Wives Not Sisters
A playful, unfiltered podcast where a married wlw couple dives into the chaos of modern relationships, pop culture, queer lore, and all the little things most people wouldn’t admit out loud.
Wives Not Sisters is a queer-led podcast where marriage meets humor, honesty, and a little too much sharing but in the best way. We’re here to normalize nuance in relationships -- from romantic, platonic, familial, and everything in between- and to create a space where deep conversations and dumb jokes can coexist. Through real talk, playful debates, and just enough oversharing, we’re building a community that’s reflective, ridiculous, and radically relatable.
Wives Not Sisters
Should Straight People Be Allowed In Gay Spaces?
In this episode, married queers Alix & Kayla debate one of the most polarizing topics in LGBTQ+ culture—from gay bars and lesbian parties to allies, baby gays, and the future of community spaces. It’s thoughtful, funny, deeply personal… and ends with the messiest Who’s the Problem yet (yes, it involves towels).
This conversation explores queer history, safety, allyship, feminism, chosen family, and why context matters more than hard rules.
00:00 – Intro: married, queer & back for the new year
02:10 – “Everyone’s a little bi?” identity & labels
04:30 – The real question: straight people in queer spaces
07:45 – Coming out in 2009 & first gay bar experiences
12:05 – Why queer spaces feel intimidating (and necessary)
15:10 – Straight friends, allies & knowing the culture
18:45 – Lesbian spaces vs gay male spaces
22:10 – When inclusion goes too far (and when it doesn’t)
25:45 – Queer Camp: who it’s for and why it changed everything
31:30 – Bars vs retreats: sex, safety & intention
36:30 – Can you even “police” queerness?
41:45 – WHO’S THE PROBLEM: The Towel Incident 🫠
49:50 – Final thoughts & listener call-in
#QueerPodcast #LGBTQPodcast #QueerSpaces #Allyship #LesbianPodcast #StraightInGaySpaces #QueerCommunity #ChosenFamily #Feminism #WivesNotSisters #WhoIsTheProblem
Connect with us on social media: IG: @wivesnotsisterspod | TikTok: @wivesnotsisterspod | Youtube: @wivesnotsisterspod
Follow our hosts on Instagram: @kaylalanielsen @alix_tucker
You can also watch our episodes on Youtube at youtube.com/@wivesnotsisterspod!
Hey guys, it's Alix and Kayla. And we're married, not related, definitely codependent, but in a cute way.
Speaker 2:And we're back. We're here. We're queer. And it's the new year. Well, one of our dogs looks like a baby deer, and another one of our dogs we like to call Vladimir because she's a tiny dictator.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So And it's a new year. We're back.
Speaker 2:Yes. That is our poem for you for the new year.
Speaker 1:Haiku, if you will.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't think that's a haiku, but I don't know what a haiku is, I guess. Um so, anyways, I know we said on our last episodes, well, by the time this comes out, honey, they will have listened to a few already. So it's like deeper into the new year. But we we do just want to apologize again that we skipped a week.
Speaker 1:It was my fault. I messed up the audio. I don't know what happened.
Speaker 2:Well, it was but it was more that we just found out so late and we didn't have time to re-record and all of that. So we're here now. Yeah. And we would like to thank you for also being here and also being queer. And even if you say you're not, I don't believe you. So there's that. You know, one of my friends said to me the other day, I'm not gonna name her because you know, I don't want to out her as a straight-y, but I'm always like, just date women. Like you, because she talks to me about her problems with dudes. And I'm like, come on, like, and you she gives gay vibes. You know who I'm talking about. Okay. And we've been like, just I don't understand why you're denying it so intensely. And she's like, you know what? I'm gonna start calling you straight and see how you like it. And I was like, Oh, that's actually like a fair point. She's like, what if I just denied that you were queer and said, Hey, what's up, straighty? She's like, I love you, but I'm not gay. Okay. I'm sorry, but I'm not gay. But are you though? Right? Yeah. But then I was like, that is true. Like, I'm just fully like denying her identity. So dismissive. If you were calling me straight, I mean, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would not go over well.
Speaker 2:So I'm sorry to everyone who I've been denying, okay? You're not sorry. I deeply deeply apologize.
Speaker 1:On New Year's, we're having our own little party, you and me, and you're like, but everyone is bi. Everyone's bi.
Speaker 2:I think I think everyone has the ability to open themselves up to loving all kinds of people. That I do have that belief. Whether you want to call that bi or fluid or pan or whatever that is, I think everybody has that ability, but people shut it off. And it's funny because when I say stuff like that publicly, people call me homophobic and or biphobic. And I'm like, hello, I'm bisexual in a gay relationship. But and they're like, you can still be those things. And I'm like, okay, I guess, but I'm not saying bi people don't exist and everyone is bi. I'm just saying I think, regardless of the label of it, everybody has the ability to love all kinds of people. Okay. We got a little sidetracked. I just realized we don't have a game. Oh shit. Well, we don't need to do a game. Okay, in my defense, because I usually plan everything. I'm a planner, I'm on my period. That's my defense. That's the excuse you're gonna use. I just you know how your brain is a little mushy where you're like not all there. Yes.
Speaker 1:And then I still feel a little foggy. One of our new year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the new year, one of our dogs woke me up at 3 45 to go out and I didn't go back to sleep, so there's also that. And I'm I got the blood baby, you know? Yeah, you get the that's okay. That's a defense. Yeah. So I guess our game was just that of dissecting straightism.
Speaker 1:Perfect.
Speaker 2:So let us know. I know that many of you are straight because you like to tell me after each episode. After each episode. But also more importantly, like I said, we wanted to thank everyone for being here, for leaving the reviews, the comments. We love it. There was one YouTube comment that I saw today that was like, is it normal to cry every time I watch these episodes? Which I didn't know. Are you laugh crying or are you pretty crazy? Are you head crying? Yeah, it was our homoerotic episode. I think it was laugh crying?
Speaker 1:I don't know. Hopefully. I don't know, but usually our episodes are lighter, you know.
Speaker 2:Anything is normal. Like, what is normal?
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:You know? So, anyways, we love seeing the comments from you guys. And today, we're talking about a another hot topic in the in the gay world, especially.
Speaker 1:I have a perspective on this topic.
Speaker 2:Okay, I don't even know if you're gonna remember this. You you're already like, oh no. Oh no, what is it? So I brought this topic up to you about a year and a half ago, summer 2024. Yes. We're on a hike. Do you remember? We were in Tahoe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I got mad at you.
Speaker 2:No, I think I got mad at you.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:But needless to say, I remember that there was contention. Yes. I think we got mad at each other.
Speaker 1:Like not real mad, but like annoyed. Annoyed, yeah. Like, oh, I don't want to talk about this anymore. You're so annoying.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because I think I heard it either I s somehow I heard it on a podcast or saw it come up somewhere in some sort of content, and then I brought it up to you, just like out of curiosity. What do you think?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:About straight people in gay spaces or queer spaces. And we like we said, didn't end well. So we obviously have different perspectives about it.
Speaker 1:We didn't agree.
Speaker 2:But on a but what I think is funny about that, almost tangentially. How do you say it? Tangentially. I don't know.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Is that I would imagine okay, stereotypes there's usually some sort of truth in them. They're not just like they don't just come out of nowhere. But sometimes they are completely wrong. And then that creates assumptions, you know? And what I'm saying is I think most people would assume that we have opposite perspectives because you are super you're the gayest of the gay, you know?
Speaker 1:Also, don't come at me for my manspreading. Apparently, that's you guys are coming after me. I just this is just how I sit.
Speaker 2:They didn't come after you, they just all they wrote was manspreading. No exclamation, no emoji, no just just an observation. But like, you know, you present a certain way. You are a gold star lesbian. We get it, we know you're super gay. Uh-huh. I present another way, which is very straight-looking, more femme. I'm bi.
Speaker 1:I was always, you know, so I think maybe you're queer in the mind.
Speaker 2:My mind is much queer. Yes. Queer.
Speaker 1:You're queerer in the mind than I am.
Speaker 2:Yes. And but so I think most people would think, oh, well, the mega lesbo, that's you. That's what we're gonna call me though. Seriously? The Mega, Mega Lesbo, she would probably be more protective of queer spaces because you've also been out longer, you've faced more adversity in a sense of just coming out in a world where gayness was less tolerated, you know, even if that didn't it Yeah, in 2009, like right then queer spaces was a necessity. In the Midwest, no less, you know. So it's like you would think that would be your opinion, and I would be like, What's the big deal? Like, you know, every because of the way I look and seem, but it's actually the opposite. Spoiler alert, it's the opposite.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But I will say Let's start with your your thoughts, and then I'll tell you mine.
Speaker 2:Well, let's start with yours because I just did a long monologue, but I what I was gonna say is that I have come around more to your thoughts based on the way that you have presented things. So Okay.
Speaker 1:Well, let me just tell you about me being a little gaby back in 2009.
Speaker 2:And with long hair and highlights.
Speaker 1:Like in my coming out story, I I told people like I was pretty nervous about coming out. Like it was not an easy process for me by any means. There was a lot of fear and anxiety about coming out. And when I eventually started to come out, part of why I came out was because my one of my best friends like caught me essentially. Who was straight? Who was straight, and she caught me making out with my first girlfriend. Okay. And we were like at this like street fair, and I thought we were like, nobody could see us, and we were seen. And so she I didn't know that she saw me, but we went to lunch like the next day or two days later, and she was like, Was she your roommate too? No, she was my little sister in my business fraternity.
Speaker 2:Oh my god. Didn't your roommate catch you also?
Speaker 1:I think no. No, this was that's who it was. She wasn't my roommate.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:And we went to lunch and she was like, So what's going on with you and Cammie? And I was like, What do you mean? You know? And she's like, Alex, like, I know. And I was like, I'm not gonna admit anything. You haven't told me yet that you know anything yet. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:I played the fifth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. She's like, Alex, I saw you guys making out like at the at this like street fair. And I was like, Okay, like now I'm busted, now I have to like tell you.
Speaker 2:And I was like, You didn't even try to gaslight her, like we were wasted, and like you don't make out with your friends. Like, what kind of friend are you?
Speaker 1:I told her after she told me that she saw.
Speaker 2:I guess that's the healthier thing.
Speaker 1:And she was like, she was like the most progressive person in the world. Like, she would never judge me for this, but it was still scary for me because it's like admitting it to myself, and then it's like more people. Yeah, yeah. And so, anyways, she was super awesome about it, of course. And that kind of like it kind of started my journey of like wanting, as I then started to admit it to more people and like telling more people, it became a thing of like, well, I want to explore that part of your explore my identity and meet other gay people because I think more like expressed in it. Yeah, I didn't know anyone except for the girl that I was dating who lived in another state. I didn't know anyone who was gay. Right. And she was like the my biggest hype woman. Like she was just such a good friend.
Speaker 2:You're straight BFF, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she was like, We gotta go to the gay bars, like let's go. And she was like, I heard about this monthly party. How did she hear about this monthly party? That's what I'm saying. She was like, she was like one of those girls in college who did like all the women's studies courses, like very like a progressive person. You had very open-minded and would probably even be like, Yeah, I would hook up with a girl, like wouldn't identify as by, but like very open in that way. And so she was like, We gotta go. And I heard about this party, like, we should go together. And going to that first party was how I met my next girlfriend. I met her that at that party. So my friend Nicole, who took me there, she was like, number one, like the best wingman you could have ever had. Like, helped me meet a group of friends that night, helped me meet a girl that I eventually dated.
Speaker 2:Got you there in the first place.
Speaker 1:Got me there in the first place, and I ended up meeting like 10 people that eventually became my friends. Like, and um, just because of that, going out that one time, and I ran into a guy that I knew from college and he connected me to some people. Was he gay? He was gay, yeah. Cute. Yeah, and he was awesome. We worked together at Abercrombie and Fitch like four years prior as freshmen in college, millennial. He was gay at the time because I was oblivious. Right. And and then yeah, he was friends with the girl that I ended up dating. Yeah. My first my first girlfriend in Minneapolis.
Speaker 2:And is that the girl we talked about and who's the problem? Yes. Where you cheated at the same time? Yes. Yes. So just a throwback to that.
Speaker 1:Go back.
Speaker 2:Go back and listen to that up.
Speaker 1:But had my friend not encouraged me and gone with me, I never would have gone. Ever. No. It's so in first of all, it was so intimidating to go into that space, anyways.
Speaker 2:Because one, it's like it's intimidating to go to any bar alone.
Speaker 1:Straight any bar, but super intimidating to go because it's like I'm not securing myself yet. I don't dress the same way as these people because I'm still like a straight-y.
Speaker 2:She had long hair and highlighting.
Speaker 1:I didn't, you know, like I didn't have my style, my swag that I have now. Okay. It was just super intimidating to go into this space. And it's like, bars are not the easiest place to meet people, especially if you're by yourself. If you have a friend or two with you, it is easier to meet people, but it's still hard. And I would just say it's so intimidating.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's we talked about this the other night too. I think the only caveat is like if you're traveling, I think that's when everyone is more open and like, oh, where are you from, you know? But when you're in your hometown or wherever you're living, you know, even if it's a bigger city, it's so hard. It's so intimidate. Even if it's a straight part, I'm it's not just gay, straight, whatever. It's the same way I find, and maybe this is just my yoga brain working, but it's like people say that about yoga studios. It's like intimidating when you go into this niche club, is what it feels like, you know, regardless of the environment, alcohol or not.
Speaker 1:You don't have the cool outfits that they all wear in these. They speak a different yoga club, they speak a different language.
Speaker 2:It's like and you're like, they're all doing the same thing.
Speaker 1:You don't know what they're doing and why they're doing it.
Speaker 2:You don't know the culture yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And it's and it's super intimidating. And so I never would have gone by myself ever. And her going with me and being super cool and like being fun and introducing herself to people, and like we just had the best night ever. And like I made a bunch of friends that night.
Speaker 2:And then you can from that point on go with your gay friends. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:She still went with me like a few more times, but it was like, yeah, now I'm like connecting with people. Then I felt more comfortable to show up by myself because I knew people that were gonna be there. Yeah. And that changed my life, literally. So having her go with me.
Speaker 2:I'm as you're saying this, I'm remembering that I did hear it on a podcast. It was Cami and Taryn's, which by the way, I always say Tammy and Karen. So I'm glad I didn't say that. My little dyslexia always comes out. It was and this was a long, like I said, at least a year and a half ago. So it was a while ago, but they were talking about it, and that what they were talking about is Taryn has a lot of guy friends, and it so they were talking about it more in relation to straight men in lesbian spaces, which I do think is a slightly different dynamic.
Speaker 1:I disagree.
Speaker 2:I know you disagree, but I'm saying it, and we will get more into that, but I do think that is a difference between you going with your girl Bestie, you know, then going with a straight dude who I'm not saying all straight dudes are bad. I know that there's not an all or nothing for any group of people. You know, we talk about Elbert all the time. Angus, hello. He was a gem of a human. And we talked about that. We're like, yeah, he just didn't make it weird. If he was at a lesbian bar, I would end up hanging out with him before. You wouldn't feel fair. I feel like you're my friend. Exactly. Because he's like in on the culture. He's not trying to be weird, everything is fine.
Speaker 1:But it's like But my thing is that gay people don't invite people to those spaces who aren't in on the culture because they why would they be? They're gonna invite their straight guy friend who's a total dickhead and's gonna hit on all the lesbians. That's embarrassing for them. So why would they do that? They're only gonna bring around an Angus, but who's in on the culture?
Speaker 2:No, but not necessarily, because if they're a baby gay like you, and you didn't, you might not realize that your guy friend is a douche yet. Do you know what I'm saying? Because you're used to straight culture, so you don't know that he's gonna go and hit on all the lesbians. I think that's the scenario, more so than if you're already like in your gayness and in-I'm sure that that does happen, but I've never experienced that. Right.
Speaker 1:And I've been to a lot of gay spaces, and I'm around the base because it's like I get where you're coming from, but also like you really haven't been to gay spaces before.
Speaker 2:Totally. Yeah. I have, I have been to more like a club, but it was more gay guy. It's a different, yeah. It's a different culture than even a lesbian space. Totally different. I've never been to a lesbian space before because I mean, a lot of it just had to do with where I was living. You know, I was living in in places that didn't have those.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Living internationally. And then when we got together, it was COVID. It was COVID B. I already hadn't been drinking for a while. Not that you can't drink when you go out, but it was just, you know, I think I think COVID was actually a bigger factor than the drinking because it wasn't possible to do any of that stuff. And then by the time COVID was over, we're trying to have babies, and that was my focus. Like, I'm not going to bars. You know what I mean? It's just a different phase of life. But it is so true that it's like, I don't have the lived experience that you have. I have this like perceived experience. You know what I mean? And I think in general, I I like to try to see things from all perspectives. So it's like my perspective of like the defense, the opposite side, you know, is that I can understand why queer people want queer spaces. Want a queer space that is that isn't inviting people in who don't know the culture, you know what I mean? Like where they want that exclusivity because they're like, in the rest of the world, we don't have that. So we it's nice to have this little bubble.
Speaker 1:I agree because also it's like if I showed up at a queer space and it was like 50% or more straight people, I'd be like, This isn't a queer space and this sucks.
Speaker 2:Right. This was like advertising.
Speaker 1:If I show up to a queer space and it's 10% straight people and they're down with the culture and it's like 90% queer people, I'm like, I'm super cool with it.
Speaker 2:Okay, I also think, because like I said, I think the gender thing is a factor because think about like a gay boy space. I call them boys, you know, because I don't know. I know they're men, but you know what I mean. They're like little gay boys.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Not all, again, but many, they love to be surrounded by like beautiful women, you know, even if they're straight girls. They let that's like part of their culture in some ways, where it's like they love just like hot girls.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they want backhags around them.
Speaker 2:Not to fuck them, but because they're like, so they wouldn't care if a bunch of beautiful girls were in their gay bar, as long as it wasn't, you know, lowering the amount of also hot boys that could go in the bar as well. Like they're not taking up all the space. Whereas like a lesbian culture is more like we don't want men around. You know what I mean? Uh, not all lesbians are that way.
Speaker 1:I know, but I'm saying Yeah, I don't know that that's like true, actually.
Speaker 2:I that's what I hear, I would say, where it's like a combination of not only your sexual orientation, but also feminism. I think it's two things happening at once where you're like, What? I want this like safe space, not only for my sexuality, but also for my gender identity. And obviously, women are historically oppressed, and we also want these safe spaces and all of that kind of stuff. That's what I see more, where it's once again, like the argument is happening on the girl side of things, and the gay guys were like, whatever, you know.
Speaker 1:And then I would say my other experiences with this is that like in when I was living in San Francisco, there was this really famous day party that would happen, and it was for queer women, but it was like the culture of the space was actually like it was probably like 60, 40 or 70, 30.
Speaker 2:Well, the thing about San Francisco, that is San Francisco. The culture of the city is gay.
Speaker 1:It's just even if you're straight. And it would be, and it it was just like it was just queers of all kinds. It was just so diverse, you know, lots of trans folks, lots of just like all sorts of different queers. People. Yeah. And that event, we would always roll up with like a huge group of people. It'd be like 15 of us. And there was one of one person that would always come with us, it was one of our friends' roommates. Oh, I thought you were gonna be. And it was a straight guy. Yeah. And it'd be like 15 of us, like 14 lesbians and like one straight dude. He was just always with us. It was just like literally, you would have thought he was a lesbian. But he's a straight guy, like straight tech bro, right? He was also from L. He was awesome. He was like, I'm showing up to every mango. I go to every mango party and it's gonna be amazing. And he was awesome. We always wanted him there. He was just like the most fun person to hang out with. Right. And majority of the time it was totally fine. But one time it we did have an experience where someone came up to us and got really pissed that he was there.
Speaker 2:Was it a man or a woman who came up to you?
Speaker 1:It was a woman. Thing. And he wasn't doing anything. He was with us. We were all dancing in a group together. But that's what I'm saying. And someone came up and started yelling at us that he was even there. And it was like, dude, he's literally just existing.
Speaker 2:But how did she even know that he was straight? It was obvious. You can spot a straight dude a mile away. But I feel like some, for instance, like trans men or trans women, they can appear straight because they're you know what I mean? So it's like, how did she even know if this was a big thing?
Speaker 1:I don't know if she had seen him at the bar getting drinks or something, and then like had an interaction with him, but something happened and then she came up and started yelling.
Speaker 2:And I felt so bad for him because it's like Was she yelling at him or you guys or both?
Speaker 1:At him, just being like, get out of here. Yeah. Yeah. And we were like, dude, he literally hasn't done anything. Like, come on. But so I get it. I get that it can be like upsetting to people, but I mean, this guy like came every single month to this party, like for years. Well, my friend.
Speaker 2:And was like always chill and cool. My question is also like, is she yelling at the rest of the 30% of straight people who are there? I don't know. You know, or like so nothing happened. She didn't like see something happen that made her feel uncomfortable or anything like that. Yeah. I so, but that's a that for me.
Speaker 1:Though. Yeah, but for me, it's just like, first of all, this is this isn't like a strict lesbian party.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's what I'm saying. It depends how strict the rule is. We wouldn't know have brought this guy to a lesbian party.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because there's like other parties where it's like some parties you just know. It's like this is just just lesbians. Yeah. And we would sometimes bring gay dudes with us because Exactly. Some gay dudes are like lesbians and they they fit in with the lesbian party. For sure. It's all about knowing what the party's vibe is and who can show up to what. Yes. And it's like we never would have brought them into those spaces because it's just not right. But in that space, it was so diverse and so mixed of different types of people that yeah, it's just about knowing the space and who would feel like that.
Speaker 2:I definitely agree with. I definitely agree with that, where it's like, okay, if there's a this is a lesbian party, and I agree, yes, bring a gay dude with you because there's it's the threat that is perceived about men, you know, and that threat typically comes down to like a physical, it feels like a physical threat, whether it's sexual or physical, you know, where it's like you're going to prey on me in some way that I don't want, and a gay man isn't gonna do that to a lot of people.
Speaker 1:So that's why you wouldn't want like street dudes to be there.
Speaker 2:I I don't know. It wasn't as much about like this is what I want. Do you know what I mean? It was more like I can understand why people say that, you know? Whereas like when I think I think it's so hard to have a rule that just like applies to everything and everyone at every time because those bl you know, but I do I I agree with the protection of queer spaces and there should be things, whether it is bars, events, whatever, that are extrict yeah, extrictly, exclusively, strictly queer.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's okay to turn straight people away. I I think that is okay in some, like in some of them. But do I think that I just so don't agree with that?
Speaker 1:I know, I know you don't. Because my thing is like we all want allies, but then we don't want them to ever show up in our spaces. But that's why I'm not saying ever.
Speaker 2:I'm saying in some instances, like you said, is that you would never have brought him to that lesbian party. Yeah. So it's like maybe these are unspoken.
Speaker 1:But I would have brought in the straight girl to some lesbian parties.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:So it's just knowing, it's knowing the spaces. And my thing is like every time I've ever moved to a new city, and I because I've moved across the country or like moved to different places multiple times, right? And had these experiences where I need to make friends as an adult.
Speaker 2:New gay friends specifically. Yeah.
Speaker 1:New friends in general, but like, yeah, new gay friends. The way I've done it every time is literally always a straight person has come with me to the gay bars, and then I make friends, and then boom, I'm off to the races. Like a co-worker, whoever I feel safe with.
Speaker 2:Because it's literally math. There are more straight people than gay people.
Speaker 1:And so it's more likely that your co-worker helped me get plugged into the city in that way. Right. And they feel good about it too, because they're like being an ally. They want to show up and be like, I want to like help you with that experience. I want to be your friend. I I want to go to this experience to support you. I like because they're not going to feel comfortable going to a gay bar by themselves, but they've maybe they're like, I've always wanted to go, and I would love to like support you in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's like also nice to give them that experience too.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't feel bad. I don't feel like I need to give a straight.
Speaker 1:I don't feel like I need to give them the experience, but it's also like it is a nice thing for them too.
Speaker 2:It's a nice gesture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's like, well, now they feel comfortable being in this space, and I'm feel comfortable because I'm making new friends, and it's like it's a cross-cultural experience. It's nice.
Speaker 2:It's the same as traveling, you know?
Speaker 1:But okay, and now we're more bonded in some way, you know?
Speaker 2:Right. The reason that all of this came up again now, because like I said, we had this conversation a year and a half ago, but the reason it came up now is because we've been planning queer camp. Yeah. If you don't know, we're planning a queer camp. We have a place in Nicaragua. We we have a retreat center here. We want to do an adult summer camp at some point. Yeah. Like a week-long summer camp filled with adventure and new experiences and surfing and young people and cooking and you know, like all just fun activities. And literally the name that's always been in our head is queer camp. So in my head, this was always exclusively for queer people. But then I was starting to think about it because back to the power lesbian. If you're listening, shout out.
Speaker 1:We love you, power lesbian.
Speaker 2:She came with a friend to my last yoga retreat, and her friend was this was not a queer, this was just my yoga retreat, you know? Her friend is, well, I say straight, and she calls herself straight, but she's like, hasn't everyone had sex with women? Like, yeah, I have sex with women. I'm like, that's not straight. Okay, but whatever. She is dying to be a lesbian. She's literally, she reminds me of Kit from Elward or somebody who's like wants to be in so bad, but is like doesn't have that soul connection with women, you know? But a lot of her friends are gay, you know? And so I was like, Oh, I, and just thinking about those two specifically, wanted the power lesbian to come back, wanted her friend to come with her. Her friend is straight. Yeah. You know, and I was like, okay, anyone who's straight that would go to a something called queer camp, like that's how you're gonna spend your money, take your time off of work. You're like, sorry, yes, I need to request a week off. I'm going to queer camp. I'm sorry, you're an honorary queer at that point. For sure. That's and then I was like, that's if you are, um no one, and this, and this is very different than a bar where it's just like open entry, anyone could come in because this is more expensive. It's more in, you know, no one, a predator isn't gonna show up to do that's way too much work to do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Somebody who's gonna act weird around gay people. Like no one, but you know, so that kind of like changed my mind a little bit. I was like, oh, like in my head, this was always only queer people. But also, like I said, we have a lot of straight listeners. And if any of those people want it, if someone is willing to come to something called queer camp, you're welcome. Because you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Yes, because if you're listening, you're like, that sounds amazing. I want to be surrounded by a bunch of queers and go to queer camp. Yeah, I feel like you're welcome. Exactly. One of my best friends is straight. Yes, but all of her friends are lesbians and gay guys. Like she literally has like two straight friends, I think. I didn't even know she had any straight friends. I think she has like two straight friends. And I'm like, if Nat wants to come to queer camp, Nat's coming to queer camp. Oh, for sure. Exactly the same thing. Everyone thinks she's queer, anyways. My parents or my family over over Thanksgiving was like, we were like, oh yeah, Nat has a boyfriend, like thinks she's gonna be gonna get engaged. And they're like, Oh, that's her first boyfriend. Is this her voice boyfriend? I thought she was a lesbian. Like, what? She she's not gay, like, no, Nat's straight. Right. And so it's like, yeah. If she wanted to come to queer camp, all the queers would be stoked to have her. Exactly. And if you're one of those people and you're listening to this and you're not queer, you're you're identifying straight, but you're like, that sounds amazing.
Speaker 2:That sounds just like this wholesome, fun experience. Yes. So that I want you here. Exactly. Exactly. That shifted my mindset a little bit because you know, I'm like applying it to real people who I know. And I also thought of Nat as well, where it's like, I imagine We love you, Nat. She's like, Why are you calling me by name? Okay, but I imagine her, like, let's say that she didn't know us, that Nat didn't know us, and she just happened, she would literally listen to this podcast, you know.
Speaker 1:And be like, I want to come to Queer Camp.
Speaker 2:But she would be like, Oh my god, Alex, guess what? This podcast that I listen to is really random, but they have this place, and she also loves surfing. Nat's a big surfer too. So she'd be like, they're doing this thing, like we should go. You know what I mean? And she would tell her friend group that who is all gay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it would be the best time ever. Ever. Ever.
Speaker 1:And every queer person who was there would be like, I'm so happy Matt came because she's like, She's a little like sparkly unicorn.
Speaker 2:Yes. You know? So yeah, it it did. But again, I think the difference is, is, is the environment of a bar, you know, because it is also typically you go to bars, yes, to meet people, but like to hook up. Yeah. You know, so you're like pursuing romantic endeavors. Yeah. Oh, that's a cute way to put it. You're going to hook up, okay? Or to like meet someone a date. Yes. Well, that's what I mean. But it it starts with a hookup. Does it? Yes, even a kiss, uh whatever. But so yeah, it's like you want people to be there who who you can hook up with. Yeah. I think that's part of it. You know, where you're like, I'm already because in the outside world, not enough people are available to me because not enough people are queer. So I want to go into this space and know this is my pool to choose from. So if you're like, well, that that's a straight dude, and now like that's a gay dude, and now that's a straight girl. Like, you know what I mean? It's like I want just other gay girls here to know that like this is where I can go fishing. You know what I mean? So and I think that's different than like going on a queer camp where it's like, that's just about this wholesome travel connection community experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sure, we might have some people come who end up getting married. I wouldn't put that past the lesbians. That would be amazing. I hope so. But that's not like why we're doing it. No. You know what I mean?
Speaker 1:So it's like it's gonna be a fun way to like meet people meet new people and have new experiences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, shared values, like that type of thing. But that's different than a romantic connection or like a sexual connection, which I think makes it different in that type of queer space versus a bar queer space. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's gonna be the best week ever because I just think about first of all, every retreat group that comes here, there's always at least one queer person that comes without failure. At least at least. Sometimes two, three, four people. Right. And watching their faces when they come here and they realize that we own the place. Yeah, like two queers own the place, they lose their mind.
Speaker 2:Well, even now, even just now, I was up there. We have a group here, and I was just up in the restaurant area with them, just like saying, Hi, they just got here. And you oh, you know, you weren't there with me. And someone, the leader had introduced me. She's like, Oh, that's because they one of the guests asked her, like, Oh, are you another like host here? And I was like, Oh, kind of, like, I'm I'm one of the owners. And she's like, Yeah, this is like Kayla, she's one of the owners. And I was like, Yeah, me and my wife, you know. So it's known right away, and you can like see people's face change when they're like, Oh, like what? Like you and your wife. And I think it's even less expected from me because the way I look, you know, for people.
Speaker 1:So But watching people's faces when it clicks, because it's like they're in a new country, yes, that feels like maybe it would be a conservative country. I don't know, because maybe I don't know what it's religious, right? A lot of Central America is Catholic. Yeah. And then it's like, wait, two women who are married run this place and own this place. It's just like it's really exciting for people.
Speaker 2:Well, it's also they it is more conservative than the states. I'm not talking about politically conservative. I'm just saying socially. Socially, exactly. Where it's like, yes, gay marriage is not legal, civil union is valid, you know, gay fertility is not a sperm donors in general, whether you are a single mom or yeah, your husband's sperm doesn't work, you know. So it's like there are things that are very like that is much more conservative. That's why people think that. And because locally, you know, the way that a local would treat a foreign gay person would be potentially different. And we were just talking about this the other day, than like how they would treat especially a gay man. Sure. Whereas like gay women here, even locally, are much more tolerated than a gay man because of the machismo culture. So there's like layers to it, you know. But like any queer person traveling, you're sort of like, ooh, where you're sussing it out. Where am I safe? And so I would rather just be like a little bit more reserved because you want to be more safe.
Speaker 1:Exactly. And then to know, like, you show up at this place for a week and it has gay owners that are very unexpected. It's just gonna it's just gonna be the best week ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So that kind of had changed my mind a little bit about about stray people in queer spaces. But I think my overall answer is that it isn't a all or nothing they should always or they should never. I think it is situational. And I think what would be helpful is if it was more explicit in the event, like more explicitly said, genuinely, of instead of just like, well, I was testing out the vibes and it kind of seems because otherwise I don't think it should be explicitly said whatsoever. I but then otherwise you're someone's gonna yell at you. Not necessarily.
Speaker 1:You just I think that's rare. It's rare. He'd been going with us for years before that ever happened. Like, I think it's rare, and I think it's better to go to the event, experience it, you kind of know what the vibe is, or ask your friends, ask around, like, and you'll kind of understand what it is, and then just be cool about it. Like I for if somebody put on an event like this is only for lesbians and gay boys, and no one else can, and all these other people do not show up, or you will be dismissed at the door. It's like, what? That that's so weird. Yeah, and I guess what would happen at this event that I went to, and the the one I was talking about in San Francisco, is that um there would always be a line to get in because it was such a popular party, and a lot of times, like a group of straight people would be like, Oh, what's so happening? So they'll get in the line. Yeah, and people at the door would be like, just so you know, this is a lesbian event, like this is a mere party, and they'd be like, Oh, we didn't know, and they would leave. Yeah. But they're like, Oh, there's something awesome is happening, I'm gonna get in line. But I think explicitly like saying that, like I think that okay, that's true when you put it that way.
Speaker 2:I think it's more just yeah, being specific with the marketing about who is instead of saying if you're straight, you can't come, of just being like, hey, this is for, this is who it's for. Yeah. This is for gay people, or because even the difference between.
Speaker 1:I think you see it in the marketing, you see the pictures of who's there. Like I always take pictures of the party. You can see this party is very diverse and mixed. This party is all women. Like you can just tell by the, like you said, the marketing promos that people know what the vibe is.
Speaker 2:Right. But I want to hear what everybody thinks about it because well, I did ask. I asked on Instagram, I put up a poll because I was curious, you know? And I put uh, you know, should straight people be allowed in queer spaces? Yes, no, or yes, sometimes never. And the majority was yes and sometimes. It was only three percent that said never. So it was a really small amount. I don't remember the exact number of votes that we had, but it was it was well, it was like 300 total votes. So it was like a decent, a decent amount. And um someone else had commented something interesting where they were like, also, like, how do you check? How would you check if someone is straight anyways? Or like, or what if I think like this is also where it gets complicated, which is a separate conversation I think we will have eventually on the pod. Is and this is why even the word queer, it's an umbrella term that's different than gay. So queer, like you said, that party, you're like, it was all kinds of queer people. Trans people can identify as queer, but a trans person can be straight. You know, many trans people are straight. So they, you know, this person was saying, like, if what if a trans person wanted to go to a like a queer event, but they identify as straight. So, but they're queer in their transness. You know what I mean? And then it starts like that's when it starts getting almost like conf and she's like, and I don't think you should have to like how first of all, like, how do you validate that? You're not gonna be like, pull down your pants, let me see what you got going on. You know what I mean? Like you it so, and even if someone is not trans, they're just straight. How do you say, like, someone could say that to me, like, okay, you're gonna try to go to this party, like you look pretty fucking straight to me. If I was not with you, if I didn't show up with you, yeah, you know, so it's like, do you have you just have to like again prove your gayness? Well, you can't get in. And that is something I didn't think about before. It's like, yes, how do you even check that?
Speaker 1:You can't, and also it's like it's the same thing, it's like queer camp. It's like the people who are wanting to go to these spaces are queer in the mind, anyways. Like, I'm just like, they're not gonna nobody wants to go to a gay bar unless they're like, I love gay people and I want to be around gay people. Do you know what I mean? Like, they're gonna be cool in some way.
Speaker 2:I well, I do think there's there's weirdos everywhere. And I yeah, but that's just not the majority of people, not the majority for sure.
Speaker 1:But and if they act weird, they get thrown out. Right. If you've ever been to a gay bar, any bar, by the way. No, no, I'm just saying, but especially gay bars, if you do something, anything remotely weird, you get thrown out so fast if you're straight, right? So fast. That does not happen at straight bars in the same way. Guys can be assholes for so long before they ever get kicked out of a bar. That does not happen at gay bars. Right. People get thrown out so fast.
Speaker 2:Well, that's also a good solution. Yeah. But but yeah, I want to put up another poll after people listen to the episode and just see. But I would imagine it would be probably similar where it's like, yeah, sometimes I I'm in the sometimes camp where it's like, I think sometimes.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't say because you were in you were in the never camp. And I was like, honey, you can't say that.
Speaker 2:I don't think I said never. I don't think that's true. I was just saying I understand why specifically lesbians wouldn't want men in their space. Because I feel it's less that I'm more clear in the mind, I'm more of a feminist than you. I think is what it is. Yes. And that's what I get more protective over. So I'm like that, I can understand. I can understand if you're like, I wanted to go to an all-women space, and now there's dudes here, and I don't want that because that feels unsafe to me. Most women, if they say that the percentage is like 70% or something, I think it is damn near 100% of women have experienced some sort of sexual assault. You know, probably close to 100% of that 100%, it's been from other men, you know, or not other men, but been from men, not from a woman. So this is why like we feel threatened around men in course.
Speaker 3:I get it.
Speaker 2:So it's like that was more what I was like, I can understand why people wouldn't want that. I get it, you know, and that also means there's there's plenty of straight dudes who are not predators, who are totally fine, who are good people. I know that exists too. Yeah, we want to hear from you guys. And then we want to hear from you guys about this because this is a serious This is a hot topic. This is this is the biggest who's the problem we've ever had. And we have the same who's the problem. Well, yeah, we're gonna, it's gonna be a little debate because it's gonna let me give the context.
Speaker 1:I I want to give the context.
Speaker 2:I'm sure you do.
Speaker 1:I want to give the backstory.
Speaker 2:I'm giving the backstory at first. But let me start it now.
unknown:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, yes, because I'm gonna start.
Speaker 2:Okay, so at home in California. This does not help your case. I'm just letting you know.
Speaker 1:We you can try all the different roles in our house. We've talked about this sometimes, I think. Like I take out the garbage, and you know, there's certain things that you do, like you vacuum the house. Irrelevant, Your Honor. And one of the things that you do is you wash our towels every week. Yes, I do the laundry. Yeah. There's like on set days, you have like you're like, on this day we wash the dogs' towels and blankets. On this day's we watch our wash our towels, okay? And so on those days, you take all of our towels, including mine, and you wash them.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's the backdrop.
Speaker 2:So none of that matters, by the way. But it was it was a nice try. It was a very cute attempt, but let me continue. So here in Nicaragua, one thing you should know is that we are never clean, never truly clean.
Speaker 1:No, you're always out of the shower.
Speaker 2:First of all, we are on the ocean. So even and we have a well, our water is still a little salty, and you get out and you immediately have to put sunscreen and bug spray on. So you just like you're just never clean, really. You know, it's like that, and it's perfect. We love it. This is the way we love to live. So all of our towels, because we live, we have a house here, but we also have our hotel. All of our towels are white because that's a very like hotel look is white. They are disgusting, okay? Because we have when you clean, it's there's the stuff that comes off of you, even after you've soaked in the shower, it's just like you're just still dirty. You're just dirty. So your towels physically like you can see it because they're stark white. Our towels at home are chocolate brown, okay?
Speaker 1:For that reason.
Speaker 2:We really should have chocolate brown towels here. Yeah. Well, I mean, if only, if only we could get something that simple. But um, so same thing. We wash, I don't we have a housekeeper here, and she washes the towels the same day every week as well. I noticed last year, and this is the funny part, is I brought it up to you where I was like, oh, my towel is so gross. Like, I feel like I need a new towel more than once a week because at home it feels totally normal once a week. Fine. Yeah. And you're like, then swap it out more than once a week. Like, who cares? Just put it in the laundry basket and wash more than one set of towels. And I was like, Yeah, like why didn't I ever think of that? My towel looks dirty. I don't need to wait until washing day to change it. So I and I mine tends to look dirtier because I use tinted sunscreen. And so you can see that come off sometimes on the towel. So my towel, so I, since last year you said that, started switching my towel out more frequently than just once a week. I assumed that you would be responsible for your own hygiene.
Speaker 1:Okay, but in all previous seasons that we've been here, when you swapped your towel out, you would swap mine out. You would do that every single week.
Speaker 2:Because we only did it once on the washing day. But I started swapping mine out more, it didn't matter when the washing day was. I did it when I saw that I physically or when I felt disgusted by myself and needed a new towel.
Speaker 1:I understand. But you would still swap my towel out once a week.
Speaker 2:No, I didn't. Yes, you did. Okay, well we have no way to prove this, but I anyways. I and your towel would never be as dirty as mine, so I'm not swapping yours as frequently as mine because I am more disgusting, okay? And I obviously, so the other night or day, it was the day, I'm in the shower and your towel is hanging right.
Speaker 1:And I'm talking to you.
Speaker 2:You're talking to me in the shower, and I'm like, honey, your towel is really disgusting. Like, I think you need to change it. It was yellow. The whole towel was so disgusting. And I was like, Did it look like you had self-tanner and then like dried yourself after? I was like, what is on your towel? It's like it was like yellow, and it was so much of it. It wasn't just like little spots of like, oh, a little dirt behind the ear or something. Like, I it I was like, What you need to change your towel? And you're like, I thought it, you're like, Yeah, I felt like it was dirty too, but like, do you still wash them once a week? And I was like, Yeah. And you're like, okay, because I thought mine was dirty too. And I was like, hold on, hold on. Have you changed your towel since we've been here? We have been there for four weeks. Four weeks, and you're like, no, you changed the towels. And I was like, oh my, I like literally wanted to gag. I like, I was just like, put it on the floor. I was like, no, we can't even wash whatever is wrong with this towel at this point. It has to be thrown over. This needs to be burned. Like, this is not okay. I was like, so you're telling me if I didn't tell you right now, if I didn't say, hey, your towel's nasty, you should change it. You would have been, you would have just used it. We're gonna be here for five months.
Speaker 1:I had thought a few times, like, my towel seems dirty. I wonder, like, if she changed it. And then the next like a couple days later, I'd be like, she must have changed it though, right? Like it's been a few more days. Like I she would have swapped it out.
Speaker 2:My question is, why do I have all of the power over your hygiene?
Speaker 1:Even if my question is, why did you stop swapping my towel out? I think I'm doing it for six years. I just explained why. I just don't. Yes, I did. That just happened. Last year, you changed your towel out two to three times a week. You would still change mine out one to two times a week. I've never done it twice. This year you just stopped doing it and never said anything to me.
Speaker 2:Because I believe you are almost 40 and you are responsible for your own hygiene. So I don't swap. Okay, Thursdays are the days we wash towels. Still, I don't take my towel on Thursday and put it in the hamper because I've already changed it.
Speaker 1:So I know you don't, but you used to swap mine when you swapped yours. Why did you stop and not tell me? Okay, it it literally doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:Who is the problem? The point I think you are the problem. I know that you do, and that's what's so sad is that you would live in your own filth for five months while we're here and still blame me instead of being like, you saw a yellow stain down your towel, and you thought, Well, I better wait for my wife to swap it for me, otherwise, I'm not allowed a new one. Meanwhile, the view from our shower, approximately five-I know that I'm allowed a new one. I just was like, I she'll she's she'll swap it. But when I look at mine and I'm disgusted by it, I change it. That's the thing, like you can see the stack of towels in our closet from the shower. There's just this gleaming stack of white towels there. You could have just gone and grabbed a new one. When I put the fresh towel next to yours, it was so we had to throw it away.
Speaker 1:It's not something that can ever be cleaned.
Speaker 2:And instead of being like, yeah, I should have, I should have changed.
Speaker 1:So I've been discussing for the last four weeks, like nasty.
Speaker 2:So who's the problem? Should Alex be responsible for her own, or am I the problem for not communicating that I stopped swapping hers?
Speaker 1:I think you know what.
Speaker 2:You can't even say it with a straight face. You can't even say it with a straight face. You just dropped your role and never told me. The people will decide. The people will decide. Whatever. Decide right, you guys. You guys better support me. So, anyways, we love you guys, and we will see you next week.
unknown:Bye.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to the show. We're so happy to have you here. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you're listening to podcasts. We love getting commentary from you on Spotify and on YouTube. And as always, if you love this episode or any of our episodes, make sure to share it with a friend or somebody who will appreciate the conversation.
Speaker 1:And make sure to follow us on all our socials at WivesNot Sisters Pod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Thanks, guys. See you next week.