Different Behavior Starts With a Different Experience

When podcaster Andrew Huberman recently interviewed Cesar Millan, it got me thinking about how people approach relating to their animals differently, and how most of the conversations around training methods often stop at the wrong question.

Instead, I invite you to ask yourself: What kind of experience is my animal having?

When we focus on helping animals feel safer, more comfortable, and more coordinated, something remarkable often happens. Movement changes. Emotions change. Behavior changes.

Discover why lasting change begins from the inside out.

Whether you live with a horse, a dog, or both, this one may shift how you approach your very next interaction with your animal.

Resources:

Grab your FREE video training to help your dog. 🐕 https://www.marydebono.com/lovedog 💥

Get Mary’s bestselling, award-winning book, “Grow Young with Your Dog,” for a super low price at: https://tinyurl.com/growyoungwithyourdog. Demonstration videos are included at no extra cost. ⬅️⬅️⬅️

💥Learn how the Feldenkrais MethodⓇ can help improve your seat, position, and balance on your horse! Free rider videos masterclass: https://www.marydebono.com/rider 💥

All information is for general educational purposes ONLY and does not constitute medical, veterinary, or training advice. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider if you, your horse, or dog are unwell or injured.  Always use caution when interacting with horses and dogs.

About the Host:

Mary Debono is a pioneer in animal and human wellness, blending her expertise as an international clinician, best-selling author, and certified Feldenkrais Method® practitioner. With over three decades of experience, Mary developed Debono Moves, a groundbreaking approach that enhances the performance, well-being, and partnership of animals and their humans.

Mary's innovative approach draws from the Feldenkrais Method®, tailored specifically for horse and dog enthusiasts.  Her methods have helped animals and humans:

• Improve athletic ability and performance
• Enhance confidence and reduce anxiety
• Reduce physical limitations and discomfort
• Deepen the human-animal bond

Mary's flagship online programs, "Move with Your Horse" and "Easier Movement, Happier Dogs," provide animal enthusiasts with an innovative approach that combines the concepts of Feldenkrais® with her signature hands-on work for horses and dogs (Debono Moves). Through this transformative approach, both people and their animal companions discover greater harmony, ease, and connection.

Transcript

Hi. I saw that very recently, Andrew Huberman of the very popular Huberman Lab podcast interviewed the very controversial dog trainer Cesar Millan. And it got me thinking about how differently people think about teaching and relating to animals. So this isn't a podcast just about dogs. So for all. All us horse people as well, we're going to be talking about horses and dogs and not training per se, but more about how we can help our animals feel better in body and mind and deepen our relationship with them at the same time.

So, but let's start for just a moment with training philosophies. You know, people there. There's all these discussions. You see them online, you see them all over, about positive reinforcement versus punishment or rewards versus corrections. And those are all very interesting conversations to be had. I will say right off the bat, I'm an advocate for positive reinforcement training, but I think the real question is deeper and more interesting than just, you know, rewards versus corrections.

The question we should be asking is, what kind of experience are we creating? Because the nervous system doesn't simply remember what happened, right? It remembers how the experience felt. That's a big difference. And those feelings shape what the nervous system predicts will happen next. Because after all, the nervous system is a prediction machine. It's always making predictions and then creating a strategy around that. So, you know, those predictions influence how the animal moves.

They influence emotions, they influence behavior, and they even influence relationships. Okay? So these are important things to remember. So. So let's start with. Let's start with behavior, right? So maybe. Maybe you have a horse that every time you go to tack up your horse, they start swishing their tail, and you start to do up the girth with a cinch. They become tense. Maybe they brace with their abdominal muscles.

That's what a lot of people think. They're holding their breath. But a lot of people will say to me, how do I change this behavior? How do I get my horse to stop being girthy? And now, as most of you know, if not all of you, that, of course, horse, it's very important that right away you rule out a medical reason, a physical reason, because maybe the saddle doesn't fit.

Maybe the horse has ulcers, Maybe they have back pain, right? They could have dental pain, and they're anticipating discomfort from the bridle. I mean, it could be many different things. So that's number one, right? You want to rule those kinds of things out. But then, you know, I ask myself, okay, why does this behavior make sense to the horse? The nervous system is obviously controlling the behavior. Why does that behavior make sense to the horse?

Because behavior is information, right? It's communication. It's how the horse is telling us that something isn't right, that they don't appreciate this. So obviously, like I just mentioned, the first step is you rule out any physical problems and then you think about, okay, you know, for example, we, we can think about how do we help the horse have an entirely different experience with being tacked up. And I, I have a whole approach that I use that I call tension free tacking up.

And I use my gentle hands on De Bono moves to during the saddling process. And I don't do that to distract the horse. I don't do it as a way to convince the horse to tolerate something that's unpleasant, but I do it as a way to genuinely improve the horse's experience. Because as the horse feels, the gentle, supportive movements of De Bono moves, right, they begin feeling more comfortable throughout their body.

It's a pleasant feeling. It's positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement doesn't just have to be about food. It's something that the animal, you know, feels positive about, right. That they respond to in a positive way that creates a positive feeling in them. Right? So there's more than that though, because as you're doing the hands on work, the horse's ribs might become softer, more responsive. The sternum can influence the back muscles.

You know, the sternum can start to move, the ribs can start to move in different ways so that the back muscles soften, the neck often softens. The horse stops tensing their abdominal muscles so they're no longer bracing and restricting. Basically, the horse begins feeling differently. Okay, this is huge because it doesn't just end with the, with the physical body, right? The horse isn't just learning to stand still, right.

They start to associate being saddled with comfort instead of discomfort, right? So now we're changing that association. We're linking comfort, ease, a pleasant feeling to being saddled, right? So the emotional experience changes, is not just the physical experience, the emotional experience changes. And both the physical and the emotions, they, they reinforce each other, right? You, you can't have an emotion without a physical scaffolding, right? So they're constantly influencing each other.

So the horse is feeling differently. And because they're feeling differently, they're able to respond differently. This is big. You know, it's one of the big tenets of my work is this idea that we're giving the animal, a horse, a dog, et cetera, the opportunity to feel differently, to change their habitual responses and to do it themselves. In other words, it's not imposed on them. We're not saying stand still.

I know you don't like this, but there's going to be a cookie at the end, right? We're actually changing how they feel about the experience. Again, I'm not in any way criticizing positive reinforcement, using food, it can be very, very valuable. I've used it all the time in my own life with my animals. But there's more than that. More than that, right? And now the other thing is when you're working with a horse in this way, and we're going to get to dogs in just a second.

So if you're here, just here for the dogs, hold on just a moment. But now you're starting your ride with a horse who feels, feels better in body and mind. They actually can move more freely. They're better equipped to carry you. Because I mentioned earlier about the ribs and the sternum and the neck and the back muscles softening. Well, now they can actually. They're more prepared to actually carry your weight in a healthy, comfortable way.

So riding can be enjoyable and healthy for both you and your horse. It's a completely different way to start out your ride than with a horse who's bracing. And, you know, that's so different than either training or restraining a horse to suppress girthy behaviors. We're helping the horse have a completely different experience of it. So now this same concept applies to dogs, right? Now just say, you know, a dog who, every time guests come over, the dog is barking and barking like crazy, right?

And again, people ask me, how do I stop this barking? How do I get my dog to stop barking like crazy whenever someone comes over? But what I say is, it's not about the barking, right? It's. Now, we know barking can be stressful, right? It can interrupt conversations. It can embarrass you. When guests come over, maybe your guests feel a little fearful, you know, of your dog barking at them.

So it's completely understandable that people want the barking to stop. But barking is information. It's communication. Maybe the dog is startled. Maybe the dog is over aroused, frustrated, concerned, unsure, right? They're. They're worried. They're maybe fearful. They're trying to alert the family that there's somebody, you know, new in the house, right? So if we only focus on suppressing the barking, we may never help the dog feel differently about visitors.

So instead of simply asking, how do I stop the barking? Ask, how can I help this dog feel safer and more comfortable when someone shows up at my door when a guest arrives that I've invited in. So as the dog's emotional response changes, the barking often changes too. And again, the goal is not simply to suppress the unwanted behavior, it's to change the experience that's driving the behavior.

Okay? And that's why, again, if we go back to the cinchy or girthy horse, my goal isn't to stop the horse from pinning their ears or swishing their tail or threatening to bite or kick, or for the dog to bark less. It's something much deeper. I want the animal to experience themselves differently. So again, it's not to simply change a behavior or even improve a movement. My intention is to give the animal the experience of feeling different, of feeling better than they normally do, and that this allows then the nervous system to have a different experience so they can choose different options.

Because when an animal experiences greater ease, comfort, coordination, the nervous system is receiving new information, so they experience themselves differently. They, you know, they realize that another way of being is available. They don't have to act in the habitual way. Now we've changed that. You can think of it of not just changing the external environment, but you're helping the animal, the horse or the dog experience a different internal environment that they feel differently in their body and mind.

So that's, you know, suddenly, you know, maybe move often movements become freer, right? They're better coordinated. They, they're moving in a healthier, balanced way. But also their emotional state has changed and so now their behaviors have changed to reflect that. So again, I'm never trying to make an animal do something, to move in a particular way, to behave in a certain particular way. I'm creating the conditions in which the nervous system can discover new possibilities.

To me, that's where lasting change begins. And that's why my approach to Bono moves, which is strongly informed by the Feldenkrais method that was created for humans, it looks very different than many hands on approaches. So let's take this one step further. You might think, well, you know, the title of this podcast is Easier Movement, Happier Life. So what does this have to do with movement? Well, it has everything to do with movement because again, movement and emotion are inseparable.

So if you think about yourself for a moment, if you're anxious, how does your body feel? If you're feeling confident, how does your body feel? How do you move when you're feeling confident? And how do you move when you're feeling anxious, tense, right. When you're in pain, you're going to move differently than when you're feeling great and confident, right? So if you feel safe, you're going to move very differently than if you're in a, in a state of anxiety.

So your physical sensations and your movement changes, right? That's the same thing is true for horses and dogs. Their, their movement reflects how their nervous system is being regulated at that moment. That's why when I'm working with a horse or a dog or a human, right, I'm not trying to change structures like muscles, joints or fascia. Instead, I'm communicating with the nervous system, right? So a lot of hands on approaches, they're, they're focusing on focus, finding a restriction in the body and trying to change it, right?

So they might stretch a tight area, they might rub out a tense area, they might push a joint further, force more flexibility somehow. But our approach is very different, right? Again, I'm not trying to make a movement happen. I'm trying to create conditions and experience in which a movement from freer movement can emerge naturally. It feels better to the animal than the old habitual way of moving. So that's the challenge, right?

It's how do you create those conditions? And this is what I teach in my horse and dog programs is how we create the conditions so the animals can feel better and that these new movement options can emerge. They can discard the old maladaptive habits of movement and behavior that are no longer serving them. But again, it comes from a change in the internal environment, right? In their internal sensations.

So one of the ways we do that is we start with what feels easy to the animal. So just say I'm working with a horse who doesn't bend easily to the left for whatever reason, right? They don't bend easily to the left. A lot of people right away try to quote, unquote, get the horse to bend more to the left. They'll use stronger aids or they'll, you know, if they're, if they're doing hands on work, they'll try to get some movement there.

I don't do that. I go to where movement already feels easy and then I build from that. Because what happens is when you start where movement feels easy and safe for the animal, this is true for all animals, horses, dogs, cats, humans, et cetera. That feeling of ease and safety can generalize throughout the nervous system. So already you start to have a change and the animal can let down their guard, right?

They can start to allow other sensations in. They're not restricting and compensating out of habit, right? So this is super, super important. And, for example, we recognize in. In the work that we do, we recognize that all the parts work, you know, in harmony. In other words, if we're talking about a horse bending, right, we're not. We're not thinking just to one little local area. We're thinking about the coordination of all the parts.

Same is true with the dogs. So say a dog is having difficulty with their hind legs. Now, some people would want to do things like, you know, manipulate them, stretch them, do something to that local area. Instead, I think, okay, why is this dog having difficulty with their hind legs? What is happening in the spine? What's happening in the rib cage? What is happening in the pelvis? What is happening in the neck?

You know, all the parts. And we start where movement feels safe, easy, and comfortable for the animal. And again, we help generalize that feeling. So now other parts, and we start to relate one part to the other so that the animals can start to recognize, like, oh, if this part moves, then this part feels more comfortable, right? If I let go here, then this part can function better.

Of course, they're not thinking this intellectually, right. But their nervous system is starting to put the pieces together in a functional way, okay? So it's very different. So, again, we start where we have the animal feel successful, safe, where things feel comfortable and easy, and then we build on that. We don't just stay stuck with what they're already doing. We expand it out, but we do it in a way that feels good and safe for the animal.

We do the same thing with ourselves when we're doing a Feldenkrais awareness through movement lesson, which I hope you're all doing those. They're fantastic. I teach them in all my programs, and we do them in a way where the movement. We keep the movement feeling easy and safe, and. And then our nervous system can expand on it. So then we can do larger movements, we can do faster movements, we can do more powerful movements.

But we start from a foundation of ease and safety, comfort. That's what we do with our. With our animals as well. And, you know, this is such a different way of relating to ourselves and to our animals than is out in the common culture, unfortunately. So this is a horrible. A whole new philosophy. You know, less is more, right? And less becomes more, if you will. Because again, when we start with where things feel successful, they feel easy, they feel safe, then we can gradually expand that out, and oftentimes the change happens very, very quickly.

I find with animal with non human animals in particular, because they don't have the intellectual baggage that oh, this means I can never do this or it's going to take X amount of months or years to recover or I'll never recover. They don't have that right. They're not thinking that way. They often can improve so much faster than us humans can, right? Because they don't have that. They haven't googled their symptoms.

So this is really, really powerful stuff. It's like we're helping the nervous system discover, discover a new way of being, right? And then it can become that nervous system, whether it belongs to a horse, a dog or a human. It can become that nervous system's preferred way of organizing itself. That it, it realizes that there's more options, more possibilities. And think about how different this is when you're relating to your animal in this way.

When you're doing the hands on work with your horse or with your dog or just holding that philosophy or working with yourself like through awareness, through movement in the Feldenkrais method, right? You're, it's such a different way of relating. It's, it's a much more connected way of relating. You know, for humans, we often talk about becoming more of who you are through the Feldenkrais method. I feel the same thing happens with our horses and our dogs.

I've seen this, I mean I've been doing this work professionally over 35 years and I've seen it over and over again that the horse or the dog becomes more of who they can be. And this can happen at any age and at any physical condition. They can become more confident, more sure, you know, express different behaviors. And to me it really embodies this whole concept of biological optimism that our nervous systems of any of us, whatever species we're referring to, that there's this drive to health and wholeness.

If we as humans, we can provide that environment for our horses and our dogs. Think of the possibilities that can emerge and the deep connection you build with your animal when you come from that place of respecting their intelligent nervous system, their autonomy, their agency, their ability to improve at any age and at any condition and to do it again in this respectful way and to approach our own improvement this way too.

Instead of pushing and pushing and straining and just getting better at straining, right? Instead, if we can treat ourselves with that respect, that our nervous system is capable of improving, that we can feel better in body and mind at any age, at any life stage, it's an amazing experience. And again, I don't want to give false hope and say if you have a 19 year old dog that has difficulties, that the dog is suddenly going to start acting like a puppy.

But what I found over and over again is that they can improve, they can feel more comfortable. So whatever stage they're in, they can feel more comfortable, they can feel safer, they can feel heard, they can feel listened to. Because that's what you're doing with this work. You're listening with your hands, you're asking questions with your hands and you're listening for the answers. And with yourself. When you're doing Feldenkrais awareness through movement lessons, you, you're listening to yourself.

You're finding how movement can feel easy. You're making little changes here and there and discovering the path of least resistance. And again then you can expand. It starts happening naturally. You become stronger, you know, you could be faster, all those good things. And the same is true for the animals, you know, so we keep building on this feeling of ease and safety. So what I'd like to leave you with is this idea that, you know, think about what experience you're creating with your animal.

So anytime, you know, maybe the next time you're interacting with your horse or your dog or even just sitting or doing something quietly by yourself, ask yourself, what experience am I creating? So I hope this gives you some food for thought. I hope this gives you maybe a different way of relating to your animals and to yourself. And if you found this useful at all, please share it with a friend, you know, a fellow animal lover.

I think they might appreciate it. And I just want to thank you so much for being here with me and I look forward to talking to you in the next episode. Bye for now.