Wives Not Sisters
A playful, unfiltered podcast where a married wlw couple dives into the chaos of modern relationships, pop culture, queer lore, and all the little things most people wouldn’t admit out loud.
Wives Not Sisters is a queer-led podcast where marriage meets humor, honesty, and a little too much sharing but in the best way. We’re here to normalize nuance in relationships -- from romantic, platonic, familial, and everything in between- and to create a space where deep conversations and dumb jokes can coexist. Through real talk, playful debates, and just enough oversharing, we’re building a community that’s reflective, ridiculous, and radically relatable.
Wives Not Sisters
Lore: Caitlyn Jenner
In this juicy, long-form episode, Alix and Kayla go deep into Caitlyn Jenner’s childhood, gender dysphoria, Olympic fame, marriages, parenting issues, transition timeline, political contradictions, and why the public remains so divided. Honest, funny, compassionate, and unfiltered.
00:00 – Intro, reviews & coming-out stories
01:20 – Why listeners say the show helped them come out
04:40 – Caitlyn Jenner: pronouns & how she refers to her past
06:30 – Childhood, dyslexia & early gender dysphoria
08:20 – Athletics, college injury & the decathlon path
11:50 – Olympic fame & America’s “golden couple” narrative
13:10 – Marriages, kids & early controversies
18:25 – Gender dysphoria during marriage & first transition attempt
22:30 – Meeting Kris Jenner & the rise of the Kardashian empire
34:20 – Parenting patterns & strained family relationships
48:00 – Transition timeline, Diane Sawyer interview & media frenzy
56:40 – Missteps, public criticism & political contradictions
01:02:50 – Why the queer community is divided on Caitlyn Jenner
#Podcast #LGBTQPodcast #QueerStories #CaitlynJenner #TransHistory #PopCultureDeepDive #Kardashians #LGBTQCommunity #QueerMarriage #IdentityJourney
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Follow our hosts on Instagram: @kaylalanielsen @alix_tucker
You can also watch our episodes on Youtube at youtube.com/@wivesnotsisterspod!
Hey guys, it's Alix. And Kayla. And we're married. Not related. Definitely codependent. But in a cute way. And we're back for another episode.
Speaker 2:But we got a juicy one today. Do we? We really do.
Speaker 1:I think it's gonna be good.
Speaker 2:It's gonna be so good, so long, so robust. Sounds like I'm about to say something dirty, but I'm not. That we're not gonna do your turn to lead because it's just we have a fat outline today. We have a lot to get through. We have a probably just because like this person is 75 years old, so there's a lot to get into. Yes. But before before we do, you know, I have to say thank you. I love you to everyone who's leaving comments, reviews, sending us DMs. I remember how, okay, we've got a few messages and personal stories of people who have listened to the show and then come out because of it.
Speaker 1:We had a few people say that to us, which is so cool.
Speaker 2:And people from like teenagers all the way to people in their 40s. Yeah. So it's just like the coolest thing in the world to push the gay agenda for a living. Yeah. You know?
Speaker 1:We love it.
Speaker 2:We're just turn, you know, conservatives would be like, see, you are turning people gay. This is why we don't need more gay content, which I say, correct, we are.
Speaker 1:We are.
Speaker 2:You're welcome.
Speaker 1:I think it's so great that just hearing us having these conversations is allowing people to maybe explore things within them themselves that they've maybe never felt safe enough to do so, or you know, just maybe were too scared to look at certain parts of themselves, and now they're able to do that for the first time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, consider this other way of being potentially for them. And so yeah, we love getting those stories. Thank you so much for telling them to us. It makes us feel like we're not just, we say this all the time, talking in our living room into the ethers, into a mic, wondering if anyone is listening. And also, if there's anyone in your life that you think could benefit from hearing any of these conversations, please send the episode to them. I know you think like, whatever, I'm just one person. Me sending the episode to one person isn't gonna make a big deal. It really does. It sounds kind of like small potatoes, but it really makes a difference. So we love you. Thank you. Keep reviewing. Let's let's blow this shit up. Let's dive in. Let's dive in. What are we talking about? Caitlin Jenner. Spicy. Ooh. Okay, so I am excited about this one. And I guess right up off, right out of the way, because we're going to be referring to this person as they have personally request, not requested, like, oh, refer to me this way or that way, but they have made a point to say in their own memoir as well as in other interviews and everything that they're like, I am Bruce, Bruce is Caitlin, Caitlin is Bruce. When I refer to myself in the past, sometimes I use he, him pronouns when I or I call myself Bruce. Like I he isn't somebody when he's speaking in that like Bruce form, somebody that sees that as a dead name. You know, the way that a lot of trans people are like, don't ever say that name to me again. That is buried. I'm no longer that person. Caitlin slash Bruce doesn't feel that way. So, particularly when we're talking about them in their earlier forms, when they are still Bruce, that's how we most likely will be referring to them because that's how they refer to themselves in their own works of art. So just wanted to say that up top. Yeah, I'm clear. I'm clear. I know you're clear, but you know, I it's like some people can hear that and be like, uh, I know that other people have covered this person. And even though Caitlin has said that herself, they still won't refer to them as Bruce in the past because they're like, no, that's disrespectful. And I'm kind of more in the camp of like, well, if this person is This is what how they refer to themselves. They refer to themselves that it sounds even like their preference. I'm gonna go more based on their preference for this individual person. I don't think they say, Don't call me Caitlin when I was Bruce. I don't think it's like a strong preference in that sense. But um, yeah, I mean, there's lots, there's lots to criticize with Caitlin Jenner. And in my opinion, that's just not necessarily one of them. So so you'll hear us kind of referring to them as both, depending on what point in the life we're at. What do you know about Caitlin Jenner?
Speaker 1:I mean, just like high level.
Speaker 2:You do.
Speaker 1:I think so.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Like they were this amazing athlete, uh-huh, the greatest athlete of all time, right? For at the Olympics that they were in in the 70s, and you know, has had many marriages, many children, most renowned for marrying Chris Chris Jenner. Yes. And, you know, had Kylie and Kendall with Chris, you know, helped raise the other Kardashians, you know, was on keeping up with Kardashians. I mean, they've done a lot.
Speaker 2:Yes. I think I know a decent amount. Yeah, yeah, that's good, just kind of like high-level stuff. Okay, so they were born October 28th, 1949 in New York. They have three siblings, two sisters, one brother. And the way that Caitlin describes it in her memoir, a lot of this will be kind of pulling from the memoir specifically, because that, as well as a lot of interviews that they've done, is it's pretty much like the whole life is out there. So we're we might as well go based on that information and then kind of like the fans' response to it or critics' response to it. So, according to Caitlin, she experienced gender dysphoria really early on, like as young as six years old, would try on her mom's clothes and then her sister's clothes and the makeup and you know, the shoes, and all of that kind of stuff. So, very early on, six years old, had an idea. Of course, they didn't have the language to know what that meant, but they did have the understanding that whatever I'm doing is kind of to be ashamed of. You know, it's not something that I want to be caught doing. So there was enough awareness there to know, like, ooh, this is not going to be received well by others, so I should hide it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's like there was like early shame.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was gonna say the shame started early there, but without really knowing why. Why, man. You know, like why even even nowadays when these conversations are so much more talked about, still it's like just having the language that young to be able to express yourself clearly is near impossible, you know? So they were also diagnosed with dyslexia when they were in school. And this just kind of comes up briefly, sometimes like in some other career points. So they really went full force into kind of like being an athlete, and they were doing all the things with all the balls, the footballs, the basketballs.
Speaker 1:And Bruce was just like an amazing athlete.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:At everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And because of that, because of running in those crowds, sort of naturally popular, but always kind of described themselves as feeling more like an outsider, which they attribute to the gender dysphoria specifically. Um, whereas outwardly nobody would really be able to tell that they felt that way.
Speaker 1:I feel like they always described it as like Bruce, even though it was like very athletic and like handsome and popular, um always just felt different and almost like chose at times to just like be a lone wolf because they just felt so different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just kind of like kept everyone at an arm's length. Probably because they didn't feel super connected to themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know? So ended up getting a full, I think it was a full ride, but got a scholarship for football to a college and at that time blew out their knee. And so then that's when they transitioned into the decathlon, which is I so I thought that maybe this is really stupid to say. Is the decathlon part of track and field?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It is like it's like 10. It's I know 10. It's like 10 different track and field things, like throwing the javelin, the shop put, like there's like a running component to it. So there's like kind of like what people can compete on individually for track and field events, but it's like 10 events that you compete on, and then like you take your best scores from all of those, and then you know, ultimately.
Speaker 2:And that's supposed to be that indication of like best athlete in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because most people can forget like one individual track and field event and they're competing across like all of them or 10 of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So not long after graduating from college, Bruce qualified for the first Olympics in 72 and placed 10 over 10th overall, which was pretty remarkable considering they didn't really have proper, definitely didn't have proper Olympic training. Um, and just kind of, you know, to be a debut athlete for such a big event, it was people were like, whoa, who is this person? And so, in between that time of 72 to the 76 Olympics, which is when he won the gold and everything. So those four years in between is when Bruce was like, I'm going all in. I'm gonna train a hundred, like that's going to become my entire life's purpose in those four years. So they kind of later went on to say that in doing so, it was really just like this great distraction for the gender dysphoria because it was like this ever-present thing that was there in them. So it's like when you're training that hard, you can imagine it's like you're so occupied and so exhausted, you don't really have time to feel anything else, let alone like look inward. Do anything else. That's it. Yeah. Exactly. So in in Caitlin's book, she says, Well, yeah, that was actually part of the reason. It wasn't as much even about the competition or being an athlete. It was really all came back to just trying to quiet the noise of gender dysphoria, which I thought was kind of interesting, you know, because I feel like most Olympic athletes, it's like it's the athletic part, the competition. It's like that's their biggest dream. That's what they've always wanted. And Caitlin's like, no, it actually had nothing to do with that. So, anyways, I thought that that was kind of interesting. So in 76, they go to Montreal for the Olympics, and it was kind of that perfect storm of everything going on in the world with like the Red Scare and Vietnam and Watergate and Nixon, and and then also major networks are now starting to really kind of like highlight specific athletes and make this whole story around them with the Olympics being this really unifying thing for the nation of like we're going through these hard times, and now we're gonna really lean on these athletes to make us feel unified as America or give us hope in America, you know. And so that was all happening when Bruce was competing. So when he won the gold, it was like so much projection onto him, you know, of like, you are America's golden boy, like we owe you everything. America's sweetheart. America's sweetheart, because he was married at the time to Christy, who he had met in college. They married in 72. So she was with Bruce the whole time that they were training for the Olympics. So, and I guess she was also really beautiful. Like you said, he was super handsome. So everyone's like, oh.
Speaker 1:This golden couple. Golden couple, best looking couple in America.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it was kind of just like that perfect, because that doesn't happen with every it's like even nowadays, we don't even really know most track and field athletes. They're not these like main player athletes that we keep track of as much in the Olympics. It depends. They are.
Speaker 1:I mean, they can be.
Speaker 2:They can be, but for sure.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like we have a big star.
Speaker 2:Exactly. It's like, but sometimes there's just this. I am like, is it a planetary thing? Like, I don't know what happens, but it's like everything just aligns that makes someone be not just like a little bit remarkable, but explode into this fame. And that's really what happened in the Bruce Jenner gold, Olympic gold kind of era. So, like I said, he was married to Christy. They got married in 72, and they had two children in 1978 and 1980. So one of their kids, they had a son who they named Bert, and a daughter they named Cassandra. They also call her Casey. So we obviously in the lore episodes were talking about people's controversy. So this was kind of like one of the earlier controversies is that Bert's namesake came from Bruce Jenner's youngest brother.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember this.
Speaker 2:And his young brother had recently graduated, I think it was just from high school. And because Bruce had all these sponsorships and everything, he had already won the gold. He was living out in California, and his parents wanted to send the brother out to California so that he could get residency and then go to a college in California to go live with Bruce for a little while. They came out, the brother came out to stay with Bruce and had borrowed this. I think it was like a Porsche that had been Yeah, some what one of Bruce's cars. But it was like a fancy car that had been only lent to him through a sponsor. It had something to do with the whole sponsorship thing. And really tragically, Bert crashed it and died. And obviously, that is not Bruce's fault, right? No. It's like, yes, it was his car. There's it's just a tragedy. But the kind of controversy that happened around it, not as much at the time, but in the memoir, because Caitlin writes about this in the memoir. And she's like, Yeah, you know, I just had to kind of accept like it just wasn't, it wasn't his like his time was up, you know? And people were like, that seems a little callous to just be like, oh, you're just fine with the fact that your brother died. Like, you don't have to blame yourself.
Speaker 1:Weird way to grieve, yeah. And definitely, yeah, they also said, you know, like they had to come to terms with that it wasn't it wasn't their fault, but it was just like this person's time has come, essentially.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Weird way to describe things, especially with your brother.
Speaker 2:And then it's also one of those we talked about this in the Caroline Callaway episode, though, where it's like there's no one right way to grieve. And even though Caitlin wrote this literally decades after Bert's death, so one would assume you've already processed it and everything, but it's like, who knows what kind of mental health support you've had in the meantime? Have you really I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's like you don't always say that like just in watching keeping up with the Kardashians and like watching this is like Bruce's personality at the time, like the the interviews I've seen with him from like before becoming Caitlin, everything, and just hearing about some of the experiences of his life, he like really struggles with empathy or and compassion, if you will. And at times I always just wondered like if he was like a little Asperger-Z or something, like because he really struggles to like connect with emotions and has this like really kind of like a neurotic side to them. And wait, so can we just pause?
Speaker 2:You watched Keeping Up of the Kardashians?
Speaker 1:I've definitely like seen some episodes like early, early on, and his personality in that show was always like and it even stuck out to you at the time. At the time, yeah, like it would he'd be like, you know, just felt one, he felt disconnected from people, like struggled to connect with others. Yeah. So that's like one piece of it, I think. Another piece is just like, okay, so now he's gonna go off and do his own thing. He'd be out like flying remote control planes or driving remote control cars, kind of like doing like nerdy techie things, but by himself. And then the third piece is just like, and you'll see this come up through the rest of his of the book, is just he really struggles to have empathy for other people. And those things to me always stuck out as like maybe like on the spectrum to some degree.
Speaker 2:I have no idea, obviously, what it takes to diagnose someone with anything, but the way that I like my kind of conclusion I've come to after going through all of this is more, I don't know if it's as much about like a lack of empathy as much as it is, it's like you're just so good at being the victim. Nothing is ever your fault. To where it's like, maybe you it's like, I don't know if it you have a problem actually accessing and feeling empathy, or if it's just like a refusal to go there, because then that will force you to take some accountability for your shit, you know, which is like not the greatest. Because some people will be like, oh, why did Caitlin turn into such a shitty person when they transitioned? And other people are like, um They were always that way. Did you meet Bruce? Because yeah, they have always been not the greatest, like definitely a horrible parent. So this is a perfect example. So Christy and him, their marriage kind of starts being on the rocks and everything at a at a certain point. So they got married in 72. And so it was by yeah, so about eight years later. And so they kind of separated for a little bit. That was when he met his next wife, Linda, but he still wasn't all the way separated from Christy yet. He was kind of in that like back and forth phase. And so I don't think anything happened with him and Linda right away. And when he was still in the back and forth with Christy, she got pregnant from Bruce with the second child, Cassandra or Casey. And then they decided to fully separate. Neither of them knew she was pregnant yet. Then she found out I'm pregnant, goes to tell Bruce, and Bruce is like, Well, yeah, you should definitely get an abortion. Okay, so it's like, yes.
Speaker 1:And his logic was like, Well, this child deserves to like be raised by a mother and a father, and we know that we're separating, and therefore, like, we shouldn't put this child through that situation. But also, that's pretty harsh to just be like, Right. I'm not gonna and also said, like, I'm not gonna financially support you.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:And I'm not gonna raise this child, so therefore, you should get it.
Speaker 2:Like, if I don't want this child, then why should I financially support them? Like that. So, by the way, definitely not the first person to say this to a pregnant woman. You know, this happens all the freaking time behind closed doors. My issue with it more is that then you went on to say it publicly. You said it in your book, and also Christy said it as well at the time in an interview, which I think is her bad too. Like, because your child, who's now a full adult, of course, now knows that their dad didn't want them. It's like that is it's bad enough that you said that to the mother when she's pregnant. But now why are like that person, Cassandra, should never know that ever. I don't care if she's 40 years old, she shouldn't know that.
Speaker 1:No, that's so sad.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I also think I think there's something else that we miss, though, is that Bruce told Christy during their marriage about the gender dysphoria that he was having. So she was aware. Yes. To the to, but at that time, like if we put ourselves in the 70s when they were together, like I imagine, I don't know. First of all, he doesn't say like how he describes it. Like, is it you know, I'm Curious, like how what that conversation was like. Was he was he like I'm trans, you know? I doubt I doubt it. He was probably like, you know, sometimes I like to like put on dresses and dress up as a woman. Like, but in the 70s, you know, what does this mean? Yeah. I am if I'm Christian, like, what does that mean? And what does that mean for us? And how does that impact our relationship? And I don't think she was thinking, you want you want to actually be a woman. Right.
Speaker 2:I think she, you know, well, I don't know if Bruce knew what he wanted. You know, I think it was a big question mark for everyone. And by the way, of course I'm not gonna miss that nugget of information, okay? Okay, okay. I didn't know. No, because he this is something, spoiler alert, he tells all of his wives, according to Bruce, at least. So, and this is something that Christy also confirms in later interviews that she says, yeah, Caitlin or Bruce, you know, they told me this. And Caitlin said Christy was the first person I ever told. And Christy confirmed it publicly. And this was later once Caitlin was out and everything. And and Christy had said, like, you know, I wish them the best. They actually are still kind of amicable. They're like friendly and supportive and everything, which I kind of thought was surprising because of the whole abortion child thing, and then the fact that Bruce just is gone immediately and doesn't has literally zero part of those two kids' lives.
Speaker 1:Yeah, does not contribute, does not raise these kids whatsoever, just totally moves on as if he was never married and never had kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So they officially divorced in 1981, which was just cited as, you know, like growing apart, probably filed as what is it, like irreconcilable differences or whatever. But Caitlin later says that it was from the gender identity struggle. And Christy agrees with that. Like that was a part of it. We don't really get a a lot of like exactly what was, and maybe they don't remember the exact conversation, you know. Who knows if it was like, I don't know who I am, I don't know what this means. Cause at the time, too, it's like, did they even have the option of fully transitioning? I don't know. I don't know what all the options were at the time, but it it was a part of the dissolution of their marriage. So, but yeah, Christy has gone on to say that they really support Caitlin's transition and she was really proud of her honesty and bravery and everything, which I thought was pretty nice, all things considering. So then Bruce meets Linda Thompson.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:What do you know about Linda? Anything?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I know she's a bombshell. Okay. Because Bruce was kind of like living it up as the golden boy at the Playboy Mansion post-divorce with Christy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know about the 80s, but even in our time in college, the Playboy Mansion, that was like a place where people partied. And it wasn't, it was like kind of sleazy, but it was very A-list as well. Oh, yeah. You know, it wasn't, I don't know, it was like the place to be. So, anyways, Linda was actually an ex-girlfriend of Elvis Presley. Fun fact. She was a singer, an actress. So she was very much in that kind of like Hollywood circuit as well. And Jenner says that it was love at first sight. Christy kind of, or sorry, not Christy, but there's so many, so many women in this. Yep. Um, Linda describes it similarly, and they have two kids. Do you know which of their kids are?
Speaker 1:Brody and Brandon. Yes.
Speaker 2:Brandon. Yes. So I'm not as by the way, as much as I love trash reality TV, I was never a Kardashians fan. I got into trash reality once we got together. Yeah. So that was way after the Kardashians like big kind of peak. Right now, even just in doing the research for this episode, it's like, yeah, there's some interesting stuff there. There's obviously so much lore within the Kardashian web.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:I've tried watching the show a few times, like the newest show. I find it super boring.
Speaker 1:It's the whole show is like that. It's all boring.
Speaker 2:It's so boring. So I just I don't I've never really got the hype. It would be on sometimes. Like I was in a sorority in college. So it would be on some of the girls. So I've seen it-ish, but I don't actually know if I've even watched a whole old episode all the way through. It's like I kind of remember Bruce in the way that you're talking about where he's just sort of like in the corner and like shouting things from the side.
Speaker 1:He's just kind of like bumbling. Everyone kind of ignores him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just kind of there.
Speaker 1:He's just kind of like a bit weird, to be honest. Like a bit odd.
Speaker 2:I mean, you're also in a house full of stars. They're taking up all the space, you know? And I know he was a star in his own right at the time, but not compared to the girlies, you know? Like they're in full force. So, yeah, anyways, I know who Brody was because everyone knows who go to beach, the hills, everything. He's a babe. So he marries Linda because she gets pregnant. And this is also what I think is funny. We, as we know today, Caitlin Jenner is very openly Republican, conservative. So it's like, and they kind of pride themselves on these more traditional values and everything. And it's like, but abortion is okay, but like sex before marriage is okay. But like getting pregnant before marriage, you know, it's like all of these things are okay. I don't know. It's just very convenient, I think, to where you can have traditional, strict values about some things, but if you mess up and, you know, and deviate from those lines, then it's fine. It's like, okay, whatever. So, anyways, Linda gets pregnant and Bruce is like, well, we have to get married. We got to do the right thing. So they have the two kids. They're born in 81 and 83. Um, and Linda also writes a memoir that came out in I don't, I don't actually know when it came out, but it came out later. And she also says that Bruce at the time, now Caitlin confided in her in their marriage about gender dysphoria as well. So I think even before they got married, like she was aware. Really?
Speaker 1:I think so. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Why do you think that? I think I heard that.
Speaker 1:Because like I think I think basically like after Christy that he told both the next wives before they even got married that this was a thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe. Maybe it was before the official marriage. But but yeah, so the reason that this is interesting is that a huge kind of controversy surrounding Caitlin Jenner is is it true that Chris knew or not? Because this is something that they both pretty vehemently disagree on publicly. And it's like, why would Bruce tell his two other wives, who he dated much or not dated, but was married to a much shorter amount of time than Chris Jenner, who he was with for like 25 years or something.
Speaker 1:And not tell Chris. Also at the time, I don't know. There were there were a lot of rumors at the time around like when him and Chris Jenner started dating, there was tons of rumors already about him that he was trans. So I also find it hard to believe that it's like you she definitely heard those rumors because it was all over Hollywood, and but he never told you, but told his previous two wives. There's just no way that's true. Chris Jenner, you're lying.
Speaker 2:Well, so after Bruce divorces Linda, then he's like, I'm gonna transition. This is in the 80s. That is wild. Which is so honestly admirable, I think. Very courageous. To, you know, it's similar to what we've talked about, just like with the earlier you come out, even just as gay, not even talking about trans, but like the earlier you come out, the less rights that you have. In my opinion, that's more courageous because it's like you are.
Speaker 1:Everything judgments are so much more intense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's just like in general, you're less protected. Oh, for sure. You know? And so it's like you're just stepping into this even greater unknown. So yeah, Caitlin at the time, Bruce was saying I want it, they wanted to fully transition by the time they were 40. So this was in 89 at this point, and started going on hormones because of the hormones, started developing breasts, did a few facial surgeries, got a nose job, and then started doing laser hair removal of all the whole body. No, it wasn't the whole body, it was the beard. So, like everything on the face and then the chest. The chest, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, I thought the legs as well.
Speaker 2:I don't know, not yet. The arms.
Speaker 1:I thought they did it on their whole body.
Speaker 2:Not yet. I think that happens later on. But um, but yeah, they write about this. Caitlin writes about this in her book, saying that when they started the hormones, that she felt immediately better. Which I thought was really interesting. Wow. Yeah, because you know, hormones don't always make you feel great. No. So, but was just kind of describing it as like this constant noise or void or this thing I was trying to avoid or consuming all of me. And once I started the hormones, all of a sudden felt very just like at peace, aligned, their kind of truest self. So keep in mind this is an 89. This is all before Chris Jenner. That's wild. I did not know that until I was looking into this. That like you are fully starting to transition. You're finding doctors for the surgeries, like you are starting to transition. You are, I don't think at the time people were calling themselves trans, but like you're identifying as what what was the identification back then? Transsexual? I think transsexual, yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I was just like, whoa, that I had no idea of that. So, anyways, then Chris enters the picture.
Speaker 1:But but Bruce is on hormones for five years before they meet Chris.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:This isn't like I just started taking hormones and now I met Chris. Chris, it's like, no, no. He was on the hormones for five years.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And they had both recently gone through divorces. So, as we know, Chris was married to Robert Kardashian. He represented OJ. He was he was OJ's defense attorney. So Chris had just divorced Robert and Bruce had just divorced Linda in the last couple of years. And it's funny because I had to like go back. I was like, wait, didn't they both say this about Linda as well? Where it was like, it was love at first sight. And the way that they both describe it is just like, oh, it's this magical love at first sight moment. So what I wasn't totally clear on, because I've kind of read different things, is that Caitlin will say they I think they were kind of describing it in this metaphor of like standing on the edge of this cliff when they're in this whole transition process and about to take that final kind of leap of like, I am a woman. I'm assuming and like maybe more publicly dressing as I don't know exactly what that means. But even before, I think it was right before they met Chris that they had that kind of change of mind. Like, I can't do it. I I it wasn't because of Chris, though.
Speaker 1:No, it was right before.
Speaker 2:It was because the way that he described it was his children.
unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That it was like, oh, what is this gonna do to which is kind of funny because I'm like, you haven't even been in most of their lives at this point. So that's what I mean. I'm like, I feel like Caitlin feels empathy, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:Like there's I think they, yeah, they just got to that point where it was like, okay, I either like fully jump off the cliff now and like become a woman and you know, you know, present myself as a woman, or I don't and got cold feet and got cold feet and decided not to. And because he had been on hormones for five years, he had started developing breasts and then ultimately had to get a breast reduction surgery.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. So met Chris very soon after this moment because I was like, was it because of Chris that they changed their like I that's it? But I think it was all that was in a very tight time frame.
Speaker 1:It was, yeah.
Speaker 2:So met Chris, and Chris, of course, we all know Chris Jenner. She doesn't need an introduction. She is the most famous momager of all time. People call her an evil genius or just a plain genius, whichever you prefer. If there's one thing that she knows, it's how to see talent in someone, you know? So she saw that in Bruce, where she's like, Whoa, there's a lot of untapped resources going on here. Because at the time, Bruce's career had kind of fizzled out. It was like sort of washed up, you know, like, oh yeah, that guy, what's he doing? You know? Yeah. Like no hard feelings, no big controversy, but just kind of like enough. And Chris is like, Yeah, we're gonna do something about that, sweetie. So this is where they made that really magical pairing right off the bat, which eventually turned into the Kardashians ultimately, because it really all started with the Bruce Jenner name, where he was the talent and Chris was the mastermind behind it, just kind of puppeteering, being like, Yep, now left your right arm, now you're left, now you're right, you know. And Bruce is like, Okay, okay. I feel like he just was going along for the ride. But he had the household name, you know, and but he didn't really, he was not the brains of the operation. We'll just say that. We know that was Chris Jenner. So it starts with just like infomercials and doing these motivational speaker gigs, and then they both kind of grow together as a couple. They did these like workout videos together. Amazing, which were very 80s coded. I even I think it was the early 90s at this point, but they were still like 80s kind of attire, and they were just kind of like, and Chris Jenner, she wasn't somebody that came from nothing. Like she already had, she was in the Hollywood circuit too.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. She had a huge network already.
Speaker 2:She had a network, she had, you know, like upper middle class. She wasn't somebody that was like hard knocks by any means, but they were nothing like how you know them today. You know, they weren't as big as they know it today. So she really kind of grew the whole Kardashian brand and frame. Some would argue off the back of Bruce Jenner, which a lot of people will be like, no, that's not true. It's literally called the Kardashians. But at least, and this is the way that Caitlin writes about it in her book, which is like, ooh, is that a dig at Chris? Or is this what really happened? Because Chris will say, it was all my idea, which we know she is the mastermind. She is the brains behind all of their operations. But Caitlin had written had written, had written had written, oh yeah, one day we were watching the Osborne's, and I kind of noticed their quirky family dynamic, and I was looking around thinking, like, oh, we have this crazy family dynamic of this blended family. Like, we could do this. So Caitlin's kind of saying, like, it was actually my idea. And then Caitlin also says in her book of, you know, when we went into the meeting, and whoever the producer, whoever they were pitching it to, was like, I don't really get it. Like, what's what's the premise of this show? We just, whatever. Bruce Jenner is in it. And it was like he was the selling point. That's kind of his claim. So I don't know. Like, what do you think about that?
Speaker 1:I mean, the Kardashians, they weren't anybody.
Speaker 2:Well, Kim was a closet organizer, okay, by sheer time.
Speaker 1:There was nothing happening for them at that point, you know, they were nobodies at that time. And I think it's true that like this was built off of Bruce Senner's name.
Speaker 2:It definitely got their foot in the door, I would say. You know, but it's not what kept, as you said, on the show, he was kind of just there, kind of a weirdo a little bit, like not this prominent character. So it's not what has given them the longevity, but it seems like it kind of gave them the jump start. So I don't know. I thought that that was kind of interesting. And yeah, so gets the breasts reduced, closes the door fully on the transition. Obviously, like everything with the OJ trial happens. And that's kind of neither here nor there in Bruce slash Caitlin's story, necessarily, other than when Caitlin writes about it later, says, like, I knew the OJ was abusive. I hated that guy, you know, whereas like when Chris writes about it, she's kind of more like, I don't know, I wish that we knew. And other friends, friends have had very split opinions about that. So it is something that people are critical of where it's like, so you're saying you did know he was abusive and you didn't never try to help this woman, you know? I don't know. We'll never, I would imagine it was probably obvious that he was not the greatest guy, OJ, you know, but we'll never really know. So in 95 and 97, he has Kendall and Kylie with Chris. And um this is this is something that I know was talked about on the show. Did you ever see any of the episodes with the stepkids like Brody or anybody?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You did? What what do you think the dynamic looked like?
Speaker 1:I think I don't know. I think there was a time when um when they were all like close, and then there was a time when they weren't. That's kind of like what I remember was like there was a time when Brandon and Brody were like more included, and then there was a time later when they they stopped being kind of included, is what it seemed like. But I don't really know why or what happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that is also something that him and Chris kind of dispute about in the media, is Caitlin saying, and this is one of the victim things again, where the way that Caitlin describes it is like Chris had all the power. I had no autonomy, like she had full, she it was her checking, like she was the breadwinner, she was in control of everything. And at a certain point, she said she didn't want my other kids around. Like she just wanted it to be our family, you know, the Kardashians and the Jenners. And Chris, as well as I think some of the girls too, were like, that never happened. And also, like you had a car, you still had a credit, like you, you were not literally this like starving housewife at home who had no freedom. You definitely could have still had a relationship with your kids. Yeah. And it seems kind of like you're pinning that on Chris to be like, Well, I wasn't a bad dad. I just wasn't allowed to be the dad in the way that I wanted to. And it's like, really?
Speaker 1:I mean, no one can stop you.
Speaker 2:Nobody can stop you. But that's what I mean, where it's like this you just feel so bad for yourself all the time that you don't ever take responsibility.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, everything I've seen from Brandon and Brody is just that like Bruce just wasn't around and didn't want to be around.
Speaker 2:I yeah, and it's even something that Brody tries to confront Bruce on the show, being like, I just feel like you weren't around, and Bruce is like, you know, just totally shuts it down. So I don't know. Like, this has now been a common complaint.
Speaker 1:I think it's a thing, I think Bruce just does not take accountability for the fact that he was not a present father in any of his kids' lives except for Kylie and Kendall.
Speaker 2:Well, yes, and it's like Kylie and Kendall, what that was the most involved. Bruce was, but also as soon as they transitioned, that relationship totally changed again. And it's like you were there in the whole, pretty much like their whole life raising them. That was the most involved you ever were in any of your kids' lives. But then immediately separate, you know, it's like you aren't there for them. That is a common complaint that all because also the Kardashian girls, they were very young when him and Chris got together.
Speaker 1:I know. He like raised Chloe practically because Chloe was so young.
Speaker 2:Because Robert Kardashian, if you don't already know this, probably do, but he passed away a long time ago when the girls were pretty young. So it was like their dad died. They also have this stepdad figure in their life. Probably even if their dad didn't die, he would still be an important figure in their life. You raised them, and this was a common complaint they had even on the show, is like you just feel emotionally distant. Like you're not here. Like you just kind of come in to lecture us about certain things, but you're not like here here. You know, you're not fully present.
Speaker 1:He's not like a connected figure. Like Chris is like involved and connected to each one of her kids. Like that's very obvious. Like maybe too fault. Yeah, they're all kind of like that, all the Kardashian girls. But like Bruce was not that way at all. You can just tell that they struggle to connect with other people in general.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And just on a side note about Chris, because this is something I heard recently, because I know that it's like, I don't know why the hell we're still talking about Chris, or not Chris's, but might as well be Chris's, Kim's sex tape. And like, is that the thing that made them famous? Is it not? You know, did they produce it? And there were these accounts coming out saying that like it was fully produced, like they had to shoot it three times, and Kim had glam for it.
Speaker 1:Like it was fully produced and Chris was there. Oversaw.
Speaker 2:She was like, You're doing great, sweetie. Bend over and then released it. A little to the right. I'm like, oh, that is that's too involved. Okay. I would take Bruce over Chris any day in that regard. That I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think Kim would take Chris over Bruce and take a billion dollars to the bank.
Speaker 2:I know Kim would, but I'm just saying, for me, I'm not trying to have sex in front of my mom.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Call me crazy. But what? So yeah, Caitlin kind of describes this disconnection that so many viewers could see, that the girls could see, you know, that the world could see as it being a part of their gender dysphoria. Where it's like, yeah, I again was like lost in this void, or when you're constantly consumed by this one big thing, then it can feel hard to connect to other people. Do you think that that's a cop-out? Or do you think that's real? Like, what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1:I think that's real in the sense that, like, yeah, I think when you don't when you're not connected to yourself, it can be really hard to connect to other people, and that can be really isolating. But I also think that like you chose to be a parent to 10 kids, but then not actually be a parent. That's like both things can be true at the same time, and like you have to take accountability for the fact that you weren't a good parent.
Speaker 2:But also my question is like, what's the excuse now? Like you've been out now for 10 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's my thing, is like their personality has been consistent since they've been out to before. That's why my thing is like I think there's something deeper going on because they just don't seem to be able to connect with other people in general, which is why I think that there's somewhat on the spectrum.
Speaker 2:Or if it's just a like you're you've been so consumed with shame since you were so young, since you're six, you're essentially in the closet, which the closet, as we know, is a symbol of shame. So it's like, are you just so consumed with shame that you literally can't look at yourself in not literally in a mirror, but I'm saying, like, look at when you look at yourself honestly, that includes your faults and your shortcomings and your flaws and like being able to own that. If you have confidence, you can I feel like it takes confidence to have accountability. If you don't have confidence, then it's like you're so you feel so ashamed almost of what you've done that you're like, you can't handle it. You can't handle looking at the truth or something.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I think they've struggled with all relationships their whole life till this day. Friendships, being in relationships, relationship with their kids. Like that, that's a sign of a deeper issue going on, not just like, you know, gender dysphoria, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's conf it's like may I I agree that it's like two things can be true at once, but then what's the reason now if your gender has been now affirmed and you are out publicly, then like why do you still have distance? Even though I know that they say, Oh, we're good now, but it's like, are you? Because nobody you're not close by any means.
Speaker 1:And even in writing- I think they're only close with Kylie, and that's it.
Speaker 2:I think there's even been complaints there where it's like they were absent for a while post-transition.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And Caitlin's book came out in 2017. So it was kind of a while ago at this point, but also not that long ago. And it's like you're still victimizing yourself in 2017.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So on the show itself, when Bruce was still Bruce, fans were also critical of him then, partially for what you're talking about, this being like, oh, a little bumbling kind of there, kind of nothing. But on a deeper level, people would call him sexist a lot, misogynist a lot, because he was constantly being like, cover up. Like, why does everything have to be so sexy? Like, have some respect for yourselves. There are times that he even had called some of the girls overweight or like talked about their bodies in ways that regardless, it's just like nobody should be talking about you like that, let alone your dad, you know? So he did have a lot of criticism on the show as well for that. And yeah, it was like also very much wanting these traditional gender roles within the house of like clearly had a problem with Chris having the power. Like, seemed to kind of complain about that a lot. And and not just, okay, I would like also some more autonomy, but I can understand, I guess, like how that might feel emasculating, but then it's like, but no one's also stopping you. Like, do something about it. I don't know. I just I don't feel that bad for you.
Speaker 1:No. He also seemed really content with like letting Chris take charge of the household, the business, everything. Very passive. Yeah, didn't, yeah, very passive and just wanted to kind of do his own thing.
Speaker 2:But then would complain at the same time because it was like, oh, but this isn't fair. And like the it it the implication was more like the man should kind of be running the house, like it shouldn't be this way. So, anyways, people, you know, he also would say things about like, oh, I'm in this house full of women, and it's like full of estrogen, and just kind of making comments that people would sometimes accuse him of being sexist or misogynist. And so these are all things that happened on the show pre-transition. You're old-fashioned, you're judgmental, you're not emotionally available, you're obviously not the greatest parent. Like, these are all things that happened pre-transition. And in 2007, his daughter Cassandra, the one that he said shouldn't have been born, had a wedding. Bruce was not invited, which when Caitlin writes about it in the book, she's like, Yeah, I mean, I get it. I guess I shouldn't have been invited. And even still, it's like, I don't know, it just feels kind of whiny the way that they write about stuff. It's like, yeah, do you not remember however many hundred pages before you said that this person shouldn't exist? Why would they have you at their wedding? You know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then you've made no effort with them ever since.
Speaker 2:Ever.
Speaker 1:Why would you deserve to be at their wedding?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I don't know. I'm just like, Bruce kind of sucks. Yeah. You know? So now it's like, I don't know why. And this is where I think so much of what, especially the queer community, knows about Caitlin Jenner, where they're like, oh, she's this huge disappointment. But I'm like, what did you expect when they started as Bruce? Right. Like, already didn't have the best integrity. Like you said, very passive, just kind of rolls over, takes it, like, not you have no chutzpah, you know?
Speaker 1:They got nothing going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You are a great athlete. That was it.
Speaker 2:And that was so long ago. You're like not a great person. But you also even said you didn't even really care about being an athlete. That was just connected to quieting that noise of gender. So it's like, I don't know. Anyways, when him and Chris end up separating, which was, I think, yeah, 2014. Then the way that Caitlin describes it is now she has this her own house in Malibu. So, you know, the Kardashian house is obviously chaotic. It is full of a lot of people, a lot going on. And now they finally had space and privacy to like really explore a little bit more. Cause also Bruce has not been single for longer than like five seconds. So you have never had space to, and now a little bit more remote, it's like you're able to wear the clothes to like experiment in those ways. And that's when Bruce decided, like, yeah, I need to come out. So do you remember the whole trachea surgery thing? No. So this was like before Bruce had come out as Caitlin. And TMZ had basically caught Bruce coming. I don't know if it was coming out or going into getting the trachea shaving. So it's like uh something that like the Adam Sapple? Yeah, you can like shave it down so that it's less prominent. Some trans women do that. And yeah, TMZ had caught them either coming in or out of the surgery. I don't know which one. And Bruce at the time was like, please, please don't air this. Like I have not told my kids yet. Because there's like no other reason you get that surgery. You know what I mean? This isn't like, oh, I just wanted to laser my beard off because I don't want to shave anymore. Like, some you can kind of make excuses around this. It's like, there's only one reason you're doing that. And he literally had called the head of TMZ because of course he knows who they are, and he's like, please don't air it. And they still did. So this is like now when speculation is in full force, like, oh my gosh, is Bruce transitioning? And the whole world is talking about it. He hasn't even been able to talk to his family about it. And then now Caitlin goes on the Diana Sawyer, Diane Sawyer interview, which is kind of this I don't know if it's famous or infamous, but you know, a well-known interview. Yep. And tells the world that they're trans. And this was like a really big moment just in kind of history. History. Because again, transness, this is only 10 years ago. It's still there was a lot of question marks.
Speaker 1:You know, like people are like, There were not that many people out as trans in 2015.
Speaker 2:Especially in like that kind of platform, right? So so yeah, and I don't know if in the interview Caitlin had said, like, I am trans. The clips that we watched, I never heard her say that.
Speaker 1:I mean, first of all, they even call it like the Bruce Jenner interview at the time. So it's like the whole like I am Caitlin vogue shoot hadn't happened yet. Or like call me Caitlin or whatever. Yeah, the vanity fair. It was coupled with that. But Diane Sware did ask, like, so are you a woman? And Bruce is like, I guess, yes, I am a woman, you know? And so so I think that is coming out as trans. If you're saying, like, my he's he at the time was like, my soul is a woman.
Speaker 2:Right. So they were coming, but I'm saying I didn't know if they used the words like I don't know that they don't think they just said I'm a woman.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I don't even know if that language, again, was there as much at that time. I know the word trans was, but it's like what I took from the interview is it felt it felt too soon in Caitlin. Caitlin's, it was like she didn't know how to describe things yet, is what it felt like. And it felt like a lot, and I I understand why she did it, because it's like you you needed to, especially if TMZ is catching all the, you know, and like you just kind of want to like put it all out there, but it felt like there was still a lot of question marks that she was kind of navigating. For sure, you know?
Speaker 1:And yeah, so it was kind of it was like announcing that they were going to start the transition.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And because there was like this photo of Bruce, and Caitlin was like, Yes, this is me, and that is her, you know, like trying to say, like, me and Bruce are the same person. And that is kind of when it started of like, yeah, you can still call me Bruce. I I still feel like Bruce sometimes. Like, there was that's what I mean. There was kind of a lot of it, it wasn't super clear yet, but I think it was because maybe she wasn't super clear yet. Agree. Which I do have sympathy for, honestly. Like that would be think about like when you first come out.
Speaker 1:Trying to navigate coming out to the world. That is wild.
Speaker 2:To anyone, even just on a smaller scale. It's like when I came out, and some people in my family have all the answers. Being like, Are you gay? Are you bad? Like, what are you? What does this mean? I'm like, I don't know. Yeah, you just don't have all the answers.
Speaker 1:It takes time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So then doing that on this global scale is a lot of pressure. Um, and the other thing that I thought was really interesting about the interview is because Diane is like, you know, are you gay? And Caitlin's like, no. Like I kind of almost laughed at it, like, oh God, I'm not gay, you know? As if that was a bad thing to be. I'm like, okay, come on, really. Um, and then it's like, as far as I know, I'm a heterosexual, I've only ever hooked up with I've only ever been with women. I've only ever, yeah, I didn't say hooked up, but only ever been with women.
Speaker 1:And I'm it's like you're a woman now. So you just said you are a woman. And Diane Swear is trying to like navigate that with Caitlin, and Caitlin's like not getting not getting it or not wanting to get it, you know, because like basically Diane Swear is trying to say, like, do you like men or do you like women?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And Caitlin's just like not getting the question.
Speaker 2:Which again, maybe it's because it's not something she had fully gone into.
Speaker 1:Like, she might have not had the answer yet. She kept saying, like, this isn't about sex, this is about like my gender. And the way I took it was like maybe you are interested in both, but you're not ready to say that yet. Because that feels like really scary. And that's why you don't want to talk about your sexual attractions. You only want to talk about your gender identity. But either way, I think them not answering it, the way they like didn't answer it, I felt like was it left a lot of questions out there.
Speaker 2:Well, also because you've been married to women. So I think people wanted to know, like, were those relationships real? Was that, you know? But also my take from actually watching it, it was that almost kind of like, no, I'm not gay. Like, oh god forbid. I don't know. It felt like that was a criticism or something. And I'm like, what? Which I can understand. I know a lot of trans people come out.
Speaker 1:You are now gay because you are a woman. And if you only date women, you are therefore gay.
Speaker 2:But that's why it was so funny because out of Caitlin's own mouth, they're like, no, I'm heterosexual. I've never been with a man. And it's like, but you just said the breath before that you are a woman. So what? Like, whatever. I know a lot of trans people have steps in coming out. They're not like, I'm trans and gay. And you know, you don't have to have everything all figured out, but it was just kind of, you know, kind of funny. Um, and so you talked about the Vanity Care Fair cover, which was coupled with this interview that she was wearing this. Like, do you remember what she was wearing? I don't know what it's called, but I remember what she was wearing, yes. Like a bastier. A boustier. Yeah. And underwear. And and I don't know if it was in this interview or if it was in another one. And this is something that also Caitlin's been very criticized for. Is she says, like, the hardest part about being a woman is deciding what to wear every morning.
Speaker 1:Oh no, come on.
Speaker 2:And women, cis women, you know, will be like, seriously? Like it's just totally minimizing what it means to be a woman. Like, what about being afraid of, I don't know, walking out of your house or sleeping alone, or yeah, you know, like real fears and worries we have as women.
Speaker 1:Caitlin hasn't had the female experience for the first, you know, 60 years of their life. So they don't know all those hardships. They haven't had to navigate it.
Speaker 2:And it is, it's kind of interesting because it's honestly, I see this more on kind of like conservative media where they will criticize if we're specifically talking about trans women in that regard, where it's like, oh, you're minimizing the experience of what it means to be a woman. And it is, you know, but I think that also people on the left or liberals can can say the same thing where they're like, hey, that's not the hardest part about being a woman, you know? Yeah, no. But I do see it more on the conservative side, and the reason that's kind of funny is that this is an another quote unquote big controversy of Caitlin Jenner is that she's also a very staunch Republican. So, you know, okay, what do you think about that?
Speaker 1:The fact that they're Republicans?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't think much about it. I think it it is I I don't know. I I I think it's funny when queers are like, if you're queer, you have to be a Democrat. Like you can't be a Republican. And it's like I understand that the Democratic Party is more socially progressive and liberal, and would I would say like maybe fights for the rights of queer people, but that doesn't mean that you can't care about the issues and side care about other issues and side in a different direction. Like I think sometimes I think the queer community is basically like that has to be the most important issue to you, and therefore you have to vote Democrat, even if you believe all these other things that are contrary to what Democrats believe. But that ha that issue has to take precedence over everything else. I don't agree with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I I guess the part that I disagree with, regardless of if someone's gay, straight, whatever, I don't think it should be their political party, should be a controversy. I always think it's funny if I'm like just doing the high-level research for any of these characters, and it's like, you know, I'll just start by Googling or like looking on chat or something, and it's like, tell me these persons' controversies, and then I dig into it. And if one of the controversies comes up that it's like they voted Republican or they were like friends with a Republican, I'm like, that's not a controversy. No.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, but that's but anyone in Hollywood, if they're a Republican, it's considered a controversy, which I think is like mind blowing to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I do I do understand how it is confusing for sure. I would say almost even more so for a trans person than a gay person to be conservative, because even within like LGBT, TQ rights, like gay rights. Conservative people are it's not all one or the other. It is still split. Like not all conservatives say gay people shouldn't be allowed to be married. But I would venture that like the majority, not all, because there's always outliers, but the majority are pretty pro, like not having trans rights. And I think that that is confusing for people when they're like, but you are trans. Like, how could you support something that is actively trying to take away your own rights as well as other people in your community? Whereas Caitlin's argument is like, I'm not a exactly like you said, I'm not a single issue voter. And I'm particularly when it comes to fiscal thing, you know, like this is something that Caitlin says. And people are like, what? Like, how can you care more about taxes or money than human rights? So that's kind of the way that it's framed. I know that you obviously don't agree with that based on the look on your face.
Speaker 1:I don't agree with that at all. I also think, too, it's like, I think people say that Republicans don't care about trans rights or are against trans rights, and I I just don't find that to be true. I think what Republicans in general believe is that they don't want kids to be medicalized, and they don't want trans people to compete in opposite, you know, like the in sports. But they don't, they're not like, we don't want them to have rights.
Speaker 2:We don't think that they believe transness is real. That's not true.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is. That's not true. Major figureheads in the conservative movement will say that's there are people do say that, but that's not what the the stance of the Republican Party is, is that transness isn't real.
Speaker 2:I don't know the stance of the Republican Party, but what I've seen of big figureheads in the conservative movement say there are two sexes, two genders. I'm not like we we obviously talked about this in the TERF talk. A lot of people who are TERFs tend to be more right where they're like, they don't even acknowledge that transness is real in that sense. Where they're like, no, that's just a man with a kink who's trying to invade women's spaces. So it's like that's I think some people say that for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And but that's not the mainstream Republican Party that's saying that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I that's what I see on the internet.
Speaker 1:So that's that's different than Republican senators and congressmen. So I think I think that's I think that's hard for people to understand and they think like you know, you should vote for your self-interest. But if what's most important to Caitlin are these other self-interests that she has, you know, over her own transness, like I don't that's not a controversy, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's just more confusing. I think people don't understand it. And and this is like where the kind of crux of the issue is, I would say, is that and you see Caitlin go back and forth about this a lot where she's like, I can't represent everyone, every trans person, which is fair enough. No, and by the way, like any community, whether they're marginalized or not, I don't think it's actually productive to have this kind of like monolith culture around them. Like all trans people fit into this box. And if you deviate from that box, then you're not really trans, you know? That's not productive. No, and I understand you didn't sign up for this, you know? And also, you do have this huge platform. You can do so much with it. And so, and this is what I was saying is like, I'm I'm surprised that people are let down by her because I'm like, what did you expect from this person? Like, she didn't exactly have a backbone before. Like, I don't know. No, I don't know why the expectation was so high, or if it was more of just like, oh my gosh, this huge person with so much power, so much eyeballs on them has the courage to come out. This is huge for the trans community initially, just like having these conversations, but then seeing what they stand for, how they vote, whatever it is, like seeing their personality. And then that's what happens is people will be like, oh, well, kind of the same way that it's like Ellen's gay. So you must all act like Ellen, right? Like it's like that, you know, people try to like lump you in with these major celebrates, especially the first celebrities of their kind, to kind of be out. And so I think that's where people feel really let down by her. And Caitlin kind of goes back and forth of like, I want to be there for the trans people and like represent them and and do all of this good for the community. But on the other hand, has a lot of criticisms of the LGBTQ community, some of which we've said as well, where it's like you're really preaching this kind of like love and light and inclusivity and and love is love, but then you're also super judgmental, and there's actually a lot of hate that causes division within our own community instead of unification. Um but I also think that part of that is again Caitlin's inability to take criticism, to take accountability, to where it's like you just kind of dismiss it as, oh, you're just being hateful. And it's like, well, maybe there's some truth in what they're saying, or like listen.
Speaker 1:I just think that they were never really a figurehead for anything before. Like they were an athlete. Right. They never really stood for anything. They were on a TV show as a kind of supporting character. Like Bruce never really did anything besides be an athlete and then like I guess give some speeches afterwards. And then people are expecting Caitlin to be this figurehead for the trans community and trans rights. And it's like, well, they're just a conservative person who came out essentially, and that was really disappointing to people. But like you said, it's like I don't know what people expected from them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So, anyways, the main kind of issue, the main critique, controversy has to do with the trans part of it of like, is this person kind of like equipped to be that figurehead for us? There was also this whole controversy around the Danish girl movie, which was we kind of talked about this, not about this specific movie, but we talked about it in just just recently. I don't remember what episode, but where it was a cis actor that played a trans person in the Danish girl movie. And a lot of people, a lot of people in the trans and LGBTQ community were like, this sucks. Like this, why didn't you hire either a trans actor or at least like a trans person to consult on what the trans oh we talked about this in the Elbert episode?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Where it's like this was a lesbian's version of the trans experience. Like, why didn't you ask a trans person what the trans experience was like for the writing and just the whole storyline? And Caitlin was like, I thought the movie was great. And everyone was like, Are you serious?
Speaker 1:Like, that's so it was a beautiful movie.
Speaker 2:I never, I never watched it, but Caitlin. This is the sense that I get is also partially just like, she's old.
Speaker 1:She's something that I was gonna say is like they're just an old person. This person comes from a totally different generation, they're more conservative and just like and just like why can't we?
Speaker 2:She she had just kind of said, like, why can't we all just be entertained? You know, like I thought it was just an entertainment thing. It was a good movie.
Speaker 1:It's a good movie. Like, why can't I just enjoy it?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it is, I think, a generational difference where our generation and below is like, but we want it to be perfect. We want it, you know, and we talk about this, we criticize it as well. Where it's like, no, don't just take scraps. We're not saying, like, just take what they give you. No, like we are allowed to ask for more.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But also not- I think if they made the Danish Girl Now in 2025, it would be a totally different movie. They'd have different, they'd have chosen different actors. Like, like we said 10 years ago, things were very different.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Uh, especially as it relates to like all things around the trans topic and trans rights and trans and media. It was totally different. Like, things have changed a lot in the last 10 years. And so I think if they made that movie now, it would they would have had a transactor and all of those things would have happened. Yeah. There's more than that. It was it really was the I would say 2015 was the start of things really starting to change and this being a real conversation.
Speaker 2:Marriage being legalized, like just in general, queerness kind of had this big I don't want to say resurgence because that's always there. But yeah, it was like huge rising. And and Caitlin was like wanting to meet the actor, and people were like, if you go and kind of publicly endorse this movie, that's almost giving the like trans stamp of approval. And we as a trans community do not approve it.
Speaker 1:And they're like, Don't put that pressure on me to like if I do something that that means I'm speaking for the whole trans community. Like, yeah. They're kind of like, Don't put that on me.
Speaker 2:But that's where Caitlin flip-flops, where sometimes she's like, I want to be this for people and I want to be that figurehead. But then as soon as you have that pressure from people, then she's like, It's not, you can't put it all on me. And that's where I'm like, dude, you can't have it both ways. Yeah. You know, you can say, I don't want to be a figurehead and I'm not gonna speak for trans people. I'm just gonna live my life and live my truth, and then do that. But don't say you want it, and then once you have it, complain about what it entails. Yeah. That's what I think. So I mean, I think it probably goes without saying that when it comes to trans people in sports, which I think is interesting considering, like you said, Bruce was an athlete. That I initially I thought that Caitlin just didn't think trans people belonged in cis sports, you know? And that's actually not what she thinks. She thinks that trans women, right? Yeah, trans women don't belong in women's sports because of the biological disadvantage, because men tend to have more physical strength, biological men, and if they transition to women, it's like they are going to have this advantage. Whereas Caitlin believes that trans men, fine, you want to compete in men's sports, like because you don't have the advantage. And the whole kind of basis of her argument is sports should be fair. And this biological difference creates unfairness. So I thought that was kind of interesting. Obviously, she gets a lot of pushback for that.
Speaker 1:Um and I think a lot of people would agree with that though. Of course, a lot of people she's gonna get a lot of pushback, but I bet a lot of people agree with that.
Speaker 2:Uh, of course, a lot of people agree with that. It's just uh not a lot of, I would say, queer people agree with that. So it comes back to that like you can't speak for all of us. And just because you're an Olympian and a trans person, it gives you even more authority. So people are like, cool, now you're reinforcing this, you know, and how do you make this rule? Like, oh, you can go here, but not you there. It's just, it's very messy. It's very, it's you're never gonna please everybody. Yeah. So yeah, those are the kind of there's one major controversy that I did skip over that has nothing to do with any of this, which is that Bruce Jenner, when they were still Bruce Jenner, had a fatal car crash where they killed someone. It was an accident, but yeah, they killed someone. And um, you know, like they ended up settling. It he didn't go to jail or anything like that. And it was it was a total accident. It's not like he was drunk, you know, there was nothing nefarious happening, but this is something that people do like to throw in Caitlin's face of like, whatever, you're a murderer, you know. So it's something that does come up. It does come up and it is worth mentioning. How long ago is that? It was in 2015. So Oh, that's just 10 years ago? Yeah. What they were already Caitlin at that point. I don't know if it was before they were Caitlin. It's I think it was still when they were Bruce.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Um, so yeah, it is just a another thing in there. That's horrific. Very horrific. And kind of similarly to what we talked about before, even with his own br when it was Bruce's brother's death, of that kind of like, well, you know, it wasn't my fault. And and the way that it has been kind of written or spoken about, even though it has been very brief, is again, most people, even if it is a total accident, if you accidentally kill someone, like that would haunt me for my life. Forever. Yeah. And who knows whether Caitlin is being tight-lipped because of legal reasons, who knows? But people perceive it as that same kind of lack of empathy, cold, like what it doesn't seem like you care. Yeah, you know? So that's Caitlin.
Speaker 1:There's a lot in there.
Speaker 2:There's a lot in there. They've been through a lot. So much. So much, like such a full life. Um one other thing I do want to say. What? Because I was like, do I because Caitlin has still never said like I'm gay. I was like, do I label this WLW lore? You know? I don't know. Because do you remember what WLW even means, honey? No. It's not women love Wednesdays, it's women love women. And Caitlin, you know, so it's like another way to say a gay girl. Not everyone who's WLW is a legend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we know she's dating men or women?
Speaker 2:That's why. I was like, should I just call it Lore? But she's had this kind of assumed relationship with a much younger woman. Her name was Sophia, I forget the last name. Sophia Hutchins, who was also actually a trans woman. Okay. And she was Caitlin's manager and rumored lover for a very long time. They were very, very close. And she tragically died in an ATV accident just a few months ago in July 2025.
Speaker 1:And that's supposed to be Caitlin's partner of the last eight to 10 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like a long time. But nobody has ever confirmed it. So it's like neither Sophia nor Caitlin have ever confirmed it. And even after her passing, Caitlin never, so it's like it just felt even weirder to almost include, like, I don't want to speculate on someone who isn't here, but that's sad. But that is another, you know, her her accident had nothing to do with Caitlin. So it's not like a controversy of Caitlin's. But other than that, I think there was just kind of like rumors of her being with people, but everyone just assumed that her and Sophia were together.
Speaker 1:So oh my goodness, it's so sad.
Speaker 2:So yeah. Who's the problem? You got a Caitlyn Jenner version of who's the problem?
Speaker 1:Well, I have one, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So Caitlin versus Chris. Mm-hmm. Okay. So Caitlin is rumored to be worth like $20 to $30 million, whereas like Chris Jenner is rumored to be worth more than $200 million. And I would honestly, I'm honestly surprised it's not more like $500 million.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And only 20 mil. That's chump chain. I mean, but they have a Malibu house, so that's probably like five to ten of it. Like, that's not that's actually kind of crazy that they're not worth more than 20 million. Right. For everything that they've everything that they've accomplished and and whatnot. And then for Chris to be worth 10 to 20 times them. So my question is like, if Bruce was what essentially made Chris Jenner rich, like turned her into the mommager that she is, and the creating of the keeping up with the Kardashians, and like you talked about this in in the show of like Chris had the had control of the money, had the bank accounts, had everything. Like they got divorced, and now like Chris is worth like 20 times more than Caitlin. Like, who's the problem? Like, how did that even happen? And like, should Caitlyn be worth more like for creating Chris Jenner?
Speaker 2:I don't know. It's like, well, you didn't, she didn't create Chris Jenner. Chris Jenner used Bruce's name to create Chris Jenner.
Speaker 1:But then Chris created this machine around keeping up with the Kardashians, and somehow Bruce slash Caitlin didn't really get anything from that.
Speaker 2:But but my question is, why didn't you fucking fight for it? Like nobody forced you to be passive.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The same way that nobody forced Chris to then hustle and be this mom and like go above and beyond. These are all your own choices. So it's like it did, it was built off the back of your name in Hollywood.
Speaker 1:But Chris turned it into what it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like you got complacent. No, nobody made you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the biggest argument for Chris is that like everything really took off after they got divorced, and all like the kids really took off, and she's taking cuts from all of her kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so like that's really when she made the most of her money was after they got divorced, and Caitlin was off kind of just chilling in Malibu at that point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Caitlin and we just watched this most recent episode of the Kardashians on Hulu. Like the most recent, because Caitlin comes back and she even makes a comment because they're selling the house that was the house where everything was filmed in the Kardashians. They're selling it, so they all come back to say goodbye. And Caitlin and Chris was like, Oh, you want to buy it? And Caitlin's like, I can't afford that. You know, it like made a few comments about like, I can't afford this lifestyle anymore. And it was like, I just don't feel bad for you. I'm sorry. You still have $20 million, first of all. You had every bit of opportunity, if not more. You were a freaking white man in Hollywood. Like you had more opportunity and more privilege. You could have gone the Chris Jenner route and you chose not to.
Speaker 1:Chris hustled.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I don't know.
Speaker 1:And sold out all her kids, you know, for billions.
Speaker 2:Another thing, Caitlin wore white to Brody's wedding. Just a fun fact, as the, you know, mother of the groom. So she's just kind of that bitch, you know? You're like, what? What?
Speaker 1:That's weird.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean, my Who's the Problem is is kind of similar, where it is, it's like, I guess I just want to know, people, are you team Jenner or team Kardashian when it comes to this? Like, are you do you think that, like you said, it's not just as much about the net worth, but it's like, do you think that the Kardashians would be what they are if Bruce Jenner hadn't done his thing at the Olympics? Or do you think that Chris would have found someone else to kind of latch onto and do the same machine?
Speaker 1:I think she would have figured it out no matter what. Like, I think she would have. I mean, the argument that I've heard is that basically like Chris Jenner could have married anyone she wanted. That's what I mean. She was gonna attach herself to something like that.
Speaker 2:She's gonna make it happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she's gonna pimp and whore out her kids to become rich no matter what.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So yeah, I want to hear from you guys and see what you think if you're team Kardashian, team Jenner, and just overall what you think of the Caitlin episode. We love ya. We love it. See you next week. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the show. We're so happy to have you here. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you're listening to podcasts. We love getting commentary from you on Spotify and on YouTube. And as always, if you love this episode or any of our episodes, make sure to share it with a friend or somebody who will appreciate the conversation.
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