Relationships Matter Most: breaking down silos in modern worplace one interaction at a time with Bryan Miller

Imagine organizations where relationships aren't just an afterthought but the foundation of everything. Where performance, innovation, and well-being flow naturally from meaningful human connections. That's the transformative vision Bryan shares in this profound conversation.

Drawing from 30 years of talent management experience across five continents, Bryan reveals why focusing on relationships is the key to thriving workplaces.

He makes a compelling case backed by science: "If anything you can die from, you die earlier if you're lonely." This biological imperative for connection extends directly to our work lives, where relationship quality determines everything from stress levels to problem-solving capacity.

Bryan introduces his framework of four crucial organizational relationships: employee-employee, leader-employee, leader-leader, and company-employee.

Each requires specific attention and nurturing to create environments where self-serving behaviors diminish and collaborative success flourishes. He explains why culture isn't something we directly fix but rather an outcome of our actions and relationships – similar to how winning emerges from proper execution, not from talking about winning.

The conversation explores practical ways leaders can strengthen workplace relationships, from structured communication approaches that confirm understanding beyond simple head nods, to implementing the "relationships matter most" mindset inspired by John Gottman's research. Bryan offers immediately actionable advice: maintain a 5:1 ratio of positive to negative interactions, and always focus on commonality before differences.

Perhaps most powerfully, Bryan emphasizes service as the cornerstone of thriving organizations. When we approach work with a mindset of serving our teams, our functions, and our organizations before ourselves, we create cultures where people find meaning, purpose, and fulfillment – and where business results naturally follow.

Ready to transform your workplace culture through the power of relationships? 

isit Brian's website at bshtalentsolutions.com to learn more about his approach or purchase his book "Relationship Driven Cultures: Foster Unity, Enrich Self-Worth, and Build Resilience."

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Bryan Miller BIO:

Bryan brings nearly 30 years of talent management experience, serving as both head of talent management and a trusted consultant to small businesses, nonprofits, and Fortune 200 companies across five continents.  

Known for his innovative, relationship-focused approach, he helps organizations strengthen cultures, align strategies, and drive performance from the front line to the C-suite.

He has built talent functions from the ground up, led major change and project management initiatives, and consistently empowered teams through collaboration, development, and shared purpose.

Bryan holds a BS in Business Administration from Penn State and an MS in Positive Organization Development and Change from Case Western Reserve. He has completed executive programs at Harvard and MIT and is certified in numerous assessments that guide his work in improving individual and team effectiveness.

Bryan lives in Westerville, Ohio, with his wife, Sherri, and daughter, Hannah.

Transcript

Introduction to Brian and His New Book

Speaker 1 0:02

Brian, welcome to ChangeWired podcast. I'm super excited to have you here. You've been around in the field. You bring to this podcast 30 years of talent management experience, serving as both lead of talent management and trusted consultant to small businesses, nonprofits and Fortune 200 companies across five continents. You are known for your innovative, relationship-focused approach and you help organizations to strengthen cultures, align strategies, drive performance from the frontline to the CCO. And today we are here to also celebrate one of the key milestones of your work your new book coming out, I think, just in a week. Relationship Driven Cultures Foster Unity and Reach Self-Worth and Build Resilience. So, brian, I'm so happy and excited to have you here. Thank you so much for coming.

Speaker 2 1:06

Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 1 1:08

Yeah, so that is so amazing. You're probably excited about the book as well, right? Is it your first one?

Speaker 2 1:14

Yeah, the book has been a lot of work but definitely well worth it. It refined my thinking and helped me think through things even a little bit differently than I had. Of course it incorporates all the things I've learned over those 30 years of, you know, being blessed to be able to work with lots of great organizations and great people and learn from a lot of great people, and kind of as I put that all together to be into the book, it actually kind of changed a little bit. I added some things. I even learned some things as I wrote it. So I was definitely excited to have that done and do we recently did the book launch a couple of weeks ago and it went really well. Interesting story we ended up not having electricity for part of the event.

Speaker 1 2:04

I thought it was only South Africa.

Speaker 2 2:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it really kind of highlighted that you know it does take relationships to get things done, because obviously I threw out a curve ball but you know we couldn't reschedule, we had people coming in from out of town and all over and everything like that. So we made the best of it. Everybody chipped in and it ended up working out really well. So we were happy to get that launched and now we're happy to share it with everyone and hopefully be able to work more with more organizations on improving their culture.

Culture as an Outcome, Not a Fix

Speaker 1 2:38

Yes, I think you know, culture is the word of I don't know the time of the era, right, with all the change happening and organizations are battling with so much stuff, from AI to all kinds of changes. So culture seems to be the key unlocker to get, I guess, to maximize positive outcome, but also to help people deal with it and thrive through it. Right, speaking about your book, uh, what inspired you to write it? Yeah, how did that come to be? I mean, you know?

Speaker 2 3:12

yeah, so I would say when I first got the idea about incorporating relationships more into my work, I really didn't really intend on writing a book, honestly about it.

Speaker 1 3:24

I just, I just started.

Speaker 2 3:25

You know, building all my talent, management, you know processes, intervention, those kind of things, getting really hyper focused on relationships and trying to figure out how to bring people together. So of course I wanted to continue to do that more and more and then, as more recent, a couple more recent issues that came up and that was really to solve the issue of self-serving behavior. So I think that's one of the most, if not the most, detrimental behaviors you can have in organizations and I talk about that a lot in the book, where you know it not only sub optimizes the outcomes, you know it kind of creates havoc and you know there's extra time at the cooler complaining and trying to deal with it and things like that. So it's very disruptive. So that's why I ended up asking myself what is the question, what's the foundation, what's the root of fixing that issue?

Speaker 2 4:18

And I ended up answering that for myself as relationships. So that's when I started incorporating it more, and then more recently and that's been for many years now and then more recently we started to see more burnout, more division in our organization.

Speaker 2 4:36

And so I'm always asking what's the root cause, how could we fix that, how could we improve it? And I ended up answering it with the same answer relationships. And I thought there must be more to this, and how could I really really start infusing this focus on relationships? And as I started gathering ideas and putting things together, I ended up deciding well, I need to write a book about it, and that was probably about two years ago when I did that. So a lot of times I get asked how long did it take you to write a book about it? That was probably about two years ago when I did that. So, you know, a lot of times I get asked how long did it take you to write the book? And I say it just depends on when. You think I started right. But so probably about two years ago when I wanted to solve, for those problems too, came up with the idea that it really is relationships that make our organizations thrive.

Speaker 2 5:23

So then, I wrote the book to help organizations focus on that in a new and different way.

Speaker 1 5:30

Yes, and I guess to address this issue of self-serving behaviors right, which was or is at the core of a lot of problems, not just in our organizations but also in our personal lives. Before we jump into specific frameworks that you talk about in your book, who maybe inspired you to write this book? Who did you have in mind writing this book? You mentioned that you wanted to solve certain issues in organizations In your experience. Who this book would benefit the most Like, if you have in mind someone who picks it up and then uses it in organizations to make organization and people thrive. Like who is this person?

Speaker 2 6:17

Yeah, I think I'll give maybe kind of a dual answer. One is kind of almost anybody that wants to focus on culture in organizations and improve relationships in organizations, but really kind of the main target, I would say, or probably more like you know, chros head of talent management CEOs.

Speaker 2 6:40

So somebody because in the book which I'm sure we'll get into later there is it's a very systems approach, so you can use a lot of things in there as an individual if nobody else is playing along, but it really is works best if it's a systems approach so someone who can, you know, kind of take the lead and really kind of you know, make that the way that they work in their organization.

Three Foundational Beliefs for Relationships

Speaker 1 7:06

Yeah, plus, you know the book is that they work in organ, in their organization. Yeah, plus, you know the book is called relationship, dreaming culture. So relationship usually is more than one person, although we also have a relationship with felt. But uh, yes, um, what, and also, what drives organizations are people, collectives of people, teams, and so, obviously, like the main sort of net that connects all of us, whether that's again organization or some other collective, is the relationship and how we build those. Yes, yeah, I'd like to you know. Start, have a few questions prepared to dive deeper into your book. In the book you make this claim, I guess, that culture is an outcome, not something we fix or work on. Can you dive deeper into, like this thought what is culture? And if we don't work on it, don't fix it? Like, what do we do to create the kind of culture that make organization thrive?

Speaker 2 8:16

Yeah, yeah, I guess I kind of touch on that. There are people out there who focus on that probably more than I do and certainly more than I do in the book. Around this. You know culture versus environment, right, those kind of things and what really is culture. And I make that point because I want people to focus on the things that they need to do, not just the culture. Of course you have to have a target of where you're trying to go, but you really need to focus on what are the steps that you're going. You have to have a target of where you're trying to go, but you really need to focus on what are the steps that you're going to take to get there?

Speaker 2 8:49

And the culture really comes about because of the actions you're taking, how you deal with things, how you solve problems, how you interact with each other all those things you know. The external environment, all those things kind of impact the culture and then that creates the outcome. But it's an example I give in the book is around when I was in high school, many years ago now, we had a coach and he wouldn't let us talk about winning and at first it perplexed me and then I kind of figured it out Like winning is the outcome right. So creating a good culture is the outcome of the actions you take, the decisions you make, the things you're willing to accept or not accept. So I really just touch on that point in the book to try to get people to focus more on what are the actions, what's the environment that we need to create to make things better and make it a place where people want to come to work and they get value out of it and they give value.

Speaker 1 9:50

Yes, it's such an important point. You know, I worked as a coach for many, many years and with our clients I always say, like, set the goal and forget about the goal, focus building the skills, focus on building on actions and habits. And, yeah, make an environment, support that and the goal will be like a side effect so it's absolutely. That's a very much the same thing, yeah yeah, it's like also that I can't just think um somewhere. Culture is not what we aspire to be. It's what we repeatedly do I think that's what you talk about.

Speaker 2 10:29

Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 1 10:30

Yes, thank you again for highlighting that aspect. It's like again, culture is an outcome. Yes, you can just like a goal, aspire this is the culture we want, but then switching to the behaviors that you need to create that culture and not just behaviors, right, I want to jump into like a core, I guess, framework in your book where you talk not just about behaviors or relationship. You talk about three foundational beliefs for organizational relationships, for environmental elements. Maybe let's start with the beliefs. What are those three foundational beliefs that companies need to get right before, I guess you know, even hoping that culture outcome will happen?

Speaker 2 11:22

Yeah, I'm glad you started there, because that is kind of the most important point. And, as you know, being a coach, you know people will act in accordance with their deepest beliefs, right? And so the first step is to really get people to believe that relationships are the most important thing, and so the first one is that relationships really are our deepest purpose as human beings. So I'm not even just talking about organizations there, and I share a lot of statistics in the book just to help convince, but just to share a few. If anything you can, anything you can die from, you die earlier if you're lonely. This is CDC. You know stats. And then it also loneliness increases the rates of anxiety, depression and suicide. So it's really undeniable that as humans we're designed to be in relationship with others, because obviously loneliness is just the lack of being in relationship with others, and so it really kind of sets the tone that you know we are designed for that. So the more we have of it, the better we are.

Speaker 2 12:40

And of course I focus on work relationships because that's my background. So you know I make the case that. You know. Why shouldn't we get that value from relationships at work as well? Right, because it's going to make our organizations better. It's going to make us better. It's going to make us both mentally and physically healthier there's, you know, because it impacts both of those things, and so you really, I really spent some time trying to convince people.

Speaker 2 13:09

You know, because it impacts both of those things, and so, you really, I really spent some time trying to convince people. You know that we're designed. That I've done. You know we share lots of good things, you know. Just as a simple example, you know one of the things I do is teach feedback, how to give and receive feedback right. It's one of the most underused tools in organizations. It's very cheap. People should use it more. But you know we talk about how to, you know, squash down defensiveness and get people to listen to the feedback and at least consider it and incorporate it if appropriate, and things like that. Those are all good processes. Probably we'll have to continue to do it, but one of the things I noticed was the stronger the relationships were within the team, the group or the people, the less those things are needed. Like, if we have a good relationship, I don't have to be very careful about how I present the feedback to you right.

Speaker 2 14:10

And try to squash defensiveness and things like that. I can just kind of give you the feedback and you accept that I have good intentions. Whether I'm right or wrong is a whole nother story, but I at least have good intentions in sharing it, so you're more willing to hear it. So those sort of kind of lay the foundation for that. As humans we're designed to be in relationship, and then that kind of sets the tone yeah. And then this oh, did you have a follow-up on that?

Speaker 2 14:38

no, no, no, I wanted you to continue, yeah yeah, yeah, and the second one you already kind of touched on it about, you know, relationships and we're in relationships and it really is as I started thinking about organizations, you know over the years they've changed. You know quite a bit. As you know, I've had a reasonably long career now working in organizations and you know we've changed hierarchies. We were, you know, hierarchies started getting pretty big, you know, many years ago and then we started flattening them out and then maybe we went too far and adjust, and so you know those things have changed over the years and always to try to do better work. And they also can change based off the situation. You know one company, one industry might respond better to a different hierarchy, a different number of layers, and things like that are needed or not needed, right, depending on the situation, the size of the company and many other factors. So those change all the time.

Speaker 2 15:33

Teams have even changed. Back in the day we didn't really think about teams. It was just departments, you know, kind of people doing like work, working together, and they were a department and you went about your day right. Then we started bringing in the introduction of teams and then we now we have permanent teams, network teams, project teams, temporary teams any given person and at any given time probably is on more than one team in an organization. These days. You know they probably have their main team or that's resides resides within their function. They might be on some temporary team, a project team, a change management team, different things like that. So you're probably on more than one teams.

Speaker 2 16:13

So those things have changed over the years. Comp packages where we work has changed quite a bit in the last handful of years. Right, remote work, hybrid work now is becoming more popular. In person, of course, in some cases is still the right answer. So all those things kind of change.

Speaker 2 16:33

What hasn't changed is having to have relationships with other people in the organization, and most likely from different functions, most likely from different areas of the company, maybe even different locations. So it takes those relationships to really kind of bring people together and those are always going to be there. No matter what the team structure, no matter what the org structure is, those you know, the relationships, will always need to be there. So that was there. And then the third outcome, or the third belief, I should say, is really an outcome of those two really. So, given that, if you're staying with me so far on that and buying into that, then you're naturally going to want to think of organizations as a collection of relationships, and my lean background tells me, if I want to improve something, I have to understand it first. So I create four different sets of relationships, so employee to employee, leader to employee, leader to leader and then, of course, company to employee are the way that I view that.

Speaker 2 17:39

I really tend to take that view of organizations and make it permanent so that it's not like sometimes, when we work in organizational development things, we use metaphors to think of organizations. We think if an organization is this, then what would we think and how would we act? Right, it's a learning exercise. I'm trying to take this further than being a metaphor or learning exercise and make it more permanent, where that's just how we think of organizations. We think of them as those four sets of relationships and then we can, you know, improve them, think about how we make them better. I give a set of purposes to each of those different sets of relationships as well to help guide you know how should we be interacting and what should we be doing together. So those are the three foundational beliefs that kind of kick the whole thing off and get you more excited. So one of the things I've always done in change management is trying to take people from have to do something to willing to do something, all the way to wanting to do something.

Speaker 2 18:43

And so these beliefs kind of get you to that level excuse me, in change management it, you know, working in all three levels is good, but once you get to willing to doing something, that's when you really kind of implement a change. And so that's what the beliefs try to do is really get you to be you, you know, really want to do something, not just willing or happy.

Speaker 1 19:05

Yeah, and it's such an important factor like willing and wanting to do that, because very often our leaders get stuck or get focused on like function design, technology design and tool design, and there is this belief that if we design a perfect system and give people tools, they will just do it. But did you ask the people? Are they willing and able and going to do it? And that's a different question and that's what it means to be human focused. I guess my practical question to you is okay, we have this, you know certain beliefs that we need to change before people will be willing to take action. Are there any specific practices? Because leaders probably will want to like, know a little bit, like how do you practically implement that? So, let's say, change people's beliefs and willingness to act, like can you give a few maybe tools examples?

Speaker 2 20:06

Yeah, I think you know a lot of that really comes from communication and you know, maybe going even more in depth than I just did about you know how relationships are important. And then I think the other thing is kind of maybe just you know following. You know good change management theory, right, if you're thinking about trying to get a whole organization behind it, but talk about you know what's in it for them, right. So the you know increasing. You know different people are motivated by different things, so you got to kind of figure out what you know motivates them. But just in general, people want their work lives to be better. I think there's, you know, a lot more statistics that I showed about.

Speaker 2 20:51

You know stress and things like that.

Speaker 2 20:54

You know reduction of stress as relationships improve, and so you're really just making the case for it's mostly going to be, you know, through communication, maybe some focus groups If you were going to try to implement the whole thing, some focus groups early on so you can have that two-way conversation, but getting them to kind of visualize and imagine what work would be like if there wasn't a lot of stress from their work relationships. There's always going to be stress when we have humans interacting or we're trying to accomplish things, but you know it should be good, stress, right, and it should be meaningful, and at the end you should be able to say, well, that was really kind of worth it. So it's just building that case, for you know how it's going to be better, right. So improved relationships, improved business outcomes, improved innovation, problem solving you know, I touch on all those in the book, all the different outcomes. I think it's just merely a matter of kind of sharing those to get people to buy in that this is something worth working on something worth working on.

Speaker 1 22:04

Yeah, and you mentioned, you know, just now, communication as a very important factor in building beliefs and building relationships and probably everything else that company does. What would you say? Did you notice some maybe mistakes that leaders usually do in terms of communication and trying to change people's beliefs or increase their willingness to take action? What usually goes wrong when it comes to communication?

Four Key Organizational Relationships

Speaker 2 22:36

I think one of the things is not paying enough attention to it and I think a lot of times we think we communicate something out broadly and then everybody hears. You know everybody hears it and buys into it and then we're done. But I think my to avoid that, you know, break in the communication chain I like to make when I'm working in organizations. I like to make the communications more structured so it doesn't have to look the same and probably shouldn't look the same, as you know, what the CEO says versus what the director says, versus what the direct manager says. You know those things need to be aligned and different. You know they want to. People really want to hear, you know, from the CEO why this is important and what we hope to get out of it, and things like that. And then from their direct manager they really want to hear more about. You know, how does it impact my work life, how is it going to impact me, how's it going to be make my work different? And you know those more specific things is what they usually like to hear from them, so to to overcome that miscommunication. Or you know we said it a couple of times, so they must have heard it because people are busy, you got inboxes are jammed full, you got work to do and things like that. So you know, communicating more frequently and then having different targeted communications throughout the different levels I think helps break that chain of miscommunication, things like that. And then I think you know we don't do enough.

Speaker 2 24:12

Summarizing I don't think. I think I think leaders do that. They, you know they communicate something, they get the head nod and the person likely even believes they understood what was said. Right. Not that they're trying to be tricky or deceitful. They truly believe they understood. But if there's not the back and forth on it to make sure things are clarified, and then you know kind of checking in along the way at the appropriate frequency. You don't want to micromanage but you don't want to just communicate something and then assume they completely understood either. So it's working again. Having that relationship where you know checking in and and following up and saying do you really understand that? Can you repeat it back to me? Yeah, having that relationship where you can do that really kind of frees you up to have better communications versus the getting the head nod and they thought they understood but they really didn't. I think those are kind of the two main problems that come up.

Speaker 1 25:15

Oh, and such an important reminder that confirmation of understanding is not just nod of the head, but hearing it from the other person, what it is that they actually understood. Because you know, there is this cognitive bias that we think what's in our heart is kind of very similar to what's in other person's heart and what we understood is the only way that could be understood. When, in reality, we come to work or to life situation from so many different backgrounds, then words can have so many meanings, right, and so what I assume is not at all necessarily what the other person said and it's just, yeah, summarizing. It's like am I getting this right? And to just confirm and prevent further I don't know misunderstanding or misalignment in terms of execution or how the task is supposed to be done.

Speaker 2 26:11

Yes, yes, I 100% agree with you. Like, that picture in your head is so clear to you. But they can't see the picture in your head, right? So it takes a little more work to make sure that we work that out.

Speaker 1 26:25

Yeah, I think also, you know, touching a little bit on AI, the trend of the era is sometimes we bring the same assuming mindset to our communication with AI and we're like, why isn't it getting it and not giving you what I want? Well, because it doesn't contribute your mind, just like the other person can't, and the way you communicate, that's what it got with all this databases of knowledge, etc. But the same actually happens with another human being. We just don't see it and we see the knot of the hat and we're like, yeah, they understood, but did they? Yes, such an important topic, right, clarity of communication, effectiveness and summarizing and reflecting, like in such simple practices you can probably teach them in, like I don't know, under 20 minutes yes, yeah, it's one of those things that's common sense but not common practice.

Speaker 2 27:23

Right, it's not hard to do, it's not hard to figure out that we should do it.

Speaker 1 27:28

We just get so busy and, uh, we don't take the time to do it, so it's not common practice and in your book you know, you talk about this gap, about between intent and behavior, and that, yeah, it's very important to address this gap, to close this gap and to have to, to hope, to get the kind of culture and the kind of relationships that you need your organization to have to thrive and to help people also thrive and grow. I want to now switch, I think, to four organizational relationships that you just mentioned Employee to employee, leader to employee, leader to leader, company to employee. Those are key relationships. What could you tell our listeners about maybe each of them a little bit, and what are some of the key elements or practices to build to start building good dynamics and good relationships?

Speaker 2 28:26

those four relationships yeah, okay, yeah, and I think you know it's kind of a little bit tied together with the overall framework. You know it kind of sets the environment to have those relationships thrive. But then each of them do kind of have a, you know, a focus for each one. So with the employees it's really trying to get them focused on doing meaningful work together and have that be the focus. You know, sometimes as human beings we're different in a lot of ways and we sometimes we let things irritate us more than we should. So I think, making sure that we're focused on meaningful work, we are also prioritizing the organization as we do that work together. So it's not about me getting my next promotion, it's about us making that meaningful work valuable to the organization and making the organizational successful.

Speaker 2 29:20

Uh, and then it's also, you know, being willing to change, and I think it's. That, for me, is kind of has a dual aspect to it. It's one being willing to adjust, um, to how you work right and you adjust to how you work right and you adjust to how I work. That makes it come out better. You're not changing who you are, you're not being fake, but right, if I need a lot of detail and you just want it to be high level. It's kind of meeting in the middle as we do our work and figure out what is the right level of detail before we move on right.

Speaker 2 29:55

When do we focus on the big picture? Both of those things are right, but sometimes we butt heads right, because I'm only trying to focus on all the detail and you're trying to move on and things like that. So that can be irritating. So it's being willing to change in that respect. And then today's work environment and many people are saying this, so this isn't anything new, but you know we're always going through change. Change is more of a constant now, right, and so there's always some kind of change going on. I don't think that's bad right, because we're trying to improve. I think the more we can get used to that and have that okay, that's just what we do right and make it more normal, the more we are. So it's being willing to change in that way, to work together with each other to really kind of make the make it better. And I think you know sometimes I noticed in organizations, you know employees want to just kind of say can we just settle in here for a while and stop trying to improve so much?

Speaker 2 30:54

But then I always remind them what happened the last time you went to buy a television set. The last time you went to buy a television set, you wanted it to be cheaper, you want it to be bigger, you want it to do more, you want the picture to be better, all those things. So your customers are wanting the same thing from you that you want from that TV experience. So you do always have to strive to get better. And then it's valuing the relationship. Is the next one for the employee and employee relationship and it's really kind of prioritizing that and that's actually one of the mindsets to some things are, you know, kind of show up more than once, trying to really reinforce them, but it's really being able to you know kind of work together and you know value the relationship that you have. And then for the leader to employee relationship, that's really about you know providing, being committed to making the employees successful.

Speaker 2 31:55

Right, we hear a lot about servant leadership. You know I like it. A lot of people do really good work on that. I think for me that you know the kind of things that most employees want from a leader are just to be developed. They want to be empowered, which also then contributes to development. They want to be able to collaborate and work together and then taking shared risks, the leader has to be. If you want to be able to collaborate and work together and then taking shared risks, the leader has to be. If you want to improve risk-taking, the leader has to be in it with them, right.

Speaker 2 32:23

Maybe not every step of the way. Maybe not every decision has to be made with the leader up front, but they have to be in it together to really kind of focus on that. You know shared risk. So that's really what that was about. And then for the leader to leader, they really do set the tone quite a bit right, and most times you know what happens in the organization is also happening at the leadership level. Maybe not always, but most times it is true that that way that's the way that it goes.

Speaker 2 32:58

So really, that leadership team has to be working in synergy with each other. They have to be in sync on change especially, so it can't be like, okay, this change isn't in my function, so I'm not too worried about it, or somebody complains, I'm just gonna like not have to deal with it. You have to be all in it, whether the change is happening to your function or not. Right, you have to be in sync with that and working together, uh, to make sure that that change is there. And then you have to model greater good behavior.

Speaker 2 33:33

So the model my model has greater good behavior. So the model, my model, has greater good behavior in it multiple places and it's really about service and it really starts with the leadership. If the leaders you know working in silos and they're really just trying to, you know, get the most for their function at the expense of the other functions, that's how their organization is going to behave as well, because that's how their organization is going to behave as well, because that's what they're seeing. So modeling that behavior where we're all in it together for the company, making sure that the company is prioritized and then the company to employee relationship, that one's more about systems and processes.

Speaker 2 34:13

So having things in place that promote the different things that you're trying to do and processes. So having things in place that promote the different things that you're trying to do, like collaboration. So having tools in place that help make it easier to collaborate, whether it's Microsoft Teams or SharePoint or something like that where you can share things easily, work on things together, you know, without like sending 500 emails and things like that. It's thinking that through and having a good strategy on that, so that when you go out and tell people we want you to collaborate, we want you to work together, you make it easy, you're not a big chore for them to do it. And then the other things is alignment. Alignment is so important, alignment is so important, and you do that mostly through your talent, processes like performance management how people are rewarded and things like that.

Speaker 2 35:02

And then learning is so important in organizations. Of course you should have an overall learning strategy, and it depends on the size of your company, the industry you're in, as to what exactly that looks like. But every organization should have feedback and coaching as part of their learning strategy. Those are not expensive to do. You can teach leaders to be coaches for not a lot of money and then, once they have some foundational skills in it, it doesn't cost much to implement, right? So it's using those two things, and feedback and coaching. I view them kind of want to continue on right. Feedback is for more simple things to help encourage or adjust behavior, and things like that. Once it gets a little bit harder to deal with, then you move more into a coaching mode. It doesn't always we don't have to think of coaching, as you know, executive level coaching with a, you know, nine month contract, right, it can be more in the moment, more ongoing and things like that. You know, especially when we think about a leader you know coaching their employees, so making sure that they do that.

Speaker 1 36:11

Yes, you know, while you were talking were you wanting to add something? You know, while you were talking, it so reminded me. You know, I come from the ground of fitness, nutrition, health coaching. It so reminds me. Kind of like a whole organism right. You have employee to employee, cell to cell. You have leader to employee. Let's say your heart that supplies a lot of stuff to a lot of cells. You have your leadership and you have your whole organism right, applies a lot of stuff to a lot of cells. You have your leadership and you have your whole organism right.

Speaker 1 36:40

And if you think about that, like, let's say, a cell decides to just engage in self-serving behavior, well, you get things like cancer. You know where does that lead? Like where everyone suffers. Or if, for example, a leader I don't know decides not to give blood and nutrients to the rest of the body, obviously, and nothing could have functioned right If it doesn't focus on that prime purpose of enabling the work of a lot of other cells. And then obviously we have the whole organism that needs to provide certain systems so the rest could function. And I feel like organization need to think of itself as exactly that. You know, yeah.

Speaker 2 37:24

I love that comparison. Yeah, that's really cool.

Speaker 1 37:27

Yes, and it's like I feel I I'm hearing also that all this you know relationship, the foundations to to build those good relationships. I think the major sort of concern or barrier is when anyone in the system starts to behave more in a self-serving way.

Speaker 2 37:49

Yes, yeah, 100% agree with that. Yeah, and that's why, really now in the environmental, so there's four environmental elements and the reason for those is because if you convince people to do, here is really leverage conformity theory.

Speaker 2 38:19

So, conformity theory shows that people will change behavior to get along and to be part of a group. There are two main studies people can look at if they want to dig in more. One is Milgram and he did a study around people that it wasn't really. They were trying to see if they could get people to, you know, behave in a certain way. But the advertised purpose of the study was to increase how people learn. So they would have a person in a room by themselves that was in on the the you know the ruse, so to speak, and they were supposed to repeat back a list of things, so the person that wasn't in on it they thought they were truly in a experiment to increase learning were truly in a experiment to increase learning uh, they were asked to shock the person every time they got a wrong answer.

Effective Communication in Organizations

Speaker 2 39:21

Oh yeah, box increased as it went up and it was clearly marked like danger and could cause death and things like that, and of course, the researcher that was in a room with the person. He was in on it too, but they would people, would shock people quite a bit, even to the level that said possible death on it, and the person in the room would scream and yell to go along with it. They weren't really getting shocked, but you would. It was surprising, like how many people would keep shocking the person, keep shocking the person. So obviously they were changing their behavior to fit in with the experiment and they clearly were told you're still going to get paid, you can quit whenever you want, but they would go along with it. The other, uh, one was by ash and he got people to give a wrong answer to a question.

Speaker 2 40:10

The answer was obvious, right, it was this length of a line yeah the answer was totally obvious.

Speaker 2 40:16

You had like nine people who were in on it told you the wrong answer. One person who went last didn't give you know, wasn't in on it, so they would give the wrong answer A high not every time, but a high percentage of the time. The person would give the wrong answer Right. So those are, you know, show that people will change behavior. Answer right. So those are, you know, show that people will change behavior. I try to flip that, though, and say let's create an environment where people do good right and make it an environment where relationships can thrive, and we don't have these people, you know, not acting in the greater good and making it bad for those who want to and preventing some from doing so.

Speaker 1 40:59

Yeah, it's such a powerful couple of examples and such a powerful concept. Now I always in my work I as well say you don't have to necessarily tell people what to do. You just do what you think is good for organization and maybe get a few people on board to do it together. Set the example and you'll be surprised how people on board to do it together set the example and you'll be surprised how many people would just do it without you telling, having to tell a word. It's uh, it's um. Such a powerful concept, yes, and those experiments also amazing. I always um give them as well.

Speaker 1 41:30

It just yeah, like mind-blowing what people would do when they want to fit in right, exactly Wild, yes, so let's. I actually would like to maybe, if you don't mind, do a little bit of practice here for our listeners, like in your work. You probably had this scenario many times where you would come in and you would maybe talk to a CEO or some other leader in their organization and they might be happy with, let's say, performance, but engagement is tanking. It feels like the mood of the organization is just not there and they feel like they need to change culture, relationships, something about human you know, human factor to make it more, I guess, tolerable and eventually to improve that performance, innovation, et cetera. Like where do you usually look first, like what might be the first couple of things that you think might be wrong and where you might start fixing things.

Speaker 2 42:36

Yeah, I'm very much a person who believes everything lives in a context, so I really start to, you know, ask a lot of questions, interests in general. So that's the mindset and I do always start from. The mindset of the leader might not be right start from the mindset of the leader might not be right A lot of times.

Speaker 2 42:58

You know leaders. You know they get paid to be decisive, they get paid to, you know, make decisions and kind of know what's going on. So a lot of times they do come with. They come more often probably with what they want the solution to be right.

Speaker 2 43:15

And they right. So they start there. But I always start with, you know, exploration. So I always come in and want to learn about what's going on, where the barriers are. It really should be tied to some type of business objective, you know, whether it's performance or different things like that. Usually there will be a business indicator that's showing that people aren't working together or they aren't happy, maybe retention isn't good, different things like that. So I do try to look for those. But then I really just try to figure out what's going on and in the initial phase of that it's just really kind of, you know, learn is the key word.

Speaker 2 44:00

I think in there, right, and you know it's kind of been my career really, even when I was an internal resource. I went from organization to organization really in situations where there wasn't much focus on people or no focus on people. So I've kind of gotten in that mindset where I have the process of coming in and learning what's going on. I do like to use data. So maybe they had an engagement survey recently, maybe they did some other type of work and some other assessments. I will try to bring that in. But then I also have, you know, different assessments based off of what our hypothesis is. You know that I can use to bring in there and to gain more information, but always trying to start with getting more voices in the room.

Speaker 2 44:51

So, rather than just you know one person like the CEO saying here's what I think we need to do, really trying to get more voices in the room and try to figure out what's happening and where things are working, where things aren't working.

Speaker 2 45:08

And then a lot of times focus groups are good for that and if you have some original data then you can guide the focus groups. If not, maybe you just do some more general focus groups to really kind of lay down that where are we currently and you'll find more opportunities than you can address. So what are the highest priorities, right, that are going to give you the most return for the least investment to make things better? So that's where I always start is for trying to learn from more than one person who may have brought me in, to figure out kind of what's going on and then what we do, and then from that you can build a vision of where you want to go, try to start predicting some of the things that you want to, a lot of times checking in along the way with certain groups and help guide you along the way. Really kind of then helps you figure out what are the things that we're going to work on to make things better.

Speaker 1 46:11

Yes, thank you so much, you know, for explaining like a little bit of a process, because when I talk to leaders they always want to know like, ok, well, you come in and what exactly are you going to do? Right, people want to understand, like what it involves so they could also assess, like how much resources they need, time, et cetera. Get your data, you know, you get some insights and you create a vision. What are some maybe usual interventions that you might start with in companies to adjust things? Whether that's, you know, beliefs, relationships, environment, combination of things, whether that's like workshops, rearranging, I don't know work processes, workflows. What are some of the things?

Speaker 2 46:57

Yeah, there's probably a whole laundry list of it. Some of the main ones a lot of times it does come back to training, right.

Speaker 2 47:05

So sometimes there's training, but you know I like your word workshops probably better, probably more people here training. But anything that I do is going to be very interactive. It's going to be, you know, uncovering things, helping people explore things, versus just sitting and listening to someone. So it is a lot of times it is, you know, workshops and things like that and then sometimes it's, you know, kind of working more with a team, right, and doing some more team-focused things. You know, obviously workshops are more geared towards probably a whole organization and things like that.

Speaker 2 47:46

A lot of times if things are not well, sometimes you really have to kind of get in, especially if you figure out, like it's you know the leadership team themselves are struggling with something. You know I really like to start there and work on that first and those are probably going to be. You know, some sessions. A lot of times assessments will help get data that you then talk through, but those are more probably. You know I'll always have a plan and a structure, but those types of interventions are probably less structured and less planned out and really more the structure is more about getting things on the table that you have to get on the table A lot of times people are hesitant to address things in the right way and you know, don't fully share kind of hold back and that doesn't, you know, help relationships obviously.

Speaker 2 48:43

So it's then getting them to you know, to bring those things and get them on the table so that you can deal with them and get them done. So it usually ends up being a series of workshops. What exactly is in those depends on you know what you're trying to fix, and then again it depends on if you're going to go after you know the broader organization or the leadership team had come together, several functions has brought into one and they were operating in silos and they couldn't stop it.

Practical Steps to Build Better Relationships

Speaker 2 49:20

So the leader brought me in to help fix the organization and I quickly realized it was the leadership team and this isn't unique, right, this happens a lot of times. They were actually kind of working in silos as well. So I had to go back to them and then, you know, say I think we need to do some work here first. So they agreed to it, fortunately, and so there what that looked like which will give you an even deeper example of how it might look is, you know, took them through an assessment, went through the results. It really kind of uncovered some behaviors that were getting in their way. So we worked through those.

Speaker 2 49:59

And then throughout that we did some you know kind of workshop intervention things that I mentioned before, where we kind of everybody's in the room and, you know we're working through issues that came up and were identified and, you know, figuring out paths forward. And then I did one-on-one coaching. I did one-on-one interviews with them before all that, and then I did one-on-one coaching with everybody on the leadership team Once they got together and started seeing how their behaviors were holding the organization back. Then we went to work on the organization and there it started with, you know focus groups, you know what are the barriers, where is it working well, where is it not working well? And then we looked for the areas where it was working and then we tried to learn from that, like why do?

Speaker 2 50:50

these groups do, okay, right, but yet these groups don't. So we learned from both ways and then we did develop some communications, a lot of communications. I would say in that case, um, and then just you know, some workshops and things like that too. So you know, it was like that's how we got kind of the whole organization. Then you know to be more, break down the silos and see that, wait a minute, we all have this common goal up here and that's what we need to focus on.

Speaker 1 51:22

Yeah, thank you for sharing. You know so much detail. A lot of leaders you know just want to follow up on this question. They're worried that, okay, we're going to get involved, like our leadership going to get involved, we're going to get some coaching, some worship, et cetera. The question I would get often like but how do you scale right from the leadership all the way to front lines and especially relationship? Like, how do you scale that? What did you find working?

Speaker 2 51:51

I'll use, because I did the intervention that I didn't share in that same scenario and I've done it multiple times and I love it, so I'll use this example uh, coach leader as coach.

Speaker 2 52:03

So that's where I implemented uh, you know, that was part of the training that we implemented was getting uh leaders to be good coaches so that they could address those situations as they came up and help people through them in a more productive way, right, and get them again, moving them from have to do it, have to collaborate, work together, so wanting to, and then all the way down, uh, deeper yet, which is, uh, you know, really, where they want to, not just willing to, but want to, and so that, yeah, you know, because you're right, it was a big organization, so you know that's how we scaled. That was to, you know, not just communicate what we were doing, why we were doing, what the benefits were. Of course that was important, but then getting those leaders to be better coaches, rather than answer givers right and get, help people work through those issues and help them, uh, you know, to move to a more collaborative approach yes, um, that's what I would you know.

Speaker 1 53:08

Also, things like scaling in. In my work I try to do the same. Okay, you can't work, perhaps, with every single person in the organization, but you can give certain basic skills of coaching or feedback, uh, to people on leaders on different levels so they could scale all the way to all the levels of the organization. That, yeah, thank you for sharing this. Um, brian, um, I'm also thinking, uh, how do you always, always best get the value from the book you know, from your work, to our listeners? And one of my favorite questions is what you wish I'd ask you about your book, about your work that you really want to get out into the world, and I might not have asked about it. What is like one question you wish I'd ask?

Speaker 2 53:56

Um, I think one question I like to answer anyways is uh, you know what? I hope what success for the book looks like.

Speaker 1 54:04

Yeah, so what success, for the book looks like.

Speaker 2 54:06

I like that one a lot and it really I. I would rather sell fewer books and have people implement things, even if it's on their own. Of course I'm always available to come help and I love doing the work. So you know I would enjoy that and that's what I love to do. But even if people just take the concepts of the book and take action I do mention that throughout the book I'm very action oriented and results driven. So if people you know, rather have fewer people get it, actually internalize the concepts and at least implement something Right, even if they're not going to do a full blown implementation, like there are nuggets in there that you can help improve your relationship. So you know, if people would just improve their relationship through some of the concepts in the book, that's for me that would be the biggest success. The book, for me that would be the biggest success.

Speaker 1 55:00

Yes, implementation, you know, is the key to any change, to anything we want to create, whether that's relationships or change of mindset, change of culture. And speaking about that, you know your book better and your work better than anyone else. Perhaps, if our listeners are listening to this podcast, they love the concept, they agree with all of that they hear. Where would you suggest them start? Perhaps even before reading the book? Where could they start to start improving relationships? Let's say it's in the organization. Maybe it's in a team, or they lead a team, or maybe it's a CEO who's working on improving culture. Where would you start improving relationships? Maybe one or two key elements, steps. I love that question.

Speaker 2 55:50

I think one of the mindsets, so one of the environmental elements is mindsets, and there's five mindsets and the one that I think is very important and gets to your question of you know how could I just do something quickly and right and just just to improve a relationship, and it's relationships matter most and that's one of my favorites and it comes out of uh, he doesn't say it like this, but I say it differently than he does, but it's based off of John Gottman's research and years ago he studied he works in marriage counseling and he started asking himself the question how can I predict if couples are going to make it when they come to me? How can I predict if they're going to make it long term? Of course, answering that question would help you then counsel them is why he was interested in that question and he ended up deciding and now I'm going to use my words, not his how they fight, how they disagree, is kind of what happens and that's where it's the most important part. And that's where it's the most important part. If they protect the relationship and value the relationship throughout the disagreement even if it's passionate positives, comments, compliments, things like that to one negative, those relationships also were going to last longer. So right if, if the arguments and disagreements got personal and you know, with personal attacks and demeaning and like things like that, those were the couples that weren't going to make it. But if they protected their relationship, you could get pretty passionate about disagreeing with somebody and still make it.

Service as a Core Value for Organizations

Speaker 2 57:54

And then the five to one really is based off of, you know, biology. The five to one really is based off of, you know, biology, our brains and I talk about this in different ways in the book but our brains are wired to survive, which is good, because then it means we survive, Right. But sometimes when we think about our relationships, it kind of gets in the way, and this is the one where it does, because we tend to hang on to negative information. More keeps us out of danger, which is good. But then, you know, it also works when we just have a relationship with somebody.

Speaker 2 58:26

You know, if they share one negative thing to us, it's like it's out of proportion, Right? We, we put more emphasis on that than the other ones. We, you know, when we were complimented and encouraged and things like that. And the five to one was the ratio that, through his research, he came up with. There are different studies that have studied that outside of marriage and more in organizations, and you see it anywhere from five to one to seven to one, and it's not a matter of going out and ticking it off every time you do it. It doesn't have to be that exact, but just in general.

Speaker 1 59:05

The idea is to give more compliments than critical feedback, and I think you know you highlighted a very important core idea that I think if people just remember that, they'll do a lot of things right, and that's the idea that relationship is the most important thing. Right? And if you focus on how can you make this relationship that is happening right now better because of this communication, I think we'll get a lot of things right. Yes, Because what you focus on, usually that's what you're going to get right, and if you focus on creating good relationship, no matter what, then that's probably what you're going to get closer to. There is this also saying you know, I like to this point do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

Speaker 1 59:54

Yes, I don't like it for me you know the same like relationship, Do you want to preserve this relationship, but just be right right, absolutely.

Speaker 2 1:00:04

I love that yeah, I think this. Yeah, the second one. I'd like to share a second one on that. Yeah, it's such a great question, and that the second one I will pull out is commonality transcends differences and this is.

Speaker 2 1:00:18

I'm really focused on this one because over you know, I'm old enough to remember when we focus more on our differences and then we kind of got away from it and now we're more back to it and I think overly focusing on differences isn't our best choice. But I think differences do matter and I think they should be talked about. And I love the phrase celebrate our differences. I think we should and they can be interesting. But I first came across this during my master's degree.

Speaker 2 1:00:49

We had to go to Europe and study in several different universities and we worked with students from there and we did a couple of mini consulting gigs over there and things like that. One of our assignments before we left was to, once we got back, write an essay on all the cultural differences that we saw throughout our time there. The students from there had the same assignment because every time we had free time we would start talking about all the cultural differences, which was fun, interesting. We liked it. But what I noticed was, as the groups, we would start running out of those differences and then start talking about what we had in common as human beings, right, like wanting to feel valued at work and contributing at work, our families, our children, our spouses and the.

Speaker 2 1:01:36

The energy was different, right, even though the conversation had been going on longer, the energy was higher there, right, even though the conversation had been going on longer, the energy was higher. There was more laughter, more smiling. So again, not that one was bad and one was good, but I just really thought you know what? It's our commonality that brings us together, then allows us to celebrate our differences, right? It's not the other way around, and I think it's one of those times in life where the order is super important. So when we start from our commonalities, right, that brings us together, and then the differences just become interesting and add flavor as opposed to being divisive.

Speaker 1 1:02:13

Yes, such a good point. You know the order matters more. Again, back to health. I spent so much time in it that it always pops up in my mind Again. We have all these different ways that we can be well and we need a slightly different care, but at the end of the day, 99.9% of our DNA is the same right, and so what every one of us needs to thrive is actually pretty similar. So I feel like the same with the relationship. Yes, we have our differences in our personalities, individual things we like, dislike, but, at the end of the day, core things. And then what I also learned traveling and living in 15 countries.

Speaker 1 1:02:54

People say, like how things are different. I'm like you know, I noticed we are more the same than we are different. Yes, very true. So, yeah, such, once again, an important thought and something to put in practice. When you focus on how we are similar and you know this old saying like don't do to others as you don't want to be done to yourself, or do to others as you do want to do, that it works. Probability that what makes you happy is going to make the other person happy is very high. So, yeah, thank you, brian, for sharing all this wisdom. Is there anything else that you'd like to share before we wrap up? I'm obviously going to ask about where people can go and connect with your book, et cetera, but in terms of your book, the concept that you wrote about something you're passionate to bring into this world, is there anything else that I haven't asked about?

Speaker 2 1:03:51

No, I think the only way, I think the way I would just kind of summarize it up is to try to get people interested in the book, in the concepts, but just doing more work in organizations. I really have a heart for trying to make our organizations more valuable. Right, I think we're losing a little bit the understanding, the value of work, and so I think that you know, trying to get people more engaged in understanding the value of their work, and that I think that you know trying to get people more engaged in understanding the value of their work and that's really one of the other environmental elements that we didn't touch on was purpose and really kind of get that alignment of. You know what I do impacts the function, impacts the company, impacts the world in some way. So I think you know that helps bring us back to a place where you know we feel like we're getting value from work. It's not just something we're doing to go and collect a paycheck so we can buy food. It's, there's more value to it than that.

Speaker 2 1:04:52

And then the other thing I think I would share is just, you know, service shows up in a lot of places. So if you get the book and read it, you'll see it shows up in the mindset. It shows up in the lot of places. So if you get the book and read it, you'll see it shows up in the mindsets. It shows up in the purpose of the relationships and it really is.

Speaker 2 1:05:11

You should think about serving the organization the function the team and then yourself and not flipped up Again. There's probably unique situations where maybe you do have to prioritize one over the other, but in general like this kind of mindset of service and making sure that we're working on the greater good for you know, the organization, I think would be the other key takeaway yes, you know, it's such a great takeaway.

Speaker 1 1:05:47

I remember watching this movie. The movie was philosophical, but there was this phrase I loved service. There is no greater purpose, right? I think we all remember that while approaching our life or our work, and we come into that from this perspective it's not just going to work better or workplace better, it's also going to make us happier, feel like we're useful, that our work is meaningful, that that's actually almost everything that we need to be happy and thrive. And I think that also helps to build good relationship when you focus on serving others, serving the purpose, serving your function.

Speaker 1 1:06:35

Yeah, thank you, brian, again for writing this book. I believe such a needed book in our world of AI and technology seemingly dominating. I also believe that actually to make it all work, even technology, to make us thrive with all this technology, we need to focus on the human factor, and the biggest factor in humanity is relationships, that how we build societies, organizations and create a lot of value. So thank you again, brian, for writing the book, for sharing Again. Congratulations for launching it. Now a few other couple of questions when people should go to get your book and then also to connect with your work. Is there anything else they should do to connect with you, with your work?

Speaker 2 1:07:28

yeah, obviously, in the book and in the back there's different ways to connect and reach out. So you can get it there. The book is available on amazon or other retailers, but definitely you can grab it on Amazon. You can get off of our website. So, bshtalentsolutionscom you can. You know there's a section there to buy the book. You can also learn more about our approach, how we think about things. You know the different things that we do, which includes, you know, speaking engagements, consulting and executive search. We also do executive search, because who you bring in obviously has a big impact on your culture, so that's why we like to focus on that as well, and you can learn more about that on the website and just reach out. There's a contact form on the website. I'm not a high pressure salesperson, I'm not a. You know you talk to me once and then you get 10 emails a day from me kind of a person either.

Speaker 2 1:08:27

So if you want to just call and talk through some things and have a casual conversation, don't hesitate to do that as well.

Speaker 1 1:08:36

Okay, and I'm going to link all of this in the show notes your website and maybe Amazon if it's the best place to get the book. And yes, brian, again thank you so much for decades of your work and for writing a book releasing all your knowledge and experience into the world. Just let's build cultures and workplaces where people thrive, bringing more impact and positive results to the organization as well. So thank you so much for coming as a guest to the show.

Speaker 2 1:09:13

Yeah, thank you very much for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation and I appreciate the opportunity to share some of my thoughts and ideas with others.

Speaker 1 1:09:23

Yeah, thank you so much, brian Until next time, yeah, bye.