Sex & Porn Addiction: Understanding Compulsive Behaviour and Recovery

What is the difference between a high sex drive and compulsive sexual behaviour? How does internet pornography affect the brain, relationships, and emotional regulation? And why are more people seeking help for porn and sex addiction than ever before?
 
In this in-depth conversation, psychotherapist and addiction specialist Paula Hall shares her clinical perspective on compulsive sexual behaviour, pornography addiction, and the psychological mechanisms that drive these patterns. She reflects on her professional journey from marketing into psychotherapy and explains what led her to specialize in working with individuals and couples affected by sex and porn addiction.
 
Drawing on decades of therapeutic experience, Paula Hall explores the growing impact of digital pornography, the emotional and neurological factors that contribute to compulsive behaviour, and why shame and misunderstanding often prevent people from seeking help. She explains the difference between high libido and addiction, the role of stress and emotional regulation, and how early exposure to online pornography can affect adolescent brain development and relationship expectations later in life.
 
The conversation explores:
• Compulsive sexual behaviour and the debate around sex addiction
• The neurological impact of internet pornography and dopamine
• Why men are more commonly affected by porn addiction
• Early exposure to pornography and adolescent brain vulnerability
• Recognizing the warning signs of compulsive sexual behaviour
• Shame, stigma, and cultural misunderstandings around porn use
• The impact of pornography on relationships and intimacy

This episode offers both clinical insight and practical understanding for anyone interested in behavioural addiction, relationship health, digital culture, and the evolving challenges of pornography in modern society.
 
About Paula Hall:
Paula Hall is a UK-based psychotherapist, author, and leading specialist in the treatment of sex and pornography addiction. She is a Senior Accredited Sexual and Relationship Psychotherapist at The Laurel Centre and the Founder of Pivotal Recovery CIC. Paula is also a widely recognized author and broadcaster who has written extensively on addiction, relationships, and recovery.

00:00 Sex & Porn Addiction Statistics and Global Impact
01:05 Introducing Dr. Paula Hall | Sex and Porn Addiction Specialist
03:13 Dr. Paula Hall’s Journey from Marketing to Sex Therapy
05:29 Why She Specialized in Sex Addiction Therapy
06:32 Is Sex Addiction Real? Understanding Compulsive Sexual Behaviour
08:45 Compulsive Sexual Behaviour vs High Libido
10:24 Emotional Regulation, Stress, and Coping Through Sexual Behaviour
12:08 Why Men Are More Affected by Porn and Sex Addiction
13:36 Recognizing the Signs of Porn and Sex Addiction
16:47 Internet Pornography and the Rise of Digital Addiction
18:31 Porn Addiction vs Sex Addiction
21:41 Why Porn Addiction Cases Are Increasing
24:10 Impact of Pornography on Young Adults and Relationships
27:18 Early Exposure to Porn and Adolescent Brain Vulnerability
31:34 Parenting, Prevention, and Digital Awareness
35:12 Shame, Misconceptions, and Cultural Conversations About Porn
41:41 Porn Addiction, Dopamine, and the Brain
45:52 Treatment and Recovery for Porn and Sex Addiction
50:33 Relationship Trauma, Disclosure, and Rebuilding Trust
57:00 Long-Term Recovery, Sex Positivity, and Final Advice

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Transcript

0:00

About 25% of people with sex and porn addiction have actively considered taking their own life. 80% said that porn was having a negative impact on their generation, and 77% want the government to do something about it. When does it become really an issue? Sexual impulsivity has got nothing to do with the libido. I mean, in many respects, sex addiction has got nothing to do with sex. Recovery has got everything to do with being able to be really comfortable in your body and with your sexuality. Yeah, the world has changed considerably in terms of the way we access sexual material. The problem has also evolved and changed. The average age of first first viewing pornography is 11. What we might have considered hardcore back in the day is now just mainstream. The sex is such an important part of who we are. How do you become a healthy, happy, fulfilled, sexual human being that leaves these behaviors in the past. Welcome to the Living a Life in Balance podcast. My guest today is Doctor Paula Hall, a UCP accredited psychotherapist and one of the world's leading experts on sex and porn addiction. I hope you will enjoy, Paula. What motivated you to do what you do today? Gosh, it was a gradual evolution. Probably. So I started training as a therapist 35 years ago, nearly 35 years ago. So it was actually after I had my children. So I used to work in marketing in a big IT company and traveled a lot and started working and training as a therapist, because I think I was always into the idea of what motivated people. What is it that makes people tick? But in marketing, of course, it's trying to get people to buy, whereas in therapy it's trying to help people to to find a better life for themselves. Um, and initially I did some work as a volunteer in drug and alcohol, and then I trained as a couple psychotherapist and then a sex therapist. And it was during my work as a sex therapist that I started seeing people with compulsive sexual behaviors. And I think I've always had a real heart for the for the misunderstood, for the people in the world that aren't really understood, and particularly for men. So I've always worked with men. I've always worked in almost exclusively male environments. Um, and I really saw this as something where men were really struggling. Men were really sort of calling out for help on this and often weren't being understood, were being seen as well, you know, sex addict. Aren't you all sex addicts? That's what all men are like. It's just an excuse for infidelity. Um, it's just a it's a moral failing, all this kind of language and I. Yeah, just got a real heart for it and. Yeah. Well, yeah. Now here I am. And it is the business. Yes, yes. We will get into to the the section. Yeah. Topic part. Um, but you started with marketing. And when I started in advertising agency in Brighton. Yes. Initially. So it was very, very exciting. It was very much the time when. Yeah. You know, an advertising agency in Brighton was very much what lots of people would have wanted to do. Uh, worked crazy hours, um, really enjoyed it, then went into marketing and the IT industry and then that did start getting pretty. That did start getting pretty boring, to be honest. Okay. Um, so I yeah, I was certainly ready for a change by the time I started my family. But yeah, but the marketing is, you know, continued because I still think, I mean, obviously in terms of sort of promoting the business, it's, it's it's turned out to be incredibly helpful to, to, to have those skills. But I think for me, working predominantly with men And I know this is very stereotypical, but working predominantly with men, having had some experience of actually working on the commercial side, having been in business for many years has been quite an advantage. Why therapy? Why working with people? I think everybody wants to work with people unless they want to work with animals, which I didn't want to do. But I think most people want to work with people at at some level. Um, I think when I first finished marketing, I started doing some volunteer work. So I still wanted to work, but because I traveled so much in my job, there's no way I could have done that with a young family. So I started doing volunteer work, and most volunteer work is with with people. But I started doing initially doing marketing for charities. So I was doing it as a sort of voluntary and just got more interested in in what they were, what they were doing. Yeah, yeah. Humans are fascinating. They're never boring, are they? Fascinating. Yeah. It's different from, you know, trying to address the audience. The wider audience in marketing has certainly psychological. Yeah, elements into it. You need to understand that the people behind or working one on one that's more intense, that's more intimate. Yes, absolutely. Most of the time. Although the most successful marketing is when the person that you're speaking to thinks they're the only one that you're speaking to. Yes. So that is the the personal approach is always the one that seems better. Yeah. And why did you get into sex addiction? So I trained as a sex therapist, and I did that fairly early on in my couple counselling career, because sex is such an important part of a relationship. And I think a really important part of who we are. We are sexual beings. However we choose to express our sexuality, we are sexual beings. Um, and I think it's I was also at the time very interested in the medical side of it. So when I was initially training, really understand the physiology of sexuality was also part of the work working with sexual dysfunctions. And I've always been interested in, in medicine. Um, so I think the. Yeah, because it was interesting, intriguing, and possibly because nobody else particularly did it. It's quite a conversation stopper or starter when you say, what do you do for a living? I'm a sex therapist. Yeah. So, uh, a number of taxi drivers have told me problems that their friends have on the journey to see if I've got any advice. Everyone has a friend who has an issue. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, if I if I think about sex addiction as a term, um, what comes into my mind is, is it an addiction? When is it an addiction? And do people who who struggle with, with that topic realize they have a problem, and when do they realize. I mean, the field has changed so much over the last, so it's probably about 18 years I've been working in this, um, and sex addiction was something that very much affected wealthy men who were having multiple affairs, visiting sex workers. There was very much a kind of profile of the typical sex addict. Um, you're going back before smartphones, you're going back to a time when a lot of people didn't have the internet at home. They had it at work, but they wouldn't have had it at home. So, I mean, the world has changed considerably in terms of the way we access sexual material now. So as you can imagine, it's the smartphone porn addiction. It's changed considerably. Um, but the other thing that's really changed is our understanding of it as a condition. So, I mean, you ask, is it really an addiction? The short answer is no, it is not. There is no such thing as sex addiction or porn addiction. It's CSB. Compulsive sexual behavior disorder is what the World Health Organization recognize it as. And it's not an addictive disorder. It's an impulse control disorder. So technically it's not an addiction. But for most people who are struggling with this, they experience it as an addiction. And hence that tends to be the language that they use. But where we're at at the moment, it's not actually classified as an addiction, though. Lots of people think that will probably change. But it's I mean, it's changed enormously over the last however many years and will, again, with AI. A changing the industry as well. Yeah. It's um, I mean, if I think about people and, and all the people we, we have in our treatment center are also they everyone has an individual drive to sexuality. So less lot when does it become really an issue. Sexual compulsive addiction. Whatever language you want to use has got nothing to do with the libido. Yeah, and that's a common confusion. So it's nothing to do with sex drive. It's nothing to do with libido. In some respects, it's easier to think about it. Um, along the same lines as perhaps an eating disorder. So somebody who is perhaps chronically obese, someone who compulsively over eats for comfort, aren't hungrier than other people. It is not coming from appetites. Yes. And no amount of food is actually going to satiate the appetite, because that's not where it's coming from. Um, it's actually, you know, overeating, using food as a way of self-soothing. It's coming from a place of self-soothing, of emotional regulation. That's the function of it, not appetite. So generally, when we're working with people, um, they often have actually no idea what their libido is, in the same way as someone who is chronically overweight, probably hasn't experienced hunger for a long time because they've always eaten before they've had chance to get hungry, so they've not actually experienced it. So part of the work, and this is very much where the psychosexual therapy comes in, is about helping people to get in touch with their libido again and beginning to really recognize what their sexuality is. I mean, in many respects, sex addiction has got nothing to do with sex, but recovery has got everything to do with being able to be really comfortable in your body and with your sexuality. Yeah. So it's also about being disconnected from your body to feel what is right. Well, what is your personal needs to sexuality. Absolutely. Yeah. And and of course with that comes many other issues the relationship issues and all the needs met, etc.. Yeah. And when when you think about the emotional side, because if we think about, okay, sex addiction, if we still stick with that term, um, what what emotional underlying Causes could have effect on on the on the compulsive side. On anything is the short answer. I mean, generally people are talking about, um, probably stress is the most common one they'll be talking about. Um, so remembering this is predominantly men we work with. I mean, the research shows that there are quite a few female sex addicts as well, but they don't tend to present for help. But particularly when around pornography, there's certainly we know more and more women that are struggling, young women struggling with pornography addiction. Um, in terms of the emotional regulation. So it tends to be stressed that the guys are talking about is a way of managing stress at work, managing overload, managing a huge sense of responsibility. You've got to earn a living. I've got to run a company. I've got to make sure I've got food on the table. I've got to do this, that and the other. And my mother's ill could look after me. Mother got to take the dog for a walk. Having that place, particularly getting online, looking at the sexual material, becomes a refuge. It becomes a place of this is for me, this is my place and this is for me. And maybe getting validation for me, someone going for a massage or whatever it is who's looking after me. I get to be center of attention now rather than looking after everybody else. That's a kind of a coping mechanism. Oh, absolutely. People like, like all addictions is a coping mechanism. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. But why why are men more affected? Uh, are they more, uh, affected by stress or, and why do they choose more likely, let's say, sexuality, to soothe their feelings rather than women. So we know that generally men struggle with addictions more than women across the board. Yeah. Uh, the only real differences around eating disorders and shopping addiction, which I deny is a problem at all at this issue anyway. But we won't go there. Um, but so, yeah, across the board, men tend to struggle with addictions more. And quite possibly it's to do with the narrative that men have around masculinity being able to talk about their problems, being able to turn to people for comfort. You guys are the ones that are meant to be strong. Big boys don't cry it, manage your emotions, all that kind of stuff. So addictions become a way of self-soothing, kind of across the board. Um, I think in terms of the wise sex, I think, frankly, because it's so accessible, there's no hangover in the morning. Um, there's no come down from drugs or whatever. It's not illegal. Assuming it's not illegal, it's not illegal. There's no real side effects. If you say you're working late at the office or you've got to put a few more emails out online, there's no side effects that that's not what you've been doing. So it's much, much easier to hide. It's incredibly accessible with the smartphones now incredibly accessible and frankly, until fairly recently. It's it's a lot of people just didn't know that it could become compulsive. They just didn't know that it could become an issue. And you asked the question earlier about how do people know when it's begun to become a problem? And again, that's that's really tricky because with alcohol it's because I've got a hangover again or it's the empty bottles. Oh my goodness. There's two empty bottles. It's seeing your dealer more often. It's taking more risks. It's gambling. It's losing more money having to, you know, going into debt. Um, but with this often there's no side effects. So it can take a long, long, long time before people actually go. I think this is a problem. So for most people, they don't recognize it's a problem until they start seeing the negative impact it's having on other areas of life. And that could be sexual problems in the relationship. Withdrawing from the relationship, partner finding out that you haven't been working late at the office. Um, so it's these other problems developing, and then when they try and stop and can't, that's when they begin to recognize that that it's an issue. Yeah, absolutely. You can be very high functioning and and nothing around you realizes. Yeah. But you also mentioned now porn addiction. Um, but if we think about sex addiction and porn, what was before the internet was was there any type of sex addiction already? Yes. But it would have been quite a different profile of person because you needed money basically. So generally. And again, in terms of why men? Because it's much, much safer for men to have casual sex than women. I'm assuming, you know, we're talking about heterosexual people here. It's much, much safer for you to have stranger sex than it would be for me. Yeah. I mean, even if she's strong, you'll probably outrun her. You could probably run faster some way, but for women, casual sex tends to be more dangerous. Um, there's always been more sexual services aimed at men. So you don't tend to. You do get some male sex workers, but they tend to be gay male sex workers. You don't get many, um, heterosexual ones. And again, that probably goes down to some evolutionary safety issues. So in the early days, it probably would have been nearly always paying for sex or casual sex. And on both of those the services are available for men and um, yeah. And are safer for men. But now, of course. So when I first started working, it was much harder for it to become addictive, because if you wanted to see a sex worker, you would have had to have gone to to your local phone box. Um, half of which don't even exist in your local phone box, or pick up a magazine and looked at the numbers in the back. And then you'd have to telephone and you know all and it can you fit me in? And I can't see you till next Wednesday. This is hardly compulsive, you know. Impulse control, I said, and I think, oh, you know what? I'll have a cup of tea and go to bed. It's there's no point. And so it would have been really, really difficult. And with pornography there's only so you can't turn the pages fast enough. And once you've read it reads porn magazines, once you've looked at all the pictures in the porn magazine, you're done. You're going to go over it a few times, but you don't get the novelty. And we know that it's novelty that really, really drives pornography. So the internet has absolutely changed the profile of somebody with a sex and porn addiction. And for me, there isn't really any distinction. So for a lot of people where it starts off with pornography, the point at which they reach out for help is often when they've gone on to the webcams. Yes. So the only fans type sites, it's getting into the webcams, going on to the chat sites, looking at sex worker sites, maybe going offline for the first time. That might be when they they reach out for help. But really, if we were talking about drugs or alcohol, we wouldn't make a distinction between those that drink whiskey and those that drink beer and those that drink. It's your dependency on how the behavior makes you feel that classifies it as a problem, not what type of behavior it is. So it makes a difference in terms of recovery. So for example, if you're working with somebody, um, I was working with somebody recently that had got very into BDSM sex was going to a lot of the dungeons that, that kind of thing. Um, gaining into recovery and claiming back your sexuality, working through your sexuality is going to be different for somebody who's engaging those kinds of activities as opposed to something else. Because, of course, abstinence is not the goal. And that, again, is the real critical difference between this and any other type of addiction. Is there a difference between sex addiction and porn addiction and is it. There are. I mean, there are so many porn addicts who've never had sex because the internet's there. It's just the age, average age of losing your virginity over the last since the iPhone or the smartphone that has gone up and up and up and up. And there's also huge generational differences here. I can't work out what your your age is, but you can certainly remember before the internet. Yeah. Whereas I suspect some of the others here can't really remember before smartphones, that would have been the first thing they were introduced to. So they've had accessibility to porn ever since they hit adolescence. So it's also very different working with men who had a pre-internet sex life and working with the. So the younger guys, I mean, it's up to 35, 38. I think when the smartphone came in, um, that's quite, quite different because they've got quite a different sense of their sexuality quite often from older guys. Okay. If there is no difference between the sex addiction and porn addiction you mentioned. However, men suffer more from sex addiction, but women more porn. Some of that is to do. Yeah, to do with availability and accessibility. So that seems to be beginning to change. And I think there there are cultural culture changes as well going on at the moment. So still, having stranger sex is still going to be more dangerous for a woman than it is for a man. And that unfortunately, unfortunately, fortunately, whatever is an evolutionary fact if you're straight. Um, but the pornography industry is beginning to catch up, and there is more and more porn that is actually tailored to women now. So we know there's a huge piece of research, um, by LED Bible that just came out last, um, 22nd to two weeks ago. Um, and the Bible is the, um, the largest social media production company in the world. They have, I think there reaches over 500 million people. Two thirds of 18 to 35 year olds. They reach a big percentage of women as well. I mean, it's a huge social platform, and they've just done a piece of research recently, um, looking at the some of the gender split between men and women who watch pornography, those that feel they've become dependent on it, what kind of porn they look at, what their reason is for looking at it. So there's yes, society is changing as sexual landscape is changing. And I think what it means to be a woman, what it means to be a man, is also changing a heck of a lot of change going on at the moment. So the problem has also evolved and changed. And the same is happening with alcohol to a certain extent. We've never had such a sober generation. Yeah, alcohol is really beginning to go out of fashion now, so I think there's going to be less and less people presenting with alcohol problems, drugs. However different types of drugs is. Fashion going in different directions? Do you see in your practice the numbers growing? Oh yeah. The industry growing. Yeah, absolutely. So the the Laurel center, which is the therapy organization where a team of 25 therapists now all around the UK. And we've also got a practice in Singapore and in the Netherlands as well, and in Belgium. So what people providing the service there as well. Um, and uh, yes, I need to get on the recruitment drive again because we're full again. And then more recently I set up the not for profit organisation Pivotal Recovery, because there are so many people who cannot afford therapy or just aren't ready to reach out for therapy, because there's so much shame and stigma around this. So and yeah, pivotal is, yeah, exponentially growing as well. What are the underlying causes why these numbers are growing. Is it because more possibilities are there so people can reach out for help? Or is it? An interesting, interesting question I think so the because it hasn't been recognized as a condition and still there is a lot of dispute around it. For so long people haven't talked about it. So the lad Bible campaign. So I'm one of the charities that have been partnering with Lad Bible on this, um, has been absolutely huge in terms of beginning to get the conversation out there and getting particularly young people to start talking about Paul. Um, I mean, one of the stats that came from it. So this was 5500. Gen Zers, Gen Z is, um, 80%. So 80 zero, 80% said that porn was having a negative impact on their generation. 80% and 77% want the government to do something about it. So young people beginning to say, this is a problem, this is an issue. and actually we need some help in actually navigating this landscape. I think the older people have taken a while, and obviously I include myself in that to actually catch up with what's happening. Um, so certainly we think so. The latest research is 4.6% of the UK population struggle with CCPD compulsive sexual behavior disorder. So 4.6% gambling is 3.1%. And it's and we have services and we have most of the rehabs. Now we're working in gambling to a lesser or greater extent. Um but yeah compulsive sexual behavior disorder is 4.6%. Do you think because of because of the increase of sex and porn addiction, um, that that could be having an effect on, on young adults having less sex then also. Oh, absolutely. Less babies? Yeah, absolutely. You don't have to empty the dishwasher first if you just look at porn or do any other chores or get up with the kids in the morning or have any foreplay or anything. Yeah, absolutely. And tons of research demonstrating that. I mean, obviously it's, you know, it's important to make it clear there are many millions of people out there who watch porn recreationally without any problem at all. Yes. In the same way as there are many millions of people who drink alcohol without any problems at all. Um, but some people are more vulnerable to developing an addiction than others. And, you know, we know that from all the other types of addiction. Um, and I mean, for me, I'm just really passionate about getting the service out there for those that do develop the problem and early intervention. Yes. Because what's tending to happen is that people aren't reaching out for help until they really have hit some kind of rock bottom. But if we can start talking about it more, then maybe actually we can start having more intervention at an earlier, problematic stage before it becomes addictive. And it's there are different problems probably. Also if you are a single in this issue or if you are in a relationship. Absolutely. What effect it has on your relationship, on your sexual. On your. Yeah. What are their numbers? You know how many. Single and how many. Relationships relationship? No. It used to be that we tended to only see people who were in a relationship as it was. The classic was when the partner had found out that was the classic. Now we're talking about it more. We are getting more and more younger guys. So we run residential programs, and for each group of eight, there are probably there'll probably be at least three or maybe four that are under 35 and quite a few single guys. Um, so because I think people are beginning to recognize, because we're talking about it more, recognize it more often for the for the younger guys, it's they've always assumed that they would watch less porn when they got into a relationship and it just genuinely wasn't a problem. And when they weren't in a relationship so they didn't even think about it much. Um, and they always assumed once they got into a relationship that it would stop. And of course, it probably will have done for six, 12 months because that first energetic, passionate stage of a relationship, absolutely brilliant. Fantastic. But then it starts creeping back in. And for them often, or they just don't get into a relationship. I've worked with so many young guys who I need to crack this before I get into a relationship. I need to crack this before I get into a relationship, because I know that it will sabotage the relationship. Okay. So they are aware of the situation and they want to work. And are there differences in terms of age groups? Like and how early do do the young ones get into porn and porn addiction? I mean, the latest thing in the news has been, I mean, just this week or or or a a Buddha. Yeah. If you know him one strictly. If anyone who knows his interest strictly, you know and, um, came out on a podcast talking about his porn addiction and one of the things that he attributed it to and this absolutely the statistics we got were pivotal back this up as well. His first exposure to pornography was when he was nine years old. Wow. And the, um, so the research that we have an ongoing I'm very into research. We have an ongoing sort of research happening with pivotal recovery. And, um, I won't be able to get this quite. It's over 50%, 51%, uh, saw pornography under the age of 15. And of those, I think it's about 18% were under the age of 12. Okay. Um, so and we know from the, um, Children's commissioner report that came out in August this year, the I think the average age of first viewing pornography is 11. Mhm. Um, and that's not going to be damaging for all children. A lot of children are going to be like, hey, that's gross. What on earth is that? And it's sort of shown around the playground and what have you. But again, for some who are vulnerable and certainly already talked about his story, about how he was in quite a vulnerable place in his life and it became his comfort blanket, it became what he went to. And that's often what I hear in the therapy room or on the residential is the guys sharing as they got into adolescence and they were discovering pornography, which is so easy to discover now with the internet. Um, if that happened to be the same time as they were getting bullied at school, where they were being friends, zoned everywhere when it came to relationships, parents were going through a divorce, struggling with poverty at home or whatever. Um, and remember, the vast majority of this is free, which is also the reason why. Accessible all the time. I mean, alcohol. You need to go and get it somewhere. Drugs. At that age, you are more vulnerable from what you get from the internet. So it you know, it starts off as recreational and then, you know, it becomes a a world to escape into when you're struggling. And probably you're much more vulnerable at that age group. Neurologically, yes. Neurologically you are. You are also not connected to your feelings, emotions you cannot regulate. If we think about the underlying cause, being not able to regulate your feelings and emotions, how you function in the world. So for any type of addiction, probably, but specifically because it's accessible sex and porn addiction is. But also because we know that. So the two sort of distinct stages of, um, sexuality, you've got puberty, which is to do with the body. Yes. And that's what's happening. And the changes that are happening in your body. And we know the average age of puberty is actually getting lower. So a lot of people, girls and boys, are hitting puberty younger than they used to, and probably because we have good diets these days. So it's not necessarily a bad thing. Um, adolescence, on the other hand, is the neurological changes that are beginning to happen in the brain. Um, and the, the, the age gap between. So puberty and adolescence used to happen around the same age, and now it's quite distinct. So what's happening now is that there are an awful lot of young people going through puberty. So they're getting the sexual sensations, the sexual pleasures, they're feeling all of that. But in terms of the changes within the brain, which includes sort of the reward centers, dopamine centers and the development of the neocortex. So the breaks basically. So the the, the go, go, go section of the brain is getting stronger and stronger. And you breaks are really not in adolescence. It's terrible. Um, and because they're getting more distinct, that means that the whole kind of, um, sexual development is really changing. So again, that's one of the risk factors with early exposure to pornography. Before the brain has started going into adolescence, there's less ability to to rationally, um, analyze what's what you're looking at, what's going on, what's happening? Yes, I'm a father as well. And I have young children in that age group. What can parents do to prevent, um, sex and porn addiction or access? I can just limit it completely. How how what would you. First and foremost, don't be naive. That is the biggest problem. That's not going to happen. Not to my boy. He's. He loves his mum. He's sensible. He's. Yeah. Talks to me about anything and everything. Don't be hoodwinked. Um, so in the UK now we have um Ofcom introduced in July age verification. So in theory, in theory, you can't get on to adult content until you're 18 and you need age verification. Um, if you want to know how to get around age verification, if you Google it, you'll find a 12 year old boy who's done a YouTube video to tell you how. So it's so easy to get around. And, um, you mentioned earlier being in Dubai. So I know when I was working in Dubai, very quickly, you learn how to get onto the VPNs because the whole country is locked down. So you'd think they'd have no problem, wouldn't you? Absolutely not the case. So learning how to get on the VPN was what I was doing when I was training in Dubai. Um, so a lot of young people will get on the VPNs. They'll find other ways of doing it. But also we tend to think of pornography just being accessed on porn sites. And again, that's really naive. If your kid's got a PlayStation then get on it through there. Mhm. Yeah. PlayStations are attached to the internet. They'll be able to find it through that social media. Image sharing. I mean just in the playground and you know sharing various apps. They're trying to outlaw a lot of apps now will make them illegal but they're not there yet. If they've got a smartphone at all, they're going to have some kind. Of. Access. So it has got to be. I mean, again, one of the, the, the things that we're trying to really kind of campaign the government on is having much, much better sex education. That includes digital literacy around these issues as well. Um, because young people are going to find this stuff and supposedly you can't buy alcohol to your 18. Yeah, yeah. Since when did that stop groups of young people having parties? It never has. Um, so there's got to be education. There's got to be conversations about it. And probably at an earlier age than you think. Yes. That actually you're going to see pornography. Mhm. You're going to be it's very and not shaming. It's going to be very natural that you're curious. Sexual curiosity is such a human. Mhm. That's that's fine. You know because there is a difference. You know growing up in an open society where you have information and they are accessible. But versus being in a cultural environment where everything is a taboo and then you shouldn't and get out of fear. But because it's accessible, I just think these children, there are still children growing up. The brains are not developed, as you mentioned. How how can they find the difference between what is right, what is wrong? Where is the difference? Because I've also seen it with with my with my daughters at school. They built these WhatsApp groups and, and and now particularly with Snapchat. And they send each other and then it's gone. You know, you have to watch it and then so and they have been sharing in groups also pornographic material. So it doesn't have to be online on, on, on, on a website. So but the school did it good. So they made a topic out of it. They collected everyone and they spoke about it. So so you need education for them to realize where are the boundaries? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think if I might pick up on the what is right and what is wrong, I think you have to be careful with the moral judgment. As soon as you tell a kid something's wrong. Yeah. Most of us, in fact. Don't touch the plate. It's hot. Oh, yeah. First thing we do. Um, I think what's healthy, what's positive? Yes. What's life affirming? What could be damaging? What could be harmful? What's confusing? I think if you tell kids that's wrong. And that's right. You. Of course. Yes. Right. We won't tell dad next time, then. That's the biggest struggles being a parent, right? Yeah. So how do you. How do you need to speak that? I think it's talking about finding out what their experience is, what they think. Is it confusing? What's helpful? What's not? How did they feel about that? Did it make them feel good? Didn't make them feel uncomfortable. Not very good. Yes. And I think getting away from the kind of binary thinking. Because it's confusing. Yes. It's confusing. And how do you know what's right and wrong? Because there's so much of it is a matter of taste as well. And why is it that case? Why is it okay for that person and okay for that person? They get confused about that and you get them. Will you do it? I'm not sure if they do their own pornography, but of course we have all these mixed messages with children. You're not allowed to to do that. But I am because I'm a grown up. Well, which of course is true, but yeah. And and inform yourself as a parent also inform yourself about the situation and how. Because what you what you just did is you ask questions to try to understand your child and, and what feelings come up and and not no judgment. No. Yeah. No boundaries. And I think understand that pornography is not what it used to be. It is not what we might have considered hardcore. Back in the day is now just mainstream. Yes. Um, so the yeah, what defines pornography really has changed considerably over the years. And I think, again, that is something that a lot of parents aren't aware of. But then you have to be careful not to go all the way to the other extreme, which is it's all violent, misogynistic, dangerous. You're going to die. It's terrible. It's awful because that's because some of it is still quite vanilla. Um, so recognizing that when we, you know, we're talking about this word porn, but it covers a huge, huge, huge breadth of material. If, if, if I think about sex and porn addiction, it's it's still a bigger taboo. Uh, there is a lot of shame involved in it, so it's difficult. Also, it depends on what culture you grow up to speak about it or to realize it's a problem. So what are other what? What are misconceptions around it? And and also in relationship with shame probably. Um, I think it's misconceptions. It's it's not a problem. And there are there are still unfortunately kind of a very small section of the, um, sex therapy community who think that talking about sex and porn addiction is pathology using diverse sexuality, um, which is incredibly, um, unhelpful. And maybe some have done that in the past, but there's still a few denying that this really is an issue. And I think that really is kind of having your head in the sand of what's happening with culture and society out there. Um, another mistake sometimes within the addiction field particularly is, well, it's a secondary it's not that serious. Um, again, quite big pieces of research, but also the research that we've done with pivotal. About 25% of people with sex and porn addiction have actively considered taking their own life because of this problem. This is not a small. Yes. Issue. Um, so thinking it's well, it's, you know, it's not it's not that bad. It's not it's not life threatening. It's not as serious as the the other addictions. Um, so I think that's another misconception. Um, I think also that, um, for some people, there's the idea that it automatically leads to offending. So sometimes when I've in whatever circles mentioned that I work in, um, sexual porn addiction, they say, oh gosh, I don't know how you could work with offenders or I couldn't do that. Um, about 10% of our work is with offenders. Unfortunately, that is what will get some people reaching out for help for the first time will be because they've offended. Um, so if you work in this field, you really need to know what your law is and what the international law is. being aware that your company is international. You need to understand your international law around this. Um, so that automatic assumption that leads to offending can make it very difficult. Um, I think, but I think also that when you talk about shame, sometimes there's an assumption that the people that reach out for help, who feel shame, feel shame from kind of a moral perspective that they think pornography is wrong. I'm a porn addict and porn is wrong and bad and I shouldn't be watching it, but that's not generally the case. Um, the majority of people that we work with don't have any moral objection to the behavior. It's the amount of it and the dependency on it. And again, if we think of alcohol, that makes sense. The majority of, you know, majority of alcoholics in recovery don't pathologies alcohol. It's not for not for them. No thank you. But if you want a glass of wine then obviously that's that's fine that we're not mythologizing the alcohol. It's the dependency that creates the shame. And the same is true with sex and porn addiction. It's not that they necessarily have any moral kind of, you know, incongruence about the behavior per se. It's the fact that they're lying to their partner. They're choosing porn over sex with their partner. They're going home early from the pub rather than going out with their mates because they'd rather look at porn. Um, and it's that it's the dependency on it that creates the shame. As you mentioned, the differences between other addiction types with alcohol or drugs or if, if you're addicted to, let's say, a prescribed medication by by your doctor, there is no shame involved. And probably you don't blame yourself like the same. Uh, like with sex and porn addiction. We talk we talk about it a lot more. And actually, I mean, you say that you're in the addiction field, so we we we don't have a forbid. If we did, we'd be totally in the wrong business. Um, but I know for some young people that I've worked with in alcohol recovery. Um, this is not particularly at the centre, but that I know working with in alcohol recovery. Um, not being able to drink like your friends, being the one in the group that's got a problem is difficult and it's not. And that. Well, and the shame isn't so much that I've got a problem with alcohol is what I've done when I was drunk. Yes. Yeah. It's the. That's where the shame is that I got so drunk that probably. Yeah. Wet myself, I was sick, I had to be carried home, I couldn't remember I. That's why the shame. Effect. Of it. The consequences. Yeah. And that's the same is also true with sex and porn. It's often it's the consequences rather than the behaviour itself. When we talk about the biology of the effect of sex and porn addiction. Um, what's the role of dopamine in our body and our brain, and how it's different from other addictions? Um, it's probably not. Research is in early stages at the moment. So in terms of, um, behavioral addictions generally, we there's more and more research that's been looking at behavioral addictions, because obviously you've got gambling and gaming that are now both recognized in ICD and I think in DSM as well as addictive disorders. Um, but there's a whole body of research going on now, uh, looking at kind of on online internet based disorders. I mean, it might be the what we do is we rather than separating them out, we will have internet based disorders, which might include shopping, gaming, gambling, porn, um, social media, a whole load of different things so that we're not quite sure academically. They're not quite sure how they're going to classify these things. Um, but looking at the behavioral addictions generally, um, certainly what's known is that there is a dopamine element to it. What they're noticing particularly is that and this I don't know if it's different to chemical addictions or not, but I certainly know it would be a bit controversial. But we know more and more with behavioral addictions that it's a spectrum disorder. In other words, it starts as recreational. It becomes increasingly problematic and the changes in the brain are happening where it becomes problematic. Um, so there's that's when it starts really affecting dopamine and the it becomes very much a dopamine disorder. And then as it increasingly becomes, um, addicted and actually it's, um, much, much more habituated. So generally and this is true, we know with obviously chemical addictions, people with a heavy alcohol usage aren't drinking because they're sad, depressed, or struggling with stress. They're drinking because they drink. Yeah, they drink because they're an alcoholic. They drink because it's Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, whatever. They drink because I'm awake. And the same is true with the behavioral addictions. It just becomes I do it because this is what I do. So when it really becomes habituated. So looking at the brain changes that happen between the, again, the reward center, the dopamine center in the brain and the neocortex, the glutamate pathways and the decision making pathways. We're certainly seeing very, very similar patterns happening with behavioral addictions and the chemical addictions, but across the spectrum. And I know in, um, I'm getting into an argument some years ago with somebody, you can't be a little bit addicted. So it's like being a little bit pregnant. Yeah. Uh, was what was saying. It's just not a thing I thought. Well, I think it is because you do get problem drinking where you're. Really. Yes. And yeah, I think it probably is. I think there is more a spectrum. Yeah. How can we tackle sex addiction and and porn addiction. Wow. How is the approach of treating it. What do you do with the individual? What do you do as if someone is in a relationship? In a family situation? What's your approach? I mean, the first thing we need to do is talk about it more. For sure. We need more podcasts. We need to be talking about it a lot more. And I think in terms of reducing stigma and shame, just just talking about it is is the first step. And I'm, I'm, you know, very, very pleased that Ariya Buddha did come out this week talking about it. And I think that takes a lot of bravery for a celebrity to, to begin to talk about their struggles. But I think that's really, really, you know, helpful for so many people. Um, so talking about it more in terms of the actual treatment process, um, I mean, the first and foremost assessment, you do get a lot of worried, well, particularly with porn addiction. So you do get some people who I think pornography is morally wrong, but I still look at it every Friday. Therefore I'm an addict. It's like, oh, you know, you're not. I mean, maybe we need to explore how this is impacting your values and what. But it's not an addiction. Um, so assessment is really important to really define whether or not it is a problem. If it is, um, in some respects, it's the same as any other addiction. It's being able to really explore the drivers, the motivation, what's going on underneath the cognitive distortions that are stopping change, relapse prevention, all of those strategies and techniques, the bit that is different, two bits that are different, probably one is, um, the impact on the relationship. If somebody is in a relationship, um, you probably don't. You will not likely to discover your partner's an alcoholic and has been hiding it for 30 years. You know, the chances of that being kept hidden or it's you'd have to be very wealthy for it to be a hidden gambling problem for those years as well. You can discover your partner's being a sexual pawn for 30 years and have no idea. To codependency absolutely does not fit with this because it can be completely hidden. Um, so the impact on the relationship and often for people in a relationship and their partners just found out that is the most immediate thing. They sat here seeking help. I am never acting out again. Ever, ever. I need help to save my relationship. That is what I need. So as far as their concern, they're cured from the addictive behavior. They want help with the relationship. And I think that is something that's quite, quite different. Um, but the other piece, of course, that's completely different is developing healthy, positive sexuality. So what does that mean for you? Because it's not abstinence based. So identifying what the problematic behaviors are and probably abstaining from the problematic behavior, whatever it might be. But how do you become a healthy, happy, contented, fulfilled sexual human being that leaves these behaviors in the past. And that's that's a physiological process, but also very much a psychological process as well. And for some, a spiritual process too. So it's it's not about the amount or the frequency. It's it's really about what are you soothing with it. What are you trying to. It's yes, it is. Except for some people that is that they can't remember. They may have started watching very, you know, tons and tons of pornography because, uh, they were bullied, dumped by the partner, partner went off with their best friend, parents or whatever. But that was ten, 15 years ago. Yes. That that. So going into what's going on and really underneath isn't for many people isn't the first place to start. But the problem is because they got so used to for that behavior, um, as a way of managing any kind of stress. They've never really experienced any since. So I've quite often had clients, so I don't have any emotional difficulties. Yes. I'm there. You. Yeah. Oh, I don't know what you talking about. Haven't got anything. And it's often not until six, 12 weeks, 16 weeks whatever into recovery that they have the first argument and realise I've got no way of managing my emotions around this. I've got. So they don't have any. Well, you know the saying the best thing about recovery is you get your feelings back and the worst thing about recovery is you get your feelings back. So it's yeah, sometimes that's a process, but many can't identify it in the early days. How do partners react when they first find out and and how do you work with them? So working with partners um, and the couple relationship is is incredibly difficult. It depends. All partners are different in the same way as obviously everybody with you know, with the addiction is going to be different. Um, it will depend on what what the behaviour is, how long it's been going on. For many, it's not. It's not so much the content of the behavior. But, you know, for somewhere it has been physical infidelity that might be quite different from pornography. Um, but it's the level of deceit. And for many partners, because they had absolutely no idea this was going on. And particularly if you've been married to someone for ten, 15, 20 years, whatever. No idea whatsoever. And if that person is your best friend, your rock, your soulmate, if you've completely misjudged them, what does that say about you? Um, so for many partners, they don't trust themselves anymore. It's not just their partner. It's. Yeah, lots of partners have been in a fairly sexless marriage for a long time, and it's like you're. Or what? You're a sex addict. Why? You don't even like sex. Yeah, because they've withdrawn into the pornography. So for many partners, the the the shock is phenomenal. Um, if it has gone offline, it depends on the amount of deceits, the amount of. If it's been happening in your own house while you've been away, if have been sex workers coming around to the house. Do they blame themselves to. Some partners do. For sure. Some partners will think, you know, if I was, if I was more sexual, if I was more, you know, it wouldn't have happened. But no partner can compete with the novelty of porn and sex work. There's no partner can. But yeah, that initial self-doubt, certainly for many partners. How on earth could I not have known? Not have seen? And if you were struggling, why did you not talk to me? How did you not come to me with this problem? If if there were issues. Um, so yeah, a lot of self-doubt as well. And rage. Absolute rage. How could you do this to me? So for many, there really is quite a it's a trauma response. So probably also less understanding, less accepting with sex and porn addiction compared to other behavioral or. Um, I think partly because it can be hidden for so long. And also probably most partners, certainly with with alcohol and my experience chemical addiction as well, they've probably dabbled themselves as well. Yes, they will and they won't have the same kind of moral judgments. I mean, if you're talking about infidelity, I mean, infidelity is a problem in relationships across the board. Plus you're adding addiction. And this has been going on for years and you've been hiding it from me. And even when it's only porn, it feels like an infidelity for many partners. Because you. Well, you were lying to me. You told me you were working late. You told me you got a headache. You told me whatever I. Yeah. And there's there's all this kind of going on. So it's it's the deceits. That really is the problem rather than anything else. I think often they are less supported as well. I think telling friends that your partners are alcoholic, or you found out about drug addiction or gambling, you'll probably get more support from friends than this. Yes, this is one that. Leave him. Get out now. But you got kids. Don't want to get out. Still love him? Actually, there's a lot of good in this relationship as well. Mhm. What can they do to support their partners? The addict or the partner? The partner to support the addict. Um, first and foremost to support the addict. To look after yourself. Yeah. And um, I think the, the, the partner and the addict need to get into their own recovery for partners. It's recovering from the trauma and the shock of discovery and actually getting their own stability back. for some partners. Actually, you have lied to me for 20 years. I don't want to be in this relationship. It's over. And that. That they have every right to make that decision. Um, for others, um, they might decide they they want to stay. But generally, I'm saying don't make a big decision yet. Give yourself time for this to kind of calm. Right. Um, but I mean, often they would have been gaslit. They would have been lied to for years. They might have found receipts for things. And you all, all these things start coming back that they remember. Uh, and often I remember one partner saying, uh, my history is not my own anymore. He's been doing this for 30 years. Long before. Yeah, long before we even met. Yeah. I've never known who this person is. Mm. Whereas generally with alcohol and drugs, you had a relationship before it became a problem. But in this one, often the behavior predates the relationship. And can relationships survive such a. They can. It depends how much is good in it. Is there any I mean, if you if you didn't have a very good relationship, this really is the last straw. This really is um, so it does depend whether or not there's anything worth saving that's good enough. But generally the process that we go through with, um, couples is we will always do therapeutic disclosure to ensure the partner does know what what what the reality is of what's been going on. And that helps to stop the investigative work, um, and try and put on hold any decisions about the future of the relationship until you've gone through that, begin to understand the whys, what happens, and then that maybe for a partner to decide if they want to have try and rebuild it. It clearly needs the effort from both sides then to. Oh, absolutely. Love that. Yeah. And obviously he's going to be getting into recovery. Yeah. I'm really not just. I've stopped now. You don't need to worry. That's it. It's over. That's. Yeah. That's not good enough. And and can everyone get recovered from sex and porn addiction? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think, you know, like other addictions, like, like, other people will have a vulnerability to it, probably forever. You know, and that's going to depend on how serious it was. But yeah, for many people there may be a vulnerability. There may be certain places that you're going to avoid. You're going to find a little bit trickier than other people where you might be triggered, but absolutely. I had an old client contacted me the other day on something completely separate. You know, another issue wants to have some sessions on. And he's like, I don't even it's so in the past. He said a different version of me, completely different version of me that had that problem. Yeah. Colleague of mine has written he comes from the IT industry originally and has a really nice saying. And you know how, um, when they bring out a new software package? It's the new version. It's the version 2.0. So he always talks to clients about we're working on version 2.0. Bugfixes gone down version 2.0. So when we talk about sex and porn addiction, we always think about that person or the partners, the people around, but the people on the other side of the screen, um, the porn industry, it's a huge industry. What's your what's your understanding of it? And what happens really with these people and how are they dragged into it? I mean, the adult entertainment industry. Yes. Not the porn industry. The adult entertainment industry. Yeah. Um, is is huge and is getting bigger because of the internet, because there's so much, uh, OnlyFans is as a, as a industry. If that's the right word. So self-generated content. Content creators. They're not porn stars. They're content creators. Yes. Um, I mean, yes, it's it's it's huge business. There are undoubtedly, I'm sure, people in the industry where. Well, we know where they've been trafficked. For sure. Where it's a kind of acting out of early abuse behavior. There's kind of a psychological trauma background, but there are many people for whom this is a profession of choice. Um, I mean, that boy, that's a whole nother topic. But, I mean, I think one of the challenges I really have in this field and I, I think in some ways it's harder being in this field as a woman, but I, I don't have a choice in that. I do have a choice in that these days, but I'm not going to make it, um, is that we very easily can get drawn into moral Debates and lose the mental health debates. And one of the areas that I get quite cross about is when young men particularly become demonised because they're watching this porn and they're expecting their partners to behave in this way, and they're doing this. And, you know, our poor girls are expected. And it all becomes kind of against boys and not recognizing that they are victims of this as well. If we're not providing education, then how do they know that's what they are seeing? And one of the things from Lad Bible as well, was the percentage of young people that turned to porn for sex education. And if porn is going to be your primary source of education, then we're going to have problems. Um, but I think when we talk about these issues, it's there are people for whom the porn industry is, um, very much a place to discuss the morality, to discuss the abuse, to discuss that sort of thing. but I try and really keep out of that and keep the focus on those that develop a problem with it. I think the morality is one thing. Um, without going into that, what I've seen with porn stars, porn content creators, um, which came to our facilities also for, for treatment, they have trauma. Yeah. They, we think they are just doing this, like, out of fun. Maybe it started to make money, but they cannot work. They are celebrities and. But the opposite of celebrity, I would say. But we have to remember that the people we say are the people with problems. Yes. Yeah. We don't. Neither of us get people coming to us saying, I do this, that and the other. And it's never been a problem by and we only ever see the people for whom it's become a big problem and it's ugly. So yes. Absolutely. I've worked with a number of content adult content creators who have recognized it's compulsive and it's a problem, and that's been there. They're acting out. They've made money out of it, basically. Um, and. Yeah, absolutely. We start looking at the trauma, but we don't know about all the people for whom it's not a problem. There's certainly plenty out there who say it won't be. It's not an issue. And I you know, we've got no reason to make a judgment on them. That it is. I'm not saying about judgment, but, uh, what I, what I hear is like they cannot walk in the streets anymore freely. You know, maybe an Hollywood star can walk in the streets and people go to them. They can also not walk in the street, but but then, let's say porn content creators, when they walk in the street, they are at, like, always get offers and, and, um, it's for them more difficult to deal with it as well. There is this sex Positivity culture these days and what's your understanding of it? And um, or where are we heading with that. And what do we even mean by that? Um, I mean, I would like I would like to think that we are all sex positive. I mean, whoever's going to go out there and say, actually, I'm very sex negative, we are all sex positive. But there are some very, very different definitions of what sexual positivity means. Um, and for some it is, um, for some people, sex positivity is going to be, um, get married, settle down and have sex with your spouse for the rest of your life. Only on Friday. It's not too much. And with the lights off, yeah, whatever. That's going to be sex positivity. And then, of course, for other people, sex positivity is anything that two consenting adults agree to is absolutely fine. of two or more consenting adults, I should say. And everything is fluid. Everything is, is is fine. Anything and everything is fine. Where do I sit on that? More towards the latter. I do agree anything that consenting adults do is is absolutely fine. But I don't think generally as a society we have enough information to make informed choices. And I think I often use a metaphor of a fruit bowl talking about human sexuality. And there's, you know, like like a wonderful exotic fruit bowl. Unless you try things, you won't know whether you like them or not. So I do think from a sex positive perspective, it's great to have variety. And I think as long as you're not hurting anybody, we have a right to try things. But if we then get oh my goodness, that is gross. No way do I want to do that. Um, then that is also fine. And it's important not to be judged if you only like apples and oranges. You know, if you have a very vanilla fruit, taste, whatever. Um, then that needs to be absolutely fine as well. And if you're someone that wants the whole bowl or only wants kumquats because that's the only fruit that's worth anything, then that is fine. Will sex positivity bring us more babies? Well, interestingly, birth rates dropping. Yeah. Major, major issues. The birthrate dropping. Mhm. Um, the age of, um, losing virginity is getting higher and higher since smartphone and the birth rate is dropping. So, um, yeah, sex positivity will probably not give more babies. Not solve the whole problem. No. What do you do personally to stay in balance? Uh, what do I do to stay in balance? Um. Ah, I'm really quite boring person. Really? Um. I live in a lovely part of the world, So I get to walk in the New Forest. I get to walk in the in the sea, along the seafront. Um, I love being out in nature and I'm very fortunate. And even my back garden overlooks fields and we have deer and foxes in the field. Um, so yeah, I love, love doing that. Um, I have two grandchildren that keep me very, very busy at the moment and are absolutely wonderful. Two daughters that I'm very, very close to in their husbands. So family, family is really important to me and I'm very fortunate that they're very local. So I spend a lot of time with family. Um, and um, eating, I don't cook, my husband's the cook. Uh, eating is important, and I knit. I'm a novelty knitter. No. Yeah. I like knitting all sorts of novelty animals and things like that. So that's my little hobby. Is something unique in these days. Probably nice. So everyone should probably start knitting. Knitting? Absolutely. And I love television. It's such a, I don't know, a boring thing to say, but I. I love my book sets and getting into the latest snow horses or whatever it is. Celebrity tracers. This is straight after celebrity tracers, the first series of doing this. I was glued to that as well. So. And friends, I should mention them first, probably before knitting. But yes, I have some very good friends as well. Of course. Important. Yeah. And if you think about everyone in the world who is suffering or know someone is suffering from sex and porn addiction, what what would you suggest to them to do? If I may go back a step before that, and I think is if you're worried that somebody might be if you notice, if there's someone close to you who's withdrawing, um, if they've become very secretive about their devices and if they're withdrawing a lot and spending a lot less time with you and seem Preoccupied. Um, I think have the conversation about, you know, how are you, what's going on and maybe ask about. You seem to spend a lot of time on your phone these days. Is there? You're getting hooked on something is. But yeah. Big. I'm just starting. Starting the conversation I think is important. And, um, often you're going to get denial. You're going to get. No, not a problem at all. Um, just just saying why you're concerned. You know, I miss you. It feels like you're not really present at the moment. And I'm missing you. And show you care. Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming today. Taking the time. I know you're you're busy. Thank you for the work you're doing. Breaking the taboos and and telling and showing people there are ways out of that, uh, topic. Um, I appreciated our conversation a lot. Thank you for being here. Thank you. I enjoyed it.