Join me for a conversation with Abby, a devoted volunteer for our podcast and member of our community. We dive into the challenging waters of unlearning body shame, dismantling beliefs around our bodies and reclaiming sexual health education. Abby shares her experiences of how the pandemic era has shaped new perspectives on bodily autonomy and navigating consent. Learn more about what consent is, what it isn't and how to cultivate discussions around it.
More on this topic:
Dating Your Body
Learning to LIsten to Your Body
Coming Home to Yourself
Evolving Out of Purity Culture
Less Shame - More Sex Ed
Why Sex Ed Really Matters
Reclaim Your Arousal Mindset
My Letter to Young Woman
Exploring Your Perspective of Pleasure
10 Ways to Be Sexual Without Masturbating
JOIN my Newsletter Community.
FOLLOW on Instagram.
VISIT my Website.
Join me for a conversation with Abby, a devoted volunteer for our podcast and member of our community. We dive into the challenging waters of unlearning body shame, dismantling beliefs around our bodies and reclaiming sexual health education. Abby shares her experiences of how the pandemic era has shaped new perspectives on bodily autonomy and navigating consent. Learn more about what consent is, what it isn't and how to cultivate discussions around it.
More on this topic:
Dating Your Body
Learning to LIsten to Your Body
Coming Home to Yourself
Evolving Out of Purity Culture
Less Shame - More Sex Ed
Why Sex Ed Really Matters
Reclaim Your Arousal Mindset
My Letter to Young Woman
Exploring Your Perspective of Pleasure
10 Ways to Be Sexual Without Masturbating
JOIN my Newsletter Community.
FOLLOW on Instagram.
VISIT my Website.
Definitely hard, as you're starting to just grow up and then you hit puberty and suddenly it's you versus your body.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Permission for Pleasure. I'm Cindy Sharkey, your host. I'm delighted you're joining me for this episode. Occasionally, I get the privilege of having a conversation with someone within our community where they share their story and we explore what they've heard about sexuality bodies, pleasure. That's what our conversation is today. I have the delight of introducing you to someone I've known her whole life, since the day she was born. Her name is Abby and she volunteers her time to the podcast every month because she's passionate, like I am, about people having access to quality and comprehensive sexual health education. I am so grateful for her and her willingness to give her time and her energy and to come on the podcast and share a discussion with me. So, abby, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I usually ask most guests when they come on about their own sexual health education. Growing up, you know what they experienced or didn't experience. I wonder how that was for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd say not extensive, Certainly minimal. I grew up very religious, so that had some impact on my sexual education as well.
Speaker 2:Yes, Were you in a home where you talked about bodies, puberty bodies, changing normal body parts, that kind of thing, or was it a little quieter around that?
Speaker 1:Much quieter, I think just not a lot of encouragement, of questions, yeah, a lot of body shame, a lot of keep that hidden into yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of us grew up that way, with that kind of messaging. We've talked about that before you and I and so many young people, especially girls, don't grow up with a lot of permission to understand their bodies and explore their bodies and acknowledge being a normal sexual being as they're growing and changing. I think that's a common narrative that many people experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's definitely hard, as you're starting to just grow up and then you hit puberty and suddenly it's you versus your body. I think the community I grew up in put a lot of pressure on young girls from, I think, an inappropriately young age, to cover and hide, and if you have too much of something somewhere, then your body is bad or shameful. And so there's this element of I'm a child and I have freedom to run and play, and then suddenly your body starts changing and somehow it's bad. There's a lot of like a sudden switch that happens, where now, as your body changes, the natural reaction is then to blame your body, like how could you betray me? Now I have to wear uncomfortable clothes, now I have to be careful of how I play, and I'm now being taught to be self conscious of how I'm seen and who's seeing me.
Speaker 2:Hmm, wow, that message is powerful. It has little tendrils that just make their way into our minds, our bodies ourselves, and it's very difficult to untangle. Have you found that to be so?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's taken me a lot of time and effort and therapy and just energy to slowly unravel that mindset and just learning to love my body and see that my body is part of me. It helps me like look how far it brought me, look what I can do because of it. And to be on the same team again is really hard because for so long it was like enemy number one.
Speaker 2:Did you say your body against you or your enemy? Yeah, and that causes a lot of shame, I think, for those of us who grew up with that and a lot of shutting down around our bodies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it definitely a lot of work good work, but definitely a lot of work to get to that place of just love for your own self.
Speaker 2:And appreciating our bodies, too, for what they are and, like you say, what they do for us. You and I've had a lot of discussion around this, so I'm on the journey with you and I think so many of us are, and it's a continual journey because the messages are ingrained and deeply embedded. Talk about that on this show quite a bit, but I think that if someone's listening and you haven't listened to the episodes with Aurora or Hillary McBride, I'll reference those in the show notes, because we're having that kind of conversation here on the podcast. I have found that how we feel about our bodies for my own self and for all the women I meet with and speak with that really really plays into our sexuality and the development of our sexual ethic and how we feel about ourselves sexually and our ability to embrace that piece of us. It's all connected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting. One other thing you and I have talked a lot about is consent, and I think Just lead into that is so clear for me. In you have to be on the same page of your body, you have to be on the same team, like consent isn't only from your mind, it's like your whole being and body needs to give consent, and so I think it's so important when you know someone's like hi, can I have a hug? And your body is Internally screaming no, I don't want to be touched, but you're like yeah, sure, like there's an element of you not listening to yourself and like there's a level as I learn to be one, being my body, my mind and be on the same team. There's a lot of that in that. Moving into consent, it just means am I consenting to myself? Is this what I want? And then what am I gonna verbally say to someone else?
Speaker 2:Yes, and you and I've talked about how the pandemic sort of shifted that for a lot of people. Let's talk about that because I think sometimes I'll bring that up as I visit with women and the light bulb goes on like, oh, remember when we were talking about that Abby, about wearing masks or not wearing masks, or you know, do you want to hug or do you not?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it was a fascinating moment in Culture to watch as the whole world practiced consent together. Hopefully and definitely having times are reached out to friends hey, I would love to see you. These are my boundaries, and Just learning to practice a conversation where you're like hi, I'd love to see you. I am not seeing people indoors, I'm seeing someone outdoors. I'd prefer not to give you a hug, but know that I want to, and just being able to say some things of this is when my boundaries are.
Speaker 1:Where are yours? Is this something you're comfortable with? And then, as time goes on, maybe you're like hi, would you like to come over into my home? These are the people I have or haven't seen. These are the kinds of actions I am doing and I'm not doing, and it's wild to then turn to Like this podcast, where then we're talking specifically and with sex education, and you're like hi, these are the people I have or haven't seen. Who have you seen? I mean, there's just so many conversations. I mean, it's humorous. There's some very clear Elements where you're watching some like uncles and people that you're like hi, I would not like a hug, I would like to sit outside. Oh, I don't think you've learned this before.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. Yeah, I do think that there was a lot of practice for the first time that people Learned how to talk out loud in that way and had to, hopefully and that translates into, like you said, all the areas of our lives, and I just think it's good to call that out and remind people that, hey, you got a little practice with that during the pandemic of recognizing what your boundaries were, communicating and also Hearing other people's and honoring those. So translate that now into Life and, as you continue to teach your kids or, you know, your loved ones or yourself, keep doing those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially with kids. I know this is something you've talked about before, but I love doing to my cousins, my nieces or nephews, like, hi, can I give you a hug? Would you prefer a fist bump? I like to give options and say, of course I would love to hug you, but I need to make it clear to you that there is another option and you do not have to give me a hug Just because I've said I would love to give you a hug.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm learning bodily autonomy and that your body belongs to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do.
Speaker 2:I think it starts from such a young age and in many ways you know I didn't grow up with that kind of message mm-hmm and it takes some learning to get to the point of feeling like my body belongs to me and I have bodily autonomy and I think when we teach kids early that really serves them moving forward in their lives. How do you see the people in your circle, the 20-somethings navigating consent these days?
Speaker 1:Oh, oh, that is an interesting question. Some people are better at it than others. I think it's very similar to the conversation with COVID and just generally it's a lot of practice. It's practicing setting a boundary up front and saying things. It's interesting especially now as dating is more and more on dating app, ways to navigate it and kind of things that people bring up sooner or bring up later, I don't know. Just saying like this is what I am looking for, this is what I'm not looking for, what about you?
Speaker 2:and just kind of drawing lines and again practicing setting the same boundaries and you know I've talked about Some of these elements of consent as we've worked on the podcast and it gives me a little opportunity here to bring that up, of reminding people that you know informed consent Means yes to one thing discussed and Decided upon. It's not implicit consent to do anything else or take things further. For example, agreeing or even initiating making out with someone or kissing someone does not mean Everything else is consented to. Every step. With physical connection and Especially sexual connection, consent is revisited. I think what a lot of young people hear, abby, is that One thing leads to another. Yes meaning if you get in a situation you have this misguided mantra in your head from people saying well, if you do this, then this Leads to this and one thing does not lead to another. You consent along the way.
Speaker 1:I would say, like my generation of young people out there, dating, especially on apps, a lot of people have kind of an Expectation of, well, that's how things just work. That, I think, is misguided. I Feel very strongly that, like you, consent is constantly received and constantly given, and I do. I think that it's interesting to see there are ways to sort of test people on things. I've definitely Learned, kind of growing up with having my own trauma and my own problems of things, that I've learned Ways that if I say no to something small and you don't respond well, then that's gonna be a deal breaker. If I kind of change a plan or go, you know I don't really want to do this anymore. I'm kind of tired. You know this is a nice walk but it's late, I'm kind of done and pull some of those things out on just an early date or something a very low Stake in the game situation and if how someone responds in every moment means a lot to me for a future moment.
Speaker 2:That's a good word. That is a good word like reminding ourselves and then practicing early, especially on these apps, with people to get a feel for, like you're saying, like how they respond to Consent. I mean consent includes the right to revoke your yes at any time, just like you're demonstrating there. So when you've agreed and in the middle of an encounter, you know If I'm gonna jump over to like a sexual encounter say, you were talking about going on a walk. But if something's painful or emotionally triggering or makes you uncomfortable, and even if you initially said yes, you wanted to participate, you have the right to change your yes to a no. Yeah, that's very important. And you're saying well, test that out early. If you're going on a walk with someone and you change your mind, then how is that stop or that change Received? Do you get a green flag response or do you get a red flag, as everyone talks about response?
Speaker 1:I went on a date with someone and I wanted to go to this one restaurant and he kind of was like, and wanted to go to this other one, and he wasn't hearing me and what I was saying and in my expectations, and me like, oh well, I don't really know you, I don't want to get in your car with you and drive somewhere else, and that was a deal breaker for me. I was like, okay, well, you weren't respecting my boundaries. This is the moment where I don't know you that well. I don't really feel comfortable. We're at this restaurant and I'm really excited to eat here.
Speaker 1:So you being so tunnel visioned and your own focus for where you wanted to eat and what you thought we would do was a deal breaker to me. And that was a very small situation where I was like, I know this isn't super meaningful to a lot of people, but in this moment you didn't hear me and you weren't listening. Yay, you, I know it took a lot, it was not easy. It doesn't always work that way. Sometimes you find yourself going to another restaurant and like, why am I in this car with you? I don't know you, and then having grace for yourself there. But yeah, just always trying to listen to my body when I'm hearing oh yeah, we're not comfortable, okay.
Speaker 2:That's an important point. I can't help but zero in on that, because I do think that we're so trained like we were talking about earlier, to not listen to our bodies, not be embodied, paying attention. And so then, when our body gives us signals like hey, hey, I'm tapping myself on the shoulder, like I have that feeling in my gut I'm not good here, and when we don't listen to that and then respond, we're really devaluing our communication within ourselves. And it takes practice, like you're saying, of course, like let's have grace for ourselves as we recognize and say next time I'm gonna pay attention to that. That tells me.
Speaker 2:No, I do this in parenting workshops with parents saying, hey, teach your kids this uh-oh feeling that their body tells them. Do you know what I'm saying when I say that, abby, mm-hmm, that uncomfortable feeling of I don't feel safe or something about this doesn't feel right, and that is a signal to yourself. Pay attention, what's happening here? Do I wanna exit? You know, in giving kids strategy. So then when they're older, you know, and in their 20s or you know your age, then they have practice with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's just constant listening and constant practice, and life's a learning journey.
Speaker 2:That is for sure for all of us. Let's circle back a little bit. As we're talking about consent, you know, it's really causing me to think about when we're talking about our bodies, and we don't have a lot of education and conversation about our bodies when we're growing up, right, the impact of that messaging, what I see is that women especially don't have a lot of bodily autonomy and understanding of their own bodies, their own body parts, how they work. I'm kind of pivoting here because when I started thinking about consent, it all goes together. Yes, I just feel like this messaging, or lack of messaging what happens is it removes room for accurate education and knowledge and what it results in is fear. You know, it blocks young people from asking their questions, from getting them answered. What happens is girls have very little foundation upon which to determine their own sexual ethic as they mature into young adulthood.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it goes back so much to that kind of war with your own body as your body starts changing. I think that there's a lot of messaging around that time of covering your body and hide your body. I grew up with a lot of purity conversations and modesty conversations and it's really interesting because I grew up being told that my body was bad. Whether that was the text or the subtext, that's what I was hearing. Your body is bad, you need to cover your body. The men around you aren't expected to control themselves, so you need to be the one in control. You need to cover your body. It's interesting as an adult to look back and be like wait, there were times where I feel like I was going over to a family member's house or just situations where being told well, you probably shouldn't wear that.
Speaker 1:Looking back, there's just so many levels of problems with the things that I was internalizing and hearing and covering my body and I think I've told you this one before. But I had a high school teacher who I knew would consciously turn the air up when the weather got good. He would keep his class really cold so that the girls would wear more clothing. I mean, I just have so many concerns with the ways that I was subtext told men can't control themselves, you're unsafe, your body is bad and cover it.
Speaker 1:And then, as an adult, trying to dismantle, thinking men aren't safe, men can't control themselves, I have to be in control, but also, at the same time, being told that that mindset is bad. And how dare I think men are bad? When, at the same time, I'm like, oh well, this is actually all I've been taught. Yeah, I mean, it's wild to think that when you're 10 or 11, you're putting on more clothing, even though you're thinking about the cute boy who's like 10 or 11, that you're going to see and you're like, oh, I want to dress cute, but then, oh, all these parents are going to be there. And now I'm uncomfortable with the idea of being seen by an adult when I'm a child, and this should not be a thought that I'm concerned with.
Speaker 2:Hmm, just calling that out. And I think it's important because I sometimes find when I meet with women they haven't really thought through all those messages and then how it actually affected them. And we talked about this with a couple episodes with Sheila Gregoire and also with Britt Bean Sperin on purity culture, a more extensive conversation around those messages. So those are also on the podcast. I'll reference those, but just you verbalizing specifics around that is helpful for people to hear because if we can think back, like you have taken time to do, and then unravel some of that, then it serves us with a lot more freedom. Moving forward, we figure out, you know, the lines we no longer want to color inside because they don't serve us anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's interesting now because I constantly have moments where times will come up and I look back and go, oh, that isn't how I would want the world around me to be. Or times where I hear myself say internally something and go, huh, yeah, I don't believe that anymore. I don't agree with that thought I had. That is not serving me anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I do think the other piece to this is this idea around you know, not being allowed to see yourself as sexual or Be a sexual, normal sexual being, or understand how your body functions. You know I'll get on my soapbox about this, but I feel it's so important for people to have a sexual relationship with themselves first and before they decide, or if ever decide, to enter in a sexual relationship with someone else. And some of that is about Understanding your own body and sexuality and how your body works to be able to give an informed consent or an enthusiastic yes. As we tie into this consent piece too, I just think there's this misled idea to a lot of women, a lot of girls growing up as we let's circle in this whole conversation around a partner being the one who's going to introduce them to their own Sexual anatomy, how it functions. This is unhealthy Thinking, because if a young person's first sexual experiences with someone else, how is that an informed Consent for their future?
Speaker 1:It isn't yeah, I mean, you know me, I will join you here on this soapbox. I think that everyone has a right to all the knowledge about their body and I think that our lack of education for girls especially, it's really hurting women in the long run. You know, it's something I'm passionate about and Agreeing with you. I don't think if we're not giving women the education we're likely not giving men any better education on women. But it's true, it's that same content piece of I need to be on the same page with my body to have this full Consent, full yes, before I'm gonna move on and include someone else in that relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really feel like this is an important message for people to hear at, wherever you are. I mean, if you're a single person Trying to figure out your own sexual ethic, your own sexuality, if you're a parent trying to teach your child about their own sexual wellness, normal sexuality, this consent piece, as well as the understanding of your own body and your own Normal sexuality. These things start so early and for those of us who we didn't get it early, it's such a difficult unravel and then to reframe it, so can be done. So please hear me say I mean, this is happening, it's hopeful and, at the same time, for those who are, you know, earlier in the game here, now's the time.
Speaker 1:It's work worth doing.
Speaker 2:It's work worth doing. Love that and I love you I.
Speaker 1:Love you. It's so good to talk to you.
Speaker 2:I'm so delighted you could be with me and we could have a little chat, and I'm grateful for you and for your work on the podcast and just your help and I wonder, as we wrap up, if you would share One thing you would tell your younger self. I mean, you're still young, you're in your 20s, but you've learned so many things. But maybe what's one thing you would tell your younger self?
Speaker 1:I wish I could show my younger self that Even in the moments where you don't feel like you are safe or your body is yours, that those moments end. Things get better and there are times later in your life where you will come to know your body and to love your body and to be a whole person. Yeah, just to have that autonomy, I think, and to know that it'll get better.
Speaker 2:And that's a hopeful message. Thanks for sharing that. You know, on the podcast we share something that delights us. What's delighting you these days?
Speaker 1:Oh, this time is out and I am loving it. I'm just trying to soak in all the sitting in the sunshine, feeling the warmth. I live near the ocean. I love to stick my feet in the water, all those wonderful moments as summer begins. What about you? What's delighting you?
Speaker 2:I often don't share what's delighting me, but I am delighted by the sunset, especially if I can get near where you are in the beach and see the sunset there. But for some reason when I go out and watch the sunset it helps me to take a deep breath, kind of settle into my body, and I actually love when I can see the moon on one side and the sun going down on the other. I did this last night. Just days ending, new days beginning and deep breaths, and every day is a new day.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:That's what's delighting me right now. Thanks so much for being with me, abby, and for your work on the podcast. Thanks for having me so glad to have you and friends. If you're listening and thinking, hmm, this brings up some stuff for me Just want you to feel permission to explore, ask yourself some questions. I have a few on a blog and I'm gonna link to that. Just about pleasure even, or understanding your own self. I'm actually thinking now I have a letter to young women that I've written about these topics and I will link to that in the show notes. I have little goosebumps right now just thinking maybe there's someone listening that that letter is just for you today. By reading it, you'll learn to give your own self permission for pleasure.