Wives Not Sisters
A playful, unfiltered podcast where a married wlw couple dives into the chaos of modern relationships, pop culture, queer lore, and all the little things most people wouldn’t admit out loud.
Wives Not Sisters is a queer-led podcast where marriage meets humor, honesty, and a little too much sharing but in the best way. We’re here to normalize nuance in relationships -- from romantic, platonic, familial, and everything in between- and to create a space where deep conversations and dumb jokes can coexist. Through real talk, playful debates, and just enough oversharing, we’re building a community that’s reflective, ridiculous, and radically relatable.
Wives Not Sisters
I Lost 50k Followers When I Came Out
What happens when you come out online—and thousands of people decide they’re done with you?
In this episode, Alix & Kayla unpack cancel culture, internet outrage, and the emotional, financial, and personal fallout of coming out publicly. From losing 50,000 followers to navigating homophobia disguised as “wellness,” they explore why the internet struggles with nuance, change, and coexistence—and why scrolling past the beans might save us all.
This is a raw, thoughtful conversation about queerness, yoga culture, social media power, cancel culture, and learning how to live outside the echo chamber.
00:00 – Intro: married, queer, and back online
02:10 – Cancelable or not? Internet apology culture
05:15 – Cancel culture vs real accountability
07:45 – Allegations, platforms & public judgment
12:50 – Cancel culture fatigue & social currency
14:30 – Coming out online & losing 50,000 followers
18:40 – COVID, internet culture & rising hostility
22:45 – “Colonizer,” “predator,” and wellness backlash
25:05 – Is social media a workplace? Queerness at work
32:20 – Why follower loss still matters
38:30 – Yoga, religion & spiritualized homophobia
43:00 – Inclusivity with an asterisk
47:00 – The Bean Soup Theory & online outrage
52:15 – Echo chambers, empathy & coexistence
01:04:00 – Who’s the problem? Public figures & politics
#QueerPodcast #CancelCulture #LGBTQPodcast #InternetCulture #ComingOutOnline #WellnessIndustry #QueerVoices #YogaCulture #SocialMediaTalk #WivesNotSisters
Connect with us on social media: IG: @wivesnotsisterspod | TikTok: @wivesnotsisterspod | Youtube: @wivesnotsisterspod
Follow our hosts on Instagram: @kaylalanielsen @alix_tucker
You can also watch our episodes on Youtube at youtube.com/@wivesnotsisterspod!
Hey guys, it's Alix. And Kayla. And we're married. Not related. Definitely codependent.
Speaker:But in a cute way. And we're back. We're here. We're queer. Our dog looks like a deer. Life is good. Yeah, no complaints. Yeah. Sorry. I'm just, I got sidetracked by the iPad because it's doing something. You're gonna do your big thank you like you always do? Oh, why don't you do it? Can't you ever say thank you? Thank you for all of the you discussed your account.
Speaker 1:No, no, we're good. Thank you. Thank you to all the sister wives and all of you who are out there sending us comments, submissions.
Speaker:We love it. Yes. And if you're watching on YouTube, then you'll see a new dog has just entered the screen. This is tortilla.
Speaker 1:A new dog has entered the chat.
Speaker:A new dog has entered the villa.
Speaker 1:This is tortilla.
Speaker:This is tortilla, and now she's gone because she's had enough, but she just needed you to know that she's here. She is also extremely queer, in case you were wondering. And yeah, keep sending us whatever you want to send us. Honestly, it's so entertaining for us. It is also super helpful when we get your feedback because it helps to give us ideas for topics and you know, like stuff that you guys are interested in. Shapes the direction of the pod. Yeah. So even if you just want to send us a DM or message, you know, an email, whatever, and say, hey, this would be a really good idea, then we're open. We love it. We love it even better. If you leave us a review, five stars, preferably. And yeah. What do you think of my shirt today? I love that shirt and you barely ever wear it. Okay, I'll wear it more. But your collar is a little fucky.
Speaker 1:It's all jacked up?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know what happened to it.
Speaker:Well, that's just technique alive.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker:Tropics. It is my turn to lead. Okay. And today we're talking about onlineness. Online-ness. The internet. How messy it is. The internet and the toxicity of it. And also, there's obviously huge benefits in it. So for the my turn to lead game, would like to do do you think this is a cancelable offense or not? So you can either just say canceled or no.
Speaker 1:I feel like I'm not gonna say canceled at all. Okay. But we'll see.
Speaker:Old feeds from 2012.
Speaker 1:Probably not.
Speaker:Public apology written in notes app.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker:I didn't know it was an offensive excuse.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's can I mean I don't know if I wouldn't cancel somebody for that. Like, are we talking about Sierra from Love Island?
Speaker:I I don't she didn't say that I didn't know it was offensive. She She didn't know it was offensive. She did say that. Right, right, right. But she also, when someone told her it was offensive, she deleted it right away.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker:So okay, what about Sierra from Love Island? What do you think of it?
Speaker 1:I don't think she should have been canceled at all.
Speaker:Do you think she should have been kicked off the show?
Speaker 1:No, not at all.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker 1:What if you are so like let's say you did I'm pretty anti-cancel, so I'm like, I don't know if you're gonna get me on one of these.
Speaker:Okay, so let's say that somebody did something bad, right? And whoever is calling them out, and they go to make their apology video and they're crying, but there's no tears in the video.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, fine, cancel them.
Speaker:Right. And it's like cancel, okay, cancel them.
Speaker 1:We don't care about your alligator tears or whatever.
Speaker:It's just like very Jax Taylor. I'm work in progress. It's not my fault. Okay. A creator deletes the post but never addresses it.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's fine. Do what you want to do. I don't feel like you need to be canceled for that.
Speaker:Okay. What if they apologize by saying, I'm sorry if anyone was offended by it?
Speaker 1:Totally fine.
Speaker:Um let's see. What about disabling com so this is like you might not cancel them for this, but do you think this is bad?
Speaker 1:I think it's okay to do.
Speaker:So, like, let's say they put up a post, they started getting an influx of comments being like, hey, this was shitty or wrong for whatever reason. And so they disable comments, but they leave the post up and then they never acknowledge any of it.
Speaker 1:I think it's fine. I'm like, look, the internet is such a weird place. I don't feel like these people need to defend themselves in like all these ways. Like, I people are gonna come for you no matter what you do. And if you try to make them happy, you're just gonna fail no matter what. Like, you're gonna fail.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker 1:So I'm just like, do what you think's best, and it's fine.
Speaker:Okay, but let's say that it is something more serious, like it's not a tweet from 2012 when you were 13 where you said something insensitive. But let's say, like, this has happened to people where you know how like lip syncing videos are really big. And let's say they're lip lip syncing a rap song that has the N-word in it. Okay. Do you think that that is cancelable or no?
Speaker 1:I don't think it should be cancelable, no.
Speaker:Do you think it's wrong?
Speaker 1:I think it's wrong, but I don't think it should like should be the end of someone's life.
Speaker:Right. I agree with that.
Speaker 1:And like their ability to work and like all of these things. And how do you think someone should handle something like that? I think they should say, like, yeah, that was wrong. I shouldn't have done it. I realize it was wrong, I won't do it again.
Speaker:Should they delete the video?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think in general, deleting the video is probably the right approach. Yeah.
Speaker:And then apologize sincerely. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But everyone's gonna everyone's gonna try to decide if you're sincere or not. And so you it's a lose-lose balance.
Speaker:Sincerely meaning, like, don't do the crying with no tears thing. Sincerely, in the most sincere way you can. Yes, people will always pick holes in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker:But like how I'm just, yeah, how they should handle something like that.
Speaker 1:Where it's like if you're saying people are gonna forget about it in five seconds. So I'm just like, just apologize, delete it, and like move on, you know.
Speaker:Okay. So what about sexual allegations?
Speaker 1:What do you mean?
Speaker:Like sexual like your child molester? Child molester, let's start there. How to file.
Speaker 1:Are they proven allegations? Are they real? Like, how do what are we talking about?
Speaker:Okay, let's do two. Let's say they're allegations, not proven. That's a how would you what should they do? Yeah. No, how would like do you if that was somebody that you looked up to or liked, even not like an influencer, but I'm saying like a public figure, whatever they are. And there started becoming these allegations coming out about them, would you would that change the way that you look at them?
Speaker 1:I would want to know more first. It wouldn't immediately change the way I thought about them.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker 1:I know that might be controversial, but like I would want to know more first. If if it's just like, hey, there's this allegation out there, I'd be like, oh, that's interesting. Didn't expect that. I want to know more, but I'm not immediately like this happened.
Speaker:Okay. And if it's proven in the court, then it definitely changes the way I feel about that. And do you think that they should be able to still have the the career that they do? Like some let's talk like Michael Jackson. You know what I mean? Like that level of success.
Speaker 1:It wasn't proven.
Speaker:I'm saying as an example of that level of success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it should impact them in some way.
Speaker:That they shouldn't have that platform anymore, essentially.
Speaker 1:I don't feel like I get to decide whether you have a platform or not. Well, the way that you're an individual.
Speaker:The way that you get to decide is if you were following them, would you unfollow them? Probably, yeah. Okay. And then let's say sexual allegations not against children, but against an adult. An adult. Yeah. Yeah, similar. Same. It would be the same thing that if they were just allegations and you would say, I still want to know more.
Speaker 1:And if it was I feel like people get to like have their day in court, you know?
Speaker:Like I mean, I don't agree personally, as somebody who has gone to court and pressed charges against someone for domestic violence who was then found not guilty. Yeah. And exactly what you're talking about is like everybody who was like on the fence, as soon as it was not guilty, they're like, oh, okay, she is a liar. And that obviously happens a lot. It also happens that people lie.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker:People lie. You know, like both things happen. But I think people who have experienced whatever kind of whatever it may be, that kind of violence or assault in whatever way, then I would imagine they tend to err more on the side of believing victims because they are a victim and they know they would never lie about that. Or like they wanted to be believed, or they're like projecting their own experience onto it.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker:You know, versus somebody who doesn't have that experience could be like, well, you're almost able to be like a little bit more rational, rational, rational, rational about less emotional.
Speaker 1:I just think it's like today we're so quick to destroy people's lives for way smaller things than like something as serious as a sexual assault, you know? Um, and it could be like for disagreeing with an opinion that they have. It's like now we have to tear them down, or because they cheated on somebody, we have to destroy their lives and their career. You know, Janae and Craig, or Janae and whatever that guy's name was Kenny.
Speaker:It wasn't just about cheating, though. That was more racial.
Speaker 1:But it's like it's but it could be something like just cheating, and we have to destroy them. So for me, I'm like, I just don't want to be a part of that.
Speaker:Right. But I think there's a difference between we have to destroy them, and if you originally like, let's take the Janae and Kenny thing, for example, and let's assume it was just cheating and there wasn't the racial component to it. And you liked them as a couple, you know, and you you kind of like Janae more, but you're like, I like Kenny because it's Janae's guy, and then that you find that out he cheated on her, and you're like, I don't want to follow him anymore. Like, I don't care who he dates next. I don't care about his life anymore. It doesn't mean I want your career to be over, it just means like I just don't care about you anymore.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker:I think that's fine, that's fair.
Speaker 1:That's different than like writing you so you But what happens is I feel like it's usually some people are that, but usually it's like we have to take this guy down.
Speaker:Well, that's what I was gonna say. So you see this on Reddit a lot, like on snark pages, because there's snark pages dedicated to like different public figures, different podcasts, even, you know, like different groups. And you see this sometimes where they'll be like, Oh, hey, everybody write to their sponsors and tell them this. They'll like put up a fucking template letter.
Speaker 1:It's crazy. And now it's getting to the point where it's like this whole like dox scene thing where it's like now, like let's release where their their addresses, their phone number, their bank accounts, like all this stuff. It's like, Jesus, people.
Speaker:Right, relax. Because the thing is, is like, you know, as somebody who has been online for a very long time, the even if you are an entrepreneur, at the same time, your followers are essentially your boss. So they do have this power over you. And and you, as a follower of someone else, like that's it's the same as like being a consumer of a product. You're the consumer. You are in power, you do have power of where you spend your dollars, whether those are actual dollars or like energetic dollars that you're doing online, where it's like you're just your energy where you're putting your time, your effort, your likes. So if you don't like someone anymore, you can just unfollow them. And that can be enough to alter their career. Because if enough people don't like them anymore because of some sort of scandal, that will inevitably like there's a trickle-down effect that that does impact, you know, brand deals and all of that kind of stuff. Sometimes it can have the opposite effect where even if it's a scandal and they're in the wrong, their engagement is off the freaking charts. So even if they're losing followers, there's still a name that is causing a lot of engagement, and that can be attractive for certain brands. It's very specific, you know, when you think about something like Scandaval, it's like, what kind of brand is gonna ask him to represent them at that time versus Ariana, of course. So yeah, I agree that it's it is people are allowed to make mistakes. I this is, I mean, by the time this is coming out, this is 2026. We're we all know that cancel culture is toxic.
Speaker 1:Out of control.
Speaker:I think that even people who are pretty far left can agree with that at this point. Like I've seen people agree with that at this point. So this isn't like a new thing that we're saying something totally radical that we don't think cancel culture should be a thing. But it's just this idea of kind of like discerning when and where to spend your kind of social currency. And yeah, so I wanted to share a little bit about my story. About I've shared this before online, but never in long form content. And it feels important because particularly at least the way that I share online, I'm not doing long story times or super long form content. I'm saying super as in like a minute-long video. You know, these are like pretty short reels. Um, or you know, wherever it is. And so I think it is kind of it's good to be able to dive into the nuance a little bit of it. But yeah, so I came out in 2020. As we know, if you want to hear more about that, listen to the coming out confusion episode. Alex and I both talk about our coming out stories. But I came out in 2020, and I feel like that's important because in 2020, people are like, no one cares if you're gay. It's 2020. Get over yourself, you know? Not true. And when I came out in 2020, I don't remember exactly how many followers I had at the time. It was in the 200,000 range, somewhere in there. And over time, this was not overnight. It wasn't like I posted with you and then immediately lost 50,000 followers, but it was over time that I ended up losing 50,000 followers when I came out. And I knew, and this, by the way, still happens that when I post gay content, even if it's just like gay as in my existence, because I'm married to a woman and not a man, and therefore is gay. It's not even like pushing this kind of sometimes. I do make outwardly gay content, but sometimes it's just like us living our lives, and that's too gay for people. And I still will usually lose between 500 to a thousand followers every time I post a picture with me. Yeah, about being gay or remind people, which at this point is honestly mind-blowing because I'm like, how do you not know by now? Like when you clicked follow on the profile, it was obvious. I have a podcast called Wives Not Sisters. What? What been around for six years now, like of posting with you, right? So, so yeah, it's just it's kind of interesting. And I've posted about this before, you know, and like I said, and people, there's kind of a few main responses that come up, and so I wanted to get into those. But the other thing that I thought was kind of interesting is you know how a lot of people are like, well, I feel like now, well, okay, there's two things. I came out in 2020 in February, so it was right before COVID. In COVID, internet culture dramatically shifted, and I don't think it's ever gone back and it's never gonna go back. And it's like everyone's mental health, regardless of internet, has never been the same since COVID.
Speaker 2:Ever.
Speaker:And it's only exacerbated online. And so that I think was part of it too. But you know how now it's like if you start like people are afraid to post online because they're like, well, I'm afraid of getting hate. Like that is just synonymous with if you're gonna post online, you're gonna get trol. Whereas when I started, it wasn't like that, it wasn't like that. It just I literally never got trolled, not one time until I started posting you. Which is crazy.
Speaker 1:You were in like a little blissful Zen yoga bubble where you didn't get trolle.
Speaker:Yeah, like the worst that it would be would be like, oh, you know, maybe like a comment about my alignment, or you know what I mean? It's like, oh, a Shanga yoga is better. I don't know, it'd be something that's it's not even trolling. It's just like that's how bad it, you know, it'd be like nerdy yoga comments.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker:So, and and I'm trying to think of like if I even got that, but maybe, maybe something like that. But you just I never got anything like that. And so I I just wasn't used to it, you know. It was like, whoa, this is so interesting to me that people have such strong opinions about my life, you know? So yeah, and I think the other reason that this is important is that this happens regardless. This isn't just to be an episode about like we need to tolerate gayness more. Like we already know that, right? Gyness is so illegal in a large portion of the world. There's we already we already know that. We don't need to, but it's like people are coming out, quote unquote coming out online all the time for all of these different things, right? Like, can you think of any examples of them? Yeah, for sure. Do you want to share one? Or just think it in your head.
Speaker 1:Well, I have one of them's gonna be my who's the problem.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker 1:You know, but it it could be anything. It could be like that you're I don't know.
Speaker:Okay. It could be politically affiliated. That's what I was gonna say, a political one is huge where people feel like they have to come out. I would say, particularly as conservative, you don't feel like you have to come out if you're liberal.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker:Not really. Maybe, maybe if you were in a certain bubble, you know, a certain demographic. Let's say you lived in the south and you were like in a church, or you know what I mean? And maybe that's more associated with being conservative, maybe, but I would say most people feel that same pressure or stress or shame of coming out as a conservative.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or religious if you like found religion, that could be a good thing. Or change religion. Or change religion, yeah. Like maybe you maybe you're converting to Judaism for your husband. Right. We have a friend going through that, and that's like a whole thing, right?
Speaker:Um, or well, another big one that I would see in wellness was people who went from vegan to not vegan. That's a big or like vegetable. Started eating meat. Yeah, they're like, I ate an egg, and people are like, What the fuck? Not an egg, you know, and you're like, Wow, why do you care so much? Why? Why? But it can happen for literally any niche, I feel like, where it's just somebody changes. Yeah, they changed their mind the way that they want to do things. Like, I'm thinking, even surf. It's like, what if someone's like, I don't actually want a shortboard anymore, I'm a longboarder now. People would have opinions, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Or what if you like didn't want to do ashtang and yoga anymore and you're like, I just want to do yin.
unknown:Right.
Speaker 1:Ashtang is too intense for me. People would lose their minds.
Speaker:Right. Or if if you are a traveler and used to post more kind of like budget traveling, this happens a lot too, especially when people start growing their accounts. Most of the time when people start, they don't have a lot of money. Yeah. And then when you start becoming an influencer, you start making more money and your lifestyle changes. And then people are like, Oh, well, that's not relatable anymore. You know, they don't like that anymore. If you used to travel one way and then you start going to more luxe places, people are like, Oh, I don't like you anymore. Anymore. You know, so it's just like your preferences can change.
Speaker 1:We don't like when people's preferences change.
Speaker:We have a hard time accepting change, I think, as like a human race. Which I think is not unique to post-COVID. I think that's just like a human tendency.
unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Change. There's been a lot of things that I didn't realize we were coming out about that we were gonna like get attacked for. Like that like that we did. Like, for example, buying land here. It's like, whoa, now we're like white colonists. Right. Or when we told the internet that, you know, we were having fertility struggles and like we were gonna do surrogacy and now we're like human traffickers, is what people say to us. So there's like things where it's like, I would just thought we were like gonna just talk about our life, our story. And then we're just getting attacked for these, you know, for these whole things. Yeah. Well, so sometimes you don't even realize like it's gonna be this whole situation.
Speaker:Not well, I was gonna say, particularly the colonist one was I felt the most surprised by that because fertility stuff, yes, people have super strong opinions about okay, that's another one. What if someone's like, yeah, I'm definitely gonna breastfeed and then they can't, or they don't do it as long as people want. That's a huge you like changing your mind around anything parenting or even just like pre-parenting the fertility part, people have strong ass opinions about. So I was like, Yeah, even when we continue to share, we've been trying for three years. There's been so many times where people are like, maybe you should, like, maybe it's a sign that you should stop trying. Like, maybe you should just give up, you know. Like people say really shitty stuff. Maybe you should not comment on strangers on the internet. Don't be like, what? You know, like they say it in this like pseudo-spiritual way that it just makes you want to break my phone. Um, but the colonist one did take me by surprise because, you know, when that came out, it was like every December, I get so nostalgic because we come back to Nika, and that's also like our anniversary of when we met. It's our wedding anniversary. So it's just a very special time. Yeah. And it's like we come back, we see our property, we've been away for a few months at that point. Everything has grown so much in the rainy season. So we're just like reflecting. We're like, oh, it's just like this really nice time of year for us. And I'll always make, you know, one video at least, whether it's for our actual wedding anniversary itself, of like this little story of us of, you know, like I just said I was going to Nicaragua to learn how to surf and then met a girl, blah, blah. You know, that that same old story you guys have all heard a million times. Um, and I so I made a video like that. And the story was not about it, yes, like buying land was a part, but it was literally like our love story. It was like this super cute video. It also took me so freaking long because it was, this was like a few years ago, so I just wasn't as fast. And it was probably a full minute-long reel where there's so many slides and texts and like all these things. And this is the thing that I'll say. I typically only start getting the worst comments if there's like more than a hundred. You know, so it's like a video has to gain some traction. If it's just like my initial people seeing it, they're great. It's when it starts going out to the masses that it gets weird. That's why TikTok has always been the worst, because it's like you're not necessarily feeding your community, the people who want to follow you. See strangers are seeing it and they're like, who is this dumb bitch buying land in Nicaragua? You know? And so, and then all it takes is one person to be like, wow, cute, you're making colonization a love story, you know, like making a comment like that. And then other people see it and they're like liking it, and then it gets all these likes, and now it's at the top, and then and then other people are like, Yeah, you colonist, you know, bitch. Like, what up there's and I'm like, what? Like, this is an anniversary post. What is happening right now?
Speaker 1:It's out of control. And then people are battling in the comments over it. Oh my god.
Speaker:Right. So yeah, I typically don't look at comments after a certain this is on my personal page. On the podcast page, I like to talk to you guys. We like engaging in conversation there. I would say the most overwhelming was the turf talk one. That was another good example of, you know, a post that was made where it's like, hey, lesbians are allowed to have preferences in who they date, and that doesn't make them transphobic, biphobic, whatever. It just means that they can choose to only date lesbians if that's what they want. 2,000 comments later, you know, I was like, holy shit, very eye-opening. It was great. We got to have a long-form discussion about it on the podcast, which is why I love this as a medium. But it is it's a lot.
Speaker 1:It's gonna be very overwhelming.
Speaker:Right. It is, it's a lot. So, anyways, got a little, got a little sidetracked there. So, in this specific instance of losing 50,000 followers, when I have shared that, there have been many responses, but these are the top three that I hear, and I I want to hear what you think. Okay, so the first one is that's what you get for bringing your personal life into your workplace.
Speaker 1:Oh, how would you respond? Come on, sweetheart. Okay, not the sweetheart. I mean, how would I respond? It's like, first of all, you're just living your life, like just post an acute dating pic of us, and then you lose thousands of followers, like that's what you get? I don't understand. Like, what did you do wrong to upset so many people by like it's essentially saying like I'm being unprofessional?
Speaker:That's how I interpret it, at least. Where it's like, well, you're bringing your personal life into your workplace, and like that can have repeating.
Speaker 1:If you were dating a guy and you posted a picture with a dude, you wouldn't lose a thousand followers every single time you did that.
Speaker:And this isn't an if, as in hypothetical. I had a boyfriend for three years while I was building my Instagram. Yeah. Never lost followers when I posted him. Yeah. Okay. So that is part of it. And the second part of it, I have a few things, a few things to tell the people. Okay. So, first of all, I do understand Instagram and I do see it as a workplace. I work there Monday to Friday. I don't do anything on the weekends. Like, it is a workplace for sure. When I started Instagram in the earlier teens, it was very different. Obviously, we already know that. But it wasn't as much like the way content style is so different than it is now, where it, you know, wasn't even yoga content, it wasn't, I mean, there didn't used to be video at all. When there was video, there wasn't like overlay text on the video. You know, so it wasn't as kind of like formal, oh, this is my work, and I'm showing up and teaching you how to do this yoga thing, and that's it, right? And some people still did treat it that way. Some people, and I'm talking specifically yoga because that was the niche I was in. Some people's yoga accounts were very educational focused, tutorial focused, three tips for a handstand, that kind of thing. Mine has never been that way, ever, since the beginning. I would say it was probably 80% yoga and about 20% lifestyle, personal, you know, where it's like, this is a cute dog on my travel. This is my smoothie bowl that was really pretty. This is my boyfriend at the time. You know, like I was still, it was everything. And even if I posted a yoga video or photo or whatever, I've always been a long caption girly. You know, I was definitely that bitch, the long-winded spiritual BS. And it was still more, it was like connected to yoga, but it would be similar to how like you imagine a yoga class where it's say there's a theme in a class, you're connecting that back to real life in some way, but through this funnel of yoga. So it's my workplace that this person is calling Instagram my workplace, like has always been that. It's always been not a hundred percent of me. Of course, like I have personal private parts of me, but I haven't just showed up and been like, I'm a yoga teacher, and you don't get to see any other part of my life. Yeah. People online have always seen multi-dimensions of my life and other relationships. So that's part of it. The other part of it is that it's like I picture it like let's say that this is a workspace, okay? Like a literal workspace. It's a cubicle, and people around you are in their little cubicles. And say that before you never really had any decorations, and all the stuff in your cubicle was just like work-related, like a stapler, a calculator, like whatever the fuck you guys use in cubicles. I don't know. Very functional. And then you end up in a serious relationship, and so you decide to put a few photos on your cubicle walls of that relationship. And then all of a sudden, people are like, What the hell? This is a workspace. And you're like, Yeah, but everyone else has photos of their, but they're just in straight relationships, so nobody cares. Exactly. It's like why and you see that happen in real life.
Speaker 1:And now you've been demoted, we're sorry.
Speaker:With teachers, like this happens in real life where a teacher puts a photo of them and their wife, you know, on their desk, and they're like, That's inappropriate. But like, why can a straight teacher do that? Exactly.
Speaker 1:So that's what I'm saying. I'm with you. It's bullshit.
Speaker:Yeah. Do you have anything else to add? I mean, no, I'm ranted.
Speaker 1:No, I like the rant. I mean, I just think like it just it for me, it's clear that that just shows. It's like what we want the people that we follow on the internet to be the person that we think that they are. We want them to be in this box, and then if they are outside of the box in any of the ways that you weren't anticipating and you don't like that, it's like they're now someone you can't relate to anymore or follow or whatever. And for me, I'm just like, it's just so it feels so intense the decision that people make when they're like online through their follows and their comments. And I get it, everyone has the right to kind of like support the people that they want to or not. Um, but for me, it's like I don't understand how you can go from like, I like this person or I like consuming their content, and now it's like, well, now I know that they're gay, or now I know that they're liberal or conservative, or I don't know, eats meat, or doesn't eat meat, and now therefore I cannot support them anymore in whatever way.
Speaker:It just seems extreme. I do understand, for instance, like this example of bringing my personal life into the workplace. If somebody is like, I followed you because I thought this was like a yoga account, and I don't care about the other stuff, and you are posting the other stuff more than you used to, and I I just don't care. Like, no of totally fine, you know. Again, I would get that if that had happened, also when I had a boyfriend and posted my straight relationship, and people were like, Meh, we're not here for the relationship stuff, we're here for the yoga only. Okay, but it's not just about it's not just about that, you know? No, and it's like it is true that people not only is the creator changing, but also the consumer is changing too, and their needs change, and that organic there's been so many people that I'm like, oh, I used to love following them and I kind of got bored with whatever their shtick was and I don't follow them anymore. It's like it truly is nothing personal. I just like I don't really like your content, and so I don't want to see it, and so I just don't follow. That will happen for sure. But yeah, it's a I think it's different than this reactivity that happens when you're triggered, which is more what it feels like in these coming out experiences, yeah, whatever you're coming out from. Okay, so this is a another really common response, but you should just focus on the people who are there because the people who left sucked anyways, or something along those lines. What do you think about that?
Speaker 1:I mean, I get I get the sentiment, and I do agree to an extent because it's like focus on the positive. Well, it's also just like your people will find you and they'll stay, and the people who aren't for you aren't gonna be there, you know, are gonna leave in some way. So I get that, I get that sentiment. But like you said, it's like I think it's it's just hard when you when it's like an event like this, the coming out event, whatever that event is, and you see how dramatic that is and you realize how many people that actually represents in the world. Exactly. That's the hard thing because it's like it's like when you come out in your real life, you're not on the internet, you might lose a couple friends, you might lose a couple family members. Yeah. And maybe so maybe it's like, you know, five people are impacted in your life. But then you like come out online and it's like 50,000 people, it just makes you remember, like, oh my god, this is like such a large opinion in the world. And it, I don't know, it just puts things in proportion in such a large scale of how real it is.
Speaker:That is true. It's like, is that reflected in in real life? The percentage of people you lose online and in per the number is smaller, but the percentage is probably similar. I would imagine. Yeah. That's true. And I think, yeah, it is, it's again, and even the last one I agree with to a degree where it's like, yes, there are repercussions for bringing your personal life into your workplace. Boundaries are a real thing.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker:And this one, same thing. I can understand, yes, focus on the people who are there. I guess in my case, and it's it's more because it when they see the short form content of me sharing about this, they're probably perceiving it as me kind of like complaining or maybe seeking pity or something like that. When it's more like, no, I'm trying to show like the bigger issue here, like you're saying, where it's like, no, this isn't, yes, fuck those people. I don't care. It's not like I'm like, oh my God, I need those 50k back. You know, it's not about that. It's more of just like, wow, this is again in a time where people are saying nobody cares if you're gay, and then you're seeing this response at the same time. You're like, really? Nobody cares? Those two things don't match up. So it's just kind of pointing out the inconsistency and pointing out that greater issue of like, okay, there's, you know.
Speaker 1:This is still a real, a real issue.
Speaker:This is still a real issue, exactly. Okay, so this is the last one. Why do you care about the numbers so much?
Speaker 1:In the end, like, I don't think you actually do. It's the same point we were just saying. It's like it is a reminder, though, that so many people believe still in certain ways, have certain have certain belief systems.
Speaker:I think, well, yes, it's that. And there is also, like we just talked about with that Kenny Janae example, there is the consumer or the user, the follower, they do have power in that way. And yes, like a max exodus can impact your income if you are getting paid to use Instagram in whatever way that is, which I was at the time. And one of the contracts that I was in, for instance, we literally got paid based on how many followers we had. And you would get paid more the more followers that you had. So it like directly impacted my income. And also, you know, where I would see it in these other more like trickle-down ways where it's like seeing I had a few people, for instance, I host retreats, yoga retreats, people who had already booked retreats with me.
unknown:Okay.
Speaker:And retreats are expensive. Okay, this is at least almost $2,000. I don't know what room they had, you know, so it could have been even more. That's a big investment. People don't spend that kind of money to to practice with you if they don't really like you as a teacher. Exactly. You know, so it's like that's how much you are you have gained that much from me already as a teacher from my classes. You trust me that much that you're gonna spend $2,000 to leave your country of origin, travel across the world with me just to learn from me. Like that's how much you like me, okay? That's a lot. I'm not saying I was your favorite teacher, but maybe I was. Like it was like you're up there and you cancel your retreat with me because I'm gay now. Because you no longer feel comfortable. Back to the predator conversation where it's like, first of all, I'm in a relationship. So it's not like I'm not all of a sudden gonna come on to you because these were women that canceled. So it's like I can I'm a woman, I know what it feels like to be uncomfortable around people that I might perceive as predators, but it's like I'm still the same person. And just because I like women now doesn't mean I like you because you're a woman necessarily, and even if I did, I have a girlfriend. You have a wife, you were a girlfriend at the time. You were just a girlfriend. That's so weird. Yeah, you know, so it's like, and that's that's the numbers represent that where it's like it's not, and if if some you know, and because people have said something similar, like, why do you just care about money? And it's like, well, do you care about your job? Like, would you care if you made less at your job because you came out as gay? I think anyone would care.
Speaker 1:20% pay cut because now you're gay. Right.
Speaker:Like, I think anyone would care about that. I think people would freak out, right? Right. And yeah, so it's just, and this doesn't happen to everybody. There's some people who gain followings when they come out. I know. Because people are like, yay, they're gay now, you know, and they like get people that are really celebrated. And it's not that I I don't want to say that I wasn't in other ways, but I yeah, I just I didn't have that experience. And this is another thing that I think made it feel this extra layer of icky to me. And it was one of the first things that started putting me off the yoga world is the premise of yoga, very similar to religion, right? Where it's like love and light, acceptance, non-judgment, all of the things very similar to religion. I'm doing the yoga hand, yeah. Because that's what it is. It's like, oh, all are welcome here unless you're blame and gay. Yeah, you know, and it was just like seeing that hypocrisy in a space that preaches something so different, and yoga people trying to explain their homophobia to me through this the fucking spiritual language makes me want to just like rip their tongue.
Speaker 1:The spiritual babble.
Speaker:Where they're like, I if only your chakras were more aligned, then maybe you would be your feminine would be imbalance, and if it wasn't imbalance and you wouldn't be attracted to the other feminine, like they're talking like that. And I'm like, I'm just gay. Yeah, and I'm aligned. My chakras are good. You know what I mean? But we don't need it's not about whatever you're trying to say. And it just, it was, yeah, like that part was very off putting to me, where it was like this community that is so it's preaching this one thing, but then there's this. Total other side to it that before I never experienced because I had the privilege.
Speaker 1:You got the privilege.
Speaker:Yeah, I I didn't have to think about this stuff.
Speaker 1:I know. I I watched you go through it and it was it was really interesting and sad to watch. Essentially, the internet psychoanalyze you through this spiritual yoga lens. And then like I don't know, it just it's like psychobabble.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like they're just word salading all over you trying to convince you that who you are is wrong. Right, which feels through their lens.
Speaker:By the way, I was raised with organized religion. And I know how that feels and how it sounds. And even though I've always felt like a spiritual person and always believed in God, I never really identified with the organized religion part of it because of those all of a sudden like quick changes. And it's like, these are the rules, unless you're this and this and this. And there's always that like unless. And it just felt, I just, you know, I just never really liked it that much. And yoga was a huge part of my spiritual practice at that time. And this felt like the same thing where it's like, you know, so many religions, it's talking about love or God being love and accepting, and Jesus is sitting with prostitutes and lepers and the rejects of society. You're trying to tell me he wouldn't be at a pride march. Like, I'm sorry, I don't buy it. I just don't buy it. Or non-judgment, and you know, it's it's the same thing where it's like those principles are the same, but then there's that judgment that still happens, but then it's masked as like, I'm not judging you, I'm just trying to like prevent you from going to hell and looking out for you. Exactly. I'm not judging you. I'm just I want your chakras to be cleared. It's yeah, you're judging me.
Speaker 1:If your chakras were cleared, then you would be able to be with a man.
Speaker:Right. I would be healthy and balanced, and I would crave masculinity and not femininity.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker:So I think there was that layer of it too that felt just like extra, you know, and I again I use the vegan example. I know that's a big complaint that people have too, where it's like you care about compassion and animals so much, but you cannot extend that same compassion to humans. And by the way, I like dogs more than people. I am a huge animal person, so I get it. I I have more compassion for animals too. Yes. But it's just like the foundation of your movement, of the thing that you're like, this is what I believe in. And then you turn and I mean, what else does that remind you of?
Speaker 1:Anything? I I don't know. Where are you going with this? I want to keep up, but I don't know where you're going.
Speaker:What else does it remind you of when there is this ethos of a movement?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker:And it seems so clear and so strong, and it's all about like inclusivity and acceptance, but then there's always that asterisk where it's like, unless you're this.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker:What's like what other what other groups do we see that in?
Speaker 1:I mean, every group, essentially. I see that in. But religion for sure, mostly.
Speaker:Okay, I see it in the LGBTQ group.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tell me more.
Speaker:We've talked about this before, you know, and and people talk about this all the time. This is not even necessarily a hot take, but where it's like our literal slogan is love is love, or like love wins, and it's all about like everyone is welcome here. But at the same time, would a conservative gay person be welcome? No, probably not. You know, and I that's a sp I would say specifically with conservative people, that's where I see the most kind of like separation.
Speaker 1:Definitely.
Speaker:Um and I see that a lot too, like liberalism, the backbone of liberalism is social justice, you know, and equality and inclusivity and diversity. But again, you want that on the superficial level as far as like the way somebody looks, their race, their gender, the way they're presenting in society, but you don't really want diversity of thought at all. At all.
unknown:No.
Speaker:And that to me is really, really frustrating when like that's what I have the biggest gripe with yoga, with religion, with liberalism, with LGBTQ, because it's like you're pretending to be one thing, but you're really something else.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker:Whereas somebody who is You're really an oppressor.
Speaker 1:That's how I feel.
Speaker:But it's like, for instance, and I've said this before, there's many things I don't agree with about conservatism. Yeah. But one thing that I appreciate is that somebody, they don't pretend to be something they're not. They're like, yeah, fuck you. If they think something, you know, they don't pretend to be nice to someone if they don't like them. I don't, that's not a nice way to be necessarily, but it's like I respect that I don't have to guess with you. I know what you think, what you believe. I don't have to anticipate, like, are you gonna do this weird shifty thing? Are you pretending to be one way, but you're really another? It's very clear. And I personally appreciate that, like direct, clear. I don't have to guess with you. And in some ways, this is so weird. In some ways, it makes me feel safer because I'm like, I know I can now prepare myself of how to be around you versus like I agree with that. Thinking someone is one way and then they're really another way. And then I when I feel the rug ripped out from underneath me, it's so disorienting. It's really hard for me.
Speaker 1:I hate that feeling, you know? Yes, I'm yes, I'm with you on this rant.
Speaker:Okay, you caught up.
Speaker 1:I'm just like, I don't know. I just feel like you're actually the oppressor in that situation. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker:I don't know about oppressor, it's just very hypocritical. Exactly.
Speaker 1:It's so hypocritical, and then you're actually the oppressor because it's just like if you have if you actually have diversity of thought, it's like that's not allowed. And so it is very hypocritical.
Speaker:Yeah, so that this is kind of what I want to get to is the greater issue from this whole conversation is not about me losing 50,000 followers. It's not like me being like, oh my god, wow, poor me. It's not about that. It's not, it's not shocker. Have you heard of the bean soup theory? Probably not, because you're not a TikToker.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker:Nor am I. Just to be clear, I never want to identify as a TikToker for the love of God. But okay, so there's this thing that came up on TikTok where it was like a girl had made she shared this recipe and it was called like three bean soup, or I'm probably gonna butcher this, whatever. You'll you'll get the gist. This was like the best bean soup recipe ever. Okay. And it went kind of viral, popped off. And a bunch of people in the comments were like, but I don't like beans, okay?
Speaker 1:Oh, this is this is the internet to a fucking table.
Speaker:And they're like, wow, she made a soup with beans and I don't like beans. And it's like, but yeah, it's it's called beans. Like, I'm not trying, again, I'm being very clear with you. I'm not misleading you. I didn't say like, hey, it's minestroti soup, and then only use beans and threw you off. Like, it's called a bean soup recipe. If you don't like beans, keep scrolling. Keep scrolling. You don't have to tell me you don't like beans.
Speaker 1:This is everything. So this is the internet in a nutshell, and I can't handle it anymore.
Speaker:Yes. So that is, in my opinion, it's like that's the greater issue. Is it it's like instead of you can silently unfollow, sure. And and arguably a lot of people did that. I did not get 50,000 comments every single time someone unfollowed. Great. You silently unfollowed, you don't like it, cool. You don't have to explain yourself. Certainly don't have to announce your unfollowing.
Speaker 1:That's my favorite, though, is when people do that in the comments. Unfollowed. I can't believe you would post something like this. Right. I am unfollowing because you posted a picture of you and your wife.
Speaker:Right. And it just to me, it's like this expectation that what what I see as a whole on both sides of the political spectrum, and I'm making it about politics because unfortunately, everything is. And these different groups that we're talking about all kind of fit into political stereotypes, or like, oh, people with this personality tend to be over here, and people with this tend to be over there. Cancel culture is more associated with being liberal. You know, that's where it started. So I, you know, but it's not just it happens on both sides, is what I'm saying. And overall, like as our society, it's like we have this discomfort with being able to see something that we don't like and just like existing around it or moving on.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker:Scroll past the beans. You don't like it, look for the carrots. Like, I don't know what to tell you. You know what I mean? And it's the reason that it kind of scares me a little bit is that it's just like we're so I do understand boundaries as far as like if you don't like something, unfollow it. If if you need to block someone, like the all of that is fine.
Speaker 1:It's the inability to coexist, it's the inability.
Speaker:And and not just the inability, but it's this like lack of curiosity as well. Instead of being like, Whoa, why am I so triggered by these beans right now? There's like no pause to look inward and be like, why has this upset me? And just question that first.
Speaker 1:I can't believe that they wouldn't post the exact recipe that I would have wanted to see. Didn't they know I was craving the audacity that they posted a bean soup when I don't even like beans? Like, what the fuck is wrong with them? That's how people are. It's crazy. Self-awareness is lacking.
Speaker:So, yeah, I don't know. Like, it's it's something that it just does, it scares me a little bit. Like, not just this is the internet, and I understand in some ways the internet isn't real. It is this like make-believe world, but it is so prominent now that it does bleed into our real life culture. We see this literally swings elections and stuff, like it's very, very real. Yes, and it's you know, so and it does it changes people's personalities. I've noticed this just in the way of like my retreat guests who come post-COVID versus pre-COVID. And I think that is because of the internet personally, because they only know me via the internet. I think parasocial parasocial relationships have only gotten more intense, and people have also been online longer. I've been online for 10 years now versus five.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker:So people know me in this even more, you know. So yeah, everything is like it does impact real life as well, and that's why I think it's important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I I agree with you. I do think it's scary because it's just like we're having these intense feelings over being soup people like and the rage is real. And the like I it's the for me, it's like the inability to coexist. It's like I have to see the things that I want, that I like, and if any and if I it's something that I don't expect or you've changed to be slightly different, we can't handle that anymore as people. And for me, that's like deeply upsetting.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because the whole concept of being a human is you're going to change. You're gonna live many lives.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It's like even just us, like we've changed so much since we've been together, you know, and it's like we would have met each other at 25, we never would have ended up together. It's just like so much ha can happen in five years or one year, right? And and we don't allow people to change and be themselves. We have to, it's like we have this thing inside us that's like, you're different than what I expected you to be. So now I have to tell you how horrible you are and like put you back in your box.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker 1:So that I can handle my life.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I can continue to move through my life. Otherwise, like I'm going to, I don't know, collapse. It's wild.
Speaker:And I I want to be clear, I do think it is important to curate your online, your your feed to see things that I'm not saying like, oh, trigger yourself all the time online and see what happens. Oh, of course not. If you go on my homepage, it's just puppies, it's all dog content. I'm like, I want to laugh. My explore feed, it's like bravo, pop culture, just trash. Because I don't want to see stuff that's gonna stress me. That's what I like. If something shows up on there, for instance, like sometimes I'll get because I'm in wellness and movement, sometimes it'll serve me other kind of fitness content that's more like weight loss related. And that is triggering for me. I don't like to see that. It doesn't mean I think that person is bad, but I will tap the like not interested because I don't want to see that. And that's fine. So I'm not saying you need to go out of your way to make yourself uncomfortable, right? I'm not saying to make your online place feel like a torture chamber for you. Curate it how you want, but it's also just like when you do get triggered, why can you not pause and be like, why does that upset me? In my case of somebody, you really liked me as a teacher, you love, you know, you have learned a lot from me. But now because I'm dating a woman, you can no longer learn from me. That seems I don't understand that. I would like to know more, but usually I don't have an opportunity to know more because they block me or whatever they do, you know. So it's just like that it's that like separating the art from the artist, you know, that saying where people so I don't know, like, but what is I guess it's just like what is that line between protecting yourself, your own mental health, or being like, well, yeah, I want to be around people who share values with me, but then also not living in an echo chamber. Like, what is that line? I think it's really hard to define.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I don't know what the line is. Genuinely. I mean, that's like literally the online sphere is like you I can choose what you want to follow, and that creates this bubble around you.
Speaker:Yeah, I will say this is something I've just shared once before in a blog post, but I'm just gonna share it again now and we'll say how this goes. This is about canceling. So if you guys want to cancel me after this, by all means. But in 2020, so this is obviously a very politically charged time. I also had not lived in the States for a very long time. This was quite the time to come back, and things were extremely polarized. I mean, arguably they started becoming polarized the 2016 elections, you know, every but in 2020 I would say it was much worse with Black Lives Matter, with COVID, with all this stuff happening, people being on their phones, everything is really, really heightened. And I definitely was in an echo chamber without realizing it. You know, like I just kind of by nature, I was like, well, yeah, I guess like most people I follow are pretty liberal. I also started following a lot more queer accounts after coming out, and and so I'm seeing a lot of, and both, again, both sides do this with the fear-mongering of like, oh, this person said this and that, and you know, the fear-mongering headlines of it all on both sides are atrocious. But I was seeing a lot of it from more a liberal standpoint, where it was, you know, talking about the way that different, you know, conservatives are seeing different kinds of queer people, whether it's gay people, trans people, whatever. And it was, it felt really scary to me to where it was like, oh my God, now I live in this country. I feel like I'm under attack. Like, am I gonna get like stuff stoned when I go outside? You know, it was like it felt really scary to me, but it was also confusing because it wasn't matching my experience in person. Like I have, I didn't have those experiences. Of course, we've experienced homophobia. It's usually almost more like funny of like that lady the other day. Remember when she's like, Oh, you're gay, you don't look gay, like, you know, or and then and then you walked up and she goes, Oh, you must be the dude. Yeah, so like, yeah, is that homophobic? Sure. Just trying to rent a car, like it was harmless in the sense that this wasn't, I wasn't scared of this person.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker:And I've had many comments like that, but for the most part, it was like I didn't feel scared in real life. But what I was seeing online was painting this different picture, and and this is at a time we're moving to Florida, which is pretty conservative, you know. And I was just like, are we gonna be okay there? Like, are we gonna die? You know, like what's gonna happen? I know. And we were nervous. Uh yeah, and and so what it prompted me to do because I was just like, I just don't understand how people can think some of these things, the things that I'm seeing. Like, how do people get there? Because my experience of people in real life is that for the most part, people are good. Yes, there's some bad apples in every group, but I'm like, for the most part, people are good. So, how do they get there to like hating someone so intensely? Because that's what I'm being told, and that's not what I'm experiencing. It was very confusing. And so I wanted to understand that why like how does somebody get there to being anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-whatever, and started consuming other content that was and still can be, by the way, very triggering for me because I can listen to it and be I can't listen to conservative content about IVF. Yeah, I know it makes me want to break my phone. Like I said, you know, it's but I I like to know what both sides are saying because what it did for me, it wasn't about, do I want to be conservative? It wasn't about my beliefs. It was just about creating actually more empathy. Because what I realized is people on the other side that I didn't understand that I was starting to other to the point of almost dehumanizing them, of like, well, they're these hateful, scary, shadowy, like dementor figures, you know, these like sub-human figures. And what it did for me was even if I never agreed with the points that they made, I found empathy in the sense that I'm like, oh, that's just a mom that is also trying to protect her kid. You know, that's also just a so-and-so who's j looking out for most people, it's their family. Yeah. And it's like, I don't agree with the way you're looking out for your family. That's not how I would choose to do it. But I see that you are actually the same as me. I just want to look out for my family by like this way. Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And usually it's like, I've first of all, I've done the same thing, and I felt have the same like reaction as you is. It's like generally it's just like people trying to protect them their family in some way. That's why they have a certain belief. And it usually doesn't, that's usually not accompanied with hate.
Speaker:Right. It's usually coming from a place of fear, sure.
Speaker 1:Sure. Where but not hate.
Speaker:Yeah, it's like I would say a very small percentage of people where there is that hatred, that violence, that like they see also us as subhuman because we're gay or, you know, and that's what I would say to to that other group of people who I'm sure is not listening to this podcast, by the way. But but on a side note, I always think it's funny when people are commenting. Like, one of the things I think when they comment homophobic stuff, I'm like, why are you on gay TikTok anyways? Like, why are you getting served lesbian wedding content, Phil? I'm sorry, that's weird. You know, what does that say about? You. But you know, to people who are on the other side, it's the same thing. It's like if you see gay people or whatever, trans person, whatever kind of person as less than human in some way, less than you in some way, it's like, how can you humanize them? How can you create empathy of like, hey, there not only is there nothing wrong with them because they're gay, but also they're just like maybe they're not trying to make me gay. Like maybe they're not attacking me with their gayness and turning me gay. They're just existing in a marriage the same way that I'm existing in my marriage. And it's different for me, and that difference is scary. Yeah. And when I'm scared, I'm triggered. Exactly. You know?
unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker:I mean, I'm on one and you're you really are on one.
Speaker 1:I'm I'm with you on that. I don't have a lot more to add to it. It's just, I think, I think it like you said, like how to how to get out of your bubble or your echo chamber, because we all are in one. Like I've said this to you as well. I feel like I've lived in many different bubbles over the years, and you don't always realize it when you're in the bubble. But it's like it really is good to open yourself up to different points of view, different content, and the same way and hear those differing opinions and hear, like do empathize with other people who have differing beliefs from you.
Speaker:And that's what I was saying, even with the yoga world. It was like I was in that bubble, that echo chamber in this way of like, oh, this is everything is happy and good. It's yoga here. And that was more because of privilege. I didn't, I would never I didn't even know that some of the language, probably even I said, was, oh, that's actually super, you know, like bypass. Bypass, yes, these things because it didn't affect me. And some of that, yeah, that can happen too. But it's just that like pause and trying to humanize people, and also most importantly, trying to understand yourself enough to know why is something upsetting to me. And then I think every person's line or boundary with how they want to push themselves. Where, where do I want to make myself feel uncomfortable? Where do I not? But just like really trying to be cognizant of that instead of like, nope, sorry, I can only have people around me who think exactly the same as me. Is that gonna help you grow?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker:Right? Like, it's like I want to be challenged. Oh, sure. Change my mind.
Speaker 1:It's even better when you can have the conversations with friends in person.
Speaker:It's well, that too. And and we said this in the Turf Talk episode where we're like, yeah, like we we like your feedback because it's like I also I like getting points that I'm like, oh, I didn't think about it that way. That does change my mind a little bit. Like, I I want you to push me, you can do that. And we we illustrated that in that episode of like, see how this comment was productive versus this one that was, you know, where it's like you can be stern and direct and opinionated with someone without trolling them.
Speaker 1:For sure.
Speaker:So yeah, I don't know. I guess that greater question that everybody can consider is what is the line between surrounding self yourself with people who have shared values with you that that feels important to you and also challenging yourself to have diversity in opinions, beliefs, like diversity beyond the color of someone's skin or beyond their gender, you know, or or their sexual orientation, or anything that's kind of like outward appearance, but diversity in thought and belief, I think is is just more important than ever right now. It is it's scary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, and I realize it is a challenging thing to actually have that. Right. Because we do crave familiarity and sameness.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker:So who's your problem? I know you said you had one.
Speaker 1:Okay, my problem is have you been keeping up with this whole like Nicki Minaj thing?
Speaker:Oh, okay. Oh, I thought you were gonna say something else, but that is a perfect example of the follower of laws.
Speaker 1:Okay, so Nicki Minaj goes to this like turning point event thing. Yeah, Charlie Kirk's event thing. And I like saw some clips on it. She didn't really say anything controversial besides the fact that she like believes in God and you know, I think it just I don't know everything.
Speaker:It basically just like has come out and said that she's conservative about conservative, obviously, because there.
Speaker 1:She didn't really like say anything crazy. Okay. And she's lost, she lost 10 million followers, like I think in 24 hours, and she deleted her Instagram because it just gotten so crazy. And it's kind of like I so I guess that's just like not allowed? Like what?
Speaker:Well, I guess like the argument is, and the same thing that someone could say to me is like if you're allowed to be gay, I'm allowed to unfollow you. And that's true. You can everything is allowed, but I'm also allowed to have a reaction to your action, you know? And that's where it is this slippery slope, you know. But it's like that is what makes people feel like they need to stay closeted because they're afraid of the reaction.
Speaker 1:But I think it's like people feel like they're doing something good by doing the unfollow in that triggering event.
Speaker:Like that, I think that's in that example, yes.
Speaker 1:And I don't understand, and I don't think I'll ever understand that.
Speaker:I mean, personally, I don't follow any celebrities, so I don't understand why people follow celebrities at all.
Speaker 1:Personally, and it would be the same thing for me if Nicki Minaj came out and was like, I believe in God and now I'm a Democrat. I would be like, cool, man. I don't really care. First of all, I don't even know you. Like, I don't you're not somebody I like care about, Nicki Minaj. That's what I mean. It's like I don't And but like it it's so upsetting for people to have someone come out and be different, a different political party than they want them to be.
Speaker:We talked about this in the Caitlin Jenner episode where I said I was like, I don't think it should be a controversy if someone is conservative. I think it's different if they're saying explicit things, right? Or if they've done, if their actions are doing something that you're like, whoa, that was offensive, weird, whatever, you know, but versus just like, yeah, I'm conservative. Like let's say, let's say you didn't know this person's politics. Yeah. But you met them, you really jived with them, and you're like, yeah, they're awesome. A year later, for some reason you see their ballot, you know, like you find out in this weird way, but you would never know because in person, you like whatever their beliefs are, don't seem to impact their personality, the way they treat you, the way you've seen them treat others. Like you've never so, and there would be people that would stop being friends with that person just because of what they found out instead of letting them show, like let people show you who they are. Exactly.
Speaker 1:Right. So who's the problem? Is it Nikki? Or is it the internet?
Speaker:I will say I don't, I didn't hear her speech, so I don't know. I I don't know if she did say something off the wall. I so I don't know, but otherwise I would like to.
Speaker 1:Well, I think she said she likes Trump as well.
Speaker:Right. Which personally I don't. You know, I'm like, and I've always said that I'm like, even if even if there are things in conservatism that I agree with, I personally, yes, back to the allegations or not, we don't know I personally can't in good faith like vote for a fucking diddler, which is how I see Trump.
Speaker 1:Fair enough.
Speaker:But what politician isn't at this point, other than like we said, I don't think Obama, but other than that, wouldn't be surprised if probably everyone else is. So, anyways, I get it. If someone says they like Trump, that is enough to potentially break someone's career for sure. And that's I don't think that that should be the case.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker:Because I think that's just it's setting the example of you think differently than me, you're cut, blocked, now I don't ever have to hear anything about that, and I could stay in my bubble where no one else has to talk about that.
Speaker 1:The reason why it's so upsetting to me, like it I don't care at all about Nicki Minaj, but the reason why it's so upsetting to me that to see people be like, Yeah, do that, like we're taking this stand, is that what I don't think people realize is that like that could be you next for any belief that you have. And we're all out here supporting people, be like, Yeah, let's take them down, let's you know, ruin their lives, like they should never be able to work against like who's to say you're not that next person tomorrow, right? For any belief that you have. I'm just like, no, we should absolutely not be supporting this.
Speaker:Yeah, we just all need more empathy, humanization, grace, forgiveness, these things where it's like people will also make mistakes. We have to there has to be space for that. Also, like they may not be making a mistake. That too. I'm not sure. They may just have a different belief for you. Right. I'm not saying her belief is a mistake, but I'm saying yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's for me, that's like the that when you were saying like this is like the scary part of it out for me. That's the scary part of this whole conversation, is that like who's next? It's like what we're just gonna treat people that way. I don't understand.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's the willingness to to um ruin someone's life for what you believe is the greater good, like feels very Machiavellian to me. Right. Like the ends justify the means to you in the you know, yeah. And for me, I will never relate to that.
Speaker:Yeah, I think it's also good is very subjective. Who gets unless we're talking about legalities where it's like if someone did something illegal, okay, then that's wrong. Like that is we've decided that's wrong. But if it's good is very subjective, and that I think people forget that a lot of the time, where it's like that that wasn't good or they did this bad, and it's like, says who? Says you, but that's someone what about their beliefs? What about you know, there's so many options. Okay. So my who's the problem? Do you think it is the culture of the internet or the user? You know, it's like the culture of the internet that is the I think it's the user. I agree. I think personal responsibility is always the way. It's always the way. If everyone took responsibility, the culture would change.
Speaker 1:Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like the culture is what it is, but it's like I'm never gonna do that to somebody because I don't want that done to me.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker 1:Like, I just don't I firmly believe that. And I just think, like, yeah, I don't know. People are so quick to jump in and take people down, tear people down, do whatever. And I just don't understand how that's possible. So I think it's the user.
Speaker:Yeah. So everybody challenge yourself this week, online in some way. Couldn't be a small baby step. Maybe it was listening to this episode was triggering as hell to you. I don't know. But let us know. I would love to hear feedback on this.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker:Maybe it's good rants, honey. We'll see you next week. See you next week. Thank you so much for listening to the show. We're so happy to have you here. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you're listening to podcasts. We love getting commentary from you on Spotify and on YouTube. And as always, if you love this episode or any of our episodes, make sure to share it with a friend or somebody who will appreciate the conversation.
Speaker 1:And make sure to follow us on all their socials at Wives Not Sisters Pod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Thanks, guys. See you next week.