okay. Emotional support water bottles. Oh, not a scam at all. What do you mean?
unknown:I carry mine with me wherever I go.
Speaker 2:But I also lose mine a lot.
unknown:Thank you, Yeti. You know. Um, friends who forget their wallet. Forget their wallet. Scam.
Speaker 2:We've definitely known a few of those.
unknown:Also, it's like we You have Apple Pay and stuff now.
Speaker 2:There's literally no excuse anymore. And even if you forget it, you can Venmo them out. Like there's so many options now. That's right.
unknown:Okay. I don't really know where why this is on here, but hard launch apology essays. Well. This is leading into Caroline Calloway?
Speaker 2:Yes, but also who okay? Let's say it's not an essay, but just the breakup video. Like that apol, it's all in the same vein.
unknown:Oh, like the Instagram post.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the it's like the like PR statement, just like black screen, white writing. You know? So it's like a scam in the sense your PR wrote that, you didn't. Scam. But also like, thank you for the entertainment. We love.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
unknown:Scam. Yeah, that was like when when uh Janae and Kenny had their whole breakup. Yeah. And Kenny's apology didn't cut it. Scammer. Okay. Manifestation coaches who charge $2,000 for a weekend retreat.
Speaker 2:I just threw up in my mouth. It's a big fat scam. It's very triggering right now.
unknown:Okay. What about a masterclass on how to go viral? Scam.
Speaker 2:Scam. You guys do not buy this. Don't do it. Don't like there is strategy, of course, in social media, but when people are making these like big promises, huge red flag.
unknown:Or like growing your account on Instagram or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's just like, no, no, no. No, no, no.
unknown:Okay. What about building a brand around your breakup? Is that do people do that?
Speaker 2:I mean, to me, that is Shannon Beverage Coded. It's less about the break. It's like her breakup, her whole lore. It's her brand is around relationships, which includes many breakups and breakup videos.
unknown:I kinda love this, to be honest.
Speaker 2:You love a breakup brand?
unknown:I mean, yeah, kind of. I love to watch it.
Speaker 2:Do you want to start one?
unknown:No, no, I love watching it happen.
Speaker 2:Of course, yeah. As a consumer, that's it's entertaining and dramatic. And it's yeah, I like to watch it, but then it is dark if you think about it. It's like I guess it's only a scam if you never really liked the person and you just dated them for clout to have the drama of the breakup.
unknown:What about getting a book deal before you've written anything?
Speaker 2:I mean, sounds like a dream, honestly. But as you'll see, scam.
unknown:I don't think that's a scam.
Speaker 2:Before you've written anything, yes, you have to write sample chapters.
unknown:Traditionally, I'm sure lots of celebrities get book deals before they write it.
Speaker 2:Celebrities, yes, that's different. They get pitched because they're not actually writing it. They're then hiring a ghostwriter.
unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So they don't have to, they're not really responsible for anything other than like sitting down and telling their story to the ghostwriter. But just like your average person or an influencer, yeah, you have to submit a book deal with sample chapters and everything. It can't just be like, look at my Instagram captions.
unknown:Yeah, unless you have some like really interesting story and you're getting sought out. Which I'm like, it's great. If you're being sought out, it's different. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, typically, typically it's like even if they seek you out, there's still going to be some vetting before you get an offer. Like they can seek you out and say, hey, we like your story. Let's go a little deeper. But before you get a real offer of real money, we gotta see some proof in the pudding, you know? Okay. Okay, so Caroline Callaway, you said that you don't think our listeners are gonna know who this is. I didn't know who she was. That doesn't mean anything.
unknown:Well, that literally means something.
Speaker 2:What?
unknown:I think there's gonna be people out there who don't know who she is as well.
Speaker 2:There, of course, there will be people who don't, but there also will be many. She is somebody who is almost on par with Anna Delvey. Like that level of skin, she will have a Netflix thing made about her.
unknown:I hope so. I mean, the thing is I didn't know who she was, but then once I started to learn about her, I gave you a little homework. Yeah, there's something so fascinating about this person that I don't know what it is. Like, what is it about scammers that like I get so interested. I know we you know, I think it's just like the mere audacity, yes, and zero shame, yeah, it's fascinating. The no shame, but yeah, so she's got a really fascinating story, and I don't know, I think we can all not necessarily relate to, but like really enjoy the story of a scammer.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think too, in this case, particularly, because her kind of like victims, you can't even call them a victim. You know what I mean? It's like okay, did she They're willing participants? They're willing participants if they've overpaid for certain, you know, there, but she's not a scammer to where it's like, well, you've actually like seriously hurt people or endangered anyone. So I think that's what also makes it entertaining. It's more entertaining than like, okay, that's dark. You know, like the housewife that was scamming all the old people, you know, and then like went to jail. Yeah, that's horrible. That's fraud and illegal. And also you're like preying on this really vulnerable community. It's not like that. So I think it's at least for me, it makes me able to enjoy it a little bit more. Yeah. You know? So people might not know that even if they've heard of Caroline Callaway, they might be like, why is this WLW lore? Because I had heard of her, I didn't know about the queer factor because that didn't come out until more recently when her book came out, when it finally came out.
unknown:So it has all the elements of a good story now. Yeah, now it's really queer juice in there as well.
Speaker 2:But because of that, we are really gonna focus on that, which is her relationship with Natalie Beach, which is a core component to her whole scam and the whole part of her lore. But I'm just saying that because there are so many other things that she's done that I'll just kind of like more briefly touch on, but we're gonna like really get into their relationship in particular because first of all, Caroline has come out as being bisexual. Natalie has not come out as anything. So this is there still are question marks around this of like, is the and you'll see as we get into it, but at the very least, there is this like homoerotic friendship happening that many queer people can relate to.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:You know, we've all been there. And even before there was the queer element of it, I think a lot of women, that part of the reason the story really caught fire, I think, is because even if it wasn't a queer story, there was just this element of this like frenemy girl situation. And I think like a lot of women could relate to that of either like, oh, I've had a friend like a Natalie or like a Caroline. You know, they like really you can really project yourself onto both of these, they're almost like characters. Yeah. And so it's also just that dynamic. Competing with each other a little bit, competing, and it's like you'll be able to you see that dynamic in in female friendships, you know? And then let alone if you're queer and had that kind of like homoerotic thing happening underneath where you're like, do I love them or am I in love with them? Do I want to kiss them or do I want to be them? And there's all of that kind of like confusion happening.
unknown:So it's a hard place to be. Have you ever been that place of confusion?
Speaker 2:Have you ever loved a straight girl?
unknown:Just you.
Speaker 2:What the fuck?
unknown:When I thought you were straight. That is the biggest insult. Before I knew that you were by, to me, you were straight, and I was really confused as to why I was attracted to you because I'm not attracted to straight women. So shouldn't you have known? I should have known, but I to me you were at the time, and then you weren't anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
unknown:Once you told me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I I don't think that I ever have like there's something that shifts in you, you know, like once you know someone is queer. And I know not everyone has that. Some queer people are more like they like the chase or like trying to turn people or try like that, the hardness of it. I can't really relate to that personally. But I I do know a lot of queer people, particularly with their first kind of like big crush or love, that maybe it was unrequited, especially if it was in a younger age where you're just kind of like figuring stuff out.
unknown:Yeah, like in high school. High school, they were in college. But are you bi? Because like again, how does that happen?
Speaker 2:There's like an opening in the energy for sure. If someone is available that way, yes, yeah. Okay, so what do you do you know about Natalie or do you only know about Caroline?
unknown:Well, I Google her to see what she looks like.
Speaker 2:She looks exactly like this girl we know, Caroline.
unknown:No, I Googled Natalie. Okay. Um, and but all I know is that she's Caroline's friend and kind of like helped her a lot behind the scenes.
Speaker 2:Did you read the essay that she wrote that went viral? Okay. Okay, so they met as freshmen at NYU, and a just kind of fun fact about it. It was in a writing class, and they were the only two women in the class. So, like, love that, you know? And Caroline is kind of I you know this because you did some homework. She has this like bougie part to her, but not a bougie in the sense that, like, oh, designer everything, or you know, like a maybe like what you would think of. It's more of a like Bridgerton bougie where it's like princess, no, it's more like Marie Antoinette.
unknown:It's more like the high, you know, the high school that they go to in Gossip Girl.
Speaker 2:Yes.
unknown:Like she went to a high school like that, and she's very much like wants to be like Gossip Girl vibes, where it's just like it's that, but still with this like English whimsical glare to it.
Speaker 2:Where it's like princess and ivy and yeah, kind of like etheral, old, and she's obsessed with it. Like she's obsessed with trying to kind of like attain this image, and so she's like really into castles, for instance. You know what I mean? I feel like it's like that kind of gossip girl. She like blends to be old money, she wants to be beyond old money, where it's like the architecture and they're like aristocrats, and you know, like that kind of stuff. She like wants to learn Latin and be a famous memoirist.
unknown:Of course.
Speaker 2:That's the vibe.
unknown:That's the type of bougie.
Speaker 2:That's the type. So it's a different than just like influencer bougie, fake everything, and like designer. That it's not as much that. It's this very specific type of bougie that she's like obsessed with becoming. Whereas Natalie is more described as kind of being like a little bit more down to earth. She played soccer, she was like more of kind of she called herself androgynous sometimes, or like a little bit more of a tomboy. So you can already kind of see the difference in the two. And Caroline also really wanted to escape her childhood, as she said. So she really liked, she went to a boarding school, as you mentioned, and she really would kind of almost like fantasize about being like a princess at the boarding school, like that had this whole everything is like a story around it. So, in that sense, great setup for wanting to be a famous writer. She has the imagination for it. Yeah, I'll give her that. So part of her wanting, so she's at NYU. That is too basic for her. You know what I mean?
unknown:Well, yeah, especially from the high school that she went to.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But part of the reason that she's there is because she didn't get into anywhere else. She applied to Yale four times, got rejected over and over. Like she wanted to go to an Ivy League no matter what. So her sophomore year, she applies to Cambridge. And do you know how she ends up getting in?
unknown:I have no idea.
Speaker 2:Scammed her way in, baby. How did she scam her way in? She forged her transcripts. Kind of brilliant. And she admits this after the fact, but it's like, that's on you, Cambridge. I'm sorry, but if you can't see through that, then you have your own set of issues.
unknown:Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
unknown:So honestly, I can appreciate the hustle.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I'm kind of like, shoot your shot, you know? Again, nobody's getting hurt here. It's like if if this Ivy League high quality school can't figure out a forged transcript, then isn't that on them? I don't understand.
unknown:Amazing.
Speaker 2:Sorry, we're both like coughing and drinking a lot of water and stuff because we've been sick. So bear with us. Um, so when she's at Cambridge, that's when her Instagram really starts taking off. She had started it before that, but at Cambridge is really where it kind of like starts growing a lot. Where she, and it's really known for posting these really long captions in this kind of like princess manner of trying to like really cat almost like I mean, Emily in Paris is also too basic for Caroline, but this idea of like, I'm an American at Cambridge, look at me, you know? And it's very whimsical that way, very magical, trying to almost like bring like Harry Potter to life. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. And this was super early on. I want to say it was like 2012 or something. I didn't write down the year for some reason, but so it was very early on in the Instagram day where that's like must have been like right when Instagram launched. Yeah, right in the beginning. Yeah. So it was kind of before the time of influence. You know, there were some like big bloggers that transitioned to Instagram and stuff, but otherwise influencing wasn't a thing for year for a few years. Right. Yeah. Again, there were some big bloggers and things that did transition, but other than that, she, you know, it was like not a lot of users on Instagram. So even just her doing this style of it was less about the photo and more about the caption. That was very, it was seen as like so different and so almost like edgy, so cool. Like, wow, you write these almost like mini memoirs that you know take up the whole caption. And that's what people really started falling in love with her for.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And that is important. Like this whole writing of the caption is a central part of Natalie and Caroline. So, and Caroline fully admits this that she bought 40,000 followers right away. Okay. So, again, not beating the scammer allegations. And she's like, Yeah, because I saw that Instagram she saw the tool that it could become. And her whole goal is to be a famous memoirist. So she knew that if I grow my Instagram, that's gonna give me a better book deal, which honestly is extremely switched on to realize that that early on. I don't even think people didn't know an agent wouldn't even know to tell you to do that yet. You know, like she was way before her time in that sense. So she bought 40,000 followers because she wanted it was all for this book deal. Like that was her sort of end goal. And at the time when that did end up coming out, because Natalie is the one who ended up telling the world that she bought the followers, not Caroline. It was considered a lot more scandalous at the time. Because I don't know if you remember, but like in early Instagram days buying followers, if you did get caught for that, it was like, you know, this mark on your name. Whereas now so many people, it's it's almost like a given. People do it all the time.
unknown:And they're like, Yeah, it's totally different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I started a business, I bought some followers just to kind of like get it off the grid, which is honestly, it isn't smart to do, it does not help you. No, it kills your engagement.
unknown:It impacts your engagement, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's not smart to do, but it was considered very scandalous at the time. So Caroline and Natalie meet up at this study abroad thing, and Caroline pays for Natalie's flights there. So Natalie said that she wanted to pay her back and offered to help write her captions for her for her Instagram for $10 an hour.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I don't know how much the flights were or anything. $10 an hour is obviously not that much, but so I'm like, you're gonna be probably a few hundred bucks from New York.
unknown:Right, and for $500 from New York to Europe at that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So essentially, Natalie is saying that she wrote all the pre-Cambridge captions, but the Cambridge captions Caroline wrote herself. And again, this is very important when it comes to their whole meltdown.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So Caroline's parents stopped paying for her college at a certain point, and also I didn't put down the years, but I feel like she was in college forever. Like she was a donut prince status where it's like, why are you in college for so long? And I think it was just that idea of wanting to be the Cambridge girly, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So her parents stopped paying for her college and she needed the money to be able to keep paying for her high cost of living, and she was like, not just staying in a dorm, but like the princess bougie dorm and you know, all of the things. So she's like, I'm gonna get a book deal. Okay, how do you think in college? In college, how do you think she gets a book deal?
unknown:Um she I don't know, she just like makes up a story and tries to sell it.
Speaker 2:Okay, so before getting a book deal, typically you need an agent.
unknown:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Do you know how she got her agent?
unknown:Oh yes, I do remember this. She started reaching out to them and like was like, aren't you supposed to be meeting with me right now?
Speaker 2:So she already had one in mind. It was like a very high-powered agent, and she called, talked to whoever, you know, their secretary or whoever it was, and she said she needed to reschedule a meeting that she had with them, like pretending like she already had a meeting with them. And then they were like, Oh, yeah, sure. Just and got on the books and then was able to meet with them. And then she is extremely charming. That's the thing about her.
unknown:By the way, I have done this before. It again is genius for a job interview. I've like called the headquarters, get connected to like the secretary and be like, Yeah, like I'm supposed to be meeting with this recruiter about this role, and then they'll get me on the schedule. And I've done that before, like 10 years ago.
Speaker 2:I'm literally shocked because you are the it works, but I feel like you're so of course it works, but I feel like you're so risk-adverse, so non-confrontational. Like, I can't I'm shocked that you would do that. I feel like that's something I would do.
unknown:Yeah. Do you know whose agent it was? Like why she picked that person? Who? Do you remember Tucker Max? Yes. Back back in 2012? Yes. It was Tucker Max's agent. Do you guys do you remember Tucker Max? I'm looking at Lex to see if she knows. I only remember this because some of my guy friends at the time were like obsessed with Tucker Max. Because this was like shortly after I graduated college, and my guy friends in college were like obsessed with Tucker Max. And he would like write all these stories about how he'd like pick up women, and he would just like it was very like derogatory, very misogynistic. Great. And all these like, you know, young, straight dudes are like trying to like learn from Tucker Max on like how to hook up with as many girls as possible.
Speaker 2:Okay. So he kind of was like pre-Jill Rogan.
unknown:But he did really ru well and he wrote a ton of books. Yeah. He like started off by I think like blogging. Yeah. And then blew up and then wrote a bunch of books. And he was very like in at that time. And she and Carolyn's like move over Tucker figured out who his agent was and contacted them.
Speaker 2:So this is this is what I'm saying is like she's again, this isn't really hurting anyone, but she is extremely resourceful. She the way that she was like seeing the way that all these pieces could work, I think was way ahead of her time. You know what I mean? Brilliant. Very smart, super smart, and very charming. And so once she did get the meeting, it was like, oh, that that part's easy. I could just charm the pants off of them. And I also, you know, at this point, she did had grown a real following. So you know how this there is partially a psychology when you're a user on Instagram. And it's like if you go to an account and you see how many followers you have or how many followers they have, they get more, you know, you're like, oh, they're credible because they have this number at the top of their profile. So I'll follow them too. So it was partially that, partially her engaging captions and this whole story, this whole life that she had created. So she had, yes, started off on this fake 40,000 foot, but then grew into something with it. Yeah, grew into real fans who were real people. And and so that of as she knew it would, helped her get the book deal. So it was like this combination of her charm. She's also very beautiful, you know, which I know most people be like, why does that matter when you're selling a book? But it unfortunately can help because it's helpful when they feel the author is marketable. Um, even though obviously most books we don't, at least for me, I love reading and I don't even know what most authors look like. So I don't personally understand that strategy, but it is definitely part of it. So she's like this young, beautiful girl, chimes the pants off them, gets the book deal. How much do you think this book deal was? I don't know.
unknown:100,000, 200,000.
Speaker 2:$500,000.
unknown:That's a massive book deal.
Speaker 2:Especially at that time. I was gonna say, I don't know why I didn't write down any dates and this outline of what year it was, but this is still very early on. So it's like $500,000 is a shitload right now, but let alone in the early teen, 2000, it's like, what? I was shocked when I heard that. Literally shocked. Amazing. I you're just like totally monotone.
unknown:I'm just like crazy, like good for her. Like she she freaking sold, you know, sold herself and got a great deal. Yeah. By getting an amazing agent.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the problem was is that, and this is Caroline's own, she goes on to tell this, she was deep in an Adderall addiction at the time. And so what she has said is that when she was like in the peak of her addiction, she was actually unable to produce kind of like any real art at that time.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So she was like, I can't actually write this book.
unknown:So she sells a book and then can't write it.
Speaker 2:And then she's like, wait a second. She also gets a hundred thousand dollar advance. So usually when you get a book deal, it's not just like, oh, here's 500 grand, and then you know, hope you write, you get paid in chunks. So you get an advance, which is, and I know you know this, but I'm just explaining it to other people who, if they might not know, you get a certain portion, and then you write the book, and then you get another portion, and then once like you it keeps rolling out in phases, and then after the book's out, you get royalties and everything. So the 500,000 wasn't all up front, but even getting a hundred thousand dollar advance is a lot for and then that's what she needed it to pay for Cambridge, right?
unknown:So she was able to like pay for her school that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this is the thing is like she didn't just go in, get the agent. An agent doesn't get you a deal, a publisher gets you a deal. So she went in, she charmed the pants off, got the agent. Once she got the agent, she's like, How am I gonna write this book? Her and Natalie get back in touch. And this comes out later in Natalie's essay, or no, it was in Natalie's book, actually, that she says once Caroline had gone to Cambridge, they had kind of started growing apart a little bit, and she her Instagram was growing and everything, and she kind of felt left behind in the dust, you know? And Natalie is like reaching out to her, and she emailed her a few times. Caroline didn't respond back, and she was kind of like, Oh, cool, like you're too cool for me now because you're this like Instagram girl. And then Caroline ends up getting in touch with her, and she's like, Actually, I could use your. Help. And that's when Caroline asks her if she'll help her write a book proposal. A book proposal once she got the agent. So they wrote the proposal together. And that combination again of Caroline's charm, the quality of the proposal, and then the high power of the agent is what got the $500,000 book deal.
unknown:Crazy.
Speaker 2:So Caroline's like, yeah, we're gonna do this together. And Natalie's like, yeah, I want in. Like, this is awesome, you know? And she gets this huge deal. And she told Natalie that she was gonna get a percentage of it, of course, because Natalie was supposed to help her write the book.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But because she was deep in her addiction at the time, they weren't really able to produce anything. Like Natalie tried to write things and would be like, What about this? What about this? And Caroline would be like, No, no, no, no, no, I don't like it, I don't like it. And also was not doing anything on her end. And then also spent the whole hundred thousand dollars. Of course. So she's eventually like, Yeah, I can't write this book. My bad.
unknown:And also she like goes back to the publisher and tells them that.
Speaker 2:Because you get a deadline, you know. So it's like, here's your advance. We want this by this date. You start getting these chunks of deadlines of you know, different chapters, whatever it may be.
unknown:They've just made a huge investment.
Speaker 2:A huge that's essentially what a book deal is, is an investment in you.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So what they're wanting, they're assuming that if they pay you this much, you're going to make that back for them in sales.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:That's the assumption. And then once you make that back in sales, then you start earning royalties. So it's like most of the time they won't even give you if anything, they'll lowball you because they're trying to protect themselves. Like publishers are almost like investors. You know what I mean? It's like a VC or something. And so the fact that they gave her 500K is that means they thought she was gonna sell even more than 500K. She blows the advance, doesn't produce anything for any of the deadlines that she has. And also, typically what happens once you get a deal, particularly if you have an audience of some sort, you start selling your book for pre-order.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's a big part of it. So she's also sold this book to her audience, took a lot of pre-orders. Okay. So this is what I mean by like not real victims, in the sense, like, how much is a book? Like $20. You know, it's not, it wasn't life-changing amounts of money. At this point, the people who bought in didn't know she was a scammer. She didn't have this reputation of being a scammer yet. Right. So they just thought, oh my gosh, we love this girl. We love her writing. She, she's the caption girl.
unknown:Yeah, I can't wait to read this book.
Speaker 2:Can't wait to read this book. So she has to tell the publisher, yeah, no, I can't do that. And I spent all the money. And also go online and tell her followers, like, sorry, guys, I actually uh like can't. And tell Natalie, you know, sorry, I can't do this. And Natalie was also banking on that, that paycheck. Of course. And had also done a lot of work already. You know, she had done the proposal and she had been trying to do all this stuff. So they fall out. And Natalie had told her, like, hey, you owe me back wages essentially for the work that I've done. And I'm sure that's never gonna happen. Of course not. And this, so the way that it's kind of talked about is Natalie felt like, oh, cool. Like once you didn't need me anymore, then you just discarded me almost. And Caroline felt more like, oh, once I couldn't give you something, whether it is the fame of the book, the money, like once you can't take from me, then you you're just out. Cool. So this is like one of those things that I was saying. Again, you can see both sides where you're like, Oh, yeah, ooh, I've been in both situations where I've been taken advantage of, and when I felt abandoned. Things went sour. But so far, whose side are you on? If you had to choose a side.
unknown:I mean, I'm kind of enjoying the thrill of Caroline Calloway at the minute.
Speaker 2:This is what I'm saying. She gets to you. Yeah. She just like gets her hooks in there, and you're like, why am I so obsessed with you?
unknown:I wouldn't say I'm obsessed with her, but I'm enjoying the thrill.
Speaker 2:A fascination.
unknown:Yeah, like where's this gonna go?
Speaker 2:Exactly. Like, what are you gonna do next?
unknown:Yeah, because cares about Natalie right now. Or Natalie.
Speaker 2:Honey, you can't just say who cares about Natalie.
unknown:I mean, give me the thrill.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you can't just, by the way, spend $100,000 that a publisher gave you and not deliver any work and be like, sorry, and then that's it. You have to pay that money back.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So she has a $100,000 debt over her head. And if there's one thing you should know about Cece, Caroline Callaway, she's scrappy AF. So good for her. You like Hustler? Exactly. Okay. So she's like, okay, I'm gonna run these workshops.
unknown:What do you mean workshops?
Speaker 2:What do you mean, workshops exactly? So it was this like combination of like writing workshop, but we're also gonna make flower crowns because we are these like whimsical girlies, and you know, like we might talk about kind of fairy shit sometimes too. Like it's very Caroline coded, you know? It's it was just her brand of a set, it was really more of a meet and greet, is what it was of like come be around me and learn from me. So, how much would you pay for something like that?
unknown:Um, zero dollars. I would never do something like that. How much would I think you know, like if I'm thinking about girls out there would probably spend I mean, back then 75 bucks? So she was charging 165. That's expensive. It's expensive for like a few hours?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't remember how long it was, but yeah, I I don't know, max four hours, probably that's pretty expensive. It's expensive, but is that a scam?
unknown:No, definitely not. Like if you're like, if this is worth it to me, that's capitalizing. And I'm gonna spend this money, then it's definitely not a scam. Is like it's only a scam if it's like she said, here's what I'm gonna deliver, and then you you said, Okay, great, I want what you're gonna deliver for that price. I want that flower crown, and then you did she didn't do any of the things that she said. I know there was like mason jars involved, like it was it was a but if it's like come have lunch with me, make flower crowns, and we're gonna dance in a circle, and you say, Great, I'm gonna spend $165, and you do those things, right?
Speaker 2:That's on you. That's not a scam.
unknown:So this is kind of the culture that's just like you're silly for wanting to do that.
Speaker 2:It's capitalism too. Like you anyone could set the price of this, how much I think this is worth, and if you can convince people enough with your own marketing and sales tactics, and it is a consensual, like transparent agreement, then it seems like she knows how to build demand.
unknown:Like if I think she's a great marketer.
Speaker 2:No shit, we know that about her. But yeah, so this was something that people were saying, like they got really this started her whole cancellation, which I think is very strange. Like, this is what you're gonna cancel her over. And they obviously didn't know what things were gonna turn into in the future, but just for the sheer price of it, people felt like they were being taken advantage of. But I'm like, but no one's forcing you to buy this, you know what I mean? Like, you can you're mad because you want to meet her, but essentially you can't pay to meet her. That's not a scam, that just means she's pricing it really high. But the part that is a scam, like you said, is if you don't deliver, so if you bought a ticket and then the show was canceled and you don't get refunded, is that a scam?
unknown:That's a scam for sure.
Speaker 2:And that's what she also did.
unknown:Oh no, and she didn't do any of the workshop?
Speaker 2:No, she did some of them, but she it was like, what is it gonna happen? Is it not? And because this is the thing, I just see her. Did she have a venue cost?
unknown:Like, is there like some reason why it's not refundable?
Speaker 2:Well, this is the thing with venues, you have to book them. Yeah, you know, you can't just say we're doing it at this venue and not book the venue and just assume you can show up at the venue and do it.
unknown:And that's what she did?
Speaker 2:Yeah. She's not a good organizer, okay? She's a brilliant marketer, a brilliant salesperson. But she's not good with logistics, okay. Not detailed. That's why she's Natalie. Well, she didn't have Natalie anymore, but exactly. She needed her Natalie, and it was like, so she would be like, oh, whoops. Like, I didn't realize one of them. This is how I know it had to do with mason jars. Some, like something, there were mason jars involved. And so she had ordered like 200 of them or something, and then she was like, Oh, I didn't realize how much space this was gonna take up, and like they're taking up my whole apartment. Can we just move the event to my apartment instead, guys? Like, what? No, I don't I want to do it at the vent, you know, like so she was just and then other times she'd be like, Oh, the weather is bad. Like, there was always these weird excuses. But some of the workshops did happen. So she was able to kind of be like, No, the whole thing wasn't a scam. Like these these weird circumstances really happened, but people are like, Cool, then give me my money back.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But if you're not super organized, then you aren't gonna know how to be like, yes, now I'm gonna refund these hundreds of people.
unknown:Makes sense.
Speaker 2:And she'd probably already spent the money, let's be real.
unknown:Yeah, probably.
Speaker 2:So in this time, there was this girl, Kaylee, who was a blogger and a follower, and she had made a post, I forget what it was on, I want to say maybe Twitter or something, and compiled all the reasons why Caroline Callaway was a scammer. And that was the first time that her name started being associated with being a scammer. And this was very like Firefest era, Elizabeth Holmes era, where people are like on the lookout for the next scam. You know what I mean? So it was kind of happened in like this perfect storm of what was happening in the zeitgeist, too. And yeah, like she, so she was talking about the workshops and she was talking about, you know, like just some of the other things that she had done. And some of the arguments were like, she's not a scammer, she's just really unorganized, and she's monetizing the way that all influencers are, you know, like all influencers charge these high rates for these things, and we're the ones that get to decide if we want to do it or not.
unknown:Definitely.
Speaker 2:And all influencers are essentially, and some I guess not all, but a lot. It's like you're kind of taking advantage of the fact that your followers love you and that you have fans, and so you're seeing how much you can get out of that, you know? Um, some people also replied by our dog just came in with her toy. Thank you for this offering. Um just don't squeak it. So um, some people went to our workshops and loved it, and they said it was totally worth it. They're like, Yeah, it was worth it. Like it was not a scam. So it's kind of it just sparked this debate of like, is it a scam if you're just charging a high price for something? Everybody gets to decide what's worth it, you know? Yeah. But Caroline really leaned into the scammer title instead of you know what she kind of reminds me of is Christine. Hey, stop squeaking. Someone take the toy. Honey, take it away from me. Um, you know, Christine Quinn from Selling Sunset, how she was almost like the perfect villain. It's like leaning into that, where she's like, oh, okay, you want a villain? Like, I'll be a villain. Or even like Kristen Cavalleri is kind of like villain, you know, she's like, Yeah, okay, I can do that. I can, and I feel like that's what Caroline did. She was like, sure, like I'll just monetize off of being a scammer then. Perfect. So she leaned into that. Okay. You know, was selling face oil that was called snake oil. Brilliant. Like, went full scammer ball.
unknown:She's like, I'm full, I'll be the villain. I'll be the villain that you want.
Speaker 2:Where she's like, and the face oil, it was literally, I don't remember what the thing, the what kind of oil it was, but it was like she bought it in bulk off of Amazon and then like repackaged it in small bottles. Again, like that's capitalism. So, you know, it's kind of like if you're gonna be dumb enough to buy that, people are like, it showed up with like some of her cat hair in it. And you know what I mean? Like, it was not high quality skincare, but she's selling it for probably $75 a bottle, whatever it was. And people are at this point just almost like wanting to buy into the lore of Caroline Callaway.
unknown:It's just shameless, and people are now just like enjoying the whole story behind it.
Speaker 2:Exactly. It's funny, yeah. So, not real victims. Not long after, Natalie sells this essay to the cut, and it was called I Was Caroline Callaway.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So she goes on to share how she was Caroline's ghostwriter essentially for all of those captions, and she tells the story of their friendship, the dynamic of Caroline being the pretty princess, and Natalie self-described as unfuckable. Like, this is a really common theme. Is like she was fuckable, I was not fuckable. So you're starting to like see this entry point of sex, even being involved in the relationship. You know what I mean? Like, why is that even part of the description?
unknown:Okay.
Speaker 2:You know?
unknown:Like she's like the ugly friend, and Caroline's like the beautiful friend or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if that's what she was using that word to not say ugly or what it was, but it was there was, and you'll see, like, there's a lot of sex-related talk around their dynamic. It was very much like I'm the sidekick, you know, and she's in the spotlight. And I sounds like a Taylor Swift song. It probably is.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But she's, you know, it's like, but I've done all the work. It's like when you're in the group project with the popular person. Yeah. But you do all the work. It's like that. And you're but then they get all the credit or something.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:So this is kind of the the way that she's painting it. And she's telling these dynamics of their friendship of, you know, times that Caroline screwed her over. And like, you know, we were at this bar and there were these guys, and Caroline knew that the guy would only want to hook up with her. So she said that she was going home so that they would hook up with me, but it then it felt like you're like giving me your pity leftovers because if you were there, you would have just taken all the attention. And so she's like sharing all these dynamics that again are very classic in female friendships. I know you have no idea what I'm talking about.
unknown:No clue. I was literally just thinking that in my mind of like, I've never experienced this before.
Speaker 2:Right. Because you haven't been in classic female friendships. Not really. Okay. See, you can't even no, I guess not. You haven't. Like, because you don't have that in you. No. So even if a girl was acting that way with you, you were probably too oblivious to even realize it, is my because I've seen it happen with you sometimes. Oh no. Where you, it's like a one-sided game, and you're just like oblivious of what's even happening.
Speaker 1:We're playing two different games.
Speaker 2:Like I'm just trying to hang out. So, so yeah, that does happen though. Not not all the times, and obviously not in healthy dynamics where you can be happy for your friend. There's not in healthy dynamics, there's not elements of competition and like who gets more attention from men. In healthy dynamics, that doesn't happen. But in young, more college dynamics, it happens a lot. Is any of that make her a scammer? What?
unknown:What is what I just was thinking, like, is I I got I really can't relate to this.
Speaker 2:You're like, I got nothing. I yeah, yeah.
unknown:That doesn't make her a scammer though.
Speaker 2:No, but she's kind of framing it as like, I did all of the work, you guys fell in love with this person, but you didn't even really fall in love with this person because I am her. I wrote all of her captions, and that's the thing that people love was like her voice, her, you know, that's what people felt like made Caroline for like a portion of time this person sounds jealous. Yeah, that's kind of the argument. Is that it's like or more like bitter. Yeah. Sounds a little bitter at the way that things have panned out, and jealous. Yeah, maybe it's yeah, I don't know. I don't know exactly what it is. Um, but to kind of go on to also be like, oh, look at what a shitty friend she was, too. And you know, the it's like that.
unknown:Nobody cares.
Speaker 2:People cared.
unknown:I mean, unless unless this person has done something really horrible to you, like no one cares, right?
Speaker 2:It's also it's just like, in my opinion, that's not it's not cancelable behavior to be a bad friend. No, we've all been bad friends at some point in our life, I'm sure. There's people at all phases of my life that could have been like, oh, this girl lied about this, she did that, she, you know.
unknown:Yeah, that could have been all done not good things, especially in our 20s.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, thank God we weren't on the internet. But but yeah, so I personally felt like that was just strange. But regardless, this article went mega, mega viral. Because this is like a takedown article, a takedown article, and again, it was that kind of perfect storm of a time of like fire the the scam of it all, where people are just like really into that. Okay, and she already had somewhat of a name for herself, too. So just the name Caroline Callaway, it held weight, you know? So Natalie ends up getting a book deal from this. She also wanted to be a famous memoirist. Sounds like she got what she wanted then. Exactly.
unknown:She did, she got what she wanted by still riding this girl's coattails. Yeah. It's like, can you do anything without her? Well, and this is this is like, is this how you want to get your first book deal?
Speaker 2:Because of what do you think they want the book deal to be about? Exactly.
unknown:Of course, about about more dirt.
Speaker 2:Caroline Calloway. Exactly. So it's like you're not even can't even get a deal on your own.
unknown:Yeah. Yeah. This girl's coattails.
Speaker 2:It is a bummer. You know, it's definitely a bummer. And I'm sure, and Caroline has this actually really good line in her book that she does finally end up coming out with. I didn't write down the exact quote, but it was talking about like how Natalie had, you know, was like in this cage, and Caroline essentially like threw away the key because she's kind of like, Cool, if you want to like use my name and like put yourself in a cage of me and try to live in my life, then like I'm gonna take back control of that, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So she gets a book deal and kind of becomes this rising star. Caroline is very canceled at this point. Like, people are like, You're a liar and you're a scammer. And this was already after that whole per that person had already made that compilation of her being a scammer. So people are like, you know, you lied to us.
unknown:And see, this is proof, and not the internet took her down after the cut interview.
Speaker 2:The internet took her down. And what's super sad is that two days after this article came out, so she's in this like media cancellation storm. Her dad ended up, and this is like trigger warning for anyone, he ended up taking his own life.
unknown:Oh wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Which is super sad and like a very real part of her story, you know, that isn't just like a drama. And um he had a pill addiction. Caroline was also deep in a pill addiction at this time, so that also, you know, she's now it's like you're being canceled by the world, the internet, but you're also dealing with this very real thing. And she's also still relatively young. I think at the time she was like 27 or something, and had only ever really lived her life adult life online, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So there was a lot of criticism around the way that she shared her dad's suicide and the way that she grieved because all of it happened very publicly. You know, she wasn't like this happened, I'm getting offline. She was more online than ever and kind of like showing people everything because she flew back home. She grew up in a hoarder house with her dad, like showed everybody the house, like just and some of the language she was using and stuff, and people felt like it was a little bit exploitative. Yeah. But then other people argue like there's no one right way to grieve, and you you don't, you're not always using your best self, and you're not the most rational in those moments, you know? So whether that was a you know, this has gone down as one of her scams of like kind of exploiting her dad's death for sympathy because this big article had just come out about she's a bad person, but it's like that really did happen in that order. She had no control over that, obviously. And the way that she handled it, sure, maybe it was very uncomfortable for people, or she herself might even say, like, oh yeah, that would have done it differently, being older, and you know, but you're not your best self right after something like that.
unknown:That's a lot to be going through. You're like getting canceled online, you have all this grief with your family.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Oh man. Yeah. So she's like just trying to kind of like make ends meet. She sells this three-part essay series to her followers, promising to essentially explain kind of like her side of the whole Natalie article.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Because she still is trying to make money, like she still has a lot of debt, remember. So same thing. It's like she sells it for $15 a person. That's not a huge amount of money, but she underdelivers on the word count. She like doesn't actually explain like huge parts of it, and it's kind of like, I don't want to talk about that part, you know. So it was the same thing where it's like you didn't fully do what you said you were gonna do. And yeah, it probably was a cash grab, but also probably you should have just stepped away from everything at this time because you're going through a lot, you know?
unknown:Yeah, but she needed money, but she needed money.
Speaker 2:So, anyways, in order to make the hundred K back, how do you think she ends up? Like, what's a classic way if you're like, all right, tried the workshops, tried this, tried that. How else do most OnlyFans bingo? Bingo. So, and this is the thing with Caroline, you know, because she's the bougie princess girl, she's not gonna be like, Oh, yeah, I'm just gonna go on OnlyFans, and in this like sex positive, empowered way, she's like, no, this is I'm doing only topless famous literary figures. Thank you very much, you know?
unknown:And and by the way, kind of obsessed with this girl.
Speaker 2:Obsessed. See, 15 minutes ago you said, I'm not obsessed with her. Now, now I am.
Speaker 1:Like, what?
Speaker 2:I'm just like, but also shameless, but zero shame, which is which might be I love I love people who are shameless because I have so much shameless.
unknown:Women who are shameless have so much shame, and I wish I would could be half as shameless as she is.
Speaker 2:And she's like, and it's not like this is this is art. This is the men who watch this are like Harvard grads, you know? That's and that's what she has fully told herself, told that, and so it's not, it's like, and you can do OnlyFans.
unknown:The mental justifications that we do in our mind to but it's like just only better about the decisions that we're making. Yeah. Only like Harvard graduate.
Speaker 2:Only they would understand are watching my OnlyFans come like uh probably Caroline, probably, probably, fair enough. But she makes it back, she gets the money, she does what she needs to do. She's still on the internet at this time, but has had this massive backlash, you know?
unknown:She's a survivor.
Speaker 2:Oh, scrappy as hell. That's what I'm saying. So she moves to New York. She's like, I'm gonna make it in the kind of like it girl scene of New York. Think like Julia Fox, like very in the doing literary only. Yes, doing topless. She's literally Julia Fox. But she's like, but by the way, she makes it in the scene. Like she kind of like makes a name for herself and is still growing her this rising star and trying to be this like edgy in the scene girl. And she does this crazy, she's like in this nice apartment, and she does this crazy thing where she paints the whole apartment white, like the entire thing, the floor to ceiling to the freaking toaster, like every single thing in there. When she ends up getting kicked out of that apartment, she gets sued for $40,000 for damages. Okay. So once again, this girl is not sure. She's in debt, as she knows very well. And so she moves back to Florida to be with her declining grandmother. And she's like, How do I get out of debt? You know, what do I gotta sell? And there have been accounts of people who have been like, Yeah, I met Caroline Callaway once. It was crazy. Like I saw her just like paint a postcard and then post it on her stories and sell it for $200 and like never mail it. And it, but it's crazy how fast people buy things from her. Cause that's what I'm it's like people want to be a part of the lore now. They're like, ooh, yeah, I'll throw away 20 bucks or 50 bucks. And and to say I was scammed by Caroline Callaway, like people want that badge of honor for some reason. I don't know why. It's wild. So her next move is I'm I'm gonna write a book, you guys. I'm really writing the book. Okay. This is now years, years later. Okay. Finally, she does write the book. It comes out, I believe, in 2023. She's like, I'm not gonna go with traditional publishing. I'm self-publishing, and I'm using this like fancy silk ribbon and this bougie paper, and all so it's $65 a book, but that's really a steal.
unknown:Expensive book.
Speaker 2:No shit. For a tiny book. Like this is a but she's like, you guys, it's because it's it's me, you know, it's me and this beautiful silk book or whatever. And that's without shipping. So with shipping for most people is about a hundred bucks for the book. And people are like, Yeah, I'm in. I want to see if I ever get this book. She finally writes the book, calls it scammer, self-published, okay, sends it to some media outlets and everything. And this is all driven by, and she says this by herself in her own book, driven by the fact that Natalie got a book deal and she wants to beat her to the punch. She's like, that bitch is not releasing her book before me. So if there's one thing to motivate me, it's pure rage, you know?
unknown:Okay, fair enough.
Speaker 2:So she gets it out to the press, like sends a few of these silk freaking copies out to the press and gets actually rave reviews for it.
unknown:Oh, good for her.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like she crushes it. She kind of crushes it. And she talks about being a scammer and her version of Natalie's essay. She rehashes some of the same stories of like, well, this is really what happened with this guy, and this is really what happened with this flight, and you know, like these fights that they had in their friendship. And this is the first time she introduces, well, actually, because remember, the whole premise of Natalie's essay was I was the victim because I was the unfuckable one. I was the sidekick. No one paid attention to me. Caroline got all the attention, but I did all the work.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So the power and balance was Caroline was also wealthy. She paid for everything. She was more beautiful, she had more power, popularity, Instagram, everything. But I made her. I did all of the work and I got nothing. I didn't get paid by her. I didn't get recognition. I got nothing.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Caroline sort of flips the power and balance, and she's like, Well, actually, I was the victim because I was in love with her. And so this is why. This is why.
unknown:I was wondering where the queer turn was gonna happen.
Speaker 2:There's some question marks where people are like, is she queer or is she using that to her advantage to be like, no, poor me? What do you think? You know, Caroline, you're obsessed with her now, in your own words. So I don't trust Caroline. No. Let's just say that.
unknown:We don't trust her, and I don't trust her intentions. So I'm not sold. Is she has she ever dated a woman? Like, is there any do we know who she's by?
Speaker 2:Like right. And that's the hard thing is exactly. And that's the hard thing, is it's like if some anybody can define their sexuality, someone could be married to a man as a woman. And be like, actually, I'm bi and never have kissed a woman. Like you can know that you're bi without a course. So it's it's hard to be like, Oh, are you? You know, and with most people, I don't think they would question this, but it's because of her past that they are.
unknown:Yes. And she's a little bit untrustworthy. A little bit. Tiny bit. I mean, who knows? She might be bi, you know, only she knows, obviously. But um, it feels a little suspicious.
Speaker 2:She has since gone on to say that she has slept with women, dated women.
unknown:Okay, then maybe she was in love with Natalie.
Speaker 2:Right. And and I've listened to some interviews that she did in preparing for this where she talked about being queer. And either she has listened to other interviews of queer people, particularly queer women, who talk about this dynamic of like, did I love her or am I in love with her? Am I obsessed with her or am I competing with her? She describes that dynamic very well. Oh. But I'm like, are you repeating what you've heard or is it real? Like, I have such a hard time, trusting dynamic to be in. Yes. And it is really confusing. So it can also be hard to articulate. So it's like you don't want to be too critical of like, well, you didn't describe it well enough, or there's only one way of that, you know, it's like so individual too.
unknown:It's just interesting though, because it's like when you have that dynamic with somebody and you're attracted to them or you have feelings for them, but maybe you can't acknowledge that or you're like suppressing that within yourself. You still generally want to be around them all the time and be in contact with them. But it sounds like from Natalie's experience, like that really wasn't what Caroline was doing. Like she was kind of like off doing her own thing, like didn't want to include her, didn't want to be able to do that.
Speaker 2:And so people actually see it the opposite where they think that a lot of people think that it felt more like Natalie was using her for her fame, her popularity with you know, both online and in the real world and beauty and stuff. And Caroline was the one that was actually, even if not in love with her, really loved her as a friend and like wanted to be with her as a friend, and ca and Natalie was the one that wasn't always like kind of there. But again, like only they know. Only they know, only they know. So there's this part in her book that was very controversial where she talks about this is again a trigger warning for anyone about SA, but she's talking about, and Natalie talks about this herself of a sexual assault experience that she had. She had called Caroline to tell her about it in this kind of graphic detail of like just telling your best friend what happened. And Caroline talks about how she got really turned on by it. And it's like the specific language she uses, I won't even tell you because you're already making a crazy face right now. And you know, it was it was very graphic, and even people who were more Caroline stands are like too far, too far.
unknown:Because then she's like extremely problematic.
Speaker 2:Well, and also goes on to be like, and then I told the guy I was with at the time, like to kind of like role-play the situation.
unknown:Like it was what it was a lot. That's so problematic, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, and she also so these are, you know, I told you sex comes up a lot when they're talking about each other in these back and forth books and essays and everything. She tells Natalie she had never had an orgasm. She's like, and then Natalie just like spreads her legs on the couch and starts pointing to her clit over jeans to like try to show her how, which again is a very you look so alarmed right now. But again, so many girls would do that. Straight girls would be like, What do you mean? Like, this is how it's like we do, you don't do that because you don't what straight girls are doing this with their friends?
unknown:What are you talking about? We there's no way we've had such different life experiences, honey. That is not a possibility that would ever happen in my life.
Speaker 2:Your life is different. I was in a sorority, I lived with 40 women, okay? Okay, come on, people.
unknown:This is not real.
Speaker 2:Yes, you talk. Girls are very graphic, there are no boundaries. We're just like, yeah, you do this and then you touch that. And like, we know girls talk in more detail about their sex lives than dudes, for sure. They will know the exact size of the guy's, they will know everything. A guy tells his other guy, yeah, I fucked her. But they're not as, you know, like they don't get into it as much with the details. The girl will know what the number of pubic hairs left on like they know everything. But so she's sexualizing it of being like, Natalie was like coming on to me, you know, look at what she did. And she then said Natalie gave her $200, but she said you can only spend this on a vibrator because Natalie like really wanted her to have an orgasm. Again, I would do that for one of my friends 1000%. If one of my friends was like, I've never had an orgasm, I'd be like, Oh, we gotta change that, honey.
unknown:Like, I get that, but then be like, here's $200, go buy a vibrator. What? That feels like a little bit much.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, I'm just saying I could see this in a classic girl dynamic straight or otherwise. Like it's it doesn't always mean sex in that same, like sexual, like I'm coming on to you.
unknown:What's happening though? I don't know what's happening. What's happening?
Speaker 2:I don't know. This is why girls get away with it more compared to like if a guy and a guy were acting this way on a societal level, they'd be like, Whoa, bro, you're gay, you know? But girls are we are able to, it's more socially acceptable for us to have this boundaryless relationship with our friends and it not be deemed society.
unknown:If I did this with a friend, they'd be like, You're gay. And I'd be like, Yeah, I am. What? But you are. Yeah, that's why I could never do that. What?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So so she and the way she talks about Natalie in the book, where she, you know, Natalie had painted herself as unfuckable, the ugly duckling kind of thing. And she's talking about Natalie, like she had these six-pack abs and this like soccer body, and she's definitely sexualizing Natalie and kind of trying to again flip that power and balance. Like she was actually the desirable one. She was more popular, she had more friends. She actually was the one that had more money. She came from this house where, you know, she had this nepotism almost like within the writing world, and like she was the one in power, even though I had this image of the princess. But like, so they're constantly both just pointing these fingers at each other, trying to be like, who you had more power? No, you had more power, and I'm the victim. No, I'm the victim. And the last kind of part that again was messed up in her book, she talks about how in these, this is a quote, she fucked a potbellied guy who looked like Natalie. And it's like, first of all, a dig at Natalie's appearance to be like, oh, yeah, you know, once she graduated, she developed this like adorable little pudge. It's just like, don't talk, you know, you're being shady as hell. You know, there's nothing wrong with having pudge or being overweight, but she's doing it to be derogatory, but kind of painting it as like, but I think she's so beautiful, and that's why I like fucked a guy that looked like her.
unknown:And and also I guess to be a compliment? I don't, I don't understand.
Speaker 2:It's a Caroline compliment, okay? And it was also felt icky because in Natalie's book that it came out at the same time, she had had this line in there about having gender dysphoria and also had like referred to herself as being androgynous and things. And it was kind of almost like a throwaway line. She never goes deeper into it. She identifies as straight, sis, married a man, like met her her husband at 24 or something. So there's in some ways nothing queer about Natalie other than I guess her appearance is a little bit tomboyish or androgynous, as she says. But so for her then Caroline to kind of say, like, oh, I fucked this guy that looked like Natalie, it it again just felt too far. It's like, did Natalie ever confide in you about this gender dysphoria? And you're now relating her to a man because she cut her hair and like gained weight. And she said that she did it because she did it because sleeping with women felt like a treat, but she wanted this to be a punishment. Like she was like punishing herself because she knew she could never be with Natalie. And even that I didn't like. I'm like, don't talk about sleeping with women as being a treat. Like you're just objectifying them the same way dudes do. I feel when if I hear a woman saying that, I don't like it.
unknown:I just don't like any of this. I don't know. I feel like Caroline talking about anything sexual. Oh, this whole conversation, all the things that she's sexualized has been extremely uncomfortable. Yeah. Like, are you doing that intentionally? Are you trying to make me uncomfortable? Because you are. You did that successfully.
Speaker 2:And so that and that's the kind of stuff that people were saying with the dad grief stuff where it's like the words you're using, the way you're doing it, it's so it's like intentionally cringy and just so much. And people are like, Well, like, that's too much over that topic. You know, I don't like that. It's abrasive.
unknown:I'm not obsessed with Caroline Calic anymore.
Speaker 2:So, and then she got she went on interviews being like, No, Natalie is queer. And then the host went on to kind of reiterate, actually, she's never come out. Like, that's so you're either outing this person who's never been like, and still to this day, Natalie has never come out. She's never said anything to do with Caroline and I was sexual or you know, so also that icky, icky, yeah.
unknown:That's really not cool.
Speaker 2:Did she confide that in you? Did you guys ever actually did anything? This is problematic, you know? So I don't know. What do you think?
unknown:I don't like it. That's how I feel. It just feels extremely uncomfortable, and I think that's a sign that like the way that she's approaching these things is not right.
Speaker 2:And for both of them, they rely on each other for their own success. Like Caroline has the household name. Caroline Callaway, as a name in and of itself, has a ring to it, right? But it's like you also, your entire book was a response to Natalie's essay. And that's why people wanted to read it. So it's like they're both, she is now, she's like, I'm publishing a book called The Cambridge Captions, where I'm gonna share all the captions I wrote myself to prove, you know, it's like your whole identity and your brand is around parasitic relationship at this point. That's a really good word for it. Yeah. It's like just feeding off of each other. And this article came out in 2019. That's six years ago, almost seven years ago. And still your whole thing is based on that. Natalie's book that came out also went deeper into some of these topics.
unknown:They would just go away. That sounds nice.
Speaker 2:That's the thing, is it's like being so fascinated with it. Like, but then and it's like you're not even you haven't talked forever. And the final kind of like nail in the coffin was that Natalie tried to sell Caroline's life rights after the whole cut article. For she had an offer for a million dollars. And she this is, I think, the last time that they talked. She called her and she basically said, Look, I'll give you 15 grand if you sign to sell your life rights. I think she told Caroline she was getting like a hundred grand. She told her a much smaller amount than a million. And she said, I'll give you this and we'll just call it even for essentially like what you owe me for everything that you put me through and the work that I did that was unpaid for. And so Caroline was about to do it and then kind of had this whole realization, like, no, I'm I own my life. I'm gonna, you know.
unknown:Yeah, how could Natalie sell someone else's life rights?
Speaker 2:Because she wrote the essay that then was turning into the book, you know?
unknown:But it's like that's not her life. She doesn't get to sell that.
Speaker 2:That's why Caroline needed to sign. So if she didn't sign, the offer was much, much smaller. And so she didn't end up signing. Caroline ended up selling those rights to Lena Dunham. And Lena Dunham was supposed to make a whole thing around it, who obviously has her own slew of problems.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So that's where we're at, you know.
unknown:I'm honestly I'm happy she sold her own life rights and Natalie didn't get to sell those rights because that is so that's so sick.
Speaker 2:I agree. I think that that is it's it's too much. Um and yeah, so she, you know, is often in debt, scrapping her way out of debt, constantly selling things on the internet. If you look her up right now, she's probably actively selling another one of her hundred dollar books and really stands by this like I am a famous memoirist now, and I got what I wanted, you know? And if you want to call me a scammer, fine. I'm a scammer. I'm leaning into that. Sounds like she's living her dreams.
unknown:I don't know what to say. Do you think she is a scammer? Uh I think that she's not, I wouldn't describe her as a scammer. That's not that's not the label that I would choose for her.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
unknown:You know, I think it's like, yeah, you've got some scamming tendencies for sure, but like I wouldn't say that what you've done, like you're like had this big scam.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think she's she's obsessed with attention and and clout, you know, it's like she published her dad's autopsy report. She, this is another big thing that she did during her Kane Milton in Florida where she lives. She's like, I'm not going to evacuate. And she was in like the top evacuation zone, and she's like, I'm gonna record everything, and if I die, fuck it. Like, and people were like, I don't want to watch this in real. And she was literally doing it because there's like news reporting on oh, influencers staying in her house recording during evacuation. You know, she's like getting the clicks, the views, the likes. When Luigi Magoni, is that I think Mangioni was arrested, she claimed that she had sex with him.
unknown:Yeah, so like you're not a scammer, you're just a liar and you're willing to say anything for attention. For attention.
Speaker 2:And money. Yeah. So these are, you know, that's what I mean. Just little touch points to also highlight.
unknown:Right.
Speaker 2:And those are all current, you know? Very current. So I guess the question is who's the problem? Is it Caroline for everything I just explained? Or is it the internet for continuing to invest, buy, be attention, do podcast episodes around her, you know? Like, is it us? Are we the problem? Or is she? Are we parasitic?
unknown:I mean, for me, the internet is always the problem, but actually in this situation, I think she's the problem.
Speaker 2:It's a close, it's like it's a hard one. Cause it's like we are feeding it though. Yes, you know, but I but I do think that would be her personality without the internet, too.
unknown:I think so too.
Speaker 2:Who do you think the problem is this week? Do you have one? Well, it feels like such a sharp turn to go with my who's the problem at this point. Okay, let's hear it. I'm scared.
unknown:It's just like such a sharp turn.
Speaker 2:All right, brace yourselves, everyone.
unknown:Okay. So you know this about me, but our listeners don't know this about me. I don't think Lex knows this about me, but I've maybe this does tie in with Caroline Callaway a little bit.
Speaker 2:Okay, little scammer.
unknown:I feel like Caroline Callaway would like golf courses, don't you?
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
unknown:It feels like it fits with her vibe, very like, but I'd be too basic.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
unknown:I hate golf courses.
Speaker 2:Yeah, agreed. Like, um it's it's like one of the only times I see you get really mad is when you see a golf course.
unknown:They anger me to a level that is irrational.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's rational.
unknown:Is it? I think it it's it irrational. It's like the water waste. When I see a golf course, it just makes me so upset.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
unknown:And it's really, it's really at a multiple factors, but one, it's like, why are they always on like the nicest pieces of land? Yes, the best views. With like, yeah, it's like, you know, the one that's um near Carmel. Yeah. Well on 17 mile drive, Pebble Beach, or what I think it's Pebble Beach or something like that. Whatever. It's on this, like, like the most beautiful land you'll ever see right on the ocean, just like stunning, unbelievable. It's like, why is it there? Number one. Number two, so I feel like it's on land that it really should never be on. Yeah. Number two, it's only accessible to people who are spending like $50,000 a year or more, like $200,000 a year to golf there. So it's like nobody gets to actually enjoy that space. It's not like public access. Yeah. And then it's like the amount of water and like all the resources to like maintain this, it just makes me so frustrated.
Speaker 2:But so who's who could the other part of the problem be?
unknown:I the problem because I get so angry about the golf courses, or it's just like, are the golf courses the problem? Because there's a lot of people out there who love golf.
Speaker 2:I know the golfer community is gonna come for us. They're gonna come for us with their golfers.
unknown:Caroline Cal would love to be a member of like Augustus or Pebble Beach or whatever.
Speaker 2:She would love to be a member, yeah. But I can't see her in golf attire. She wears hats that are shaped.
unknown:Are you ever a member of one of these golf golf organizations? Like, please shoot me. Like, do I like I what? Yeah, I think it's not the status that I want to attain.
Speaker 2:Right. I mean, some people like it just as the sport, which is questionable in and of itself.
unknown:I mean, I'm not sure what's all enjoying golf, like whatever. If that's your thing, go do your thing, but like But not at a golf course. Not at a golf course. Like, don't go to the golf course. Do it like a simulation or something.
Speaker 2:Oh god, honey no.
unknown:So who's the problem? Is it me? Am I being overly irrational with my anger?
Speaker 2:I don't think so, but I like irrational anger, so I don't know if I'm the right person to ask.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But we'll put it on the Instagram. You guys can vote. Let us know. I hope that the golfers don't cancel us. And if you do golf, we still love you. And we also want to hear who's the problem, Natalie or Caroline. I think that's an obvious, you know, we gotta vote on that one. Let us know what you think. I know we missed a lot in the Caroline lore, but I wanted to kind of keep it focused on the Natalie stuff. So let us know what you think. We love you, and we'll see you next week. See you next week. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the show. We're so happy to have you here. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you're listening to podcasts. We love getting commentary from you on Spotify and on YouTube. And as always, if you love this episode or any of our episodes, make sure to share it with a friend or somebody who will appreciate the conversation.
unknown:And make sure to follow us on all their socials at WivesNot Sisters Pod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Thanks guys. See you next week.