Navigating Complex Mental Health & Addiction Recovery: A journey from Self-Harm to Self-Parenting

Robin Lefever, psychiatrist and long-standing voice in addiction and mental health care, joins Abdullah Boulad for an honest and wide-ranging conversation on addiction, relapse, depression, trauma, and the long-term reality of treatment.

Robin speaks openly about his early experiences with substance use, the temporary relief addiction can bring, and how emotional vulnerability, social anxiety, and mental health struggles often sit underneath addictive behaviours. He reflects on relapse, self-harm, depressive episodes, and the complex journey from first asking for help to long-term stability.

The discussion looks at family systems, early intervention, harm reduction, therapeutic communities, power dynamics in clinics, and the importance of team culture in creating a safe therapeutic environment.

This episode also touches on suicidal ideation, mental health crises, neurodivergence, and the need for compassionate, human-centered care that goes beyond rigid models. 

About Robin:
Robin Lefever is a psychiatrist with decades of experience in addiction and mental health treatment. His work focuses on evidence-based care, therapeutic communities, and creating treatment environments that are supportive, ethical, and grounded in clinical reality.

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Transcript

Robin Lefever 00:00:00  What I remember was discovering drink, being very depressed. I mean, I felt suicidal if I've had chronic depressive episodes where I have tried to take my life, so I understand. It felt like a fight in my head between a part of me that was trying to live and a part of me that wanted to die. On average, from the first point, when somebody has a problem until they first ask for help is on average five years, people say, oh, just talk, that kind of thing. I could talk, but you wouldn't understand. Yes, that's the problem with mental health. It's this smorgasbord of different things. When I look back at kind of my time, they waited till the bitter end, until it was so obvious before kind of anyone either did anything or they asked for help.

Abdullah Boulard 00:00:40  What can we do different?

Robin Lefever 00:00:41  Be honest, I think.

Abdullah Boulard 00:00:44  Welcome to the Living a Life and Balanced podcast. My name is Abdullah Bullard. I'm the founder and CEO of the Balanced Rehab Clinic.

Abdullah Boulard 00:00:52  My guest today is Robin Lefebvre, addiction recovery expert, treatment pioneer, and lead clinician of the family run Promise Clinic and newly acquired Cardinal Clinic. In this episode, Robin shares his extraordinary journey healing from self-harm, addiction and depression through recovery. He opens up about his suicide attempt, how mental health problems will slowly, over time, and why it's critical to intervene before people reach their breaking point. Robin explains why shame free holistic care helps people reclaim what addiction has taken from them. He also shares his candid views on how the industry must evolve, from ending the one off treatment model to creating environments where people generally want help. I hope you will enjoy. Robin. What motivated you to do what you do today?

Robin Lefever 00:01:55  I mean, I guess you'd say I'm a poacher turned gamekeeper, because I had a very kind of mixed up, kind of childhood and, ended up with addiction problems. And luckily enough, if you're going to have addiction problems, it's really helpful to have a family who own a clinic.

Robin Lefever 00:02:10  And my parents had, founded a clinic. And, so I kind of I went there quite early on. That was the kind of inspiration to do it, but but not right away. I mean, so so I had this kind of mixed up childhood and kind of some traumatic events and kind of sort of self-harming when I was 11 and drinking when I was 12 and then went through, 11 schools in eight years, it was all very dysfunctional. funnily enough, one of the schools I went to was just down the road here. It was about 20 miles down the road, but do not name it. And I went to, I was thrown out at 16 for taking taxis to the pub and charging them to the school account because I was already drinking so much and kind of, like, so out of off, off kilter. And then kind of I went to a tutorial college in London, which is where all the other people who had drink and drug problems, who dropped out, kind of went to.

Robin Lefever 00:03:00  And then my parents kind of got into this field. my dad had been inspired. He was a doctor. He'd been inspired by seeing a client get well and wanted to understand how. And I don't think he was really kind of aware of our own family sort of history of addiction and stuff going on in the family. But he he was really inspired by that. And, and then unfortunately, he became more aware, unfortunately for me, in my addiction and, you know, and he made a very reasonable proposition, which was that he didn't want me to carry on using drugs in the house. And I reframed that as, you're throwing me out and I'm an orphan. It was all very dramatic. And, and so I left home at 17, and, you know, some friends of mine started working in the city. It was a lot like a kind of wolf of Wall Street dodgy kind of stuff. And I kind of went into that being somebody with an addiction problem, it was the kind of perfect.

Robin Lefever 00:03:58  Perfect environment to carry on. But I must admit, at the same time, I was kind of unhappy enough to. Ask for help. And, my parents had offered to let me get help. And so I did dip my toe in treatment, and I went to. Their clinic for a couple of weeks. And then I kind of walked out of there, and then they sent me to America to. Hazelden. And then they threw me out after a couple of weeks. I mean, I got a not got a great kind of like you.

Abdullah Boulard 00:04:25  Were one of them.

Robin Lefever 00:04:26  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Funnily enough, I came back and I stayed kind of clean and sober. If we still use that phrase, For, for a year after that. So we obviously had, you know, a deal of intent, although I don't think I wanted to. Do kind of the rest of the work that would be necessary to sustain a recovery. And, you know, basically, I just had that idea that.

Robin Lefever 00:04:47  I'll try and take drink and drugs out of the equation. Everything else would be fine. I'll carry on living the same life and that didn't work. So eventually I kind of I obviously started using, but but quite a little while later. wanted to come back into kind of recovery. So it wasn't finally until I was 23. Although it sounds like an epoch, doesn't it, now? Now I'm nearly 60, and I'm kind of thinking about what's up until the ripe old age of 23. But like at 23 was the kind of final time I went back and I actually completed treatment and I went to a halfway house, albeit briefly. It wasn't perfect treatment episode, whatever that would look like. And and then sorry, I was a bit of a monologue, but I mean, in early recovery, I kind of, I mean, it's difficult, isn't it? I imagine if people when they kind of come into recovery, they're probably inspired. I was definitely inspired by this kind of mercurial kind of world of therapy and psychology.

Robin Lefever 00:05:47  I mean, I had lots of other interests of computing and things like that. but I also missed out on university because of my addiction. And so one of the things I really wanted to do was to go to experience university. I didn't want to, I didn't I was teasing my parents when I went that I wasn't going to get my actual degree because I don't value the bit of paper. But I really wanted that experience of being in an environment with lots of people who are super interested in their subjects. So I went to university and studied psychology, and then kind of shortly after that, it's kind of like really difficult. I've got my parents, they've got a clinic. I'm, you know, studying psychology, super interested in therapy. You know, they asked if I would join and of course I did. And it was fascinating and amazing to be kind of involved in the kind of whole therapy world. So sorry. It's a heck of a long origin story, but yeah, that's how I kind of came to be interested in it and come to work in it.

Abdullah Boulard 00:06:46  Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. And, one could think like, yeah, if the parents run, a rehab or an addiction clinic, you have all the resources and, and the tools at home to, to not get into it. But this was clearly not the case in.

Robin Lefever 00:07:06  Well, no, I mean, I was going to I was thinking you were going to say it the other way around, which is probably true, which is that we've got, you know, enough people in the family to keep a small clinic going. so, so no, I mean, and I think, yeah, I think that was the interesting thing about my father kind of sort of getting his own awareness because initially it was, you know, he wanted to help other people. Then he recognized his own processes and was very open. And that was quite a, a brave thing to do for a doctor, you know, back then to kind of talk about being in recovery and in his own journey.

Robin Lefever 00:07:42  It was groundbreaking. It was really not the thing that was done in the medical world. and and then kind of I guess he kind of broadened his, his kind of realization that there was something going on with me and kind of other members of the family and kind of. And then I think, I think your other point is also right, which is that as I've kind of been in recovery and been working in this, as my other members of my family have had their own difficulties, I think the fact that I'm kind of modeling in a way, and it's just part of our family culture to kind of have an understanding of mental health and to to kind of respect people needing to do a bit of work here and there has meant, hasn't meant that they've dodged all the bullets of having, you know, they got my genes. So, you know, they, they couldn't escape, you know, or all other problems, let alone my poor parenting. so kind of that combination, you know, means that they kind of had their difficulties, but it also means that they've asked for help and they've been able to get help at a much earlier stage.

Robin Lefever 00:08:47  I think that the shame, when I look back at kind of my time, was that people kind of they waited till the bitter end until it was so obvious before kind of anyone either did anything or they asked for help. nowadays, one of the things I kind of rejoice in is when people kind of get help at a much earlier stage. And I think we we've done a lot as a, as a, as a field to make treatment much more kind of attractive. I kind of would like to think that kind of treatment would be something that someone would reward themselves with. Whereas it used to be threatened as a kind of punishment that you're going to go indeed 28 days if you don't stop drinking or whatever, you know, that's how how could that ever work? It's got to be that people feel like this is a kind of nourishing, you know, experience coming to treatment, and it's really going to give us the help because Just telling me you're going to take away what works, the kind of drink and drugs or whatever the issue is.

Robin Lefever 00:09:51  and then just leave me with kind of raw feelings and, you know, that's that's just torture. It's like a double torture. So, yeah, a long answer again. Sorry. After all.

Abdullah Boulard 00:10:01  No. It's fine. I'm glad to to listen to you. But we will get back to the to that topic. But if we get back to to your childhood, you mentioned something. You started with self-harm. How did you get into just for someone to understand what emotional state where you where you been and have you been and and why?

Robin Lefever 00:10:24  I mean, it's really difficult to understand. I mean, and it's really difficult for me to put myself back into that, mind space really. I mean, I, I, I think I was, you know, I, I think I'm kind of, you know, kind of I stay and kind of, quite obviously a bit sort of Aspie with, with, with how I am generally. and so I think they were kind of like this whole smorgasbord of things that were going on.

Robin Lefever 00:10:57  I think, you know, I think there were difficulties in our kind of family circumstances in as much as, you know, kind of our life was up and down a lot. you know, my parents were were kind of away a lot. My dad was quite kind of angry back in the day. He won't mind me saying, I'm sure. And and so I've got this kind of absent, distant, angry, you know, relationship, but at the same time, you know, some tremendous privileges. I mean, he, he was, properly mad and flamboyant, and there were some wonderful things about that. He would just go off and kind of like, buy a farm. And so we'd go down and live on a farm, or he'd buy a house in Wales and we'd go and get travelled down to Wales. Five of us in a, five of us in an Afghan hound. It was the 70s, you know. And, so there was some magical experiences in there, but also just some real weirdness and difficulties and a lot of moving around and poor biology.

Robin Lefever 00:11:59  I mean, I kind of think, you know, my, my grandfather on my mother's side suicided. You know, so we've got kind of a strong depressive line kind of going. Lots of addiction, compulsive behaviors, lots of kind of traumas, you know. And then for my parents, they both had really, really traumatic upbringings. I mean, my dad had a I mean, he's written about a lot. So I'm not kind of, breaching his confidentiality or anything here, but, I mean, he had a really, really brutal childhood, and I was genuinely loving, as I believe he is. I mean, he absolutely is. It's I think it must have had, you know, a terrible kind of impact on kind of how he could relate to us and what it was like. So. But, you know, that's the problem with mental health. It's it's not this one thing. It's not the trauma. It's not the kind of biology, it's not kind of society. It's it's this smorgasbord of different things that kind of come together, that kind of underlie the problems, if you see what I mean.

Robin Lefever 00:12:59  So, but, but I mean, yeah. So I what I kind of remember was, first of all, discovering drink, being very depressed, really. It was kind of as much, I mean, I felt suicidal, which is weird to imagine because I've seen my own children grow up and to imagine somebody of my age then, yeah, feeling like they wanted to die and then kind of cutting myself. it wasn't just I mean, then obviously there's the kind of process of cutting and that. But there was also what I find weirder is that kind of suicidal intent. And much later in life, I've had, you know, chronic depressive episodes where I have tried to take my life. So I kind of understand, but I mean to have my first one kind of that young and be self-harming and then drinking and then, you know, as soon as anything came along that would work as a Anderson anaesthetic. And I think also kind of that bit of going to all these different schools not fitting in.

Robin Lefever 00:13:58  Being socially awkward as I am. yeah, I'm kind of bullying. And I also had a massive, operation on my leg when I was a kid. I was only about nine, and I spent a year in hospital. And it was that whole thing was kind of really traumatic as well. So it's just like you can just see this kind of cluster of things and then straight away kind of at 12 or whatever it is to go to boarding school and, you know, this whole kind of, boarding school syndrome that they talk about, kind of like, and I, you know, for me, it was kind of there was, again, another mixed experience because I think there were incredible privileges. You know, it was close to here. Beautiful, similar sort of sandstone buildings and amazing opportunities to do things. But also it was really brutal. I mean, it was a brutal place and, and just and, and we were all kind of like, I, I was homesick, I didn't like being away.

Robin Lefever 00:14:57  I found it weird being in this institution. And yeah, so I had a really bad experience with that. And I have to be careful of of all of that as a therapist because, you know, I've got lots of friends who went to boarding school and they had the best time of their lives, and I, I believed them. You know, I mean, it was just that my experience was incredibly difficult. And I found it really, really sort of traumatizing. And then kind of weirdly coming out of that at 16 when I got thrown out and I went to the tutorial college in London, I had a kind of good year. And that's kind of typical story for people who get into addiction problems because kind of getting into the drugs more a kind of, you know, 17 in London I was doing reasonably well in the city and, you know, just that whole kind of thing. But it was madness. I mean, it was genuinely Wolf of Wall Street. I mean, they literally got that film right.

Robin Lefever 00:15:50  It was that mad. but kind of there was a weird period there where I was sort of in balance where the drugs were working, where I felt like they were coping with the mess underneath, and I was functioning in a weird way. and then, of course, it all falls apart again. So that's the kind of, you know, but people kind of probably don't understand with addiction that there's a period where it kind of really works.

Abdullah Boulard 00:16:20  And for how long did it work for you?

Robin Lefever 00:16:24  I mean, on and off. I want to say I want to say a couple of good years, which doesn't sound like a lot, does it? But it was I mean, it was a lot and it was it did make a difference to. To that kind of real kind of pain and awkwardness that I felt to have two good years where, yeah, I mean, I regret those two years, ironically because because I, I'm trying to remember the psychiatrist. He said that being an alcoholic is like having a frontal lobotomy and that, in that kind of there's a kind of a disconnect from our emotions and our kind of, morality.

Robin Lefever 00:17:03  I suppose that means that, I mean, it leaves me with behavior that I feel very ashamed about, you know? I mean, that whole thing of working in the city and The Wolf of Wall Street, it's it's funny, but it's also hideous. Yeah. do you know what I mean? So there's kind of I've got very mixed emotions about all of that. And, and when I say it was working for me, it was working for me on that level, but it actually took me further away, I think, from who I really am or who I would like to think I had. You know what I mean? Yes.

Abdullah Boulard 00:17:34  So you were also very young when you started with with, with the addiction. what what sense of relief or did you do you had at that time?

Robin Lefever 00:17:45  I mean, like, even at that time, at the younger ages, I mean, I think it was like it was magical. I mean, I think I hear a lot of other people kind of saying that thing that.

Robin Lefever 00:17:55  Oh, actually, I was talking with somebody just before this show, and they were saying that kind of, you know, their first experience. They were kind of like, exposed to weed. And they thought, God, this is this is awful. And it's strange because for me, my first experience of kind of every drug, whether it was alcohol, weed or, you know, coke, heroin or whatever, was always, this is magical. I mean, and I think, I think that's really interesting because I think people who don't have that kind of addiction, profile, you know, my wife, for example, you know, she'll have a kind of couple of glasses of wine or something, and then she says, I've reached my limit. You know, I don't, you know, don't want to. I don't want to feel out of control. I hate that feeling of feeling. And I'm thinking, that's the whole point. You know, so I think there's a kind of an experientially different, experience that we have when we first kind of, or whenever we kind of experience those substances or behaviors.

Robin Lefever 00:18:52  So, I mean, at that very young age, it was transformative. You know, it kind of took away those difficult feelings, and it made me less incredibly sort of socially awkward and stuff. So it was magic if I could, if I could have that without the kind of loss of loss of myself that went with it, I'd be in heaven. But, and if I have to make a choice, I kind of I'll do it out and work on that kind of awkwardness in kind of other ways. Basically. Yes.

Abdullah Boulard 00:19:27  Well, what do you mean with socially awkward? So how have you been there socially with other people?

Robin Lefever 00:19:33  I really like meeting people kind of one on one or in small groups so I can function as a therapist. But if I get out into a kind of wider scenario, it's really I feel really awkward. I, I mean, I think it's one of those awful things where because I'm kind of feeling anxious and awkward, my anxiety kind of makes me say stupid things.

Robin Lefever 00:19:57  And then I remember all the stupid things I've said because I'm anxious and it's just like this vicious cycle with it. So, but I'm kind of like, you know, I say I'm kind of, you know, neurodivergent. Then I'm kind of. I'm kind of okay with that, if that makes sense. I've kind of adapted my life. my wife kind of tolerates it as well. She. She kind of knows the kind of limitations, in a sense of what I can do and what I'm comfortable with, and I'll go along as much as I can to show willing. It's interesting. I think, you know, kind of earlier on, we always used to think about how we were going to kind of overcome our kind of limitations, you know. and nowadays I think we think more actually, we're just wired differently. So let's adapt our life to how we are rather than, do you know what I mean? So I think, you know, around that I'm more forgiving of my quirkiness and odd oddness.

Abdullah Boulard 00:21:00  Has come to accept.

Robin Lefever 00:21:01  And I accept them. And I've kind of built a life that kind of works around that. And I'll I'll do my bit. I, you know, I feel at this conference, it's just sort of like, you know, the nightmare scenario for me. I'm like hordes of people and stuff.

Abdullah Boulard 00:21:14  You're doing good.

Robin Lefever 00:21:15  Thank you, thank you. so I will do. I will do my kind of bit, but it's not my. It's not my happy place.

Abdullah Boulard 00:21:22  You had you had, some depressive At what age was that?

Robin Lefever 00:21:28  I mean, so obviously. Well, not obviously, but I would say that kind of first one was very young, wasn't it? Kind of like that, that that earliest episode. And I hadn't realized that was what it was. and then I guess, you know, I've had them on and off. I had a particularly terrible one, kind of probably about, weirdly, 10 or 15 years into recovery. And, I mean, there was a trigger, which was around kind of relationships.

Robin Lefever 00:21:57  But I don't think, I don't think this stuff, well, is and isn't about triggers. I mean, I think there's kind of like there is that kind of vulnerability and frailty. I mean, I'm sort of when people have, you know, one mental health diagnosis by kind of 18, which I at least had, you know, there's a there's a really high percentage chance that they're going to have a secondary or tertiary kind of diagnosis or second primary diagnosis, really. Later on in life, by the time they're sort of 50. And I just lived out that stereotype. You know, I kind of had these manifestations, you know, kind of early on through kind of addiction and, and the social anxiety and all that kind of stuff. And then later on, the kind of massive depression came on. I mean, roll on my 60s. I'm 59 now, so I'm going to become psychotic in my 60s, probably. I mean, but I'm kind of I'm sort of weirdly okay with that, in the sense that I'm frustrated by the kind of simplistic narrative of mental health that, you know, kind of I had this terrible thing that caused my problem.

Robin Lefever 00:23:10  I then had a treatment episode, and I turned my life around and, and everything was kind of rosy after that. And I just think, okay, great. I mean, maybe, maybe people are doing that, but it's not my it's not my reality and it's not. Most of the people that I see. Most of the people that I see have complex lives, complex things happen. And that general vulnerability kind of remains. And it can be kind of activated in other ways. now that's, you know, kind of awful in one sense, but it's but it also just is. And I'd rather people just kind of tell me the truth and work with that same.

Abdullah Boulard 00:23:48  Kind of term. That's a reality. How how did you get into recovery or to start treatment. in the first place.

Robin Lefever 00:23:59  The easy answer was that it was that it was offered to me. But that's actually also quite important because I think it's, I think every time somebody has got a problem there in kind of two states of mind with it, that's the kind of part of them that's functioning and kind of wants to continue.

Robin Lefever 00:24:18  And then there's a part of them that wants help. and those two parts are kind of flowing every day. and so I don't, you know, I don't think it's about kind of. So I think one of the most important things is to make the offer of treatment available and not necessarily push someone into it straight away. That's why I'm saying kind of with the next generation. I like this idea that kind of my family know that if they want help, they can get it. They can dip their toe in the water. And and if they don't and they don't need it, then, then that's fine too. But it's that general acceptance. So I think one of the things I think about is that at least it was offered to me, and I was for some weird reason, on or whatever. It was a Thursday afternoon or something. I just thought, hey, maybe I'd go and like and I think it's as probably as banal as that in a sense. And I think, you know, I've kind of been through a lot of kind of kind of recovery groups and self-help groups, and there's very often a kind of narrative, of a kind of a rock bottom, that people had to get to this sort of mythical place that was so awful that they couldn't go on.

Robin Lefever 00:25:27  And I kind of think that could have been anywhere. That could have been when I was 11. That could have been when I was 15. That could have been when I was 17 and 23 could have been when I was 40. I mean, why was it that it happened to be with that one time at 17 and then again at 23? Why particularly and I think the most important part of that is that I had the understanding that it was available. It was actually an option that was open to me and there was an understanding around. So I think I think it's more about kind of making the kind of the possibility of treatment interesting and inviting and available than it is about kind of having somebody come to a particular point, you know, because that could have been anywhere, you know.

Abdullah Boulard 00:26:14  So it was not an intervention. It was a really An offer. Yeah. Imitation.

Robin Lefever 00:26:21  Yeah. I mean, I laugh because sorry, because I remember kind of like my parents did do kind of like an early model of intervention, if you think about it, when they said, you know, you can't stay in our house if you use drugs and I, you know, I said, oh, you know, you need to stop imposing your white middle class values on me.

Robin Lefever 00:26:37  I'm kind of like, you know, I'm out of here. You know, I consider myself an orphan. I remember it was just, like, really dramatic, but it's like, I think that's that's interesting because back in the day, there, there were those kind of Johnson model interventions where it was, you know, there was it's probably a disservice to Vernon Johnson because what he meant was to have a kind of systemic, supportive meeting. But the way it got manipulated by the industry was to become this coercive, you know, bullying, kind of ultimatum. And I think that was really well, it wasn't actually the, the original intention. And. And it messed it up a lot. and I much prefer that, you know, doctor Judith Landau and the arise model I. So I'm not a huge fan of hers. And I think the way that she works kind of understanding kind of mental health problems and addiction as part of a kind of systemic problem and, you know, recognizing that kind of all of the family are in a are in a dance and a co contributors to that.

Robin Lefever 00:27:44  There isn't a kind of designated sick person. Yeah. and looking at a kind of crisis like this as an opportunity for the whole family to heal. I just think that's a really lovely and drawing on the resources of the family and the culture of the family, to, to aid that healing. That's really her kind of her kind of idea. And I love that. And I think that's a much more effective way of kind of helping people than the, you know, the kind of parodied, kind of, letter writing kind of thing. I get the intent. The intent was good there, but it quite, quite often just ended up as being a bullying. And then you kind of like you if you've lost the person. Like they lost me. I was out of there, you know, it wasn't my only option. I, I went and safer surfed for a bit and I got a job in the city and, and, you know.

Abdullah Boulard 00:28:36  Functioning that time.

Robin Lefever 00:28:38  I was just functioning very well.

Robin Lefever 00:28:40  I mean, the thing is that it kind of it's a shame, though, because I do feel like there was there must have been always that bit of me that was really, really hurt and really unhappy. That would have been amenable. I like to think, I mean, God, I don't know. I don't know who I was, so maybe I maybe I shouldn't have been, but I'd like to think. I mean, that's how I would like to approach other people. I would like to sort of try to see how we could offer that help in the most kind of acceptable way as soon as possible. and get it in a lot earlier. I mean, it sounds like it sounds like a good thing that I got into kind of treatment at 23. But then if you look at the kind of catastrophe of my teenage years and the kind of, you know, the price, in a way I have to pay for that. I would love it if there would have been help when I was like ten, 11, 12.

Abdullah Boulard 00:29:33  That you were in a different, state of awareness, and, and, and cognitive ability to regulate your emotions and, and altogether. So sometimes it just needs time at the right time to arrive. And I understand that, that families need to heal as, as a systemic, system. Yeah. But it's difficult to realize that it's not just that one person who's bringing that trouble into the family, by consuming and so on that, it can be also me affecting that. And so this self-realization within that community is is important to. Very well.

Robin Lefever 00:30:18  I mean, you could say also broaden it out to the kind of the culture, the sort of the subculture and then the wider culture. And I think that's that's really important. trying to find a way of kind of, you know, I think if you could work in the family, let's just stay with that, you know, the kind of amount of. Yeah, if you could help healing within a family, that's the gift that keeps on giving.

Robin Lefever 00:30:44  You know, if you've got a kid in that family that's going to school, you'd love to think that the school could do great things. But the truth is, if they're coming back and they're sleeping and their primary attachment is to a kind of dysfunctional state, it's just like, it's really unfair. It's really I feel like the schools get blamed and lots of kind of bodies get blamed when actually, you know, really the healing should be focused on helping the family first. And then if you help the family, everything else is kind of going to flow out from that. And if you can help the family and you can help the kind of the subculture locally. the connections that the family have with other people.

Abdullah Boulard 00:31:30  You have, you have to work with the family because if we just work isolated with one person and this person would go back to a family system, whatever environment he lives in. So the triggers are there. The system is still around. So. So falling back relapse is highly problematic.

Abdullah Boulard 00:31:55  Yeah.

Robin Lefever 00:31:55  Yeah yeah I mean it's, it's and it's also surprising that there's a kind of behavioral element to it that kind of even though my behaviors were really dysfunctional, they'd also become a habit and they were a groove that I was in, and it was a groove that I was comfortable in, weirdly, and actually trying to be in recovery or kind of take a new path. It's so difficult because there is a there is that groove that I kind of naturally kind of want to go back into. And actually, that was one of the big realizations that I had that was different between the first time I had those treatment experiences at 17 and 23. So at 17, I kind of thought, really, I just want to take another drink and drugs out of the picture. And then, you know, I'm still going to kind of go to the pub and drink orange juices, and there's only so many orange juices you can drink in a pub back in those drinking days, you know. and, you know, kind of like I could build a great joint and, you know, kind of like I thought, this is an art.

Robin Lefever 00:32:55  You know, I'm not going to waste this being in recovery. I'm going to build joints for other people and kind of hang out in all the same clubs and just like, really dysfunctional lifestyle, but not drink and drug, which is now I think about it just like the, maddest, endeavor. but the big difference between that kind of first attempt at recovery and the second one was the second one. I did want to make a much bigger, more kind of holistic change. I wanted to, you know, not what I would. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend that. Everybody makes quite so many dramatic changes. But I wanted to I wanted to kind of I didn't want to carry on in that career in the city. I wanted to go and do something else. I wanted to get. I suppose I had a vision that I wanted to get back. A lot of the things that I felt my addiction had taken from me. So things like my education and culture and and it was this lovely coincidence.

Robin Lefever 00:33:48  Well, not maybe not a coincidence, but it was a lovely coming together, that kind of early recovery at 23, because I was wanting to live a kind of a new life, and I was kind of open minded, and I was a cliche term, but I was, I was, I was adventurous and I wanted to try out all these things that I felt that my addiction had stolen from me. Like, you know, kind of, you know, education and culture and all the rest of it. And I said to myself, I'm going to go and I'm going to explore all of these things and see, see what I really feel about them. So I put myself into education. I kind of explored art and culture and, and, you know, with an open mind, went to ballet and realized, I still don't like ballet. But, you know, I found lots of other things like opera or, you know, that I was kind of really not open minded to, you know, before, and I kind of think there is that there is that thing about people with addiction that kind of there's kind of one of the character traits.

Robin Lefever 00:34:51  There's an openness to experience, and that's one of the things that kind of gets us into trouble. But it's also a virtue. If we are kind of open to experiences and we're not stuck in the kind of groove of addiction. Then actually there's a really exciting, amazing kind of world, and that kind of passion was like, I suppose, what other people kind of would describe as their kind of spiritual kind of awakening. I mean, that was kind of a similar thing for me in, in, in just having those amazing experiences and kind of. Yeah. And that's, that's kind of never stopped that kind of curious and.

Abdullah Boulard 00:35:30  Yeah, curious nurse the passion or to see that the future has some something positive to give. Yeah. that that's where you can turn. There is always this, let's say, understanding of someone in, in an addiction or alcohol addiction that. Yeah, I can control it, I will detox, I will be out of it, but I can still control it.

Abdullah Boulard 00:35:59  So how how was it for you at that time? Yeah. You mentioned that you wanted to take control in some of the other way, but would it be, would it be a recommend it to start slow, you know, to introduce into treatment in a, in a treatment facility. without having this big need to change completely one's life.

Robin Lefever 00:36:27  So do you mean, like, not stopping drinking? Or do you mean.

Abdullah Boulard 00:36:31  Yes, to introduce someone into. Because if I would, for example, if I'm contacted by by by someone. Yeah, but I want to. If I would tell these people, look, you will not be able to drink forever. Yeah. It would. It would destroy them and they would not be open to go into treatment. Yeah. So where would you communicate?

Robin Lefever 00:36:54  I mean, I think there's a lot of discussions to be had about that particular point in coming into an abstinence based Clinic. And I think that, you know, you can say to people, well, you know, don't, don't.

Robin Lefever 00:37:05  Kind of sort of promise forever. Try, try for a couple of weeks. See if you feel. Better. I mean, if you feel worse, you know, you go back. There's that whole kind of line of thought that's been around forever. But there's another modality which I think is more interesting, which is, a model that I kind of came across in Malta. I want to say maybe 25 years ago or something. It's a clinical caritas to give credit where it's due. And what I saw them do there really changed my thinking about addiction, because they had a kind of set of counsellors who were kind of outreach workers, and they would go into the parks. Malta's quite a small place, so it's kind of easy for everything to be reachable. So they'd have therapists that would go out into the park, and they would kind of be working with people who were kind of quite often homeless, you know, kind of, opiate addicts typically. And they had a kind of harm minimisation approach.

Robin Lefever 00:37:57  So the idea would be, Can we bring you clean needles? Can we? You know, whatever we can do to make your using safe. But they would develop a relationship through that. And they say, you know, there's a there's a drop in center around the corner. You know the shooting gallery or whatever. You can go and use more safely there if you go there. And then when they would go there, they'd be met by somebody who would kind of, you know, meet them and support them there. And then they'd be saying, but, you know, we've also got like a detox unit around the corner. If, you know, if you have a fancy giving that a go. And so then people might go and try the detox. They then had a rehab, they had a halfway house. They had a unit in the prisons.

Abdullah Boulard 00:38:34  Okay. I mean.

Robin Lefever 00:38:35  It was genius. It was well, this is the clever thing. What I thought was genius about it wasn't, just just those options.

Robin Lefever 00:38:44  It was more the mentality that if somebody kind of got to the detox or got to the rehab and then relapsed, they'd go back and be met by the people in the park again, and the guys in the park wouldn't be kind of humiliating them. They'd be like, oh, you know, great to see you. How are you doing? You're in the details here. Did you know James there or John or how did he get on? You know, there'd be like a relationship that would just continue. And so you could kind of conceive of the kind of treatment model as being an elevator that's constantly trying to kind of pull people up, and they might tumble down a couple of steps, but they're immediately caught and kind of brought back up again. And there's been this really weird false dichotomy between harm minimisation and abstinence in our field for this last kind of 20 years. and it seems super weird because it feels to me like it's all part of a continuum. I think if you were to be critical of kind of the lot who are in the kind of abstinence camp, it's that they're not, accessible enough to people.

Robin Lefever 00:39:49  And my critique to the people who are doing the harm minimization, is that they don't have a high enough aspiration. That's controversial to say, but you know what I mean. I the point about joining them up, and I would love it if people in clinics could work in kind of community settings and outreach, and the people in the outreach could work in clinics for a bit to sort of swap seats and get experience of the possibilities, the possibility to reach somebody and inspire them when you've got very little to kind of work with. But also, you know, the, the, the inspiration when you're working with people who've been able to get abstinence and the lack of any moral judgment of where people are on that spectrum. It's about kind of having that elevator kind of, or escalator kind of metaphor of you're just always wanting to kind of pull people up and through.

Abdullah Boulard 00:40:36  Yes. And the beauty about it is also not that it's a one way street. So it, it can go both ways and to, to normalize that understanding of.

Abdullah Boulard 00:40:48  Okay, that's fine. Don't be judged. Don't be. You can try again.

Robin Lefever 00:40:53  Exactly that. Exactly. That reminded me of kind of like treatment from kind of sort of 25, 30 years ago when it was so regimented and it was so rigid and it was all about, you know, you know, kind of it's all going to be jails and institutions and death if you leave and kind of if you leave, you're clearly not ready. I mean, that was a nonsense concept, wasn't it? And kind of like there'd be limitations on the time before you can come back to treatment. You can't come back. Honestly, this used to happen. I mean, it probably all sounds bonkers now. It was bonkers. but people would be told that, and the treatment itself was very coercive. And there's this kind of weird thing about that where kind of. There were a lot of people, because a lot of the treatment centers were kind of born out of the concept house mentality. therapeutic communities.

Robin Lefever 00:41:43  And with everything, there's always like a positive and a negative. And there was a, a lovely aspect of community that came from the therapeutic community, But also inherently in the structure of kind of clinics. I have you come across Philip Zimbardo prison studies, the Stanford Prison Studies. So basically, he's a really interesting, psychologist in UCLA. And he had this psychology study where he wanted to see if he randomly allocated students to be prison officers or prisoners. Yes. yeah. They he would see how they would kind of evolve. And he was all quite elaborate. He had a, you know, cop car that he would go and pick them up in, and the guys had uniforms and stuff, and he ended up doing the get to the punchline. He basically had to abandon the study after three days because the guards became so abusive. and what he was trying to show was that when you're in that kind of position of authority, it tends to abuse. and if you're not careful with the greatest thing, I'd like to think prisons have good in time.

Robin Lefever 00:42:51  But I mean, even even in a clinic where you imagine that they have good intent. it does lead to a lot of abuse and coercion. And that was a really dark part of the kind of treatment worlds industry, history, that I can see what kind of where they were transitioning from having nothing to having kind of these treatment facilities. But it wasn't all great. That was kind of like there was a dark side to that, too, that needed to be. Yeah, that I really hope has changed. But I mean, it's a it's a subconscious kind of I mean, you could look at it in, transactional analysis terms of the kind of, you know, the parent adult child ego states that we all have, and we oscillate between those within a conversation within, you know, within an afternoon. and kind of in a parent ego state will be kind of, you know, giving instructions in an adult ego state. Hopefully we're having a discussion like this. and then in a trial, Diego State, you know, we might be having a laugh.

Robin Lefever 00:43:51  So even in this conversation, we might go through those different ego states. And the point about to is that they kind of believe that, you know, it works really well when you're having a parent parent or adult adult child, child, conversation. But it's like kind of don't don't cross the beams in, in Ghostbusters, you, they like the kind of top diagonal parent to child, but you can't really do child adult or adult parent. That doesn't really work it. It tends to either lock into those three or the diagonals. Now, the common dynamic in a clinic, anywhere where you've got a position of kind of quasi authority, you're going to tend subconsciously to be in a kind of parent ego state if you're not careful. and when we're vulnerable and we're clients, we are going to tend subconsciously to kind of want to go into a kind of trial Diego State. So we're coming into a clinic and we're going to evoke, evoke a kind of parental, authoritarian kind of tendency. And I think in clinics, clinicians have to be kind of aware of that and that view.

Robin Lefever 00:45:05  Yeah. And kind of like stand back and kind of go, hang on a second, how do I stay in adult? Because if you keep meeting people generally as adult or as child, you can have fun with people and stuff. But, you know, if you're in that kind of adult state, you're tending to pull people back up. If they are feeling in a kind of vulnerable, kind of childish state. If you put it in that transactional terms, you're more likely to pull them up into adult. Whereas if you speak to them in the kind of so say somebody kind of deliberately provocative, you know, kind of if you go into that kind of authoritarian parent, you're just going to reinforce that kind of that state, whereas if you can try and hold the adult ego state. So it's a long way round of saying it, but it's just to say that inherently clinics kind of subconsciously fall into that kind of risk of doing that. And it's got to be kind of quite a conscious process for the team to not fall into repeating the kind of Zimbardo prison experiments, because that's how I would explain what happened in kind of like 1980s.

Robin Lefever 00:46:11  You know.

Abdullah Boulard 00:46:12  It's such a beautiful explanation, I must say. And I think the door gate to this is compassion. Yeah. throughout, throughout the organization. But it gets difficult once the client, wants to be more the parent ego, dynamic, especially if we work with, let's say, high networks or celebrities and no known people. So there is also a difficulty how to keep this compassion in a way that, okay, it's still the client and it's still someone who is in need.

Robin Lefever 00:46:52  Yeah, you made me think of a couple of other things, right? I mean, yes, definitely. There's a there's a kind of there's there's a risk that somebody might be kind of approaching you from that kind of parent ego state. And kind of it's important to kind of try and not go to parent as well and just be kind of authoritarian back, but hold the kind of adult, but it'll not be the child and be meek. It's like holding that kind of adult place if we do it in the to terms.

Robin Lefever 00:47:17  But also there's always that super interesting thing, I think in therapy that how you manage, those difficult kind of engagements when a client kind of either falls in love with you or hates you, you know? that's really, really rich, therapeutic kind of material and kind of how you manage that and how you help somebody through that. I mean, I would say if you if you're I mean hopefully it's not. Hey, but if, but if a kind of client doesn't ever have any difficult feelings towards you as a therapist, you're probably not doing therapy, you know, one way or the other. So I kind of think, I kind of think that's part of the part of the process and how we manage that, and how we handle that as therapists is really critical to how they how they kind of, yeah, how they survive it and how they evolve. Because we're going to be feeling probably quite a lot of kind of typical, situations in their, in their, in their world. and they're probably not aware that we are experiencing it as difficultly as we are.

Robin Lefever 00:48:37  I mean, genuinely it might be a quite a kind of subconscious level. but but that's that's the gig. That's our job is to kind of be able to hold that and hold the space and then be able to help somebody kind of work through that. So I think I'm going away from to now and kind of into a different kind of frame of reference. But I think it's a really interesting one, how to kind of hold that space and constantly hold a kind of therapeutic frame. And that's really tricky in a kind of broader clinic. You know, where, I mean, every member of the team is crucial and is part of the therapeutic network. And but they have, you know, different levels of experience and kind of, you know, if they're experiencing like a really difficult period supporting them with that and kind of helping them not be kind of reactive, but to process and understand the psychological process that's going on here is kind of key to to helping the team kind of grow as a therapeutic kind of organ.

Robin Lefever 00:49:40  You really want the whole clinic to be one big kind of therapeutic,

Abdullah Boulard 00:49:48  Intervention learning? Yeah. How how do you do this in your daily practice? Like, now historically that the whole team can, can grow as such?

Robin Lefever 00:50:00  I mean, I think it's kind of really kind of having a lot of. I think it's having a kind of culture where I see I value people based on the positive impact that I see them having on the clients. I'm making one judgment. Does this team member help our clients, or are they are they not? And I I'm not any respecter for their age, their gender, their profession. you know, I don't care about the hierarchy. I just care. How does this person create the, you know, hold the kind of therapeutic space and and that, you know, again, going back to my own experiences when I was in treatment. It was very often kind of housekeeping or the gardeners that I got on better. I mean, the therapists all spoke gobbledygook and this kind of weird therapy speak.

Abdullah Boulard 00:51:03  They had no agenda. Yeah. For you?

Robin Lefever 00:51:04  Yeah, exactly. So I really see the value of the kind of the whole team and, you know, our kind of housekeeping and our, you know, at the Cardinal Clinic, you know, or at promise, they, they are just they are so important to the whole therapeutic place now. It's really hard to kind of be, you know, working in the kitchen and then experiencing quite sort of difficult situations. And so it kind of takes a certain kind of person that wants to work in a psychiatric hospital, even in the kind of, you know, housekeeping or kitchen. but when they work well and when they have a passion for it as well, the impact that they can have is greater than the therapist. Honestly, they really they really, I mean, and they. Yeah. So that's the art of our world, isn't it? Is trying to and that's the interesting part of our world is kind of trying to hold that kind of whole team together, to hold a common vision and to work with the same framework.

Robin Lefever 00:52:11  I mean, and look, I'm realist. It doesn't it doesn't always work out like that. and people kind of groove into it, or they or they don't fit in and they have to groove out. but that's really the model. I think the model is that the whole clinic is, is the therapeutic kind of intent and and. Yeah. Vehicle.

Abdullah Boulard 00:52:32  I agree with you. it's just you said one person. If it's helping this, client or the client. But it can be different. It can be. It can be having much more nuances. one client responds to one person, but the same person would be would be not working well with another. So we cannot just reflect all on, on on this employee or part the, this therapeutic, clinic and concept. so, so also as an organization, I believe it's important to be there for, for for the staff, for the employees interacting, whoever this is, and help them process and learn as a team. So like at our facilities, for example, we do supervision with, with every, every team member, every if there has been a struggle, a particular struggle because every client is different.

Abdullah Boulard 00:53:32  so we, we try to to to work it through and and give a chance to the team. So not make it okay. This is this. The client is not making it because of you. it's not about judging, but no, it didn't work. Now, this time with you, and that's fine. This is. This is because of, It didn't work with this one, but it may work with another one.

Robin Lefever 00:53:56  Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think I think it's also about kind of, not meaning to it to be patronizing at all because I view the kind of therapeutic team as I would my clients, and I view my clients as I would my family. so in other words, it's not from a sort of paternalistic, patronizing kind of perspective, but it's one of kind of compassion and, and wish for growth and wish for the best possible outcome. So I kind of think we should be working with our colleagues in the clinic, in whichever departments they are, as kind of co therapists and in, like you say, in the sort of supervision.

Robin Lefever 00:54:40  And we should be wanting to see them kind of grow and learn from their experiences, just like we would our clients, like we would our family and, and like we would ourselves. I mean, really, what we're seeing manifested in clinics, yeah, is the kind of value system in the ecosystem of the people who kind of work there. And so, you know, kind of holding that is really important. But another point you made I wanted to come back to was about the necessity for kind of different individuals. And I think it's really important that there are different characters in a clinic. And when I'm kind of looking to kind of hire people, I'm always looking for. Yeah. Do I find them interesting? Obviously. But you know, and are they well qualified but also kind of are they actually bringing something different from their kind of cultural experience or that kind of stuff, because I want them to be different, and I want our clients to know that they will be able to find somebody that they like.

Robin Lefever 00:55:43  I'm almost certain that they will find somebody that they don't like. And that's okay with me, because if you've got enough variety of characters, yes, then that's just about who I gel with and what I, what I want, because people are with us for quite a short period of time, is the best chance of them finding somebody that they like, because it's so much easier to kind of learn. I mean, do you remember kind of like 20 years ago, people used to kind of bang on in kind of clinics if they made a therapeutic relationship with a therapist and it wasn't going well, and then there'd be these sort of tedious weeks of why, why isn't it going well? It's like, who cares why it's not going well. If you don't like that therapist, change the therapist. We haven't got time for that. Find the person that you really like, that you're inspired by, that you find you want to work with and with them. I mean, I don't know. It goes back to like, why was it ever okay for comics to kind of think that way? But it was really like that and now it's nonsense.

Robin Lefever 00:56:38  So yeah, I would want there to be a variety of characters and for people to have and literally have the choice. I mean, we do a thing where we kind of evaluate, it's called feedback informed treatment, Scott Miller's work in America, but we're literally kind of asking the client at the end of the session, you know, it was the was the material the right material for you was the, you know, you know, am I the right fit for you? it is, you know, how are you doing? How are you progressing in treatment? You know, kind of getting that honest feedback and which is quite difficult because our clients are, are, by and large, lovely and kind of don't want to kind of hurt our feelings if we're not doing a great job. But actually, what we want a therapist is to find exactly the right fit for them, the right tools, the right therapeutic relationship. And and it's okay. You know, I was like, I want to know if it's not me.

Robin Lefever 00:57:37  And I'm always kind of going, you know, I we were talking about this today. But you know what? I really think, you know, you did really well to talk with the peers about somatic experiencing. I think you'd really like the way that he works. Or have you spoken with Pam about, you know, kind of a psychiatric matter or, you know, kind of another medication that she's been talking about, you know, and I think that kind of, you know, crossover in the freedom to kind of move between therapists, styles of therapy modalities, professional disciplines and to move kind of seamlessly is, is the dream. I mean, that's a really hard thing to manifest as, as you and I both know. But, you know, that's.

Abdullah Boulard 00:58:19  Getting authentic feedback is always very difficult while in treatment or at the end of it. Absolutely. But for example, what we do is we ask questions later on later. After a couple of weeks or a couple of months even. So how has, has has the process been retrospective to understand or get more and reliable, feedback and, and to the point of how how to handle with, with with the team members, to create this therapeutic, environment is to be human first.

Abdullah Boulard 00:58:54  That's our approach, not just for the clients, but for the team members. Yeah. I believe when, when when something goes wrong in terms of, connection to one of the team members, if we are there for that person and show compassion and show support and help through through that, the next client will profit from that. Working with this client, this, this particular person. And that's how we create compassion. It's not about training, reading and all the compassion is. You have to say that according to a playbook.

Robin Lefever 00:59:31  Yeah. No, exactly. That we are, we are, we are. We are modeling a family, aren't we? And kind of how we are with each other, is exactly what we want to show our clients. This is how we can be, I mean, with all our foibles as well. I mean, you know, we've got our kind of quirks and idiosyncrasies and, and, and fallibility, you know, and then kind of owning that, you know, and owning, you know, owning the mistakes and, and is a really important part.

Robin Lefever 01:00:02  And it actually builds trust ironically. Yes. because if, if somebody can actually, you know, admit where they've gone wrong and it's open to kind of making it right, I trust that person a hell of a lot more than the person who's just kind of covering up or whatever, you know. So we're modeling in everything we do in the organization, and everything we do in the organization has a kind of holding effect for for all of the clients as well.

Abdullah Boulard 01:00:31  Where have you been? for your first treatment.

Robin Lefever 01:00:36  I promise. I mean, I came to the family. Family firm.

Abdullah Boulard 01:00:39  You started a promise?

Robin Lefever 01:00:41  Yeah. At 17. Yeah. I mean, that was. I mean, promise started in 1987. It was kind of one of the very early, kind of centers.

Abdullah Boulard 01:00:49  And this worked for you from the first, treatment program.

Robin Lefever 01:00:54  Do you mean, like, has in my first treatment experience? Yes. No, obviously. Sorry. That was the bit we were talking about earlier, wasn't it? About kind of like I went through, a for that treatment episode, and I stayed sober for a year or sober and clean for a year, but then I kind of relapsed, and so.

Abdullah Boulard 01:01:11  I was in the US.

Robin Lefever 01:01:12  Well, no. Sorry. So, okay, so the first treatment experience was a kind of promise. And I stayed there for two weeks. But then I walked out and then my parents sent me straight away to Hazelden. And I went there for two, two weeks and then got thrown out. And then kind of the thing the thing was, when I came back, I did stay sober and clean for a year. I'm difficult times nowadays to use, but but you know what I mean. I was in recovery for a year before I then started using again. And the curious thing about that is I. I'd love to talk about this because this is, I think, a really important point in our field. I then kind of went back into the cycle of using. So did that first treatment episode work, was it successful or not? I mean, this is the big question. Yes. and I'm really inspired by kind of John, you know, Professor John Kelly at Harvard.

Robin Lefever 01:02:06  He's a kind of researcher who kind of spends a big focus on addiction. And one of his kind of papers was about, the period of time that it takes and the process of coming into recovery, because we don't talk about this much as an industry or in the field, and what he what he kind of showed was, on average, from the first point, when somebody has a problem until they first ask for help is on average five years. And he then says that on average, from the first time that someone asks for help until they're able to achieve a year's sobriety is about another five years.

Abdullah Boulard 01:02:46  Okay.

Robin Lefever 01:02:47  And then from that point to having a relapse risk that's super low, like the same as the rest of the population, it takes another five years. So he said, look, don't be don't be kind of disheartened if you're working in the field and you're in this kind of middle bit where it takes people five years from asking for help to to achieving it. He said that is kind of that is part of the kind of process.

Robin Lefever 01:03:14  And I think what he was sort of at pains to say there's long periods of sobriety in there while people are trying to find the right way of doing it, but they're likely to have quite a few kind of relapse episodes. And so, you know, if you don't want to make it about me, but, you know, if you look at my treatment experience, you know, the first time I asked for help was 17. I then had, you know, reasonably long period of, well, more than a year anyway, and then relapsed. And then the kind of final time that I went through treatment was at 23 or so, you know, 5 or 6 years later. So that is actually bang on the average. Now the, the kind of I suppose the problem that I have is that kind of treatment seems to be marketed as a kind of, you know, one off kind of unique experience that is a cure all. And, you know, I just, I just think that's rubbish.

Robin Lefever 01:04:13  I think that people kind of tend to adapt to kind of mental health challenges gradually, you know. So my first dipping of my toe in the water was that two weeks in Kent and then two weeks in America, and then, okay, I'm just going to not drink and, you know, carry on as if everything's normal. That was just the first kind of go. And of course, it's frightening that somebody might go back. And it was, you know, awful that I kind of carried on getting into. But it's kind of normal. And then the second time that I came back to treatment, it was for me a very different experience because I knew what I didn't want to do and what I hadn't really kind of worked the first time. And I knew I wanted to, to try something different. So I was kind of amenable. Now, probably in that period of five years, I don't think the treatment industry had changed very much. So it was probably the same, more or less treatment experience.

Robin Lefever 01:05:14  But I was in a kind of different frame of mind, and I know a different stage in my process of coming into recovery. And I think that's what we should kind of understand and, and acknowledge. Rather than saying, I don't know. I think people make up a big story about why somebody hasn't been able to achieve recovery and why this particular clinic is going to be the kind of cure all and fix all of everything. And I think we're doing everybody a disservice by doing that. I think we should explain more that there is this kind of process, and we're going to do all the things that we can do to accelerate that recovery process for people. But it is still probably going to be a bumpy ride. And rather than trying to to kind of, create a fantasy, that treatment is some kind of unique experience. I think it's better to kind of think about what I was talking about, what I hope to do for my kids is kind of create a culture where people want help and that they enjoy the experience, enjoys the wrong word.

Robin Lefever 01:06:22  But you know what I mean? They kind of feel they feel that the treatment was actually a reward and was it was nourishing and a really good experience, because if they do that, they're going to come back. If they do go, you know, get into further difficulties much sooner and much earlier stage, and they'll project into recovery much more quickly. But I don't think we kind of I don't think we do that very well as a field. I think we kind of set up this kind of fantasy that kind of like there's a unique clinical experience that people can have.

Abdullah Boulard 01:06:58  What can we do different?

Robin Lefever 01:06:59  Be honest, I think, I mean, just I mean, that's the kind of underlying, what can I say? Foundation. I think of of everything kind of therapeutic. I, I want to kind of sit with clients and be able to kind of say, look, we're on a, you know, journey together where we're kind of exploring these different treatment modalities. Please explore it with me.

Robin Lefever 01:07:28  Try, try different therapies, try different therapists. Look at the look at the kind of research I know that's kind of probably a bit kind of too geeky for it to go into too much. But I do think kind of like, you know, there isn't there isn't some kind of magic sauce. I mean, you know, kind of like and, and, and, and information is more and more easily accessible. I mean, you can use kind of AI models to, to say, I've got these symptoms. I was talking with a friend of mine who's got OCD and, and she was saying, you know, I don't want to do this and I don't want to do that. I said, well, look, you know, it's been up to chat GP to actually grok slightly better annoyingly than, than ChatGPT. and have a conversation and say, oh, I've got, you know, OCD and I want a kind of treatment plan. Tell me what the three best evidence treatments are, and then create me a treatment plan for the next three weeks based on those.

Robin Lefever 01:08:23  And I said, kind of see what that gives you. And I think that's where we should be meeting our clients. We shouldn't be sort of selling them on some kind of, sort of secret sauce. There isn't any secret sauce. There's evidence, there's treatments, there's good quality professionals, and we share it. Do you know what I mean? I think so, yeah. That's my little thing about the profession. Kind of. Or the field. Now that my bugbear a bit, I just think.

Abdullah Boulard 01:08:46  No, I get your point. But it's, it's, it's difficult because on the one hand side you could normalize relapse. You know, it's part of the process. But then kind of. Yeah.

Robin Lefever 01:09:02  Isn't it.

Abdullah Boulard 01:09:03  Yeah. That's the question. So. Nor is it, is it, is it the right direction just to normalize it. And what would it make with someone who who is then in recovery? Yeah, yeah, I can have it's part of the.

Robin Lefever 01:09:18  No, no, I love I love this discussion because it kind of comes up so much.

Robin Lefever 01:09:21  And the funny thing is that, you know, because we used to have that a long time ago, kind of in the clinic, there was this thing about kind of, well, if somebody relapsed, there was always this really weird set of judgments that went with it as well. There was like, you know, did one person bring down another? There was always somebody to blame. And it was like a nonsense that that kind of went on around it. I mean, the reality is if somebody is kind of mentally unwell and they have a lapse, I mean, if we really understand addiction as mental illness, which I where I see it, yes. Then, you know, if somebody became more depressed in the middle of treatment, would you throw them out? You know, or if somebody became more psychotic, surely you would just treat that. and it's like I've never seen, well, anybody who's got a genuine addiction problem. I've never seen them go out and be a great advert for addiction.

Robin Lefever 01:10:17  You know, if they go out there, I mean, sadly, generally smashing themselves up with it, they're not they're not going out for fun. I mean, that's what people who don't have an addiction problem probably don't get about addiction. This isn't what we're doing for a laugh. We're we're kind of almost self-harming with with addiction and, you know, kind of. So I kind of think if that person, having had that experience of relapsing, wants to come back in, realizes that that was a mistake and work forward from that, I would work with it. I mean, I remember being in a group in Kent, sorry, I just didn't know where kind of like these trainees came in and, and and they said to me it was kind of like largely a group of people with, with alcohol problems at that time And the trainees said, well, look, you know, if you. You know, would you just work with it? I mean, so I opened the group I was taking and I said, look, does everybody know that the, the you know, if they went and had a drink, I would carry on working with them.

Robin Lefever 01:11:20  And they're like, yeah. And I said, and you all know the green oak as it was then it was like, you know, a mile and a half down that way. Yeah. We know. So why hasn't everybody gone? And my point is that kind of when we're in clinics, we kind of sometimes fall into this illusion that it's our clinic that's artificially stopping people from drinking. And it comes back to that thing about being in two minds all the time. People have come to us because it isn't working. If it is working, you know, they'd be doing it. I mean, and if they struggle with that during an episode of treatment, I think if they're honestly prepared to come back, I mean, because, I mean, that's something I think's interesting is that people outside, even though we, you know, we have a swimming pool, we we make treatment kind of, you know, beautiful food. We make it as pleasant as we can. But that emotional journey, it's kind of one of the hardest things I ever did in my life.

Robin Lefever 01:12:16  And I kind of think people sort of don't really recognize how hard it is to kind of realize that things have been going so horribly wrong and then come in and start talking about it. Now, if you add to that, that somebody, you know, kind of self harmed or they drank or whatever, yeah, why wouldn't you work with that? I suppose it's my thinking. I mean, if they if they want to kind of stay in the place and carry on drinking, that kind of doesn't make sense. There's cheaper hotels than than us. Exactly. You know, so there's that point. But if they've gone out and they've made a made a mistake, that's surely part if we understand it as a mental illness, that's part of the mental illness. We just work with that, I think.

Abdullah Boulard 01:12:56  Yeah.

Robin Lefever 01:12:56  No, I.

Abdullah Boulard 01:12:57  Absolutely I understand that and it's truly about empowering the client. The patient. but at the same time, creating this trust. therapeutic trust that whatever happens, you are here.

Abdullah Boulard 01:13:13  Welcome. This is the safe. Exactly. That's your safety net. You can reach out because what I. What I also often see is like this. Rehab hoppers. Okay. It didn't work up here after. Yeah, yeah, I know you mentioned, like, with the therapist or the individual therapist, but then you lose also the history and, and and the connection. Yeah.

Robin Lefever 01:13:36  I don't mind that so much because I kind of, I kind of feel like maybe they are hopping and they are just trying to find the right fit for them.

Abdullah Boulard 01:13:43  That works for.

Robin Lefever 01:13:43  Them. And that's okay with me, you know? And, and we might not be it. I mean, you must have that same thing where kind of like, if somebody isn't feeling it with us, then, hey, look, you know, it's fine. We're gonna we're going to work with you to help you find, you know, wherever else you want to go. I mean, and and also, if you go there and you want to come back.

Robin Lefever 01:14:01  Well, that's fine too. I mean, it's that whole thing about letting people kind of make those choices and having the kind of, you know, feel welcome that they can come back and that it isn't kind of humiliating or anything like that, which it used to be. I mean, that used to be the kind of mentality of kind of clinics of old.

Abdullah Boulard 01:14:21  Addiction is not is part of mental health. And, and you mentioned also your depressive episode where you had some suicidal ideation and attempt. Yeah. Can you tell me a bit more about this time?

Robin Lefever 01:14:37  The weird thing with kind of depression and anxiety is how they kind of like, oh, actually, it's true with everything, I suppose I was going to say, is it different to addiction? But actually all of mental health problems are weird in the sense that they kind of build up over time. And because they take a long time to kind of build up, we don't really notice. So I mean, I remember with the progression with drugs, for example, kind of like, okay, I'm drinking now, I'm stoning.

Robin Lefever 01:15:03  and then it was all kind of classy. Stay away. But I'm going to do a bit of Coke because it's organic. You know, I didn't do any synthetic drugs and heroin the same. It's kind of organic and, like, romantic, and I don't know, you know what I mean? There's all these kind of rationalizations that we use, and it's insidious how kind of slow but kind of perpetual that kind of progresses. And it was the same with depression, that it was kind of I think there were particular triggers or kind of relationship breakup and stuff like that. But then but then I also wonder, well, well, that vulnerability was always there and it and it kind of built up. And then I mean, kind of like, you know, I suppose trigger warning. But I mean, I kind of like I work with people who are kind of suicidal and and, and I think, I think it is important. I like it is it's not essential, but I think it's helpful sometimes that we've had some of these experiences that that we can openly discuss kind of being in.

Robin Lefever 01:16:09  I mean, it felt like a kind of it felt like a fight in my head every day between a part of me that was wanting was trying to live and a part of me that wanted to die. And so, yeah, kind of lots of trigger warnings here. Please, guys, I don't want to, you know, trigger people, but, and that creates a kind of real feeling of madness, genuine madness. I mean, if the kind of the brain is trying to end its existence and also it just doesn't really work. I mean, when I got really, really depressed and obviously probably quite mentally unwell, it's kind of it's super frustrating because you can tell like, kind of like I like to think and you know, and suddenly to find that thing that I use to exist and to gain enjoyment out of life just doesn't work. I mean, was really miss functioning and was fighting me, you know, kind of hacking. Yeah. I mean, that's really weird. And then kind of like, led to me, you know, trying to take my life and kind of being hospitalized and kind of fighting my way back.

Robin Lefever 01:17:17  And it's kind of. And I just think that's. Yeah, I think those kind of those kind of experiences of being quite mad if we just use the I mean, whether it was with kind of self-harm, addiction, depression, you know, I mean, it's it's another kind of realm of being and, and it's a place that I think it's helpful to kind of have been when I'm kind of working with clients that I kind of, I mean everything to people outside just seems so kind of so, so easy and so simple and yet kind of inside. Trying to work with that in myself or with other people is phenomenally complex.

Abdullah Boulard 01:18:09  It's so difficult for for someone who has no experience with it to understand why someone would, would want to end his own life. What would you what would have helped you in that moment?

Robin Lefever 01:18:27  I mean, the difficulty again, it probably comes back to a parallel with the addiction, because the weird thing was when I kind of tipped over to deciding I was going to end my life.

Robin Lefever 01:18:36  I mean, it's a stereotype. I mean, when I work in this field, and I kind of know that there was a feeling of calm and peace because I made that decision. And so actually, that kind of and I've made arrangements and so on and so forth. so it was over a little bit of time, and I think that's the kind of difficult that's the difficulty. I think, you know, we we really need to be able to kind of help people a lot sooner than that. Yeah. And kind of like and it's the same with the addiction piece, you know, kind of I mean, there's some really great, sort of services. I kind of some, a guy I know down in Dover kind of set up a, club called lads, and it was to try to help men be kind of more open about kind of mental health. And he's a firefighter and also runs a boxing gym. And he got really upset that one of the I hadn't thought of it, but one of the jobs that firefighters have to do is to cut people down after they've hung themselves.

Robin Lefever 01:19:41  And he kind of was cutting down kids that he'd been kind of seeing in the gym, and it really affected him. And he just thought, I've got to do something about this. So he set up this club and he just thought. Do you know what kind of men will come down? And they'll kind of do a bit of boxing and then we'll do like a quasi therapy session. And it's. I laugh because it's really not like traditional therapy in any way. It was very blokey, jokey kind of. But you know what? People were coming in who had walked back from the edge of the cliff yesterday, who were not being picked up by other services. but they would come down to the gym and they would get into that kind of camaraderie. And everybody was interested in like, you know, kind of boxing or they did some MMA stuff there as well. that would be great, I think, to help people with depression as it happens. But but it was actually just the culture.

Robin Lefever 01:20:34  It was just making a kind of safe place that people could come and talk about that stuff. Really inspiring work. And I think, you know, being able to kind of I mean, I think it's always this case, isn't it? It's so difficult because people say, I'll kind of just just talk or whatever. And I kind of think I could talk, but you wouldn't understand. Yes. You know, I could talk, but what are you going to do with it when I tell you that, you know, I've got, you know, again, I've got to be careful not to be too triggering here, but but, you know, I've got a plan, and this is my plan, and this is how I know I'm going to end it. And I that's in my back pocket. And you know.

Abdullah Boulard 01:21:14  What I'll do? You do?

Robin Lefever 01:21:15  Yeah. What are you going to do with that. And that's the problem with the kind of whole. Well, let's just talk about it.

Robin Lefever 01:21:20  And that's why I think kind of having these sorts of kind of self-help facilities, whether it be the fellowships or smart or, you know, that group for mental health lads or whatever. I mean, I think when you can kind of pros and cons, but when you can get people at least in front of you, who you can say that stuff to, and they're not going to freak out. And they've had a similar experience that's that that I think is kind of quite helpful. Risky because you're all potentially walking off the cliff together. But but then that you could say that was the same risk of AA. And that hasn't ended up being the case has it? It's kind of these self-help groups do help.

Abdullah Boulard 01:22:03  I mean suicidal rates are increasing all over the world, but particularly in the Western world and among men particularly also. so. I just think what is it we can do as a society to support that, to reduce it. talk about it. what can we address here?

Robin Lefever 01:22:31  I mean, I do think it just keeps coming back to that same piece about, Making the kind of help available and making and modeling that it's okay.

Robin Lefever 01:22:44  And kind of like We're sort of doing that. I mean, people do very bravely come out and, you know, who are in the public eye and act as great role models. And I'm really appreciate what they're doing. but I think it needs to be more. I'm more interested in the kind of organic and local stuff, like, that's why I mentioned that guy in Dover, you know? it's having that sort of stuff built into the community, I think. And it, it does need to come back to the kind of family level we actually need the healing on a family and local level, rather than these kind of big campaigns. Yeah, I don't think I think that's helpful.

Abdullah Boulard 01:23:23  I don't think it's hating local families. Yeah. You mentioned also AI. Yes, I can can certainly provide information and support for families. But it had also recently a negative effect which was in the media that someone it was he was helped using AI.

Robin Lefever 01:23:42  Yeah. I mean that's one of its problems is sycophancy, and unfortunately it kind of sycophantic to help somebody end their life.

Robin Lefever 01:23:48  I mean, there's also kind of like the, the thing about kind of potentially AI psychosis, which is that when we are interacting with a consciousness which we almost certainly will be in the very near future, but it's a kind of it's an apparent consciousness. I mean, it's going to it's going to get very messy and very confusing. But, I also think that kind of with every technology, there's a kind of there's a, there's a, there's a downside. I mean, when we brought cars in, you know, people got knocked down. when people still get knocked down every day. But we haven't stopped driving. yeah.

Abdullah Boulard 01:24:28  Good comparison.

Robin Lefever 01:24:29  And I think kind of the reason I make that comparison is that I, I also see which people don't talk about very much this amazing potential in AI to offer people help. I mean, I already think I mean, it's been really annoying because as a therapist, I've been trying to see how we can, you know, kind of use it and improve it and kind of having you can tell that it's programmed by kind of California tech pros, because it just comes back with this kind of relentless sort of positivity and chippy, you know, kind of chippy kind of remarks.

Robin Lefever 01:25:03  And it's so annoying because actually what you want is a place where you can have a more honest kind of conversation and explore difficult feelings. And ironically, at the moment I'm finding grok. I hate to say it kind of a better model for that. because especially in the kind of voice mode, if you try it, because it's not trying to be as sycophantic and it's a bit like, you know what? What's real therapy is a real therapy. Somebody kind of chipping you along and just trying to make you feel better. Or is real therapy exploring the kind of the difficult feelings? Real therapy is in the difficult feelings. So that's where kind of grok leans. you know what?

Abdullah Boulard 01:25:52  They will get better. certainly they will. Yeah. And I agree with you. At the end, it's a net positive and, good comparison with the cars. the tell us a little bit about the work you do at, promise.

Robin Lefever 01:26:10  Well, so, so kind of, I mean, promise has kind of evolved because it was, as I said, started by my parents in 87.

Robin Lefever 01:26:19  And, I mean, it was incredibly innovative back then. I mean, it had an addiction question that my dad created, that tested for 16 different dimensions of compulsive, addictive behavior. So if you think 1987, like acknowledging, you know, kind of eating disorders as part of a kind of compulsive process and relationships and gambling and, you know, not just kind of. Alcohol and drugs. That was really pioneering in 1987. And he also kind of started a kind of research program. so this idea that whatever we did should be kind of evidenced and evidence based. and also he enshrined in that early stage the idea that it was a dual diagnosis, as it was called, the show my age now, dual diagnosis back then. So, in other words, it was helping people with other mental health problems, not just addiction. Yeah. And I think the kind of fourth kind of component was his kind of he was a very creative guy. He was a musician. He'd been an opera singer as well as a doctor and like, you know, just I mean, he's now still composing.

Robin Lefever 01:27:27  He's 87 and he kind of composes music every day. He's like, you know, just relentlessly kind of creative guy. And I think he wanted that quirkiness and creativity to be at the kind of heart of the clinic as well. So, I mean, I've carried on with my wife and it's still, you know, it's still kind of following those kind of broad, principles. I think some of the things that have changed have been at one time, it was very much an addiction clinic, and I kind of moved probably 2010 to being more a mental health clinic. I mean, we see a lot of addiction, but probably half of our clients are kind of general mental health. and along with that, I wanted to get away from I mean, again, when it started, it was literally a kind of what's called a Minnesota model, kind of a 12 step kind of clinic. And I'm, yeah, huge fan of the 12 steps. I think it's a fantastic program. But I feel that, you know, we shouldn't be kind of saying if we've genuinely evidence based, and we're saying we're offering clients choice.

Robin Lefever 01:28:39  We shouldn't be saying that kind of. There's only one treatment. We might say there's a preferential, you know, there's a there's a better treatment. But if somebody is kind of rubbing up against it for any reason, if they've got a preconception or they've had a bad experience, what, you know, there are other very well evidence treatments, you know, sort of mi CBT, you know, there are other organizations like Smart Life, ring, etc.. And if we're talking about kind of first 12 month outcome, the outcomes are the same. I mean, there's a huge kind of religious wars about kind of recovery, aren't there? So I've got to be careful that I don't kind of if anyone. But my feeling is like, if it's working for you, that's great. And if it's if it's going to get the same kind of level of abstinence and somebody takes this path, now you've got to look at kind of longer term and stuff like that, and what's going to be easiest and what's going to be most accessible and all that kind of stuff.

Robin Lefever 01:29:30  So there'd be many reasons to kind of probably favor the 12 steps. But it's none of my business to tell somebody that that's what they must do. And I know there are there are kind of equivalent alternatives. So so I kind of moved us away from that and I moved us away from we only had people in recovery with their own experience as therapists, which is a pro and a con. I mean, it's it's great if you can kind of quickly identify with people and reduce the shame and all of that kind of stuff. But the risk is that if the only tool you've got is a hammer, you're going to see every client like a nail. And if all your kind of staff are in recovery, then they work less well with kind of other mental health problems, because they just kind of try to reframe it into a kind of 12 step narrative. And I think that's really unhelpful. Now, actually, we do have really sophisticated kind of therapists in recovery who. But it needed actually a change in the team to balance it.

Robin Lefever 01:30:32  So that kind of there was a chunk of people who are kind of in recovery, but there are a chunk of people who are, you know, who are not who are just professionals as therapists and psychologists, etc.. And that balance, I think, is is really good and is really healthy and changes, you know, and we are 12 step friendly in the sense that, yeah, absolutely. We're going to support a 12 step recovery. But also. Oh God. I suppose I have a bit of a problem with kind of clinics, just introducing people to the steps and taking people through the steps. I, I can't see and I, I love looking at research. I can't see the research that says that working through the steps increase the sobriety. so I'm kind of, you know, I'm struggling with why people are spending all their time on that. Now, I can see masses of research that says that being in meetings, having service, all these things are massively associated with sobriety, but if they're so easy to see and working the steps, isn't that.

Robin Lefever 01:31:38  That kind of brings up a question for me. And I kind of think, you know, really, if you've got this crucial time and somebody is going to be sober and they're going to be open to therapy, I don't think all that therapy time should be spent working through the 12 steps. I think it should be exploring a panoply of therapies. And there's nothing in the 12 steps that I disagree with. I mean, it says that it's easier to stop, that we need help, that we need to do we need to look kind of a deep exploration into our life, make amends for the things that we've done wrong, and, you know, live a good, orderly life now, you know, in kind of balance. I mean, that's yeah, that common sense. Well, not common sense, but they are because they're profound and they're important, but they are the same principles that you would find in, I don't know.

Abdullah Boulard 01:32:23  Right. Behavioral therapy.

Robin Lefever 01:32:25  Exactly, exactly.

Abdullah Boulard 01:32:26  Not on an individual level.

Abdullah Boulard 01:32:28  That's what people are looking for.

Robin Lefever 01:32:30  Exactly right.

Abdullah Boulard 01:32:31  Exactly. Because we are much more unique than we think. And if we put therapy just in a box, it wouldn't work for everyone. No. So flexibility is, is needed.

Robin Lefever 01:32:42  Yeah. And helping people find explore open mindedly. And that includes if somebody is kind of like really rabidly against the 12 steps for some reason I would be interested to explore what that's about, because one of the things that I find funny and and, and enchanting about the 12 steps is it's anarchy. There isn't any kind of there isn't any meeting that you could say is definitively 12 steps. They don't they they are all completely different. And so, you know, if you just get a few people in a room and they can be, you know, as long as they kind of basically follow the core text, it is a meeting. And so like there's there's not much to really rail against. I can rail against lots of people who profess that what they're doing is the 12 steps.

Robin Lefever 01:33:29  He's kind of like underlining every third paragraph of the big book and can repeat it by by quote. But then that's like comparison with, you know, religious fundamentalists who can quote every text of the Bible but don't live like any of the spiritual figures they're supposedly, you know, worshiping. So I kind of think it's the same in kind of AA. And I say, yeah, I think or fellowships in general, and I think, I think it's so available and so easy. You know, if you don't like kind of the meetings that are out there, set one up yourself because there's a need for it. If you found that people don't, you don't find one you like, then there's probably other people like you. Yeah.

Abdullah Boulard 01:34:08  It also shows that more and more mental health, issues coming up or people with mental health, purely mental health, non addiction related, need help and support. Is this the reason why you are also involved now with Cardinal Clinic.

Robin Lefever 01:34:29  Yeah. So kind of out of, I suppose, kind of promise.

Robin Lefever 01:34:34  we work up to a kind of like a certain kind of acuity level, kind of certain severity of problems. So if somebody is, you know, we have 24 hour nursing and we have psychiatrists who kind of is, and so on and so forth. So we're working at quite a high level in the other clinics. But if somebody goes to a point where they need, say, half hourly jobs by the nurses or something, we're not going to we're not going to be able to do that. So we would need to refer them and we would often refer them to Cardinal. and then just like, bizarrely, we found that it struggling and the family was super kind and they kind of connected with us. And it's the weirdest business deal I've ever done. I know she, the, the, the family who did the deal said, well, that's because it's not a business deal. Basically. They just kind of came together and made it kind of happen for us, because they know that kind of Johan and I hold cherish the values.

Robin Lefever 01:35:33  I mean, the founder was a guy called Doctor Leslie Morrish, and he was kind of one of these kind of mercurial, mercurial, kind of, creative pioneers, and brought his very much his spirit to the whole place. And we really wanted to kind of honor that. And we would understand as both, you know, having families, in this field, we would want to kind of carry on that spirit and that memory, and carry on the kind of good work that he started. so, yeah, it came together. But it's interesting moving out of, you know, it kind of starts off where kind of somewhere like, you know, a clinic kind of. Let's go. So and then we're working up to we have the capacity to kind of detain someone under the Mental Health Act if we if we had to. It's not something that we use. and so I suppose we're going up to that level now. I think the reason we don't use it is that if somebody really needs to be like virtually, physically restrained, then that's not really the opportunity to do any kind of therapy.

Robin Lefever 01:36:47  And we're not the right place. So, you know, there are units that that do really good work that literally just keep somebody physically kind of safe. And that's all they do effectively, and that's all the person's capable of receiving at that time. So kind of yeah. So we're now in that kind of higher kind of bracket of kind of acuity, which is which is really tricky. I mean, not for the obvious reasons of the kind of heightened kind of risk, but it's the kind of dovetailing of fluctuating of kind of Therapeutic need because, okay, just because you're kind of right up there at a kind of risk level doesn't mean that you're not able, I mean, at this point, not able to access therapy and wouldn't benefit from good quality therapy. So kind of trying to weave that in into an environment that's set up for kind of high acuity and also try to make it still feel as humane and kind of personal and like, we've got a swimming pool, we've got little kind of, what are they called, like little deers? Basically the Mount Jack, I think they called it.

Robin Lefever 01:37:57  So it can be completely surreal if you're having a therapy session and a little kind of Bambi goes, baby, Bambi goes, like bouncing past the window and it's like, it's. But it's lovely. And I think that, you know, rather than the kind of boxy kind of clinical environments that people so often end up kind of having to use, you know, kind of having that, you know, we've got a piano and it's like lovely listening to people playing or in the evening. They're just kind of, you know, that whole kind of clinic vibe. And it's a lovely vibe. And you, you couldn't imagine you're actually in a psychiatric hospital kind of up at that level of acuity. But that's. Yeah, I think that's the that's the beautiful thing to be able to do. And we were kind of frustrated that people would come to our type of service or your type of service. And then kind of when they were entering other kind of mental health facilities, there was a mismatch. There was a jarring of the kind of culture and the experience.

Robin Lefever 01:38:55  Yeah. and so we really wanted to kind of fill that gap and say, actually, no, you know, kind of people can come here and kind of still feel that it's that same principles of treatment.

Abdullah Boulard 01:39:08  No, it's highly needed. I truly believe it's highly needed. And we get a lot of inquiries where we cannot take on because of the Unstable severity and they would need they would need another setting. We have been struggling in the past also to find the right ones.

Robin Lefever 01:39:27  Maybe we.

Abdullah Boulard 01:39:29  Can do some work.

Robin Lefever 01:39:30  To please.

Abdullah Boulard 01:39:31  Robin. what do you do in your daily life? To stay in balance?

Robin Lefever 01:39:37  Oh, God. Yes. I mean, I honestly, I'm not sure that I do, because I kind of, I still have this kind of drive and this kind of sort of passion. And so I'm not sure that's a great balance, but I, I definitely married better than my wife did. And I would say kind of my kind of family are kind of the most grounding thing that I have.

Robin Lefever 01:40:02  And, you know, it's a cliche, but it's also true, you know, and we work together very much. And she's my wife's I are from the Ivory Coast, and she's looking to kind of try and bring this treatment, to, to the Ivory Coast and to other kind of parts of the region and I think. Yeah, I mean, I think working together and kind of living together and, you know, it's been a long time we've been together kind of 20 years. So, but I think I owe that. I owe that to her, not to me. Like I say, there's only room for one kind of truly mad person in this relationship, and I've taken that slot, so I'd say that, you know, that that, that, that. And also still being still being passionate. I mean, I just think, I always think we're so lucky that we were, you know, for people we like subject we like with people we like, I mean, well, you know, and the subject, they're still kind of very much evolving and it's exciting.

Robin Lefever 01:41:00  So yeah, that is a massive blessing. I don't like.

Abdullah Boulard 01:41:03  To see you. You're eager, eager to learn to stay on top of what works, what doesn't work, and still adjust and be flexible in every little detail you do. that's what I admire about you a lot.

Robin Lefever 01:41:17  Oh. Thank you. Well, you bring us a very, very calming, presence. And, it's been lovely to be kind of interviewed by. I was very anxious in these situations, but it's really been a pleasure. I've been really glad to know.

Abdullah Boulard 01:41:31  Absolutely. I have one last question to you. Okay. What if you could speak to everyone in the world right now? What would you suggest everyone to implement in their life?

Robin Lefever 01:41:44  It's kind of one large thing, which is this kind of concept of kind of the sort of self parenting and the kind of self-compassion thing and learning, to be able to do that bit, because if we've if there have been bits missing in our kind of, parent, the parenting that we were offered when we were kids, I think it's sometimes the most difficult thing to do, but that kind of self parenting and the nurturing kind of the whole inner child thing And that kind of work, I think, is the greatest.

Abdullah Boulard 01:42:18  To dive deeper into that.

Robin Lefever 01:42:19  Yeah, the kind of self-compassion and, and, you know, kind of. Yeah, self parenting because sometimes it's. Yeah. Anyway, I that would probably be the most important thing.

Abdullah Boulard 01:42:29  So we'll do another podcast about that topic solely.

Robin Lefever 01:42:32  I love to love to.

Abdullah Boulard 01:42:33  Thank you very much for taking the time. I appreciate it a lot. The conversation I also appreciate a lot, the work you do, and with integrity and, and compassion and, and, and a lot of passion also for the industry that, that, not just you as an organization come forward, but but help everyone else, to, to to be innovative and think and improve the service provided you to.

Robin Lefever 01:43:06  And thank you for this amazing forum to be able to discuss these ideas. Thank you. You're welcome.

Abdullah Boulard 01:43:11  Thank you, thank you.