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Equine-Assisted Therapy: How Horses Help People Heal | Denise Stergoulis

• Abdullah Boulad

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Can horses help people heal from addiction, ADHD, trauma, and emotional challenges in a deeper, more connected way?


In this episode of Living A Life In Balance, Denise Stergoulis joins Abdullah Boulad, CEO of THE BALANCE Rehab Clinic, for a powerful conversation about equine therapy, addiction recovery, ADHD, mental health, trauma healing, relapse, personal growth, and the emotional connection between humans and horses.


Drawing from her own recovery journey, Denise shares how overcoming addiction led her to become an addiction therapist and equine therapy practitioner. She discusses growing up with undiagnosed ADHD and dyslexia, finding purpose later in life, and the lessons she has learned from helping people navigate recovery, relapse, trauma, and personal growth.


The episode explores how horses can act as powerful emotional mirrors, helping individuals build self-awareness, trust, confidence, and connection. Denise also explains why recovery is about much more than stopping a behavior, it is about addressing the deeper issues underneath and creating lasting change.


Whether you are interested in mental health, addiction recovery, ADHD, personal development, trauma healing, or equine-assisted therapy, this episode offers practical insights, hope, and inspiration.


About Denise:
Denise is an experienced Integrative therapist with specialist recognition in substance addiction. She combines her extensive experience with an incisive, challenging, and empowering style to maximize healing and growth. She combines traditional methods with specialist equine-assisted psychotherapy to develop a highly tailored plan for a wide variety of clients.
 

00:00:00 - From Addiction Recovery To Helping Others Heal
00:01:32 - The Power Of Hope In Recovery And Healing
00:03:11 - Growing Up With Undiagnosed ADHD And Dyslexia
00:04:52 - Leaving London To Find Purpose In Australia
00:07:39 - How An ADHD Diagnosis Changed Everything
00:09:50 - Why Horses Became A Lifelong Source Of Strength
00:12:17 - Building Confidence Through Horses And Purpose
00:14:19 - From Media Career To Motherhood And Identity Loss
00:18:59 - Reinventing Life After Raising Three Children
00:22:06 - From Patient To Addiction Therapist At The Priory
00:23:43 - Going Back To University Later In Life
00:26:41 - What Working In Addiction Recovery Taught Me
00:30:47 - Why Addiction Recovery Is Harder Than Most People Think
00:33:48 - The Habits Behind Long-Term Recovery Success
00:37:27 - How Equine Therapy Helps People Heal Faster
00:43:55 - How Horses Detect Human Emotions And Anxiety
00:47:34 - Why Equine Therapy Helps People Get Unstuck
00:50:27 - Inside An Equine Therapy Session
00:58:04 - Who Can Benefit Most From Horse-Assisted Therapy?
01:03:34 - Finding Purpose, Passion And Balance In Life

Follow Abdullah Boulad: 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/abdullahboulad/    
https://www.instagram.com/abdullahboulad/   

Follow Denise:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/denise-stergoulis-mbacp-accred-714187104/

You can order Abdullah’s books here: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B0BC9S5TCF?ccs_id=c64f2588-7eb1-4592-b4d1-647a0f379b51 

Follow THE BALANCE Rehab Clinic: 
https://www.linkedin.com/company/thebalancerehabclinic/    
https://www.instagram.com/thebalancerehabclinic/    

#AddictionRecovery #EquineTherapy #HorseTherapy #MentalHealth #ADHD #RecoveryJourney #PersonalDevelopment #TraumaRecovery #Neurodiversity #AddictionTreatment #SelfAwareness #HealingJourney #LivingALifeInBalance #Podcast

From Addiction Recovery To Helping Others Heal

SPEAKER_00

I've always wanted to care for people. I'm in recovery myself. The support that I had helped me get better and helped me live the life that I've got today, and I'm always very grateful for that. I wasn't great at school. ADHD was considered naughty. I couldn't sit still in school, I couldn't listen in school. I just gave up. My parents were frustrated because they tried to do their best. My voice to myself was, I'm not very good. I'm not good enough. We had a real connection with horses. Any chance I can be with a horse.

SPEAKER_04

I'm off. What's the goal of doing equivalent system therapy?

SPEAKER_00

A horse will love you unconditionally at a time that maybe you think you can't be loved unconditionally. I've always worried about what people think about me. Another great thing is they go, my gosh, she's a mad lady with horses. I'm right with that time. I actually ended up working at the primary, so I went from one side of the door to the other side of the door. One of the therapists said to me, I think you need to think about training in this. I don't think I can do that. And I did. I focused on addiction. A lot of people think it's going to be an easy journey and it's not.

SPEAKER_04

Did you find your passion and purpose now? Absolutely. Welcome to the Living a Life and Balance podcast. My guest today is Denise Sergoulis, an addiction therapist and equine assisted therapy practitioner. Drawing on her own recovery experience, she combines practical clinical work with her lifelong connection to horses. I hope you will enjoy. Hello.

The Power Of Hope In Recovery And Healing

SPEAKER_04

What motivated you to do what you do today?

SPEAKER_00

I've always wanted to care for people, always wanted to look after people. Um and I think to be able to make change. Um I use the saying which one of my friends laughs at, but I think it's the installation of hope. Because I think we can all lose a bit of hope at some stage. And I'm in recovery myself, and I know the support that I had from people that helped me without judgment helped me get better and helped me live the life that I've got today. And I'm always very grateful for that.

SPEAKER_04

What did your recovery process bring you to? What was the next step in your life?

SPEAKER_00

Uh I always loved horses. Always been, I'm very sad. I even walk around with a very bad taste horse ring. Horses have always been a big part of my life. Um, and I wanted to incorporate that into my life somehow, but didn't really know how. Um, and being in treatment, watching how the therapists work, I thought one of the therapists did actually say to me once, I can see you being in a chair doing this, which gave me again hope. Um, so I started to do some volunteer work. I volunteered at St. Mary's. My children were in that stage of school. I hadn't worked for 20 years, I hadn't been in the workforce because I'd been at home with them. And I needed a career that I could work around them, be there for pickups, still be around for holidays, but kind of try and find myself again because I think I lost it.

SPEAKER_04

But this was not your first education? No. How

Growing Up With Undiagnosed ADHD And Dyslexia

SPEAKER_04

did you start?

SPEAKER_00

No, not very well. Um, I wasn't great at school. Looking back now, I'm of an age where ADHD was considered you're naughty. Um, I couldn't sit still in school, I couldn't listen in school. I was good in the first sort of primary school. I loved it there. Yes. I went to a very small um primary school and we were called we were all looked after. It was in an old house, very sweet teachers, not great with boundaries. So I felt protected and looked after. But then going into what we call secondary school, I just fell behind, behind, behind, and I just could never seem to catch up. Yes. Um, I was always outside the headmistress's office. Um, but a lot of it was now ADHD, being dyslexic. I'm not massively dyslexic, but I really struggle. Um, I mean, thank the Lord for Siri because my spelling is diabolical. The irony was my maiden name was Spella, so I was always a bad speller. Um, and I just struggled at school and I was sort of in a direction where I just gave up. I didn't even I'd go to the exams, but I wouldn't go into the exams because I kind of knew what the result was going to be.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And I think um there wasn't extra support in schools then. You were just kind of written off. My headmistress's parting words were was, I'll never make anything of myself. So that was kind of, I left school at 15, pretty lost, not knowing what to do. Um, my parents sent me off to a finishing school um to learn secretarial skills because in those days, if you could type, my

Leaving London To Find Purpose In Australia

SPEAKER_00

father always said if you could type, you can work anywhere.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I really didn't have a direction. I always wanted to do nursing. That was my real dream that I wanted to be a nurse. Um, but with my education, it didn't quite work out like that. Um so I ended up having a secretarial job in the city of London on a trading floor, which was a very eye-opening experience when you're 16, 17 years old. But I still had that nursing thing in me. Um I then got quite a big bonus in the city, and I was working with a fantastic um guy called Liam who said to me, You shouldn't be in this environment. You need to get out, you're young. I was in an office of uh probably 150 men, not going down a great path, if I'm honest, trying to keep up with the men, drinking like the men, thinking I could be like the men.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and Liam said to me, You need to do something. So in 1988, there was a really big campaign to go to Australia. It was um Paul Hogan saying, Come and say g'day. And I'd got this bonus, and Liam said, Go. So he actually, behind my back, went to the Australian Embassy, got all the forms, and then said, Right, we're filling these out. If you get the application approved, you've got to go. So that was the start of going somewhere new to try and redefine myself, I think. Because then Australia, you know, you had to book a call home. There was no mobile phones, there was no FaceTime. I used to stand in a telephone box at two o'clock in the morning, waiting to speak to my parents. Um, and that was kind of where I was trying to find myself. As naff as that sounds, I did go away trying to work out what I wanted. Um ended up working on an Australian sheep farm on a horse from four o'clock in the morning until six o'clock at night, which I loved.

SPEAKER_04

And there were also horses?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I so literally I was what they call a rouse about. So I would be around helping with the sheep and on a horse all day. So it was, I was actually, it was Christmas Eve, and I was actually in Sydney really lonely, thinking I should go home. And I met this guy who's who's unfortunately his um mother had just died, and he said, How do you feel about you know, get I love? You want to come up to a sheep farm? And I was like, Yeah, okay then. Um so ended up on a sheep farm on Christmas Day on the back of a horse on Christmas Day.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

And I stayed there for five months and learned how to ride like an Australian, which isn't as pretty as English girls.

How An ADHD Diagnosis Changed Everything

SPEAKER_04

When I think about your time at school and now you're defining it as ADHD and dyslexia, how did you realize you have this uh naming it? Uh was it named at that time?

SPEAKER_00

No, no, no, no, no, no. It was actually when I went to treatment. Um, and again, can't sit still, um, had an assessment and that was brought up and I didn't even know what it stood for. It was like AD WAP. Yeah um, so sort of to get a label on it was like, okay, that it that actually explains a lot. That explains why I struggle to sit still, that explains why I am a certain way. Um and I my son also has ADHD. It's different for him now because he could go to a school that helped him, that supported him. There's medication. I mean, I think there was only probably Ritalin in in my day, and that wasn't even discussed.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So it was just a case of just always feeling a bit different and not in a great way.

SPEAKER_04

Did you get any support uh or treatment for for both of them?

SPEAKER_00

I'm very organized. I'm very when I'm on a project, when I'm on something, I'm absolutely 100% on it. I learn, but I learn at my own pace. So I suppose because I didn't know that I had something, I I just used to think, oh, I'm not very good at spelling, I'm not very good at that. So I my my sort of my voice to myself was I'm not very good. I'm not good enough. Um so I've channeled it in different areas. Um, I don't really know how. I mean, I there was a possibility of medication, but being in recovery, yeah, a stimulant wouldn't, I don't think, be a good idea. And I don't think I need any medication to be honest. You know, I've managed for all my life without it, and I see it as part of my part of my personality, good or bad.

SPEAKER_04

Part of your personality today um you can manage with what what the outcome is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, hopefully as much as we all can. Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_04

How how when was the first time you got uh in contact with the horses?

SPEAKER_00

My granddad. My granddad, I like a bit too. My granddad loved horses. Um and he wouldn't go out for dinner, he didn't like going out. He liked it for him, he lived down near the um sea. So going to see him was about going for a walk, and and we always used to find a horse. He never rode a horse. I was speaking to my mother yesterday, he never actually got on a horse. But I have so many pictures of him wherever he would be, he would find a horse with his pipe and he'd stand. Oh, hello, old boy. So we had a real connection together. He was, you know, one of the loves of my life. Um, and we had a real connection with horses. So it then went to horse riding lessons, horse riding on a Saturday. Any chance I could be with a horse, I'm off. I still do it now. I mean, we were on holiday in the summer, and there was a horse that was very distressed in the field, and I pulled the car over and uh got out of the car, and my adult children were like, What's she doing? And I went over and spoke to the horse. So I can't help myself. I've I'm just I'm I'm probably addicted to horses, if I'm honest. It's a bad thing.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, probably everyone has an addiction.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's my I they just I I think they are my spirit animal, they're my soul animal.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Um what did they give to you at that age?

SPEAKER_00

I think they gave me a special time with my granddad. That was our special time, and I think they just gave me, I was really good at it. I was eight, I got on a horse and I was good at it. And for the first time for a long time, someone was like, Oh, she's natural. And I thought, natural, what what does that mean? And not even we talk about it um at equine therapy. It's you horsey people are different people. Um it's just the horse is just another extension of us. It's a bit like your children. I said, I mean, my I speak to the horses as if I speak to my children. I arrive at work and I'm whoa, hello darling, and they will put their heads out. So I think they gave me something that I was good at and something that felt quite natural and something that calmed me, if I'm honest. You know, even now I'll go to work a bit early. If I'm having a bit of a stressful time, I will go and just hang around my horses for the first half hour before the day starts.

SPEAKER_04

What what did they give you what you didn't get from your friends or family, probably?

SPEAKER_00

I think they didn't judge me. No, they don't judge.

SPEAKER_04

They don't judge, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I don't think I was judged by my family, but I think I was quite a lot from my family. But it was, you know, that was my saying, well, she's a lot, she's and my parents were frustrated because they tried to do their best, but their best just didn't fit with the way I was as a child. But again, they didn't really, you know, I think there's a lovely saying, you know, it was their first time on the planet too. So it was more the fact that there was no judgment. I could be a bit loop the loop, my granddad used to call me. I could be a bit crazy, and a horse doesn't care about that.

SPEAKER_04

And you found something probably you which feeded also your self-esteem. Yeah. You're good at.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

How important is it for for a child or a young adult to to have something they can grab on to and and and be good at?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's really important to have a purpose and a focus. Um I mean the nursing was my focus. That was my absolute, that's what I wanted to do. I will always, that will be my on my deathbed, my regret that I didn't do it, because I actually got into nursing in Australia um I as a mature student. And I started and within the first month, I couldn't keep up. I couldn't keep up with the study, I couldn't keep up with the, you know, I'd look at the the words of the medication. I mean, I still to this day um struggle with things like that. Um, so I think that was my purpose. That was something I really, really wanted to do, but I I realized I was very out of my depth. And I've always, that's the biggest regret of my life. Um so it was a case of I think it's important to have a purpose. But then I think once I stopped nursing, I came back to um England, and my now husband of a long time followed me. And I got into media and I got into radio and fashion. So I loved that.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So radio was great because you can be a bit in that world. It's very that was where my I think my ADHD was really good because we used to do road shows and we'd be up at four o'clock in the morning, and I'd have to we do I worked on the uh New Orleans Jazz Festival, which was fantastic, you know, sitting in a room with what I call real legends.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so I could keep going when everyone else was like, oh god, I'm tired. I'd be like, come on, you know. So I think that was sort of I focused it into radio and then I worked at national magazines, but I still missed there, was a big chunk still missing. I tried to forge my way into these places, yeah, but a big chunk was still missing, definitely.

SPEAKER_04

And then later on, your career, how how did it go?

SPEAKER_00

I um had children, so I've got three children who are 27, 24, and 19.

SPEAKER_04

At what age did you get them?

SPEAKER_00

So I had my first child at 30 and then 33 and then 39.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I was at home for a long time. And I think being at home, I love my children, I love being a mum, but it is quite lonely that first stage. I had my parents around to help, but I think you you do lose your identity, you become someone's mum. Yes, you're not, you know, nobody says, Oh, it's Denise, it's oh it's Fleur's mum, it's Andre's mum, it's Aiden's mum. You're not, you lose that bit. And I think I feel very lucky that I could be at home with them, but I felt myself drift away. I I didn't know who I was, and and again, it brought up that thing at school of I didn't fit in. I felt very, very lost. I felt intimidated by the school mums because a lot of them had been to university, they had careers, um, and I felt very less than.

SPEAKER_04

I see. Okay. The the change from being in business and working and traveling to becoming a mom. Was that easy for you to to manage?

SPEAKER_00

It was because I enjoyed being with the children. I loved, I loved the whole process of being a mum. But um it becomes busy in a different way and it becomes competitive in a different way, I feel. It becomes about who can make the best cupcake, it becomes who's in the best Halloween outfit, even, you know, children's birthday parties, the the party bag is pressure. Yes, you know, it really is. It's not just, you know, my day, you got a piece of cake and you walked off and made a mess with the piece. You know, this is it becomes very competitive, even down to, if I'm honest, things like weight, what you look like, arriving on the school gates. I mean, my first day dropping my daughter off, I think I changed five times to go and pick her up because I would I felt very um awkward. Thought, how am I gonna fit in? Where am I gonna fit in? And I never really did, I don't think, if I'm honest.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. During that time where you were at home, you continued riding horses and being with horses.

SPEAKER_00

I didn't ride them because I lost a lot of my confidence. It took me, took me a while to get back on a horse, if I'm honest.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

I think after having three children and three cesareans, I thought I might fall apart on the horse if I went too fast. And also I think you that's the other thing. I think your confidence, I don't ride the, I mean, when I was riding in Australia, I was terrible. I'd get on a horse, I didn't wear a helmet, you know, I would just not worry at all. But I think once you become a mum, it's like if I fall off and break my leg, who's gonna take the kids to school? Who's gonna so I do I do ride a bit more like the queen than I used to? It's a very elegant. But it's it is it is different. It's a bit, you know, it's a bit like any sports, a bit like skiing. I don't ski like I used to when I was 18.

SPEAKER_04

But being a mom means you are used. Um there are people, human beings, uh they need you. Yes, they show you they need you at some point. They stop showing you maybe they need you, they want to be more independent. Uh, it's also how was this transition then later on into their adulthoods?

SPEAKER_00

I always think with motherhood, it's and it's it's a saying that lots of people have heard, and you know, you the difficulty is you raise the loves of your life to leave you. That's literally it's true. You raise the loves of your life, and and and the expectation is you know, I've got to let you go. My job is done if they can go, and if they can, you know, if they're good people, if they thrive, if they're kind, if they're considerate, if they're, you know, I I like to think of somebody saying, Yes, a friend of mine, my son's been working at an exhibition centre, and a friend of mine saw him and said, He's a good boy, he's a lovely boy. Okay, he's 19 and huge, but you know, it was a boy, he was polite, he's he's kind. My middle son is incredibly kind, he's come home from school with no coat. And I was like, Where's your coat? He said, Oh, there was a guy under the bridge and he didn't have his coat. So I gave him my coat.

SPEAKER_04

That's sweet.

SPEAKER_00

And my daughter is, you know, she's incredibly she's so sweet with children. You know, they're good, they I know they're mine, but they're good human beings.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So when they started to leave, my daughter um lives abroad now. That was like, oh, you know, and you try and put the brave face on. But again, I I was what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? And typical me, I've got to prepare before before something happens. And you know, I did think I can't imagine what I'm gonna do with my life because again, with the school mums, you know, being in recovery, a lot of women drink at lunchtime. Yeah, the five o'clock, you know, gin o'clock, all that kind of stuff. And and that was another place that I didn't fit in. I wasn't invited to a lot of things because alcohol was involved. Yes, and I didn't fit in there. So I was really mindful. So that's why I ended up volunteering at St. Mary's. Um, so I can you explain St.

SPEAKER_04

Mary's is St.

SPEAKER_00

Mary's is a very large hospital in London. Yes. Um, it's where the royal family have their babies. I was actually there when uh Princess Charlotte was born. Keep all that under wrap. So that was like very exciting knowing what was going on. Yeah, it was it was amazing. Um, so I did a lot of charity work there raising money for my my um third son, Aidan, was premature, so he was in hospital for a long time. So I wanted to give back.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So I helped work on a um a fundraising called the More Smiles Appeal and raised quite a lot of money there. So it was good because it was volunteering, so I could still be there to pick up the kids. I didn't have to go in. They used to laugh because I treated it like I was being paid, but I wasn't. Um, so that sort of gave me a bit of going back to work.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And being in that environment. Yeah. And a little bit of my I'm in a hospital. It's the closest at the moment I'm gonna get to being a nurse. So I really, I really enjoyed that. So that was the kind of the and what else can I do now?

SPEAKER_04

That started to give you another purpose. Yes. So far, this time, period.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And what led you then later on?

SPEAKER_00

Then I um I was um a patient at the priory in Roehampton. And um I used to train um there after I'd left, and I bumped into one of the managers in the car park who said to me, Would you like to do some peer support work? And I thought, what's that? And then I was reminded that I had a fantastic peer support worker when I was in there. So basically I said yes, because again, it was volunteering, I didn't have to stick within hours. So it was just going in, in some ways, proving to people that if you want to get well, you can and giving them a hope, a bit of hope. Um, especially I think I think relating to alcoholic women, it's very difficult to start that process. There's a a lot, I mean, there's a lot of shame around addiction in general, but I think with women, um especially having children, it it does, there's another, it's not the label that anybody wants, but you know, that was I was that's I will always struggle with that. Um and being able to sort of speak to to women in treatment um really gave me a sense of purpose. And then one of the therapists said to me, I think you need to think about training in this. Um, which I was I don't know, I don't think I can do that. And I did. So I came late in life to education. The irony was that the day that my daughter started university, I started my studies. So we used to actually revise together. We'd be sitting there and you know, she'd be helping me, and I obviously couldn't help her, but you know, it was so we had this real thing and we actually graduated.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, but you had something in common that you can share.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, she taught me. I mean, I had no idea about essays and word counts, and I was like, it doesn't matter about the word count, it shows you no more. And she's like, Mom, you just stick to a word count, you can't, and Harvard. Um, what's the thing at the end that you had to do Harvard, the quotes at the end? I didn't know any of that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so to have her go, no mum, you use eyesight, so jumping in and you know, all that kind of stuff. So it was really incredible to sort of go on that journey alongside her. And I loved it. I threw myself into it. I I got the reputation of being a bit of the the uh the teacher's favorite. I did everything on time. I don't my my files and everything were all because it was my chance to go right. I know, I know why I struggle, I'll take my time, but I can manage this. And I threw myself into it.

SPEAKER_04

But that shows it's never too late.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely to change, to get as long as you know what your purpose is or what uh what what will make you happy and give you purpose.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there is that bit of even when I was starting the nursing, I was 23. I thought I was so old. You know, everyone else was 19, and I kept thinking, Oh, I'm so old, like they they're much younger than I am, and you know, they finished school, and you know, so that was that was a real I'm old. And I remember going into college thinking, oh god, it's gonna be a nightmare, I'm not gonna be able to do this. And but no, I think it's it it and it kind of reignited my brain. You know, it wasn't just oh what's you know, have we got gym kit today or pack lunches, or it was like, right, I can really start to think about things, and with a lot of the studying, the case is yourself, yes, because to study to be a therapist, you kind of when you're sitting opposite someone, you have to be a blank sheet of paper, so you have to kind of process your own stuff. So sort of doing human development essays, and I'm typing there thinking, oh my god, I'd forgotten about that, you know, and relating to different modalities. It was really good therapy for me as well um to identify issues that I hadn't really thought about before.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So no, I loved it, and I still love learning now. I've just finished a trauma course last week. So I still thank you. So I'm trauma informed. Um, but I, you know, I I think it's I think it's great for your brain.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, to keep on learning.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And push your boundaries, push yourself out of your safety net, take a bit of a gamble.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. What uh what type of clients have you been then working uh with after your training?

SPEAKER_00

So I focused on addiction. Um I actually ended up working at the priory, so I went from one side of the door to the other side of the door. Yeah um, so for me that that really did tick box tick the boxes. I loved when patients came in, you know, and they were, I probably did go the extra mile and go and sit in their rooms. I wanted to come from a caring aspect as well. Um, so I worked on the addictions unit there um for six years, which I loved. Um I loved group work. Um and you know, you have you're you have someone for 28 days and you know them inside out by the time they leave. You know, I think it's a real privilege. Um, and I think sometimes when you've walked that path, you there's a lot of questions you don't need to ask because you understand that path. Yes. Um, I always used to find it quite humorous because the patients never used to work out that I was in recovery. And sometimes when I'd leave, they'd say, I'll bet you go home and have a large glass of Chardonnay, and I'd walk away with a bit of a smile. Um, because it is very well known in this industry that a lot of people are in recovery.

SPEAKER_04

How important was it for you to be yourself in recovery, have the understanding of, let's say, an addict and and working with uh with recovery.

SPEAKER_00

I think it it for me, I'm passionate about it because I've walked the walk and I know how difficult it can be, and I know how difficult it, you know, everybody's just stop, stop drinking. What are you doing? Yes, you know, to uh to know that it's not just about that and it's other issues. So I I thought about not working in addiction, but I loved group. I loved, I and I love addicts, I think they're fascinating people. You never meet a dull addict ever.

SPEAKER_04

What's so fascinating about them?

SPEAKER_00

I just think they're they're characters, they've they've you know, a lot of a lot of people have had very difficult lives and very interesting lives, and you know, you you could work with someone that from all different walks of life. And I think for me that was that that's the great thing about it. It doesn't matter who you are, yes, what you are, everybody can be affected by it. So, you know, I just I loved I loved being in the hospital and I loved trying to help people. Did you used to find it funny that they never worked me out? But that's um I've now gone into private practice, and a couple of my patients have have asked me, they they they like, do you um so I always give them three questions and then they're not allowed to ask after that because it just keeps that boundary because therapy is not about me, it's about them. Yes, and I think sometimes there's that trust, they've trusted me with everything, all their issues and material. I think for me just to trust them with that. And I think sometimes it can't, it's you know, when I disclose it's who am I doing it for, me, I try not to, I'm doing it for them. And if they ask, I'm not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_04

And everyone was accepting treatment or was it difficult to connect, yes.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, a lot of people, nobody wants to end up in those rooms. I think a lot of people are sent there. I think people uh family members don't know what to do. They go there. I think with addiction, a lot of people think that after 28 days you're cured. Um, most people you go into hospital, you have an operation, you get some medication, you leave and touch wood, you're okay. But you know, I would say I could heal someone if I chop their head off. But it doesn't quite work like that. But it is, you know, it is a disease of the mind, of the brain. Yeah, so it's not as easy. So I think there's a there's a lot of people that go in there with an expectation of thinking, right, I'm you know, I'll come here for 28 days and I'll leave and I'll be fine.

SPEAKER_04

And I'm done.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm done. You know, when people would say, you know, I I I was an alcoholic, it's like you want to maybe look at that and go, I am, and then you will be, and that's just part of your life, the story.

SPEAKER_04

What's the biggest struggles you have seen there uh treating patients?

SPEAKER_00

I think denial, I think the effects on family um and people are not well, and I also think you know, addiction comes with health issues, and unfortunately, death which is um very difficult to deal with sometimes because people you know, clients leave and are full of hope, full of and unfortunately the deaths are not anything like sometimes they're very interesting stories. They're they fell down the stairs, you know, they've they've had issues with livers, and so that that's I still find that hard.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so but these deaths happened later on when they finished the program, yeah, kind of part of a relapse.

SPEAKER_00

A relapse, a relapse. You know, I think people don't get that the relapse is when you relapse it it you don't just can start off with one or two glasses, you you go back into a relapse wherever you started. So if you uh it's wherever you ended, so you if you ended on a bottle of vodka, you're back in on a bottle of vodka, and then I think it just catches up with people. Um but it's where it's quite a small community, you do hear about the deaths, which is really sad. Um, yeah, yeah, consequence unfortunately.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely, it's uh yeah, it's always sad being working with someone then hearing they didn't make it. Um but if you compare this percentage-wise with all the patients you have been working with, can you tell like how many make it are successful with their treatment and and which ones uh falling back to relapse?

SPEAKER_00

It's not great numbers. Um each year the statistics change, um, but it's it's it's not great, if I'm honest.

SPEAKER_04

Why? Why not?

SPEAKER_00

I think um I think a lot of people think it's gonna be an easy journey and it's not because you know it is it is a day-to-day journey. Yeah, and I think a lot of people think, you know, unfortunately, a lot of relapse is the first year. People get to a year and think, yeah, I've done a year, I'll have a glass of wine. And then, you know, it it catches up with them again, and they get into that pattern. And then I think a lot of time with relapse, people are embarrassed to say, it doesn't, I haven't, it hasn't worked, I haven't done it. You know, there is something about keeping it very simple, you know, whether you find the fellowship useful, therapy, self-care, it's all that stuff to keep you in that place that you don't want to reach, that it doesn't become that extra part of your life again that comes in. But you know, it it's not it's not an easy thing to to get over. And I think a lot of people don't understand that.

SPEAKER_04

What would be the lessons learned from the successful cases you have seen? What have they been doing? What have they been following for how long?

SPEAKER_00

I think a lot of them are they they keep it simple. They literally keep it simple. They'll start off with the fellowship, um therapy, continuing to talk about their issues, having support, having, you know, if they're struggling to be able to pick up the phone and say, oh my god, you know, I'm standing outside a pub. Yes, I'm finding it difficult, building networks, um, and and wanting to stop, if I'm honest. Because a lot of time in addiction, people think they want to stop, but don't know how to. And then it once I think the lying starts and they're getting back into the old behavior, it's very hard to then go, actually, do you know what? I'm sorry, but I've messed up again.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Because I think also families become confident, everybody, you know, six months in, life is looking better, life is looking, but a lot of the time, you know, patients are still struggling, but they don't know where to put it. Because the minute if you say to anyone, you know, God, I feel like a drink, family members are panicking. Um, and you know, with my clients, I always say it's really important to be honest. Say if you're struggling, you don't have to pretend, you know, if you're sitting there going, no, fine, it's not going to end well. So it's more about using tools that, you know, hopefully I help them with. Um, and I think continuing therapy is really important to still have a safe space to be able to talk about when things are difficult.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And also, you know, I always think addiction is the top of the issue. It's all the stuff underneath that luckily enough I get to work with with my clients is you know, the depression, the anxiety, the reason it started, the neurodiversity. You know, a lot of people now it's quite automatic for people to be tested for neurodiversity. And it's like, well, should we test for ADHD or should we, you know, it's that's now our language.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

You know, um, so I think a lot of them come out and they they come out sometimes they come out with more diagnosis than when they walked in. But that's just also I when clients say, Well, I've now been, I've now got, I'm like, well, that's that's another thing to go, okay. You've got this, yeah, that explains blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_04

Are diagnoses important in that case?

SPEAKER_00

I think so. Yeah, I think so. Um, I think it explains a lot. I had um a lovely patient, she's actually um just she discharged me, which was fantastic. I was very again, you know, to let her go. Um, and she did incredibly well. And she she had a lot of diagnosis that she kind of knew, but it helped her because then she could go into work and say, I'm autistic, I need support here. And in luckily enough, in the environment that we're in, they gave her a desk. She had a room where she could go off on her own if she was overwhelmed. She had noise cancelling earphones, she had a chair that she could wobble around on, you know, and it for her, she always just said, you know, it it just made it made sense. It was like, okay, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I think it does help.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Quite a journey. We know that for someone with addiction and to work on the underlying issues is not easy, and it has to involve probably also the families and the whole uh dynamic around that. Were horses involved during that time?

SPEAKER_00

So when I was doing my um uh placement at the priory, um I went to Ekwine and that was it. I was in love. And the minute I walked in there and sort of saw saw Equine in action. Um, so my job became taking the patience, which was the highlight of my week because nobody wanted to ever go out and stand out in the cold. That's the one thing with Equine, the weather doesn't matter. Yes, we're out there, you know, snow, rain, wind. Um and the magic of Equine is I think again, you've got this beautiful creature who doesn't judge. So the minute you're in the arena, you haven't got someone looking thinking, done what? You know, horses are, I always think horses are they are well, they are, I think, a mirror to our world. So a horse's heartbeat will pick up our heartbeat. So if someone's anxious, if someone's nervous, they can sense it. And I think with working with addiction, when you go in with groups, it's always really interesting because as soon as the the I I work with some hospitals, and when the clients arrive, you know, they're all, what is this? A lot of them don't want to do it. Yes. What's this, you know, mad, mad sort of kind of modality of therapy with a bloody horse? A lot of people are like, Oh, I don't like horses, it's cold. And but the the horse, just sort of even this the first connection with the horse with no words can activate so much in people. So sessions start off, we look at care, connection, movement, and direction. So immediately you're talking about care because it's safety, which in addiction can go out the window. So it raises that issue of how do you keep yourself safe? And it's amazing how most clients will say, Well, you don't stand behind a horse. That's their first thing. Don't and it's like everyone, somewhere we were all taught never to stand behind a horse. Um, but then it sort of opens up a whole discussion of why why shouldn't you stand behind a horse? Because they're kicky. How do you know they're gonna kick you? So within seconds, I've got a connection with these clients that don't know me. It's not like sitting in a group session where you're sort of just looking around waiting for group to start. Um and it really does a group bonds, I think, pretty quickly because you sometimes have someone, oh, I love horses, I've loved horses all my life, and then you've got someone else in the group. I hate them, I don't like them, I don't want to be here. So they've already they start to bond as a group. So um the beginning of sessions, we ask clients to go and introduce themselves, which I always it's one of my favorite parts because after doing a safety briefing briefing, we go up into the school, we don't give them the the names of the horses because we don't want to transfer. If a granddad's called Fred, we don't want to bring Fred in without the session. So it's quite interesting to watch. Also, there's no chairs, and I say, you know, you're in group therapy now, but people can move. It's interesting to watch people's movements, they're not sitting trying to their check-in is different. How do you feel? Wow, it's cold, it's you know, they're outside, it's a completely different place. Um, and even by just going up to greet the horse, if the horse walks away, it's an immediate it doesn't like me. Doesn't like me. So you've got a a process of why doesn't why doesn't it's a horse? What's why doesn't he like you? Nobody likes me. I didn't have friends at school and it it it moves therapy so quickly that in one group I can leave after with with clients that you know I probably have seen for the first time, I can leave a group, I sit and do my notes afterwards, and I can leave a group that there's no way one normal group therapy session, I would get that because the horse is the four-legged therapist that he can pick up. And you know, I just think for me it's it's a different way. It's it's not shaming, it's not well, why did you do that? You know, the horse doesn't care. He don't care, he doesn't hold on to anything. Um, and I think it's it's just it's just a beautiful space of therapy. That even if you don't like a horse, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, horses are beautiful, and also their the size probably is what impresses us as well. Yeah, I mean, you could you couldn't maybe do the same with a mouse.

SPEAKER_00

No, no.

SPEAKER_04

So what's so special about horses?

SPEAKER_00

I think you know, they've they've been therapists for years and years and years without even knowing it. I think with a horse, as you said, you know, sometimes we've got all different horses that do therapy. Not all of our horses do therapy, um, but the ones that do, you know, we have a very big white one and he's big, you know, and he but he brings in, okay, here we are. And I think sometimes with men to have that kind of something that's bigger than them is really important. We have another horse, and you know, he bless him, he gets a bit of eczema, so he needs to be a bit oily so he can he feels differently. So I I think with the horses, they pick up our heartbeat. Also, horses are herd animals, they don't like being on their own.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And they sort of display how it's difficult to be on your own. And in addiction, there is a lot of being on your own. So it builds up sort of that trust, and a horse will love you unconditionally at a time that maybe you think you can't be loved unconditionally. So I think it's just their spirit, I think it's just the way that they they see into our souls. I don't, you know, there's a lot of studies around it, there's all that kind of stuff, but I think each each day, each group I walk out of, I've done it for a long time. I've never walked out and thought, oh, what was that?

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

There's always something in each group.

SPEAKER_04

How do horses feel us or Mirror our heartbeat, as you mentioned. How can they do that?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's just the way that they are. I think someone up there programmed them. But I think as well, you know, they're fight or flight animals, they they are on constant alert. So their their senses are magnified. That's probably why a mouse wouldn't mouse segwine therapy. I don't think that's going to catch on, but map mouse therapy. But they're, you know, their senses they're constantly. It may look like a horse is grazing in the field, but he's not. He's looking around, he's checking, he's finding out where his other horses are. We if we do a session, we never leave a horse on their own. We have horses in the fields, and you can hear them talking to each other. So horses, you know, they pick up danger, they pick up when things are safe, they pick up, so it's their energy, you know, and I think that's that's the other impressive thing with them is they, you know, just having a horse that suddenly will just stand by the side of you as if to say, and that's what they do. They, you know, with the groups, they become part of the herd, which for a group of people that haven't felt very connected, you've immediately got a connection, yes, which is incredible.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I think it's just there's something very special about them.

SPEAKER_04

Is every horse suitable to be used in equine therapy?

SPEAKER_00

No. I think it's a bit like therapists. You can get good horses, good equine um horses and bad ones. And it's not that they're bad, it's just some of them aren't set for it. They're not, you know, you can have horses, you know, horses do bite. That's what they can do. But when they bite, they're only connecting with you had this experience. They nibble sometimes. But you know, it's probably because I'm pushing my boundaries, you know, trying to kiss them and whatever. Um, but I think it's, you know, some horses that it is like a good therapist, bad therapists. Yes, some of them are built for it. We had two shire horses that were huge, that were the most beautiful equine therapy horses. But to see them, you'd probably think, well, there's no way they could be in a field, but they were brilliant. We've we've got, you know, one of my favorite horses. He is my favorite horse, but he would not be very good for equine because he's very, he hasn't got any boundaries. So that's why we get on. I've got no boundaries with him, and he's got no boundaries. I think he's got a bit of ADHD. But I think um, I think it is the horses that they're the horses that we use for equine are very, I call them solid. They're solid horses, and they can hold their own. Because also they're in a group of people that you know, okay, what's going on here?

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So it's it's it's quite interesting the horses that we use.

SPEAKER_04

Are they trained or has this to be natural? It's natural coming from them.

SPEAKER_00

So Andreas, um, who is the founder of Operators and Centaur, he is the one that that's aware of who's a good therapy horse, who would be, because there's all different horses there. Um, but he picks the horses. He is an absolute genius horseman.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so it's about selection and not uh breeding. You can't train them. A good equine therapy horse.

SPEAKER_00

You can't train them. You can't, and and there would it wouldn't be authentic if you trained them. You know, it's a bit like again, like a therapist, if you have a therapist that sits and says, Oh, how do you feel? Yeah, you know, or if you've got a therapist that's more engaged and and uses different techniques, and you know, that's what you get out of some of these other horses.

SPEAKER_04

What's the goal by doing equine as is a therapy?

SPEAKER_00

I think with equine, it's a very good way to unstick a patient. Patients get stuck, and that's another part of the you've got the safety briefing side of it, you've got the connection and movement. And the movement, a lot of people will be two years sober, everything's kind of gone back to normal, but they're stuck, but they don't know what they're stuck in. So, with unlike a private practice where I've worked with patients for years, with Equine, we normally do six sessions, yes, because it can uns it literally can unstick someone, because it can also bring up where the horse will pick up what's going on for them that they might not even know. So I've worked very closely with one of my private patients, and you know, he's he went through a stage of sort of not being quite sure about certain things. We did six sessions of equine, which opened up a new part of him. So I th I feel that horses open up, can open up that different part that sometimes we we can't see, even just leaning on a horse and breathing with a horse. And it's very funny with him because he's immaculate. And this horse, the one one of the ones I use, that he's bad. It was all oily and a bit smelly and a bit, you know. And it was amazing to watch this person who normally would have been like, Do you have some gloves? really get in there and just wanted to look after him. Yes. Um, so I think it's very good for it's very good for denial. It's very good for I think a lot of people aren't aware of themselves. Whereas a horse with its boundaries will show you boundaries. That's one of my favorite things with them. If you're overstepping a boundary, they know we have one horse and he's unbelievable. He's you do not mess with his boundaries. He knows exactly what to do. And that in a group can then, or even with the one-to-one, brings up a whole thing. Well, where are your boundaries? He's showing you his boundaries, where are yours?

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So it's it it really helps with it's difficult because it's you can't sit, you know, in the beginning of a session or group, if you're doing group therapy with another therapist, you you talk about it, you know. One thing I love about Equine is you literally fly by the seat of your pants because you have no idea what the group's gonna bring, because you have no idea what the he's not gonna walk in and go, I'm in a great mood today, let's have a bit of fun, or I'm not feeling so it is it's very in the moment and it's very authentic. And I think that's what I really like about it.

SPEAKER_04

And and how does a let's say you mentioned group, but you mentioned also individual? Um, is this usually in a group, or can it also be done individually?

SPEAKER_00

No, it works really well individually. It's good for both.

SPEAKER_04

I understand it's not being on the horse, it's just being around the horse and doing some training uh exercises or observation uh as well. So, what uh what type of exercises or activities do you do?

SPEAKER_00

So it depends on the group. So, again, uh there's no agenda when you go in. We do have certain um your words activities that we do, but it's not really an activity, it's more of building up relationship with the horse. So, depending on where the group is, um we'll look at movement. We'll look at so you'd come into a session if you were in a group or let's do a group example. Come into a session as a group, the group says hello to the horse, and I encourage them to watch their peers.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Because sometimes a peer will go up, the horse will walk away, peer will walk back like that. The peers are what the other peers are watching, and the horses actually turn around and just say, Oh, where did you go? I was just gonna go and have a so it's really good for feedback as well. It opens up a real line of communications with the patients.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Then I ask them to go and say hello as a group. That's a really interesting one because that's where safety comes in. Because sometimes they're and I do in at the beginning of the session say I might shout at you, but it's coming from a good place of care because you all get patients that will stand right in front of the horse. Yeah, and if the horse wants to go, so that's a really good, you've you've got an automatic process of where's your safety? Who are you looking after? Why do you why are you putting yourself in that situation between a gate, you and a horse? In a group therapy session, sitting around in the chairs, I couldn't say, well, where are you safety? What's your risk? What are you like with risk? But there you've automatically got it.

SPEAKER_04

It's it's a bit of a mirroring a bit of a life's uh life's life scenarios, uh kind of.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So it's it's interesting watching a group walk towards the horse to see if somebody takes over to find out. I can normally find out who the more vocal person in the group is because you'll hear someone say, Well, hold on, how should we do this? Or you'll just get a group that'll all charge towards the horse, and I'm like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on a minute, think about this. You're surrounding this, you know, beautiful, huge creature that if he decides to go, even I can't stop him.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Um, that also kind of always opens up a sort of a process of asking for help. Because if you do feel unsafe, you can ask me. You know, so that that sort of opens up a line of communication. Um, and then depending on where the group is, we we can look at obstacles. It depends what what the the kind of I try and listen for the theme of the group, where they are as a group. Um so we look at obstacles, we look as working at as a team, we look at movement. Um, my favorite one that I do is secrets, because I think sometimes going into treatment, then that whole experience of sitting down, you know, it's a big ass. 28 days, sit opposite me and tell me all your deepest, darkest secrets, stuff that you don't want anyone to know. So there's something about telling the horse because you know it's not going to tell me afterwards, but it vocalizes sometimes things with step one, powerless and unmanageability, difficult behaviors. In saying it to the horse, it it's a whole process of the horse could tolerate me, the call, the horse could accept me. Yes. Um, so if we with obstacles, I'll ask the group to build an obstacle so they can either do had a the most amazing one the other day. It was literally like Mission Impossible, you know, when Tom Cruise does the dance with all the So they do it themselves. Yep, with our with all our um horse jumping equipment. Yeah, so there's no special equipment. Um and they built this most amazing, like um, it was an obstacle and it was literally like swirling backwards and forwards. And then I we introduced the horse into the obstacle, which is always amazing because it's like the horses will either come in and knock it all down as if to say, What are you doing? Um, that also leads a process of you know, where are you? Where are you stuck? And it really brings the group together because the obstacle is also a good process to talk about relapse because I always think it's important to start the process of talking about relapse.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Not that yes, you're here and you're cured.

SPEAKER_04

So you you always try to go in with a theme with a topic into a session.

SPEAKER_00

Um I I don't. I try and pick it up from where the from where they are. They where they are. Um if we've got a group that are doing four sessions in a row, then we will look at safety, connection, movement, and direction, and we'll do it in that order.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Um, but if I've got a group coming in um and I'm not sure, I'll I, you know, they lead me. The horse leads me. I'll pick up from the horse where I think I can go with it.

SPEAKER_04

To what does it come down? What the participants take with them back home?

SPEAKER_00

I think it opens up vulnerability. I think it opens up memories. A lot of people have a memory around a horse, even if they've not been with a horse. There was um a patient the other week, and he's started to talk about his grandmother, and he said she had pictures of horses anywhere. Why did she have pictures of horses? Did she like horses? And you know, so he was right back in his grandmother's uh front room without really realizing. So I think it it can sort of activate those memories. I think it shows a lot of patients come, they're not sure at all. They sort of stand in the yard, you can see them looking around. Um, but I think it brings it it can make them a group because they're all like, what the hell is this? What are we doing here? Um and I think a lot of them take away from what the horse does for them. We had a patient the other week, you know, and he was he was a big man, and all of a sudden this beautiful creature was bigger than him, and he got really touched by saying he was unfortunately quite intimidating when he was drinking. And he said, I must be really difficult to be around, I must be scary. He said, Because I'm scared now. But I mean that's just magic.

SPEAKER_02

It is, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00

So I think a a lot of people can identify uh good times, you know. I had a patient who said I loved horse riding, and you know, I started drinking and I just stopped, didn't do it. So it's sort of it, I think it does really. I always know by my notes, I sit and do my notes afterwards, and I have to really as my daughter trains me with my word count, I then have to go through because I use that to sort of process the group. But there is hopefully every time there's a positive checkout, and I always just say to them, you know, be honest with me, you can say absolute gobbledygook, don't get why I'm here. Or, you know, and most of the feedback is that it's touched something in them.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I I I can imagine there might be a bit of a skepticism towards the absolutely the situation or the animal itself. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's a bit odd.

SPEAKER_04

Is it logic? Is it out of uh logical side? Depends also culturally who's been absolutely who can benefit the most from from equine-assisted therapy? Is it like children, um, people with autism, young adults?

SPEAKER_00

I think everyone, I think everybody should have a little bit of a horse in their life. Yeah. I mean, we do work uh with um autistic children, um, we do a lot of work around eating disorders. Um, so we do have separate groups of it. I mean, even with depression and anxiety, you know, that that's because a horse is hope too. A horse is, you know, it can be all right. And I think you know, it's also affection that you know you can give a horse a cuddle and a a stroke and it it will tolerate it. Yes, and it gives it back. So I th I think you know, everyone if it's authentic, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Or it may walk right away.

SPEAKER_00

It depends. It depends because if he's walking away, he's picked up something. Yes, and they pick that up, they can pick up certain behaviours, let's put it like that. They they know, they know, and sometimes it, you know, like that gentleman, it opened up a process of, you know, I'm not great when I'm drinking, I'm not a very nice person. You'd never get I couldn't sit in a group and say, so what are you like? You know, it it does, it does definitely, and I think it also it does bring out a lot of the child in people.

SPEAKER_04

I was just thinking about let's say young girls, what is it they are so attracted to horses? Is it like the freedom they can find with it, the the size?

SPEAKER_00

Fantasy, I think.

SPEAKER_04

Fantasy.

SPEAKER_00

Mine was I used there was a program called Flambards, um, and every Sunday night, because of course we didn't have videos, was flamards, and even when I'm anxious, I still hum the tune to flambards, which is ridiculous. My parents think it's hysterical, but I can go straight back there. Yeah, um, but for me it was fantasy, flambards was fantasy and and having a horse. So I think it it's that, but I think it's boys as well. It's quite quite common in I just I don't think men are so quick to say, you know, I loved horse riding. Because I, you know, I think it's one of those. I mean, definitely in England, I think you know, you horse ride on a Saturday or you play football. That was my generation. Yeah, you know, my brother was off playing football and I was on on a horse.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, probably everyone should find this this fantasy again and and lives. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I literally, when I am there, when I'm on my own, I'm I'm a 10-year-old girl. Yeah, I really am. It's you know, I've it's I video myself, I send pictures to everyone, I bore everyone. Most of my pictures on my phone are my horses, not my children.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, what do they think about that?

SPEAKER_00

I think they love it.

SPEAKER_04

They accepted it, probably.

SPEAKER_00

They love it. They know I'm off to my my my children's age, she's off to a happy place, you know, and I I am because it's there's also just going back to it a little bit, but it's also the point of when you're with a horse, you know, they just go to the toilet in front of you. There's no, you know, there is I know that there's stuff around, you know, there's different smells around. And I think sometimes that that can really bring up that brings up all sorts of stuff. You know, if a horse goes to the toilet in front of it in a session, it's like, whoa, you know, that does a whole whole process. It's nature, isn't it? It's what we all do, and it's it takes every it's strip. I think equine strips everyone back. Doesn't matter who you are, horse don't care.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, yes. And your children, are they connected also to horses?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They all rode, they all um, and every now and again if we're on a holiday and there's a horse riding, I will encourage them. But I think it's it's my stuff, isn't it? It's me. You know, I'm glad that they love them. Like I glad we've we've uh I just bought a huge painting of a horse and put it in my kitchen, and they're like, you know, they they know, they know, but you know, it's it's um my daughter rode, my son's road. Yeah, my youngest son was really good at it. I wish he'd if I could have pushed a bit more, I would have pushed him a bit more.

SPEAKER_04

But maybe he will come back to it. Maybe he will say because it happens, I mean, it happened also with us. Um, my my wife was as a young, young girl also into horses, and she was riding. Then then she left it through life, and then later on, she started again. And today we live on a farm with six horses, and uh I know what it means because it's a lot of work, also. But my wife doesn't necessarily ride, she's a good rider, but she doesn't necessarily need to ride every day, she just loves to be around them. And um as we live together, so I I'm also connected with the horses. Um, sometimes I go take care of certain things. Doesn't matter how stressful the day was or is, it just brings me to the present moment because their presence, their energy, their breath. Um it's just um yeah, it's just takes you out of your mind. That's the feeling I I experience.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think even when they come, I've turned, I mean, they know my car. I laugh because I turn up, and if I've got George Michael blowing out, they'll they're you hear and I love it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it happens also.

SPEAKER_00

They know you, don't they?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, they sit and watch who's coming.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Did you find your passion and purpose now?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it was in in a way that I didn't think I would, but I feel very lucky. I'd I I left the priory because I I felt I'd done my time there and I couldn't go any further than I needed something different, and also I wanted to be a bit more flexible. And I think having a private practice and working with the horses and working for the balance is is perfect for me because it's it's it is that I get to do, I get to hopefully help people make a bit of a difference, care for them, and do all that sometimes with a horse. So yeah, I think I I found I found my path. I found my, you know, and I think it does show that, you know, I started again at 50, you know, scared, scared out of my life walking into college, scared out of how am I going to do this. But I think, you know, yeah, I I did, I finally found it.

SPEAKER_04

You found a powerful team, training and horses.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. And I found I found a different confidence. I feel a different confidence in myself. I don't worry about, you know, what other mothers think about me, what other I was I've always worried about what people think about me. And now the great thing is they go, Oh god, she's a mad lady with horses. I'm all right with that title. I'm fine with that.

SPEAKER_04

That's good. We should all be absolutely except ourselves.

SPEAKER_00

Just have a bit of hope.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, yeah. Beside horses, what do you do in your personal life to stay in balance?

SPEAKER_00

I swim. So I swim um most mornings. I get up, I'm the mad lady outside swimming, come rain or shine. In outside swimming pool, not outside. I get lost. I'm always lost. Um, so I swim a lot. I love, I love swimming. I think that's that's my where I kind of process. That's my I think about my patience, I think about what's going on, I think about the kids, I do my to-do list. So I think um swimming, I love walking. Um, I like being outside. I think it's being outside, is you know, having that time to sort of just be outside in nature. I'm not very good at all the mindfulness stuff, I'm not very good at yoga, and I haven't got the patience and yoga on like that, and then I'm like, I'll move on. Um, but I think I get a uh a lot from my watching my children go on to their next stage of life, but still needing mummy every now and again, which I like. Which is good, which is good. Um, yeah, so just taking each day as it comes and enjoying each day as much as I can.

SPEAKER_04

Beautiful. Yes. Um, so thank you for bringing us into nature today. I love talking about horses and nature and uh also your personal journey. Thank you for sharing that with us.

SPEAKER_00

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and thank you for taking the time and the work you do.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me. It's been lovely, really enjoyed it.