Hiding Behind a Family Member’s Addiction? Recovery, Grief, and Finding Authenticity with Tom Farley

Have you ever hidden behind someone else’s chaos to avoid facing your struggles? When one person in a family becomes labeled as "the problem," does it make it easier for everyone else’s issues to fly under the radar?

In episode 238 of Sober Vibes, I welcome  Tom Farley to the show, and we talk about family addiction, grief, and Tom's recovery. Tom knows these family dynamics firsthand. As the brother of comedy legend, Tom spent years watching his sibling’s very public battle with addiction while downplaying his relationship with alcohol.

After Chris’s devastating overdose, Tom poured his grief into advocacy, often speaking about his brother’s addiction. But behind the scenes, he was still comparing himself to others whose addictions looked worse, convincing himself he didn’t have “a real problem.”

It wasn’t until he surrendered seven years ago that Tom realized recovery is about so much more than abstinence. As he puts it, “I just needed the clarity that sobriety gave me so I could work on all these things.” Those “things” included finding his authentic self after decades of being known only as “Chris Farley’s brother.”

Tom is a passionate advocate for mental health and addiction
treatment. He works at Recovery.com, connecting people with the resources they need to heal. As a speaker and author, he shares his journey to break stigma, inspire hope, and foster connection.

This amazing conversation explores how family roles, comparison, and grief can both hinder and, ultimately, shape our paths to recovery.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• Growing up in a large Irish Wisconsin family where drinking was normalized
• How his brothers' visible struggle made it easy for Tom to minimize his drinking
• Tom’s multiple sobriety attempts, including five years before relapse
• The turning point that led him to lasting recovery nearly seven years ago
• How he learned to separate the “addictive Chris” from the brother he loved
• Why vulnerability is essential in building genuine connections in sobriety
• Tom’s journey to finding his authentic self and his purpose in recovery advocacy

Connect with Tom:

Recovery.com 

Podcast 

Tom's Book 

Resources Mentioned:

Sober 1:1 Coaching 

The Sobriety Circle 

The After-Emotional Sobriety Guide

PODCAST SPONSOR:

This episode is sponsored by Soberlink, a trusted accountability tool for anyone navigating early recovery. Whether you're rebuilding trust with loved ones or want more structure in your sobriety, Soberlink offers a discreet and empowering way to stay on track.

So

Thank you for listening! Help the show by Rating, Reviewing, and/or Subscribing to the Sober Vibes Podcast.

Connect w/ Courtney:
Instagram
Join the Sobriety Circle

Apply for 1:1 Coaching
Order the Sober Vibes Book

Chapters

• 0:00 Sibling Addiction Taking Center Stage
• 4:15 Living in Chris Farley's Shadow
• 10:49 Minimizing Your Own Addiction
• 17:42 Soberlink Sponsor Message
• 19:20 Vulnerability and Recovery Growth
• 25:42 RecoveryCom and Trusted Resources
• 30:19 Finding Serenity in Recovery

Transcript

Courtney Andersen : 0:11

What happens when your sibling's addiction takes center stage and it feels easier to hide behind their chaos than face your own. Welcome back to another episode of the Sober Vibes podcast. I'm your host and Sober Coach, courtney Anderson. You are listening to episode 238. I'm joined today by Tom Farley, who is the host of the Recoverycom podcast, and today Tom opens up with us about his own sobriety journey, the challenges of growing up with a famous sibling who struggled publicly with addiction, and the heartbreaking reality of eventually losing him and still being in moments of grief. Today we talk about how easy it can be to minimize or excuse your own drinking when someone in your family's looks like the real problem right. So Tom shares what it took for him to step out from behind that shadow, confront his own relationship with alcohol and create a life and recovery on his own terms. This is an amazing conversation about family grief and courage it takes to stop comparing yourself to others and finally get honest about your own healing and what steps that Tom took to get honest with his own feelings and his own recovery. Today it's a great episode.

Courtney Andersen : 1:26

I really enjoyed talking to Tom and always, if you're ready to go deeper, beyond listening and into real change. You don't have to do it alone. You can work with me with my one-on-one sober coaching program, where we create a plan tailored to your unique needs, or join my sobriety circle. This is a community for women in the first few years of sobriety who want support, accountability and tools to thrive. You can find both links in the show notes, and I love to walk this journey with you. Thank you for listening. As always, slide into my DMs or email me and let me know how this episode helped you today. As always, keep on trucking and stay healthy out there. Hey Tom, welcome to the Silver Vibes podcast. I'm really excited to chat with you today.

Tom Farley : 2:12

Yeah, good to be here. Thank you for having me Great.

Courtney Andersen : 2:16

Good. Well, let's start with how you entered in recovery. What did that look like for you?

Tom Farley : 2:23

Well, it's interesting, it was a kind of a slow progression. So we had this big Irish family and we're coming from Wisconsin, so drinking was very normative, it was part of our identity and so we didn't think it was a problem for us. We're managing life fine. And then one of us so basically it was two parents and five kids, and one of them was my brother, chris Farley. So we were kind of going through this kind of being this Midwestern Irish Farley kind of thing, but we started to notice that one of us, chris, it was more of a problem and so it got our attention. But it got our attention to like this is Chris's problem, he's got to work on this, we don't have a problem. And so it all became about that. Focus was about that, which created all sorts of other things, and so we kind of managed through Chris's kind of journey. So we kind of managed through Chris's kind of journey.

Tom Farley : 3:25

I like to say I was fortunate enough, I was working in New York when he was in New York for Saturday Night Live and I got to see him almost lose his job because of drinking. But I also got to see him coming out of treatment and being in this world of recovery and it was wonderful to see. I didn't know what I was seeing, you know, as I like to say, all I saw was he's dressing better. But I went. I saw him at a few meetings celebrating his third year in sobriety, again not knowing what I was seeing, but it was wonderful to see Chris as the brother I always wanted him to be. And then we had this very public overdose that really changed everyone's lives and our family. And, thankfully for me, I experienced that moment and I realized if I'm going to get through this pain and through this grief, I need to talk about it. And so I did. And I went out for years talking about Chris's struggles with addiction, thinking I was helping people and I probably was. I'm sure I was going into schools and being an advocate for prevention at that time. It kind of went into the recovery thing. But again, all that time I was talking about somebody else's addiction, somebody else's story, and thinking I'm doing great.

Tom Farley : 4:56

I did have moments, because I had a young family, that I was raising a lot of distractions, and so there was a couple of times I was like maybe I shouldn't drink too, and so I would have these long bouts of sobriety Four or five years. I could manage that because I had stuff going on in my world and I would go to meetings because I thought that's what you did and it was interesting. I remember going into the rooms and it was just like when you have somebody in your family that's just a little bit more have an acute addiction, it was easy for us in our family to say like well, we don't have the problem, we're not that bad. And unfortunately when you do that you really can't help that person as much as you'd like, as you should as a family, because we were afraid of being honest about our own issues. So I would walk into rooms and hear somebody share and like same thing.

Tom Farley : 5:59

I'm like, well, that guy drinks more than me, that person takes drugs and they drink. So I'm like I'm good and just being sober. It wasn't a matter of time before I was like I can have, I've been sober five years, I can have one drink which turned into like I'm like really I'm back where I was.

Courtney Andersen : 6:20

So was that quick for you when you would go, when you went back to drinking where it's just like that yeah it's amazing.

Tom Farley : 6:25

Yeah, just hey, you start positively, like it was like I had st patrick's day, I can have one again, something five years. And then like, well, I can have one, I can have two, like manage this, yeah. And then all of a sudden life hits you, you have a financial stress or a job loss and I'm like, now I'm drinking, not realizing that the financial stress and the job loss kind of has something to do with the drinking. You look at it separately and it just was like that for the longest time, just up and down, until about seven years ago I got tired again.

Tom Farley : 7:06

I'm smart enough to know that I was managing my drinking. If I leave a party now I can get home safely, which is already. No, you really can't, it's too late for that. But then I would clock my way home to avoid detection and I'm like, and then I didn't get home. I'm like, well, it's only 930. So the night's not over A whole summer of that. And I'm like, and waking up that morning, just I, just, you know, I, this isn't the life I wanted. So I did what I. Only the only thing I knew how to do was stop.

Courtney Andersen : 7:41

Yeah, yeah.

Tom Farley : 7:43

Yeah, and I was fortunate. This time, though, I had worked with a woman who had started, who had a clinic here in Madison, wisconsin, that I had started working with her teen IOP groups that's my first kind of work in the recovery field and she just happened to call me during that time. I hadn't talked to her for a while. She goes how are you doing? I proudly tell her like I haven't had a drink in four months, thinking that I'd get a lot more applause than I did. She's like great, that's great, we should have coffee. I'm like I'd love to have coffee. She goes great Meet me Saturday morning 9 o'clock in the basement of the Presbyterian Church. I'm like, damn it, I didn't know this Really.

Tom Farley : 8:29

Yeah, but this just happened to this person who had helped so many people out of the community. How do you say no to that person? It was my first surrendering to a higher borrower. Was this jelly, and I said okay and I went in bar? Or was this jelly and I said okay and I went in and I started? After a while, I started to hear not, this person drinks more than me. I'm like oh wow, I've had broken relationships, like that person's describing. I've had job loss like that person's describing like I was. It wasn't about drinking and I suddenly realized that recovery isn't about sobriety. I just needed the clarity that sobriety gave me so I could work on all these things. And that moment was like okay, and I started to feel, at least in the rooms, I started feeling more connected and a sense of belonging and I started feeling those things. I'm like I haven't looked back.

Courtney Andersen : 9:34

Right, that's awesome. Well, congratulations. So it's been seven years.

Tom Farley : 9:39

A little over. Yeah, yeah, almost, yeah, like seven and a half or six and a half. Yeah, like seven and a half or six and a half.

Courtney Andersen : 9:45

So this time, the first time when you hit five years, what was different about this time? Because you fully surrendered to it compared to the last time.

Tom Farley : 9:59

This is, and this is the whole thing During those other times was also a time in my life where I was putting this person out to the world that I thought they wanted me to be. That I wanted me to be, and in order to be that person, I had to manage everyone else in every aspect of my life so I could be that person. My family had to be a certain way so I could be that person. You know, my family had to be a certain way so I could be that person. My employers had to give me that job not the one I have, that one. You don't understand. I need to be this.

Tom Farley : 10:33

And for somebody that just always wanted a connection, I was pushing people away because nobody wants to be managed that way, to be belayed, because nobody wants to be managed that way. And so, five years into my recovery, what I had been working on all that time was this authentic person trying to be that this person could be. All that time in my life I had these expectations of who I wanted to be. This is. I was trying to curate this life. That was hard enough. But then I became somebody's brother. Then I became Tom Farley, brother of Chris Farley, who died of drug overdose.

Tom Farley : 11:20

That was my full name and totally like, all right, how do I shed those two? Like how do I find my authentic self when this is how I've operated for so long? And so trying to get back to that, just being tom farley again? But or maybe for the first time I started really I wanted that and the way it made me feel maybe a lot even more like yeah, oh, my gosh, now I'm connecting authentically with One of the things you talk about in the rooms and that I First time I heard rigorous honesty. I'm like that's a thing, yeah, that's awesome, and the whole thing gratitude and humility. I realized how could that person I was putting out to the world ever be grateful or humble or even rigorously honest? Because it wasn't a real person. I could never achieve those things because the person I needed to do that wasn't real. It was somebody I created.

Courtney Andersen : 12:20

So these last years, then, you have you really tuned into doing the work and finding your authentic self of who you are now, which is awesome, which honestly congratulations to you, because it took you a while to get there, right, yeah, but you got there and you found that person. So how does that feel, finding that person?

Tom Farley : 12:41

It's awesome, but I also too that this person, this monster that I created, is still there. And so I tell people. That's why I cling to my recovery is because I'm a social person. I love to connect with people and I love to be out doing that. But if I found myself acting up or just trying to make people laugh or beat, that person comes back. That I was comes back. I'm like, OK, I'm very in tune to that, Like I need to get. I know what I need to do now. I need to go to a reading, call somebody, read a passage from the book. But I don't want to remain solely in my recovery community because that's isolating too.

Courtney Andersen : 13:33

Yeah, yes.

Tom Farley : 13:35

But, man, it's where I feel my most belonging, connection that I want out there, but that doesn't happen all the time, so I constantly run back and feel it's an anchor and that's okay, right, I mean eventually that outside community it comes right.

Courtney Andersen : 13:58

So it will come. I do have a question for you, because my sister and I have a show within the Sober Vibes podcast. It's a show within a show and it's me and her and she is also in recovery and so we talk a lot about family. So I kind of want to talk to you about the family dynamics of what you said earlier with your brother, chris. First, with the five kids, did everybody have an issue substance abuse issues or no?

Tom Farley : 14:30

We were Irish and we lived in Wisconsin. I think that answers that question. Okay, that's fine.

Courtney Andersen : 14:35

Yeah, yes, I mean, I live in Michigan, so I get the Midwest culture right. But what's very interesting is when there's the one sibling that is and this is all due respect this is there's no other way that I can describe this but quote, unquote the train wreck right, the run where it's the severe and it gives you almost permission to be like well, I'm not that.

Tom Farley : 15:05

Right, oh, absolutely 100%. And it was even more so when that person Chris Farley, it also gave me permission to be, oh, just say things and do things that I would never do in a million years. It's like, yeah, he's Chris Farhan's brother. I guess it's okay. It just made it worse, right? And not only that, but you tend to focus on that, yes, and the problem is that we lost Chris in the process, chris in the process and all my work in recovery and writing a book on Chris, but not in my words.

Tom Farley : 15:53

I interviewed people that knew Chris and I saw that they saw him better, more clear than I did, and I. What I like to say is I have a better relationship with Chris now than I ever did when he was alive, because I get to separate the addictive Chris from the brother I love. And that's the problem with families, is it's the whole thing? And, like with addiction, yeah, it's not like you need to separate those things, because deep behind this addiction that Chris had was this person that I could connect to a lot better than the outwardly either the addicted Chris or the celebrity Chris. Right, I didn't, I didn't, that's not what I wanted, right.

Courtney Andersen : 16:43

You wanted your brother. Yeah, I get that. That didn't. That's not what I wanted, right. You wanted your brother. Yeah, I get that. That's how. Yes, my sister, I got sober before my sister did and that was very. That is something I had to compartmentalize right With. I understood the addiction, kimmy, and then I understood my sister, kim, and that is. It's two completely separate people. So, and it's very, too, when there's a person in the family unit where the major focus is on them and their addiction all of that all yeah, all of that stuff that they had done in their active addiction that was drained.

Courtney Andersen : 17:24

Your parents put stress on the family, right. That does overshadow who at the core they are.

Tom Farley : 17:33

And I guess what I was kind of hinting at before when. I said a lot of other things I didn't know. I had all this resentment of like why is Chris got all the attention? And it's not because he's a celebrity, it's like he's addicted. I just it was great to separate that.

Courtney Andersen : 17:50

Hey, good people of the world, it's Courtney. And if you're in your first year or your fifth year of sobriety, let's be real. Summers can be tough, Like a very, very, very challenging. It took me a couple summers to finally feel comfortable. There's something about warm weather, parties and poolside drinks that can make it feel like everybody's drinking but you.

Courtney Andersen : 18:13

But just because drinking culture ramps up, especially during this time, doesn't mean your progress has to slow down. That's where a tool like Soberlink can help. It's a high-tech breathalyzer that helps people in recovery stay accountable, not through shame, but through structure, Scheduled daily tests. Let you share instant, verified results with the people who support you, so you don't have to do it alone, Worried someone might question your results. They can't, because Soberlink uses facial recognition and tamper detection, so there's no way to cheat it.

Courtney Andersen : 18:48

Whether you're rebuilding trust or you just want that extra layer of support this summer, Sober Link is here to help you stay the course of your journey. I've witnessed people benefit from Sober Link and I want you to be the next. Visit wwwsoberlinkcom. Forward slash sober dash vibes to sign up and receive 50% off your device today. You can also check the link in the show notes below. Did you have to, in this process of your six and a half years, just with anybody to, and of the work that you have done? Did you have? Was there a remorning of him because of the more of the clear headed space that?

Tom Farley : 19:37

you were in and probably having to do that work. No, actually it was just the opposite. As I said, I got this person back, that I, I it's almost like I get to see this different person. It's almost like and it's very unique. It's very I feel like there's only a few people in the world that really got to see that. Yeah, or glimpses of it.

Tom Farley : 20:00

And those are wonderful conversations where I made an old friend or somebody who works with Chris, like you know what I had this moment, and they didn't describe a Chris the celebrity moment. They described this Chris the human moment and I'm like, oh, that's just such a great story. Thank you for sharing that, because that's what I crave more than anything is those reminders of just what an amazing person this was, because I didn't see it. It was a real pain in the butt for a long time. I'm being kind by saying that, but I didn't like feeling that way. Right, right, I loved to joke about, like, just how like traumatic it was to go to high school with chris, knowing he was in the same building, but I was able to go again. No, it was, it was fun, it was, it was great, right.

Courtney Andersen : 20:52

So were you older or were you younger than him?

Tom Farley : 20:56

Older? Yeah, I was in my sister Barb was the oldest and there were four of us, so it was me, chris, Kevin and Johnny. So I was the one that shared that with Chris.

Courtney Andersen : 21:05

Okay, gotcha, gotcha. What also, too, this is a great one would you recommend? Because there is that five year. I remember when I was five years sober, I felt like I was going through a midlife crisis at 35 years old. But you said that it came up where you're like I can just have one beer, it's St Patrick's Day, right, and that is so common for so many people, as it's around some milestones where those thoughts come up, right. So now, what you know and the work that you have done in the past six and a half years, what would you tell somebody if they are having those thoughts come up? What would you recommend for them to do.

Tom Farley : 21:47

Well for me yeah, I don't know what I'd tell people. Well for me, it was never about sobriety. For me, it was about recovery, all these other things. The quicker you make it, you know about that, the happier you're going to be. It's like I it's not about I can be around people drinking all the time. It's just not about that for me, because I just I don't. It's it can. I realize it could never give me.

Tom Farley : 22:18

What I always wanted was this connection and sense of belonging. I think when you feel like that, I remember what that feels like and I also remember that it was also a time in my life when I had a lot of fear, a lot of self-doubt still, and I think that's an indicator. It's not the I need to drag. It's like how much fear and self-doubt are you still carrying with you? And I look at myself now I'm like I don't have that as much, nearly as much as I did, because and that that's it the fear and self-doubt was the things that always brought me back to drinking that's great to hear too, that beer is is gone.

Tom Farley : 23:10

I'm sure it's not gone yeah, I still like it's still there, yeah they're in a group over there. Are they talking about me? Yeah, yeah. It's just so silly.

Courtney Andersen : 23:20

Well, but then I think too I think a lot of people in this space it comes back to confidence and self-esteem and that self-worth, and then that little bit of self-sabotage that you always have to keep in check, and that's a continuous work in progress.

Tom Farley : 23:38

Yeah, the weird thing about it is you know what like unlocks that that I found is being vulnerable, and the more you can be vulnerable and trust yourself to do that, that's where all these gains come in. But until you kind of learn that and lean into it and say, okay, I'm going to be vulnerable, expose myself and the gain the people that you draw to you is so much better than the people that are pushed away because of that, I don't know, I read too much Brene Brown. That's my problem. I don't know. I don't know if it makes sense.

Courtney Andersen : 24:28

I mean Brene Brown, she's all about vulnerability.

Tom Farley : 24:32

Early in my recovery. Those are the things that really made sense to me. The most is I had this armor on me that kept the pain out, but it also kept my pain in and it didn't work, and so, yeah, I'm like a lot of that.

Courtney Andersen : 24:51

Yeah, Vulnerability is a powerful thing, Huge Well. So now you are I mean, you have been helping others for many, many, many, many years in this arena, I should say but now you are hosting the recovery podcast, the recovery cast.

Tom Farley : 25:12

Yeah and yeah, we're working on that no-transcript. They did something, uh, and I was really then they're're right here in Madison, a startup in my hometown, and then they bought the domain name recoverycom, and I remember having a conversation with the founders who said great for our business. It really focused us on the mission. But all of a sudden we realized we have to honor recovery, we have to be recovery. And that's when I said I've got to work for you. I've got to because I love that. Treatment is a good first step for a lot of people. But that's just the recovery, this rest of your life. That's where I want to be. And so I said you have to hire me. I have to work. First of all. You're a tech company. You don't know how to get in front of people Like that's all I know. That's all I know how to do.

Tom Farley : 26:40

So, let me help you spread the word. And it's been wonderful. And we've grown on our product side to expand to not just treatment but sober living and peer recovery and all of this great stuff on the back end of treatment that I love. And now this podcast is really you know it's. We talk a lot about where we were and what we did and our list of defects, and that's fine to know. You gotta know all the things this life and recovery is. I want to know about that. I I want to hear just how people's lives are transformed, the way mine was.

Courtney Andersen : 27:20

Yeah.

Tom Farley : 27:21

And so hopefully we'll get to that. The podcast will grow in that direction, I think. But I also just need attention, so I'm glad you're giving me a podcast to do that.

Courtney Andersen : 27:34

Well, I mean, but I will go back to what you said of the Internet being a wild west, and that is what I like about recoverycom, because it's a trusted source, because that's another thing. I mean, not all these rehabs are sunshine and butterflies, so and you need you do need to be careful and out there's scams everywhere, but so I do like that this is a resource that that helps people with that and find the right ones.

Tom Farley : 28:04

Yeah, they'll always be there, as is my. My daughter's always kind of combing through our sites like dad, you have a place on your, on your site. That are kind of had trouble. I'm yeah, we know that, but we everyone gets a free, a free list here. We want to include everyone. But how we help you find the right places, we're not going to help you find the wrong place, so it just it works.

Courtney Andersen : 28:28

Right, Right. Yeah, it's a wonderful resource. So well, congrats on the podcast. How many episodes do you have so far so?

Tom Farley : 28:36

well, congrats on the podcast. How many episodes do you have so far? I think we're. We just we did two this week, so we're like 10 or 12. So, yeah, but just amazing stories. At first we were getting some people that, oh, one or two years into their journey and I'm like I'm like okay. But now when I sit down and talk to these people, I'm like that's actually the best. Those are the best stories because it's so fresh and raw where they came from and there's so much hope and it's such a great. We're getting some really, really great people and stories. I think the ability to help a lot of people, as I, as I like to say we, we tell our stories because we don't heal in isolation yeah, it's true, and for all the years I've done this.

Tom Farley : 29:25

I've said like, yeah, I'm being a motivating or a malapartist, but like, don't forget, I'm still healing. What you're seeing is I do me doing this is still I'm still healing. What you're seeing is me doing this, I'm still healing. And I need to tell people that and tell myself that.

Courtney Andersen : 29:44

Yeah, absolutely Well, the podcast. It's a fun thing and it's fun to connect with people that you would have never met before and you have these conversations with on a random Friday.

Tom Farley : 29:55

Yeah, I know, I know I can't get it Friday. Yeah, I know, I know I can't get it. I like this is work, I guess. As I said, I get to help people, which I've always wanted to do. I get to heal, continue to heal, which I love doing, and I've finally found something that I'm generally proud of and want to support. This amazing resource, I think, is everything's finally come together good, that's awesome. That is the many gifts of sobriety right yeah yes, you couldn't have told me that before. I couldn't believe you.

Courtney Andersen : 30:30

I know you don't believe it until you're in it and you're like, oh, oh okay.

Tom Farley : 30:35

And you've got to. For me, I've got to feel it too.

Courtney Andersen : 30:38

Yeah.

Tom Farley : 30:39

I'll tell you a little story if we do have time. One of the first tools I used early in my recovery was I lived a long time in New York and so I moved back to Wisconsin. I wouldn't say a road rage, but I was not fun to be in the car with. I was very aggressive.

Courtney Andersen : 30:59

Yeah.

Tom Farley : 31:00

And so we say the serenity prayer so often that it becomes like so I get it, but like what is serenity and how? I taught myself that is like now I'm in the car a lot, now I just plant myself in the slow lane, right lane, and when the car goes zipping by I'm like I can't change that person, I, I I'm gonna get where I am and I'm, I'm going to, I can control me, and then and I continue to listen to whatever pockets I'm listening and just be in this place, and all of a sudden I'm like feeling differently in the car. I'm like that's serenity. Now I know what it feels like. Now I've connected a feeling to this word that we say all the time in meetings. I'm like now it makes sense, I got it.

Courtney Andersen : 31:54

Yeah, it clicks when it clicks. I got to feel it. Yeah, yeah, like now it makes sense. I got it. Yeah, it clicks when it clicks.

Tom Farley : 31:57

I got to feel it yeah.

Courtney Andersen : 31:59

Yeah, yeah, absolutely Well. Thank you so much, tom, for taking the time and talking with us today, and I will connect the podcast in the show notes below and I will connect recoverycom. So good people the world check it out. It's a wonderful resource and thank you for talking with us thank you.

Tom Farley : 32:17

Thank you for doing this, thank you for what you're doing too. I I love that we're doing so many podcasts on the subject. It's good, it's good all good, thank you.