Wives Not Sisters
A playful, unfiltered podcast where a married wlw couple dives into the chaos of modern relationships, pop culture, queer lore, and all the little things most people wouldn’t admit out loud.
Wives Not Sisters is a queer-led podcast where marriage meets humor, honesty, and a little too much sharing but in the best way. We’re here to normalize nuance in relationships -- from romantic, platonic, familial, and everything in between- and to create a space where deep conversations and dumb jokes can coexist. Through real talk, playful debates, and just enough oversharing, we’re building a community that’s reflective, ridiculous, and radically relatable.
Wives Not Sisters
Chosen Family, Holidays, and Saying No to Expectations
Family, queerness, religion, and the holidays—this episode goes deep. Alix and Kayla open up about navigating strained family relationships, missed weddings, religious rejection, reconciliation, and what it really takes to protect your peace as a queer couple during the holidays.
From engagement fallout and parents not showing up, to rebuilding trust, setting boundaries, and creating chosen family traditions in Nicaragua—this is an honest, emotional, and deeply relatable conversation for anyone who’s ever felt unseen by their family.
00:00 – Intro: married, not related, definitely codependent
02:30 – Highs, lows & weirds of the week
05:20 – Dreaming up a queer camp & chosen family
07:00 – Family estrangement, phone anxiety & emotional triggers
11:15 – Holidays, big families & complicated dynamics
13:30 – Engagement fallout & family refusing to attend the wedding
18:30 – Feeling invisible as a queer couple
23:00 – Acceptance vs. avoidance in family systems
29:00 – Therapy, boundaries & rebuilding relationships
32:45 – Healing moments, unexpected growth & hope
38:30 – Redefining holidays & creating new traditions
43:00 – Religion, queerness & family rupture
51:00 – Confrontation, truth, grief & clarity
01:02:30 – Choosing peace, boundaries & moving forward
#QueerPodcast #LGBTQPodcast #ChosenFamily #QueerMarriage #HolidayBoundaries #ReligiousTrauma #FamilyEstrangement #LesbianPodcast #HealingJourneys #QueerStories #WivesNotSisters
Connect with us on social media: IG: @wivesnotsisterspod | TikTok: @wivesnotsisterspod | Youtube: @wivesnotsisterspod
Follow our hosts on Instagram: @kaylalanielsen @alix_tucker
You can also watch our episodes on Youtube at youtube.com/@wivesnotsisterspod!
Hey guys, it's Alix and Kayla. And we're married. Definitely not related.
Speaker 2:We stopped podcasting for what? Two weeks and you've already forgotten the intro. I don't know what it is. We're married. Not related. Definitely codependent. But in a cute way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that one. We're back. We're a little rusty in case you haven't been able to tell so far in the last 30 seconds. We've had stuff going on in our lives. Yeah. So before we get into everything, you know, I have to give a little shout out to our listeners. Thank you. Thanks for chiming in the conversation. We've had a lot of commentary, particularly around the Turf Talk episode. Super interesting. And yeah, just like every time, I mean, I say this all the time, but commenting not only on the socials, but on Spotify, on YouTube, all of that is so helpful. And if you are someone that is a diehard listener and you've been listening every week, which I know you're out there because I get messages of people being like, I can't wait till Tuesday. It's my favorite day of the week. We love you. And also, it would be so helpful if you would just write that in a little review. Um wherever you listen to podcasts, because it does really help with our visibility. Definitely does. And share it with your friends. Yeah, I was gonna say we're share it with a friend. And also if you listen and you're like, these dumb bitches like listen to this episode how stupid these girls are. I'm sure a lot of people think that too. Share it too. But but yeah, so we're just gonna dive in.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But it should be an interesting one today, but you what? It's my turn to lead. I don't know. Why are you giving me that face? How is that?
Speaker 2:It's just my face. I'm tired.
Speaker 1:I know. Yeah, I woke up early thanks to someone in the moments where people want to know what's going on in our lives. We're wearing cozy clothes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going to platties after this. It's also the weekend. We never record on the weekends because we do try to only work during the week and not on the weekends.
Speaker 1:Weekends are for family time.
Speaker 2:But we got a lot of travels coming up. I'm sure a lot of our listeners are also traveling and moving around a lot for the holidays. And so we had to adjust a little bit.
unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you get to see us in our cozy clothes. In our cozies before Pilates. And it's my turn to lead today. Yeah. What do you got? So I don't know if you ever did this tradition. I've done this a few times where you know you're around the dinner table and whatnot, and you kind of like you share your high and low of the week. Mm-hmm. That's what we're gonna do today. We're gonna do your high, your low, and your weird of the week. Oh, that'll be so I'd like to I'd like to hear that from you.
Speaker 2:Okay, hi. This is gonna be so annoying. I'm gonna be that bitch. What? That's like it was so cool, but I can't share it yet. You know? It's that. You know what it is, obviously.
Speaker 1:That's what you're gonna pick. That's not fair to the listeners.
Speaker 2:I know it's pick something else. But we well, okay, the good news is we're gonna share it eventually. It's just not yet. Yeah. You know, so that's all I'm gonna say. That because what that is the high. Of course. That is the high.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I have to be that annoying person saying that thing, but don't worry, you're gonna find out.
Speaker 1:I thought that your high was gonna be, you know, you're away from me for two weeks. And now we're back home. You're back home with your wife and you know, seeing your wife and your dog. That wasn't it? Great, great. So, yes. Or you made some new friends on your retreat. There's power lesbians on your retreat. You've literally been manifesting more power lesbians. So well, that was more like that was last week.
Speaker 2:Okay. My retreat was last week. So well, shout out to all the power lesbians out there, and just in general, this is a high of my month. I will say, in general, it has been so cool because in like on my retreats, but also so for anyone who doesn't know, we own a retreat center in Nicaragua, which you're going to see very soon because we're gonna go set up our studio in Nicaragua in two weeks. So you're gonna see us recording there because we stay there for a portion of the year. But so we have I run my retreats, and then we also have teachers that rent out our space and run their own retreats of all kinds. We have so many queers come. It is amazing. And oftentimes, like with my retreats, people know I'm queer, but the power lesbian didn't. She happened to find the retreat online and she had no idea who I was. She's like, Yeah, sure. And so many times we have queers come that show up in Nika and they're like, Oh, I didn't know if I was gonna like how I'm saying, yeah. And then they're like, What? The owners are gay?
Speaker 1:This is the best thing I've ever heard. People love it when they find out it's so cute because it's just like, imagine you're traveling to some remote part of the world. Imagine how stoked we would be if we showed up and the owners were gay. For sure. Yes. We were so stoked. We were in Sumba. There were two other gay couples at this little tiny resort we're at. Like it was amazing.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So it's it's like the best feeling.
Speaker 2:Which, okay, I'm just tangenting slightly because I do just want to plant this seed. And please, anybody listening, if this seed sounds worth watering, I need you to DM. Oh, I know what you're gonna say. I need you, you don't have to write anything public, but just DM me and say yes, and I'll know what you're talking about. If you don't want, okay, like I'm serious. I'm no code words, just yes, please, or yes, I'm in, whatever. Anything affirming. I really want to do a queer camp.
Speaker 1:We've been talking about this for five years. For yeah, ever since we got the land and we were gonna open the retreat center, we we were like, one day we just want to host a queer camp at Still Salty.
Speaker 2:Yes. And because originally we were thinking of it more like youth focused, but then we're like, oh, you know, maybe that's more of like a charitable part of it. But then having an adult queer camp where we're encouraging queers to not only come together, find community, find other queer friends, but travel together, yeah, traveling. New experiences, and we have there's so much fun stuff to do. I will obviously teach a yoga class or two. We have surfing, we have hiking, salsa nights, we have salsa nights, we have boat tours, we have turtle releases. Like it is the happiest, best place on earth. There's so much to do. It's like summer camp. It's like summer camp, full of arts and crafts, anything you want to do, anything you want to do, we can do. It's very nature inspired. It would be so freaking fun. And since we started the podcast, I was like, Wait, the these are the people that would come, you know. Like, we have our little queer crew now.
Speaker 1:That's really all we want is queer community.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. So if you are interested, just a little DM. Yes, yes, I'm in. Okay, so that was a big tangent of my high.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:My low, yeah, was probably making you cry. Honey. Unintentionally. I don't know if I made you cry, but you started crying because of something I did. But I did feel really bad, and then I almost started crying.
Speaker 1:You did start crying.
Speaker 2:No, they didn't fall. Well, they were my eyes were watering. Yes. Yeah. But I did, I felt really bad because I you I felt bad that you were that upset, even if, you know, like I didn't fully understand.
Speaker 1:I don't know the last time I cried either.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's been like a year or more. No. Oh, really? Yeah.
Speaker 1:You remember the last time?
Speaker 2:I remember it was because it was over some things later. I don't remember what it was, but regardless. So that was my low. The weird will lend well to this week's episode because we're talking about family and the holidays. And a little spoiler alert, I'm not super close with my family. So we're out. At the moment. At the moment. I could change. I have been very close to them in the past. And yes, it could change. So we're gonna get into that in the episode. But my weird is related to my father, who I currently we have not spoken or seen each other in over a year at this point. We have texted a few times, but we haven't like talked on the phone and haven't seen each other in over a year. And I have a Google Voice number. Okay, that makes me sound weird. I'm not, I'm not like doing weird catfishy things. I just wanted to preserve my original phone number because that was tied to so many two-factors. It was like whatever, all this stuff. I was living abroad. So I gave up my my US SIM card at a certain point. Once I was like, I'm never coming back to the States. Wanted to preserve my original number and so started a Google Voice number to be able to do that. Since moving back to the States almost six years ago now, I have a a new number. Like that is my phone number, which is the number, by the way, that my dad does text me on. Like he knows my number, but I probably once a week get a missed call from him on my Google Voice number.
Speaker 1:And I know. And we're like, is it a is it a butt dial?
Speaker 2:Sometimes it is because I there's a three-minute voice mail and it's just like you know, it's like clearly he doesn't, it's not in his pocket. But then like this happened, it's like, but if you leave a missed call and it's not a butt dial, were you intentionally what's happening? It gives me like I call it like Google voice up. And I just go into the spiral every time because it's like what I see a miscall from somebody that I haven't spoken to in a very long time. And then I'm like, oh, they left a voicemail, and then I listen, okay, it was a mistake. Or the the missed call without it's just it's a lot. It's a big roller coaster of emotions. Yeah, and it's been happening a lot in the last few months. So I'm like, it just keeps happening. It's really walking with me, like I maybe.
Speaker 1:If he is, honestly, it's amazing. It's really funny.
Speaker 2:But I don't, or does he think I've called you so many times? What do you mean? What do you mean I haven't reached out to you? I keep calling you every week and you don't answer. But like, why don't you call the number that you text?
Speaker 1:Yeah, or text and be like, hey, I just called you.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I don't know. So we have no idea.
Speaker 2:It just goes in the weird category. It is weird category. That is weird. That's really it's a lie. It's really weird. If you when you like all of a sudden look at your phone, you're like, I know that feeling of like, oh my god, yeah, when you're not expecting someone's name to be on your phone. Yeah. So yeah, this week, that's what we're talking about. Phone anxiety is real. No shit. Remember when you FaceTimed me before, way before we were together. But you FaceTimed me. This was cute. You FaceTimed me because you wanted to see if I wanted anything from Whole Foods before. I was trying to be nice to bring you something from home. I was so I literally threw my phone across the room. I was like, oh my god, why is she calling me like this? And FaceTimed me. I was terrified. I thought it would be fun to see you and see if you needed anything. Yeah, it's a normal, nice thing, but it should have been an indication that I maybe liked you.
Speaker 1:Maybe. Maybe. Or you have hardcore phone anxiety. I do. I don't love it. So you already alluded to this, but we're talking about family today, especially in the context of the holidays. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because we're recording this is before Thanksgiving. Just a few days before. Yeah. And we're traveling for Thanksgiving. So we're going to I'm from Wisconsin originally, but most of my family now lives in Minnesota. Yeah. So we're going back to Minnesota and you know, spending four or five days there and to celebrate things. Yeah, like okay, like a week.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But my family will be there for like four or five days. And and yeah, I'm the youngest of six kids. And, you know, all my siblings except for one are married, and all of them that are married have kids.
Speaker 2:And it's also like just to explain, being the youngest of six, so your sister, whose house we're staying at, is in her 50s. Like her kids are closer in age to us than she is. Yeah. So it's a really wide range. And then also because of that, your dad is much older than like a typical parent of our age.
Speaker 1:He's in his 80s. I was going towards there's going to be like 20 tuckers in the house because there's just so many kids. And then, you know, all my siblings have kids, and there's just, and you know, everybody has like partners, and like you said, my sister's kids are all, you know, in their 20s and 30s. And so they all have spouses and partners now, too. So it's just like there's going to be a lot of us. A lot. You're stepping into a chaotic.
Speaker 2:And some of the kids are five. And then some of the kids are 30, but they're still the kids, you know. So it's like it's just a range and a lot going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But so, yeah, so we're traveling. It's big, it's big travel weekend, and but it's it should be an exciting and chaotic chaotic time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the reason that it's kind of crazy, and the reason we're even bringing it up is because two years ago we went back for Thanksgiving to see your family, and that was the first time you had seen them or really started talking to them again in two years.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, you know, like we We've come a long way. We've come a very, very, very long way.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We've been spending a lot more time with them, but yeah, you know, two years ago it was like the first time we'd seen them in two years or something.
Speaker 2:Well, do you want to share with the class why?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, that's where I was gonna go. And so, yeah, we we've come a long way. And okay, where do we start? Why did we why did I not really see my family for two years or so? Well, it really started when we got after we got engaged. So initially, when we got engaged, I felt like my family was really excited for us. You know, there was like just general excitement overall. But then as the wedding planning progressed and, you know, things started to move forward and the wedding date like grew nearer, then my family basically all they all told me that they weren't coming to the wedding.
Speaker 2:Well, I should also mention, I only just now remembered this. I didn't I hadn't even met anyone in your family because of COVID.
Speaker 1:At that time.
Speaker 2:At that time.
Speaker 1:When we first got engaged. That's what I mean. But before we even really started planning the wedding, we you we went to see them a couple months later. You met them all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but we had already been together for a year and a half. But that's again because your dad is much older, COVID was happening, like we couldn't travel. We were being super cautious at that time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was the first year of COVID, and then we got engaged. So, um, okay, so, anyways, so we were planning the wedding, we're gonna get married in Nicaragua, we were building our place, and then my family told me that they weren't going to come. And it was very much like we're too scared to travel to Nicaragua, like it's this like this country, the way they were describing it, they felt like it was like a war zone or something, which it's just so funny because, like, you know, we go there Montel the year, we've driven all up and down this country, like it's it's a very safe and very nice country, but you know, it for whatever reason, some my family from the Midwest, they just like have it in their mind that it's like this scary place to go and it's like super dangerous.
Speaker 2:Well, it was partially the dangerous thing, and partially again, back to the age thing with your dad and just like health concerns, which and this is more valid in my opinion, where we are super remote. So the closest hospital is an hour away. The closest good hospital is four hours away.
Speaker 1:For sure.
Speaker 2:So it was like, you know, there they were just like, what if anything happened? Like, we don't have this kind of infrastructure that we're used to, which I can understand more.
Speaker 1:But yeah, the safety factor was I also just mind blowing. It was like I it was really hard for me because I'm like, first of all, this the he the biggest milestone in my life at that point, you know, and now no one from my family is going to come and support me. If I it left me feeling extremely hurt and like my family didn't care, honestly, because in a way that I don't know, it was like there's like, yeah, we're not coming. It's like, what? Like, how no, no one's just no one's coming to our wedding. Like, what how is that even possible? And when we'd first said it, everyone was excited to come. So it was like something happened, and then they all decided that it this was like they couldn't do it anymore.
Speaker 2:I think the thing that was also kind of like what you just said, you know, like if somebody is gonna tell you hard news, bad news, whatever, like there is the delivery is almost just as important as whatever you're about to say, because it's like if they would have been like, look, I know this is gonna be real, you know, we want to do everything like FaceTime us. I don't know, you know, like we're trying to be like, look, we want to be there, but we just really feel scared or uncomfortable, but we love and care about you so much. I don't, you know what I mean? Like if they had framed it in a way that still helped you to feel supported, you would still be disappointed. But I it felt so nonchalant and like, yes, no big deal, right? And you're like, what? Yes, it is a big deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was just it was extremely hurtful. And so that created a lot of conflict in my family because I was unwilling to let it go. Because for me, it was like, this is unacceptable that you guys are not coming to my wedding. Like, I maybe could have got on board with like my parents not coming because of whatever with the travel, but I everyone else, I just felt like it was completely unacceptable. And it just felt like we don't want to prioritize our money and our time in this way to be there for you. That's genuinely what it felt like more, it was more to me than anything else. Because I'm like, if you actually asked me about it or researched, I think you would find out like this, you're you're overreacting in this way.
Speaker 2:And so I think you also kind of felt like, why would I have my wedding someplace so dang? Like, why I wouldn't put you in that position and I was like to endanger yourself and your family to come to this thing. I would never do that to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and my thing was like, we're gonna have this amazing wedding, and then you're not gonna be there, and then you you're the ones that are gonna have to live with that for the rest of your life that you didn't choose to come to your sister's wedding because you were too scared to, and then everyone had the best time of their lives and you weren't there. Like for me, it just felt like this is just unacceptable.
Speaker 2:It was also kind of it was yes, the wedding, like you said, that was a huge milestone, but it was also because it was at our property and at the retreat center, which was a another huge milestone. So it was part, it was both of those things where it's like this is part of the life I'm creating, and you want you wanted them to be a part of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to see them and support me. And it just felt like they didn't care. Right. That's what it felt like to me. I'm sure that's not how it felt like to them.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But it created a ton of conflict because I was unwilling to let it go. I just felt like this for me, that's not how you treat family. That's not how you show up for family. And so it started to create like a conflict around the values in our families and like brought up a lot of the family system kind of things that that go on in every different family, but it brought up all those things for me and just being like, well, this is what I value, and clearly that's not what you value. And then now we're having conflict over it and and trying to like work through it. But it was extremely painful and led to some really sad conversations where then I stopped speaking to most pretty much all my family for over a year, close to two years. And um, and so that's where it started, I would say. And but then I would say, as well, at that same time, there were things that came up that were challenging in a different way. And like, for example, when we went home and I got to bring you home for after our engagement, we came home under the guise of like, I want you to meet my future partner. Like, this is an engagement celebration.
Speaker 2:Plus, we were already married. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like I'm bringing this person home. It's supposed to be an engagement celebration. We got there. There was no like celebration. And for me, that was like incredibly painful. So I think like just some of the things that came up were what I realized is like it sometimes when you're different than everybody else, in whatever way, whether it's you're gay, whether it's it doesn't really matter what your difference is, a lot of times it's people aren't like homophobic or you know, whatever phobic or whatever, you know, anti-thing you are. It's more that like because you're different in some way, they maybe have some discomfort and they don't always know how to talk to you about things in a normal way. And so that was really happening after we got engaged, where, for example, it's like normally if we were a straight couple and we got engaged, people be like, Oh, I want to see your ring. Or when are you guys gonna have babies? Like, that's like the first question that people ask you. And those things were not happening for us. And it what made it even more contrasting was that like my niece, who at the time, you know, was like 23, probably. And like she was still in college, she was like 23 and like had a boyfriend. Literally, people at we're at the same tables then they're like, When are you guys gonna have babies? It's like, first of all, they're not even engaged. Well, no, they've been dating for like a year, and you're like, When are you guys gonna get married and have babies? And it's like, why are you asking us if we're gonna have children?
Speaker 2:Like, we're just the youngest that I was talking about, the five-year-old at the time, he was two, I think. Yeah, and so he was you know growing out of being a baby, and someone had said, like, oh, we want more babies in the family, like we miss, like, you're getting too big, we're ready for a new baby, and they're like, Yeah, who's gonna have a baby next? And kind of turn, so it's like us a third, we were in our 30s-aged couple sitting there, and then you're I don't even know if your niece was in a relationship yet. She was, yeah.
Speaker 1:But they've been together for like a year, a second. I don't know. And it's like, oh, when are you guys gonna have married and have a probably you?
Speaker 2:And we're like, wait, what?
Speaker 1:Like, we're like 35, ready to have kids. You also we've said that to people that we want kids, and no one's like, When do you guys want to have kids? Is that something you want? Like, no one's asking us those types of questions. They're like asking a 23-year-old with a boyfriend those questions, yeah. And it just felt like what it made me feel was more that I just felt unseen, like invisible, yeah, and invisible in my family, and that my family doesn't really want to know me or really know who I am, and that made made me feel really sad because for my whole life, it's like I really prioritized my family, and I just felt like not prioritized. And and so it made me really look at things a lot differently, and it and it created a lot of pain.
Speaker 2:And okay, so I think that this is also really important because I think a lot of people probably like a lot of queer people have experienced things, similar things in their family where they're like, No, my family is accepting, they love me, you know, listen to our coming out episodes. Yeah, my family loves me. Your dad literally said you're my soulmate when you came out to him. And like you said, your dad is a mid-he's almost 85 from the Midwest, like has a southern twing, extremely conservative, older man from a different generation. You were terrified to tell him, and his response was, You're my soulmate, and crying, like beautiful reaction, so sweet response, everything. Yeah, my family's been so like supportive of me coming out. Yeah, there's so much of that there. And also there's like these undertones where you're like, Oh, but you don't treat me the same as all of my straight siblings, and so it leads me to believe it is because of the gay factor. And also, I think part of it is the culture that we're in now, where there is in general just like a fear around saying the wrong thing.
Speaker 1:I think that's what it is.
Speaker 2:I because it's like I experienced that just going to the hairdresser. But it's like that person feels me.
Speaker 1:That fear of saying the wrong thing like prevents you from connecting to that person in your life, which is what was so sad to me. Right. And it makes you feel as the person that like wants to be known that you don't care.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or that like you don't matter in the same way, or it just like makes you feel more othered.
Speaker 1:Or that you or that you are uncomfortable with the fact that we're gonna have kids or something like that, which I don't think is actually true. But no, it leaves because it's unsaid, it leaves all of this upfront interpretation. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's not that. It's like okay, your sister is going to steal our baby as soon as we have one. She cannot wait. She's been saying this to you since you like started your period. When are you gonna have a baby?
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:They're so stoked for whenever that time comes. But I think it's like a ooh, like you know how to ask if you know, straight people being the majority, you know how to ask the questions in these ways. Who knows if even if we were a straight couple but had to do IVF, maybe they would have felt just as uncomfortable because it's just foreign to them. Oh, for sure. I think they would have. It's like, oh, and and that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:It's more about like anything that is different. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes. And sometimes I think too, with an opposite sex, so it's like your brothers or your dad, sometimes, depending on the relationship. I'm not saying all brothers or dads are like this. They're like, I don't really want to ask questions about my sister's ovaries, like eggs, and I don't know. Like they get weird about it. Some guys do. It just feels like too much. So yeah, it's it's hard because it's like you can understand why that might happen. And also it doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think it's just like people want people want to feel like the people who love and care about them want to know who they are.
Speaker 2:And I think it's also, we've talked about this a lot lately. Something that's also really important is that it's like, let's say even their decision not to do that had homophobic undertones to it, even if it's not intentional, you know, all of those things we've already said. Using a word like homophobia or homophobic, even if that is true in like what is happening, it can shut down the conversation right away because then that person feels attacked. It's like, what the fuck? Why are you calling me homophobic? I love you. I've never done anything, you know? So it can make it hard sometimes to broach those conversations because you're like, okay, what this is what's happening, even if it's not intentional. But like, how do I share that with you without you feeling attacked? Like I'm attacking your character.
Speaker 1:It's like, it's just like not worth it to me to like use that word, you know? Cause it's like, yeah, it's like who knows actually where the discomfort is coming from. Maybe it's that they don't want to make you feel uncomfortable, right? It could be like a million things. And so it, but I agree, it makes it really tricky because it I think it shuts down the conversation from going farther.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it also sometimes makes it hard to have the conversation at all because you're like, how else do I explain this? You know, or like they are going to insinuate that I think they still are homophobic or whatever. You know, it's like it makes it really hard to have the conversation because, you know, like, and I'm not saying your family acted that way or like felt attacked or got angry about it, but it's like that is common where people are like, Cool. So you think, you know, we've talked about this a lot of like how easily the word racist is thrown out now. Where it's like that word 10 years ago used to hold so much more weight, where if someone said that, it was like, whoa. Whereas now it's like you get called that all the time, just existing on the internet, you know? And it's so it's like these words that are powerful and important have kind of lessened their meeting, but they they do still shut down a conversation. Like it makes it hard to definitely go there with someone. Definitely, definitely.
Speaker 1:So I mean, that's that's kind of like so. How did you get through it? Yeah, I think it was really hard. Like it, first of all, I would say it forced a lot of really difficult conversations, you know, one-on-one conversations with different family members. And that was really hard. It was something that I'd never really done before.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say one thing about Tuckers, they are the most avoidant people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm really conflict-avoidant myself. You're obviously my whole family is, but I am as just like as an individual myself in that way. But it was something where I was just like, I was just unwilling to let it go because it was I felt so hurt. And so I I really forced like a lot of conversations, not most of them didn't go well, but it was like I'm going to say what I feel like is true and what I need to say, and you know, and fight for what I what cared what I cared about at the time. And so that was part of it, and I feel like that was really an important part of the process. But I would say for me, I was I went to therapy, and you know, for me that process was really about finding acceptance of my family and who they are, how they show up in the world, and like really being accepting of that, yeah, like true acceptance.
Speaker 2:Because also one thing about Alex is that sometimes, like, once someone crosses you, you're really like that's it. You really have a hard time. Yeah, you're like, I don't forgive people, yeah. And so you really had to learn that, you know, not as much forgiveness, but the acceptance and like, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that I think that was one of the parts of the process was just like truly being able to like this is who my dad is, you know, accept him for who he is, and figure out what does that mean in terms of the type of relationship we have.
Speaker 1:And I did that like with each person. And um, and that was really hard because it's hard. It for me, what I was confronting was like value systems and the type of relationship that I wanted or craved with certain people in my family and not getting that back in return. And it was like accepting the type of relationship I could have with them. It doesn't mean that that can't change or get better with time. That's still like what I hope for and try for. But it's also like not expecting someone to be different than who they are and what they're capable of giving.
Speaker 2:You know, you're falling in love with who they are. And yeah, I think it was it was just a process of being able to like really accept that and be okay and ask yourself to you, by the way, you also don't have to accept that. You can decide this is unacceptable to me, you know, if whatever the situation is with someone's family, if they're like, I'm actually not okay with this kind of treatment, you know, and I can't be in a relationship with you then, but you weren't there, you know. It wasn't that you were like, Oh, I don't know if I ever want to be in a relationship with them again. But I and I think one of the things that also did help to kind of push it along was your dad's age, you know, of me being like, Yeah, for sure, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's definitely part of it is, you know, he's 84, and it's just like there's just realities around time and whatnot. And, you know, there was I think, but that's also the case with anyone, you know, regardless of their age. It's just like you never know what you never know what how much time you have with somebody. And so it's like it was an acknowledgement of that, and like, okay, do I want to keep holding on to this or do I want to try to accept what is and how I can move forward? And that doesn't mean there wasn't awkwardness in kind of trying to restart certain relationships because it definitely was awkward, but yeah, it's just like pushing through that and just like keep showing up, and then you know, over the last two years, it's just gotten so much better in a lot of different ways, and then that, you know, it's just like there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 2:And so yeah, and I think it's also a like you can accept it, and there's a difference between accepting someone as they are and just letting someone treat you however they want and accepting that behavior and being like, well, I'm just gonna keep the peace. Like it's not becoming a doormat, that's not what acceptance is. It's like allowing someone to be who they are, and then you also get to decide your own protection, boundaries, whatever you want to call it, all of the little things that you have to be like, yes, if that's how you are, that's totally acceptable. And because of that, then this is how I need to be in relation to you because of X, Y, and Z. You know, so I think it was like figuring out some of those lines and everything initially was also important. And then, you know, it's in some ways I feel like stronger now, you know? It is, yeah. We say, okay, we were just there a few months ago. Yeah. And your dad said that I was his other daughter.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's I didn't expect that. That was huge. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's like my dad, I don't know. It's just like he. I think there's multiple layers to it. I think there's like one layer of just like anyone I've ever dated, he'll just like call them my friend. You know, there's like that layer of it. And then there's just like this other layer of like, yeah.
Speaker 2:No. Or you know, that he he just calls me Kayla. Yeah. You know, which is better than what he would do with other people I was with.
Speaker 1:But and then there's this other layer of like, he's very protective of me.
Speaker 2:Right. And that's kind of normal for parents to be like, no one's good enough for my kid.
Speaker 1:So there's like, yeah, there's that. There's like no one's good enough for for me, essentially. And so there's like that layer of it. But yeah, then we were back home and he was like, Oh, I have another daughter now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which was we were like, Whoa, whoa, that is crazy.
Speaker 1:I literally, that's like mind-blowing, yeah. Amazing, yeah, mind-blowing, like huge progress. Yeah, yeah, and just in general, too, like my relationship with my dad is a lot better, and we talk about a lot more things than we used to do. Exactly. Which, you know, he's also surprised me, you know. It's like I'm I probably surprised him in certain ways, but I've also tried to open up more and test the waters for certain conversations, and he's also surprised me by sometimes like being willing to talk about things I never thought he would.
Speaker 2:Another example I just thought of is like when we had the miscarriage and everything, and like, you know what I mean? Like he almost showed up the most for for us out of anyone. Anyone, you know, and still still both still ask, How's Kayla doing? You know, it's been a year, and so and that's it's like whereas a few years before, they would never even ask about an egg retrieval, like, oh, that's awkward.
Speaker 1:No, so I remember the first time I told my dad I was gonna do an egg retrieval, and he was like, Okay, uh, I gotta go now. And immediately hung up the phone. I was like, Okay, I didn't know we couldn't have that discussion. I I was just telling you, I was thinking about doing an egg retrieval. This is before I was even dating, I think. Yes, that like totally shut down the conversation.
Speaker 2:I'm talking about the opposite sex kind of awkwardness sometimes with those things, I think is very real. Yes. So yeah, it's just it's come a very, very long way. Definitely. And we're and I will say, as someone who being the partner of the person going through that too, you know, if you have a partner that's going, because that can be very common as well, where like one person's family is great, and at that time my family was awesome, and that was super helpful.
Speaker 1:We were so close to them, we spent so much time with them, and you felt very supported and loved by that, so you didn't feel totally alone, like it was amazing, you know, that dynamic, and then it switched, but um, but you were great because you kept encouraging me to like keep trying, you know, because my nature is very much like I am avoidant, and so I would you'd be like, you know, some time has passed, like you really should call them again, or you should do this, or you should you would just like encourage me to keep trying, whereas I could just like let time continue to go on, and then there's like an awkwardness that sets in. Like it's really hard.
Speaker 2:And I think it is different for everyone because it's also like I would ask you how you're feeling. It's like I also agreed and validated everything you were feeling. I'm not gonna be like, you're being ridiculous, like just go talk to them, but also like kind of it's easier to see the bigger picture when you're not as emotionally invested as you are, it's your family and all these old dynamics coming up. So it's like, look, yes, this is hurtful. Does it need to be a deal breaker? Probably not. Time is of the essence here, you know. Like, yeah, so after a certain point, I don't remember how long it had been, then I did start pushing you more. And also was like, but if you don't, like, I will support whatever you decide to do ultimately. Yeah, you know, but I don't, it's not like I'm pushing you into this abusive relationship dynamic with a family, you know?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think uh as a partner going through that, it's like really important to be supportive and validating them, and also, you know, sometimes giving little nudges if you feel that it is helpful.
Speaker 1:And taking initiative of being No, I really appreciated it because it helped me. Like at times it would be like, Okay, I want to connect with my family again, but I do feel awkward or I don't know how to take that next step. And you would like push me to like just get over that and just try.
Speaker 2:Or I'd be like, Cool, I'll text them. Hey, what are you guys doing this weekend?
Speaker 1:Like, I will make the plans because you won't make them and then I'll Yeah, or you'd be like, Hey, we want to come home and visit you guys, you know? Can we how can we do that? Like, let's make it real instead of just like a vague thing. Yeah, and I think I really appreciated that. I think they really appreciated that too. That's why I'm a daughter now. Yeah, because you brought the family together, you know. You got us to we all went home and got everyone to go home and see everybody. So you made daughter status through all that. What can I say? So, anyways, so we're going back for Thanksgiving, and that's you know, I think it's it's healing. Every time we go home, it's like healing in a new way, I do think. And it gets better every time. And it's always enjoyable. It's all we always have such a great time, and it's always, yeah, just say it's healing in a different way. Yeah. Every single time. And so for me, and Thanksgiving was always our big holiday, you know, for the Tuckers. And so that's the one that we try to prioritize with my family, like when we can, especially. And we're we weren't going to go this year, but there's some like health things happening in my family, so we really wanted to prioritize it. And um, and so yeah, but but Christmas is not a big thing for the Tuckers. So for us, it was always like, at least for me, when some I know this is something that people struggle with in relationships, is like, how do you split holidays? Yeah. For us, it was for me, it was like that's that's the big one for my family. That would be the one I'd prioritize because for Christmas, everybody does their own family Christmas, essentially.
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially with kids. Whereas my family was more Christmas oriented and Thanksgiving, yes, like we would have gatherings, but it was never this like, oh, I really want you to be there for Thanksgiving, you know, it's kind of it's just not as important. So I think that always helped it as far as like our split, and then we more unintentionally, so we we pretty much never spend Christmas with our extended family unless someone wants to come to Nicaragua because that we go to Nicaragua is it's also like our time, even beyond Christmas, it's like that's our anniversary now for our wedding and like our anniversary of when we met, and it's just like this very special time. December is like our month, it feels like our month. And I personally have for a very long time never liked Christmas in the States. So even with my family liking it more, we would, you know, once we were adults, we would be other they would come and meet my brother and I, whichever country we were living in, or uh we'd all meet in a separate country or something. I don't know. I just I find Christmas in the States chaotic and hectic and not enjoyable. Is even so Nicaragua loves Christmas. It's extremely festive, extremely religious, but it's like the real Christmas.
Speaker 1:It's like, yeah, it's real Christmas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like the essence of Christmas, not just capitalism.
Speaker 1:It's not like Christmas trees in Santa Claus, you know. It's like really about family and their their time in the church and food and music, dancing, celebrating.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And just, and so I love our time there too. And my parents have come. I said once, you said twice. It's unclear. They've come at least once for Christmas and had a great time. We also like we always do a big Christmas party for our staff there.
Speaker 1:And then we do a big feeding program at a village nearby that is we've created like some really unique traditions that for us, it's like that's what we look forward to the most. Like when I think about Christmas and I look in the past, I think about like, you know, my family. It was like, you know, it was always about like fam family time around the around the Christmas tree, opening presents, doing that whole thing, which was awesome. And I I love that. I think that's really cool. But I love the traditions that we're creating, which is like, yeah, we throw a holiday party for the staff, we throw a Christmas party with like pinatas. All the kids are invited, all their kids are invited. They all the kids get presents.
Speaker 2:So we go and get like so many presents for the kids. It's literally your favorite thing to do ever.
Speaker 1:It's like picking out all the toys for the kids.
Speaker 2:And it's just like a big pizza party.
Speaker 1:And all the kids get multiple toys. They all get to pick the toys they want.
Speaker 2:The pinata.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we we get a bunch of pizza, Coca-Cola, you know, fanta, and then we get multiple pinatas, which I feel like the pinatas are awesome. I don't know where they find these, but they get these like custom-made pinatas. It's like a Santa or Christmas tree or whatever.
Speaker 2:And also everyone gets super dressed up, like to the nines. Everyone is they're wearing like ball gowns. Yeah. It's amazing. And, you know, and then there's like dancing. It's just like a very fun, and this isn't on Christmas Day, but this is around the week of Christmas. Yeah, like usually like the 23rd. Because they usually more celebrate on the 24th. And so on the 24th is then when we do a feeding program. So we give Christmas meals to tons of fam. I don't know how much like a hundred? How many do we do?
Speaker 1:Usually between 50 and 100.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, in a neighboring village that is even less developed and you know, kids more in need. Yeah, more in need. And so that's really fun. And then and then also usually now what we started doing last year is the sports day for the kids. So we clo we basically we close the hotel for at least a week to 10 days so that we can host all these things and invite all the kids in the village over to like learn how to swim in the pool, to play soccer, to you know, we just like give them a bunch of fruit and sandwiches and they just go nuts and snacks, yeah.
Speaker 1:They're gonna grow up in our pool. They go crazy, and it's so fun, and it's just yeah, our staff school supplies, yeah, school supplies, everything. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So those are that's like that's our Christmas.
Speaker 1:That's our Christmas. We don't give each other presents. Yeah, we've never given each other presents. We use like, you know, we'll spend a few thousand dollars towards our Christmas party and towards the feeding program, and that's how we choose to spend our money on Christmas. And like we love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, but you know, I think with with my family, I know that they, you know, I think they would prefer that we were with them on Christmas, even though I'm sure they would, yeah. You know, it's like, how could you compete with this? I'm sorry, but anyways, I so did we get into my family? Like, how where do we even begin? This is so hard.
Speaker 1:So I think you can start at the beginning, like go over it like like quickly, yeah, just like the process because you did talk about it already, but just to set the context.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So what I I came out in 2020 when you and I started dating, and the biggest thing with my parents, both of my parents, was that they felt like I had lied to them because they saw pictures that I was posting with me and you before, and they picked up on a chemistry and were like, who's this person? Do you like her? Are you dating? And I was like, No, no, which was true. We were not dating. I did like you, but I wasn't, I wasn't ready to tell. I, you know, again, normalized lying. Normalize.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you were ready to tell yourself that. Exactly. Like, or I was in the same boat, I wasn't ready to tell myself that that I liked you yet.
Speaker 2:But also, like, even if you were a guy, I didn't tell my parents every time I hooked up with a new person, sorry, they would be alarmed, you know. Like, I you only they'd be like, whoa, you I would tell them when there was something to tell, you know. So I but anyways, so then when I I felt this pressure to kind of come out to them specifically faster than I would have liked, because they started calling me a liar of being like, We know you're lying, we know you're lying. And I was like, oh, like I have my wound is wanting to be a good person. It was very confrontational. And so it was like And very disappointed in me. Yes, not for coming out, but for lying. But you I'm coming out at the same time. So that's very confusing. Where it's like, okay, cool, it's just met with disappointment. And I have grace for the fact they've never done this, right? They don't know what they're doing, they've never had a child come out before, adult child or otherwise. But it was still hurtful and hard. Um, but in some ways, it just did kind of bounce off of me because we were so lovesick. I was like oblivious to the rest of the world. And um, but then by the time, so again, this is COVID, you know, we weren't really seeing people, and you know, when we all thought we had to be cautious and all that kind of stuff. So my parents didn't meet you until it was like seven months later or so. And my mom was always great, like truly, not a like forcing it. My mom has always been like, I don't give a shit who you're with, as long as you're happy, healthy, loved, you know, super supportive. Just wanted you to be happy, and and not me to be, but also to like be with a good person, be in a healthy relationship. Like, and so if that comes in this body, whatever. Like, she didn't care. Um, whereas my dad was always more uncomfortable with it. I would say, I don't know, like obviously, I can't speak for them. I feel like my dad is more religious, and my mom is religious, but more spiritual. So I've to me, I feel like more of an opening from her there where like she prays, and and I grew up going to church. I think I should say that at a certain point growing up very heavily into church, going multiple times a week. My dad worked at our church, like in church, you know, not just like a holiday or just Sunday type of family. So it was, you know, like I definitely grew up religion, religion, religious. Um, and my dad, I felt was more, you know, into that organized structure of religion where I felt like my mom was more open spiritually and yes, believes in Jesus and kind of like the teachings of the Bible, but also, yeah, just has like more of an openness to her. I feel I don't know if she describes herself that way, but this is just like my perception of it. And so I think my dad being more structured, organized religion, and maybe also because of the opposite sex thing, and you know, I think that was happening too, whereas like he he wanted his daughter to be protected, and and these are his words of things he said is like, you know, it's a man's job to protect a woman, and I think behind that is the belief that if a woman isn't with a man, then she will never be protected in the world, you know. So part of it is like a fear of just the rest of my life, and then I think part of it was also this conflict religiously of like, whoa, I've always been taught this is so wrong, but this is my daughter and I love her, but also like this is wrong, you know. And so, needless to say, when we would be around them, it just felt he felt uncomfortable. Definitely, he never really tried to get to know you, and you know, coming from a family, we were always pretty close. My parents always wanted to be extremely involved in our lives, you know, sometimes more than I wanted, and like know my friends, my partner, whoever I brought home so well. And so I think, you know, if they were always more reserved, it would be different. But it's like I've seen the way you've treated literally everyone else I brought home, whether it's romantic or friend, and it's very different.
Speaker 1:It was harder for me to know that because you didn't know anything other than I didn't know them and they're super kind, you know, and yeah, we're super generous. And, you know, it was like really enjoyable getting to know your parents when we were like first started dating everything. You know, I never felt uncomfortable to be like staying at their house with you or anything like that. They were always super kind. So I didn't like fully understand. Yeah, you know, because I'd never seen them, let's say, with how they were with your friends or other people that you dated.
Speaker 2:Or my, for instance, like I have one brother and he has also obviously been in relationships before, all straight relationships. So, like, also the way they would treat his partners, like it was just I'm well, I shouldn't say they, it was more so my dad, you know, because my mom was the same. As we know, she likes to ask five million questions. That's their way of connecting. Yeah, she genuinely did and still does, I think, want to get to know you in that way. Yeah, definitely. Um, but I noticed it with my dad. And and so, you know, it would kind of bum me out, but it also, this is what I was saying before, where like when it's this subtle thing where you're not with somebody that's like, they're not making mean comments under their breath or more outwardly like trying to be able to do it. Or ignoring you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no.
Speaker 2:But you're like, yeah, but you are treating me differently. And I know in this case, with your family, it wasn't as clear. Is it because of this or this or this? Like in my case, that is for sure why you are treating me differently, is only the gay factor. Because, you know, whereas your family could be more reserved to all all partners, gay, straight, whatever, like they're just less involved in that's an understatement. Than mine. So, so yeah, so that happened. And then when we got engaged, you know, I'll spare the details, but a little bomb happened that kind of like really for me, it it was like the hair that broke the camel's back kind of thing with my dad that was extremely hurtful. And it was very painful, yeah. It was, it was just like, wow, like that's okay, cool. And it it then sent me on this kind of path of like figuring out how I wanted to say what I wanted to say because I was like, I can't, this like this can't continue this way, and ended up writing a very lengthy, I say letter, but email, you know, it wasn't a handwritten letter, um, explaining the different ways that he uh that I he had hurt me, of why I was hurting. Some of it was around since I had come out and us being together and the gay stuff, and some of it wasn't. Some of it was just about, you know, other patterns of behavior and the way that those patterns of behavior now were showing up through this avenue of gayness, you know? Yeah. But like that had always been there. And and it ended up being received very well, you know, like yeah, definitely accountability. He apologized, and I felt like we really moved through it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wanted to prioritize having a good, healthy relationship with you, and he also changed with you, like he voted for the effort, like definitely wanted to like get to know me more.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, it was great, and so things really improved, and it felt like okay, cool. Like we just had to get through that little hiccup, you know? Yeah. And they helped tremendously during construction of our property. They were like, like we said, they were in Nicaragua quite a few times with us, like just very Arlette.
Speaker 1:We were so involved in each other's lives. Yes. We would spend months with each other, like we would usually spend summers in Tahoe with them. We just spent so much time with them, you know, through through even the hard part of the you're with everything with your dad, we still spent so much time with them, and then once we moved through that, we got so close with your parents for a few years.
Speaker 2:And so we get married, and that's kind of like when the next thing happens, which is my brother, who is, you know, he's slightly older than me, and we've always been very, very close. So he didn't come to my wedding. My brother lived in Australia at the time. Is that far from Nicaragua? Absolutely. That is undeniably far. I know that, I've done the flight, it's gnarly. Okay. And I don't, it sounds weird to say this because we are in our 30s, my brother and I at this point. But it's like if it were reverse, and my brother was getting married in Australia and I was living in Nicaragua, I literally wouldn't be allowed to not go. Like my parents would show up at our doorstep and drag me there. Like it just would not be an option to be like, yeah, no, I can't make it. You know, he also had a dog, he'd have to get a dog sitter. He's a professor. So it had to do with his final schedule at school. Like there were things happening, right? Like, all of the, I'm not saying that that isn't also real. And it was expensive. It was also a very expensive flight. We first of all offered to pay for part of it the same way that we did with some of your family. Cause we were like, Yeah, I get some of these things. Like, can we help in these ways?
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, we're not like unreasonable. We're like, if we can contribute, like I bought a plane ticket for my niece to come. Right. You know? I meant to say that too. Some of your family did end up coming to our wedding. Oh, yes. We should say that. Yeah. My sister and her husband and her kids ended up coming to the wedding, which was like extremely meaningful at the end of the day. Yeah. To have family there. Like it would have felt really hard to not have anyone there from my family. So that was amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, so yeah, I felt, you know, and then very similar to what we were saying with your stuff, to where it was like not just that you're not coming, but it was the delivery of it of like, yeah, I can't make it. Sorry. And also my parents' reaction of just like, well, yeah, like he has all these things going on. And I was like, What? Like, why are we all acting like this is no it's just not the way my family normally operates?
Speaker 1:Yeah, your family's like, your brother has something going on. We all show up. That is the requirement. There are no questions asked.
Speaker 2:And it's always been that way since we're kids, like, which I think is great, you know, like we're there for each other. So it's just like, what? Like, why are we acting? And it's my wedding. Like, this isn't just the opening of our resort. And we hope you can, it's my wedding. Hopefully, I only have one. Well, we I guess we had two because we had the courthouse one, but you know what I mean? Like, what? And so it was very hurtful, very, very hurtful. And we had actually just seen him a few months before that because we had flown to Australia. It was the first time you were able to meet him because again of COVID and Australia was super strict in lockdown and everything. And it was, it was normal, I thought. You know, there was a little bit of talk about religion, which I was surprised by because my brother, he's a professor in philosophy. I always like to describe him like his favorite subject to teach is logic. Okay. So that is the he's literally a genius. He is one of the smartest people, if not the smartest person I've ever met in my life, extremely intelligent and so mathy, so solution, like formulaic. His brain is a computer. And because of that, before he became religious, he would almost be a little cynical, you know. Like I was always the more spiritual woo-boo-blah. And like, what do you mean? You don't believe in energy and astrology and blah, blah, blah. And he'd be like, oh my God. And always, you know, like countering my arguments and stuff. So I was a little surprised when he started talking about religion, but also was like, whatever, you know, I didn't really think anything of it. And it was around the time of the wedding or not long after I found out he'd converted to Catholicism, still didn't think anything of it. I know plenty of Catholic people, like, yeah, I don't, I'm not gonna, that's not a red flag for me, you know?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Um, but then what started feeling weird was after the wedding, it's like, but you also didn't ask about the wedding and you didn't, you know, like even But we didn't hear from him after the wedding for six months. It wasn't like, hey, how was like nothing?
Speaker 1:And then want to see pictures. It was just like nothing, yeah.
Speaker 2:And and so I was like, this is weird, that's you don't again, if you can't do something, if you know you're about to disappoint someone, you go in above and beyond, in my opinion, to make sure they know it's not a personal thing. It really is my circumstances, I can't come, I can't afford it, whatever. But then you engage and ask them questions, just you know, basics. So yeah, I I started questioning if it was because of his religion um and this new conversion. And I floated the idea to my parents a few times. They're like, no, no, no. Like that was no, that's crazy. That's crazy. I'm like, yeah, yeah, probably. But I I felt it in my gut, you know. And so I saw him a year later. I usually would only see him once a year because he lived in Australia, asked him to his face, and he said, No, like, absolutely no, it has nothing to do with that. I'm sorry, like I'm just not always good with long distance and you know, all these things. And I, you know, wanted to believe him because I was, you know, crying. I was like, I just really miss you. As my my brother and I were extremely close before, and I think that's also important to mention when you feel that shift where it's like we've always had a long distance relationship because one of us has always been living in a different, not just state, but country.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And you've had to prioritize seeing each other, traveling, all these things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've staying connected, very connected, and never texting, talking on the phone all the time, but just we've always prioritized each other. And something had definitely changed. And so I thought, okay, you know, maybe maybe it, you know, I also know COVID was hard on everyone. And I think I felt that a little bit when we were in Australia, you know, like Australia was really affected the way that they were isolated and shut down, and he wasn't also a citizen, he could not leave, you know, or if he did leave, he couldn't go back. It was so I don't know. I was just like, okay, maybe, maybe he's a little different now or whatever. But I still felt it kind of in my gut.
Speaker 1:And I it was like you kind of knew, but it seemed like I'm curious, like what it was in you because it felt like you needed him to say it. It was like you needed to like you knew in your heart what it was, but you wanted him to say it to you. What was that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's like I I can't only he can validate that. Do you know what I mean? It's like otherwise, I'm living I have to accept your word. If you're saying that's not what's happening, I'm sorry, I'm just not good with communication long distance and I have a lot going on. How do I then be like, I know you're lying, and accuse you of of not accepting your sister because you're Catholic now? Like that's also a big accusation, I think, you know. So yeah, I did feel like I needed to hear it from him because I was also like, maybe I am just being paranoid. Maybe, you know, it's like I knew the feeling was there, and it so it heightened over the next year. So this had gone on for several years. We're deep in fertility stuff at this point. You know, we've been trying for years. My family knows that. The world knows that. It's posted all over the internet, everybody knows that. And I started noticing that in our family chat, he essentially would never. Reply to anything I would say whenever we would be trying, doing a try for a baby, and he would reply to everything else. And so it's like these subtle things that were you're like, Am I being crazy? Am I being they started to really add up? But it became obvious. It was like, there's no other explanation at this point. So then this is now a year later, I write him. So this is in 2024, I write him this long email, and it was very, it wasn't accusatory. It was actually very vulnerable, and just like I just I miss my brother so much. Like, if I also did something, please tell me. Like if I need to apologize for something, please tell me. You know, yeah. Like, but I just and was also trying to kind of like paint the light of like, I am still the same person, even though I'm gay, you know. Um, and I just said, like, I don't know what else to believe other than like these are the that's the only thing that's changed. Because when I first came out with you, he didn't care.
Speaker 1:That's what's so interesting about all of this, too, is that like it's it, it isn't like you, you know, it isn't like he was always religious, you know. It was like he converted in the middle of our relationship and there wasn't an issue before. And trying to navigate that was so tricky.
Speaker 2:Even talking, I used to talk to him about how I felt about my dad acting the way my dad was, and he would be my sounding board for that. Like very confusing to have someone do this 180. And so finally he admitted it, you know, he finally admitted it, and it was extremely, extremely dark, painful time. Um, and he was coming to the States soon after. We had an in-person conversation about it. I asked him everything I wanted to know. You know, I wrote down questions. Again, I he's very logical, very black and white. I wrote down yes, no questions based on literally like the Catholic website. I don't know what Catholic teaching. Yeah. And, you know, I'd say, This is written. Is this what you believe? Yes or no? So there's no ambiguity. I'm not like potentially words in his mouth. Yeah. Exactly. And so it was fucking hard to hear, you know, someone be to me say, like, correct, like your your marriage is not valid. And like, correct. I do think gayness is a disorder, you know, and that is obviously very hard to hear, but in some ways, like I needed to hear that of just like, okay, I would rather know how you feel about me than feel you pull away from me and treat me differently and wonder, you know, because I don't know, the what ifs are worse, I think. I wanted to just opposite.
Speaker 1:I would not want to know every exactly how they feel. But for you it was important.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, so yeah, it was really hard and it it created a very big divide in my family between my parents and and I, because my parents essentially, you know, my parents describe it as I have a hard time with my brother being Catholic.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Instead of my brother has a hard time with a sister being gay. I think that's very telling. Um, and you know, it's obviously very hurtful for me to have people is particularly your parents, whose job I think is like to protect you, be like, essentially, just take it. Like, just accept that. Let somebody see you as less than, because that is if you don't you you see me as less than you, and that is discrimination.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If you are seeing someone as less than you because of their gender, their race, their sexual orientation, whatever, that's literally discrimination. And if someone sees you as less than, they're not going to respect you. And like that has been my biggest issue is I feel very disrespected.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, but it's also been very subtle, you know, similarly to where it's like, my brother has never said anything rude. He would never, no, he would never, no, he's very polite, very polite.
Speaker 1:And and I'm a very kind person, and that he would never treat somebody poorly, anyone.
Speaker 2:Right. And I think that's part of it. If they're like, you forced him to say this stuff, like you asked for it, you know? And now, so it's like my fault, kind of, you know, that's how it feels. But it's like, but it's also like, but I ha I ask because his behavior changed. If he truly kept treating me the same, you would never have even known to ask. You're allowed to feel however you want to feel, but once your behavior starts changing based on your perception of that person, that's when it becomes a problem. You would have never even known to ask, ever.
Speaker 1:If you would have kept treating you the same way. Ever. And I think I mean it became I think part of the shift as well was because we were trying for kids and like maybe share how that made you feel differently too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I it made me feel a lot more protective, you know, of so it I think it's kind of sad because I think a lot of people can relate to this where when it's just you, you can like take it and take it and take it. And I even felt it once I you and I got together. Once it started impacting you, and someone is treating you in a way that I've been treated before, then I'm like, nope, not okay. Like as soon as it is now impacting other people that I love, like my family, you and our future babies, then that's enough. Full full on mama bear came out. Yeah, but like I can take it. So I think I think that was a big part of it was the fertility stuff too, where you know, it's like, and I've had this conversation so many times, particularly with my mom at this point, of like, well, you know, she'll say things like, Well, I'm sure that you have friends that have different beliefs than you, and like you guys all still get along. I'm like, yeah, I I want people around me with different beliefs. Correct. And also the baseline for me to be in a close relationship with anyone is respect. And if you see me as less than you because of who I'm married to or my sexual orientation, then you you are not, you are inherently not respecting me the way that I want to be respected.
Speaker 1:I've also never, you know, I it's hard too, because it's like it is confusing when somebody says to you, like, I love you, but you're not in a real marriage. And like you're, you know, like this isn't right valid or whatever, or yeah, I love you, but like you are disordered. It's like it it does mess with your mind a little bit.
Speaker 2:It's confusing. It's a feedback sandwich on crack, is what it is. Like it literally, he said that his religion has helped him to love me more unconditionally than ever.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And also, you know, in the same vein, I can never pray for you to have a child because that's against my conscience. But it's not personal. Like, that's what I'll say. It's not personal.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Feels very personal to me, you know. So, so yeah, it's, you know, it's very, very challenging. And I think I also did get pregnant. So then I'm even more so just like, yeah, no, like none of this is going to impact this sacred little bubble that I'm in, and trying to like protect this new life, you know? And it's something that we've talked about a lot where it's like we know that our kids are most likely at some point in their life going to be othered or bullied or whatever for having two moms. Like for sure. That's still a minority, you know, like we're not in the majority. Okay. We know that we cannot protect them from everything. No. Any parent, you can't can protect your kid from everything. But what you can do is protect your home and your inner circle and the people that you allow, you know, even if it's not your actual physical home, but just like your inner circle. Your bubble, your bubble, that you can curate and that is in your control. And if someone is acting out in that bubble, like they're out, you know, like you can't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't want we don't want people in our bubble who are holding beliefs against us and our family.
Speaker 2:Like that exactly, that think my children shouldn't exist because they have to be created through science, or think that surrogacy is human trafficking, or you know, I don't, I know they will encounter those beliefs and they should be exposed to those beliefs. Our kids are not going to be sheltered, but they don't need that in their inner circle. They don't need to feel that in what's supposed to be like their safe space, you know, like that home environment. They don't need to feel that judgment or insecurity, you know. So it's it makes it very hard. And that's what I've explained is I've never, I haven't gotten no contact with my family ever. I've never said, don't talk to me, you know, but I've just said, I don't know how to have a close relationship with you when a huge part of my life right now is my marriage and having babies. And both of those things are extremely judged by you. Why would I want to open up about these really important parts of my life, knowing the way that you, the filter through which you're seeing those, I don't feel comfortable sharing that with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's also been a very hard journey for us.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so we want people around us who are gonna support us and uplift us and not put more stress on us in a time where we're really trying to take stress off our plates. Which again, I think, is respect. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think when you respect someone at a at a bare minimum, you wouldn't put them through that when they're going through IVF, let alone multiple miscarriages. That's crazy. Yeah. To say the things that were said to me. So, so yeah, so I'm like, you're at a place that is a lot more resolved and healed, and I'm like very much going through it where I'm I'm navigating like, how do I be in these relationships? Are these relationships I can be in? And also for me, it feels very individual. Like my feelings for my mom are very different than my dad and very different from my brother. Like they're very individual. I think that's good.
Speaker 1:I felt the same way when I was going through things with my family. It was like I very try treated as very much like individual people. And how do we develop the relationships we want?
Speaker 2:And but I I think I agree that I think it's good, but it is not always met that way because they kind of I feel want to be treated more as a unit. Like we are a family, it's like all or nothing kind of that's the feeling I get. Um, so right now, you know, I am working on kind of like repairing a relationship with my mom, and it has been going pretty smoothly, which I'm grateful for, you know, and the others I'm still figuring out. It's like I I don't know. I don't know. And I'm in navigating that, I think like the most important thing is having super strong boundaries, like not the lip service kind, like real boundaries, which are very uncomfortable to constantly say no to people who don't handle no's very well. Um, and not doing it to hurt them, to spite them. It's not about them. I'm doing it for me, for us, for our family, you know, and having to really like hold that line, even when it is so fucking hard. Like it has been a brutal year and a half of going through it's also like a huge grief process, you know, of accepting. And you had that too. It's like you had having this idea of a relationship you want to have with someone and accepting the death of that, that doesn't mean the relationship is over. It's the idea of what you wanted from that relationship. So you're also like going through this grief cycle of people who are alive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so hard. It's very but how do you how are you navigating the part around like there's like uncertainty around like what you know, if you even want that relationship or like what that could look like? And how do you even navigate that?
Speaker 2:I mean, finally found a therapist that I like, so I'm working on it there. And and also I think it's just I don't know, like I don't have the answers yet. Yeah. Other than like, I do feel like I really trust myself a lot and my own, you know, call it your gut, call it whatever. Like those cues for me, it's very physical how I feel a like yes and a no. And I trust that a lot more than I ever have. So when I feel that, like I trust that, and I try to listen to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, another thing, I was asking you this last night, but it's like I still struggle with this. But it's like this concept of like, I love you, but I don't like accept you, you know? And it's like I really struggle with that because I'm like, well, I I just hear the I love you part, you know? And I'm like, but how do you but I but at the same time, I also know that I would feel like how I can't be in a relationship with somebody who doesn't accept me in my like life because how do you now how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's similar to what you're saying, is that it's like my those are different definitions of love. For me, you don't love me if you don't accept me. You have to accept me to love me. You cannot love me and disrespect me like perpetually. Obviously, there can be moments of disrespect. Like I can disrespect you. That doesn't mean I don't love you. But it's like you can, that's to me, that's not real love. That's not the kind of love that I, or maybe not, maybe real is the wrong word, but it's not the kind of love that I want from a family member.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so it's accepting, am I okay with accepting that kind of love? Or is the kind of love I want the priority? And that's what I'm still kind of trying to understand right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is there a middle ground there? And in the meantime, it's just like protecting myself. That's what it feels like. It's like that is my priority right now, is protecting me, us, our future child, like just our our family. That's what I feel like I'm doing currently. And yeah, it's really, you know, it's very confusing, it's very hard. And I think you know, a lot of queer people can obviously relate to this. And that can get really heightened at the holidays, especially. And it's also like I have you, you know, like a lot of queer people can still be single. They could that's true, you know, and it's just so it's like that's really true. Yeah, yeah. Like we have so much, and we have to do that. Yeah, and that's been like part of it for you.
Speaker 1:Like that you've said to me is that, you know, because you have me, you know, you also see like I'm very protective of you, and you know, and also you're protective of me. Like, you don't want to see them treat me differently or in in this way, but you also have seen me be like, this isn't right or this isn't normal either to be treated this way.
Speaker 2:Witness see what I've to witness your journey for years and have been denied of. And also when it first happened, you know, when like the big fracture happened a year and a half ago, it also created so much anxiety for me because I was like, oh my God. I I started getting, and I think it was also hormonal because I was on a lot of hormones and then pregnant and miscarriage, all that stuff. But anxiety about you dying, because it was like, you're all I have, like you are all I have now. No, you know, and it did create a lot, like I just had never felt that before, where it was like, oh my God, like I feel so alone, even though you're here. But it's like, but you're just one per like you're one person.
Speaker 1:And that is we're so fragile, you know, like it's never especially for you because you've always been able to rely on your family. I haven't had that in the same way where I'm like, I've always been like extremely independent. It's just like my family hasn't helped me with a lot of things. Like as I've navigated life or moving across the country, your family has. They've been involved in like every step of your life, very like hands-on monetarily, like everything, you know. And so I think as well for you, that's like been really hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to just feel like, whoa, I am alone in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's what I mean by the grief cycle. I think a lot of people feel that when their parents pass away. Yeah. You know, and so it's very confusing when they're still alive. So, so yeah, if you're going through it, we see you.
Speaker 1:We feel like it's hard because at the holidays, it it heightens it really heightens all the emotions. It all it brings out the all the family system dynamics to come out, you know. Everybody feels those things as well. And just like holidays are hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I'm not just saying that to like really push it down your throats. I'm saying that genuinely because it's like creating that commun, like that's been that's a huge part of queer culture is chosen family. For sure. Because we have to have that.
Speaker 1:Like, you know, so many queer people don't have this have families they can rely on in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So we so we have to create our own.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So quickly before we end, who's the problem? Should we do them this week? You don't want to?
Speaker 1:No. Okay. I feel like no. It's too much. Yeah, I do. I do. I'm feeling that at the minute.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, you guys can yell at Alex because I had a good one, but I'll save it for next time.
Speaker 1:We'll save it for next time. We love you guys. We do hope you enjoy the holidays.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I hope that, you know, maybe even just the chosen family virtually of like having us in your ears talking about this is helpful. I hope that that is really my hope in doing this episode is not to just rant about our families and no, I think it's like we all go on journeys too with our families.
Speaker 1:Like, you know, you're in the middle of a process with yours. We don't know how that's gonna turn out. Like with mine, it was like two years of no contact, and then now things are great. It's like you never know where you are in your journey, you know, towards towards what you want with your family, but just like hopefully you can just accept where you are at the moment and allow it to kind of hopefully get better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and feel a part of something by listening to this. We love you. Have a good, happy holiday. Thanksgiving. Well, most coming on December. Okay. Well, have a good holiday. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the show. We're so happy to have you here. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you're listening to podcasts. We love getting commentary from you on Spotify and on YouTube. And as always, if you love this episode or any of our episodes, make sure to share it with a friend or somebody who will appreciate the conversation.
Speaker 1:And make sure to follow us on all their socials at Wives Not Sisters Pod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Thanks, guys. See you next week.