E248 How to Have a Good Divorce That Supports Your Kids

 Divorce doesn’t have to damage your kids. In this episode, certified divorce coach and therapist Karen McNenny shares how divorced parents can reduce anxiety in children by improving communication, building co-parenting strategies, and creating stability across two homes. Whether you're going through a divorce or supporting families who are, you’ll learn practical tips to protect your child’s mental health and emotional well-being.

🔹 What causes anxiety in kids during divorce
🔹 How to avoid putting children in the middle
🔹 Simple co-parenting hacks that reduce stress
🔹 Why consistency between homes matters
🔹 How to reframe divorce as a family renovation

👩‍⚖️ Karen McNenny is the creator of The Good Divorce Experience and host of The Good Divorce Show. Learn more about her work and resources at The Good Divorce Coach.


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 Struggling with anxiety in your family? If anxiety is causing tension, fights, or disconnect in your home, you don’t have to face it alone. I help parents bring more peace, confidence, and connection to their families. Let’s talk—schedule a free consultation today or email me: ccoufal@cynthiacoufalcoaching.com

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Transcript

 Hi. I wanted to just record something a little bit before this interview today because I miss talking to you and I do, I'm doing just all interviews right now because I have so many beautiful people I want you to meet and I want you to still be able to find out about all these people doing the good work, but I also wanna be able to touch base with you a little bit.

So this episode is gonna be so good for all parents because it really makes you think about how as co-parents, how you're parenting your children. Now this episode happens to be about how do divorced parents, co-parent and this Karen McNenney. The guest in this episode is a divorce coach, which is amazing and I wish I even knew there was such a thing when I got divorced, but I.

She's also been divorced. She ha she tells a little bit about that and how she best helps families with that particular [00:01:00] part of a transition in case you happen to be in that. But even if you're not divorced, I think there's some really good stuff in here. So, and especially if you're an educator, people who work with families this could maybe help you navigate some of that with families when you're working with them.

I am also doing a parent workshop on Thursday, June 19th, and it's at noon central time and this parenting workshop. Is for parents who are together navigating the different parenting styles you might have. It could be for people who are co-parenting as divorced parents. It could be for all sorts of, it could be for grandparents.

Now, I grandparents aren't my audience because I'm a grandparent and I'm struggling with this as a grandparent, figuring out my parenting, my grandparenting style with my husband. There's like so many. Ways you can use that workshop. [00:02:00] And so right now just find the link in the show notes or on social media where, because I'm gonna be advertising it everywhere, go to my website and sign up for this parenting styles workshop because you're going to learn what are the parenting styles, what kinds of differences they make in raising children and how that affects the kids as well as the the parents.

And also ways to help you work together as a team, which is what we want, which makes things so much nicer. So I thought this episode's just gonna be a good, I. Fit for what is already happening in my business, but I wanted you to know that this is happening and that I miss Solo talking to you, and I'm gonna find different ways in order to do that so I can get through all of my guests in a timely fashion, but also talk to you too.

So contact me and let me know different topics you still [00:03:00] would like to know about or ways that I can help you. And I hope to see you at my workshop.

Hi everyone. Thank you for joining me for the Teen Anxiety Maze. Have you ever heard someone describe a family as broken and wondered? Is there a better way to say that? If you could create a magic rule that would make co-parenting or family transitions easier. What would it be? What's your go-to hack for keeping Mittens, shoes and sanity in two different homes?

Well, today we're gonna dive into those questions to see much more about with someone who's redefining what it means to navigate divorce. Karen McNenney is a certified divorce coach. Mediator and therapist with over 25 years of experience. She's also the host of The Good Divorce Show, a TEDx speaker, and the [00:04:00] creator of the Good Divorce experience.

Karen's here to share her unique perspective on transforming divorce from conflict into compassion, and helping families thrive even after the ink on the paper is dry. Let's welcome Karen McNenney. 

Karen McNenney: Hi Cynthia, and hello to your audience. Thank you so much for setting aside this time to chat with me.

Cynthia: Sure. Well, divorce is not something that we've talked a lot about on my program. And of course it's out there and it creates anxiety not only for the young people in the, and the children in the home, but for the parents as well. And so since my podcast has an audience of all sorts of people and, and also educators who are working with families who are going through this.

Transition. This is the perfect topic for us. So I think it's hard to imagine somebody that wants to hang out with people who are getting divorced because it doesn't really sound like a lot of fun. So, so [00:05:00] tell us like, why did you wanna get into this and how did you get into it? Sure. 

Karen McNenney: The, the short of it is that I'm a divorce survivor, 13 years and at the time of my own divorce, I was one of those people who was really honestly paralyzed by the idea of divorce.

It. It seemed better to stay in the bad marriage than to go through this destructive fire storm and end up as enemies with the father of my child. 

Cynthia: Or 

Karen McNenney: children at the end of it I, that I could not do, but it became more and more clear, like, I also cannot stay here in this marriage. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: And, and really I have now built the business that I was looking for at that time, which was somebody to guide and consult, not just a lawyer who's gonna divide up our assets.

And honestly, lawyers are trained in an adversarial environment to fight for their client, which means someone's gonna win and someone's gonna lose. That is not beneficial for parents who have a lifelong journey together. [00:06:00] I will tell them your marriage might be ending, not your relationship. I. You have a forever relationship and graduations and grand babies are gonna connect you over time.

And what is most ideal for the kids is to have parents who can celebrate them and who love their children more than they dislike each other. So my goal through the Good Divorce experience is to work with. Both members of the couple side by side, not on other sides of the table, but on the both sides of the table.

And I tell them, your children are my actual clients. That's who I work for, is to help their, their parents protect their future. And I. We will work through everything from transition schedules, how to talk to the kids, how to talk to the support system around the kids building, co-parent tools, new boundaries, agreements, when does dating start?

Mm-hmm. Right? So there's no surprises, like all of those little landmines that are gonna happen in those early months. [00:07:00] I'm risk manager, I'm project manager. I'm communications director. And I work with them together. And I also give them individual time with me so that they can kind of beat their chest, cry their tears.

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: Redefine who they are. And my hope is that when I graduate them from divorce school, which is what I do, that we are turning out. Into our society, a family that is not dysfunctional and full of despair and dysfunction, but is actually high functioning. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. And I always 

Karen McNenney: say it's, it's not divorce that screws kids up.

It's adults behaving badly, married or divorced, that make it hard on kids. So, oh yeah, I love this work. I find it so rewarding, and I know it's making a difference in giving families a different option so they don't stay paralyzed like I was. 

Cynthia: Hmm. That is [00:08:00] so beautiful, and I could just see how this could be so helpful.

Well, I'm guessing since you're working with both, that part of that beginning part is that both people have to say they want to do this work. That's right. That's right. Because I can kind of picture some, ex-spouses that would be like, I'm not doing that. 

Karen McNenney: Yeah. And, and they want to get a lawyer and fight and litigate and, you know, if you're already fierce enemies by the time you decide to get divorced, I am guessing you probably stayed too long.

Cynthia: Mm. 

Karen McNenney: And that is a big error and, and I, it's not just to the individuals, but I think there's a social construct. Again, an expectation. We make it really hard for people to lean into the possibility of divorce. I even say if we're talking about divorce, it doesn't mean we're gonna have one, but we don't.

Even talk about it to educate ourselves. Mm-hmm. We just stay stuck and think, well, the house isn't burning down. I guess I'll have to stay until we strike a match and start to burn it down. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. And I 

Karen McNenney: [00:09:00] see it happen, and it's when adultery begins. Addictions start to flare up. Mm-hmm. We just get mean-spirited like we, we consciously and unconsciously begin to destroy the marriage so that we can then stand back and justify, see how bad it is.

See how terrible they are. That's why we have to leave. And I'm like, what if we actually came to that recognition when we first saw the off ramp? We're like, oh, there it goes. I'm gonna make another lap. Don't wanna take. Mm-hmm. And that there was still a sense of, if not love, at least appreciation and respect for each other, and in a recognition that we're gonna have a lifelong relationship and to take that exit ramp before the destruction begins.

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. That's 

Karen McNenney: a softening and a recognition that our culture needs to shift. And right now I think that. Not only is divorce often, you know, you're, you're shamed for it sometimes. Mm-hmm. You're, you're in a lot of isolation. I always thought, well, if my husband had died, [00:10:00] everyone would've rather, you know, they would've been gathering around me.

There would've been meal train and I would've had a casserole every other week. Instead, we're getting divorced, which is a death experience. Yes. It's the death of the family. It's the death of identity as a mm-hmm. As a a, a partner, a husband, or a wife, it's the death of being a full-time parent. There's a big adjustment when 50% or more or less of your life is, is kind of, has this gap.

So. Could we begin to see divorce as a tool to transform the family? Go through a renovation, not a weapon, to destroy the family, let the family live on, know that there was a love story. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. At one 

Karen McNenney: time that existed and these children presumably. Came from love. 

Cynthia: Yeah. 

Karen McNenney: We don't have, right. It's not a zero game.

Mm-hmm. Adventure. We don't have to dismiss all of that in order to justify a divorce. Which is [00:11:00] why I appreciate again, your audience, to be able to remind people that you can do this differently and mm-hmm. And you can have a good divorce 

Cynthia: experience. Yeah. I love that. I know my daughter gave me I am divorced, I think.

If people have listened to me a lot, they know that 'cause I talk about it. But my my daughter's son is three and she gave me this book about you know, for my grandson about what was my mom's. Life like. Like what was it like when she was a baby? What was it like when she was growing up and all this stuff?

And at first I was like, oh, this is so exciting. I can't wait to write in it. And I did write in it. I mean, it is so packed of stuff, but it was really hard because it was like, tell me, you know, tell me about when. My mom was a baby. And what did you and grandpa do? And I'm like, well, you know, I had to look back on it.

In this loving, there was this, this loving relationship. There was this time when. We did wanna be together [00:12:00] and we did want this baby. And we did, you know, like all the good things. Mm-hmm. Not all the other things that happened afterwards. Yeah. And I did end up writing a little bit about, you know, 'cause it was talking about, well, what happened when my mom went off to college?

Well, by that time I wasn't, you know, with her dad anymore. Mm-hmm. And so I, you know, I wrote. In a way of, you know, still making it nice, but that this has happened and it, it was very tricky and I never thought about how that was gonna be tricky. That, you know, telling the story of her life then has, it makes me look at the life differently because of what I went through during that time.

So, 

Karen McNenney: sure, 

Cynthia: sure. Well, you're talking about like making this transition and mm-hmm. Helping the family to kind of like become a new family or like or renovated. Yeah, renovate. I love that. Renovated, well, just a renovated family that lives across two homes. Yes. I love that. So what are some ways that you [00:13:00] help the transition with the kids as well as with the two adults who probably.

Aren't getting along some or don't. Mm-hmm. You know, see eye to eye. How do you help that transition be smooth. 

Karen McNenney: Yeah. Or they're just, you know, grief and a lot of times grief and pain and loss appears as anger in public, right? Mm-hmm. That's just kind of how it shows up. So I, I want to remind those of you listening who might be navigating a family across two homes, that there are, are a lot of opportunities to, reduce anxiety for your kids and kind of the big areas are how we talk about the other parent. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. And 

Karen McNenney: how we. Inadvertently, maybe put that child in between and how we help them exist across two homes. Just the logistics of it. So let's start with the relational part and then move to the logistical part, okay?

Mm-hmm. So on the relational side, we always hear, you know, don't [00:14:00] talk poorly about the other parent and, but sometimes they're just so darn pissed at 'em. It's hard to keep it in or just frustrations that we would have again as a married couple. Mm-hmm. My policy always is that your children should never be the spy between homes.

Mm-hmm. Which means they're not the reporter, the negotiator, or the mediator. Right. They do not, putting them in that position and what I see when I do co-parent counseling, so, you know, part of my practice is moving families through the divorce process, but also families who maybe come, came through a, a more complicated or or dysfunctional divorce journey and they're still not co-parenting very well.

And when you have high conflict or disappearance that are not. Cooperative and collaborative, those children feel it. Mm-hmm. And they start to become a protector. So they don't wanna be asked questions. They feel like I have to do everything to keep the peace in my family. It's a huge [00:15:00] responsibility.

Mm-hmm. And there's subtle ways that it comes out. And I'm gonna just share an illustration from my own family and my daughter. Sophia, who's now 20 she was probably 10 or 12. We were on a hike with the dog and we're just chatting about schoolwork and this weekend and what needs to get done and she's going through the list and, and I just as I would like, I would be, I wish you and your dad would've gone to the craft store during the time because now we have to rush around and then we're gonna be up against the deadline.

And I just don't know why he can't get the homework done with. I'm disorienting. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She stops me in my tracks and says, yeah, that sounds like a conversation you should have with dad and it is not really helpful for me to have to hear about it like she owned it. I'm like, Ugh. Oh my gosh. You wise little being.

Mm-hmm. Sophia does mean wisdom. So we were set up for her calling us out on our uhhuh, and I said, you're absolutely right. I am so sorry. I will [00:16:00] talk to your dad about that. That is grownup stuff and grownups should take care of grownup stuff. I just don't know why he doesn't take the time during the schedule to go ahead and do, and she, she's like, you're doing it again.

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: And then that really stopped me and I said, you know what, Sophia, I, I'm, I'm not gonna be perfect. And I, I will stop today. I apologize and I will apologize to your father. 'cause that's not fair to him either. And I don't know what's going on in his world. Mm-hmm. And we should all. Strive to be curious before critical.

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. Like, 

Karen McNenney: oh, I wonder, I wonder what was happening for dad during that week. I wonder if he was under the weather. I wonder what stresses were coming up at work, but we start to lose kind of our kind compassion versus, you know, really that mantra. Can I start with curiosity before criticism, and not put my child in that place of feeling like she has to be in the middle?

And then I gave her that language and I said, Sophia, this is probably gonna [00:17:00] happen again. And when it does. You have every permission to stop me. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: And you should keep using the phrase that sounds like a conversation you should have with dad. 

Cynthia: Mm. 

Karen McNenney: And so we empower our kids to help our success, but more importantly we give them an exit strategy.

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: To not get caught in that conversation. 'cause you can imagine, and I'm curious, Cynthia, what you would say about when that anxiety starts to build, of like, I'm gonna be the spy, I'm gonna be I'm gonna say the wrong thing, I'm gonna get my other parent in trouble. Like, what is going on for the child when they feel cornered and caught like that?

Cynthia: I think that they do. Kids tell me all the time that even though they know that adults can make mistakes and that adults aren't perfect all the time, there is just that power differential that they can't get past. Hmm. Because we've, I, a lot of times I talk to them about this, where teachers are concerned, like there are teachers that are bad, there are teachers [00:18:00] that are unfair.

There are teachers. Doing things they're not supposed to do. And I will tell kids that if someone is truly not doing something they need to do, you need to report it. You need to say something. You need to do something. But they will say, but they're the teacher. Like, and so I think the kids are thinking, well, they're my parent.

Like I can't, like I love that your daughter could say, listen. You're, this is sounds like an adult problem, mom. Not my problem. My mom. Yeah. I love that. And my daughter is that daughter too. Yeah. So I love it. And she put the boundaries on me and I needed it. Yeah. And I'm so glad, and she just did that because that's who she is.

Like the, the wise soul. She's definitely one of those people. But kids do need to learn that you can. You can put boundaries even no matter how old you are, even though you're a minor, you can say, this conversation is not for me, or This is too, this is too much responsibility for me. And a lot of times they probably don't even know that that's why they feel [00:19:00] trapped or that's why they feel so much anxiety.

And when I work with kids in anxiety, no matter what it is, we talk a lot about, like that feeling is normal to feel that, that trapped feeling. Or maybe you feel tight in your chest or maybe you're breathing gets shallow or whatever, but that you need to keep reminding yourself that you're, that you are safe in this moment.

Mm-hmm. And even though they might be feeling like, oh no, all these things are happening and I might make this other parent mad, or they're asking me these questions and I don't know what to do about it. You know, just trying to stay calm, even if it's, they're talking to themselves inside their mind like I am, I am safe.

And just trying to think about how can I talk through this with this adult who does have power over me. Mm-hmm. In a way that I can get my needs met, but that they can also understand where I'm coming from. Mm-hmm. And I, I do know, and I feel bad, I always say this to kids too, like there [00:20:00] are parents that are abusive or unreasonable or, you know, where they wouldn't allow you to say, I'm not gonna say, or I, I can't talk about that right now, but that is an abusive situation that you need to talk to another adult about mm-hmm. To help you with that situation. So if you have a reasonable parent mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They are gonna be able to hear you.

They may not like it. You know, we don't wanna hear that we're making mistakes or, you know, crossing boundaries or whatever. I mean, I, I was taken aback by those same things, but I was also appreciative, especially after I had a minute to think about like, oh. Yes, I shouldn't be saying that. And that went on for years after, even when she was well into her adulthood.

You know, I would make some flippant remark 'cause I think, oh, well that was a long time ago. Yeah. And she would be like, mom, you do not say that. I'm just like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. And it's good for them. They identify 

Karen McNenney: mm-hmm. [00:21:00] You know, through, through their parent. Right? Yeah. They are a product of both of us.

Cynthia: Yeah. 

Karen McNenney: And, and they will love, you know, and feel connected. E even those unhealthy situations where Yes. They're codependent to a parent that's an addict or an a parent that's abusive. Mm-hmm. Your mom is, your mom is your mom. Your dad is Your dad is your dad. Yep. And it does us no good to try and talk our kids out of that or to try and, you know, the worst thing is, is to, to choose a parent.

Mm-hmm. And again, this happens in little micro moments. Mm-hmm. Again, from my own chronicles, very early on. The four of us were together downtown in our little mountain town here in Montana, and we were all having burritos together. And, and, and the, the kids were headed home with dad for the night. We knew that was the thing.

And then there was kind of a pause on the sidewalk of like, can, can we go with mom? Or can one like, oh, maybe daughter, it'll be a mother daughter night, and then a kid [00:22:00] night. And we looked at the kids we're like, well, I don't know. What do you wanna do? Like really innocently, like, oh, we, we can change things up.

What do you wanna do? And suddenly we saw our two children who at the time were six and seven, look at each other and look at us. And their eyes started to well with tears. 'cause suddenly we had put them in a place to choose. Oh. Choose us in an ultimate way, but like, choose who you wanna drive home with.

Choose who you wanna stay with. Choose. And we were, it ended up in a whole meltdown, and Michael were like, well, we just learned that divorce lesson the hard way. Mm-hmm. We will never do that. This isn't just for the six and 7-year-old. It also, and, and maybe Cynthia because your daughter was older when you divorced, and we have a mythology that once they graduate from high school, then we're kind of done.

We don't have to co-parent. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: But what happens? Is pre-high school graduation when you're a divorced family, you [00:23:00] all learn how to be a divorced family. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: Where do we spend holidays? How do my parents communicate? How do I communicate to them? Are they like we actually build that reconstructed family?

Mm-hmm. Whereas kids go off to college. And the parent who's like, well wait till they graduate. We'll just wait. We'll just wait, and now we're done. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: Well, we all know from 18 to 25 and as an educator and expert mm-hmm. That's the last chapter of adolescence. Yeah. They, they're still cooking. They are not out of the oven yet.

Right. And they go away and they come back and they go away. And they come back. They're the boomerang age. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: They need, right. Again, talking about the, the deterrent to anxiety, they still mm-hmm. Consistency and support and to know that they have a unified parent team. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. And in 

Karen McNenney: those early years, I think it's still valuable for those co-parents to come together and say, this is how we're gonna do Christmas, and we'll just let Betty Lou know that [00:24:00] big dinner's gonna be at mom's house and this way, da da da.

And we're gonna do New Year's with da. Like it's not a parenting plan in the legal form, but it is a, a guideline so that the child isn't coming home from college and like. I don't know where to go. Yeah. I don't know how a holiday works. I don't know where my shit is. Or my bedroom. Yes, yes. Or where. And talk about they already have enough anxiety in young adults, right.

Trying to figure themselves out. Mm-hmm. Now they're negotiating a landscape that none of you have been in. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: And that's a whole nother conversation. But yeah, just to really reflect about when the child has to choose, we're gonna. Elevate anxiety. 

Cynthia: Well, and my daughter was having panic attacks in college and I really believe that, that it was a result of those kinds of things.

Mm-hmm. Because there was still a lot of well, her dad saying she had to make choices. You need to choose me over your mom. If you choose your mom, [00:25:00] I'm gonna do this or I'm gonna do that. And so she was, I know it was, it was a huge mess. Heartbroken. Yeah. It was. I'm heartbroken. For her it 

Karen McNenney: was. Yes. Yeah.

It, it does damage and it casts a long shadow. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: Right. And I'm sure that there, that shadow still exists in all of those relationships, right? Yeah. And to what end? Right. This is where just breaks my heart and makes me so grumpy about how we do divorce. Mm-hmm. By just right outta the gate, establishing it as enemy warfare.

No. Mm-hmm. That isn't how it needs to go. Please, everybody stop doing that. Right. I know. 

Cynthia: It's so hurtful and it really doesn't, it doesn't go away because. You know, she's 34 and she's still dealing with it. Yeah. And there are times when she's in the, she's in group therapy, she's in individual therapy and she's in couples therapy all at the same time because she has to deal with the trauma that happened because of how all that was done.[00:26:00] 

Mm-hmm. And she's doing well, and she's trying to, you know. Have the best life that she can have. Yeah. But it's hard because it, it was a very difficult thing and I, I can't say that none of it was my fault. You know, I will take any Sure. You know, anything that I was involved in, I want to, to rectify. And when you were talking earlier about saying I'm sorry.

You know, please continue to tell me when I'm making mistakes. That's a repair. And I, I talk to families about this so often. The repair part is really the most important part because we are gonna make mistakes. Mm-hmm. And we are gonna do things that are hurtful just accidentally when we, you know, don't mean to.

And as long as we can repair it, then that's, that's the best part of the relationship that we can, can do. It's that when we don't care mm-hmm. That, that doesn't get. Resolved and then that just becomes a huge barrier [00:27:00] in the relationship no matter how old they get and or any relationship. Yeah. 

Karen McNenney: Coworkers.

Yeah. Our spouses, our siblings, yeah. Relationships. Right. Both you and I have been res, singled and mm-hmm. Entered the dating world, rebuilding relationships with new information. I was like, it's not the avoidance of conflict that actually is not health. Mm-hmm. We, we want. A safe relationship where there can be healthy discord.

Yeah. It's what we do with it after the fact. Mm. How we repair, can we repair, are both parties willing to repair? That's, that's kind of the golden elixir of every relationship. 

Cynthia: Right. Yeah. Well, earlier you talked about talking about logistics and we did a little bit with the college age, like. Even though they're not at home anymore, we still need to talk about what are the logistics when you go away and come home and mm-hmm.

And you still are very much parenting them. I remember I was still very financially involved and very much on the phone a lot about how to, [00:28:00] how to be an adult. Because they don't know. That's right. And even her first full-time job after graduating, it happened to be the same job. She was a school counselor.

I was a school counselor. Oh. So I got calls every day at school like, oh mom, this just happened. This kid just came in now. Now what do I do now? What do I do? So that goes on for a really long time. I don't get that so much anymore. Yeah. 

Karen McNenney: Yeah. And that executive function, that, that frontal lobe is not fully formed until about age 25.

Yeah. We, we just, again, we have this 18 adulthood mm-hmm. Written into our, our national narrative, but Right. No, 18 to 25 is still the last stage of adolescents. They're, and it, it takes a long time to get 'em off the payroll, honestly. Right? Yes. College into your own house, into paying for your car. You've got your job, maybe your first relationship, your own health insurance.

Cynthia: Like there are so many steps in there. So many things I know. Well, when there's still miners and they're at home, the logistics, I [00:29:00] mean, they still, you still have to decide where the holiday's gonna be, but now you have, they're going back and forth between two homes, sometimes every other weekend, sometimes.

I've even seen the, yeah, the, yeah. Like two days here. Two days there. Yeah. So how do you keep that going? 

Karen McNenney: So the first thing I'll say is it's, it's really age determined and, and depending on when you get divorced, you're gonna write a parenting plan based on the age of your children. At the time in, in my world, our kids were five and seven.

So we did, we did three and four day stretches and. They needed constant contact with both of us in order to develop healthy attachment. Sure. Right. Which is really important until up about age five or six. Right. So, and they're just so little. Mm-hmm. But when they got to middle school, they're like, we wanna move to a week on, week off.

And when we got outta the pandemic, they're like, can we just do two weeks at a time? We're tired of schlepping our stuff [00:30:00] around. And when daughter went off to college, son was like. I'm doing a month. I wanna move my whole gaming system. I wanna pack it all up. Mm-hmm. And I'm not gonna do it for a week or two.

It's not worth it. I keep coming back and forth. I just wanna plant myself. Mm-hmm. You know, keeping your parenting plan dynamic. And again, if you have a healthy relationship, then you can talk about that. Mm-hmm. And you can be flexible and make adjustments. And when holidays with family members or special occasions or trips happen, then you can, you can continue to be collaborative.

So, so there's that element. Then there's really just the gear and I kind of wanna talk about a few hacks with, with gear. Sure. When they're little, you can duplicate a lot of things in terms of household, but you're not gonna duplicate hockey gear and ski gear and bicycles. So first rule of thumb, it is the responsibility of the grownups to make sure the kids have what they need in their home.

I. I heard a terrible, heartbreaking story once of a young adult woman who said, my parents thought it was a good idea [00:31:00] to send my dad and I to school with our carry on item, or my brother and I, and they would have to take a roller suitcase to school, put it in their locker, take it back out to get in the other parent's car and go home with him.

She said it was embarrassing. It was humiliating. It was, it was just wrong and the parents could not get it together. Mm. To avoid that so. You are in whatever needs to be gathered up and you wanna give your children, especially the younger they are, but always like make sure there's a calendar in the house that shows three days here, four days there, three days.

So the kids know, and as they get older now they're making plans with friends. And my mom's house, that's where I like to have a slumber party. My dad's house, that's where we like to go. You know, to the baseball field and, and hit balls like they're planning their lives also based on their households. So keep them informed and, and I'm sure you echo this all the time, Cynthia, the most important things for kids is dependability [00:32:00] and consistency and that I know what's coming.

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: That anticipatory anxiety of not knowing can be debilitating. So let them know. And if they're asking a question that you don't know the answer to, then you say, Hey, great question. Let, I'm gonna take some time. You do not have to answer anything in the moment, folks. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: Then always say, let me think about that.

So having the calendar, that's one way to reduce anxiety and letting your kids know what's happening. Then with gear, always, you know, give them. At least the day before, like, Hey, tomorrow's a transition day. Let's start thinking about what you, what's important for you to go to your other home. I actually don't use the language mom's house and dad's house.

Cynthia: Hmm. 

Karen McNenney: I have abolished that with all of my clients and would like to encourage the rest of us to do it, because what that does is it connotates ownership. This is mom's house. This is dad's house. I have no house. I'm the visitor. Wow. I'm the kid, [00:33:00] so in our case, I live on Lily Court. Dad lives on Gilbert Avenue.

Our homes are Lily and Gilbert. Oh, cute. I have a family that has the park house and the Ocean View house. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. A 

Karen McNenney: family that has the greenhouse and the yellow house. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. So 

Karen McNenney: they become these shared family identifiers of how we talk about it. And you will, you'll talk about it all the time. Well, is that over at Gilbert?

Oh no, we left it Lily. Well, I wanna have a, a slumber party there and it's not owned by the parents. In terms of the kids' perception, it is their house as well, not just mom's house or dad's house. We don't, we don't refer to that when we're married. Like, well, mom and dad's house. Yeah. It's our family home.

So now we're a family that has two homes. Oh, okay. Yeah. I, I hadn't even thought of that, but that makes sense. Right. There's all these little nuances. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And as a divorce consultant, these are the things I help families establish. Mm-hmm. As they, as they create a new BL blueprint for their family, a function.[00:34:00] 

So you let them know the night before or heading into the weekend. You know, it's Friday, Sunday's a transition day. So if there's things that you want help with, with a project or a special thing you wanna do, or you still wanna go get tennis shoes, right? Kids don't have a great sense of time and little ones don't care what day of the week it is or whatever, right?

We're. We're trying to put it age appropriate so that they have a concept of it so that they're emotionally ready. Mm-hmm. And then when you drop them off at school on Monday, right, things are gathered up. I'm gonna take their things gathered up that are important and deliver them to dad's front porch or to his living room.

But the kids aren't in charge of that. And I'm gonna say, dad's gonna pick you up after school, or you're gonna take your other bus. Right. And so that they know what's coming beforehand. Mm-hmm. And then I, this communication piece, so something that gets lost, I want you to think about your daughter coming home, Cynthia.

And she has this spelling test and she got a [00:35:00] hundred percent and it's an a plus. And then she made this wonderful piece of art and art class and she comes home and she shows 'em to you and then they disappear into the abyss of your house. And her other parent never sees it. Yeah. Now it's not essential.

Mm-hmm. But let's think about the kid's world. Mm-hmm. What's important for the child is for the parent, both of them, to say, you're doing so great in English. Mm-hmm. You've got another a hundred percent on your Spanish test, this or that. All the artwork always comes home on your day and you put it up on your fridge and the other parent doesn't have any kid artwork in their house.

Mm-hmm. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: So I invite families to establish what I call the boomerang folder. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: It's this folder that goes back and forth between the homes where once I see their schoolwork, the good, the bad, the ugly. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: I stick it in that boomerang folder and on transition day now dad gets to see it all and he's, it keeps him in the loop.

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: And then artwork, same thing. Maybe I take a picture of it and [00:36:00] I'm fine to have the digital. Or I take a picture of the thing I'm gonna put on my fridge and I just send it to 'em. Because then when child arrives at their other home, that parent is already part of their story. Yes. Because what happens is Barbara Walters, the kids walk in the house like, so what'd you do this week?

And what are your projects and how is that? And the kids are like, oh my gosh, this is so over. They get anxiety. Mm-hmm. 'cause now I'm responsible for being the reporter of everything that not even, again, the bad, I'm not talking about my parents, it's just my life. Mm-hmm. 

Cynthia: Yeah. 

Karen McNenney: So the responsibility of the parent one to keep the other co-parent informed.

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: About what's going on. And then you send this Boomerang folder, they have artwork they can put up, they see the permission slip. Oh, there's a field trip coming this week. I see that you got these great grades. And then the same thing. Mm-hmm. Dad's gonna populate that boomerang folder during the week the kids are with him and it's gonna go over to mom's house.

Mm-hmm. Or same gendered households, [00:37:00] however you identify the system works the same. 

Cynthia: Sure. 

Karen McNenney: And the other way to do that, when you get out of like kids bringing schoolwork home mm-hmm. Because they get it's digital. But another way again, to, to bridge the home so that the kids feel like they're part of one story, not these two compartmentalized stories, is to start a family text thread.

I. That's driven by the kids, and it's all about the kids. So again, imagine I'm out skiing with the kids. It's my weekend. We're having so much fun. My son totally lands his back flip. He is so stoked. I get a video of it, he's like, yes, I did it. Now, if I were still married to their father, I would right away send that video.

Look at what Patrick did today. He crushed it. He's so excited. Sorry, you couldn't be here to see it in person. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: I can still do that. As your former spouse. 

Cynthia: Yes. 

Karen McNenney: The exact same thing. I'm gonna send that photo. [00:38:00] The kids are gonna see it. They're gonna see the video, they're gonna see dad respond. That's awesome.

I can't wait till I get to see it. So their life has one thread that's weaving between these homes, not. The in between middle earth space, that again, now I have to tell dad everything that happened, and more importantly, dad now gets to celebrate with me. 

Cynthia: Yeah. 

Karen McNenney: And celebrate the things that are happening in my life.

And you know, I don't send photos of the kids and I on the beach together on vacation. Mm-hmm. He doesn't see photos of me, but I'm gonna send photos of the kids while we're away on vacation. Mm-hmm. So he knows, but it's more important so that when the kids come back, he's like, oh my gosh, I saw the sand castle you guys built.

That's amazing. And then when Sophia got all buried in the mermaid. And this is like a super power with high conflict parents [00:39:00] whose children know they're high conflict. And what the kids know is that it's always nasty grams and they don't like to talk to each other and I can't talk about anything in each other's homes and 

Cynthia: mm-hmm.

Karen McNenney: But now this just happened with a client and the kids sees and like, oh, they're, they're talking to each other and it's really nice stuff and it's about me. 

Cynthia: Mm-hmm. 

Karen McNenney: It's transformative. 

Cynthia: Oh, that sounds so wonderful. I am so glad that you're doing this work. Thanks. Now you have a podcast, the Good Divorce Show, I think is what it's called.

Show. That's right. All right. And so I want people to go and listen about that 'cause they're gonna get much more of this information so that they can, if they're. Experiencing some problems that this might be the direction that they could go to get get it going in the right direction. Mm-hmm. And you, I'm sure you have like a website and where people can go Yes.

And get in more contact with you. 

Karen McNenney: Yes, absolutely. You can find me at the Good Divorce coach. [00:40:00] And the Good Divorce Show, those podcast episodes there's lots of resources there and blogs, and there's a button on every page of my website that says, connect with Karen. And what I want all of you listening to know is that the first hour is always free with me.

Cynthia: Hmm. 

Karen McNenney: So whether you're thinking about divorce and you're like, I don't, if I talk about divorce, does that mean I'm gonna get a divorce? No, it means you're getting educated. 'cause I bet you talked to lots of people about your wedding before you planned your wedding and implemented your wedding. Mm-hmm. We are under-skilled and under knowledged about what we might be choosing.

So you can call and have a confidential, private conversation with me. If you are moving down that path, then we'll talk about what the process is and what it might look like. You also can consider some co-parent support that maybe you are one of those families that came through a divorce, that left some scars, and you're really wanting to improve your co-parent relationship, [00:41:00] which in turn is going to.

Help with the anxiety that a child of divorce might be facing. And more of the tips that I shared today are things that you can implement in your family and reduce stress and anxiety for your children. I. The good divorce coach, that's where you'll find me. 

Cynthia: I love it. And I'm gonna put all those links in the show notes too so that they can connect with you.

But thank you so much for being with us. This has been so good for me, even though I don't have to deal with that anymore. I, it was just good for me to hear and it's so good for my audience. So thank you so much. 

Karen McNenney: My pleasure.