Can Relationship Survive Cheating? With Relationship Therapist, Adele Ballantyne Part 1

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Intro: 0:03

Welcome to the heartbreak to happiness show with sarah davison if you're struggling with a breakup and you feel shocked angry betrayed devastated or sad and alone then this podcast is for you best selling author and award winning hosts Sara Savison shares how you too can get on with your life to heal grow and move from heartbreak to happiness here's your host Sara

Sara Davison: 0:32

Welcome back to the show and today my guest is adele ballantine now adele is a qualified psychotherapist and counsellor and has an ma in relationship therapy her work includes helping separating couples through the difficult process of divorce in a therapeutic way the main focus of her work is to enable the process of divorce to change in order that couples emerge with a more positive outlook limit the emotional damage caused to children by this process and most importantly co parent their children in the future so i'm super excited to welcome adele to the show welcome as well

Adele Ballantyne: 1:19

thank you s o it's lovely to be here thank you for inviting me

Sara Davison: 1:23

very welcome, now explain to my listeners just a little bit more about what you do

Adele Ballantyne: 1:30

okay so i work as a relationship therapist and counselor i've been working with individuals couples and families and in businesses for over a decade and basically my work really over the last 10 years has sort of shoehorned into working more with divorce lawyers and their clients and that started really because many of the clients that i work with as well as couples who want to grow new relationships together i work equally with the same amount of people who want to end their relationships so my work first started helping those people to do it their way because there's no hard and fast rule about how you do it and particularly couples with children wanted to try and make it as easy for themselves and more importantly for their children as possible so that's how i started working predominantly in the divorce area and and actually now it's probably about 80% of my work

Sara Davison: 2:38

wow okay and you cover such a wide range don't you take a whole family you'll do one to one tell us a bit about how that works

Adele Ballantyne: 2:45

so anybody who has a relationship issue can come and see somebody like me i work all day it's a huge umbrella really so grief depression and anxiety and of course families often we are hardwired for connection with others and obviously from the moment we're born moment we're being grown if you live in the uterus it's we are connecting with another human being and we were born and we come into families and we are heavily influenced by the behavior that we experienced growing up and that behavior influences in our own relationships when we grow up and some of those things are very conscious and some of the behavior is very unconscious and it's often the unconscious behavior that causes the trouble and so i can work with individuals if they are already separated or anywhere in the journey really if you're separating so if you're thinking about it you know come and see somebody like me because we can look at what went wrong why it went wrong which makes the next bit much easier because when we understand the why it gets rid of quite a lot of the problems that i found so i see people on their own as individuals i see them as couples and indeed i can go on to see them as families and the work is very unique to each person because we are all unique we all come with different stuff so certainly quite often our work looking at family trees when i'm working with a couple who are breaking down their relationship because quite often there are patterns going way way back to parents to grandparents or great grandparents even so it's not uncommon for a couple to go through a divorce when their children reach the age when their parents divorced or when their grandparents divorced steve and they're often subliminal messages that come down through families you know men always leave you you know a man will never look after you because of history and that can really affect how you behave in a couple relationship so it's not uncommon even sometimes when couples have decided to separate when they come to see me actually going through the sessions sometimes they don't sometimes they realize that actually what they've got is quite good and that it's worth preserving and growing something that works better for them so lots of people think that as relationship therapist and what i do is mend people and get them better you know i'm not a fixer i'm an unstick i help people when they get stuck so some people want to grow new relationship together a lot of people don't and i help them with what wherever they want to go

Sara Davison: 5:46

i think yeah that's great isn't it when you can get people together and shine a light on the unconscious behaviors and the patterns maybe they're running they're not even aware of just because they learned it from maybe watching their parents or like you said even coming down through the generations at that point then they have the choice to take their control back and either continue it or do something different that's very interesting point and i think given that we're in the middle of a pandemic right now here in the uk i know we have listeners around the world and this has affected seo it's been a global challenge that the rise in breakups and the increase in divorce rates and in the uk that's reportedly 122% the divorce rate right now compared to last year so is it that we're walking away too quickly. Do you see that in your clinic that we're rushing into ditching the relationship and getting out do you see that

Adele Ballantyne: 6:42

i think sometimes it depends on the age of the couple to be honest and this is something that i noticed certainly around before the pandemic but even more so now i think that we live in a society where the media portrays what true love is what being in a partnership is and you know that we have to be soulmates that we have to tick each other's boxes that if our partner is not fulfilling our absolute every need and making a super happy then they're not right for us so we need to find somebody else and what i know through the work that i've done you know is that relationships aren't about that if you were to ask me and lots of people do down what makes a really good relationship i would say it's this that you are a team who can sit and talk about anything even the most uncomfortable stuff approaching a conversation with your partner knowing that it might upset them so preparing the ground first like i need to talk to you about something that's bothering me i think you might not like it it might upset you that's not my intention but i need to talk about it so to be able to then talk clearly with each other communicate in a really effective way where you both understand exactly what you mean by what you're saying and then you sit together in that discomfort and work out what you're going to do about it and it's those relationships the managing of the differences you know we attract the opposite that old adage of opposites attract is true you know it's got its feet firmly based in relationship psychology we go for the opposite because we seek to make ourselves whole as individuals so quite often if we come from a family where there was nurture if we were upset or the boyfriend ditched us you know we'd have a parent or a carer there who would say come on have a cup of tea tell me about it come on it'll be all right you know in this that lovely nurture lots of conversation chances are you will pick somebody who comes from a family who is completely opposite to that so the brushes under the carpet we don't talk about anything until all go away you know we just have silence for a few days and then it's all sorted out but with no resolution so we tend to pick those opposites and that's okay that's absolutely fine as long as we learn to manage the difference and managing those differences comes with sitting in those uncomfortable moments and having those courageous conversations together all the flowers the date nights the chocolates that this that near that that's the easy stuff that's the icing on the cake the actual cake structure you know and we focus so much on weddings now don't miss the wedding is the big win we don't really talk about the marriage or about the partnership or being in a committed relationship we don't talk About that it's about the day. But it's like a wedding cake. That bottom layer needs to be firm. That's the foundation. You know, all the other bits are the icing the flowers, the, you know, the butter, cream, whatever. So it's about that.

Sara Davison: 10:16

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I think teamwork is really important as well as trusts, because I think you have to have that level of trust to be able to sit down with someone and be vulnerable, which is brave and alpha down and say, Look, you know, I want to communicate this with you and for your partner to take that in a way that isn't then becoming an aggressive or blame situation, I guess, you know, when relationship trust breaks down. So for example, if there's infidelity in a relationship that can cause obvious issues, do you think you can recover from infidelity?

Adele Ballantyne: 10:54

I think sometimes, sometimes you can. Sometimes you absolutely can't. Some of it depends on how your relationship was when the infidelity happens, because infidelity doesn't always happen. Because somebody wants to leave a marriage. Sometimes infidelity happens because something is not okay. Within that marriage. Sometimes infidelity happens when things are okay within the marriage, but the person who is seeking that infidelity is displaying a part of themselves, that they feel that they cannot show, they're part of their current partner. So it's a bit like fantasy world where they can just go and be that other side of themselves that perhaps have suppressed because they don't know how their current partner will take that. And that sounds really, really complicated. But, you know, for some, they can call it back for others, absolutely not. And I've set I've got a couple at the moment, I've been working with them for a couple of years on and off. And there have been times certainly in the early days, when I saw know that it's not going to happen, but they both want to try. That was the difference. They've been together a long time. And I think that's additions as well, if you've had a relationship where you've been together for such a long time, maybe a lot of that has been really, really good. And maybe it's just towards the last few years where things have gone awry. And in those instances, sometimes it's worth thinking, Well, we've, we've had all of this That was good. We're human beings at the end of the day, we're not perfect, we get stuff wrong. And it's okay to get stuff wrong. As long as what we do next, is transformational. It defines us, yes, we've done wrong, but it's what we do next, that defines us as a human being, and certainly within a relationship as a partner. It's what we do next.

Sara Davison: 12:56

Now, see, I love that what we do next is what defines us? Absolutely, I can say it better myself. So can it work, then if one of you wants to get it back on track, and the other one maybe isn't as interested or isn't open to communicating about it or discussing it?

Adele Ballantyne: 13:14

In my experience, no, unless the couple makes an active choice, they're just going to have a friendship, and that will be good enough. And many people say we need to stay for the children, I would say not always because children pick up, you know, very, they learned by nonverbal communication. If you are not in it as a couple, if you are not connected, if you're not really happy together, your children will assimilate that. And just remember, we are training the next lot of adults, the next lot of couples, you know, in our children, and they're learning from us all of the time, they're learning about what a relationship is what mums do what dads do, what mums and dads do together. And and they pick it up very quickly. So I would say don't always say let's stay to the children because that's not always healthy. Mostly if one person wants to mend it, and the other doesn't. If the other person has emotionally left, then in my experience they can try and certainly couples I've had you've tried that then come back later and said, We just can't it just isn't working.

Sara Davison: 14:28

I think that's interesting, because if you and I had a client actually you came to visit his wife had given him an ultimatum that she was actually going to leave once the kids went off to universities that was about three, four months away. And she wasn't willing to go to couples therapy with him. She was done. And so he came to see me because I don't work with couples. So he came to see me and said, you know what can I do? So we put a plan together for him to you know, do his best to save the relationship. Because I'm a big believer of trying everything you can, so you leave with no regrets. Because if you if you walk away without doing your best, and even if you do your best, maybe you find that doing your best is just not sustainable for you. And you don't like all the compromises or even sacrifices you have to make to maintain it. But he came away and with an action plan, and started that, and I very quickly was, it was so lovely to see that, because he had stepped up, his wife then began to pass out. So I guess in that situation, if that happens, then then they went to couples therapy, and they're still together now. So that's a lovely story. I guess it doesn't always happen that way. But sometimes, you stepping up and making those changes can encourage your partner, right.

Adele Ballantyne: 15:46

And it could be absolutely sorry. And I think that, you know, it could be that his partner had been trying for a long time to help him stack up. And it had fallen on deaf ears that happens such a lot. And, you know, we get worn out by that when we've been trying and trying and trying and it changes for a bit and then it goes back to how it was. And I really wish people would seek help. sooner. Many people come see me as a last ditch attempt to try and salvage something, I would say, you know, come as soon as you start to experience any difficulties, you get to fake, you know, and you can feel it and you think, gosh, that that doesn't feel very good. You know, I'm gonna leave, I'm gonna take some painkillers, if it gets better. 24 hours, no, it's getting worse, I'm gonna go to the dentist, and you see your dentist and then he'll she he will fix it. And you've kept the tooth, the tooth stays healthy. If you left it and left it and left it, you'll be in a lot of pain and the tooth crumbles way therapists coaches, you know, we're here to help, we're here to say, don't come when it's at its absolute end come sooner. I've had couples come to see me week after they got married. You know, I've had people come before they get married. Look, we just want to get a few things sorted, you know, because we want to make this as good as we can. Excellent. I love that. Because we can talk about the main things that potentially for them as a couple are, are going to be difficult, extended family being one of them, you know, sons who perhaps have quite domineering mums, and who are struggling to let that son move away and form a couple relationship which takes priority over his former relationship with that month. So I think if people could come sooner, that would be so so helpful, because like your clients, so are, you know, he realized that it was about to end. So it became critical to him. It would be lovely if it became more important sooner.

Sara Davison: 18:02

Well, that's very perceptive, because actually, that's exactly what happened. Adele, she phoned me up, she asked if she could speak to me. And she said, I don't know how you've done it. Because I've been asking him to do these things. For so long that actually I was at my wit's end. But somehow, the way you communicated it, Jim has actually gone in, and he's now doing these things. So, you know, so it was actually exactly that. So yeah, spot on. So those of my listeners listening right now who are thinking, Well, my relationship is on the rocks. And I know for some of my clients at the moment, their relationship would most certainly have lasted the test of time if it hadn't been for COVID. And being forced together for that amount of time because it, it does change the dynamic if you're used to leading quite independent lives, and now you can't that can shift the dynamic, which then can have a negative impact on it. So what are your top tips for improving your relationship if you think your relationship is heading for, you know, a breakup?

Adele Ballantyne: 19:01

Okay, I would say the first thing is communication. It's absolutely key. We have many conversations throughout the course of the day. And certainly since the pandemic, when we've all been living very unusually, we're not used to spending this much time together. Weekends are about the longest or two weeks holiday and the rest of the time. We're away in the home in the evening or however your life works. So communication is really important. We have many conversations, but we don't always know what we're talking about. So communicating in a clear way, so that we are fully understanding what our partner is saying to us and what that means for them. That's important. We come with lots of assumptions and expectations when we form a partnership with somebody and they are based firmly on our own experiences growing up. So if if you have a client who says, All I wanted was support, you know, my family member died, I was really lost. I just needed some support, and you didn't give me any support. I hear that a lot. So I asked them, Well, what does support look like? What was it that you wanted? In that moment? You know, quite often it's something like just some space a hug. Just, you know, are you okay? Is there anything I can do to help you now and quite often, what I hear from the other partner is that I emptied the dishwasher, I, I did the food shopping, I cooked every night, I took the kids off your hand, you know. And so it was mal aligned, their ideas of support were different. And so whenever your ideas about love, support, Mum, what mums do what dads do, all of those that we have assumptions and expectations about those things. So while ever, we don't know what they are in each other, there's a very good chance we're going to get those wrong. That's a majority of the stuff that goes on. Is that mal alignment of our ideas about how we should be supported how we shouldn't be loved? So I think understanding what we mean by words is really, really important. It sounds laborious. Well, we've got to do we have to have a conversation about support? Well, yeah, because it's no good. Just saying you should know what that look means. Watch. No, no, nothing. Nothing's the problem. Nothing's wrong with me. Why are you asking if anything's wrong with me? Evidently Something wrong? Why aren't you sharing that? Yes, there is something wrong, being brave, being brave in your relationship to be able, again, it's back to those uncomfortable conversations, being able to say, Do you know when that happened, it made me feel like this. And I'm really upset about that. Or I'm really angry when you did that. I wasn't expecting that. And it hurt me. Because in that moment, when you profess What's wrong, your partner has an opportunity to be brave, and to stand up and say, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hurt you. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make you feel like that. If we can have those conversations together. It's vital. not judging in the moment, you know, having the idea that the person who does something, even if it's you stand them thing. Earth made them do that what on earth made them think that that would be something I liked, but not to judge in the moment, but to think, well, they love me. So it's may be coming with best intentions, but it's just not come out, right? So not judging in the moment say, oh, gosh, that was interesting. I wasn't expecting that. And what made you do that it wasn't quite right for me. We're not telepathic, we are not mind reader's, we cannot know what is in our heads and less we empty our heads to each other, in a, in an atmosphere of no blame of non judgment and feeling that our partners lovers so that it's done with best intention. When learning a relationship is an evolutionary process, we get together, and it continues to move and change as life moves and changes with us. If we are wanting to be right back as to how we were when we first met, that's never going to happen.

Sara Davison: 23:43

I'm sure people are listening that, gosh, this is amazing. But I just don't know how to approach my partner to have that initial conversation, maybe it's a bit of a change of tack for you wouldn't normally have done it, maybe you're sort of going at each other and the relationships are so frayed at the moment, like you're nervous of the response you're going to get from your partner just to to to create that safe space. How do you suggest that people you know, broach that topic with their partner and set that conversation up that initial discussion,

Adele Ballantyne: 24:15

I think you have to set the scene, I think it's choosing a time that is available to you. It's been very hard for a lot of couples to have important conversations during the pandemic because the kids have been around and that makes it really difficult. But in non pandemic times, what I would say is, make it a priority, make it important and help your partner to understand that you need to talk about something important. So a conversation might go something like you know, I've noticed that over the last month so you know years, we've we've not been together like we used to be and I'm just wondering, you know what's going on. I would really really like to have an opportunity In a very calm way not to be shouting, not to be blaming, but just to be able to sit together and talk about this, because I don't know what will happen to us if this continues. And it would be lovely to be able to sit down and make some time to talk about it. And then make that time, you know, and it might be the first time you broach that subject Your pardon my God, I haven't got time for this. So then, you know, okay, so if you haven't got time now, would you like some time is our relationship important? I know it's scary. You say what it is, make that elephant in the room, become not an elephant in the room, make it, you know, go away and say, Look, let's put the elephant somewhere else. And let's put what matters on the table. Sometimes writing things down is quite helpful. I had a couple once who wrote letters to each other, because they found that first conversation really difficult to set together and have that so so they wrote a letter to each other. And that was really nice, actually, because they learned so much. So I didn't know you felt like that. I didn't know that that annoyed you so much. And so they could then they swapped, read had time to assimilate the information. And then they they had a conversation that went really, really well. It's about being brave, being brave to have that conversation. And to not one of the easiest ways to not put somebody into a defensive mood, when you're having a conversation is always to use a nice statement. So own your own feelings. Particularly if we've been in a relationship for a long time. We tend to use the way we always do this, we always do that. We think this, we think that the we probably don't. So it's important that we speak for ourselves. First and foremost, I think, I feel I'm upset at the moment. I'm worried. I'm worried about us at the moment, I'm noticing that we you know, we don't laugh anymore together. So many couples don't have fun anymore. Now, that's one of the questions I asked him, What do you do for fun? Just YouTube, not with the family, not with anybody else? What do you do? Often like a tumbleweed moment of silence? Yeah, it's

Sara Davison: 27:23

amazing how that happens. I think that's, that's really good advice at all. Because, you know, creating that safe space will enable you potentially to make some good progress. And I guess it's about being vulnerable yourself and putting yourself out there to ask knowing that you may well get rejected, I guess we do have to carry out that that it has to be safe to do so this is not an approach that works in abusive relationships, toxic relationships?

Adele Ballantyne: 27:48

No, definitely not. Definitely not. And I think you know, when you've been in a relationship where you've been rejected quite a few times anyway, especially around areas of intimacy, because what can happen is, if couples stop having sex together, then what happens is, the other tactile stuff tends to go, because their bear suddenly becomes a lot of pressure, you know, there's worry that holding hands or a kiss will lead to sex. And if they're not wanting sex at the moment, they stop kissing and holding hands, because that means that there's no possibility of getting there. So we create lots of little behaviors like that feedback loops, if you like, for every action, there is a reaction, and whether that's a verbal action and reaction or whether it's nonverbal. It's still going on, and we build up these little feedback loops of behavior. And that's why when we argue a lot, we get so well practiced at it, because we've done it so many times before, you say that, I say that you say that, I say that. And bang, we're in an argument. And it can be over anything. That's pots, wooden spoons, dishwashers, whatever. But we learn how to do that. And we only have to change one thing out of that feedback loop to make it different. And sometimes changing that one thing might mean, not saying anything, where you normally would say something. listening, and asking questions, rather than making statements can change the whole dynamic.

Sara Davison: 29:25

Not really good to, I think, yeah, that that is interesting, because when you're going through a divorce, and it can be high conflict at times, and there's children involved, you know, really being able to sort of hold back on the arguments in front of the kids to you know, protect them from what's going on. So you at least have a chance to resolve it without their involvement is really important.