Real Progress VS Busy Work with Tim Herbig: how to connect strategy, the right metrics and discovery to build what you want - Impactful Products, Beach Body or Meaningful Life.

Busy isn’t the same as better.

We sat down with product strategist, coach and consultant, and now a pubslihed author Tim Herbig to unpack a simple truth: real progress with impact that matters happens when strategy, metrics, and discovery align.

If you lead change across a product, a platform team, culture or your own habits - you’ll leave with a clearer way to choose what to focus on, what to measure, and what to learn.

Say no with confidence. Retire progress theater. And build momentum you can be proud of.

Key Insights:

• Context beats templates every time - "better practices" for your situation matter more than copying what worked for someone else
• Strategy’s real job is helping people say yes and no fast
• The "why" question is ruthlessly effective - if you can't explain why you're doing something, you're probably just checking boxes
• AI helps you reach hard problems faster but only if you're ready to actually solve them instead of automating busywork
• How to spot progress theater before it drains your energy and budget 

... also how to choose a better strategy for your beach body in 2026 and a lot more!

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TIM'S BIO

Tim Herbig is a product management coach, consultant, and author who helps teams make evidence-informed decisions by connecting strategy, OKRs, and discovery. For over a decade, he worked in various in-house and consulting roles across publishing, professional networking, and enterprise B2B SaaS. Tim's work has helped organizations from Lufthansa Group Digital Hangar to early-stage startups move from following "best practices" to developing better practices suited to their context that led to desired impact. Tim writes a popular weekly newsletter and is the author of "Real Progress: How to Connect the Dots of Product Strategy, OKRs, and Discovery." He lives by 3 core values: integrity (doing what you say), curiosity (going down rabbit holes), and sincerity (being honest even when it's hard).

5) CALL TO ACTION & RESOURCES

Ready to move from alibi progress to real progress?

Connect with Tim's work:

• Newsletter: https://herbig.co/newsletter (Weekly insights on strategy, OKRs, and discovery)
• Book: "Real Progress: How to Connect the Dots of Product Strategy, OKRs, and Discovery"
• Website: https://herbig.co/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/herbigt

Mentioned in the episode:

• Petra Willa's PM Wheel concept
• James Clear's quote on context-dependent advice
• Ravi Mehta's concept of "market interrupt moments"
• Gibson Biddle's Strategy/Metric/Tactic framework

Tim's homework for you:

Start by asking one question this week: "Why are we doing this?" Then see if you can connect your answer to actual measurements and learning. That's where real progress begins.  

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Transcript

Meet Tim Herbig And The Big Idea

Product Lessons For Life And Change

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hello and welcome back to another episode of ChangeWhy Podcast. My name is Angela Shorina. I'm your host. I'm your partner in change, personal and collective evolution, and your executive coach at 360. And today I have a treat for you. Yes, we have another guest on Change Wire Podcast, Tim Herbeck, who writes about product strategy, building software, setting all the art, one might say pretty niche and boring stuff. But as you sort of listen to this podcast, you hopefully start thinking as I did, wait, this isn't just about products. This is about everything. This is about life. How we set goals, how we know if we're actually moving forward or going in circles, how we avoid fooling ourselves into thinking we're making progress when we are really just busy. I wanted to have a team on Changewire Podcast because it's figure out a really cool framework for making real progress. Not just in building products, but in anything you are trying to transform. It all comes down to three things working together strategy, metrics, and discovery. And we're gonna dive into what those words mean and how you can apply it, not just again to building products or services, but strategy for anything you want to change in life. Tim shows how these concepts are supposed to talk to each other. If you're leading any kind of change in your team, in your organization, your own life, you'll hear something that shifts how you think about getting from here to there. Tim spent over a decade working in product management before becoming a coach and a consultant, and now a published author of the book Real Progress that we are talking about on this podcast. He also writes a weekly newsletter that you actually want to read because it brings value with every word. This conversation goes deep into details, but it always stays practical. We talk about AI, we talk about beach buddies, we talk about why best practices might be the very thing that's holding you back. So grab your drink of choice, find your favorite listening spot, and let's dive in. This is Changewired, and today we are talking about making real progress. Progress that makes some impact. Team, uh, welcome to Changewired Podcast. So glad to have you here.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yes, you know, I was very excited to invite you to the podcast after reading a couple of your articles, reading your book, exploring your work. One of the biggest reasons is because on this podcast, Changewired, we are passionate about change, evolution, uh collective unlocking of more of our potential. And any sort of directed evolution and development or change not possible without a good strategy. B some sort of metrics, and C discovery process in such you know complex thing as our life or our businesses. And when I was reading your book and your articles, I'm like, yeah, this is about product and and building things, services or product. But then it also feels like it's so relatable to life in general. And and I'm curious, yeah, did you have this? I don't know, were you thinking also about maybe bigger theme of your book, not just the scope of it?

SPEAKER_01 4:09

That's a really good question. I don't think I consciously, I would say I probably didn't do it consciously. And now that you're laying it out, I think it makes a lot of sense. The the thing that I use as a as a pattern in the book, and I think this is true for a lot of other things, is when I when I work with clients and they tell me about a different way of working, the different thing they want to establish. What I encourage them to do is to think of the way of working like a product. So basically, what's the vision for this way of working? Like how do you want people to behave differently? What are the levers you would pull, your strategy to implement this kind of change? How would you track whether you've achieved this change or not? And then, of course, very much connected is to identify the levers you would use to get closer to the vision. Like what kind of problems are you trying to solve?

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

And so I think in that regard, uh if I can apply this kind of trinity, so to speak, to if I can apply this to ways of working, I think it's very much applicable to other things in life as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Yes, because at the end of the day, no matter what we're trying to achieve, it's uh it's a project. One might say it's some kind of product. Yeah, exactly. A journey. And unless you want your journey to be like very chaotic and never sure where it is you're gonna end up, then you gotta have some strategy to to get you to a specific destination. Um let's leave that for a moment. Uh we're gonna get again to your book very soon. Um I'd like to know, as our listeners probably too, where did it all start? Like I know you you spent quite a lot of to quite a huge chunk of your life in product, uh, in different roles, but then maybe even earlier, like how did this whole passion for product development and your work now start it?

SPEAKER_01 5:58

That's a really good question. I think the like like many people, I I stumbled into product management. In 2010, I worked at a company at a marketing agency, and they built an internal tool. And someone was, we gotta use Scrum now to build this, like an agile methodology. And you're gonna be the product owner. I had no idea what that meant. I think, frankly, neither did the company in full. And so we tried to figure that out, but it didn't really work out that well. But the thing that I always had always already back then is I I would say I always had a strong affinity for digital products. Like I liked using nice things. And so I always am very, very curious. And so when I started to work in this in this company back then, I worked a lot on mobile advertising technologies, for example. And I I quickly found myself having more thoughts about this topic than I could share at work. So I was looking for other outlets to share that because I am a I'm a very I I process with writing. It's just power thick. And so I was looking for outlets to write about these thoughts that I had, about how things were related and certain methodologies and everything. And I quickly started to write on another blog. And then from that, writing became a very natural habit of me, uh, of my work. And so over time, I think back in 2012, 2013, and then turned my attention even more to writing about product management. Not with a specific goal even in mind, but just for me to process the things I experienced throughout the week or throughout the months at work. And I like to joke that I think in 2016 I started writing a weekly newsletter, which I still keep going to this day. And people always ask me, how do I come up with ideas? And the most honest answers, it's the experiences throughout the week. Like most of the time, the thing I'm I'm writing about is related to something I experienced the previous week. And um, I have that at the same time. Like I think as in other areas of life, whenever I get to experience something, like my favorite way of processing it is writing it down either in a notebook or writing it in a WhatsApp message to a friend, for example.

Discovery, OKRs, And Strategy Converge

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Yes, it's uh yeah, I love reading your newsletters by the way. That's uh one of those newsletters where you actually get value and it makes you think differently and makes you learn, and it very much feels like a lived experience. Yeah, it's yes, it's yeah, I can so relate also to thinking through writing. That's why I also have daily blog. It's like every day I have something that I am thinking about, and so in writing, it's like putting it the into something you can see and then deconstructing and thinking deeper about different concepts. Yes, so that that's you know how your interest in product developed in writing and moving forward. How did your interest maybe start in developing for this like a specific combination of I guess I'm not sure if it's product strategy, product building, like how did you combine strategy and goals and discovery that into this you know beautiful process that has these uh three elements?

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Yeah, it's an interesting organic journey, I would say. I think uh when I worked as an in-house product manager and head of product, I always enjoyed the I enjoyed many parts of my work, but I definitely had a big knack for for the discovery aspect. Like I enjoyed understanding things through qualitative research, quantitative research. Like I'm fortunate that interviewing customers always came relatively easy to me. Doesn't mean I'm always always good at it, but it came easy to me. So I enjoyed that part and untangling things. So discovery always felt like a very natural thing. And the big like metrics or OKRs came in a bit of a sneaky way because in in 20, I think 2015, 2016, I the company I worked at, I got a new boss. And then on the reflection of this transition, I learned that our boss previously had used some version of OKRs with us, which sparked my curiosity about OKRs as a framework. And then I got into it and realized, oh, that's that's actually interesting. And then I got very curious of how to put that into practice over the years and tried to implement it in various different teams that I that I had to use. I would say that one of the biggest tipping points that led me to this like this trinity kind of um focus for me came from when in 2016 I changed jobs, I almost accidentally joined a consultancy. It was supposed to be a different kind of company, but became a consultancy. And what I found myself having to do after having worked for years only with other product people is now having to adjust how I explain the things that were natural to me to others, to educate them, to actually get them to do the thing differently. And so I had to give workshops and training and coaching just intuitively. I never did a training on that. And through that, I realized, okay, this is like again, this comes I like to go after things that come easy to me, as in there's a natural pull, a natural, natural gravitation towards. And it was around that I found myself getting pulled most often to this topic of problem understanding, measuring success. And then eventually, a couple of years later, realized how much like how big the leverage of strategy is on both of these things. Right. Of course, you can, you don't always have to start there, but the leverage is quite strong. And so I honestly I ended up doing like I it's this this age-old overlap of like what comes net kind of natural to me, what do I believe is important, and what do I see companies struggle with. And then from that, like these are the three core topics that that I sort of like landed on. And it's also because I'm convinced that they are so interconnected and that so many of the issues in one domain can be solved or at least guided by these other domains.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Yes, and I love, you know, in your book, you have um this graphic of progress wheel.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

And certain questions that, or I guess, challenges that people have and the questions that they can ask themselves, and it usually relates to the other area. How did that come to be? It's when you look at it, it feels so intuitive. And then, but coming up with that obviously different.

Building The Progress Wheel

SPEAKER_01 12:07

In hindsight, everything feels intuitive, right? I think the I think when I first started, the funny thing is with the book, I think it took me two years to write the book, but it was very the initial idea, it's very close to the result that I produced, which is cool. So I don't have clarity around what I wanted to put in the book. So it was more about how do I package it essentially. And I had this idea of a wheel kind of framework relatively early on. And it was inspired by a friend of mine, Petra Wille, who is a fantastic product leadership coach. And in her first book, she has this tool that she calls the PM wheel, the product manager wheel, which is a different purpose. It's a diagnostic tool to help with personal development of product managers. So I always thought, like, oh, there's so many canvases already. And like, because the problem for me is that the three domains are not linear. There's not a linear one, two, three steps. So I wanted something that was like positioned all of them on an equal level and showcase the non-linearity. And actually, then it was, I think it was it was my wife during a family vacation where she basically gave me the core idea of here's all these things, like this the question and connection kind of thing. So that's how I how it came to be. But it took a long time before I actually got to defining it in detail because I first wanted to write the the three core chapters of the book, so to speak. And then I wanted to return to the progress wheel, and then I weaved it into the rest of the book.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Yes, well again, now it all makes sense, but in the insight. The other uh question I had for you is can you uh define also for our listeners what what for you is strategy? So that's the first question. And then why do you feel that it is important for people to always connect the strategy, the OKR so metrics that people use to discovery and not treating them as separate entities?

What Strategy Really Is For Teams

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Two really good questions. I think the first one the first question is like what is strategy? I think a couple of years ago I might have pointed to a specific shape of a strategy, a specific way of how it's articulated. And the the more I work with the topic, the more I realize how almost irrelevant the actual shape is. I've seen tremendously clear strategies on one or two pages in a Google Doc. Just very clearly written out. I've seen strategies who used a great framework or template, but didn't really convey much. And so what I try to always come back to, because I think it's also the problem is that your customers don't really care about your strategy. So you're not writing it for your customers. You're writing it for your team members, your direct reports, whoever you're working with, right? So just like a product, when we try to think of a product, it has to work for the audience eventually. So just like with the strategy, it's like, okay, it has to work for my colleagues, it has to work for Tim in this department or for Andrea in this department, whatever. And I think that's the important thing to then reverse engineer it, okay, how in our company, how do we convey strategy? Like what's the format that really sticks in our company? It could be a visual framework, it could be a one pager, it could be presentation, whatever it is. It doesn't really matter. Because from then you want to think about, okay, what does it have to achieve for people? And there are different interpretations. Like I'm convinced that the more I work with it, is that the core value it has to provide is to help people say no or yes to certain opportunities. Right. So when something comes along your way, you want to be sure that, oh, yeah, I'm going to pursue this, I'm not going to pursue this. And I think coming backwards from all of that then dictates the shape, what information you put in there, how you put it together, and all that kind of stuff. That's what I see. That's what I think it has to be. So always try to work backwards from other certain formats the company has in place. What's the point if I work with a company and they are very set on a certain framework, how they articulate strategy, but I come in with a different one, and then it might be well articulated, but it fails to convey the message because no one reads it, because it's the wrong format. So I try to come backwards from that, and I try to marry in a way the format that works in the company and the core questions I believe should be in there, and then try to try to find that overlap. To back to your second question, like how these things are connected, right? I think it's and that's I try to answer that in the progress wheel, is that because I think this the some of the more common questions or struggles you might find in companies of why quote unquote strategy doesn't work, right? And I mean there's a I think there's a content aspect that you might have made the wrong choices about your audience, your differentiation, whatever. The problem is these things no one knows, anyways, from the get-go, right? It's like no one knows it. So the only thing you can focus on is how can you increase your chances of it succeeding? And I think there are two levers that you have, right? One is, of course, that ideally there's less, fewer parts of your strategy are completely unproven and fully assumed rather than at least informed by some kind of information. Doesn't mean you always have to do like a month-long market analysis, but at least that's some kind of informed conviction of like, yeah, here's where we go for this thing. And it's this informed conviction could be it's because that's what we're uniquely good at as a company, it is what we know our time customers want, it's what showcases our capabilities. That's perfectly fine. And the other aspect is that the execution of that strategy is not aligned with the choice that you made, right? Yeah, you set the strategy, but you do different things still. And I think that's where where metrics can be very helpful, to say, okay, like here are the indicators, the measurable indicators that would help us to see if the strategy has worked or not. And we we're going to use these measurable indicators to check if the stuff we're doing goes in the right direction. Right? You can say our strategy is to branch into this new market, then you build something, it's like, does it help us branch into this new market? And you don't really know. But if you translate branching into this new market in the number of customers from this new industry or retention rate or revenue, then you can check, oh, we launched these five features and we you can link it to these metrics.

Leading Vs Lagging Indicators Explained

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Yeah. So it also reminds me uh so much if there's just like coaching in general. Let's say someone trying to achieve great health, well, that is their outcome. So the strategy, well, you gotta have some informed framework for to design the things that you're gonna do that's gonna be immensely helpful instead of just trying a bunch of things that you're not sure of. And then, so that's you know, the I guess where discovery can also help. Yeah, and and then uh metrics, you gotta uh measure something to figure out if you are actually moving towards that or not moving anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Agreed. I think it's it's it's it's it's funny that you bring this up because I think it's one of the easiest examples I often use in workshops to articulate the non-product angle, just to understand the concept, right? If you say you have something like I want to have a perfect beach buddy by next year, summer, right? It's like cool, that's maybe where you want to go. And then you can discuss the strategies to get there, right? And that depends on the type of person you are. Are you, do you enjoy cardio? Probably maybe, maybe you don't. Do you enjoy going to the gym? Okay, so what what exercise strategy works for you? What kind of dietary preferences do you naturally have to get into a caloric deficit, for example? Like that could be the some strategies you choose. And from then you could then set because the metric should not be lose, like have this kind of body fat or this kind of weight in nine months, because that's lagging. What you need along the way is how often do I work out? Do I improve the reps or the the weight and able to lift in the gym? How often do I hit my caloric deficit? How many steps do I take? This is the stuff you could track, you could actually use to track your progress along the way and to see if this strategy has worked. If, for example, you say my dietary preference is trying to do A keto diet, uh, but with a keto diet, I routinely fail to come into caloric deficit. Maybe you need a new diet, right? The caloric deficit.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

So and that also speaks back to the point, like you might have some good strategies that work for somebody, but you might try them and measure things, and it you might find out that it actually doesn't work for you. So it yeah, you know, it's not an indication that the thing is not possible or the strategy doesn't work. It's just the strategy did not work for your specific context. Exactly. Which you also write a lot about, about you know, contexts and best practices.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

You know, can you maybe exp expand on that, on context, best practices? And also, I I actually remember I found your work when I read an article about leading and legging indicators. I think that was like the best article I saved yet. I'm probably gonna be rereading it. It's the first time I think I really understood the concept and uh how complex it is. So, could you also explain on that what are some good ways to set the leading and legging indicators? Because it seems like intuitive some more that leading is something you can you know measure and track every day, legging is something that's more of like delayed. But then also you explain, for example, that if you work in an organization or what you might have different leading and legging indicators depending on from what side you look at them, like at what level, right? So love to to hear how yeah, happy to to touch first on the context and practices topic, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:38

And I think what I what I often find in my career is like commonly there's this saying about like best practices, right? And I think the the the issue oftentimes is that the best practices are not contextual, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Yeah.

Context Over Best Practices

SPEAKER_01 21:49

I think there's this great quote from James James Keel, who wrote atomic habits, and he said um advice, uh I probably missed this up. He said advice is context-dependent, but questions are context-independent essentially. And I think that's a problem, right? I can't give people advice across industries, across company sites. Like I just can't. I can't say this is a universal rule. And so I I started to use the term better practices to acknowledge the context. Like it's not about universal best, it's about relatively better. Like, what does better in your context mean, right? If a team says, look, if you would say universal advisors, talk to 10 customers every week, but you're a team who does the enterprise level B2B work, you're like, and you talk to no customer right now, you maybe you're really good if you talk to three people every week. That would be better already, right? Compared to trying to chase 10 and you get lost on the journey. I think that's very crucial, as particularly since I in my work, I early on I decided I wanted to stay relatively broad with the type of companies that I work with, not focus on, let's say, I don't know, e-commerce or SaaS. Because I think that a lot of principles are very universally applicable. And I personally enjoy this challenge of rethinking how do I translate this principle into the tactics required for this team. So personal preference to do that. And then what I did in the book, I worked with these like quality checks and questions. I tried to implement questions on like, yeah, okay, in your context, ask yourself these questions and potentially dig deeper into how could you how to how could you move forward.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Which is such a powerful coaching technique that I loved in your book.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

And it was interesting because I had it first in the book and it was in the draft. I think it was routinely the best, uh the most exciting piece in the book. Beta readers talk about. Like, like this is good, this is good, but these things, they are great. I uh I enjoyed that as well. On top of leading lagging indicators, like this topic first caught my attention. I think in I don't know, I think 2020 or 2019, something like that. Because of the product work that I was doing, like I talked a lot about OKRs, and I then you oftentimes have this problem of this misalignment between setting a goal and measuring the goal, but it not being aligned with the cadence of the work of a team.

unknown 24:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

So you set a very high-level goal. It's it's like with the beach body we just had. It's the same problem, right? Like, how do I know tomorrow that I'm on track to the beach body next summer? The the way the scale doesn't tell me. Yeah. And so that's what sparked my interest. And then I did a bit of research just on the topic because it was not a new term, but I found often that the term was explained very academic in a way. And I think to me, it missed this new young reality of the teams that I got to meet, like this massive reality, just like you said, like you have a team that has an internal customer, external, B2B, or B2C, and they always read these examples. This is what a leading indicator is, but they could not get these metrics. So they were like, we're failing. I was like, that's not true. Because if you have a metric that is relatively more leading than what your company has, then it is useful for you. So I wanted to like part of that, and it's part of that I try to bring more into my content over and over, is I try to produce content in a way that teams who might feel, let's say, underrepresented, feel heard or seen. Right. Because I think back to the topic of best practices, a lot of things talk about the great examples out there.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

A common example for me is teams who work on internal products, for example. They oftentimes don't are not represented in most content out there. It's like a couple of years ago with B2B. No one talked about B2B, now people talk more about it. And I think that's what motivated me to showcase, instead of writing 20 articles for every context, to say, let me try to produce, put it into one approach that people can take into their context. And just showing a few examples. And yeah, this context of lag and leading indicators is, I love it so much because it's so universal, it's independent of product, as we just established. Yeah. And yet, it and it's so powerful, and yet it's often so misunderstood.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Yes. And I was actually looking for you know the information in that when I was working on culture design. Right. Because the problem is there, you have a lot of values or lagging indicators that are very lagging, right? And you uh need to measure something to make sure that you are moving somewhere. Otherwise, like a lot of companies end up working for decades on the same thing and not for sure if they moved somewhere. Yeah, and I found that is very useful. Useful concept strategy, a way to explain it, something that I could also use. And also love, you know, the concept that you just explained about like better. I have this phrase better is always available. Like you cannot guarantee a lot of things, but if you put intentional action and you measure it to track, you're gonna end up somewhere better. Exactly. Yeah, agreed. Or at least you know, you learned something for the next uh so yes, that's again. I don't know if you had something here to to add to that. Or I'm gonna continue with my questions. Another you know thing that came to mind while I was preparing for the interview is this idea of I I love uh how you framed a strategy is ability to say no to a lot of things that uh you know coming from our world, like ideas, we features we can develop. Um but then where do you draw the line between still being adaptable and listening to the signals that it might be the time to either expand your strategy or pivot or change it completely? Like how do how do you navigate that?

When To Pivot Or Hold The Line

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Yeah, I think it's a really good question. I don't I don't have a universal answer to that, quite frankly. I think it's what I try to convey in the book, and this is um based on on my my dear colleague Ravi Meta, who who gave me a lot of feedback on the book, where he said, particularly these days, in a like where, for example, at least in the software industry, like the market pace, the change of pace at the box is so dramatic. The POV I landed on for now is okay, I think it's still important to have this time horizon of a strategy that looks at least a few more months into the future. Because again, you don't want to, if you look at a quarter, like that's a quarter. It's like you need something a little bit more long-term. And yet you have to be receptible to like Rami calls this, like I think, market interrupt moments or something like that. Like, and the most prominent example would be the launch of ChatGPT, right? There would be like probably like an interrupt moment. And then what is a market interrupt moment? Of course, again, it's very contextual, I think, it how it affects you. And I think the way I like to think about it then is like you your strategy consists of these different, almost like gears that are intertwined. When you when you when you dial one gear, the other gears turn as well, and then you have to think about that. And then I think the question is when the market interrupt moment happens, which part of your strategy is that predominantly affected, right? Chances are your vision might not be affected. Your vision is still very, very long term. Chances are the segment you're going after is also not necessarily affected. Chances are you have a new competitor. Chances are you're still solving the same problem. But your value proposition might be in question because maybe there's a new expectation. Your differentiation might be very much in question. Maybe your distribution as well, when a platform like OpenAI launches integrations or an app store, suddenly your value has to be distributed differently. So I think the the art, but if it's difficult to science it because it's more of an art, I think is to say, okay, this has come out. Which part of the strategy is like does change now if I turn this dial, and how do the other dials have to turn consequently? So that's the way I see it. So it's this, I think there's no standardizable or templatable answer to that. But it comes back to this point of translating a strategy into some kind of metrics and then having your routine or discipline to check in on the goals as well, to say, oh, like this metric is suddenly off track. Is that because we're executing poorly or is that because a shift in the market? And I think you can see this in many businesses right now when you say something like your organic SEO traffic might be changing due to AI search, for example. And then you have to think about okay, it's not the core content that is in threat, it's also not the segment. It's the same information I'm trying to provide, but how do I distribute it differently now to still reach people because their behavior has changed? So I think it's about mapping these changes to the aspects of a strategy and thinking which need adjustment.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Yes, and and what I'm hearing again, what can be useful here is not only having those metrics that are meaningful, but also having a practice to reflect on them so you could adjust when the market yeah disrupts itself or pivot. One other you know, interesting topic that you studied the book with was Alibi Progress, which is an interesting topic for me because it applies, I think, to every domain of life. I think that you know, something like just because you can measure it doesn't mean you should, or it's meaningful. So, yes, how did how did that come to be uh from your work, from your life?

Alibi Progress And Real Results

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Uh yeah, it's I think it's it's it's become more present. I think in the book I shared this anecdote of a boss of mine, a former boss of mine giving me feedback on that there during a part of my career, I might have been a bit more focused, or a bit too focused on the correct application of frameworks and methodology. That this I got a bit lost in the methodology and lost in itself, the actual results that are worth producing. And frankly, like over the years, then I I mean I've seen that or sometimes in myself, but I've also seen that in the clients I get to work with is that there's a they they check the box of a methodology and they do it in the book, but it doesn't produce a change in behavior for the teams or the customers, and therefore also not the bottom line. And then I think over the years, I used different, slightly different terminology for that. I think at one point I called it theater or something like that, but then I just landed on alibi progress. And funnily enough, I think the the title of the book, Real Progress, I think it is actually the title I had in mind when I started writing it. So I thought about real progress, and then it was more about finding the the appropriate opposite of that, and then I just landed on on alibi progress as the the term to use here.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Yes, it's um reminds me uh reminds me of my practice with trying to write good advertising. You know, there are so many metrics that you can measure, and yes, it can reach that many people, but does it actually uh uh create the kind of progress that you want at the end of the day? Meaning, let's say you want to have more customers, right? Just because you reach more people doesn't mean that that's uh in the only metric that matters or is needed. So in yeah, I found and do you have any maybe well in the book you have a lot of questions actually, but um maybe one or two questions uh for um either product managers or product teams or any any leader to diagnose that LB progress, right? Um how how can you perhaps um because some things are simple like in life or advertising, but when you build product, when you have big organizations, it might doesn't it's not always as obvious. So maybe what are some signals, what are some questions to ask on a regular basis to make sure that the company, the team is actually making progress versus just setting up the metrics for the show or the theater, as you said in the book.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

One of my favorite ways is probably when I work with a team or a company and they talk about a specific practice or way of working or framework, whatever it is. Then one of the things that I'm interested in is why are you doing this? And uh this one's so simple, but it's it's often like why tell me basically which problem are you trying to solve with this? And you could apply this to anything with this meeting, with this methodology, with this way of talking. What is it? And I think that is for me the first good test. Like to say, can you tell me the reason why you're doing this? If you can't tell me the reason why, there's a fair chance that you're doing it just so, right? Just so that you tick the box. So I think that would be the first, the first thing for me. If you're at least can name the reason, like if you say, Oh, we're doing this, so the teams are more aligned, or the teams, I don't know, are more focused, whatever. Then the follow-up question would be, okay, so how long have you been doing this? And how much has how could you, I mean, it doesn't always have to be a quantifiable number. It could be an anecdote in this case, but how has the team's alignment changed over the past six months or 12 months, right? So, and again, we could bring this back to this beach body example we had earlier on, right? So you might say, Oh, I go to the I go to the gym three times a week for 12 weeks now. It's like great, but has anything changed? Like, do you lift heavier weights or have your has your body composition improved or whatever? And if it hasn't, then yes, you did the reps, but you probably didn't push hard enough, you didn't do the right exercises or whatever. Like that then you can diagnose what the actual reason is.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Yes, it's you know the question why there it's such a powerful question. You know, it's been used with like Toyota industries to I I think to improve the production process, and then it's used by, I don't know, Simon Sinick to figure out your life purpose, right? Such a powerful question to get to the core of like why you're doing the things that you're doing and is it really working for you? Um amazing question, and uh such a simple way to figure out if there is meaning or the results outcomes that uh you want. In terms of maybe mistakes, like in in your experience, where do you find uh product teams, uh leaders get this progress wheel wrong, or not so much progress, but uh in interaction between strategy and metrics and discovery. What are the some common pitfalls that a lot of teams experience or leaders?

Common Pitfalls And Workshop Traps

SPEAKER_01 35:50

That's a good question. I think I would say I think that's I mean, that's kind of the main point of the progress wheel is like that to treat these three things and you could expand it to other practices, but to treat these three things as as isolated practices. I think that's the first thing to say, oh we we we just do the strategy, or we just set goals, or we just talk to customers when a lack of clarity in any of these will result in a lack of clarity in in the respective domain, right? Like the the less clear your strategy is, the more a team will struggle to articulate useful OKRs. For example, or the less clarity about your target audience from your strategy exists, the harder it will be for the team to choose whose problems to prioritize, right? So I think that that exists. And a symptom of that is of trying to workshop these things, like to only solve things in a workshop, like to only say, oh, we're gonna do a strategy workshop or an OKR workshop or a discovery workshop. And I think that's a that's a bit of a red flag because I think you can workshop parts of it, right? You can workshop certain things of that, but the actual work to understand customers, to understand which metric to use, like that happens outside of workshops. So I think an over-reliance on workshops and the treating these things too independently, I think these would be the two main things I would I would pay attention to. Um and maybe let me add a third one. It's for example, at least in the context of I think it's applicable to all three, is that if they feel they are stuck in their strategy or their OKRs, that they try to do strategy harder, for example, to say, oh, we just need another strategy template, or we need more strategy offsites, or we we just need a new AI generator for OKRs or whatever. And it's like when the root cause that might give you incremental gains, but the root cause is one of those adjacent practices that might just be even more powerful.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Yes, and also it reminds me of this. What I encountered is when this strategy, for example, is too vague and it is treated differently by the leadership. It's sort of like that's what the leadership does. And then it is not translated to every level and department or not translatable because it is so vague. And everyone ends up uh measuring their own metrics that do not necessarily support the strategy, and they then shape the discovery according to their metrics, not really related again to the strategy, and that's how you end up pulling into a different direction and not really making progress on strategy. And the same thing, you know, like back to Beach Body example, running harder isn't always the answer to getting to where you you need to go.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

That's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Yeah, it's like again, just reading your book and talking to you. The I can see like so much steps and so many things come together. It's like why certain things just don't work in companies, especially if the company starts growing and becomes large and you can't really see everything as a leader, but you can see the symptoms like things are misaligned or not not working. I think a little bit maybe backward, maybe I don't know. The question what was the I think main motivation for you to put that even in the book at this point, right? Why not just keep writing the blog? Why did you want to uh create this book for maybe for who and what problem to solve to do?

Why Write A Book Now

SPEAKER_01 39:20

That's a good question. I think the probably a couple of different reasons. Uh like one is that it feels to me like when I when I talk to friends of mine who also in the coaching consulting business, that at some point like writing a book is like it's like it's like a better business card. It becomes can become your business card, right? There's a weird thing that happens with people when suddenly you can start yourself calling an author an author compared to not. Right? It's it's a while it's one of those things that are that are not rational but real, anyways, right? So I think that was always in the back of my mind as like a strategic tool of my business, of like to to to to have a book, so to speak. Thing that is what I realized is that very often or over time, as I started to see these connecting these dots across these domains and these intersected complexities, so to speak, is that when I would try to convey this complexity in an article, it would blow up inadequate sense. Like it just becomes too big, it becomes too much, it's no longer an article. That's the second thing. And the third thing was that I had this idea of a book. And so I was like, yeah, it's probably something I should do. And I remember in 2022, I thought this would be the year where I would write the book, but I never actually went for it. I never actually did it, right? And I'm a strong believer, as I mentioned before, that to going after where the resonance or the gravity of something is. So clearly 2022 it wasn't there. But in 2023, like this term that came to my head is like, do I have the book in me? Like I think in order to push through the journey of a book, like it has to be within you so that you that it creates enough power in a way to actually bring it into the world. Because it is it's a journey, you have to go through it. Nobody sits down and writes it in two weeks, or almost no one. So that was that was the thing that in 2023 I felt like, yeah, I I have the book within me. Like I have the things and the topics. And the the funny, like mini breakthrough moment was I was a bit strategic about that. I started working with a new editor on the blog to test how the collaboration worked. And then in I think in May or June of that year, I was on a taxi and a cab ride with three very accomplished authors in my industry. Peter Willer, Jeff Gotthoff, and and I think Christina Watkin as well. And the three of them just started talking about their book business. Like, ah, what's good about authorship and this or that. I was sitting in there and I I knew them, I liked them. I was like, shit, now I have to write a book. Like I was like, okay, missing out hearing them was like, yeah, okay, I see it. And then I think two weeks later I talked to my editor, like, I want to, I want to read for real, and I want to embark on the journey of writing the book. So I think that was the the spark of realizing when do I really have it within me to actually have enough power to push through this process of creating it. And this, like, okay, I think it's part of my career, the stage of my consulting career where it really fits in.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Like slippermind the question, but I I I just thought about when you started talking about how when you write blogs and they blow up and become longer, almost uh not manageable for today's attention span. When uh people usually buy a book, they expect it to be a book, right? To dedicate some more attention and time to that. And uh I think that's where you're right, that the format also is important, that not everything that you can put in the block, you should put in the blog or a tweet. But yeah, the the amazing book, you know, it's one of those books. I also believe that when you decide to write a book and dedicate the time that you probably want to feel like it's something that is valuable of people's attention, that's worth people's attention, meaning that you know it's something good that you're gonna be proud of. And so you can't really force uh that process. I'm curious, how long did it take you to write it, like in terms of hours, maybe?

Writing Process, Feedback, And Flow

SPEAKER_01 43:22

In terms of hours, I think I stopped tracking at one point because it was just, I don't know. I think it's I don't know. So it was two years from actually starting working on it and the actual publishing, a little over two years maybe. And it I did it in phases, I would say. I think there were phases where I'd spent much more time where I'm probably spent a week. I probably spent, let's say, 12, 14 hours a week writing on it, like net really like net, net writing time. There were weeks where I probably only work like four to six hours on it. I think the the interesting thing is like if you hear if you hear that, I can imagine it might not sound like a lot, right? It's because you feel like, oh, it's like 40 hours, 60-hour work weeks. But like, but the the the the period of actually like that's like net time thinking and writing the book. And that's so different than sitting in a meeting or whatever, or doing normal corporate work. So it's very for me, it's at least very intense. And I realized I can't properly, I couldn't properly write more than let's say five hours a day. I I just like the dimension insurance were just too much. It just didn't make sense for me to continue after that. And then yeah, it was easy to difficult to find my flow. Also, like what's uh what's the type of way of working that works for me for the book? But I had to try a lot in that and trying to find what's the setup where I can really write well for me.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Yeah, I also like you know to unpack the process because I like listeners to understand that uh fact that we humans are like machines, not AI, and our brain has its capacity to deliver good work and good thinking. And as you said, you can't just order yourself to sit and write for eight hours.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Go ahead. It's also it's also what I noticed is that I I I would write something, and then it would have to sometimes just sit a bit. I would have to marinate it in a way. I'd have to put this down and I might come back to it a couple of weeks later. I might not work on the book at all. I might work on different parts of the book, but to me it was a natural process. I couldn't like write it down, finish. It was always like I would write it, I would let it sit, I would come back, I would write it again, then I would share it with people, and then I would so it was this the evolution for me because I also didn't want it to like an approach I took is I didn't like lagging leading again, is I didn't just want to write the full book and then get feedback on it, but I wanted to, I wrote individual chapters and shared each chapter with beta readers so I could get feedback immediately. So that's also what what kept me going throughout the two years, instead of having to have this dry period of not getting feedback at all, like having feedback in between.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

And you know, writing with people, I think it's by now a very common practice for a lot of creators to create to co-create with the audience, just because you also probably are writing for the audience, not just for your own entertainment. So you want the book to resonate. Curious that did you use AI at any in any form of shape, like maybe as an editor or idea generator?

SPEAKER_01 46:19

So I did more towards the end, I would say, in the last quarter of writing, probably. Because early on, I found that the tools that I used early on when I started writing in 2023, they never felt good enough, quite frankly.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Yeah.

Using AI To Get To The Hard Part Faster

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Uh like the context windows were too small, it was difficult to convey the whole message. So that didn't really work well. And so I would say I remember that this year, around like April, May, I started to use AI for a couple of like thinking pieces, right? I would I think I would never uh almost never use it for actual writing. It was more like, okay, look, I have I want to find a repeatable structure for the chapter. Or here's how I did this. Tell me where the structure breaks, or where where I have a gap in there. So that's how I where I so I really mostly use it as a sparings partner, and it was good because I still had my human editor, but working with AI in between was basically like she would sit, it felt like she would sit next to me for the little mini back and forth, and then I would have a larger chunk of work, and then I could work with my editor on actually fine-tuning it and embedding it into the broader picture. Because that's what I still found. What never really worked well with AI back then was to really make sure that the piece that was written, how well it fitted to the broader book. Like that's something where it always fell through, which is fine. But yeah, that that was my I think the strongest usage that I experienced.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Yeah, see, but I I feel like that is a really good usage of it because what I found is when some people use it for actual writing, it very often loses that like grounding, so to speak, because the eye doesn't have a lived experience. And so very often, like what it tries, it becomes like such some generic stuff that is not very relatable. And you can always, like, at least from the books that that I tried that I know were written by AI, like you you can say that's not a lot of human was in the book, so yeah, but your book is again like very relatable, and it's like AI just wouldn't be able to create anything like that because of the experience, originality, just the frameworks. Um speaking of AI, you know, AI is like uh the biggest word these days. In your work, did you find that any concepts, any tools you use or strategies change because of AI, or would you recommend something different because of the AI in the loop? Like, what's your thinking on that?

SPEAKER_01 48:47

That's a really great question again. I think I think for me, I feel like I have not like fully made up my mind on that. I think it's I mean it's ever evolving, so it's hard to do it anyway. So I'd rather stick to uh stick to a few people that seem to be much more immersed in it, and I just like to follow their lead. So, for example, uh the the guy I mentioned, Ravi Mehda, who contributed a lot to the book. Like he had this great quote on AI helps you get to the hard part faster. And I really like that to say like there's still very hard thinking required in life and building products. And I think it's great to think of which parts can AI can shortcut for you that you get faster towards so that you can have more time to spend with. And I think that's a that's a very fascinating, almost like meta question. Like, because within product management, you might think if the delivery of features gets faster, what does that then mean? Does it mean I should build more features, or shouldn't I spend the time that is now become available on harder questions? And I think that's almost like it's a big meta question for humanity. It's like if you had suddenly more time to spare due to AI automation, do you try to do more of the thing? Or do you like where do you else do you take your mind? So this is very, very meta. I realize that, but that's how I try to phrase it towards teams is if you have a shortcut to get to the hard parts faster. Do you have the skills to like do you are you aware of these hard parts you should be thinking about and structures to talk about it and leverage AI intentionally for that, for these shortcuts where it's applicable?

SPEAKER_00 50:19

Yeah, um reminds me of my recent experience where I'm trying to figure out value proposition for my services. And what AI helps me to do is to deliver different presentations or videos that communicate either a frame or a career service. But then uh I spend more time analyzing the feedback that I get from my potential client and then thinking through what is actually would I actually need to improve because this didn't get the response that I hoped for. And then I get back to the thinking instead of spending hours on building the thing up that doesn't even work.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

So yes, I can I can so relate to this, like I helps you to get to the hard parts faster as long as you're prepared to to then do the hard part more often. I guess it's like you know, now you have to work with your brain actually harder more often.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

Hopefully. Yes, uh so AI can make you smarter if you use it the right way, like you said, as you use it as a partner in the creation. Uh yes, thank you so much for sharing like uh this process and your thinking on because AI again is such a big topic right now. Um but maybe a little bit more on AI. Like, do you think in terms of I guess just the process of applying the framework? Do you think anything will fundamentally change around this framework because of the AI? Like, I don't know, this the trifector of strategist goals and discovery. Do we need more AI? I don't know, in discovery, or I don't know. What's your thoughts on that? Do you think that's a long-standing framework?

What Will AI Change

SPEAKER_01 52:05

I think at least I would say that the fundamental question will remain, right? Like the question of like the fundamental question of strategy, like who do you focus on? How do you differentiate? What do you deliver through the OKRs? How do you measure success? And I think again, the question, like the necessity to answer the question will remain. That's what my today, my current stance is. I think the interesting question is how can you get to answers faster, right? That's what we just talked about. So you can do probably faster research on competitors and alternatives. You can probably use AI as a very creative sparing partner for finding potential metrics to measure the strategy. You can definitely use AI to prepare for user interviews and synthesize feedback even faster. So I think these, like the actual actions, the processes to execute or find answers to these questions, they will get speed up.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

For sure. I think the necessity to answer the questions will remain for the foreseeable future, as far as I can tell it right now. And of course, then I mean the other meta question is what does AI mean, for example, as part of your strategy? Like, is it like where is it in your strategy? I think there was this great quote by David Blunt, who wrote testing business ideas, and he I think he once wrote that AI itself is not a value proposition, right? AI is um is an accelerator or an amplifier of an existing value proposition or a creator of a new value proposition, but it's it's like it's like this this backbone force that reinforces a change in the front end. But it's not it itself, is not it's not the value proposition. Yes, it's and I think that resonated with me as a as a way of thinking.

SPEAKER_00 53:40

It also reminds me of this fact that you know, I think Elon Musk uh talked about those, like his five-step process for the developing businesses faster. And one of the things he said that before automating or speeding things up, you need to eliminate things. But basically, what he was saying, you need to create strategy and make sure that your process is good before you try to automate it, speed up, or AI it. Otherwise, you're just gonna get a lot more of the wrong stuff.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

Yeah, agree.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

Um I think I have just a few questions left before I'll let you go. I know uh you probably have a lot of other things to do. One question is a question that I didn't ask, but perhaps you wanted to answer something that you wanted to expand more on.

Turning Lags Into Leads

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Oh, that's good. Yeah, I think one thing that came to my mind after we touched on the topic is how do I how can I go from lagging to leading indicators? Yeah. Uh and like the the thing for product teams, what I tell for product teams is the way I think about it is okay, so you have your lagging indicator, which represents a certain success moment for customers. Like they bought something or something, something success moment has changed. And so the question, the way I articulate it is, okay, now tell me what do the people who were successful have in common. So, like a very simplified example might be so you maybe you're a furniture e-commerce company, and you see that people who have the highest conversion rate or the biggest basket, they have added, I don't know, 20 or more items to the bookmark list for the shopping wish list, for example. So then you could say, okay, so there seems to be a correlation between the number of items someone has bookmarked on our platform and the success moment of purchasing. So maybe the bookmarking a product for later could become a leading indicator, right? So we optimize for the leading indicator, and then we observe in this cohort whether there's an actual correlation between the higher purchase, a chance to purchase, for example. And I think this fundamental way of thinking could be good again, using going back to the beach body example. You could look at, okay, who are the people who I like, who want to look like, for example, and then could reverse engineer what do they have in common? Like, oh, okay, some of them do weight training instead of cardio, or some of them have, I don't know, a pescetarian diet over keto diet, whatever. And then even from there, you could say, okay, these are potential leading indicators to choose from. And then it's the question we had earlier. Then you just choose which works for your capabilities, for your preferences, and use that as the leading indicator. So basically finding the pattern among the successful ones, and then figuring out which pattern you you can actually replicate for your in your context.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

Yeah, so it's also I think a good way to educate or uh your strategy or uh to design your strategy, right? Uh seeing those better practices and then designing your work process to measure it on those like uh leading indicators. Yeah, it's uh such a good one because yes, uh I think also uh what our modern time is how it is different from before is we have so much choice of all the things that we can do. AI is obviously very conducive to that, meaning like you have so much, so many options, but that doesn't mean that all of those those options are worth doing, and one just waste your resources. So that's a good way to filter through those faster. And like, what's my success? What's the common pattern, and how can I make that or to put that into test in my leading uh indicators? Yeah, it's um again again, such a such a such a concept. Again, what you're talking about, I feel like it's it is applicable to so many areas of business and life if you extrapolate the concepts. Another question that I had, an interesting one, at least from my perspective. One practice that you perhaps still see in teams and and leadership that you think should retire by now.

Practices To Retire And Evolve

SPEAKER_01 57:46

That is a really good one, and it makes me think I might say I might say the let's say the conversation about, for example, like the metrics or results of a team predominantly being used for reporting. So more that's more like a one-way street. So it's more like me as the team, I have an update on certain things and I just communicate it to you instead of it being the conversation starter. Uh like that's why I see that most often the context of OPRs, that it's then, oh, we don't have time to do a check-in, so just submit the OPRs. So it's just looking at the numbers. And I think it's it just loses, it's not wrong per se, but it just loses a big portion of the value this can create from actually talking about these things.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

And if I may, I would also add, based on your work, that this practice of using strategy as sort of isolated tool somewhere out there again at the leadership level, versus having it as a day-to-day decision-making assistant, like guidance, right? Yeah, the this is a strategy, and this is how I use it to say yes or no to certain things. That should be a lot like used a lot wider. And the last question, the future for the book, for your work. Uh, what do you think? You like what's your what are your hopes? Where do you see yourself developing uh in the next um I don't know, couple of years to a decade?

What’s Next And Where To Find Tim

SPEAKER_01 59:23

Interesting. I'm still in the process of figuring that out, I would say. I think after completing the book, it marked, it felt like completing a big era of my work. And so it feels a bit like in the process of shaping this next era and definitely not by no means tired of talking about the things from the book. So this will keep going. I think for me, the the biggest wish for the book is predominantly that the quote unquote the right people will pick it up. What I mean by that is that what I often got as a feedback is like there's a that this is not a book for everyone, and that's fine. It's not what I had in mind. So it's it serves a certain people of a certain experience, a certain situation better than others, and which is So my biggest hope is that it that it gets picked up by the right people and that these people get value from that. And I oftentimes have that when people reach out to me and talk to me, share a message on LinkedIn, how well they like the book, how much they like the book. Then I look at their CV on LinkedIn and I see that they're actually quite mature, quite experienced in the craft. And that makes me very happy because that's the type of people I wanted to write for. The like the next thing I want to explore content-wise a bit more is this idea of what I mentioned before, like teams in companies who are building for internal teams, internal teams or platform teams, as you like to call it. I really like that because it's certainly a pattern or a red thread throughout most of my clients that these teams exist, that these teams do incredibly important work for the frontline success. But that they have issues adopting some of these product practices we like to talk about so much. So that's what I what I would like to focus on a bit more and shining a bit more light on practices for these kind of teams and making them more visible, giving them more guidance, making them feel seen and heard. I think that's like a content topic I want to explore a bit more in the future. Yeah, other than that, I realized this year like how much I enjoy live interactions with audiences, whether it's meetups, talks, or just webinars. And so I look forward to putting more of that out there and just having more real-time conversations and interactions with people.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:25

I'm looking forward to seeing more of that and perhaps attending some talks and workshops. But speaking also of the area that you want to develop more, I feel like that is so important also because it shapes culture, like the products and services that are done internally, and you said like that help people to be seen and heard. And ultimately, this internal environment defines then the external output and the you know efficiency of the whole enterprise, however small or big it is. So yes, I I can totally see why you why you see it as a very important area. Well, team, thank you so much for being a guest on this show and changewired podcast. The last thing I want to ask is where would you like people to go to connect with your work, what to check out? And I'm gonna link everything in the show notes. But what are the best places?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

I think the best place is probably LinkedIn to just from and search for my name, uh, get in touch there, have an open profile. Always looking forward to hear from people. And if they if people would just like to be in touch and get regular updates on what I'm up to, my newsletter is probably the best place to go. It's herbic.co slash newsletter. They can't miss it from there. And uh yeah, looking forward to then always hearing from people on what lands with them and what's present for them.

Closing And Book Reminder

SPEAKER_00 1:02:43

Yes, thank you for sharing this. And obviously, guys, don't forget to check out team's new book, Real Progress, How to Connect the Data of Product Strategy, OKRs and Discovery, which, as I mentioned, and can be applied to so many uh areas of life, business, I don't know, culture development and beyond. So thank you so much, team, and I'm looking forward to the what you accomplish, what you develop next. And thank you so much again for being on the show.