E 239 Parenting Adopted and Foster Kids While Managing Anxiety and Trauma

 Are you a foster or adoptive parent struggling to support your child through anxiety and trauma? In this episode, I sit down with Bonnie Butler, a certified life coach and mother of ten—six of whom she adopted after fostering them. Bonnie shares her powerful journey, the challenges of parenting children who have experienced trauma, and practical strategies for helping kids navigate anxiety.

💡 In this episode, we discuss:
✔️ The unique struggles foster and adoptive parents face
✔️ How trauma impacts a child’s anxiety and emotional well-being
✔️ The biggest mistakes parents make and how to avoid them
✔️ Bonnie’s expert strategies for creating a supportive home environment

🚀 Don't miss Bonnie’s upcoming summit for parents! Gain expert guidance on how to help your child manage anxiety and emotional struggles.

🎧 Listen to the full conversation and get actionable insights today!

👍 If you found this helpful, give it a like, subscribe for more episodes, and share it with other parents who need this support!

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Email Bonnie:   bonnie@bonniebutlercoaching.com
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 Struggling with anxiety in your family? If anxiety is causing tension, fights, or disconnect in your home, you don’t have to face it alone. I help parents bring more peace, confidence, and connection to their families. Let’s talk—schedule a free consultation today or email me: ccoufal@cynthiacoufalcoaching.com

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Transcript

Hi everyone. Thank you for joining me for the Teen Anxiety Maze today. Do you wonder what emotional hygiene is or what, why that would even matter? Well, today I have a guest with us, Bonnie Butler, and she is the owner and CEO bonnie Butler Coaching, and she is a certified life coach and a speaker dedicated to helping individuals cultivate inner peace.

And unshakeable confidence. We all need that. She specializes in foster and adoptive parenting and we're gonna have some conversations about that. But she also helps with life transitions, which we have many of those in our lifetime. She empowers her clients with tools to overcome challenges, master their thoughts and lead fulfilling lives.

So Bonnie, thank you for being with us today. 

Bonnie Butler: Thank you. You're welcome. I'm great. I'm glad to be here. 

Cynthia: Well, let's start with this emotional [00:01:00] hygiene. What does it mean? What I mean, it could probably mean a lot of things, but what does it mean in your coaching or what you do? 

Bonnie Butler: So for me, my definition of emotional hygiene, I.

Is a daily check-in with your thoughts and your emotions. Mm-hmm. And just like you brush your teeth every day, or at least I hope you do, and you take care of your personal hygiene and bathing and keeping your body clean and you know, keeping your clothing neat and tidy, we need. To check on our emotions, and we need to check in with our thoughts and see how things are going.

So for me, what I teach my clients is that emotional hygiene and watching and keeping track of what's happening in that area of your life is every bit as important as brushing your teeth and taking showers and being clean. So dental, hygiene, personal hygiene and emotional hygiene all pull together to help us have a healthier life.

Cynthia: Mm. I love that. I have done, I did an [00:02:00] episode once too about mental health maintenance. You know, we go to the doctor once a year for a physical, but do we really spend time thinking about our mental health? And so I did kind of a thing too where, what can you do daily? What can you do monthly? You know, all those things.

So I love that because it is so important. Now you have a really interesting story about how you came to be at least a coach for foster and adoptive family. So tell us about kinda your background and why you got into this. I. 

Bonnie Butler: So I am a mom of 10 and four of those are biological kids and six of them are adopted.

They are one sibling group that all came to us at the same time. We did foster care for a period of four years. And we fostered 17 kids over that four year period. And this sibling group of six was the last foster placement that we took into our home, and they were placed with us as foster to adopt. The plan was if it all worked out, that we would keep those kids.

So [00:03:00] at that point we're like, okay, the foster door has to close because we can't. Keep having more kids come in if these six are gonna stay. Mm-hmm. So we took on that challenge and adopted those six kids and began the most rewarding and challenging years of my life. 

Cynthia: Yes, I bet. 

Bonnie Butler: Trying to, navigate that and navigate that maze.

And we didn't have, we had some training, but I really did not have the training that I needed to take care of these kids who had been abused and traumatized in so many different ways. And so I was kind of flying by the seat of my pants, trying to figure everything out. And it's really hard sometimes when you.

You open your home and your heart and your family to help these kids, and then they're with you and you can't even begin to figure out what their needs are, much less meet those needs. Mm-hmm. And so that journey of figuring out how do I meet these kids' needs and how I [00:04:00] figure out what they are. It took a toll on me personally and on my health because I wasn't taking care of myself as well as I should have been, and the chaos of all of that going on.

And I had four teenagers in the house. Well, three, one of them had graduated and so they were going through their own teenage stuff, which you work with teenagers a lot, so you understand that. So we had all that combined chaos going on. By the time the kids were old enough and they were out of the house, I really was kind of a mess.

Mm-hmm. I was like, okay, I gotta figure out me and figure out, you know, how to do things a little bit better. And over the years of parenting, I had really learned some things and learned some tools to help me. Handle situations that came up with my kids on a much better level, especially by the youngest.

You know how it goes. You've got 10 kids and the first ones you're just trial and error with everything. Mm-hmm. And by the 10th when you've learned a few things and so you're getting a [00:05:00] little bit better about figuring things out and how to parent a little bit more effectively. So. Over the course of time after the kids were grown, I just was working with foster and adoptive parents all the time and really seeing the struggle that they were having that I had been through.

Mm-hmm. And helping them to know that there's hope, there's light at the end of the tunnel, that there is a way that you can find inner peace and you can actually find joy. In the middle of total chaos and the challenge. And so my goal, because I missed out on so many of those joyous moments because I was so caught in the chaos of trying to handle everything and trying to handle it all myself, that I missed a lot of that joy and a lot of those flashes of light that come.

So my goal is to help other foster and adoptive parents understand and learn tools and techniques so that they can be a more effective parent, [00:06:00] and they don't miss out on those flashes of light and those moments of just absolute joy in the middle of some really hard and troubling and chaotic times.

And you know, it definitely was not my life plan, but it is where life took me and I am so grateful for the journey that I've been on, and I'm really grateful for where I'm at now with all 10 of my kids. And we just had a family reunion this summer. All 10 kids were there for the first time in 10 and a half years, we had all 10 of our kids together with seven of the spouses, 24 of our 27 grandkids.

Mm-hmm. And we just had three days of healing and love and laughter and fun and re bonding and building new connections. And I just feel like that was just like my reward for not giving up on all the hard stuff that happened over the years. And what I've really seen. Is the more I [00:07:00] understand my own tools and the things that I teach, and the more I implement those in my life and as I was learning them and starting to really change myself and learn, then that flows out to my kids.

When I become calmer, my kids become calmer. And the beauty for me now is over the last couple of years I have watched as my kids have started reaching out to each other. To heal those connections and heal those wounds from the past. Because there were a lot of burned bridges between the adopted kids and the biological kids.

And, you know, 25 years later, I keep hoping we're gonna become one family bonded. But there's, you know, there's still little bit of that us and them left in there. It's. Getting smoothed out. Mm-hmm. But really, I mean, there were some tough, tough things that happened and some really hard things. And you know, for a long time these two kids won't talk to that kid and this one won't ever talk to me.

And you know, you name it, it just happens. And those happen in biological families [00:08:00] as well, but there's just a different layer and a different set of complications and complexities that you're working with. Mm-hmm. With foster and adoptive kids. And so for me to sit back and see. How my kids are reaching out and reconnecting with each other and healing those wounds and coming together this summer was just such a beautiful thing and it just, you know, that's.

What we all hope for, right? That we can get together as a family and we can all be in the same room at the same time and just have fun together and just find that joy and that piece. And so that's my goal in becoming a coach. And I kind of came in through the back door. I didn't really have a big, strong desire, oh, I'm gonna go teach this to everybody I know.

Mm-hmm. Even though I could see the difference in my own life. But I did feel very led and guided to it and felt about three or four years ago. A really intense, strong impression that I needed to actually formally become a coach instead of just kind of [00:09:00] doing unconsciously and just helping people without, you know, any real intent.

And that I needed to be more focused. That I really have some skills and some tools that can help people. And so I went through the process to become certified and started my business, and I've had a few different. Transitions of the business and where I'm at now and you know, really, but I absolutely, I love working with these families and I am passionate, passionate about helping foster and adoptive parents because of my own journey through that and how hard it was and just helping them to know that they're our tools that you can use personally.

That will help you to get out of your own tangled up mess. 'cause it's really hard to be an effective parent when you're caught up in your own emotional mess going on and you haven't cleaned that up. Mm-hmm. So we can help these parents clean up their emotional hygiene, understand thought management, and the [00:10:00] connection between our thoughts and our emotions.

Mm-hmm. Then as they start practicing those things and they start calming down and regulating themselves, they model that for their kids. Plus they can teach those tools to their kids, and then we just have a much better hope for our future for these kids that they will actually have a much better shot when we can get their parents on a stronger foundation.

Cynthia: Well, I just think what a better person to do it because you have lived it. I do think, you know, I worked in the education system, so I know. You know, the struggles that parents would tell me about in having foster and adoptive adopted kids, but, and I could see the struggles, but I don't think unless you live it and have it in your home, you do not know exactly what all that's about and how that works.

And I don't think there's enough education for people who want to get into fostering and, and adopting kids. I think [00:11:00] they are in such desperate need of someone to do it, that they're just like. You know, come in right now and we'll tell you about it later, and then they don't have time to tell you. And so I'm just so glad that, that you're doing it and really what you're talking about.

I mean, good parenting in general is these things. And we all struggle a little bit with our own work that we need to do as we're trying to raise kids. And I didn't even realize there was work I needed to do until I had kids, and then I'm like, oh, I have problems. I don't know. So there's just like so many layers to this, but I'm so glad that you're doing it and it's just so needed.

So I, I think we've. We didn't talk about it on this the recorded part, but you were saying that there isn't enough education for these families to even know what they're getting into. 

Bonnie Butler: There's really not. And I see there's a movement in that direction. Mm. But really what we're fighting for at this point is to have all [00:12:00] foster and adoptive parents trauma informed and have them trauma trained before the kids come into their home.

Mm-hmm. Because you can't. Parent, like I, I thought I was a pretty good parent with my biological kids. You know? They were doing well. They were doing well in school, doing well in life. They were managing things. I mean, we had all the normal ups and downs, right? Sure. Of a family and parents and teenagers.

And the foster kids that we had had come through the house had done really pretty well. And we've been able to get them on pretty stable foundations and functioning well. So I kind of came into this. Option when they called and asked me would I be willing to adopt these six kids. Mm-hmm. And I know there wasn't a mirror on the wall, but I'm sure my face was like, you want me to what?

But, you know, I, I felt like I was. Confident in my parenting. I'm like, all right, well, I'm doing okay as a parent. You know, I'm, [00:13:00] everybody's maintaining and we're all doing reasonably well, and sure I can help six more kids. And I didn't really anticipate the wave that was gonna just roll right in. You know, not only.

They were traumatized. I mean, these kids have been through almost every abuse that you can imagine, and we were not aware of that, and the social workers were not even aware of that because as much as we want the social workers to know everything about the children they place with us, they just can't.

Mm-hmm. You know, oftentimes the kids do not talk about what's really been happening to them because they don't feel safe. So until they feel safe with you, they don't open up about what they've been through. And the social workers know some of what they've been through, obviously because they've been pulled from the home for specific reasons.

Mm-hmm. But they often don't know the depth of what has happened. And, and with our kids, the oldest had been in [00:14:00] nine different foster homes and she was 10. And so just the constant back and forth with mom and dad and then pulled out and then back and then pulled out, and it wreaks havoc, you know, on these kids and their ability to feel safe.

Mm-hmm. And so we had no idea the trauma that they had been exposed to, but over that first year, they moved in with us in June, right after school got out, and that summer. Was total insanity, just everything exploding right and left and trying to manage all of these different behaviors and not understanding what was triggering this behavior or that behavior.

And you know, with your biological kids, you've been with them and for the most part, you know, if something's upsetting them, why it's upsetting them, what experience is leading to that. But these kids are a blank slate. You don't have any idea what happened to them for the last eight years of their life.

And so we thought by the end of summer, we thought [00:15:00] things were calming a little bit. We got into school. And it just escalated because they had learning disabilities. They were fetal alcohol exposed, they were fetal drug exposed. And so they were all way behind academically, and they were also behind developmentally.

And so their chronological age was one thing, but developmentally. They were anywhere from five to seven years behind that chronological age. Mm. So being put in that pool, you're just like dropped in the deep end, and whether it's one child or six children, unless you have some background and trauma, unless you have some training in how to help these kids manage their own emotions, you're just.

Drowning. And by the end of the first year, I had zero confidence left in my sense, in my ability to parent any child. And it was like, what on earth was I thinking and why? You know, why did I do this? And [00:16:00] so that's kind of my starting point when I'm working with foster and adoptive parents, is understanding your why.

Mm-hmm. Why do you want to do this? Why are you looking at doing this? And I have what I call a why web, which I gave you the link for that. That's my freebie. To anchor your why, to know and understand why you want to do this, and dig deep and you know, just create that web. I don't know if you're familiar with why webs or not.

I'm not. It's a way to really anchor in the reasons that you want to do something, and then when it gets hard, you just go reread. Those reasons, and it helps get you through some of these hard times. But realistically, these parents need to be trauma informed before these kids come in their house. 

Cynthia: I love that.

Do you think a lot of the reason why they're not, because I'm sure that the foster care system knows that this is important. Yeah. Is it because [00:17:00] it's just how do they, you know. Do this in, in a time where they need a family right now, but that family hasn't been trained. And then they just are kinda like, well just do it tonight and we'll figure it out.

And then it just doesn't get done because there's not enough people and there's not enough maybe money to pay people. They'll do this. 

Bonnie Butler: I think money and resources are a big part of it because when you become a foster parent or when you want to, unless you're doing a private adoption through a private agency with lawyers, if you're doing a public adoption through your county, there are training classes that you are required to take.

And so there are things that you are taught. Through that process, but dealing with the depth of trauma and how to actually parent traumatized kids effectively isn't, hasn't been a part of that. And I, there is a shift in that and they are [00:18:00] working towards that. But one of the biggest difficulties. Is attachment issues.

Mm-hmm. And you know, how, how are these kids supposed to attach to somebody when they're constantly being pulled and pulled and you know, moved here and moved there and moved everywhere. And the people who are supposed to be keeping them safe, their biological parents are often the ones that are exposing them to.

The most complex and difficult situations that are wreaking havoc for them. Mm-hmm. And so if they can't trust their biological parents to keep them safe, how do they trust this person who, you know, somebody else picked for them and said, here, you're gonna live in this home now for this period of time.

And, and so many times I see these foster parents just drowning, you know? And then, mm-hmm. Difficult things start happening in their home because they cannot manage. Or you have one parent who really wanted to do this and one parent who didn't really wanna do it, but [00:19:00] okay. You know, they'll go along with it.

And then you have this divisiveness happening. And so the kids on top of all of the stuff they've already been exposed to, are now in a home where. These parents are feeling insecure about what's happening in their home and not understanding how to manage the kids and how to manage behavior and where to get help.

Mm-hmm. And traditional therapy isn't always helpful for these kids. Mm-hmm. They really need trauma informed therapists to work with and to work with the family to keep things intact and so, mm-hmm. I think a lot of it comes down to having the resources available, having enough trauma informed therapists who can then work with the social workers and get the social workers through trauma training, and then blow that down to the parents so that the parents can become trauma trained.

Because a lot of the social workers are not even trained with trauma therapy and so 

Cynthia: well, [00:20:00] especially if they've been in it for a while. 'cause that wasn't even a thing for forever. Right. Yeah. So do you have a specific amount of time that you work with families? Do you just work with them as long as they need you?

How and how do they get ahold of you? 

Bonnie Butler: So they can get ahold of me either through my website, which is bonnie butler coaching.com, or I'm on Instagram and I have a Facebook business page and they can just reach out to me, bonnie@bonniebutlercoaching.com is my email. Or they can go to my website and they can just click the link to set up a free call.

I do a free consultation with all the parents as a starting point to see is this a good fit to. Are we gonna be able to work together well, and I start out, I have a 12 week transformational program. And so originally that's our starting point mm-hmm. Is a 12 week transformational program. And we do a deep [00:21:00] dive into their specific issues.

So it's not a cookie cutter program. Mm-hmm. And I do have. Probably 20 to 25 tools that I use to teach them, right? But when you start, it's not like, well, week one we're gonna learn tool number one. And week two we're gonna learn. When they come to the session, they come to me with what are they struggling with this week and how can we address what they're struggling with this week?

Which tool is the best tool to help them? Learn to manage and cope with what's happening right now this week. Mm-hmm. And then at the end of the 12 weeks, we assess. How far they've come over the 12 weeks and if they want to continue or if they feel like over that 12 weeks, they feel like, okay, I'm on solid foundation now and then I do a lot of, I mean, I'll, if they call me and say, Hey, I just need a session, I am happy to do [00:22:00] that.

Once they've done that 12 week program, then they can come back and just kind of do a refresher session. If they're really finding themselves struggling again, they've lost sight of their tools and need somebody to just, okay, let's. Refresh, let's pull these tools back up and review them and use them again.

So it's really a deeply personalized program to the family that I'm working with in that session. 

Cynthia: Hmm, I love that. And you don't have any barriers about what state they live in or anything like that? Like anybody from anywhere can work with you. Perfect. Yeah. Well, I will put all of that information in the show notes so people can find you if they need to, to reach out and your, your web of why is that what you or your why? Web. Web 

Bonnie Butler: anchoring your why? I love it. So you wanna anchor in why you wanna do this. And that is for me, I mean that really, it helped me understand a lot of things about [00:23:00] myself. Why I do the things I do and what I hope to gain from it. Right? But it also, some of those, there are days when I'll still go back, okay, what was I thinking?

Why did I wanna do this? You know? And you just go back and you review. That why web? And you just look at your reasons for doing it. And are those reasons still good enough to keep you in it? Do you need deeper reasons? Do you need more work on that? Why web? Mm-hmm. And just really anchoring in if you know and understand why you want to do this, and you really look at it and assess it.

I find that some people will just, they start digging into that why? And they're like. Maybe I don't wanna do this. Yes. Maybe this isn't the right thing for me. And so that's really helpful in clarifying that. Mm-hmm. But if you dig in and this is what you wanna do mm-hmm. That anchors in so that when it gets hard and it will get hard.

Yeah. Then you have that anchor that you can return back to, okay, I'm doing this [00:24:00] because X, Y, Z. Mm-hmm. And that is still valid and that renews that desire to stay in and to help these kids. And to help these parents. Mm-hmm. Because they have such a deep desire and their goals are good and their hearts open and good.

And so we just getting them the confidence that you can really do this, you really can do this. And. 

Cynthia: It sounds like that web is something that people could use for anything that they're wanting to do. Oh, yeah. Why do I wanna exercise? Why do I wanna eat? Right, exactly. Why do I wanna have a business? Why do I wanna have a podcast?

I need to look at the Y web about why I wanna do a lot of things. So that would be good. Like p anybody can use this mm-hmm. Tool to help them figure out even if they're not in this particular situation. Yes. I thought of one other question and it was about, oh my gosh, I hate it when this happens to me.

I'm in midlife and so my brain doesn't always work the way I would like it to. I think it had to do with I, I cannot think of it and I don't wanna try to go [00:25:00] around and around to try to find it. Is, is there anything else that you would like the listeners to know about you or about what you're doing or anything else?

Bonnie Butler: I think probably the most important thing is, especially you work with teens who have anxiety issues, right? Mm-hmm. And so working with those teens and working with those parents, I'm sure that you see how emotional regulation can really help with that anxiety. Mm-hmm. And so a lot of the tools. That I teach and a lot of the tools that I use help with all of the different emotions on the spectrum.

And I mean, let's face it there. You can't begin to name all of the different emotionals, right, right. And, but look up an emotion wheel on the web and find an emotion wheel and just really start putting words to what those feelings are and start, you know, really identifying. What your feelings are and knowing that [00:26:00] your thoughts are creating those feelings.

Mm-hmm. And so maybe that's one of the most important things, I think, is understanding the connection between our thoughts and our emotions. They're tied together. One creates the other. But the flow through of that is we act out of our emotions, right? Mm-hmm. And then our results come from our actions.

And so when we are able to manage our thoughts and we have emotional regulation, it just allows us this inner peace and the ability to actually find joy in the middle of total chaos. Mm-hmm. And to. Be okay. You know, you can find yourself in the middle of some of the most complicated and difficult circumstances, but you can feel inner peace in the midst of that chaotic circumstance.

And that is such a beautiful place to be. Mm-hmm. And you can actually see, you know, just shafts of light and sparks of joy in the middle of really complicated and difficult things. So [00:27:00] taking the time every day. To work on your emotional help and your emotional hygiene just has such broad. Benefits to it.

Cynthia: I think it's the secret to everything. 

Bonnie Butler: Yeah. 

Cynthia: So whether you're in this situation or any situation mm-hmm. Being able to do that is amazing and that's why I wanted to teach it to young people because I thought, oh my gosh, I. All the suffering I did for so many years about nothing. Like I could have changed all of this so quickly and I didn't know it.

So I definitely want them to know, I think what I, I, I thought of what I was gonna say to you. Okay. So when you were talking about when you talked to a family and their why might be like, oh, wait a minute. I don't think my why is. I don't think this is really what I want to be doing. I would guess that then you could even then be coaching them on the guilt they probably feel, or the shame they feel by like not wanting to do it or not.

[00:28:00] Not feeling like that's That's a strong enough why for them. Yeah, because I know, and that's one of those 

Bonnie Butler: transitional things, right? Yeah. That I work with them into that transition and really understanding that it is okay. Yeah. And one of the most critical, critical things that foster and adoptive parents can know about themselves is what they can and cannot.

Handle. Yeah. And when you start into this process and they start giving you the information about the kids and their behaviors and the things that they do know, you really, it is vital that you know where your lines are and where your boundaries are. And so for those, like we had several friends when we started doing foster care, we had several friends who had never fostered.

I had one who said to me, oh, I would never foster. You're just taking on other people's problems when you foster. Yeah. Well, then a year later, she and her husband are fostering. Right. And in the end it didn't work out. It wasn't a good [00:29:00] fit for them. Yeah. And of the three or four friends that we had that started fostering because we started fostering none of them.

Stuck with it, they all mm-hmm. You know, and at back at that point, I didn't know anything about anchoring your Y and having a Y web, or maybe prevented some of the heartache for them. Mm-hmm. Because it was complicated as they had to step out and say, I just can't, I can't do that. But there's really, and that's, you know, you're so right.

Working on those thoughts about that mm-hmm. And changing your story. Right. Because we can't, mm-hmm. Change the circumstances in our life, but we can change the story we tell ourselves about those circumstances. Mm-hmm. And so when they're telling themselves that they're not good enough or they're less than, or they're comparing themselves because they couldn't do what we were doing, we really, it's so important to get out of that.

Yes. And just. Get out of that negative spiral because nothing good is gonna come from that. Mm-hmm. And there are really understanding that our [00:30:00] thoughts are not a facts, right? Mm-hmm. They're just thoughts. And we have an option to choose a different thought. And you know, you and I talked a little bit before and I shared one of my favorite quotes, which is, you can't stop a bird from landing on your head.

But you can prevent it from building a nest there. Mm-hmm. And it's that way with our thoughts. We can't stop negative thoughts from coming, but we can certainly prevent them from building this entire ball in our life and becoming this tangled up mess. We don't, we don't have to hang onto them and, yeah.

You know, one of my other favorite kind of tools that I teach is, you know, would you go into a store, just walk over to the rack and pick an item of clothing up, go pay for it, bring it home, and put it in your closet. Mm-hmm. Without even checking the size. Or do you like the color? Do you have anything you're gonna wear that with?

Does it suit you? Do you, is it 

Cynthia: itchy?

Bonnie Butler: And yet we do that with our thoughts. 

Cynthia: [00:31:00] Yeah. 

Bonnie Butler: Thought comes in our head and we think, oh, it's there. I have to hang onto it. Right? Yeah. I encourage them to do spring cleaning. Mm-hmm. We spring clean our houses, we spring clean our closets and get rid of things that don't fit anymore, that don't work and don't serve us well anymore.

And we really need to do that with our thoughts as well. Mm-hmm. Is just do some house cleaning and housekeeping with our thoughts and you know, sometimes we just need to step back and look at our self-talk and our thoughts and is that serving me? And if it's not. Let's work on letting it go, and I can teach you the tools on how to do that.

So 

Cynthia: yes, I love that. Oh, that was life changing for me in my life. And so I definitely want other people to know that stuff too. Well, Bonnie, I'm so glad you're with us today and I encourage all the families to contact you if they're struggling with any of these. Things, sounds like really anything that they are transitioning with.

Yeah, but I really do think that the foster and adoptive parents really need some help. And so [00:32:00] if a listener is one of those parents, this is a body's a great resource for you, somebody who can help you through that. Or if you know someone, I mean, I've, I knew lots of families who were trying that and sometimes really struggling.

So I'm glad that you are out there doing that work 'cause it's so important. 

Bonnie Butler: Thank you so much for having me on and giving me the opportunity to share what I do and to hopefully have an impact on not just so your listeners, but other people that they are aware of that might be in need of that help. So I appreciate you bringing me on and giving me an opportunity to talk about what I love.

Cynthia: You're welcome.