Wives Not Sisters
A playful, unfiltered podcast where a married wlw couple dives into the chaos of modern relationships, pop culture, queer lore, and all the little things most people wouldn’t admit out loud.
Wives Not Sisters is a queer-led podcast where marriage meets humor, honesty, and a little too much sharing but in the best way. We’re here to normalize nuance in relationships -- from romantic, platonic, familial, and everything in between- and to create a space where deep conversations and dumb jokes can coexist. Through real talk, playful debates, and just enough oversharing, we’re building a community that’s reflective, ridiculous, and radically relatable.
Wives Not Sisters
What's With All The WLW Breakups Lately?
Why does it feel like every WLW couple is breaking up right now?
In this episode, Alix and Kayla unpack the recent wave of WLW breakups—from emotional burnout and attachment styles to visibility pressure, queer dating dynamics, and why sapphic relationships can feel so intense. They discuss common breakup patterns, listener perspectives, and how queer relationships navigate communication, community overlap, and healing after a split.
00:00 – Intro & why WLW breakups feel different
03:10 – Emotional enmeshment in queer relationships
07:40 – Why “let’s stay friends” often backfires
12:50 – Identity loss after a WLW breakup
18:30 – Attachment styles & emotional mirroring
24:40 – Boundaries, no-contact & healing
30:20 – Grief, longing & nervous system repair
35:10 – What actually helps you move on
40:00 – Closing reflections
#WLW #QueerPodcast #LesbianBreakups #Sapphic #QueerRelationships #WLWDating #QueerCulture #LesbianPodcast
Connect with us on social media: IG: @wivesnotsisterspod | TikTok: @wivesnotsisterspod | Youtube: @wivesnotsisterspod
Follow our hosts on Instagram: @kaylalanielsen @alix_tucker
You can also watch our episodes on Youtube at youtube.com/@wivesnotsisterspod!
Hey guys, it's Alix and Kayla. And we're married, not related, definitely codependent.
Speaker 2:But in a cute way. And we're back. We've also, if you're watching on YouTube, you'll see we have a new dog here with us. She's not actually new. We've had her for four years, but you will have never seen well, she made a brief appearance. She did.
Speaker 1:Our teeny tiny tortilla.
Speaker 2:Her name is Tortilla, but we also called her Vladimir because she is the little dictator of our household. Yes. So you'll see her on YouTube. And if you want to see a very cute dog, then go watch us on YouTube. Yeah. Check us out. Little shameless dog. Please subscribe. YouTube is rough. Yeah, I know. You know, it's like the slowest growing. Yeah, we're building. We are. And we love. Remember that one who said But if you want to support us, subscribe.
Speaker 1:It's like an easy way to do it.
Speaker 2:It's a super easy way to do it. But remember that one person who had DM'd that one time and she's like, I think she was like subscriber 157 or whatever. I don't remember which number. And she's like, remember me when you pull up. I'm number 157 or whatever it was. Made me so happy. So find us on YouTube, find us on socials, comment, do the polls. The polls are so interesting and so fun.
Speaker 1:We get a lot of participation.
Speaker 2:It's also just interesting to see like where people really lie, you know, because sometimes things can seem like one way, but then really be another way. So yeah, just come hang out with us. That's what we're saying. Come hang and bring more people to come hang with us too. Send it to a friend. Today, honey, I am leading.
Speaker 1:Yay.
Speaker 2:Because last week we forgot a game. My period brain forgot to bring a game. You were like, Do we need the iPad for the game? You know, like just for the episode. I was like, no, I don't think so. And then we started recording. I was like, oops, I don't have a game. So there's that. And I don't have, I can't think of one on the spot. So, anyways, I have one today that is very relevant to the topic at hand. Perfect. So we're talking about WLW breakups. Gosh. Big sigh. Makes me sad. Just pour one out, right? It was a big year, 2025, a lot of breakups. And so the game is gonna be breakup or stay. And I'm just gonna give you a quick scenario and you decide would you break up with someone over this? Okay. Your partner constantly forgets your anniversary and says it's no big deal. Not just facial expressions.
Speaker 1:I think I might break up.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think it's the says it's no big deal that's worse than the forgetting, right? Yeah, if you forget like once or twice, whatever, but like if you just if they're saying this is important, okay. They insist on checking your phone whenever they feel like it.
Speaker 1:Break up. Like you we use each other's phones all the time. So like our phones are very open. But if you're like, I'm just gonna go through your phone whenever I want, I'd be like, I mean, I guess you can, but like, why don't you trust me?
Speaker 2:You know, I've heard Glennon and Abby talk about this. Have you? This is like way back in the day when I still listened to her podcast sometimes, but she was saying, or maybe they said it on the caller daddy, and I don't know. I heard them say it at some point that Glennon used to always check Abby's phone because it was like her old pattern, you know, like she came from a marriage where she was cheated on.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so it was like it had nothing to do with Abby or that she didn't trust Abby. It was just like her baggage that she was bringing in. And Abby's like, if that's what you need to do to feel safe, like go for it. She did not give a shit, you know? So I thought that was kind of interesting.
Speaker 1:But But that would be my mentality too. Like, if that's what you really feel like you need to do, I guess so.
Speaker 2:But like it should end at a certain point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can you like think about why you feel like you need to do this? Right because you're not gonna find anything.
Speaker 2:Right. And I think even in their case, I don't know if it's still, I don't think 10 years later it's still happening. I think it's like if that's at the initial you need this to then yeah. Okay, so they tell you that they don't like how you dress, but they don't offer any support in how to express yourself.
Speaker 1:What?
Speaker 2:It was just so silent. They tell you they don't like how you dress, but don't offer any support in how you express yourself.
Speaker 1:I don't think I'd I'd just be like, sucks to suck. I like my fit today.
Speaker 2:I think it's kind of mean to tell someone you don't like how they dress. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think we obviously tease each other. Like you told me I looked like a gremlin the other day because I because I was wearing like these Adidas shorts and this like really old stretched out tank top. And I'm like, yeah, I most of the time look homeless.
Speaker 1:Like that's you did look like a gremlin.
Speaker 2:And sometimes like you were wearing your freaking tennis shoes at the airport, and I was like, that's a lot, you know? Like you look like a dad right now with jeans, by the way. This wasn't with sweats, but jeans and tennis shoes.
Speaker 1:That's because you took my sambas, so they were the only shoes I had.
Speaker 2:So I'm saying we tease each other, but I think that's different than being like, ew, you're wearing that. Stop playing with my ew, your toes are on my jeans, honey. But you know, I don't, I wouldn't because that it just feels like it feels mean spirited. Yeah, it feels like a put down. It's not about the clothes, it's like you're judging me and that. But so breakup?
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:You find out they've been texting an ex. Oh, this sounds familiar, but they say it's just for closure, honey.
Speaker 1:It's not an it's not an immediate breakup, no.
Speaker 2:Yes, because you did that to me. Don't shrug your shoulders at me. You didn't say it was for closure, but what you said was the most lesbian thing ever, which I'm sure we'll get into in this episode, which is like, but we promised each other that we would always be friends. And I was like, okay, well, you're not gonna be. So I'm not gonna go. And what do you think?
Speaker 1:Break up or stay.
Speaker 2:Um I think it depends. Because it says you find out they've been texting their ex. How it's again, it needs to have an end date. It can't just be infinite behavior. I think that's the thing.
Speaker 1:Also, are they hiding it? Like, I never hid it, I told you.
Speaker 2:That yes. Well, I'm assuming they are hiding it if you say you find out, but maybe not. But it's like, did you find the texts that were just a you know, a few a series of let's say, you know, four or five texts and it was a clearly a closure conversation, then no. I wouldn't have liked that it was hidden from me. But if it's an ongoing thing, then yeah, that's definitely a red flag. Whereas, like for you, it wasn't that I said, Oh, I'm jealous of this person. I'm scared you're gonna leave me for this person. It was like this person doesn't treat you nicely as a friend. They're not a good friend to you, and they don't have good intentions for you or for us as a couple. That's why I didn't want you to be friends with her. Even if you had never dated, I wouldn't have liked it. Because it was like she's not supportive of you, really. She has these like ulterior motives. You know what I mean? Right. Okay, this is the last one. They cancel plans every time because they need me time, but never offer a rain check. That sounds like casual dating.
Speaker 1:It doesn't sound like you're prioritized, so no, I wouldn't be with somebody who's not prioritizing me.
Speaker 2:Okay, this also kind of reminds me of uh the show that we're watching right now, all her fault. It's it's good if anyone wants to watch it. Oh, that girl's husband's the worst. That's what it reminds me of when he's like, you know, I just need more me time. I so they're a married couple, they have a young child who's five or six, and the husband is very much like, I need this me time. And so he's putting everything on the mom all the time. And her quote unquote me time or alone time is to do the shopping, do the cleaning. It's not actual decompression time, you know, whereas his is.
Speaker 1:And that's the point where he starts lying to her about like things he's doing work, and he's just in his car for two hours, like scrolling TikTok.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that would be a deal breaker. Yeah. Which it is. Spoiler alert in the show for her too. But it's like, yeah, that would be a deal breaker. I I am an introvert, so I understand me time. And this was an adjustment for us when we first started dating too, because you also like alone time, but you initially you you took it more personally, you know, when I would like, I wasn't, I've I have never spent this amount of time with anyone before, like so intensely. And also it was COVID. We were locked down, there was limited things we could do, so many things, you know? And so I do understand that, but I think it's just like the way it's communicated is important, and then also making sure it's it's reciprocated, where it's like they can have alone time too, or you're like, hey, I really don't have the energy anymore, but let's reschedule. I think that's what it's saying by the rain check, like let's reschedule for Sunday because I don't have the capacity right now, but I do still want to like do that with you, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you want to be prioritized.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so breakups. Breakups. There's been some big ones this year. There's been some big ones. What do you think? What do you mean? What do I think?
Speaker 2:Okay. What does that mean? Let's talk about the made it out the made it out breakup first.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I'm sure we have a lot of crossover of listeners, of people who listen to the made it out podcast and who know who we're talking about. The host of the made it out podcast, her and her, they were not married, but they have been dating for I think like three or four years. Her and her girlfriend started the podcast together. Her girlfriend was the producer, and then the other Mal was the host, like very frontward-facing, and her girlfriend was more kind of like on the back end. But they built something incredible together, super successful. And very recently, like a few months, six months maybe before the breakup, they had also there was like this big spread, and some art, some become a media company.
Speaker 1:They did, yeah.
Speaker 2:They became a media company, and they like they were expanding, you know, they're like a very successful podcast. And um it was really weird. Remember?
Speaker 1:That was really weird, yes.
Speaker 2:This was like two months before they broke up. I I don't even know if I personally, I can't remember. I if I follow them or one or the podcaster, I think our podcast page does, but I I don't remember. I but I'm not I've listened to some episodes of the podcast before. I'm not like a diehard follow. I haven't listened to every, you know, so more of a casual observer, let's say. I'm not like a fan. I feel very neutral. And even still, so I'm not like tracking your every move, you know, like I'm not super invested. I don't know the ins and outs of either of their stories, like, you know. And about two months before they broke up, I said to you, we were on our evening walk as we go on, and I was like, I think the made it out girls are gonna break up. And you're like, why? Because you don't know anything. I don't know if you've ever listened to that podcast. You are on a very different side of the internet. So you're just like, what's going on? Like, who, you know, you always like when I just like come and give you the tea about what's going on, you know. This is why we have the lore episodes, because you like to know what's up. And I'm like, I there's literally no reason why I didn't, I just have this feeling like they're gonna break up or they have already broken up or something. And then a lot of people started guessing that after there was like this really big wedding that happened, a really big lesbian couple wedding, two big lesbian influencers, and all of the LA kind of lesbians were there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was very obvious at that point that Mal, the host, was not there. And she was really good friends with one of the brides. And her girlfriend was also really good friends, but I think Mal was even better. I don't know. So, and but her girlfriend was there solo, and that's when everyone was like, What is going on? You know? But I was like, I just want to say that I did have this feeling even a month before that, like way before the public then started speculating.
Speaker 1:For sure.
Speaker 2:And I don't know why. I don't know why. It was just one of those psychic moments.
Speaker 1:One of those weird things that happen where you just feel it. But yeah, I guess like, what do I think? I think it's first of all, it's really sad, you know? It's like, like you said, these are two people who built something really impactful for the queer community, right? A really important podcast. People, you know, really like like the made it out podcast. And you know, I mean, just regardless of the queer. Yeah, super successful business, and it's really sad that you know, that their relationship ended.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the reason that I think it's interesting is it's this idea of like that mix of work and relationship, you know, and what I had said when we were first talking about it. I was like, yeah, but then, you know, I was like, I in some ways, again, I don't, I genuinely don't really know pretty much anything about them. So I could be way off base here. But I was like, I always thought honestly, it was kind of weird that they started it not being married because like you are just dating, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and probably like early on in dating as well.
Speaker 2:I think it's been out for two years now, so like, yeah, you've been together for about a year-ish.
Speaker 1:It's not that early on, but it's like buttons to start a business with somebody.
Speaker 2:But what you said kind of opened my mind. You were like, but they probably didn't know how big it was like of course, everyone's goal is to have a successful podcast and you start a podcast, but you're like, but they probably didn't know what it was gonna actually become. Yeah. And I was like, okay, that's true too. I do think that was their intention because they it is really great production quality and everything, but you never really know how it's gonna end up. And like you might, even if you get the goal that you had, I think, especially when it comes with fame or like recognition, you don't really understand how that feels until you're in it. And even if you're like, oh, it's like all reality stars will be like, oh, I can handle it, you know? And then it's harder than you think it would be for sure. So I don't know if it was partially that too, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's hard. First of all, it's hard to start a business with someone that you're in a relationship with, like be in business with someone you're dating or married to in general. Exactly. Like we know that.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It can put like a big toll on the relationship in general. And and the fact that they weren't married, like going into business together, it's just like it's scary. It's scary because like what happens if you do break up? Like, yeah, and in this situation, I kind of knew what was gonna happen, which is the for the frontward-facing person's gonna keep the business. Right.
Speaker 2:Because she is the brand.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And if you're the person who's not that, right? You're in the back, we're doing the back support stuff, still a super important role. It's like you're gonna get shafted in the end.
Speaker 2:Maybe not shaft. Well, we don't know. We so I okay. The the funny thing is, is that when I even had this thought, my first thing I was thinking about was the business. I was like, I don't even care like about the personal part of whatever happened. I was just thinking the logistics of the business because that's immediately where my brain goes. I've also, it's not just a relationship with your romantic partner. I've worked with so many friends. And this is something we've talked about with Lex, our producer, who we've become really good friends from working together. And we've been like loose acquaintances before working together, but she, you know, we have a really good working relationship and friendship. And it is really hard to maintain that, I think, because those lines get blurry. And when you, I think, especially like Lex is similar, she's been in this creative field for a long time. And it's really common to like work with your friends. And we're now in our late 30s, so we've had a lot of experiences and many bad ones, you know, of like it not ending well. So when I see that they're younger than us, and I'm like, oh God, you're not married. Like, you don't what what did your contract look like? Like, these are the things I'm thinking about.
Speaker 1:I feel like they had a contract.
Speaker 2:It seems I mean, we don't know that she got shafted. What I'm saying is, like, I'm assuming she got bought out. Hopefully. It seems, it seems, again, we don't ever really know, even when someone is public facing, but it does seem amplicable in the sense that it's like it seems clean, you know. I don't I don't know.
Speaker 1:I feel like if somebody got bought out, because it's like that as a brand, it's gonna make money forever. No, of course, and continue to grow. And it's like, I'm hoping she got her.
Speaker 2:But I think if she got shafted, I feel like she would have said something. That's what I'm saying. I feel like she would have you could then go on. She has her own following, maybe not as big as the podcast or Mal, but she if it was a scandal and she got shafted, she would have been like, Yeah, I got, you know, it's like the caller daddy scandal, but even worse because they were in a relationship. That would have been huge. So I don't think she got shafted because I just think we would know personally. And I don't, I don't know, Mal, but she doesn't strike me as like a bad person, you know, that would do something like that.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's about bad, bad people doing things. It's just like I think when people get in that situation and they're protective of their brand and they're gonna keep it, it's like yeah, I think people can be selfish sometimes. Doesn't mean you're a bad person, but like, or you may not agree on what's fair. You might be like, well, I am the frontward-facing person, so I should be getting more. And you guys never agreed to that, so it's like it's just not clear. Things are really muddy and it can be really hurtful how things go down after.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you eventually have to come to an agreement, otherwise the podcast would just stall and nobody would own it. Because otherwise, Mal wouldn't keep putting out content if she didn't own it. You know what I mean? Why would you do that if you're still contributing? Why wouldn't she do that?
Speaker 1:Because if Because technically she is frontward-facing, so it's like, and if she can still keep putting out content because she would split it.
Speaker 2:She's gonna stop it. She would no, not that anyone would stop you, but if you're saying this is mine now, then like this is what happened with Caller Daddy, for instance. They stopped altogether when they were having this conflict because you're like, why would I keep making money for Barstool at the time is who they were fighting, and then with each other. Like, why would I keep doing that if I'm not getting what I want? So that's what I'm saying. I think if it wasn't a clean, amicable, like agreed upon break, then it would have just stopped for a while. That's my I that's my speculation. Maybe, maybe not. And I'm like, even just the podcast page itself, it's like it used to follow only those two. Now it only follows Mal. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't, I it just seems like it she owns it now. And I I'm like, if it is as big as it appears to be, like surely you had to have some sort of like legal contracts in place. Right?
Speaker 1:Like that I would be surprised if they didn't.
Speaker 2:If they did or didn't, if they did at all. Even when they got to like the media company point.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I feel like okay, this is the other part. If you look, I think they were together for like three and a half years, let's say. I think it was less than four, but a little more than three, something around there. It's a decent length of time. Breakups don't happen overnight typically. They are these slow chipping away most of the time. Sometimes you find out something, it's crazy, whatever. But it's like at the point you became a media company, my guess is there was already trouble in paradise. So then surely by that point, when you are up-leveling your business, you'd be like, okay, this is what this means for this next level of our business. And that at that point they would have a contract. Hopefully. I would imagine beforehand, they probably didn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would doubt it. But and it's I think that's the biggest thing is always have a contract.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, please.
Speaker 1:Always have an agreement in place of like what's gonna happen.
Speaker 2:With also your friends.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:With every it's not especially your friends. It's not like a cold thing. It's it's actually the most loving thing that you can do because you're especi you're gonna talk so much about the ideation process of the thing you want to create, and you're not gonna remember every single thing that every person said. And I just think of the contract as this reference point that is the black and white. Okay, this is the actual agreement because memories can be faulty and exaggerated and emotional, and it's just a reference point to go back to.
Speaker 1:This is what we agreed to. This is our responsibility. This is what how we're setting everything up.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But the other thing that I think with their breakup is I told you this, I was like, I felt like they handled it well too, considering they are public-facing. I know that Mathilde, the producer, is like a little bit more private, but not like she has like a private account or anything, you know? And I listened to the breakup episode that Mal did as solo out of curiosity. And I was like, I thought it was, I thought it she handled it very classy, where she explained enough to where it's like you're closing that loop for your listeners who have been there with you on this ride of your relationship, but you're not disclosing so much where you feel weird about how much you know about their relationship. Yeah, you're not like getting into all the personal details at all, and still spoke very highly of her, but not and she was, I think she cried on that, like it was vulnerable without being performative, and not oversharing, not oversharing, still speaking highly of this person, but not in a way that felt fake. You know, sometimes it's like we will be best friends forever, and you're like, No, you won't. No, you won't. It's just not possible. It was it was like I love this person, and that's why it was so hard. And that is sometimes the hardest way to break up, you know? So I thought she handled it amazingly personally. I know you didn't listen to it, but yeah, but that I think what you said is like so true.
Speaker 1:It's like because people are going to be curious. It's like they're following you for a reason, they look up to you or they're inspired by you, whatever it is. Yeah. And they're gonna want to know why. I think that's just natural curiosity. It's like obviously the internet does its thing, but people are always gonna be like, oh, like, I hope, like, I hope you guys are okay. Like, they just want to know you're okay and that they're like curious about what happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And if you give them just enough, like, like you said, and you're vulnerable, they see your pain, and they also see like you're being mature about it. I it it does like end the conversation there in a way. Right.
Speaker 2:Because it's like you don't everyone is entitled to privacy. Like, I'm a big advocate for that. Nobody we've talked about this before. Normalize lying. If someone doesn't want to tell you that they've broken up with someone yet, even if you have, they don't have to. People can talk about what they want to talk about when they are ready to talk about it, or never at all. And also, it's like it can end the conversation, like it can actually work in your favor, you know, and I think it is, it's relatable. Most of our listeners, I'm sure, have gone through a WLW breakup, you know. So it's like now, and that's kind of been what she's been doing after is saying, like, now you guys are gonna like come with me through this process of like healing, you know, like that recovery process after. And like, I guess she previously gave a lot of advice to people of like, oh, if you're going through breakup or like relationship type advice. So she's like, now it's like time for me to put it into practice, you know. So it's that I think relatable factor that makes her so likable. And for people to be like, oh, okay, like instead of digging for the dirt, like, ooh, what happened? What's the scandal? They're just like, I respect that and allow it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting. Like it really is all in how you handle it and what you say and how you approach it.
Speaker 2:And the thing is, is that most people who break up are not going to be public facing. So they're not gonna like have to deal with that, like, oh, how do I handle it? But you still you deal with that in your little microcosm of your your friend group or your family, you know, like it still is how you handle it, how you present it that effects the energy around the breakup. You know what I mean? Of how much you do decide to disclose and to who, and it's like all of those same ideas still apply, even if you aren't a public figure, don't have an Instagram at all, you know?
Speaker 1:It's like But you want people to respect you and and and your privacy and all of those things. It's like it applies in the same way.
Speaker 2:Because what do you think about the idea or just like the reason that they broke up, not specific to them, but just as conceptually, where it's like when you love someone still, but you know it's not right.
Speaker 1:That's the hardest situation, like you said. It's the hardest, it's the hardest situation. It's hard to let someone go knowing that you love them, but knowing they're not the one, or it's just not what's meant to be for you long term.
Speaker 2:Because it's like easier if someone if a big thing happens. Way easier, or even a lot of small things, but like when a big thing happens, because then you can attach blame to something versus or like be angry. Exactly.
Speaker 1:And it has like somewhere to go versus just like much harder to take action when it's like, yeah, things are like good, I love them, but like it's just not the thing. Like trying to take action in in that situation when you don't have a motivating force such as anger, like it, you know, or something, some emotion that's helping you like or just like propel yourself. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's so hard. And I and I think those relationships take in some ways the most courage to walk away from.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because it is so it it feels like this bigger risk almost of like, but what if I'm walking away from the best thing I'll ever have?
Speaker 1:But like, because I don't feel like I ever did that. Yeah, but you did. You had your like 99 person. Yeah. Like, how did you choose to walk? Like, how did you get to that place? Because it was, I feel like it was relatively quickly.
Speaker 2:It was. So, what you mean by 99 is that it's like I had had this talk with my brother right before I met you, two months before I met you. My brother is divorced, and we were just talking about relationships and love and everything. And um, he had been with his white, he had been with her for over a decade, a very long time, when they were super young. And um, and yes, we were just talking about relationships and stuff, and he and like this idea of kind of like soulmates and and everything. And I, I don't know if this does this mean I'm like a hopeless romantic. I don't know, but I've just always felt like, yeah, like there is someone out there who's like a hundred my brother is extremely logical and numbers oriented. So I was trying to speak his language where I'm like, I believe there's that like hundred percent person out there for me, like that 100. And he's like, what? Like, but perfection doesn't exist, you know? And I'm like, it's not about perfection, it's that they are perfect for me. They're not a perfect person, they're still gonna piss me off and drive me crazy and make mistakes, exhibit A sitting in front of me. But it they're perfect for me. It's that like puzzle piece, all the cliche, you know? Yeah. And he and I had recently ended things with this guy who I had met very brief. We were we dated for like four months or something, you know, not a long time. And when I met him, it was like, this is everything I've ever wanted. It felt like everything, you know, that I've been looking for. And it was the first time too I was dating for marriage. And I was, and he had asked, like, why did you guys break up? And I was like, Yeah, he he was, if we're talking numbers, I was like, he was like 99, you know? And that one percent that was missing though was like almost the most important because it's that like, you know, je ne sais quoi, like the thing that you can't put your finger on, but is like the most important piece. Yes, the thing that is that's the soul connection, yes, the soul connection that you love them for 60 years. Yes, it's not the things on paper that you can list, it's the deeper inexplainable part. And my brother, being the mathematician, is like, 99 sounds pretty fucking good to me. Like, I feel like you're being a little delusional here, you know? And I was like, I'm not saying 99 is bad, but I strive for 100. And more importantly, I believe 100 exists. And my brother, who at least before he was religious, and that's when we were having this conversation, he was much more cynical. And so he was like, uh, yeah, just the probability, he's a probability-oriented person.
Speaker 1:He's like he's like the probability of getting a 99 is like nothing. So, like if you get a 99, you should take it.
Speaker 2:Take it and run. What are you doing? Like, what if if that's what you're saying is true, is really 99? Like, why would he's like, I would be down for like 80. Like, that's what are you talking about, you know? And he's like, that you think you're not only gonna that you think 100's possible, and you think you're gonna find 100 out of all the people in the world.
Speaker 1:He thought you're crazy.
Speaker 2:He thought it was crazy.
Speaker 1:But so how did you walk away from the 99?
Speaker 2:Because I knew it wasn't 100, and that's what I wanted. And I thought, maybe I am crazy, but I just had this like deep belief where I was like, I I just don't think I am. Like, I don't know. And I'm like, and maybe I will die alone. You know, I was 30.
Speaker 1:Why is it always at 30 that we think we're gonna die alone?
Speaker 2:So I'm like, maybe I will, maybe I should start getting it.
Speaker 1:We're gonna hard on ourselves when we're when we're 30 years old. We're like at 30 years old, we're like, if you're single at 30, you're like, I probably will never meet someone.
Speaker 2:Like it's it's weird, it's crazy and so almost cute and laughable now. But yeah, it was just like, I don't, I just I call it faith. Like, I don't know what that feeling was in me, where it was just like, I just know that it's there. And like everybody has always told me that that's incorrect, and I'm so fucking glad I didn't listen to them.
Speaker 1:Me too.
Speaker 2:Obviously, me too. Because if I let that and I understand where that comes from, it's like as you age, usually you become more cynical because life happens and it hardens you and everything. But it's like, I am glad that I didn't listen and I had a strong Dululu because I was right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I think I think that's hard to do. Like you have to trust, it's it's hard to be in a situation where you love someone, recognize and acknowledge that it's not the thing, and then take that step because it's like it's really easy to be in that situation and be like, but it's like there is so much good about our relationship because those things are true and they matter, like I have so much fun with this person, or like I love how they are with my family, or things that you value that they are, but still have in your gut, the knowing that like, but this isn't but this isn't what I'm meant to be doing for the next 50 or 60 years of my life, right? And that doesn't mean that like they're bad, that they're bad or not enough relationship wasn't good, or like, right? It's like it's okay to for a relationship to end. It doesn't mean that you failed. But yeah, right. I think people struggle with that. It's like, but then I failed. And it's like, or maybe you just like had a beautiful love for a few years and like you learned what you needed to learn, and now it's time for you to go on and find the person you are supposed to be with forever. It doesn't mean that you failed, or that like doesn't take away from the love that you shared or the relationship that you did have. I think people have a hard time with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, either feeling like they failed or like I said before, like needing to attach blame, like having a good person and a bad person, a right and a wrong, like a reason, you know? Yeah. And I think even more so, because we do live in a misogynistic world and culture, that when a woman walks away from a man, I know we're talking about WLW breakups, but when a woman walks away from a man because she's like, I he was 99 and not 100, then that's also perceived as selfish. And you want too much, you need too much, like you expect too much. And he was a good man, he was a good man, and he provided, and like what more could you ever want? Yeah, like a definition of a good man is often he never cheated on you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was kind.
Speaker 2:That doesn't make him good, that's the agreement of monogamy, like that was a kind person and he didn't cheat it, and like he has a job. I'm pretty sure he's never hit you. You're like, okay, great, like that's not good, you know. So yeah, I think that's interesting. But I think when it's two women, a similar thing can happen where you're like, you know, I love them so much, but if someone's like, but they're all the right things, when women I think in general, when women choose themselves and that inner knowing and that inexplicable feeling, it's often defined as selfish. And that drives me nuts about our culture. I know.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's talk about Kate and Sarah.
Speaker 2:Yes, because it's very different.
Speaker 1:They were married, they were married and they were together for a long time.
Speaker 2:Yes, like 11 or 12 years or something.
Speaker 1:Since they were since they were like what, like 19 or 20 years old? Yeah. Like super young.
Speaker 2:We're not reporters, by the way. We don't know. We don't know. It's not a lore episode, so I but I believe that Sarah is a year older than Kate, and I think that they got together when they were around like 18, 19, somewhere in that ballpark. Um, and yeah, they were together between 11 and 12 years, something like that. I know that Kate or that Sarah was Kate's first girlfriend. Sarah was out before Kate, and I believe had girlfriend like high school or something. So Kate wasn't her first, but like first but early on, first big love. Yeah, first big love in adulthood. And Kate also, this is a whole part of her. So Kate is more well known on social media. Um, and Sarah is by proxy to Kate because so much of Kate's content was couples content. But I know that Sarah is more private in general.
Speaker 1:I don't think she's posted for like two years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's just like more of an observer and has a corporate job, kind of like you, like has a corporate job, but her girlfriend is like me taking pictures all the time. So, and she's just kind of like down, you know what I mean? But uh, but yeah, so what was I saying? So Kate, oh, so her parents sort of, I don't know if disowned is too strong of a word, but her and her parents did not have a relationship at all once she came out. She's from the Midwest. Her parents were very conservative, really did not agree with. I know that they kicked her out of the house because she was still living in her parents' house. Like that's how young she was. Yeah. When she met Sarah, they kicked her out of the house. She did not have a relationship with her parents to the point her parents did not go to their wedding. So they didn't have a relationship for a long time. I want to say like nine, maybe even ten years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, about a decade.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So super serious long time. And that, of course, even more so than Sarah's family is very accepting. I think Sarah's brother is also gay or something. So it's like they just have like a definitely queer family.
Speaker 1:It definitely like pulls you together even more with your spouse for sure. And in and her because you've lost because you've lost your family.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And now your spouse, like in their family, becomes your family.
Speaker 2:And because they were so invited, like she this was she had some viral moments that is about these stories, and that's why I know them. Is that you know, like the way that Sarah's family, her parents included Kate as these sort of surrogate parents, you know, was like very sweet moments, moments, you know. So the inner like, and that's really how the internet found them and fell in love with them. First, it was Kate had proposed to Sarah, and it was like these iconic pictures in front of the Eiffel Tower, and they're both in full glam. They're both really beautiful girls, you know, also both very femme looking, and it just like beautiful, it looked like models, you know. So those photos went kind of viral, and then they were on the Ellen show somehow. I don't know why they were on the Ellen show, but they were on the Ellen show, and then Sarah surprised Kate with a proposal on air. And that moment went super viral. So, but she but Kate had been on the internet since like Tumblr days because I see people commenting this now with the breakup, and even in Tumblr days, she was posting with Sarah because Sarah's been her first and only girlfriend the whole time she was.
Speaker 1:And she did a lot of couples content.
Speaker 2:And they have since, you know, now they're in their early 30s, I think 31 and two or three or so, you know, around that era. So they've grown up a lot. Their lifestyle has changed from like an 18-year-old partying when they met, you know, to now married and have done, they both did an egg retrieval, they got sperm, fertilized, and you know, so like everyone is like fully they felt like this really, I think, stable force almost.
Speaker 1:For sure. People feel like they knew them, they've like watched them grow up for 10 years, and they've been in like an aspirational couple for people to look up to.
Speaker 2:And I feel like aspirational in a way that it was ground, like very it wasn't aspirational, like look at us, look at me, flashy, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not like, oh, look, we have all this money and like it was aspirational, aspirational from like a relationship perspective.
Speaker 2:Healthy, loving, happy, not super performative. Like just felt very organic and like, oh, this is great to see hope that two women, you know, especially I think younger people, they and we we get younger people commenting this on our stuff where they're like, it's nice to know that's possible. You know what I mean? When you see your elder queers out there just existing in a normal way and in a healthy relationship. So I think they were that for a lot of people. And then, yeah, Sarah announced that they were breaking up. Kate. Sorry, Kate announced that they were breaking up and just something simple like, hey, some of you have guessed. Guessed, which I thought was interesting. I'm like, and that one I did not guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was not noticing.
Speaker 1:I thought it was interesting that she said that they have separated.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:They didn't say like we're getting divorced. Right. They said we have separated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Sarah and I have separated. We still are best friends and are going to be in each other's lives. We will not be answering any questions. So like please don't ask us. Like, respect our privacy. And you know.
Speaker 1:My initial reaction was just like.
Speaker 2:You were so sad.
Speaker 1:I I wasn't so sad. I was just like, my reaction was like, that is really sad. You know, it's like they are a nice.
Speaker 2:So you were like, you were shocked and you were sad. You were like, that's sad. Yeah, it's sad. Yes.
Speaker 1:It was because it's like they're they I don't even know if I follow them.
Speaker 2:I know. You were like, you said that.
Speaker 1:You're like, I don't even I don't I genuinely don't know. I might follow Kate. I don't know that if I follow them, but I've like obviously seen some of their content and they just seem like a sweet, happy couple.
Speaker 2:And that's why it's sad. And it's sad. Exactly.
Speaker 1:And it's just like, oh, that's that's sad. Of course, that sucks. And then I feel bad for them. And exactly. It's hard. Yeah. Especially people who've been together for that long.
Speaker 2:Like, that's just hard. So there's also been a lot of speculation online about different theories of what it could be. They've made it clear that they don't want to answer the questions, but people have said they're and I know this because Kate had also made a TikTok, it was like, you know, laughing of saying, like, oh, me seeing the theories that I'm going back to men. So some people are saying that Kate is going Kate is so gay. She is fiercely, fiercely gay. And I think that is, but she's ultra femme. And I think people wouldn't say that if she looked like you looked, for instance. They're just saying that because she's femme. That they're like, oh, well, if she's breaking up with Sarah, she must be going back to dudes. I'm like, seriously? That's the theory we're coming up with. That's annoying for me. But but also I saw this one and I want to hear your take on it that was saying, you know, after seeing this breakup happen, this person was like, I've had this theory in general about weddings that the more you spend on a wedding, the more likely it is you'll end up in divorce. She's like, Because from what I've seen, I'm now in my 30s. People who spent the most on weddings, they're all getting divorced. And she's like, people who spent basically nothing, chilling.
Speaker 1:That's been my experience as well.
Speaker 2:Really? Yeah.
Speaker 1:The people I know have spent a shitload of money on their weddings, all got divorced within five years of being married. What is that? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Is it because it's like more about the interesting thing?
Speaker 1:I just am hoping that we're good because we spent 10 grand.
Speaker 2:If that, I was like, okay, so we spent $36 on florals and got the rest from our garden. I was like, so we're like good for many lifetimes with this theory, I feel. But yeah, I don't know. I thought that that was I've never, I like, I've just never thought about it.
Speaker 1:Cause they also were not married for long. No, they were married for like we've been married for like three years. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So they got their wedding was the same year as our wedding, but we were married two years prior. So their wedding was in 2022. Yeah. It was not long before.
Speaker 1:So they've been married for three years.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I don't know. It's because my thing is like Yeah, it's just like, wow, like you made it as far as you did, but like you really didn't make it that far married.
Speaker 2:Right. So another thing that people bring up, marriage or not, and this has happened gaze straight across the board, is like the more you share, the more cut like if you're doing couples content, it's almost like you're destined to break up because it's the kiss of death.
Speaker 1:Yeah, getting the matching tattoo.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you're overcompensating. You're wanting to show, look at how cute and stable we are. So, like, are you?
Speaker 1:You know, I don't feel like they were doing that much. I don't of that.
Speaker 2:I can under I've seen that with people for sure. But I'm like, I don't think that's apply to them. No, I don't think it applies to them, and I don't think it applies to everyone.
Speaker 1:I feel like you can kind of sense the energy behind the posting.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:There's a couple that I'm thinking of that I'm not gonna say where I'm like I know who you're talking about. You guys are trying way too hard and like posting way too much shit like together, like constantly. It's just like you're trying to project this image of like you guys are vulgar, sexy, and yeah, it's just weird. Yeah, you're like sexually your relationship a lot too. Very sexualizing the relationship, like you're not gonna last. But just you wouldn't do that to your relationship.
Speaker 2:Right. I also do get a little annoyed when lesbians or two women sexualize their relationship like that because I'm like, who are you doing that for? Genuinely, it feels like you're doing it for the dudes and not for the girls.
Speaker 1:You even know, but also if you're even if you're doing it for the girls, which I think they might be, I'm like, you're not do like this isn't that's not beneficial for your relationship.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So I just think it's gross.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can it's immature. Yeah, I think that they are younger though, too. Yeah. So that makes sense, but it's like, you know, this idea of because you know, this I it's like people there's a lot about posting where you either don't post them enough or you're posting them too much. What is the sweet spot, you know? And I said this, I was like, are we fucked? Because we started this podcast and now we have to like create content for a podcast page, and what does this mean for us, you know?
Speaker 1:And I was like, I hope it's about the energy behind it. I think hopefully people can pick up on that, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. To where it's like, I don't need I don't we're not looking for relationship validation off of the internet tomorrow and still feel super good about us, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:But I think it is interesting, again, public facing or not, everyone has social media. I know. Everyone has social media, and they're going to, you know, like it's gonna be a conversation in your relationships of like how much you're posting your partner, even if you don't have a following. Yeah. So what like what do you like what do you expect? If you weren't with me, if you were with somebody who was like had a regular Instagram as just like a regular user, like how often should they post about us? Yeah, like would you feel insecure about if they didn't post about you at all?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't like that.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't like that either.
Speaker 1:I don't know what the right balance is, but like I don't know, I only really post us.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah. You're my whole life at this point. Oh my god. Your page looks like a memorial.
Speaker 1:I post sometimes like just a picture of me, but it's like rare.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I I would I think some healthy balance. I don't know what that looks like, but if you never posted about me, that would be weird.
Speaker 2:It would be and it's funny because speaking of, there have been times where I've just been, you know, I I use Instagram for work. Yeah, it's your business. And sometimes there sometimes I could post a lot of content of us together because it's just like relevant for whatever is happening at the time. And then sometimes there's stretches where I don't, and it's just because I have stuff I don't think about. And people have asked me, they're like, Where is like, are you and Alex okay? And I'm like, what? What are you talking about? Like you're like laying next to me in bed. And I'm like, what are you talking about? So there's also this like we don't, we never know the full picture. You never know, you know, just because someone is posting more of their whatever content than their couple, it doesn't always mean anything, you know? So I don't know. It's just I think the general consensus is, and those are just like the two most recent big lesbian breakups. I think there were also a few other TikTok or couple ones, but I don't know them as well. And a lot of people are just like, dude, this is 2025 was a bad year for the lesbians with like the Fletcher, the JoJo, you know, Billy, and then these big breakups. And I'm like, I don't the thing is, what are you gonna do? What yeah, like it happens, you know. So the one last thing I just want to say is something that comes up a lot in troll land. When we get the trolls on the comments, which we do when you make queer content, you will get a lot of trolls, and they'll be like, good luck with that marriage. Did you know that lesbian weddings have a higher percentage of divorce rates than straight weddings? To which my response is always, I would rather divorce a woman than marry a dude. So, okay, like good one, you know? But why is that? Why do you think that is?
Speaker 1:I mean, there's a lot of theories about it. One is that, like, in general, women fall in love faster and are faster to commit to something that may not be the right thing.
Speaker 2:Can't relate. Whereas like we move so slowly.
Speaker 1:If you have a man in the relationship, like they're often the ones to be like to pump the brakes a little bit more, take things a little bit more logically, or like yeah, in certain timing, and then things kind of unfold, right? So that's like one theory. And then one th another theory is that like women in general are more dissatisfied in relationships in general compared to men. Like for men, they always say like men when they're married, it's like everything gets better for a man. It's like they're happier, they make more money, like they everything is just like better for a man. Like they say, like women are just like more dissatisfied. And so, like, if you have two and then there's like they're both dissatisfied, it's just like a lot of dissatisfaction. Dissatisfaction. But in the end, it's like, I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2:And what about the lesbian bed death of it all?
Speaker 1:Like, do you Yeah, I think that might contribute to it for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and also I'm one of the things for me is I'm like, we've only been allowed to be legally married for 10 years. So also it doesn't feel like the same quality of data. Do you know what I'm saying? Like to look at a population that's only been able to be married for 10 years versus a straight population that's been able to be legally married since the beginning of time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like also like how significantly different is it? Because it's like, isn't it like of straight relationships? It's more than 50% of people get divorced anyway. So it's like, I don't think it's like 80% or something like that. It might be like 55 or 60. And it's like, okay, is that like statistically significant?
Speaker 2:I But my question is as time goes on, as our right, like as you know, one as it has continued to become more and more socially acceptable to be in a gay marriage, gay relationship be out, as that continues to just become more and more normalized and accepted, will that rate kind of equalize? You know what I mean? Because there's almost like a trauma that you're bringing with coming out, like that is part of it. There's like now there's two traumatized people who have this, you know what I'm saying? And like maybe as it becomes more socially acceptable, then it will become more aligned with straight marriages because we don't have the same hardship we have to overcome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know. You know, maybe there's also like for straight people, there's more societal pressure to stay married because of kids, because of religion, whatever that gay people don't face in the same way. So if they're like unhappy and they want to leave, they're more willing to take the step to get divorced. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But let us know your thoughts, guys. And who's the problem? So mine, can I do mine? Yeah. So just keeping it relevant to who we've talked about, because there's been also a lot of discourse with Kate. Like I said, the a lot of her content has been couples' content. People feel like they know them, they've followed along, like they feel entitled a bit to their relationship. And so in her breakup post for Kate to say, we will not answer any questions about this, please respect our privacy. People have felt a little almost like slighted by that. Like, what the hell? We know everything about your relationship from day one, but we can't know this, you know. So who's the problem? Is it Kate for sharing her whole relationship, but now all of a sudden wanting to be private? Or is it the audience for feeling entitled to Kate's life when ultimately she has the decision to decide she can change her mind at any point? She could be public her whole life and then say, actually, never mind, I don't ever want to be public again. So what do you think?
Speaker 1:I think that you're, of course, totally able to handle your breakup however you want. And I totally understand wanting privacy, like all of that makes sense. But as we went back to the example with Mal, it's like I do think if you were to just give people a little bit and be vulnerable, I think it would stop all the theories and all the discussion. Yeah. And so I don't know, like I'm kind of with the internet on this one.
Speaker 2:Really? You never side with the internet.
Speaker 1:I know. I was shocked. Yeah, I'm kind of with the internet.
Speaker 2:So, what I will say, I did just see a TikTok video that came out that said they do different um like cover different pop culture TikTok news stuff, and they covered this, and I guess they were able to connect with someone close to the source, whatever that means, a very close friend who said I heard really weird noise out there, but who said that one of the reasons that Kate said she wasn't gonna talk about it is because Sarah's more private and she's respecting Sarah's privacy. Right. And that I respect. I do too. You know, it's like you're choosing her, even if she's no longer your wife, over your audience's needs. To me, that's the most respectable thing you could do. Totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So yeah. I get it. That makes sense. Okay, my who's the problem is there's like this trend I feel like with the queers when instead of just breaking up with somebody, first they decide to go on a break.
Speaker 2:Oh, I thought you were gonna say the breakup video of it all.
Speaker 1:But it's like first you'd be like, I'm gonna go on a break and then break up with you. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:Like, is this a trend? I didn't know.
Speaker 1:It's like a trend where it'd be like, let's go on a break for like 30 to 90 days. Okay, and then we'll decide if we want to break up. And I feel like that is a big thing in the queer community. It's like a trend.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's a lesbian thing.
Speaker 1:And I'm not a gay guy. I think it's a lesbian thing too. And I'm kind of like, like, who's the problem? Like, like, can we just break up with people? Or like, do we have to like go on these breaks? Like, I feel like it's like if you have to go on a break, you probably just like you're just setting, you're like creating space so that you can break up with a person. And I'm just like, just break up with them.
Speaker 2:I think what do you think?
Speaker 1:So break or break up.
Speaker 2:So for the separation versus divorce is different. That's different. Marriage is a deeper commitment.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:That you yes, separate and decide. This is a big decision to make. I would say break up. Fuck the break. If you are a millennial or and grew up on friends, we all know what happens on the break. Nothing good comes from going on a break. Ever. Have we not learned? Like what?
Speaker 1:So I agree. I'm like, just break up. Just break up. Don't do the break.
Speaker 2:But it's because we're so like tender and like romantic and so like, but I still love you and want to be with you, and let's just test the waters and I'll forgive whatever happened.
Speaker 1:I think it's more just like we're so codependent that the only way we can break up with somebody is we need to go on a break to first create the separation to then be able to like mentally be able to end the relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. We've got this, you guys. We've got this. I know it's hard. We could do a whole nother episode on actual, you know, like breakup tips and tricks and all that kind of stuff, but we love you. Let us know what you think. Why are the divorce rates high? Who's the problem? We need to know for public.
Speaker 1:Tell us because we don't have the answers.
Speaker 2:Break or breakup. We love you. We'll see you next week. See you next week. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the show. We're so happy to have you here. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you're listening to podcasts. We love getting commentary from you on Spotify and on YouTube. And as always, if you love this episode or any of our episodes, make sure to share it with a friend or somebody who will appreciate the conversation.
Speaker 1:And make sure to follow us on all their socials at WivesNot Sisterspod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Thanks, guys. See you next week.