Wine with Meg + Mel
The fun + frank podcast which helps you navigate the world of wine. Hosted by Australia's first female Master of Wine Meg Brodtmann, and self-titled Master of Sabrage Mel Gilcrist.
Wine with Meg + Mel
Chinese wine - yep, you read that right
Chinese wine is making waves in the global market with premium producers like Silver Heights showcasing the potential of regions like Ningxia through biodynamic viticulture and French winemaking techniques. We taste and evaluate two high-end offerings that challenge our expectations and reveal the rapid evolution of China's wine industry.
• China ranks as the 12th largest wine producer in the world
• Chinese wine industry began serious development in the late 1970s when the country opened to foreign investment
• Ningxia province is gaining recognition for quality Cabernet Sauvignon production
• Silver Heights winery produces biodynamically and organically grown wines using both Western philosophies and Chinese principles
• The premium Chardonnay ($89) shows beautiful minerality, green papaya notes and well-integrated oak
• The Cabernet Sauvignon ($115) displays intriguing local character with notes of shiso leaf, shiitake and tea
• Chinese wine evolution mirrors Australia's development in the 1980s with young vines still finding their identity
• Drastic continental climate in Ningxia requires vintners to mound snow over vines during winter
• Chinese wines are increasingly available in Australian specialty wine shops like Cardwell Cellars
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Hi and welcome to Wine with Meg and Malek here to help you navigate the world of wine. I'm Malek, the priest from my Master of Wine, Meg Brotman. Meg, we are doing something so different today and it's so nice that on Season 4, we are doing something that we really haven't even touched.
Speaker 2:We're doing China and the reason we haven't touched it is it's been very hard to find wines and being you in your organisational arc or era, I'm not sure which one. An importer has sent these wines to us, and it's really exciting because I've had Chinese wines, obviously in China. My husband's made wine in China. He's brought wine back and we've always sort of tried them straight away, but it's interesting to see that they're starting to be imported into Australia. So congratulations on doing that, and China is the 12th largest producer of wine in the world.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. I feel like most people don't understand how much of a big deal the Chinese wine industry is, just because I mean I guess they don't export much, right?
Speaker 2:No, they don't export much and they kind of did what we did. So Shandong province, which is quite humid and wet but it has really good infrastructure, so it's near a port, it's not that far from Shanghai and Beijing, so they planted there and it hasn't. You know, they can grow grapes there, certainly, but the disease pressure is quite high because it's humid. But then they've obviously come in and looked at different parts of China and I think we're looking at Ningxia, which Mark Robertson, who is the head of TWI so he's a entrepreneur for Treasury Wine Estate said to me about 10 years ago Ningxia province is probably going to be the best Cabernet out of China and it's extraordinarily good Wow.
Speaker 1:Have you tasted much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have.
Speaker 1:I've had quite a lot of Cabernet, and what's your take on general Chinese?
Speaker 2:vine A little bit of an overuse of oak lighter bodied in style. So they're heavily oaking them but there's not as much grunt. But the vines are still relatively young, so let's give them time. It's like Australia in the sort of 80s and almost 90s when we were planting, planting, planting, planting, planting. Yeah, I've had. There's got Cabernet Garnet I'm not pronouncing it, it's G-E-R-N-I-S-C-H-T Garnet, which is apparently Carmenere. Oh, not a great variety that I would be planting in that region.
Speaker 1:Let's go back a bit and talk about why even is, why are they making wine in China? Where's this come from?
Speaker 2:Well, they've always made, you know, sorghum, wine and Baijiu. So there's spirits. And then with the opening up of China, obviously in the sort of I'd say starting in the 70s yeah wasn't a big movement, but certainly into the 90s there was that westernization and more of an understanding of western society and acceptance of western society and aspirational yeah and so wine was part of that aspiration, and I was talking to Yuri, who works with us, and she said that the 90s in China are considered like the golden age.
Speaker 2:People were increasing their wealth. It wasn't as crazy fast-paced as it is now yeah, but people had they could invest and by working hard they would get somewhere. Yeah, okay, and now there's a little bit of a belief that by working hard you're going to have to work extra hard to get to the same place. So the 90s are considered to be quite a good spot and I think the information from this winery. They said in 1978, was it Mowat Hennessy that went over there to China and invested.
Speaker 1:I did read that. So this is Silver Heights Wines is what we're going to be tasting. And yeah, what did they say? So they started in the 70s. The country opened up to foreign investment, so first agreement signed was between LVMH and Remy Martin, and that's early history of investment from Bordeaux Houses, but it is now owned by a family.
Speaker 2:Think about China and the vast landscape. It covers everything from the Gobi Desert right through to, you know, subtropical, down at Shenzhen and Guangzhou, and then you've got the sort of dry continentality in Sichuan and then it's a little bit more coastal. It is a massive country. There's got to be great terroir in there.
Speaker 1:I heard that like isn't around Helen Mountain and stuff, don't they have vineyards in like greenhouses?
Speaker 2:Well, in the Helen Mountains they do have to. They mound snow over the vines.
Speaker 1:Maybe that's what it was. There was something interesting.
Speaker 2:So during winter they mound the snow over the vines, so the snow freezes, not the vine, even though the vine is in dormancy. That's why they do it, but it is super continental warm summers.
Speaker 1:And, from what you've seen, is most Chinese wine that you've tasted. Is it more in the premium end or the more commercial end? And or like, can you not?
Speaker 2:generalise Two things. One and I'm talking about early 2000s here and into the 2010s, and that may not be true now. I have not kept up with my China law, but back in those days you could import wine from anywhere in the world and blend it with Chinese wine, and as long as there was 5% Chinese wine in there, you could call it wine from China.
Speaker 2:Surely that's not the case now so many years ago, not so long ago, when I was still living in Chile in the 2000s, janis Robinson said having done a tasting of Chinese wine, it amazes me how much it tastes like Mipo Cabernet. And I can tell you for a fact that we were exporting in bulk container loads of barrel-aged high-core Mipo Cabernet from Alto Mipo, so really high-quality Cabernet at back then $18 a litre.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, at back then $18 a litre in bulk 24,000 litres that was going into a bottle that weighed four kilos oh wow and was sold at the premium end. So yes, they tried to premiumise very early because there's a lot about status and aspiration and face in the Chinese culture. I think now, because wine has become more acceptable you're seeing the young, cool things there's more of these, what they call bistros in China now. So for aspirational living, it's what we would basically call a restaurant. So it has a wine list and it has a single plate that you have rather than share food.
Speaker 2:So they have really good wine lists and people want to buy them. The Chinese wine is sort of slowly making its way there. They're still very young, they will get there. They probably haven't even tapped the best place to grow the grapes.
Speaker 1:Well, this one that we're looking at today, silver heights wines. They are definitely in the premium spectrum. So apparently, in jancis robertson's 20 you know 2010s a while ago, but still well, that list of wine, this was named. This was the highest scored chinese wine. Um, this is all estate grown fruit and it's also biodynamically and organically grown. And this is interesting. It says using Western philosophies but also Chinese principles, so it looks like Western philosophies might be a selling point. Fungicides yeah, well, true.
Speaker 1:Well, not yet true, because it is such a dry continental climate.
Speaker 2:They can probably do organic and biodynamic yeah, so the disease risk is much, much lower.
Speaker 1:So, for context, the Chardonnay we're going to taste is $89 and the red, which is a Cab Sav, is $115. Wow, so we have premium Chinese stuff here.
Speaker 2:It's a shame you didn't. You should have held that back from me before I tasted the wine. Is it barrel fermented?
Speaker 1:It is so this 100% Chardonnay made in a Burgundy style. It is 100% new Burgundy oak for eight months.
Speaker 2:New Burgundy oak for eight months. New Burgundy oak, the Bordeaux graduated winemaker Emma Gow. Elegant and artisanal wines that perfectly reflect the terroir of Ningxia, aged for eight months in new Burgundy oak barrels. Someone needs to help with their marketing. So obviously, the Cooper is burgundian. The chardonnay reserve shows a beautiful capital b green apple, accompanied by plenty of tropical notes, packed of papaya, banana and apricot, along with a creamy texture on the palate. A fantastic wine. Fantastic wine to be served with poor tray or to enjoy on itself. Okay, Some English would be good.
Speaker 2:That's pretty delicious, meg, you're so mean I know it is yum, but the thing is, if you're going at the premium end, go premium. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:No, it's fair, that is yum, is it worth $89?
Speaker 2:No, could I mistake that for a Yarra Valley Chardonnay? Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, could I mistake that for a Yarra Valley Chardonnay? Yes, yeah, you could. I think the oak is evident. It's got this beautiful round finish which I absolutely adore, and I actually think that you can taste, I guess, the premiumness through the oak.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's quite a bit of minerality to it. There is that green papaya which I really like in it. The acid's perfectly in balance. The oak is really well integrated. It is a delicious wine. It is, but 90 bucks is a stretch for me.
Speaker 1:What makes me think?
Speaker 2:Because you're in Burgundy territory there.
Speaker 1:I just, if you gave me this Chardonnay, I'd be like this is delicious, it's amazing. I might have called Margaret over. Oh really, yeah, I think so, but the point being it's not setting itself apart. I don't know how it's meant to, but I mean, what do you want from a Chinese wine? Do you want it to look like our wines? I almost wish it was kind of different.
Speaker 2:Come on. Chardonnay is an international grape variety. Chardonnay will speak often more than where it's grown.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:That's why it is a grape variety that is planted throughout the world and, to be honest, we've got nothing to reference it against. Yeah, yeah. So if I was doing the marketing on this, I would put it up against other Chinese Chardonnays. It would be hard to we say. I say that I don't really like comparing wines in the Yarra Valley to other wines of the world because I want them to be standalone. It might still be very early days for Ningxia, but that is a really solid, good quality wine.
Speaker 1:I think it's really delicious, and so maybe we got the LVMH stuff wrong. Maybe it was more the region we were talking about, because this winery was founded in 2007 by Emma Gow and her father.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the LVMH stuff was the region yeah okay, got you.
Speaker 1:So it's all indigenous yeast, minimal filtration. They are really using nice forward progressive winemaking and I think it's a really beautiful expression of Chardonnay. Good on her, and I mean.
Speaker 2:Emma, I've got one thing Heavy bottle Lightweight bottle babe, and you're up against the taxes. So you know this would not be that expensive in China. But again, aspirational, Don't aim high, Don't stuff around Like. That is a good wine. It can only get better year on year, that's delicious Yep. I would buy it, but I'm not going to spend $90 on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fair, and if anyone, I mean they're in the show notes but interestingly there are a couple of places that you can get this. So if you Google Silver Heights, it's not anywhere that is like a major retailer but there are some smaller kind of bottle shops and stuff that you can get it delivered from.
Speaker 2:Now we've got a Cabernet. Is that correct? It is a Cabernet. Now, as I said, mark Robertson many years ago he's one of the entrepreneurs at Treasury Wine Estates said to me that Ningxia makes great Cabernet. Pete went over there a few years ago and did the Ningxia Wine Challenge, where everyone was given. They brought in a whole heap of winemakers from around the globe and given fruit off the same block, theoretically, and they all had to compete to make wine. It's definitely continental, so one would argue that it's better suited for Chardonnay just going off absolute theory, not having been there. But Cabernet has a long hang time. So often in these continental regions you have these long autumns, so riesling might be a better bet than chardonnay yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:I wonder if it's less compatible with the chinese palette well, my german reasoning's got year and year bit sweetness, but it's not as um, it's not as premium.
Speaker 1:Chardonnay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this smells so good. I do want us to do an ultra premium Riesling Chardonnay Mate. Don't even talk me into that. Yeah, because we often drink around that $35 and say how great it delivers at that point. But let's have a look at it 80 and over. Well, I think we'll go all over the world, okay.
Speaker 1:Deal.
Speaker 2:How good does that smell? It smells like Cabernet. I'm a bit worried that it's. Is that just frost in my glass? Oh, it's not crystals, it's all good.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:That's pretty good.
Speaker 1:It tastes aged. It's a 2021. We're in 2025. Yeah, four years.
Speaker 2:It is starting to develop a tertiary touch, so it's 100% Cabernet Sauvignon 12 months in, 50% new French oak and 50% in neutral oak.
Speaker 1:It's got really nice tannins as well. They're nice and soft for a cab. Yeah, yeah, it's got a wee bit of herbal note not herbaceous, not underripe, but that herbal note which you know I love because it's kind of Yarra.
Speaker 2:Valley-esque. We have that, so I have to justify it everywhere. For me, there's a slight little bit of bitterness at the back, but again, this is a serious wine that needs food. This is not something that you're just going to be drinking on its own, so that bitterness is going to support beautiful Wagyu beef high-end steaks.
Speaker 1:Okay, here I love this in their tasting notes. So they kind of lead with Western. So they're saying coca, toast and nutmeg, but then they've gone, complemented by, and they've thrown in some of their clearly more local tasting, like what they taste in the wine, which is shiso, leaf, shiitake and Prua tea savoriness.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, that's really lovely, I guess.
Speaker 1:The shiitake, yeah, yeah, absolutely More of the dried shiitake mushrooms and I totally I don't know what Prua tea is, but I smell a tea. Now that they say it, I'm like there's a tea there.
Speaker 2:And the t bit black tea-y as well.
Speaker 1:This is a bit more interesting to me. The Chardonnay was clearly premium, clearly really good, but not clearly Chinese. There's something different enough about this Cabernet that. I think, if so, when we do wine shows, everyone brings a bottle, right, and it's the most freaking stressful thing in the world that there's all these judges and you've got to bring a bottle of wine and be like. Here's what I, you know like for a dinner, when a bottle of wine and be like. Here's what I, you know, like for dinner, when you have a dinner the night before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everyone brings the most beautiful, amazing stuff and I'm always like, oh, my God, I hate that.
Speaker 2:I have to bring something. You bring a magnum of Marsan from Tbil.
Speaker 1:No, that's when you go, I don't know. I think Chinese wine. If you rip down a Chinese wine, that's when you go really odd around the $35 mark.
Speaker 2:You find the oddest wine and just say, oh look, this wasn't very expensive, but it's super interesting and no one would have bought it.
Speaker 1:That's true, that's what I do, but I mean if you're part of a wine club or if there is, Because they're all just putting their dicks on the table. It's a big dick measuring competition, yeah, club. Or if you're part of something where you do kind of want to bring something different. I feel like putting a Chinese wine on the table is going to get you a bit of kudos.
Speaker 2:As I said, there is a shop in Melbourne that is selling quite a few Chinese wines and they start at around the $35 mark.
Speaker 1:I can't find anything cheaper. Cardwell Cellars yes, is that it? Yeah, so.
Speaker 2:I think we should do an episode, but these are you know $180. $115. Okay, bargain.
Speaker 1:No, it's a lot of money. Yeah, look, it's a lot of money. It is but rarity.
Speaker 2:we don't know how much they produce, but it's very good wine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that is it for Chinese Wine. Maybe we'll come back with another episode and explore it a bit further, but until then, enjoy your next glass of wine. Drink well Sweaty, and we're done.
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