Wine with Meg + Mel
The fun + frank podcast which helps you navigate the world of wine. Hosted by Australia's first female Master of Wine Meg Brodtmann, and self-titled Master of Sabrage Mel Gilcrist.
Wine with Meg + Mel
Wine News: Wine industry "nepotism", Australian Vintage CEO re-instated, Australia's best wine list named, things still rocky in China, new tag line for Orange.
News we discuss this week:
- What the re-instating of the outsed Australian Vintage CEO says about company culture
- Gimlet has won Australia's Wine List of the Year award for 2024 (Timeout)
- An update on Aussie wine in China as we get more negative press over "expired" moscato (Vino Joy News)
- An anonymous letter stirs the pot on nepotism in the wine industry (Wine Business Magazine)
- The Orange wine region's new identity, "A Drop Above,"- is regional branding working in Australia? (Wine Titles)
Follow us on instagram @winewithmegandmel
Hi and welcome to Wine with Meg and Mel. We are here to help you navigate the world of wine. I'm Melville, co-starring by Master of Wine Meg Brotman. Meg, we are doing this on Zoom for only like the second time ever.
Speaker 2:I know, and it's not even COVID. I know we both have a glass of wine. I see, though.
Speaker 1:What are you drinking?
Speaker 2:What is it?
Speaker 1:Hesh Hill.
Speaker 2:Sauvignon Blanc. Oh, that's all right. Yeah, it's all right, we've had a bottle of Verve.
Speaker 1:Oh well, that's better. Yeah, we were celebrating.
Speaker 2:Miri and Elliot's six-month anniversary.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, are you kidding? Your whole family sat around celebrating your son's six-month anniversary. That is super cute, very cute. That is much less embarrassing. Well, no, I don't think this is embarrassing. I did it for fun. I keep picking up stuff from Aldi because I'm interested. So, yeah, I'm drinking like a $15 Aldi Reserva. It's Tempranillo and Graziano and it ain't bad.
Speaker 2:Have you tried the German?
Speaker 1:recently.
Speaker 2:German no. Oh my God, it's like $9. Okay. It's in the cheapest bottle ever. It is fantastic, sweet or dry Dry? Oh, I think it's Mosul. What Eva? It is fantastic, sweet or dry Dry. I think it's basil what? It is really, really, really good.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm really excited for that. So, look, we clearly need to do another Aldi episode because we've both been a bit geeky over Aldi lately. But for now, today we have a Y News episode. We haven't done one in a while and there's a few things that we wanted to chat about, so we're going to get into it. But actually, first, I think this is interesting. Let's have a quick chat about this. The reason we over Zoom at the moment is you're really busy because you're doing a director's course, so you're president of YNARO Valley. Can you just quickly outline what you're doing?
Speaker 2:So I'm doing the Australian Institute of Company Directors course and it's just little me, and I'm in it with people from acquisitions and mergers, from Rio Tinto, and this one woman was head of risk or strategy for Westpac Bank and people who are in risk management and people who run like all these medical colleges and medical blah blah blah. They are all geniuses. And then there's just like whoa me sitting there.
Speaker 1:Well, I tell you what Reg your accolades just get more impressive. If you weren't already a master of one, now you're doing this. All-round genius, really. Oh sorry, is this a pass-fail thing? I don't think I'll pass. Do you have an exam? Do?
Speaker 2:you have an exam? Do you have an exam? Yeah, I have an assignment, a 3,000-word assignment, a short answer exam and a multiple choice exam. Holy, and then I become a graduate of the Australian Institute of Company Directors, GAICD.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, Meg, Maybe we shouldn't have announced it on the podcast.
Speaker 2:What if you don't pass? How embarrassing. Oh no, I'll re-sit, I'll just keep it. I won't pass on my first go. There's no way. It is too hard what I'm doing these things like. I have to look up what things mean, because it's all in corporate speak and I don't speak corporate speak, and so I look up things like what does that actually mean?
Speaker 2:because I have to rewrite everything that they've got into normal language. Wow. And even the other day we were doing like the online course and I read this question to this guy and I said can you tell me what that means? And he goes no, I don't think I understand. And then we went back to the guy running the course and I said can you tell me what this means? And he went no, I don't understand that either. So what hope have I got? I can tell this debt covenant ratio. So I'm looking up what does debt covenant mean?
Speaker 1:Wow, that's nuts.
Speaker 2:It's nuts, but it's fun.
Speaker 1:You're a very clever lady, so I think you're going to do well, I'm not, I'm not.
Speaker 2:I'm not not in this, not in this space, because the thing is I've gone from being an expert in my little field to like the dunce of the class. But you know we'll get there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you know what it can only make you like, broaden you even more. I think that's really awesome and I think that already in this Y we're going to see like different opinions and stuff. So look, let's get into it. We've got a bunch of stuff today to talk about. We're going to talk about Australia's wine list of the year. It has been named. There's a funny little China story which is like oh, how do we feel about that? Is nepotism holding back? The wine industry, which I'm so excited to get into and you know I love to throw in a marketing one which is the orange wine region, has a new tagline. So we're going to talk about that. But first we just had a quick chat Do we talk about this or not? And we decided to just quickly cover it. Look, australian Vintage CEO. We had australian vintage on recently. We had the hr on um talking about women in the industry, um, and then only what?
Speaker 1:like a month or two later, the um ceo was dismissed and it was really ambiguous lack of judgment yeah, displayed lack of judgment and was inconsistent with the values of the company that expects high standards of its CEO. So we have no idea what this means. Full transparency? We really don't. We don't know what this is in regards to at all, but it is so strange that they put out a statement saying that and now they've reinstated him. So what's your take?
Speaker 2:Meg. They brought him on to help with the assessments of the new candidates. Oh you're kidding what?
Speaker 1:Oh really. So they said Like the new. Ceo candidates.
Speaker 2:Yes. So they thought his appointment follows an external search that considered a number of exceptional candidates. After a thorough review of the circumstances and processes surrounding his departure, the board felt it was important for Craig to be involved in the search process. What so they brought him in? And then they've decided that his track record at AVG, his leadership style and deep understanding of his industry, his partners, blah, blah, blah, makes him the right person to put in the new strategic plan. Now AVG have got and this is public- knowledge, their debt, Australian Vintage.
Speaker 1:What's the G Group?
Speaker 2:So it's Nepenthe yeah. Oh yeah, we should say that Tempest II, all those Pretty big, so their debt is really high compared to the income that they're getting. And I just think, doing my director's course, that culture is led from the top right, so it's top-down model.
Speaker 2:And clearly the new chair of the board, who is, I think, the chief investment officer of Wentworth's Williamson, which is a substantial shareholder of AVG, so clearly he has an interest in AVG doing well, so the interim chair wants him back on board because they now have a laser focus on restoring shareholder value. So, what it is, it's not about culture of the company, it's about making some dosh. That's how I read it. From reading this Now, I know nothing about the situation, but if you just read what this says, it seems that culture for me has taken a back place to shareholder value.
Speaker 2:Well, I just worry about how everyone else at the company is feeling, because there's very much that board level and management.
Speaker 1:Like, oh my God, I've had so many sessions in my corporate career of like these are our company values. Let's get out the post-its and put down how you're going to work by our values and stuff. And it's like if from the top down has done something to directly say who cares about these values. It is so interesting, because what is that telling your employees?
Speaker 2:Exactly so. They've said he was left because of lack of judgment against our values, but now we really need to save our arses, so our judgment and our values can just take a little bit of a backseat for the moment, while we focus on making money for the shareholder. That's how I read it, irrespective of who this person is and what he has done in the past.
Speaker 1:Well, very interesting. It will be interesting to keep watching on and see how Australian Vintage goes and to see whether he can turn it around. But let's get into our other news stories. This one is a bit of fun. The cork is the headline. Gimlet has won Australia's Wine List of the Year Award for 2024. This is from Time Out. So Gimlet is in Melbourne. Gimlet, or even Victoria, hasn't won an award for this award for the last three years, and so Melbourne's claimed it again. Judge Andrew Graham said the Gimlet list artfully blends the great and good with a dose of variety and complexity. Now I sent you the wine list and I was like Meg, have a look, we're going to discuss. So what did you think?
Speaker 2:I thought it was a really cute wine list. Yeah, me too. I loved it. I'm only looking at by the glass, yeah, so they've sort of got wines by the glass. How does it start? Let me, I'm just scrolling through it. Sparkling and Champagne. So they've got interesting, a deviation or a Gimlet, private cuvee. So someone's obviously making wine for them or they've rebranded it for themselves. Yep, then they've got a lovely, you know Franklin Estate Riesling for $15 a glass, which is pretty reasonable. Some Gruner Veltling the prices aren't stupid-ass crazy. But they've got wines of provenance, so wines from certain regions. So there's a Tokay ferment, a Viura from Rioja, a Cabernet Riesling from Mosul.
Speaker 1:It's like if you want to go out and spend $75 on a glass, there is the option, and I love that, yeah, but it's not the only option.
Speaker 2:$41 on Sancerre Vacheron A little bit spendy, it's nice I see the Levantine Hill is $49 a glass. Yeah, out of the Yarra Valley that is true, but then they've got neither white nor red yeah. I love that so they've got some rosés and some skin contact wines and it's a cute little by the glass wine list.
Speaker 1:I haven't seen their full bottle Do you think it was worthy of the award.
Speaker 2:I don't know not knowing it's competition, I think it's definitely a contender. Yeah, it's fun, did you? Yeah, there's some really interesting stuff there.
Speaker 1:I looked into it, this Roller Wine Co. Have you looked into that? It says it's from Yarra Valley, the Chardonnay no. So they're one of these ones that just buy in grapes from different regions and they have a cellar door somewhere in Melbourne, which is interesting. But I had a look at this Chardonnay and it is like the sexiest description for a Chardonnay I've ever seen. I was like, oh my God, take me out for dinner first. Like this Chardonnay has the leaf texture, a flicker of phenolic grit and a core of mineral acidity guiding the wine Curd lime skin, melon and quince over complex sulfide, interesting Integrated mealy oak. I love that as a tasting note.
Speaker 2:That is a good tasting note but seriously is it delicious, yeah, well, who knows? No, I love it. That does sound like it would be. Yeah, does sound like it would be.
Speaker 1:Look interesting. I have to say that I read the wine list and messaged my husband immediately and said we're going to Gimlet for my birthday so I can taste a few of these things. I think it's actually a pretty good wine list and worth checking out. So do you know what else we are? Always we want to know what wine bars or what places have the best wine list that you love. So definitely DM us, let us know where you love and we'll share it as well, because Meg and I both really love checking out places with the wine.
Speaker 2:A good wine list? Yeah, not just a good wine, really.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly. Okay, moving on, so this is an interesting one. So Chinese merchant fined for selling expired Moscato amid China's wine glut. So this is from Vino Joy News, which I looked into it, sam, so legit, your ultimate source.
Speaker 2:No, vino Joy.
Speaker 1:I subscribe to oh okay, so it's specific to China's wine market. It's just a really hilarious title that I feel like they've translated from something Chinese and Vino Joy News it's actually my go-to for China title that I feel like they've translated from something Chinese and you know, joy news, it's actually my go-to for China.
Speaker 1:It's very serious news, yeah oh, that's hilarious, that it's serious. But like this is interesting, right, because on it's on the back of all of this stuff that we've had with China and we have a real image problem with China because, as much as what happened with COVID, china has said that we took advantage. They claim that Australia took advantage of their position and was just sending bulk and it wasn't good and stuff, and so now we're getting fined for Moscato. That's out of date, but of course this is going to happen because there's such a surplus of stock over there. So what's going on, meg? Do you think that this is really bad in terms of our Australian reputation in China?
Speaker 2:So what happened after the policy, as they call it, which is when the introduction of the 218% tariffs in 2020 as a tariff measure against what the Chinese saw as dumping of wine? So dumping means selling below price in the domestic market, basically. So we were just flogging it off when the policy was introduced, even though people still had stock. So when the policy was introduced, even though people still had stock, it was not seen to be good politic to be selling Australian wine. So, even if you had stock, you pulled it out of the retail, you pulled it out of the restaurants and you just sat on it because it was not seen to be. It was against the President's wishes. Okay, it was against the President's wishes, okay.
Speaker 2:Part of the dumping came about because, in order to get a visa, the Chinese just had to buy a certain amount of wine and then they got automatic permanent residency visa and they were dumping the wine on the market because they didn't have experience of selling the wine. They just bought it and then they just flogged it off at whatever price they could in China because they'd fulfilled their visa requirements in Australia. So we didn't control that end of the market and China is a very difficult market. It's not a normal importer distributor market.
Speaker 2:Often you'll be, selling to the end user, or he'll sell to his mates, who'll then sell on to his mates, who'll then put it into his mates' restaurants. So it is a very confusing market to work within, but people did pull back stock and when we were there for the roadshow, we did see quite a lot of 2018 and 2019 stock being pulled out. Now, the thing that China introduced during the tariffs was that every product has to have a best before date. What, mm-hmm? It's lying. Yeah, I know it.
Speaker 1:Notoriously ages, not all of it granted Moscato 2018.
Speaker 2:Probably doesn't.
Speaker 1:This is true.
Speaker 2:So this is probably where they've got them, on an absolute technicality that has exceeded its best before date. So should we be worried?
Speaker 1:Is this a big story? Is this going to stir up in China like we really can't trust Australia?
Speaker 2:Well, the problem is that, if you read in Vino Joy today, wine sales are stagnant in China. So we rushed to fill all the shelves when the borders opened up, when the tariffs were dropped, and now the shelves are filled and people are buying.
Speaker 1:Do you think that maybe Wine Australia or Wine, I don't know should we have somehow controlled this more in terms of to make sure that we have a premium image, like should we have said you're only allowed to send wine of a certain quality or of a certain price tag to China, so that we no, because, a little bit like AVG, it's all about return to shareholders, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It's like if we can sell that shit, we're going to sell that shit. There are two parts of the market.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the problem, and that is what separates Australia from France. That is so frustrating.
Speaker 2:No, I don't know, look at the longer knock, they'll just dump that shit. The Chinese have just put a tariff on French brandy. Really, take that. Yep, they've just put a massive tariff. But I mean, no, what it is? It's a political move done to wrap you over the fingers, and the reason they've done it to France is because of the Airbus and all this hoo-ha politically, but it's a wrap over the fingers. What's happened with Australia is it's just flexing their muscles, saying we are in control and we have to play by the rules. But what's interesting is that for us in the premium wine space and the sparkling wine space, this summer was incredibly hot in China, which I can attest to because I was there, and white wine consumption, which they've never really done before, has just gone through the roof, really. German Riesling's up 108% year on year. Oh yep.
Speaker 2:So there is there is a big market for sparkling and white wine, which is great.
Speaker 1:If the market's maturing, they're changing do they recognize australia as a good mark, like is a good place to get sparkling and white. They do, do they? She makes like.
Speaker 2:I've been there, so they do you're welcome for the people, that saying for the people that, yeah, just the people that I saw over there. And recently we had some KOLs, key opinion leaders, five KOLs from China out here. Yeah, why, victoria brought them out and I didn't attend the dinner because I was teaching, I think, brought them out and I didn't attend the dinner because I was teaching, I think. But my colleague who did said that they said that there are two regions that the Chinese know Barossa and Yarra. Wow, that's interesting. So, yeah, I don't know if that's true. Yeah, maybe they were just saying that because they were in the Yarra and they were having a free feed at Jane Nong's. Who knows. But I think, look, china is, it's a slow burn, it's not a silver bullet like everyone thought it was, let's position ourselves.
Speaker 1:Let's keep updating on China, because it's a really interesting story that's evolving, because when it opened everyone was really excited. Like this is going to save the industry and you know, let's see. Let's just keep updating on that. Okay, Our next story I'm obsessed with and can't wait to talk about it, and I think we could be here all night, but you have a really set bedtime, so maybe not Is nepotism holding back the Australian wine industry. I saw this as a headline and I was like juicy. So this is what happened. Wine Business Magazine is like a well, it's in the heading, we know what it is. They have a newsletter called the Week. That Was that. Pretty much everyone in the industry is subscribed to.
Speaker 2:It's our gossip bag for the week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. Now someone sent in an anonymous letter basically saying that we have a nepotism problem, and in the article that was written about it they were like oh you know they, they didn't give the letter in the wine show system specifically.
Speaker 1:Well, it wasn't necessarily, but they used that as the best example. So when they wrote about it they were kind of like they kind of laughed off the letter. But they did say, look, let's delve into the issue, because there's something interesting here. And it is true, because if you use the wine show system as an example, there might be something other way. Like look, when I read the headline I was like are we rebranding some like family businesses as nepotism? Because that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, there's no family businesses, but Well, I feel like the wine industry, of most family businesses that would exist in Australia, surely the wine industry would, have you know, outweigh other industries in terms of having a strong family sentiment in them, right?
Speaker 2:Not anymore. We like to sell that bullshit, but no, but it was interesting. Look. With regard to the show system, I actually agree with what he says so we don't actually know.
Speaker 1:All it says is it was a staff writer, which is interesting in itself. I'm like give me a name. Who wrote this?
Speaker 2:And then did you see Tom Carson's response no, Okay. So Tom Carson, big winemaker, big show person, said no, we don't. I know Tom. I respect Tom. He's part of the problem, not part of the solution. Oh my God, Because recently I was how many bridges do you want to bear on this podcast? I was reviewing the results of a wine show and I just pinpointed that there was a certain style that was just being awarded in this wine show and I was like there's no diversity being awarded in the wine show. Yeah, and I was like there's no diversity being awarded in the wine show and that is from a form of nepotism, a form of the chair picking the judges. They want that sort of align with them. Like you know, when I judged an inland wine show and I just absolutely slammed you riff, they were like, well, fuck off, you shouldn't be saying that, because it's not where I judge. Well, yeah.
Speaker 2:So they want people who know this stuff but also that can judge within where they think it should sit. So I do think there is, and I've judged on wine shows and I've sat there and listened to the chair of judges and just thought I just see there is a lack of diversity amongst the awards at the moment.
Speaker 1:I completely agree that if you are someone who has been given like a tap on the shoulder, like someone's nephew, you can come along and do this wine show thing. You're not going to step up and be like I actually disagree. I think this is interesting, that's right. You are just going to toe the line because someone's done a favour for you and you need to meet the expectations of the person who's done the favour for you, and I completely agree that that can only be harming our industry.
Speaker 2:So you've judged in these shows. If you were sitting opposite I don't know the head of Krug Champagne and you were judging Sparkling Wine, you're not going to turn around and go.
Speaker 1:No, that wine's bad when he's given it like 110 points.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You're just not yes, yeah, no. So there's definitely something in it. Look, I think it's really interesting and I would absolutely love our listeners' thoughts on this, so please DM us.
Speaker 2:My favourite is the counter-reaction of everyone. No, it's not coming from the people that I think are kind of partly responsible.
Speaker 1:We absolutely have a problem. But okay, so people in and you get into the wineage. And how many times have you heard this, meg? That people say, oh, in the winestry it's not what you know, it's who you know, and we almost say it like that's something to be proud of, but when you think about it, it's not. Is it? Because that is how we stay so mainstream, like that is how we stay so traditional, that is how we stay so white.
Speaker 2:And when we bring Europeans into judging these shows, we just cane them. Oh, they don't have a clue, they don't have a judge within the Australian wine show system. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:It is such a little club.
Speaker 1:So their opinion is not valid. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I loved this article and I do not blame whoever wrote it for not putting their name to it, but props to you. I thought it was a really good article. We'll make sure that we link to it because I thought they raised some really really good points. Now, the last thing I want to discuss, meg, because you know I love throwing in something about marketing, which is my passion point.
Speaker 1:The orange wine region has unveiled a brand new identity. So not only have they unveiled it, but they've clearly sent out a press release about it because it is in the news. So I got this from Wine Titles it is a drop above. So a drop above perfectly encapsulates the essence of our high altitude wine region in orange, new south wales. So they say that it is like a two-fold thing. It is because they are a higher elevation, but also because it's like a cheeky, like haha, we're a drop above everyone else. So I fact-checked it. Wine australia say that Orange is the highest vineyard area of our wine regions. So what is your take on the tagline and do you think that Australian's regions are doing enough of highlighting the differences between our wine regions?
Speaker 2:I think it's a great tagline Well done, yeah. But Orange is tagline well done, yeah, um, but orange is still got a long way to go before it gets recognized. They produce amazing wines, don't get me wrong. They're absolutely stunning wines. But awesome wine, yeah, but it's just, it's small, it's expensive and unfortunately they just don't have the grand recognition of a wine near a valley or an Adelaide Hills or other cool climate regions that are sort of producing these cooler styles of wines. But I think it is a great thing and we should have better regionalisation and we should actually shout about altitude.
Speaker 1:So I had a look on their website and I was looking for where this a drop above is showing itself and how it portrays in their copy. And what it says is diversity is key to the orange wine region. Diversity and elevation, diversity, diversity. I read the word diversity 10 times in their opening statement. Do you know what does my head in more than anything else? Every single wine region in this whole country says the great thing about us is diversity, and it does my head in Like I think it's a great thing that we're different to france and we're not only making two varieties in every region or whatever. But I do think that we need to broadly do a better job of telling consumers what is our actual distinction point. I love a drop from above because, or a drop above because I think that it's actually saying we're high elevation. That's what's different. But if I hear the word diversity one more time, oh my God.
Speaker 2:Well, we had this discussion actually recently about whether the Yarra Valley should have hero varieties. So in Chardonnay, and peanut?
Speaker 1:Great question, yes.
Speaker 2:Right, but then if we do have hero variety sorry, the happy couple are just walking past. It's been announced on the podcast that it's your anniversary tomorrow. So if we do have hero varieties, what about the people in the arrow valley that don't actually make those hero varieties? Are they going to feel left out? We're trying to be everything to everyone at the same time, and that's the problem and what is the question?
Speaker 1:are you trying to be everything to everyone at the same time? And that's the problem. And what is the question? Are you trying to satisfy the need of every single stakeholder by being everything to everyone, or do you do what's best for the broader region and identify something that will actually have a chance of cutting through its consumers?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, there's always that argument that if you elevate the region based on these hero varieties, that automatically there will be a halo effect and then you can shout about your individuality from that elevated position. But trying to, you know, convey that to a members-based association and to each member, because it's tough yeah yeah right, but I think it's great and good on them.
Speaker 1:I do too I, and orange is awesome.
Speaker 2:Orange has really good wines, just shout out to orange, except, unfortunately that you know, the natural people have taken their place.
Speaker 1:Name mean, unfortunately you're so mean to natural wine. Oh, you mean because orange wines are, so it's confusing. Yes, yeah, okay, fair.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's true, yes.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I love that orange wine. Yeah, are you talking about a skin contact?
Speaker 1:No, that's confusing. I see how that is really confusing, yeah, well, look, I only have the free version of zoom and we have a minute 30 to go and we have absolutely crushed this timing. So, um, that's all for us this week. Thank you for joining us. Um, particularly on these news episodes, we want to hear your feedback, we want to hear what you want us to talk about. Even if you've seen an interesting article or something, send it to us. We'll talk about it. But, look, we're going to leave it there for this week. Meg, good luck.
Speaker 2:Two more weeks, two more weeks and then all the exams and stuff. But nice to see your lovely face. Aren't you coming in to having a drink with us?
Speaker 1:I'm gonna come in soon. I'm gonna come visit. I'm gonna bring the baby. Okay, it'll be really fun. Okay, um mag, I will personally see you soon and everyone else. Enjoy your next glass of wine.
Speaker 2:Thank you, drink well, bye.
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