Wives Not Sisters

Is This Female Friendship or Gay AF? Untangling Homoerotic WLW Dynamics

• Kayla Nielsen and Alix Tucker • Season 1 • Episode 19

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Are homoerotic friendships a canon queer experience? 🌈
Recording from their new studio in Nicaragua, Alix and Kayla dive into homoerotic WLW friendships—the kind that blur the line between “best friend” and “something more.” From red/green flag dating games to listener submissions about twin-bed cuddling, forehead kisses, shared Google Docs, and lifelong “what ifs,” this episode unpacks queer longing, closeted intimacy, and the friendships that change us forever. Plus: a late-addition deep dive into Wicked as the ultimate WLW-coded friendship.

00:00 Intro from Nicaragua + new studio setup
01:20 Listener submissions & why this episode exists
02:40 Red Flag / Green Flag / Beige Flag (WLW edition)
06:10 Common outcomes of homoerotic friendships
08:45 Listener Story #1: “The book I never got to finish”
15:30 Personal college story & grief, queerness, and longing
19:40 More submissions: roommates, Google Docs, future fantasies
28:55 Shooting your shot vs. staying silent
38:30 High school crushes & delayed coming out
46:20 Who’s the problem? (Spoiler: society)
49:10 Wicked, Glinda & Elphaba, and WLW-coded friendships

#QueerPodcast #WLW #HomoeroticFriendships #LesbianPodcast #QueerStories #Situationships #ComingOut #QueerCulture #WickedMovie #Sapphic

Connect with us on social media: IG: @wivesnotsisterspod | TikTok: @wivesnotsisterspod | Youtube: @wivesnotsisterspod

Follow our hosts on Instagram: @kaylalanielsen @alix_tucker

You can also watch our episodes on Youtube at youtube.com/@wivesnotsisterspod!

Speaker 1:

Hey guys, it's Alix and Kayla. And we're married, not related, definitely codependent, but in a cute way.

Speaker 2:

And we're coming to you live from Nicaragua.

Speaker 1:

Nicaragua.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we're here and we are fucking queer. We're queer. We're at still salty. You're home in paradise. If you're watching on YouTube, then you'll really be able to tell because we have a slightly different setup. It looks amazing because we brought producer Lex with us.

Speaker 1:

Yes, we love our producer.

Speaker 2:

She did all of this. Everything that you're seeing and hearing, she did it all, and it looks amazing.

Speaker 1:

We've been shredding waves with her every day. It's been like the best week ever.

Speaker 2:

Living the good life. Just saying.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, we're in Nicaragua for a couple months. We have a new setup. You'll see that. And if you want to see it, then you can go look at YouTube. Just saying a little shameless plug there. And before we get into today, shall we thank the listeners? Yes. You always look so confused. I never knew where you're gonna go. What do we have to do? Yeah, we've been getting okay. Literally, this episode is because of you guys, the sister wives.

Speaker 1:

Because you guys have been sending in all of your homoerotic stories to us, which are amazing, by the way.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because well, it really started. I just posted a story for the Caroline Callaway episode doing a little poll of like, oh, how many people have had homoerotic WLW relationships or friendships? And so many we'd never have had more engagement on a poll, but not only that, you know, when you see a poll pop up and you're like, I need to also send a DM because there's like too much to just click a button. And so we got so many submissions, and then I opened it for submissions. I was like, okay, we're gonna read it on air.

Speaker 1:

We inspired a whole episode.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so that's because of you guys. So thank you. I love it. Keep sending us messages, comments. We love hearing from you. We love, we just love you. So thank you.

Speaker 1:

Yes, thank you to the sister wives.

Speaker 2:

We're we're like softly trying it, soft launching sister wives. I don't know. That is a poll I still need to put up and see. They might be like, we did not choose this name. No, it's a no from us. We'll see. Okay. It's kind of funny. So before we get into the submissions, we're gonna play a little game. It's my turn to lead. Your turn to lead. Good. Red flag, green flag, beige flag. Okay. You can figure that out, right? So I'm gonna give you a scenario. It's a WLW.

Speaker 1:

That's beige yan. It's like not red or green, it's somewhere in between. Yellow. Okay, cool.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And you're gonna tell me you're gonna flag it, okay?

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So the ex-Besti, she still lives with her ex, but they're just really good friends now. Flag it.

Speaker 1:

That's a red for sure.

unknown:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

If you're watching on YouTube, you could see Alex's face.

Speaker 1:

That's not a good situation. You don't want to be in that one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Okay, what about the soft mask poet? Her dating profile says, I'm emotionally available and I journal. In that voice. Flag it. I'm gonna go with beige. Beige.

Speaker 1:

Maybe because that maybe I am that person.

Speaker 2:

Because you are because that is your profile.

Speaker 1:

I'm gonna go beige, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Okay, the U-Haul situation. I mean, we're obviously impartial to a U-Haul around here. So she suggests moving in on date three to save money and because vibes.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I'm gonna go red because it's about money and not love.

Speaker 2:

Oh, honey.

Speaker 1:

It's gotta be about the love.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Okay, the wellness girly. Her entire fridge is coconut water, blueberries, and only one leftover takeout container. She says it's because she's healing her feminine energy. I don't say that. I don't say the feminine energy part. Flag it.

Speaker 1:

I'm gonna go with greenwork.

Speaker 2:

What? We like a healthy girly. We like a healthy girly, but she needs to eat. She only has coconut water and blueberries and one leftover takeout container. I want a fridge full of food. I'm gonna go beige. I'm gonna go beige. You you flag how you flag. I'm just you know, I'm comforted by food. Okay, the cat mom. She owns three cats. Period. That's a lot of cats. That's a lot of cats. I'm gonna go red. Yeah, I agree. The identity spiral. Every six months she changes labels. Lesbian, queer, bi, label free, and then I'm just vibes.

Speaker 1:

I mean that I think I'm okay with this. Flag it. Yeah, I think I'm I'm gonna go with beige. I'm not opposed. I feel for me.

Speaker 2:

Be fluid. I don't care.

Speaker 1:

It's more of just like if you're not attached to your labels, I think that's great.

Speaker 2:

Right. It's not for me, it's not as much about the labels. It's more of like, oh, are you just maybe more of a baby gay? So you're newer in the and you're kind of just spiraling in gender. Yeah. Okay, let's do one more. The it's a complicated situation ship. She swears she's not still in love with the person she had a trauma bond with, but they text every morning.

Speaker 1:

I'm gonna go red on this. I don't trust this. First of all, you had a trauma bond, and you guys are still attached at the hip.

Speaker 2:

Well, they're not they're attached at the fingertip, I guess.

Speaker 1:

Like that's aggressive. The first thing you do every morning is text that person. That's a lot.

Speaker 2:

That's or at all. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I'm pretty aligned with you minus the wellness girly one. That was shocking to me. You're like green flag. Okay. So you also had a chance to listen, or not to listen, but to read some of these submission stories. They're great. Did you have a fave? Do you remember?

Speaker 1:

I don't I literally forgot them the second I read them because that's how my brain works. Okay. But I remembered really enjoying them and relating to some of them, like be have been in that a similar situation as some of the ones that people sent in.

Speaker 2:

And we obviously, I don't even know, even the ones I've pulled here, I don't know if we'll get a chance to go through all of them once we're actually going. We had a lot. And what I will say that these are common themes in all of the stories we've had, and then also stories just from talking to friends about this and everything, is it's either we're married now or like we're in a relationship now. So like that is one outcome. Or they never came out, but I'm out. And it got really weird. And we're no longer friends now. We're no longer friends. Um, or neither one of us came out, we're both still straight-ish, or at least like in heterole relationships, but we're no longer friends because and and not only are we not only friends, but there was like a massive falling out. It wasn't just kind of like, yeah, we just sort of like drifted apart. It was like there was like a big explosive moment. I think those were the top three kind of trends that we see.

Speaker 1:

That's that that's what I would expect it to be. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Most of the time it was like. So interesting.

Speaker 1:

Doesn't it's either like basically you're getting married or the friendship's blowing up.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Which, okay, again, all of this.

Speaker 1:

I will say, or it could be like a slow fadeaway where you lose touch over time. No, that's what I was saying.

Speaker 2:

I feel like that happens less.

Speaker 1:

That's what happened in my scenario, but I think it, yeah, maybe it's less common.

Speaker 2:

That's that's what we got. As far as the stories that we got, I heard that less because, and again, this also related back to the Caroline Callaway episode. If you look at even her and Natalie, it wasn't just like, yeah, we kind of just lost touch of massive blow. Explosive, I mean, still writing novels about each other, you know, like novels and exactly craziness. So I I know that there are some slow fades, like your experience too, but maybe that's also an age thing where it's like, well, you were young and then you went to different colleges, and like it kind of just, you know. Okay, so let's read one. Hi, wives. Oh, hey. Hello. In college, I had this best friend who assumed who everyone assumed was my girlfriend, even though we both insisted we were straight. We were basically attached at the hip, showering after the gym together. Okay, that's wild. Sharing clothes, sharing beds on trips, and accidentally referring to each other as my person. This is the gayest thing I've ever heard. Okay, one night after a party, we were lying in her twin bed. Of course, you were lying in a twin bed.

Speaker 1:

Honey, this literally sounds like you and Jenny. Did you write this, honey? Did you write your freshman together?

Speaker 2:

Best friend. We did not shower together, totally out of nowhere, and said, I've never felt this safe with anyone. Then she brushed my hair behind my ear and kissed my forehead, slow, intentional. It was not friendly. I was so tender. I know. I'm like, that is so much more intimate than the lips, by the way.

Speaker 1:

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I froze because it felt too good and too confusing, and she never mentioned it again. But after that, we cuddled up every night I slept over, and she traced circles on my back until I fell asleep. We're both married to men now. We still send each other voice notes that sound like love letters. Neither of us have ever talked about that night, but it lives in my head like a book I never got to finish.

Speaker 1:

That's like the most romantic thing I've ever heard in my life. She traced your back every night. That's your takeaway. That's so intimate. That's your dream. Little back scratchies every day. Put me to sleep every night. That'd be amazing.

Speaker 2:

For me, it's the forehead kiss. I've never felt so safe with anyone. Wow. It reminds me of one of our friends who identifies as straight-ish-ish who has said about her girl best friend. Oh, yeah. Who, and they are like super best friends. And her best is a lesbian. Yeah. But she's like, Sometimes I just wonder if I'm ever gonna love a guy as much as I love her. And we're like, Are you gay? You're not straight.

Speaker 1:

There's no way you're straight.

Speaker 2:

Straight girls don't say that about their best friends.

Speaker 1:

She's just like, I just don't think I'll ever have an emotional connection with a man the way I do with like this best friend. Right. And she's like, I'm like, does that mean that I should be with her?

Speaker 2:

Like, I think she's confused by it. Right. And I still, so it reminds me of this situation.

Speaker 1:

I agree.

Speaker 2:

I would love to know how the track to both being married to men has gone and also like the both of your relationships.

Speaker 1:

I'm curious about the voice notes that you're sending to each other to this day when you're married to men. Voice notes that sound like love notes.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so this is-I wonder if the husbands have any suspicions. Okay, but this is also where it's tricky because on a societal level, it's so much more I send podcast-length voice notes to my girlfriends, and I'm also married to a woman, and you still would never look at the way I'm voice noting my friends and ever be like, this makes me uncomfortable.

Speaker 1:

Well, I also don't know what you guys are saying on your voice notes. I'm not listening to them. So he the men don't know that they sound like love notes. They're just like, Oh yeah, two girls voice noting, that's exactly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. Like on a societal level, it's acceptable for girls to do that, to be that connected and talk all the time. And it typically wouldn't really raise an eyebrow.

Speaker 1:

I'm just so curious if they still have that longing, even though they're married. Because I'm guessing that they do it.

Speaker 2:

In my head, like a book I never got to finish. There's longing, there's deep longing. So I have so many questions.

Speaker 1:

There's like there's like grief in that longing for something that never came true.

Speaker 2:

And and this is also so they say we're both married to men now, but she doesn't say we're straight. You know what I mean? There's a difference. You could both be married to men, but are you also both queer? And if so, are you out as queer to each other, to anyone? Because I feel like there would have to be a grief in that too of just being closeted if that is the case, or you know, there's so many questions.

Speaker 1:

So many questions, but this also feels like you and your freshman college experience. No, this is kind of this is sleeping in the twin bed every night, like at college and stuff. Like that's I'm sorry. I never I I don't You never slept in a twin bed with a girl. No, honey, never how definitely not in like a dorm room bed.

Speaker 2:

No, I wanted to be my own bed. Well, I okay, I also slept in dorm room beds and twin for okay. First of all, being wasted, you pass out face first anywhere, right? It's partially that. Second of all, I did it with other people who I didn't have that same connection with as I did my friend that was the out of necessity, yeah. No, just out of comfort. It's again like with girls, I don't know. It's it's not, it didn't feel sexual, it didn't feel any type of way. It was just like, oh yeah, of course, I'll crash in your bed. We were staying up watching a movie, whatever. I don't know. It wasn't, but my and by the way, the friend that you're talking about, she didn't have a twin bed.

Speaker 1:

She had maybe a you guys had like keys to each other's apartments, and you'd sleep in each other's apartments every night together.

Speaker 2:

Like that's no, that was gay.

Speaker 1:

That was definitely the gayest thing I've ever heard in my life.

Speaker 2:

And not only that, I didn't realize it was gay until I met you. Which was like 20 years later. No, it was like 15 years later. And then you're like, wait a second, were we in love? I was like, oh my gosh. Like, I think Can you tell them about it? Yeah, I mean, well, you can't come back to see. Yeah, so this is like my college best friend, and kind of, I mean, everything that you it it was it's so confusing because it's like she you have this attraction towards them where you're just like they're a very magnetic person, which I was not the only person that thought that. That is her personality. She was just very charismatic, but also super kind to everyone, like very inviting to everyone. So everybody felt very safe and comfortable with her. And we just clicked immediately. And then you know, when you click with someone, you're like, you just get enmeshed and codependent immediately in that age of a cute way. In a cute way. And as I don't know, I feel like especially that age, you're not really like, oh, I want my alone time, or you know, you're not really doing or craving, at least for me, I wasn't craving the same things that I am now. And so, yeah, we just spent a lot of, like you said, we exchanged keys, so we would stay in each other's place, even like sometimes the other person we they'd be out and about. We're like, I'm just gonna go sleep in your bed today. I don't know why. That is weird. The face you're giving me.

Speaker 1:

That's like it's it's weird because it means I think you guys were in love with each other and just didn't know it.

Speaker 2:

I yeah, I think we didn't know. And and the other thing I will say is that we always thought that she was just really picky because she and she was she was too, but she it compared to me, right? I was a little slutty. I was the opposite of picky.

Speaker 1:

Her sorority's name was all for free. Okay. For all the aphies out there, we know there's a lot of queer apes who are out there today.

Speaker 2:

Yes, but she never hooked up with one guy our whole freshman year, which was very That's unusual. And again, she was in the same sorority as me, which was known as the slutty sorority essentially, and it was just very normalized. And she was super good friends with all the guys, really fun. We would always party with them, but she also never so she was never staying the night with guys. Do you ever felt like she got jealous when you would like hook up with somebody? No, I never felt that from her. She was always very supportive and everything. It was never, you know, she would never get catty or make weird remarks or anything. But that was one thing that I again at the time, I was like, yeah, she was just more picky and you know, a little bit more, I don't know the right word for that, but just like protective of her sexual energy, I guess, you know, whereas I was like, whatever, who wants it? I didn't care. And I just thought that was her personality. So, and maybe it was. Like, I don't know, I think she was in love with you. I don't know. I don't know. Who knows? It's yeah, we'll never know because yeah, so sadly the story is very different than all the other stories because she passed away by the end of our freshman year. And so that was also a, you know, I'll also never know. I've never had a best friend pass away before. I and then I wonder, I'm like, okay, did it affect me as much as it did because there was something more there? I think it was both, yeah. Or I don't know, I have nothing to compare it to. It's always gonna be sad, it's always gonna be hard and confusing, especially when you're that young. And when it is so sudden and, you know, it's traumatic. So I don't know. Um, and there's that's why it's like, I don't want to speculate on, oh yeah, she was in love with me. You know, it's like I don't want to speculate on her sexuality in that way, but it was just like I never, I literally never thought about this until you and I started dating. And then I started having dreams about her all of the time. And she was coming to me in my dreams, and she was like, You're not getting it. That's all she kept saying is you're not getting it. And then finally I woke up one day. This was maybe after like two weeks of the dream, and I was like, Oh my god, that was that, you know, I was like trying to connect the dots, trying to do the math. We'll never know. Like, I can only know from my side that I'm like, oh yeah, I think there was definitely deeper feelings there. And I I didn't feel like I was suppressing them. I didn't feel like, oh, I feel this, but I don't want to, and I'm ashamed because she's a girl. It just felt very natural. And I do, I always I wonder, of course, like what would have happened if in so many ways, what would have been? Like if you had more time, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. Who knows? Maybe she would have held you close and kissed you on your forehead and said she's never felt this safe before.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but then who knows what I would have found you because maybe we were so I think you guys were soulmates on some level, in some level for sure, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. So it's so sweet. I just like picture you guys like all like cuddled up every single night in college. Like, who does that with their best friend?

Speaker 2:

I mean, I feel like a lot of girls do that.

Speaker 1:

Exhibit A, this person right here in homoerotic relationships.

Speaker 2:

You're like that are queer as fuck. Okay, so the next one, my roommate in college, that's exactly how it starts again. So my roommate in college used to have snuggle time in her bed with all of the curtains closed around us. We'd listened to music while I played with her hair and laid on her boob. I didn't realize I had a crush on her until my current wife told me I did.

Speaker 1:

Oh we love when our partners help us uncover our secret crushes from the past.

Speaker 2:

Because I've I do feel like that's at least so many queer people that I've seen kind of share their stories online. That's a been a part of it when they're in their relationship, like a relationship for the first time. And then especially if their partner is farther along the gay journey, they're able to be like, yeah, no, that was fucking gay. You know, and they kind of point it out to you. It's so cute.

Speaker 1:

So cute.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I love it. Okay. Hi, Kayla and Alex. My best friend, in quotes, in my mid-20s and I had a whole delusional fantasy life we never admitted was romantic. We'd go on what were absolutely dates, farmers markets, picnics, cooking dinners, slow dancing in my kitchen as a joke, in quotes. She randomly tell me I smelled good and tuck my necklace into my shirt for me. But the wildest part, we planned a future together. We literally had a Google Doc titled Our House, describing how we decorate, what dog we'd get, and which cities we'd live in. She'd send Zillow listings like this one has the sunroom for your writing desk. Meanwhile, she was dating a guy she barely liked, and I kept saying I wasn't into girls. Spoiler alert, I am. When she finally moved across the country, we hugged for so long I cried into her neck. Not the neck, oh my god. She whispered, You're my home. And then left. I'm gonna cry. We drifted apart after that. Sometimes I reread the Duke the Google Doc like it's a relic from the queer timeline where we actually let ourselves be honest.

Speaker 1:

Oh that's so sweet. What are your thoughts? I can really relate to this one because I I've had so a lot of the similar ones with somebody before. But I would because I would when I was thinking about the context of this, I was thinking about it as more like unrequited, homoerotic relationship kind of situations, like our friendships. Whereas like this was the other person was also a queer, queer person. We just never like admitted that we liked each other, but we were doing all of these things. Like we would drive around my car in San Francisco and be like, oh, that's the house we're gonna buy one day, or like go on like little dates, but we were just like best friends, you know, or like really good friends. Yeah. And so I didn't like think about it that way. Where it's like it I was thinking more of like maybe one person's gay, one person's straight, or both are straight, and you're having this like weird friendship dynamic, but I had this as well with another, yeah, another lesbian.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it can show up in well, okay. This is also a hot take of mine. I don't believe in unrequited love. I don't think that it's possible. I don't know. I think okay, I should say, I think it's possible that both people can fall in love and one person can fall out, and then one person falls out and one person's still in, then it's possible. But I don't think it's possible when it's just like you're having this experience, for instance, and then one of those. Energy is there. There has to be an opening in the energy.

Speaker 1:

Or you wouldn't be doing any of these things, you wouldn't be doing it. I'm with you on that. Like, don't feel like this person didn't have those feelings for you because they 1000% did, or you would never be in this situation.

Speaker 2:

Right. And and I feel that way with people, you know, this happens with men, women, everybody, queer people who have especially sexual experiences with people who are like, oh, I'm straight. And it's like, you're not. You just had a body part of mine in your mouth that straight people wouldn't. So that's not straight. Number one. Number two, I don't know. It's like, I understand, yes, things like alcohol or whatever that if you're you're using that as an excuse to be like, oh, well, I was just drunk, I didn't know what I was doing. It's like, okay, sure, maybe, maybe that can happen sometimes. Maybe. But for the most part, I don't know. I don't when when there's gay people who say, like, oh, I have a thing for straight girls or guy, you know, because I've heard gay guys and gay girls say that. I'm like, I don't think they're really straight. I don't think a real straight person, though, would do that. And that's what I mean by the unrequited. It's like there's you can say the words, I'm straight. You can say the words, I'm not into it, but the energy doesn't lie. You know? I'm so with you on that. Energy.

Speaker 1:

I think it's a really, really good point. And it's like to even get in these situations where you're full-on cuddling somebody for weeks or like building a fantasy life with them and like being that intimate, like one of there's no way the other person doesn't feel the same way. Even if they never admit it. Like, even sometimes I think about like when we first, like in our early unadmitted love for each other, like what struck me the most was how intimate we were without being physically intimate. Yeah. And that like that energy that's like building that tension, I think that's like it's so much more intense than the than like a physical connection with somebody.

Speaker 2:

And so that energy is so powerful. And yeah, go back and listen to our first episode if you want to hear our love story, we go deeper into that. But I mean, as I just said before, I was a little pretty slutty most of my life. So I was, and I was fine with that. Like I could have casual sex genuinely and like not catch feelings and everything. And so the way we did it was, and it wasn't even intentional. It wasn't that I was like, okay, I'm gonna do it differently this time. And see, it was just that's just how it happened. But it was something both of us thought and said that we were, we also didn't want when we would tell our friends and everything. It's like, oh, I don't even know if I want to cross that line, even with just a kiss, because it felt like that physical part might ruin it because the other part was more valuable and more potent. And the physical part felt less important in some ways, you know.

Speaker 1:

I still feel that way today.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's like the intimacy, the love is of course, of course, like we're still attracted to each other, of course. We still, you know, like to kiss and hook up and all of these things. Like, you can't not have that at all.

Speaker 1:

But but the basis of like a really strong relationship is that like the emotionally intimate connection.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. And I don't know, I'm also curious from you, because like you said, you had this experience with another lesbian, and I know when I know who you're talking about, and so you were already both of you were super out, like there was you know, how is that different compared to the other experience you had in high school when you were not out? You didn't you didn't even know what a lesbian was in high school, you know. Like, how do you think that that's different with two out lesbians having that experience versus people who are potentially closeted or confused?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think like for me when I had the experience in high school, it felt more scary because if I like accepted what was happening, that would be like so confronting for my identity, and that was like more wrapped up in what would that mean and who I am and all those things. So it was like something I really didn't want to acknowledge. I think with like my friend in San Francisco, it was more about, you know, similar almost similar to you and I, where it's like if I cross this friendship barrier, like how is that gonna impact our friendship?

Speaker 2:

It was also friendship grew.

Speaker 1:

That's what I was gonna say is like we had a strong group dynamic, and like would that ruin the group dynamic? So there was more fear around like ruining the group friendship and that like individual friendship. Fast forward, it all blew up, anyways.

Speaker 2:

Like all of the friends, the group dynamic and that individual friendship all blew up, but like And it blew up because of this, because of the tension, essentially. She would never admit that. Well, I mean, that is a huge part of it, yeah. Because, like I said at the beginning, most of the stories I've heard, not all, but most don't have this kind of just like, yeah, and then we sort of like your high school one, yes, you sort of drifted apart and lost touch, but I think that was more the circumstances of the age.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And high school ended, and then you went to different colleges and life goes on, you know?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, because I think anytime that I think the hard part of all of this is this is all happening with close friends. So there is when you're having these types of dynamics with friends, there is a risk to the friendship, essentially, if you cross that boundary. And so it's like, are you, is it worth it or not? Like, are you willing to cross that line and see where that goes? My thing now, looking back, is like, you might as well cross the line because it's probably gonna blow up either way. You know what I mean? So you might as well cross it and then at least try, then be afraid of crossing that line and it blowing up anyways. And then you're like wondering what could have been, what should have been.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I think it depends on the depth of the feelings. Because there's one thing, like you and I, for instance, when I was like, okay, no, I have a crush on you, right? Like I'm attracted to you, I have a crush on you. And what I had told when I told my friend, like, oh, I have a crush on this girl, and I was like, no, but I'm never gonna do anything because sure, like I want to make out with you. But if it is just that kind of surface level, and it's like it probably won't turn in. And at the time I was not out, so it was like, oh, I'm not gonna like end up with this person, I'm not gonna marry a woman. Like, so there's no point to ruin the friendship. But then as the feelings got deeper, then yes, ruin the friendship versus like there's been other, I mean, producer Lex, for instance, we were talking about this at lunch. She's like, I think all my friends are hot. I want to make out with all my friends. Like, I'm attracted to everyone. Everyone.

Speaker 1:

And so And she thinks it's because she's a Pisces. Guys, I'm a Pisces. I don't want to make out with all my friends. So I she's like, it's a Pisces.

Speaker 2:

I think it's something else, Lex, but you know, it's like you can you can think your friends are beautiful, hot, whatever. And that doesn't always mean like, yeah, go for it. So make always make out with them, like always take the plunge. I mean, use determinants for sure.

Speaker 1:

But if it's if it's this deep, if it's this deep and this intimate, like you might as well say something. Right. But so did they drift apart, or what happened when when she moved?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so she said we drifted apart. So they were drifters, which is surprising. Um yeah, and did she say that they're both queer? She said she is. Oh no. Well, she didn't say what happened to the other one if she is queer or not. Wow. Yeah, it's so That's intense. It's so intense, and it's so the the thing is too, in all friendships, like I think men have this capacity. It's just a lot of the times they're either afraid of it or they don't know how to get there with their friends, but like all friendships have the capacity to be intimate.

Speaker 1:

I'd be so curious to see hear some male stories. I know. Like I'm I'm curious how it may differ from women because like women, it's like we get so close anyways. And I feel like it's and women are more sexually fluid, so it's just like all I feel like it's like such a recipe for, you know, not disaster, but fun. But I'm curious about like disaster response. I'm curious about like what it's like for men.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because I think it's just like again on a societal level, there's a lot typically more shame for men to even like are they comfortable cuddling and stuff? Like, oh, I mean it can happen. Yeah, you know. Remember on okay, this is a a deep cut to southern hospitality on Bravo, if anyone watches that. Oh, yeah, Joe Bradley. Yeah, and his best friend who is an out gay man, yeah, and they're also in the South, as the title suggests. So, you know, it's like for sure more conservative and everything. And um, but they were talking about like the cuddling and the spooning and how it was sending him mixed messages, and it's still not super clear what may or may not have happened. It's pretty gay. But oh yeah, it sounded definitely gay. But it but I know that there's a lot too that can be violent, you know, where it's like you're like either coming to from sobering up, or it's almost it's like a lot of stories that I've heard or even like seen on TV or in the media or whatever, is where it's like because of the shame that men have around it, when they are starting to accept it, then it almost like makes them so scared that instead of being scared and and vulnerable to be scared, they just get angry and like violent, violent, yeah. That's so sad. I would love to hear some male stories. I don't think we have that many male listeners.

Speaker 1:

I don't think we do either. I'd be curious to like listen to some though.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I agree. It would be it would be good. But but yeah, this was so back to the original question that I had said to you about you know the difference between closeted versus two lesbians, because it's like I feel like if there's two lesbians that are having that experience, then it should be even more almost not like a red flag in a bad way, but more noticeable, like, oh, this is gay. Like, because we are gay, and so we know this is how we act in relationships. Oh no, I knew it was gay. Oh, I knew what was happening, yeah. But you well, you wanted it to happen, yeah, yeah. You liked her, yeah, but did did you have to be a good one?

Speaker 1:

But it wasn't like we weren't like actively pursuing no, no, we didn't tell each other.

Speaker 2:

So you never talked about it. No, and then she got a girlfriend first, or you did. You got girlfriend first the same time, yeah. And then it got weird, yeah. Yeah, classic, classic, yeah, and it's like, no, I'm not, I just don't, it's it's I'm not jealous. You're like, really? Okay, um, okay, so we have one more. I became friends with a friend of my girlfriends when things were quite rocky between us, and we were both unhappy in life and the relationship. Okay, sorry. So she's friends with a friend of her girlfriends. Okay. Okay, sorry. I just had to like unwind that in my mind, want to make sure we're all on the same page. Okay, so a friend of her girlfriend's friend, they get close. It was always quite flirty between us, and I fancied her, but didn't think much of it because I knew I was just generally unhappy at the time. We talked every day and became very close. My girlfriend broke up, or me and my girlfriend broke up. And then we, me and the friend, stayed friends, as did my ex and I. Of course, you and the friends. Everyone's still friends. So this is just one big web. But I moved across, or just said I moved country. I don't know if it's across the country to a different country, what? So we stayed talking nonstop every day for months. I went back to visit and stayed with her and was just wanting something to happen. I realized I had to tell her how I felt. So I texted her when I got back. She took the leap. She did the level. She said she didn't feel the same and didn't feel comfortable being friends anymore. Oh no. And then she said, I'm probably the asshole in this situation, to be honest, as my ex would be very hurt by all of this if we got together. She'd be hurt if she knew of any of this, so I'm keeping it to myself. Dot dot dot.

Speaker 1:

No. I'm happy that you took the leap. That's so hard to do. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And like I said before, unrequited love is not a thing. I don't know. I just don't buy it. It's like you don't. I think especially this happens a lot with women where it's like, oh, you're crazy. I don't. I mean, you see it a lot more in like straight relationships where a guy will say, Oh, that's not true. Like, I I don't know why you're so crazy. Like, you're just so obsessed with me. It's like, I'm not gonna be let myself start to get into you if I don't feel an opening. There has to be an opening there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

I've been with people that I wasn't into that were in that were into me in that way.

Speaker 2:

Yes, but you had to have been giving them some sort of sign. You were probably having sex with them.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I was, but that doesn't mean that I think I wasn't in love with them.

Speaker 2:

Oh, not at in love. Or like even an opening. That is a literal opening.

Speaker 1:

I don't know.

Speaker 2:

Is it?

Speaker 1:

Honey, come on. I mean, you can hook up with people and not have feelings for them, and the other person have feelings for you. That's a thing. Yes, yes. But You've also experienced that where guys have fallen in love with you, you're having sex with them, and you're not into them.

Speaker 2:

I don't know about falling in love, but developing feelings, yeah. But that I don't know.

Speaker 1:

I'm saying this My thing is like, I feel like it's not unre like if you're in a situation where you're like cuddling every night and it's so intense and almost that's not possible. But if you're like hooking up with somebody, that can definitely happen where somebody has feelings the other person doesn't.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I think feelings, but not love.

Speaker 1:

Because that's not I think they that's not like intimate.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. You know what I mean? But I don't think that they're I don't think that somebody who hooks up with somebody and they develop emotional feelings. I don't know if that's like real love. They just think that it is a real it's just an attachment versus this kind like you said, this is more intimate without sex confusing things. Exactly. But it's still I don't know. There's there's a feeling there. I'm just happy you you sh you shot your shot. You shot your shot, yeah. And honestly, okay.

Speaker 1:

More than I can say. I didn't shoot my shot. Yeah, I had to shoot the shot. I know, and now we're married. So you you know, you gotta shoot the shot. But don't take it to the show.

Speaker 2:

The other thing I was gonna say, don't take it from me, take it from my wife. The other thing I was gonna say is even though it didn't go the way that you wanted it to, it's still I can't appreciate that she at least said, okay, we can't be friends anymore, because that still that won't confuse things. It's not like, oh, I don't feel the same way, but then kept acting the same way, and then we're like, no, no, no, but I don't feel the same way. But then you know that just messes with your emotions. So it's like not the answer that you want, but at least there is this clear boundary, and it's like, but that is really hard.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2:

So those are all of our submissions. Wow, those were so good. They're so good. I should have pulled more. I thought we were gonna have more to say, but so I I feel like my biggest what is this called again?

Speaker 1:

Because I feel like takeaway? No, homoerotic relationship dynamic friendship. Yeah, I don't know. It's a mouthful, it's a mouthful, but mine was in high school. Okay, give us the dirty deeds. And I was a senior in high school, I was on the varsity soccer team. No big deal. And this girl was a sophomore. Honey. On the soccer team. Cradle robber. You know what? And I think it's important because I think it's important to note because like my core friend group, we were all like in the same grade together. I've never really felt attracted to my straight friends before.

Speaker 2:

Yes, really.

Speaker 1:

So this girl was like not one of my core friends. She was like on the soccer team, and we like started to get to know each other through soccer.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And then we started to kind of like hit it off, and we were like definitely flirting, and we started to like spend a lot of time together. Like, and I had my driver's license, she didn't yet. So I'd like, I would go over to her house or like pick her up. We would like go on like ice cream dates and stuff, like very wholesome. Yeah, very high school, but like we're just like best friends. And I feel like it started to like culminate as I was like getting close to graduating from high school. I remember there was like this party that we went to together, and we were gonna like stay over at our friend's house who was hosting the party. And I just remember like near the we're like kind of drunk, and near the end of the party, we're like kind of Laying on the floor, like super close together, like talking and like this sounds familiar. Thought like we were gonna kiss or whatever. Sounds like us. And then she like got really freaked out, basically. And didn't you? And you weren't freaked out. She went and like went and like go kissed kissed a boy or whatever. But before that, we would like talk on the phone like several nights a week till like two in the morning. Just like we couldn't like get enough of each other in that way. And then basically, like when I graduated, she started dating a boy, and I went off to college, and we like basically like slow faded after that after that. But at the time, I didn't I remember feeling really excited about it, like you know, that like desire of like I want to talk to this person all the time, I want to be around them all the time, I want to be close to them, like oh, at the party, like I wanted to sleep next to her, like all of these things. But I never would have admitted it to myself that I had feelings for her, even though I very obviously did. And then I remember when I came out like three years later looking back on that, being like, oh, I was so into that girl, like and just feeling like so embarrassed for my younger self, but also like it's cute, thinking about it in this cute way. Yeah, like it is so sweet to think about, yeah, because it is so wholesome because it's not like you know, it's so it was so high school, you know, like or so middle school, honestly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Of like just like the sweetest moments and times together.

Speaker 2:

As far as you know, is straight, calls herself straight.

Speaker 1:

She got pregnant from like that boyfriend, like when she was 18. Oh, and then yeah, and so kind of like got married, yeah, and did that whole thing. Yeah, so she I don't think she ever really explored at all.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. So it's like we'll never know. But again, who know? I don't know. I guess maybe when you're a lot younger too, and hormones are raging, I could see it being, you know, more I I don't know. I just I can't, I have a hard time accepting that queer people it's like no, she has to be biased, she's literally letters and scrapbooks and like just making me arts and crafts shit. That even if she didn't know that's you know gay. Yes. I I mean I just even think about how it was it it still is very normal. I mean, cruel intentions set the precedent where it's like learn how to make out with a boy via your girlfriend, and that's not gay at all. You just make out with each other all the time. It's like I was making out with my friend, like specifically one friend who this wasn't just like a bunch of different friends, it was like one friend, super young, where we're like, oh yeah, let's practice.

Speaker 1:

How old were you?

Speaker 2:

Okay, we don't need to get into the ages, we were very young. But it's like the first it's funny to think about now that the first time I like did anything beyond kissing with anyone, boy or girl, was with a girl.

Speaker 1:

But to practice for boys. To practice for boys, and then you're like, we gotta keep practicing because you know we gotta make sure we get it right. Right.

Speaker 2:

I was very committed.

Speaker 1:

You guys practiced for like two years.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we practiced for several years for many hours. Like it was just like, what? What? That is crazy.

Speaker 1:

Uh yeah, it just reminds me of this Joan Diddy and quote. It's we tell ourselves, we tell ourselves stories in order to live. Like we basically lie to ourselves so that we can like keep moving forward with our lives. And it's just like, we gotta keep practicing, so we're perfect at this. We did that for three years.

Speaker 2:

Like, and that one I will say, you know, because it's like I always say that I I haven't felt a lot of shame around my sexuality. But that one I did know that it was weird in the sense like, oh, I can't tell other people this. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1:

Like you hit it. You didn't tell your friends you guys were practicing.

Speaker 2:

No, like I think we had told them sometimes, like, oh yeah, we've made out before, like, because we're so advanced and we know how to like kiss with tongue now, like that kind of thing. But we would never tell that anything else happened because we knew that was like really weird and bad, you know, perceived that way, obviously. And that's like the only time I've ever really felt like, oh, I should hide this. Yeah. And I was super young, you know, it's like in middle school. So it's like that kind of just set.

Speaker 1:

Honestly, that's so cute. I know so many people who have that same experience. Like in like middle school, we're doing that with their girlfriends. Like many people I dated had the same experience as you. So I think it's pretty common.

Speaker 2:

But then it's like that, even just that little piece of shame, I feel like set the precedent for me to not come out until I was 31. Because it was like, did that girl ever come out?

Speaker 1:

Because my ex-girlfriend had the same experience as you as like in like sixth grade or something, was like hooking up with this girl like to practice for boys, and then she came out like whatever, like my ex-girlfriend came out like I don't know, 25. And then that girl came out at like 28 or 29, 30, something like later in life, but she ended up coming out and they're like friends and stuff now.

Speaker 2:

But it's wild. I well, yeah. So ours was more like we went to different high schools, and like, you know, so we we grew apart so long ago. I have no idea. I don't have her on socials or anything. I have no idea, but yeah, it's just uh, you know, it's a real thing. Okay, that's all I'm gonna say. If you're having if you are, I know that there are straight people who listen to this podcast because they write into us a lot. And you know, I say I should say allegedly straight. Allegedly straight people, but and if they're listening to this, like I've never had a friendship like this. Okay, maybe you are straight. Maybe you are straight. But if you have had a friendship and you're like, oh yeah, now that I think about it, I do those things, it's like just saying, just saying. That's all. Just gonna leave that there. No, but there, I mean, there's obviously there is a huge spectrum too, and it is it's just it's scary. There's so much on the line. Like you said, it's like there's friendships on the line, but there's also, as you said for high school, it's like you're quite it can when it's also you coming out, then it's like your whole identity is on the line. It's like, what does this mean about me? Am I gay?

Speaker 1:

Does this mean like it can make your whole world feel like it's crumbling around you like at that time if it's questioning your identity? It's so intense.

Speaker 2:

So shoot your shot.

Speaker 1:

Wow, those stories were so good.

Speaker 2:

So, so good. We love you, and we'll wrap it up with who's the problem?

Speaker 1:

Okay, do you want me to go first? Mine's kind of on brand of the episode that we did today. But I guess the question is who's the problem? Like, is it in the in the scenario where there's a homoerotic friendship, and let's say one person's queer and one person's straight, and like the straight like who's who is there a problem in that situation? Like, what's the thing? Meaning that like, okay, so let's if you have if you okay, let's say there's a straight person and a queer person in a homoerotic situation ship and um the queer person does shoot the shot, like this person did, okay, and they get shot down. Like who's the problem? Because we said like there's probably there's probably no real unrequited love there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean I don't want to like label I I don't I think that the straight person, yeah, Lex's whispering society is the problem. That is the the answer because it's like the straight person who's probably not straight, they're just not ready to come out yet, you know.

Speaker 1:

So it's like it might be a lot for them to accept their identity.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. But I don't know. It's like I guess how who's the problem like in any of the homoerotic friendships? Like, how do you prevent yourself from getting into them? I don't know, you know, but I think it again, because of society, it's how do we keep ending up in these scenarios? Because it's so easy as women, that's what I'm saying. It's so easy to just kind of like cross over the line into so we're the problem. Is that what you're trying to say? No. But I think if there was, yeah, less shame around gayness and sexuality and coming out to where you could like feel more free to explore that, like that's the problem, right? Because it's like we have this openness and this intimacy that's a fucking gift as a woman to be able to have that, but it's the shame or guilt or questioning or whatever it is that blocks us from like really exploring it. And yeah, so I think I'm all for the homoerotic friendships, you know? It's how I got a wife. There you go. So we totally dropped the ball. And as soon as we were done recording, producer Lex, who if you're on YouTube, you see is sitting with me. Hello, she was like, You guys, we need to talk about Wicked. What the hell?

Speaker 3:

I feel like I failed as a producer, especially for a queer podcast. Are you kidding me? So apologies, but at least we caught it in time to create a little segment.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So we're gonna hop in. Me and Lex are gonna hop in and talk about Wicked because this is the homoerotic WLW friendship of the century, the season, our lifetime.

Speaker 3:

Without a doubt.

Speaker 2:

So I mean, it and there's kind of two components to it, where it's the movie itself, Glinda and Alphaba, and then also Ari and Cynthia, IRL. Yeah. So let's just talk about the movie first. But do you, first of all, do you I know what you think, but do you think they're queer? And do you think there is more than just friendship there?

Speaker 3:

Great question. I think from my perspective, if we're talking about Wicked, the movie, yeah, just even what I've read about John Chu and the director and his perspective, his take on this film, I think for sure it's queer-coded. Like maybe it's not outright, like the girls are in love with each other, but the love that they share is I think it's undeniably a fiery connection that you're kind of always wondering throughout the whole film, like, will they, won't they? You know, you're kind of waiting for the makeout scene. Yeah. Um, I even felt like like Alphabet and Fiero's like lovemaking scene is kind of like want wont. Like you're like, really? I don't know. It was a little unbelievable for me because the chemistry between the two female characters is so beautiful. Oh my gosh, it's so, it's so good.

Speaker 2:

So how about you? I don't know. I mean, I I guess what I wonder is like, okay, is it just because I think everyone's gay? Yeah, I do too. And I know you do too. Some always like I'm always waiting for girls to make out. I'm like, whatever, they'll figure it out eventually. But I'm like, maybe a non-queer person, if they exist, alleged straight people. When you it's like when they watched it, do you think that that's what they saw? I don't, that's what I wonder.

Speaker 3:

Such a good question. I'm I lean into your camp of like, isn't everyone gay? So it's hard for me to, and as you know, I'm someone that like I always admit, like, I think all my friends are hot. So like the girls kind of like flirting or or sharing that intimacy doesn't, I don't know. It's so natural and normal for me personally, but I I think probably straight people don't notice because they're probably in denial themselves of those relationships that exist within their own life, which I know we've yeah talked about.

Speaker 2:

Like they talked about, which is that whole, you know, again, societally it's so easy for women to have that intimacy. And for the most part, people don't side-eye it, and they're not like, you know, if guys were having that kind of intimacy, definitely people would be like, You're so gay. Sure. And it would be this whole thing, whereas women can do that more freely.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

And I think there's I mean, the supposed straight women out there, I think they could say, Yeah, I've had really deep female friendships, but I I I don't want to make out with them. But I have that kind of chemistry and love there. Yeah. But there's not like a sexual tension there. Sure.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Which I didn't, I guess, yeah, I didn't feel as much like a sexual tension between them as it was just like a deep, deep intimacy.

Speaker 3:

Totally. And you know, there's a scene where they sing, um, well, I mean, there's so many things, but there's a scene where Alphaba says to Glinda, you know, I've never had a friend, or I've never had a friend like you. And Glinda says, and I've had many friends. I've had many friends, you know, but none like you, or something like that. I totally botched it. But, you know, I think that that's like a very coded moment of being like, like, I think that John Shu builds a beautiful tension for us to really like wonder. Like, I don't think they answer the question, to be honest. I think they more ask it. Like, I don't know, are they in love? Because that moment could have been romantic also if they had used, you know, a different word than friend. It's like, I owe you there's no one I've met like you. And they're kind of acknowledging this like incredibly special bond and special relationship.

Speaker 2:

So and it's also, I mean, I guess, okay, so, and I know I told you this before, but my kind of hot take around it, where it's like it is so cute and wholesome in some ways, but there's also in some ways, if there's like a toxicity to that kind of friendship. Oh, yeah. Because because of the codependency, because the lack of clarity, because they both end up with dudes, it's like because they didn't. They put on each other, jealousy, that yeah, it's like you're putting as much expectation on them as a friend as you would a life partner.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

And then I'm sure some people can argue, like, oh, but you can have friend soulmates, you can have friend life partners too, you know, and like we do have, but it's just, I don't know, there's something about it that feels like not messy. Yes, maybe it's more messy. Maybe they're more toxic.

Speaker 3:

I mean, they have a fight scene in the movie. Right. Like, I think that it's I think your point is super supported by the film. Like they fight, they backstab each other, they do things that they're not proud of. And I think, I think even in my own personal experiences, I can definitely say when I've had the friendships that were totally more than friends, but we're both like exploring and realizing things about ourselves, it exploded because there weren't clear boundaries, right? There weren't boundaries of like, this is my expectation of you as a friend. You know, can you meet this? And I think similar, and are we choosing to be friends? More importantly, are we choosing to be friends or romantic? Yeah, what is this? Um, but even in friendship, like you were saying, we don't set those boundaries like we do in romantic relationships. I mean, a lot of us don't even set them in romantic relationships.

Speaker 2:

But even with romantic relationships, there's usually these levels where it's like we're dating each other and now we're exclusive and now we're play fan girlfriend, or you know, whatever it is. And so those are even if you don't have a deep discussion of what do these things mean, they kind of there's insinuations there. Whereas with friends, it's like, yeah, you do kind of start as acquaintances, or you know, and it does, but you don't have someone doesn't sit and take you out to dinner and say, Will you be my my real friend now? You're no longer an acquaintance, you're like my actual friend now.

Speaker 3:

And this is what it means to be my friend, yeah, right? Because I think as I get older, I am doing that with my friends, which sounds really unromantic, but it's actually I think the most romantic and healthy thing you can do for and romantic is uh, you know, not exactly the right word, but just like loving. It's a loving thing to do, to say to a friend, like, I just want to set you up for success, and this is my boundaries and what are yours, and like this is what I can provide you, this is what I'm looking for, and this is what I can't. Like this is what I cannot show up for, and I don't want you to feel like I'm a bad friend because of it. And I feel like I have such a weightlift off my shoulders in the relationships I have now that are so much more honest, and I feel like there's a lack of honesty between Alphaba and Glinda just around, and it's not even like malintentioned, right?

Speaker 2:

It's just like it's just confusion and confusion, right? And that's the part, it's like you have to have grace for people in the closet. I understand it's messy, it's confusing, there's guilt, there's shame, there's all of these feelings that come with it. Your whole identity is being questioned. Yes, and so it is very overwhelming. It can be at least, it's not for everyone, but it can be very overwhelming. And I think you know, it's like it's a process, even hetero friendships, like if both people are straight, but even if they're not straight, I feel like even if someone's queer or bi and having a hetero friendship, you you do have a little bit stronger boundaries, or you would more clearly be like, look, what is this? Because it kind of feels but when it is same sex, yes, first what I even like Alex was saying, how she had this experience with they were both out lesbians, so even though it's same-sex attraction, known thing, yeah, it's like still, why don't we have these conversations? I don't know.

Speaker 3:

I don't know. It's just not, it's it's I keep blaming society for all these things because it's like it's it's not the norm. You know, we're fed a lot of what it's supposed to look like romantically and cishat relationships through the movies and TV, and the representation of these kinds of friendships isn't there. So I think that's kind of the first reason I think of of like, we just don't know how to do it. We're not taught, we're not gonna.

Speaker 2:

Well, and it can also be like a lack of honesty with yourself if you're not willing to accept that the feeling there is more than a friendship love. It's I think that that's what makes it, it's like, okay, I do have more grace for somebody who's navigating, coming out than just somebody who's, you know, choosing to manipulate or withhold or you know, try to control a situation. It's not, that's not what's happening. And that's maybe that's what I mean by the toxicity or the messiness, because it's like there's just a lot that has not been worked through yet.

Speaker 3:

That's not clear and defined, and it just gets really messy.

Speaker 2:

But then what do you think about their relationship IRL in real life? Yeah. Because it feels the same.

Speaker 3:

It totally does. Um, you know, I'm reading Cynthia Rivaux's book right now, which is phenomenal, and she talks about how when they both got the roles, they made this pact to protect each other on set. And, you know, it was a very high demand role for both of them. It was a freaking huge movie with a lot on the line. And so they really decided at the very beginning, talk about boundaries and like, you know, agreements. They agreed to always advocate for each other when they needed rest or they needed a break or they just needed a moment to be alone. Like they kind of established this really clear communication. So for me, I think that the public interpret interprets this really intimate um bond as sexual, which of course I think we all want it to be secretly also. Like that would just be the hottest thing ever. Um, but when I look at it, I see more like just incredibly intimate friends who don't necessarily, it doesn't have to be about sex, which is something the public also isn't used to seeing. Right. So for me, although it's like obviously my biggest dream would be for them to hook up, but they're also both in really lovely relationships. So I don't know if I actually would I know. But um, but I think for me, I'm just like, I don't know. I think people just aren't used to seeing that kind of intimate friendship.

Speaker 2:

Like for myself, because I I totally hear what you're saying, but even just from myself um My interpretation of it, that I'm like, I wonder if I would think the same thing if Cynthia wasn't an out lesbian. You know what I mean? If they were both straight, would we be thinking the same thing? Or is it sexualized because you know what I mean? Like lesbians are sexualized.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, totally. That's a good point.

Speaker 2:

Even for myself, I almost have that preconception of like, oh, if they were just, you know, straight actresses, would I still think that? I don't know. I really I don't know because they're not, so we'll never know.

Speaker 3:

So true. I think women are sexualized so much that like even if they were straight, I think men would have been.

Speaker 2:

But I think okay, this is a good example. Or did you watch The Hunting Wives?

Speaker 3:

No, but I've heard crazy things about it.

Speaker 2:

So Brittany Snow and the Malin, I forget her last name, but the other lead actress who they have a love story in the in the show.

Speaker 3:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And I mean it's like toxic as hell and all this stuff. And there's a little bit of a kind of like friend component, you know. And they're when they're doing press, they're also very close. They're also very charismatic and all these things. But as far as I know, they're straight. And I I've never seen anyone be like, I mean, jokingly, people will be like, Oh, I wish you guys were gay. I've heard that. Right, right. But not like, do you think they're acting? Is there, you know what I mean? Interesting. And same with myself. It's like I just put them in this different category because they're straight. So I'm like, oh, it's just not even possible for them.

Speaker 3:

Interesting. I I haven't seen it, so I can't speak to it. But I wonder if their intimacy off-screen is like Cynthia and Ariana. No. And what they doesn't even compare. I mean what they had to go through was like such a crazy experience. I think that's what we're witnessing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Maybe.

unknown:

I don't know.

Speaker 2:

We'll never know. And I mean, it's also, it's like all PR. This is what they do with couples. It's fake though. Do you think it's no? I don't think it's fake, but I'm like, I do wonder if they play it up more or if it is, you know what I mean? It's like how much starts from them and how much starts from fan reactions that then they're feeding from that. And they're like, oh, people are into this queer narrative. So like let's feed it a little bit.

Speaker 3:

But we also love each other. So you're so right. I think they totally fed into like the queer playfulness of it. And it is like an opportunity for, I don't know, two beautiful queer women to be holding hands and like, you know, affectionate with each other and like kind of like fucking with the world's discomfort and like, you know, just pushing boundaries. So I'm sure they did. I also just wonder if there's like a bit of an emotional exhale that comes from like finishing a project like that. And then you're boom, off on tour, like in front of cameras doing PR. And I'm just like, I don't know. Like, I think the internet is really obviously cruel when they criticize, you know, the tears, the emotion, like how they're always crying in interviews and stuff. And I'm like, or like they're pouring of compliments and admiration for each other. But I'm like, I don't know. I just see what they went through was like boot camp. And they're coming out. Like, yeah, they're exactly they're coming down from a crazy high. Yes. So queer or not queer, I feel like that's understandable. So I don't know.

Speaker 2:

Do you think that because like you said, it is kind of I forget exactly what you just said, but as far as like playing with expectations and pushing down boundaries, but do you think like what's the difference between that and queer baiting then? You know? But then it's like, is it okay because they're queer?

Speaker 3:

So then what how do you define queer baiting? I don't know if I really like queer.

Speaker 2:

Queer baiting to where it's like making it seem like there's going to be queer, a queer love story, or there's like some something queer to see. So that's why we're watching it, but then it never happens, or like that person typically that person is not actually queer at all. They're a straight person kind of trying to draw queers in.

Speaker 3:

I think that's the difference. I think the fact that like Jonathan Bailey, Cynthia Revo, and Ari are gay. Yeah, I I don't know. I think it's more about representation and and queer-coded storylines.

Speaker 2:

Right, instead of like overtly queer.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I don't know when when straight people do it, it just makes me more mad. Like, obviously. Yeah, I think that's the part that's just like ugh.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, which again, back to the Britney, Snow, and Mollin example. If they were pretending like, ooh, we do have this off-screen chemistry, then it would be like, well, exactly.

Speaker 3:

That's queer being, I feel like. Because you're kind of like, yeah, dangling the carrot in front of the queers being like, Will it won't it, but in kind of a more mean way.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, more PR-driven way.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, I don't know. I mean, they're they are the friendship to watch. So it's a good example of codependency, lack of boundaries, lack of communication, but also like a very beautiful intimacy, yeah, and real deep feelings. And it's kind of like, yeah, what is the difference between intimacy that is sexualized versus non-sexualized? And also queerness is a spectrum, which is why, you know, you might feel that intimacy, but you don't want to sexualize it. And that's kind of where you're at on the spectrum. You know, you don't want to have a physical experience with someone of the same sex.

Speaker 3:

So totally. I think it's really interesting that Alphabet and Glinda represent the toxic, you know, codependent, like you said, this um hetero or homoerotic uh love or friendship. But then Cynthia and Ari actually kind of represent the like they did boundaries. They did communicate. Isn't that interesting? And so both are an example of kind of like well done versus like, oh, that could have been done better. Yes. Yeah, so we can use them as opportunities to learn to.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming on.

Speaker 3:

I'm so glad we got to talk about Wicked. Thanks for having me. I'm so glad we got a chance to squeak this in. Yay! Yay!

Speaker 2:

Okay, my Who's the Problem is a very different direction, but we've been traveling a lot lately, uh-huh, and this has come up a lot. Okay, and this is a heated, heated discussion. So I really hope that you know we don't get canceled for this. This might be worse than the turf talk. No, I'm just kidding. It's really not that bad. But you know, the debate over like, is it okay to recline your seat in an airplane or not? And there's some people that are like, that's so fucked up. I can't believe they recline their seat and now I have less space. And then there's people like me, I'm a recliner. I'm a recliner. Okay, so that's what I'm saying. But people get mad about that. But I'm like, there shouldn't be a reclining button if it's That's exactly how I feel.

Speaker 1:

If I'm not supposed to recline my seat, then there shouldn't be a button that lets me do it. Because I'm gonna do it.

Speaker 2:

What? Like, I don't understand. But I people sometimes I recline, I hear the person be like, oh, behind me. And I'm like, I'm so recline yours.

Speaker 1:

Let's all recline, and then we're all the same. Exactly. Like, let's just all recline. All lean back. Just a nice. Everyone at once, click the button, and then we're all the same amount of space.

Speaker 2:

So that's what I'm saying. I know this is gonna be a heated debate. I'm gonna put this poll up. Who's the problem? The recliner or the non-recliner?

Speaker 1:

You ever see those videos where it's like people will try to like put in those devices to prevent people from reclining, or they'll like force the seat up and people get mad aggro about it.

Speaker 2:

People get violent, they get crazy. Like, I don't, it's it's a lot. I'm gonna recline my seat. Yeah, I'm a recliner. I'm just gonna I'm gonna put it out there now while we're still small. We are recliners, you guys. Okay. So once we get huge and we're just blowing up everywhere, they can never point back and be like, I thought you were we're we're on the record as recliners. We wanna go on the record as recliners who are pro-homoerotic friendships, okay? That was amazing.

Speaker 1:

We love what a great start to Nicaragua.

Speaker 2:

And we will see you next week. See you next week. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the show. We're so happy to have you here. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you're listening to podcasts. We love getting commentary from you on Spotify and on YouTube. And as always, if you love this episode or any of our episodes, make sure to share it with a friend or somebody who will appreciate the conversation.

Speaker 1:

And make sure to follow us on all our socials at WivesNot Sisterspod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Thanks, guys. See you next week.