Workplace Conflct - What Smart Leaders Do Differently with Rick Buccheri I|

In this episode of the OrgDev Podcast, we’re joined by Rick Buccheri, an organisational development practitioner based in New York, to explore conflict, collaboration and the real work of change. Drawing on his experience in organisational consulting and conflict resolution, Rick shares how tension shows up beneath the surface of teams - and what it takes to engage with it productively.

We discuss why conflict is often avoided or mishandled, how power and responsibility shape workplace dynamics, and what leaders can do to create the conditions for more honest, effective conversations. Rather than seeing conflict as something to eliminate, Rick reframes it as a capability - one that organisations need to develop if they want to work through complexity and deliver meaningful change.

If you work in leadership, HR or organisation development, this episode offers a practical perspective on how to navigate conflict, strengthen collaboration and support teams to take responsibility rather than defaulting to blame.

Wish you had a handy recap of the episode? So did we.

That’s why each week in our Next Step to Better newsletter, we’re sharing From Pod to Practice – a 2-page visual summary of each episode designed to help you take the learning from the podcast and into your work.

You’ll get:
 ■ Key insights from the episode
 ■ A reflection prompt
 ■ A suggested action

Sign up now to get From Pod to Practice delivered to your inbox each week: https://distinction.live/keep-in-touch/

About Us

We’re Dani and Garin – Organisation Development (OD) practitioners who help leaders and people professionals tackle the messiness of organisational life. We focus on building leadership capability, strengthening team effectiveness, and designing practical, systemic development programmes that help you deliver on your team and organisational goals. We also offer coaching to support individual growth and change.

Find out more at www.distinction.live 

We'd love to connect with you on Linked In:
linkedin.com/in/danibacon478
https://www.linkedin.com/in/garinrouch

Transcript

(00:00) Hi, welcome to the org dev podcast. So conflict is inevitable in organizations, but how we work with it or avoid it shapes everything. What do you do when employees are pulling in different directions or conflict is simmering beneath the surface and performance is being quietly eroded. In this episode of the ordev podcast, we're joined from New York City by Rick Rukeri to explore conflict collaboration and what it really takes to engage passionate people in meaningful change.
(00:30) Rick is an expert in navigating power, creating greater equity, and designing processes that genuinely encourage people to take responsibility with resolving conflicts rather than blaming others. Rick is an organizational development consultant who specializes in mission-based organizations. He has two decades of experience in interpersonal and organizational conflict resolution, and he brings a deep understanding of how to help people work productively together in even the most challenging of environments. He began his career as a
(00:58) community mediator and large group facilitator. And since then, he's worked across both large federal organizations and smaller nonprofits. Naturally, Inc. has extensive professional qualifications. He holds a masters in organization development from American University. He's a certified conflict coach and has also served as adjunct instructor.
(01:17) Now Danny and I have been waiting 97 episodes to do an episode on conflict and we've been waiting until we found the perfect guest which is why we're absolutely delighted to welcome Rick to the ordev podcast. So thank you so much for making time to talk. >> Thank you. It's a delight to be here. Oh, we're really really excited to have you with us.
(01:49) So, just to kick us off, just tell us a bit about the work you do. Bring that to life for the audience, your work. >> Yeah, I think about and I kind of talk about my work in two ways. So, one is that I'm an organizational conflict consultant. So due to my history and background in conflict work, um so much of the work that comes my way is, you know, conflict related.
(02:10) There's tension in organizations. There's people not getting along. There's something there that makes them go, "Oh, we need somebody specialized in conflict." And so, um, a lot of that comes my way. But, but I really use that term organizational conflict consultant because to me, it sort of marries the conflict work with the organizational development piece.
(02:30) It's like I'm really looking at not just the interpersonal but the broader system and how we support you know organizations in addressing conflict in productive ways. The other way sorry that I think of my work myself is that I'm a facilitator of conversations that need to happen and that's sort of what anchors me and uh when I find myself sort of lost in the work or there's a lot of information coming my way and I'm not sure how to most be effective it's like okay what are the conversations that need to happen here how do I help support those
(03:04) and enable them to happen in a productive way >> um before we unpack your work itself and we've got lots of questions about the kind of the ins and outs. Just take us back to the beginning. Do you what led you into this work? Where did you start? What did that look like? >> It's a it's sort of a long journey and I'll go like all the way back.
(03:20) So in my early 20s, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do with my life and it was my sister actually who worked at a bank and she said, "You should apply for a job in in the mail room and then just work your way up the corporate ladder or something." And I thought, "Okay, sure. Yeah, that sounds great." So I applied for a job in the mail room and I became a bank teller.
(03:40) I did that for a few years and then worked went over to the corporate side which was subprime mortgage lending and I stayed in that work for years. Thought okay I'll work my way up the corporate ladder. This is in the early 2000s and and it just I found it so sucking. um the sort of corporate environment of cubicles and offices uh you know was just very like kind of stagnant and and depressing.
(04:07) Um I watched the subprime mortgage lending industry that was already sort of morally questionable um do increasingly morally questionable things. I saw the implications of that start to unfold and how the pursuit of of money and capital really destroyed and ate away at the corporate culture and what it was doing to people on a more personal and interpersonal level.
(04:35) And I just I just found it also miserable. And I thought I need to do something else with my life. And uh through some referrals and recommendations I found my way to community mediation in Baltimore, Maryland. And I walked in the room to like just an orientation session. It was 2 hours and it was so like I don't know what this is but I have to be a part of it.
(04:58) And I became trained as a community mediator and eventually went to work for that mediation center that trains me. And that work was so transformational. The training itself was really transformational, but the work also. And so I cut my teeth for a few years doing work where I was walking, you know, people were walking into the room screaming and then like continued to scream at each other for for two hours.
(05:21) And so it was really really intense conflict. And I just absolutely fell in love with with doing that and really feeling like I was bringing some value back to my own community. I was doing something that was like making a change in people's lives, making a change in mine. I mean, there's something so incredible about being with complete strangers while they unload just the most vulnerable details of their lives.
(05:49) Yeah, I found that work just so impactful and meaningful. At the same time, I was in Baltimore. I was also doing a lot of volunteer work with different or like nonprofit organizations around the city and I started to encounter organization after organization that was having the same set of challenges and I was like well this is odd.
(06:07) I wonder why nobody's figured this out. Nobody's solved these things. And later when I moved from Maryland to Washington DC uh uh that's where I stumbled upon American University's organizational development program. And when I found it, I was like, this is conflict resolution on a bigger scale. That's all this is. Sign me up for this.
(06:28) So that was really, you know, that could have brought me into organizational development. And then when I left that program, when I graduated with my degree, I found ADR Vantage, a small consulting firm in Washington DC that was working with the federal government. And they were working at the intersection of organizational development and conflict resolution.
(06:48) And I said, "I am your person." Like, "It's me. You must hire me." Like, and you know, and and and they did. And I got to do that work for like the next 12 years of federal consulting. Um, until very recently when a lot of that work started to disappear with a change in the executive administration. So now I'm in a place where I'm kind of refiguring things out a bit, but um, yeah, that's kind of the journey so far.
(07:15) How does that background in conflict resolution kind of shape how you practice organization development? What what does it what does it bring to your practice? >> Good question. Um I think so in there's a couple of things that I think stood out to me when I was studying OD something that I showed up with that I that uh others in the program didn't necessarily.
(07:37) I think they learned to develop those things and cultivate those things. But I think I, you know, kind of walked in the door with a slight advantage in that one, I was already uh experienced in and equipped to help people feel heard, to, you know, really listen and reflect back what I was hearing in a way that really made people go, "Yes, thank you.
(07:56) Somebody is is hearing what I'm saying." The other piece was around self-determination, which I think is so critical in organizational development where you're enabling people to make their own decisions. So, I really distinguish myself from I hate to sort of categorize all management consultants, but I'll I'll use that term here.
(08:17) I think there's a real difference between going in and saying, "I'm an expert. I know what's best. I'm going to provide those answers and solutions to you and surfacing the right kind of dialogue that helps people come to their own conclusions and make their own decisions." So, I think those pieces were really foundational.
(08:34) And then I think sometimes to a fault I where the conflict lands and so I'm always looking to go a bit below the surface and I'm very comfortable going below the surface and surfacing you know kind of like what's the real thing underneath here that like what's the conversation we're not having and I think that's a real skill because uh there's a comfort there like I I have a real ease and ability to ask the questions that get to that place really quickly And it can be a detriment at times because I need to keep it in check
(09:06) because I'm like, is this the most useful place right now? Is this the place where the client is trying to go, you know, like so that's an assessment I always have to do with myself as well. >> You said organizations will bring you in because they've got conflict and they they feel they need some conflict resolution.
(09:23) How do you kind of ascertain whether it's about kind of the individuals that you're often it's posed as there's an issue between person A and person B, but of something more structural. So, how do you kind of unpack that and kind of work your way through? >> It's a good question and I think you know particularly in the federal government a lot of that work was responding to requests for proposals and so it was like kind of very strict and very narrow and um which makes it difficult then to go outside of the bounds to address broader systemic
(09:51) issues. Uh but I think the education in organizational development really gave me those lenses to see some of those more systemic issues and over the course of my career you know an increased comfort and ability to raise those issues to the awareness of of the people in the system and the people have you know influence in that system.
(10:15) Um now that uh I'm operating independently and you know organizations are coming my way not through proposals but through referrals it's a little more easy for me to then do that work and start to you know again >> the awareness piece is the is one of the biggest pieces right and the first piece it's like first we have to help them help clients see what we see what they do with it will ultimately be up to them but they need to see it first and so you know I think that's a big piece of the and I feel more comfort and freedom to
(10:46) do that now. >> It's such a fascinating area and I guess I'm just I'm curious about the craft almost cuz you know you described a situation where people come in and they're screaming at each other and and it's interesting in the buildup to a conflict, isn't it? Because often we've recruited people to our story.
(11:02) The episode starts in a particular place for us. um the other party may not even be aware or their episode starts in a different place and they're telling each other's story and you come in and emotions are so heightened like how do you even begin that kind of process of helping people get to the point where they can start to see other perspectives and maybe there's a little bit more to the story than first imagined >> there's so much in that question like the I I feel like I have like 40 different answers to that question
(11:30) >> we're happy just for you to take the rest of the session we're we're fascinated by Um so uh one piece let me address is like absolutely you know conflict is so complex. There's no one source of a conflict. There's often you know many different sources of a conflict and it's not you know sometimes people might point to an inciting incident but it's usually began much you know longer before that inciting incident.
(12:00) And so being able to track the chronology of a conflict is is really tricky like when did it begin or end? you know, where are the boundaries at this thing? Who's involved? Who's not involved? Like sometimes those are really murky questions. So with that murkiness, the intervention point is is now, right? Like like here we are like we have to do something now.
(12:19) Like we don't need to go back to the beginning and unpack every root cause. There's always this balance between how much do we need to unpack and address what's happened in the past so that there's some oh I hate to use the term resolution but some acknowledgement of what happened what the harm was there maybe some acceptance and ownership of you know responsibility for that and then there's some you know kind of closure and moving on so there's the dealing with the past and then there's like the well how do we want things to
(12:49) look in the future and a big piece of conflict work is like figuring out when to make those transitions and when to go, okay, you know what? We need to slow down and go back to the past and unpack that a bit more versus we're spinning our wheels here. There's no momentum. We've got to figure out what the future looks like.
(13:07) That's a piece of it I've learned. One of those things I learned over and over and over in my career is that there's so much that goes into sort of the ground setting and how you prepare people um for what the conversation will look like and what you do to set the tone in that conversation and leading up to the conversation that really gets people to the right place.
(13:26) Uh, so that's something that I pay more and more attention to over time when I'm specifically conflict work and I'll just sort of use the example of like like a mediation or facilitated dialogue between two people. So when I bring those people together, I let them know I'm going to talk at you for 10 minutes or so before I give you a chance to talk.
(13:49) Um, just to like even set that, right? So I then I explain the process to them, kind of set that tone again, let them know what's going to happen, make sure they have an opportunity to ask questions and express any concerns. We'll address those collaboratively if somebody is like, "Well, I don't like the fact that they're in a seat that's taller than my seat." Great.
(14:06) What would you like to see happen about that? You know, like, so we're starting that collaborative work right away. But when we get into the sort of like, you know, real conflict piece of it, my question is, so what brought you here? It's that simple, right? what would you like to talk about today? They're going to begin wherever they begin. It doesn't matter.
(14:23) What's important to me is that they start feeling heard right away and that I'm fostering conversation between them. So, I sort of make this joke, but I think it it's I've seen it play out so many times, right, that people when this conversation begins, they'll turn to me and they'll go, "God, can you believe what a jerk he's been?" and you know they they they talk to me about this other person and at some point in the conversation they'll turn to each other and go you are such a jerk and I go great we're making progress they're
(14:56) talking to each other you know like so that that's a big moment and and it's important to make sure that whatever they say they can say it to each other but then to yeah make that conversation more and more productive and that simple work of helping people feel heard making sure that they're their feelings and emotions are part of the conversation.
(15:18) It sounds like you're feeling disrespected. It sounds like you feel disappointed. Whatever that might be, really softens people and deescalates conflict, right? And so once like we're at a place of deescalation, you know, then we can start to kind of rethink what needs to be discussed, how do we need to discuss it, right? But it is that first bit of like kind of deescalating and and and conflict isn't linear. It's it's up and down.
(15:40) And so somebody might have one comment that totally reignites the whole thing. So it's constantly helping people feel heard, but um that work of deescalation I think is so critical. It allows you to get to a place of just like a more productive dialogue that I think anyone could facilitate. >> It is that it's not necessarily what the presenting symptom is, isn't it? And there's that kind of saying, isn't there? Like if someone's really emotional about a thing, it's often not the thing that's actually causing.
(16:06) What kind of tells you that there's actually there's something going on beneath the surface and that needs a little bit of digging? Like what are those kind of clues that would say, "Okay, I think we need to go beneath the surface here." >> Yeah. Oh, fascinating question. Well, so like in that context that you know to people um it's everything.
(16:24) It's body language. It's facial expressions. It's the little quivers in voice and tone. You know, it's things that people say that contradict something else that they've said or, you know, they keep repeating something and it's not clear why they keep repeating it. And it's like, okay, there's something we're missing here.
(16:43) So, what what's the data we can pull out that's going to, you know, help them go, okay, there it is. You know, but in in organizations, it's different. And I really consider myself like I'm big on data collection. Let me get more data. Uh you know MyersBriggs like I'm a big N like I'm a big intuittor. And so I can start telling a story very quickly that that may not be the right story but but I can build and craft a story.
(17:08) So when I walk into an organization, I'm starting to tell that story right away. or if somebody contacts me, you know, like let's say somebody sends me an email about working together, that initial email, I'm already starting to diagnose not just from like what they've said in their email, but like how did it come to me, what time of day, you know, when I walk into an organization, I'm like looking at the decoration on the walls and how they structure their physical environment.
(17:34) I'm starting to build a story. And often it's just like that in intuition that is like oh there there's there there's like something here the the office space that uh you know I was just doing some work in California and a lot of cubicles but it was like sort of a dark office space with very few people in it. So lots of empty offices, empty cubicles, you know.
(17:56) So I I look at that and I go what is this telling me about how people work together here? and what is this telling me about what else might be going on, you know, than what the whatever kind of presenting issue the the client is asking me to help address. >> Yeah, there there's so there's so many you can never predict where it's going to be, but it's like it's just it gives you a curiosity as well.
(18:17) I've got a bonus question for you. Question I've always wondered, what is it about the human condition? One of the things I'd loved about your description there is the amount of preparation that you go into creating a context that's warm enough for the work to happen. So meeting with people so that when you do open this container up for people to talk in a different way, they kind of know what's coming, but they still talk through you.
(18:41) And often in lots of conflicts, conflicts need that third party either to maintain the conflict. So we go through our manager and then back down to the person we're really annoyed with or we need that mediator. What is it about that third party that allows conflict there to to be pathized or or made better? >> Yeah, I love that.
(19:00) I think there's something so powerful about that third party, right? And I can think of times when I showed up to help people, you know, we did all like the ground setting and the kind of preparation work, but once the once I said, "Okay, what brought you here?" They continue to talk and and I, you know, tried to find every opportunity to break into their conversation and couldn't, right? And there's still something so powerful about that, right? Like, why couldn't they have this conversation on their own? Why did they need to bring in a
(19:31) third party for this conversation to unfold? An example from years ago that I sometimes give is, you know, this was a mediation in Maryland and um one party shows up and we're sort of waiting for the other person to show up and she shows up late, walks in the door, says, "I just came here to tell you I'll see you in court." And walked out.
(19:55) Now, clearly that's not a conflict resolved, but I'm like, there's something powerful about this setting. Why why did she need this setting to say that? So, sometimes I just think having another person present changes the dynamic, right? Or the formality. Not that I I really try to take a formality out of a facilitated conversation like this, but it there's still some, you know, it's more formal than sitting on the couch having an argument.
(20:21) So, degree of formality, I think, makes people show up a little bit differently. there's something, you know, about that. But again, a lot of it, a lot of the work goes into the language that I use, the tone I use, the, you know, the way that I ask questions and draw people in to just set that tone right from the beginning and let them know that this conversation is going to be different than the ones that you've been having.
(20:41) That's always my goal. Let's not just repeat what you've been doing outside of here. There's no point to that. Let's make this conversation different. So, what do you need to make this conversation different than the ones you've been having? That's like part of that preparation piece as well. >> One other bit you mentioned there and there's a lot of people watching this that are in the early stages of their sort of facilitation or all OD career as well.
(21:04) And you talked about the fact that when you're in the room, they'll talk through you as you're almost like the vessel initially, aren't you? Because we're about OD is about providing just enough scaffolding for this to start. And >> sometimes you could pathize it if all they do is talk through you, isn't it? So it's safe to actually directly work, it start to direct them to each other and why do people need to talk through us initially and what do OD practitioners need to be mindful of? >> Yeah, I think it's the degree of like the the conflict itself and the tension
(21:41) in the conflict, right? So, if it's just something that's really highly escalated or there's been a lot of harm done, you know, people are so kind of pent up with emotion that they just don't know how to communicate to each other or all the communication they've done together has just not been productive or it's been hurtful.
(22:00) Um, and so they're not eager to to try that again. Uh, so they have this third person and so they're like, "Okay, let me use this third person to say what I need to say." And again, you know, my goal is to get them to talk to each other. And sometimes that's just as simple as one person, you know, vents and I'll reflect back what I'm hearing and turn to the other person and say, "And what do you think about that?" Right? And then they'll jump in and and and just little by little people start to like work kind of towards each other until, you know, it isn't always that
(22:28) they turn and go, "Well, you're such a jerk." You know, like it's not always like kind of with that vitriel. It's um and sometimes it's with a lot more, but you know, it's just like this little by little movements towards each other where I go, okay, great. The conversation's happening a little more productively.
(22:46) Oh, they just expressed something they hadn't expressed previously. Oh, that person just acknowledged something that the other person expressed that they had not acknowledged previously. You know, it's just like those little movements over time until you go, great, you're doing it. You're you're you don't even need me here. like I'm here.
(23:05) I will continue to support you, but it's like I I always want to emphasize and this is in the conflict work and my organizational work. It's like I want to empower people to do this work on their own to not need me here. I'm always working myself out of a job. Um you know, and I and so like I emphasize that when people are doing it, I'm like, "Okay, you see the you see how this conversation is happening, right? It's like th this is different than what you've been doing.
(23:33) " and it's working. So, like, how do we continue this, right? How do we continue to make this dialogue productive? >> You mentioned just playing it back to them. So, paraphrasing what you've heard. >> That almost has magical powers, doesn't it? What What is it about paraphrasing it back to people that just really helps so much? What does it do? Because when you're in, for example, like a coaching session, you paraphrase it back to don't necessarily have to come up with anything insightful or anything like that. Just the paraphrasing.
(24:00) >> I think so. I I make this distinction, right, because I think a lot of times in sort of conflict training or communication training, there's a distinction between like hearing and listening. And I'm like, you know, it took me some years to hear this, but I was like, oh, the goal isn't listening because the listening is still about our experience.
(24:21) The goal is to help the other person feel heard. And I think that's what the reflective listening does, right? Because if you just respond to what the other person said, it's still sort of like about you and your thoughts and what you want to add to the conversation. But if you're trying to help the other person feel heard, it's just kind of like being that mirror in a way and like giving it back to them.
(24:42) And I don't think society, I don't think it's something we do in our normal conversations. We listen and we add to the conversation and sometimes we don't even listen, right? The uh and sometimes we don't even hear. Um, but I just think it's so distinct because it's so unusual, right? It's it's coaching and like conflict work.
(25:03) It's it's not built into many professions or like other parts of our our lives. >> So, I wanted to ask you, so we're often talk about healthy conflict or productive conflict in organizations. And I wonder what you what your take on those terms was and and what does healthy conflict look like in an organization? What would we see? >> Uh, yeah.
(25:22) Well, this so you're going to take me to like one of my soap boxes, which is actually um I really think you know like if if you sort of look at like conflict work, some of the the three terms that you will most commonly find associated with the word conflict is like conflict resolution, conflict prevention, and conflict management. And if you take those two with those three phrases, it really kind of communicates that conflict is bad, that we want to avoid it, that we want to kind of suppress it.
(25:54) And and then if if we sort of hold that view of conflict, then it really shows up in how we choose to engage it or not. So I really try to think of conflict navigation like help people figure out how to navigate conflict. That feels much more productive to me. Conflict is inevitable. It is such a just core part of human existence.
(26:17) You have it in every arena of your life. You have it in every interpersonal interaction. Like there is always conflict there. There's no way to avoid it. So if it's so natural, it's so normal, it's so inevitable, why aren't we developing the skill set to help us navigate it more effectively? So for me, you know, that sort of like healthy unhealthy, it's how do we learn to live with it? How do how do we make it more a normal part of our experience and not freak out as soon as there's a moment of tension, right? How do we recognize that
(26:48) like, oh yeah, this is uncomfortable and I know we can work through this and we're going to have this conversation even though it's going to be a little bit painful and that's going to be fine. We can do that. And even to know that I might yell, I might get emotional or you might yell, you might get emotional and that we're going to be okay after that.
(27:08) If we can sort of normalize some more of that, I think that is part of healthy conflict. Not that I think that like you know say like in a workplace you want to have people yelling but the idea that like we can recover and restore and repair is I think really important to a healthy approach to conflict.
(27:30) And I guess a follow- on question if we've because there'll be people managing teams who are listening to this podcast. If they are uncomfortable with conflict and they're kind of in that avoidance space, what advice would you give them to kind of next steps if they're aware of >> conflict in their team or between individuals, what would you say to them in terms of a real practical? Yeah, my my my glib answer has become a mediator because you know like I my natural mode is to avoid conflict like that is you know just due to sort of my my
(27:58) upbringing and natural tendency is like I I'm a big avoider and so it takes a lot of work to get out of that um it takes a lot of a lot of practice to become comfortable and like there's no if there's tension in a person I'm not comfortable with it right like if it's in my conflict and where I was trained to be a mediator.
(28:19) There's a common expression that you're never neutral in your own conflict, you know, meaning like you can't be outside of it. Like you're, you know, like you're going to feel the emotions, you're going to feel the anger and the discomfort. And I and so part of it is just like practice, right? But I think there's a lot of work that people can do.
(28:36) So like if you just think about whatever your your kind of most conflict laden relationship is and really focus on like that next conversation and be thinking about like how do I need that conversation to go like what do I want to get out of it? What do I want to express? What space do I want to create for the other person? what if I is going to set me off and really like make me overwhelmed with emotions and how do I want to rethink how I want to show up in that moment when it happens right so I think there's just a lot of like basic preparation
(29:08) that people can do I think there's again so much comes from practice and there's you know even looking back at like my own life in certain conflict situations there's times when I can go I can look at an interaction and focus on how uncomfortable able and difficult it was walk away feeling like oh god I don't I don't know if that's you know like it almost hurts to reflect on that experience but I can look back at that same interaction and be like oh no actually I I said the thing I needed to say I listened and I heard the other
(29:42) person out and I helped make them feel hurt in that moment and it was still uncomfortable and painful right like so it can still be productive but it's like it's I say that like it's it's still never easy it doesn't matter how much conflict you have or how much you've worked through. It's never easy.
(29:57) There's always some pain and discomfort to it. Um, but you have to develop that comfort and the confidence that like it's going to be okay. And then like the practice to just do it and work through it. >> One thing we sort of see a lot in conflicts is the idea of fairness in terms of sort of driving conflict. It's not fair and people have different measures of fairness as well.
(30:20) How do you and and obviously the world isn't fair in many respects so justice isn't neatly dealt with uh in those ways. How do you sort of work with someone who has a really sort of black and white thinking of what is right, what is wrong, what is fair. >> Yeah. the model of mediation that I was trained in which is called the inclusive mediation model you know presented by community mediation Maryland just to and I'll champion them here because an organization that is has really pioneered mediation and conflict work
(30:48) for I guess like two decades now maybe more but their model of listening and helping people feel heard there's a focus on emotions and there's also a focus on values so those like one-word things like fairness convenience is respect, obedience, accountability, authority, you know, like whatever it may be.
(31:12) And a big piece of that work is using those values to like first abstract like they help abstract the conflict so that like if you're articulating your position about a conflict, uh but then I reflect back, well, it sounds like what's important to you is fairness, you know, the other person can go, oh, of course, fairness, I get that.
(31:30) Like it makes sense, right? like it sort of abstracts the conflict to a point where we can get people on the same page. But at some point, we've got to do that work of saying, "Okay, Garen, like what does fairness look like to you?" And when you think about how to resolve this conflict moving forward, what would let you know that things are fair, right? And we can start to explore those those potential solutions.
(31:51) And it's the same work with like any other value. So you say respectful communication is important to you. What does respect look like to you? like we've just got to get to, you know, those individualized definitions and start to use those definitions to like anchor ourselves towards potential solutions, you know, that's different from what I I would, you know, describe more as like the kind of systemic fairness, the procedural fairness, you know.
(32:21) So, in the federal mediation work that I've done, it's not uncommon for an employee to initiate a conflict resolution process and come to the mediation table by themselves and the agency wants to bring their legal counsel and somebody from HR and the manager and the manager's manager, you know, and it's like, well, that's not necessarily fair, right? So, there's that degree of fairness as well that sometimes needs to be accounted for.
(32:47) And that's part of the preparation piece of like making sure we can equalize the playing field as much as possible so that it's not parties coming together. It's not sides coming together. It's just two people having a conversation about what's real for them. >> So I guess as as organization development practitioners, we spend a lot of our time in in facilitated workshops and sessions and and we'll see conflict building and escalating in the room.
(33:12) And there's kind of a judgment call, isn't there, about when you intervene and you name it and address it or whether you kind of just let the tension do its own work. And I'm just interested to hear your take on on that. >> Yeah. What your thoughts? >> This is one of those places where there's probably no right answer, but I think you you just said something really important, which is like to to name it.
(33:28) Um I think that is a really powerful intervention in and of itself where you're like, I some something just happened. What you know, like what what was that, right? like if there was like a moment of tension or if it's like there's a real shift in the energy in the room and I'm not sure what it is that's shifting h help me understand that right and again so much of like how we do those interventions make such a big difference like are we making a big deal of it are we getting uncomfortable because there's conflict in the room um
(33:57) are we adding to that tension by bringing our own discomfort to the room I've seen particularly I think back to earlier in my career um I was doing a lot of co-mediation and I worked with mediators who would get so uncomfortable as soon as the conversation got heated and they would be like okay let's let's calm everything down you know and they would like really try to sort of um assert calmness you know rather than doing the work it takes to deescalate and um so I I think that matters like how how we show up as practitioners in
(34:32) that space but I don't know like that there's like a real clear like if we let this go on it's going to be a problem versus if we unpack this now it might derail our agenda you know is this the right place for that again naming it is important I think tracking it something that I have found really important in my work is when things don't get addressed in the moment to make sure that I'm working with clients so that they're equipped to address it at some point in this process together right so that it doesn't get lost it doesn't get glossed
(35:06) over. >> Hi, we're just pausing this interview for a moment. Have you ever finished an episode of the org dev podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet that summarizes all of the key points? Us two, so we made one. It's called from pod to practice. And each week in our newsletter will share a two-page summary of the latest org dev episode, and it includes key takeaways, a reflection prompt, and one small action you can try.
(35:30) >> And it's all in a digital format with space at the end to add your own notes and reflections. and it's designed to help you take the learning from the podcast into your day-to-day work. So to get your copy, just sign up to our next step to better newsletter, the links in the show notes, or you can visit our website at www.distinction.
(35:45) live to get the latest from pod to practice in your inbox and let us know what you think. We'd love to get your feedback. And the other question I wanted to ask, you talk about working with purpose-driven organizations. Do you see does purpose intensify disagreement and conflict? Do you see that? Is it harder to work with conflict or is it more prevalent when people are really purpose driven? No, it that's interesting.
(36:05) I think in fact purpose helps find ways through conflict in that it's a real anchor for people clarifies decisions at times right like are we living into our purpose in this moment and if the answer is no then like what do we want to have you know what do we want to do differently I don't have a specific example so I'll try to like kind of generalize here you know like I've done a lot of conflict work with uh the transportation and security administration I've worked with a lot in the course of a mediation to me when
(36:39) there was sort of disagreement between an employee and a manager about how this employee was showing up. The employee said, you know, the traveling public sees me as a barrier to getting to their their gate. I am the thing that helps them get to their gate safely. That is why I did, you know, XYZ. And the manager was like, "Oh yes, okay.
(37:04) " Okay, like I can recontextualize your actions and relook at this through a different lens. So I think, you know, sometimes it'll be a good anchor. Um, yeah, I'm trying to think of like I I'm I haven't pondered that question before. So I'm I'm trying to think in this moment of like if I think purpose-driven organizations show up any differently as it relates to conflict.
(37:26) I mean, I think structurally around like nonprofits, there's things that feed into conflict. Yeah. I mean just like the relationship between the board and the rest of the organization I think is often like a very fraught one. The relationship of how a board governs I think is often sort of very fraught. So there's things like that that are more structural in purpose- driven organizations that I think can lead to conflict.
(37:50) >> There's one thing you just talked about there which is what someone intended. So impact intended versus impact felt. whatever it is the logic behind someone's actions is that an important part of the because that's where the misunderstanding often happens isn't it where what I intended >> and I I what I've seen I feel like in you know kind of training programs and and literature is this emphasis on no no let's shift away it's not about your intent and what I've learned in my own conflict work is that both of those
(38:19) things are so incredibly important but if you do not address impact first nobody cares about your intent so we've got to go back can look at what was the impact of your actions. Uh let's explore that. And then once people feel like heard and acknowledged around like yes, you understand now how you've impacted me.
(38:43) Now I'm in a place where I can hear and consider and care about your intent. But like if you if you just don't care about the impact of your actions, I don't care about your intent at all. Another thing is I probably in my own practice a little harder on people I'm working with who are bystanders to conflict. >> They'll often give an account of well these two they've always been like this.
(39:04) you know, the other meeting I could just see on the agenda they were going to have an argument about this and I'm like, well, you're just as responsible as they are to a certain extent because you're enabling this to happen and how could you intervene to have made this there what what is the role of the bystander? Because a lot of organization development is about everybody taking the right amount of responsibility for things working, isn't it? So, what is the role of the bystander that's seeing a conflict that's actually happening and
(39:30) actually playing their part and what can they do? Well, I think you just named it that they're they're playing a part and and it's it's funny to me because I feel like so much conflict work is around let's figure out the fewest number of people we need at the table to make this conversation productive and organizational development work is like let's bring all the stakeholders into the room at the same time.
(39:53) And again, you know, there's never like clear right answers. Um but I do think you know helping people figure out what their role in a dynamic is is very powerful and not only that but like what has your role been you know that that focus on the past to what do you want your contribution to be moving forward um th those are different conversations a colleague of mine who I've worked with for years Alan Durant at who was at TSA um brilliantly like and this was a intervention that I used to be like really opposed to and I've actually seen
(40:26) it kind of be very powerful over the years. He would say, "If you were part of the problem, h how were you part of the problem?" Like what was your role and contribution to it? Right? Like if we just assume that and I think that's kind of a brilliant like uh intervention. It's like let's just like not play the game and assume that you have nothing to do with this.
(40:46) Let's just like embrace the idea that yeah, somehow you've had influence on this dynamic. What does that look like? Right? And again, I think so so much of the work is just like softening and reframing and it's like we can just normalize this. It doesn't need to be a hard conversation. Let's just like make it safe to explore this and then we can figure out what to do with it after that.
(41:08) But let's just like explore it and see what there is. And if there's nothing, fine, we can move on. But if there's something here and you do have a role, let's talk about that. Let's figure out what that role has been and what it needs to be in the future. >> And that and that role can be quite significant, although it can feel little at the time.
(41:23) So you know any something happens in a meeting room and then that person who feels wrong goes to make sense of it and rather going back to the initial person that they heard it from they then go to a colleague and say you won't believe what they've done this time and the colleague doesn't neither say yes nor no but they just listen there is a risk that that pathizes the problem isn't there >> for sure and I think like in more one-on-one work or yeah helping other consultants think through how they're working with organizations like that
(41:49) triangulation piece comes up a And that kind of b like helping what like in the one-on-one context when I've done some conflict coaching or things like that like helping people embrace what's the boundary setting that you want to do when people are pulling you into that triangle right or they're trying to gossip or you know engage you know share with you about the dynamic like are yeah how do you want to set boundaries to keep yourself from being pulled into that there's there's work there. Um, and then the last question is
(42:19) is the role of humor in conflict. Often like we're we're recording this from the UK, sarcasm is a sport. Suddenly it's acknowledged as a as a core skill. Um, but but you often you'll find groups that use humor in different ways, isn't it? Rather than doing the sort of the straight talk or is that something that you see in the conflict situation and and how can humor either help or hinder sort of conflict, the navigation of conflict? Yeah, I'm thinking about or like I want to give kind of two paths of answers here. Uh so I'll cite a
(42:49) colleague of mine Steven Kv who is an amazing uh conflict resolution practitioner and he uh does a lot of work uh with the martial arts of Aikido and in and integrating Aikido work into how he uh addresses and works with afflict and he would talk a lot about like disarming right and how to use maybe humor to disarm.
(43:13) So I I do think there's something very powerful there. It's not something I've played around with a lot in my own. I like, you know, humor and I try to be a funny person, but I think when I do work, uh, I'm careful to not lead with humor because I think sometimes it could like come off wrong or it might seem like I'm not being sensitive to the seriousness of what's being discussed at the table.
(43:37) Um, the community mediation model taught me this very early on. They were like, you are a human being when you are at the table, right? So, you can put on your mediator hat, but you're still a human with your own human emotions. Things will happen that will prompt you to laugh or cry or or do something else. And it is okay if the participants laugh, you can laugh, but you will be the last one to laugh and the first one to stop laughing.
(44:05) And so it's like, you know, which is easier said than done, but it's like really making sure, you know, that you're not feeding into a dynamic. So, for example, somebody might make a sort of humorous remark or joke about the other person and it could be something that you find funny, but like they said it in a way that was like meant to be, you know, at the other person's like, so you have to be like really careful about that, too.
(44:31) So, I would say that I probably lean away from humor and while not trying to be too, you know, serious or somber, but I'm I'm very careful with it. Now, in my organizational work, I think there's much more space for it. And definitely I, you know, hold it as a tenant that when we bring a whole system into the room, it's got to be fun.
(44:53) like it doesn't mean that it's going to get silly and away from various topics that need to be discussed, but it has to be a joyful experience that people want to participate in. >> Shifting gears slightly, what aspects of your work do you enjoy the most? Which bits do you find the most fulfilling? >> I mean, so much what I just talked about, but I I think for me like I love data collection and I love, you know, building that's what I think is going on and letting story be challenged by new data. That's super fun for me. So like
(45:24) in organizational work when I get to do interviews and focus groups and you know bring together to really start to let those stories emerge. Um I absolutely just love that part of the work. I guess for me it is part of that data collection is the allowing my curiosity to flourish. Um which sometimes is the thing that like takes our conversation one level deeper.
(45:50) Um, but in both conflict work and I think organizational work, like you're you're kind of contracted to be curious. Like it's part of your role there. And that's a freedom that I don't necessarily always feel in my day-to-day life when I'm interacting with other people or people are talking about their work.
(46:10) You know, it's like I can only go so deep without breaking some social norm. But like when you're in the role of you know facilitator or whatever like you you get to ask all the questions and not you know kind of pursue like your own curiosity you know gets away from what's important to them but just to go deeper in what's important to them without anyone being like you don't get to ask that question you know it's like you have that freedom and I love that freedom.
(46:38) >> Fabulous. And then on the flip side what's the more challenging part of the work that you do? What do you finding? I >> I think something like there's this word that I don't love. Like so when people find out that I do conflict work, they'll go, "Oh, how do you deal with a with a toxic person?" And I always sort of hate that framing because I think like there's not really toxic people, there's toxic dynamic.
(47:03) And you know, it's your earlier point, Garen, like we all play a role. And if somebody is exhibiting what we would call toxic behavior and we're all kind of complaining about it, but we're not doing any to sort of change that dynamic, then then we're playing some role in it. So there's not toxic people, there's toxic behavior.
(47:24) And there are kind of toxic leaders. There are people who will pay a consultant to come in to help them enact some sort of change and then display no interest or willingness to do self-reflection to take personal accountability to give you or you know their teams uh the needed time or attention it takes to to bring about the change they're asking for.
(47:51) And then when that change isn't produced, then they'll blame you or they'll blame others. And that is something that I find incredibly challenging. Now, there's something very powerful and fulfilling when you break through and you help that person see what they're enacting um and see the impacts of what they're enacting.
(48:11) Like that's really powerful. But I think that is such challenging work because it's like again, you know, I'm and doing that data collection and assessing very early on and I feel like there's so many signs that that's coming. You you like you see it very early and you're like, "Oh, here here we go.
(48:27) This is going to be one of those gigs where it's just going to be an uphill battle the entire way." And so, yeah, I think those are challenging, but they they can be very fulfilling as well. >> So, it's a big question. What are some of the biggest lessons you've learned along the way? Yeah, I'm gonna I'll share some quotes here because I think there's a collection of quotes and things and this won't be a complete list, a few that um keep coming up for me and they're like there they become mantras for me where like I will sort of recite them to myself to help anchor my
(48:57) work and refocus me on okay, what do I need to be doing right now? Uh this one is is not a quote, but what I call the 8020 rule. You want to have your clients talking 80% of the time at least and you no more than 20% of the time. Um, I hold true that like anything my clients have to say to each other or to themselves is far more important than anything I have to say to them.
(49:26) And you know, again, I I sort of mentioned it earlier, but like really making sure that I'm not coming in as like I'm the expert. I know what needs to happen. It's helping facilitate their own insight through their own dialogue. That's so important to me. A couple of other things, lessons, Lennox Joseph, who I now uh work with um as I'm an advisory board member of the NL uh Institute for Applied Behavioral Science, also a board member.
(49:53) Lennox Joseph was also a professor of mine and said uh when I was in school in grad school, endings have a great way of bringing up unfinished business. Boy, does that hold true so often. As the day starts to wind down, as a process starts to conclude, all as a, you know, conflict conversation starts to come to a resolution, uh, you know, all of a sudden something happens that opens up it all again.
(50:19) And being prepared for that moment and knowing that it's coming is is huge. Um, Anastasia Bukashi also was a professor of mine. um would every time she would bring a group full of a group of people together, anything she was facilitating, the first words out of her mouth would always be, "Hello, beautiful people.
(50:41) " And she would say it in like just this most authentic and like real and genuine way that I it would never sound the same like coming out of my mouth. It didn't sound the same when I just said it, but idea that you've got to kind of fall in love with and see the beauty in your clients even when they're really hard.
(50:58) So even that toxic leader, it's like still being able to fall in love with that person and go, I am here to help even though they're going to be difficult every step of the way. Like I just think that's really important in the work uh that we do. Um oh, De Laour, another professor of mine, also the board chair at NL, figure out what you want to know and then ask that.
(51:21) It came in the context of, you know, me and a group of fellow students trying to craft data collection and over complicating it. And sometimes it's just as simple as that is like what is it we need to know right now? And can we just ask that and go right down into it? Um, it's just a way of like for me helping me just go I'm over complicating this.
(51:46) They're over complicating this. Let's just make this easy and simple. Let's get into it. I will say this as a quote. I don't know where it came from. If it's in you, it's in the room. Or if it's in you, it's in the system. That acknowledgement like I see people in organizational context going like I yeah like I I really am not comfortable with this or this happened and it had this impact but like I don't want to th I don't know if I'm the right person to bring this into the conversation.
(52:14) And it's like no no no you are a part of this organizational system. If it is your experience, it is meaningful to this organization and empowering people to like bring kind of their whole selves into the room in service of the whole organization. Because if we enact a pattern of suppressing and ignoring and avoiding, then that's going to have major repercussions because it's going to just show up in our culture over and over and over again until it becomes like ritualized.
(52:43) Heather Berthood, again, another professor of mine at AU. A you had some amazing, brilliant professors. Figure out what's your and what's somebody else's. Just that idea that when we're a part of an organization or whether we're a consultant coming in to support, we've always got some baggage and going to show up and other people are going to have their baggage and it's going to show up.
(53:06) And figuring out what you need to take ownership of is so powerful. So like particularly as a consultant recognizing when this is my baggage. This isn't the clients and I don't need to bring this in right now. I need to do something with it and I need to do something with it quick so it doesn't impact what's happening here. Like those are just really moments and it's sometimes really powerful when you're like I'm holding this dynamic and I'm really giving myself to try to influence things here and the client is resisting and that is their resistance.
(53:36) This is not mine. So I don't need to hold this as as strongly as I'm holding it. Like those are just I think really powerful moments. So yeah, all good lessons. >> So what does your own learning and development look like? How do you keep yourself sharp and kind of evolving in your field? >> For me it is I do a lot of reading, a lot of podcast listening like uh I just love consuming and I stay connected to professional organizations.
(54:03) ODN uh here in New York City we have ODNY. um the Association for Conflict Resolution, things like that, so that I'm constantly tapping into my network. Um, I will say I sometimes have an aversion to like certification programs. Um, ones that cost a lot of money that is the benefit or like I don't know. I'm just very careful about where I invest and sometimes to my own dynaming from that program and I want to be credible where do I need to get that knowledge? So that's a lot of work and I have to put in on my own. I think the
(54:43) most important thing for me has been being in being a part of small groups and communities with fellow practitioners where we can unpack our experiences together and I can get genuine push back and feedback and challenge from people who I know and trust. I like that's you know including so I I'll throw like one of my closest friends is Julian Chender who's been a guest on this podcast.
(55:13) Julian is one of those people who absolutely you know I can talk about my work with and he'll challenge me you know like nobody will. Um and I think that's just so you know and I and I have lots of little groups like that that I try to be a part of. Um I think that's really meaningful and all practitioners should do that.
(55:33) >> And then people love a kind of recommendation. So, are there any resources, any books or podcasts or videos that you'd you'd highlight to others to go and follow up and and look at? >> The these aren't necessarily going to be so related to everything we've just talked about, but there's a couple things that I always recommend to people.
(55:51) Mindset by Carol Dwek, I think, is just a much must-read for every human being. and cultures of growth by Mary Murphy that builds on that work to really look at what happens in organizations when organizations uh cultivate and develop either a growth mindset or a fixed mindset. Um I think both of those books are extremely powerful for for conflict work and for organizational development for I think maybe the geeks out there.
(56:22) How uh how emotions are made by Lisa Felvin Barrett. um neuroscientist who is just challenging decades of thinking about how we process emotions and I think that yeah just there's strong linkages between what she's describing and the Chris Arus's latter of inference there um that idea that like we our filters influence the emotions that we feel.
(56:45) It's not just that our emotions are automatic. It's like how we think about and process what's happening really interplays with our emotions. That's just such a powerful concept. Um there's a really great book called DI difficult conversations and how to have them. Um it's a you know a couple decades old right now but I think it's a great primer for people who are interested in thinking about conflict and how to have different conversations and how to approach conflict differently.
(57:13) Um, I'll recommend for my OD friends and colleagues, Transformation Horizons, another OD podcast uh by Judy Oyadle and Sasha Farley is really great stuff. And finally, Horizons of Change, which is a Substack. Russ Gowaskkin was a professor of mine, an adviser of mine, but I just think is really putting out some incredible thought pieces about organizational development work and organizations generally and just he he's so articulate and just talks about things in in ways that nobody else does.
(57:49) Um, so yeah, those are my recommendations >> and there's so many references there as well. So the last question that we've got for you, one of the original missions of the podcast is inspire the next generation of organization development or conflict practitioners coming through as well. What advice would you give someone who's considering a career in this field? >> Yeah, I I it's a really tough it's a tough question I think because I think the field is is changing.
(58:15) You know, American University's program was dismantled a few years ago. you know, kind of university level like is OD still being taught in the same way is sort of an open question for me. And if you look at the marketplace, the way organizations, at least here in the United States, are talking about organizational development, it's like, oh, you don't understand this.
(58:36) You don't understand what the value of this is, you're describing talent development and recruitment. This is not organizational development. And so there's just something so foundational about influencing people systems, supporting people's systems, and helping organizational systems that are made up of and built by people take care of people like that that I think goes so missing.
(59:02) So I have these like big questions about like where is OD heading? Um but I think it is worth for younger practitioners to really consider what are you interested in? Are you interested in supporting kind of the business side of organizations international work? Is it around human psychology? Is it group dynamics? Like I think there's ways to kind of carve out a niche and to really find your footing in the field if you have a more specific idea of like what excites you about this work.
(59:32) The other piece I will share and this comes from Russ Gaskin because he was like my practicum adviser when I was in the program. He said, I I was sort of articulating uh my practicum work and I was like, you know, I just feel like I don't know what I'm doing and I'm gonna go, you know, I'll go do this project and then I'll come out of it and I'll feel like, okay, now I'm now I'm a consultant. Now I get it.
(59:55) And you know, and I I already had like a decade of conflict work under my belt and all two years of education in OD. and he said, "Rick, don't forgo your confidence until after you finish this consultation. Go in and do the com the consultation with all the confidence and the credibility that you already have.
(1:00:15) " I share that advice with, you know, not just new practitioners, but all practitioners. I mean, I I think that is so uh powerful. We carry such incredible lenses, such powerful lenses. We things that people in organizations don't see. We have such experience and knowledge to build on. So I think it's let's really embrace that confidence and go in and and do this with all the credibility and confidence we have.
(1:00:41) >> Brilliant. Well, Rick, we want to say a huge thank you. Want to say thank you for sharing the craft of what you do, the preparation that you've put in, the real generosity of the things that you've shared as well. Um, I'm going to rewind that lessons learned along the way because I think there's just so much wisdom in there as well.
(1:00:59) Danny, what are you taking away from today's conversation? >> I can't do it justice in a few bullet points, but I I love what you said at the outset about positioning yourself as a facilitator of conversations that need to happen. I think that's that's really powerful for me. The importance of helping our clients see what we see, kind of holding that as our role.
(1:01:16) I loved all the all of the the talk about conflict and kind of the practical ideas you gave us and also the the idea that people have to see that they you understand the impact of your actions um before they will even consider looking at the intent. So yeah, lot lots and lots to take away. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And there's so much in there.
(1:01:34) I really does deserve another listen to as well. Some of the things there some really lovely principles. I think there's a lot of things where we will take away, you know, some really good principles. 8020. Absolutely. This isn't chalk talk and talk stuff, is it? The power of paraphrasing. I think we need to take that away from the conversation and what that does and helps people feel like they have a voice and whatnot as well.
(1:01:54) But I also love the way that the the time you put into creating the setting where the work can be done as well. And sometimes that can be that can be missed along the way. There's so much done that can stack the odds of probability that this will work rather than just be another causation as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of those lessons that I have to learn over and over and over again and be like, "Oh, no.
(1:02:13) there's a reason why this is happening this way. Either, you know, it's happening in a way that's productive or not, but knowing that like, oh, I influence the moment that God is here. >> But it's true cuz the because the invitation is like, can you just get this work done? Like, we know what needs to be done. Put him in the room, do it.
(1:02:27) It's a strong invitation, isn't it? But we've got to decline it and say, "Look, this this for this to work, we have to be bold and confident in our methodology." >> Yeah. Yeah. And Right. And it takes a lot of courage to do that intervention that you just described. And um it takes a lot of grit because it's you know you're going to get push back like almost always.
(1:02:48) But um yeah, no setting the stage I think is is critical. So thank you both. This was such a delightful conversation and again I want to pick your brains all day but >> no this is all about you Rick. We want to say huge thank you. Thank you so much for getting up early in New York um and joining us today. Um, if you are watching this and you know someone who you think would benefit from Rick's experience of conflict, all of the different tips, maybe they're in conflict, maybe they were a bystander to conflict, maybe they're just taking
(1:03:14) their first steps on the way, then please do share this podcast with them as well because we have so many shares every single week as well. But we also, you know, feel free to contact Rick as well because I'm sure that um Rick uh will be able to support your organization in different ways as well. Rick, if people want to reach and follow your work, what's the best way for people to do that? >> Yeah, I'm almost invisible online.
(1:03:33) Uh, no. Uh, LinkedIn is probably the best way for people to find me. I will say that I I love talking to people about this work. I love finding out what work people are other, you know, other people are doing either related or, you know, even when people are like, I don't do this work, but I I think there's conflict in my organization and I'm I don't I'm not in a position to bring anyone in, but I just want to talk about it with somebody.
(1:03:58) I love being that person. Uh so, please feel free to find me on LinkedIn. Uh reach out to me and yeah, always happy to see where a conversation goes. >> Wonderful. Well, we're going to add your contact details in the show notes as well. Um, so please do feel free to reach out to Rick and if you've enjoyed the conversation, please do hit the like button and subscribe as well.
(1:04:17) This enables us to get brilliant guests like Rick to join us every week as well. And we also want to say a quick thank you to our mutual friend Julian who help facilitate this conversation otherwise it wouldn't have happened. So thank you so much to you Julian. But most of all a huge thank you to you Rick.
(1:04:32) You've been so generous, brilliantly insightful and I know that everyone's going to got a lot of value from it as well. So thank you. >> Thank you. This was absolute delight. >> Thank you. Heat. Heat.