Wine with Meg + Mel
The fun + frank podcast which helps you navigate the world of wine. Hosted by Australia's first female Master of Wine Meg Brodtmann, and self-titled Master of Sabrage Mel Gilcrist.
Wine with Meg + Mel
Cellaring white wine: how to pick an ageworthy bottle
Meg and Mel explore the fascinating world of ageworthy white wines, examining which varieties cellar best and how to identify bottles worth laying down.
What Meg's drinking: 2023 Marchand & Burch Mount Barrow Pinot Noir $72
Wines tasted:
- 2024 Howard Park Great Southern Riesling $36
- 2014 Howard Park Great Southern Riesling
- 2024 Scarborough The Obsessive Semillon $35
- 2018 Scarborough The Obsessive Simillion
- 2023 The Obsessive Chardonnay $45
- 2019 The Obsessive Chardonnay
Key things to remember:
• Acid is the most important factor for aging white wine successfully
• Look for moderate alcohol (12.5-13.5%), good concentration, and varietal expression
• Riesling, Semillon, and Chardonnay are the three main varieties suitable for long-term aging
• Hunter Valley Semillon transforms dramatically from delicate lemon-citrus to complex honey and toast
• Aged Riesling develops kerosene, marmalade and preserved lemon characteristics
• Chardonnay requires quality oak treatment to age well, peaking around 10-12 years
• Cheaper Riesling and Semillon can still age beautifully, while inexpensive Chardonnay will not
• Buy a dozen bottles and taste one each year to experience the aging journey firsthand
Join us next week as we explore German wine ripeness levels, diving into Kabinett, Spätlese, Auslese, Trockenbeerenauslese, and more!
Follow us on instagram @winewithmegandmel
Hi and welcome to Wine with Meg and Mel. We're here to help you navigate the world of wine. I'm Mel Gilchrist, joined by Master of Wine Meg Brotman, and look, every now and then there's an episode that you know. Sometimes we decide because people ask us to do episodes. Sometimes we realize a trend and we want to do it, and sometimes there's just things I really want to taste, and today might be one of those. What are we doing, mel?
Speaker 1:wants to drink on the weekend. We are doing how to age wines, or wines worthy whites worthy.
Speaker 2:How to pick a white wine to age.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:And because we did talk just a couple of weeks ago about how, all of a sudden, for the first time like ever, there's all these white wines that are being aged because WineArc put out their yeah, their collectibles, yeah. So it felt like a good time to talk about how do you age a white wine? How do you even find or choose a white wine? How do you know if it's going to age? So we're going to go into that, but first, meg, tell us about what you've been drinking.
Speaker 1:So I had a Marchand and Birch Mount Barker Pinot Noir 2023. I think it's the first time I've had a Mount Barker in WA, wa Pinot.
Speaker 2:Really delicious. I'm not super familiar, okay.
Speaker 1:Cherry, you know. A bit of minerality to it, lovely tannins. It was just a very drinkable, beautiful drop. We've been having a run of quite hot weather here and it was just something that I thought was really yummy, and we had it with egg and bacon pie.
Speaker 2:Oh right, or bacon and egg, depending on where you are. It looks like it's worth like $72, meg Okay, depending on where you are, it looks like it's worth like $72, meg Okay. Well, you're like I had it with a pie it was lovely.
Speaker 1:I'm one of the people they did send it to us. You're not one of the people anymore, so I would. I would look seriously. $72, it is a very, very good wine. All right, it's definitely worth a try. Particularly, it should be a good region to go Pinot, because it's cool climate. I've never had one from there and it was a really good expression and it wasn't mimicking from somewhere else. Do you know what I mean? There was a level of distinctiveness about it that set it apart. It was good, but I didn't realise it was $72. No wonder I enjoyed it so, but I didn't realise it was $72. No wonder I enjoyed it so much. It does make sense. I can pick quality, jesus.
Speaker 1:Fun fact, this might be something that you know about Champagne shipments have dropped to a level not seen since the turn of the century. Jesus, I knew it was low, but I didn't know that was the answer. In 2023, it dropped 27.6 million bottles from the 2022 levels and then in 2024 it dropped 9.2% from the 2023. So overall, it's dropped in the last two years 50% sort of levels, still running at 271.4 million bottles a year. But they interviewed a number of people. I think this was a drinks business article. They interviewed a number of people in Champagne and Subway and they're just like well, really, the world isn't a very great place at the moment, so there's not a lot of Champagne moments.
Speaker 2:Dad, and no one can afford Champagne. That seems more was that too obvious like what?
Speaker 1:okay, clearly, affordability, um, I mean, that's cute as well. Yeah, I well, I'm going with that, but I think that's more reason to drink champagne rather than less reason that's true australia. I mean, we really hit. You would know better than me, but we really hit above our population levels in terms of our champagne consumption, don't we?
Speaker 2:Huge like compared to the rest of the world. It is insane. It is something I'm really proud of. If we're going to be patriotic for anything, you should be proud that our country drinks a lot of champagne. But I will counter your fact with some good news is that sparkling wine from Australia is doing well, and so another option is that, yeah, people are just trading down to Australian, which it's a tough thing right In the drinks industry. We do want people to be attributing value to what we make and spending. You know spending money as much money as we can get but at the same time, it's really nice that at least that money's going towards australian. Yeah, that's great stuff. Instead, a little bit of glimmer, yeah, but I I do see your point about um no occasions, and I sent my brother home with a nice wine he babysat for me last weekend and I said to him just drink it like, promise me you won't put it in your wine rack and forget about it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Because people just are like, oh, there will never be an occasion. It's like just make an occasion Just eat, just drink it.
Speaker 1:We are all into everyday luxury at the moment. Yeah, Because you know you can't probably afford to eat it as much as you used to or as frequently. Yeah, so why not, with your egg and bacon pie, have a $72 bowl of wine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there we go. I see why you did that. You brought it back really nicely, I justified my indulgence. Yeah, yeah yeah, that was good. That was good. Okay, let's get into it. What we've done is what we've got three grapes. Why don't you go through it?
Speaker 1:So we've got, I think, the three main varieties that you would age, Semillon being one, riesling being the other and Chardonnay. Now, of course, there are other varieties Marsans, some high-level Viogniers, you know age what other?
Speaker 2:grape varieties.
Speaker 1:Fiano. I'm not a fan of piano, to start with, um, but there's really not, because things like you know, sauvignon blanc designed to be drunk in its youth, although if you're drinking a high level sauvignon blanc, say, out of pestac lignon in in france, and they are designed to be aged, but they don't have that grassiness. There's much more minerality and blackcurrant leaf and elderflower characteristics. Some of the Sauvignon Zadeh say Pouille Fumée and Sancerre should be aged, but mostly when I was actually in Dan Murphy's the other day, they've got their cellar release and the whites were Riesling and Chardonnay. That's all they had on their cellar release. So it was the collectibles. To be fair, it was the Lewins and everything and the Polish Hill Riesling.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, you need, you can age anything. Yeah, but when we're talking about aging, we want it to improve and become more complex. Yes, not even improve, become more complex. And yes, not even improve, become more complex. I think because I love a young Claire Riesling. Yeah, you know, straight off out of the tank, current vintage 2025, drinking that in August. But I just, I also love something at 2018 and, you know, 2010 and with it, get, get more of that ageing tertiary characteristic as we refer to it.
Speaker 2:The funny thing for me with white wines is, say, maybe the big four in Australia would be Riesling, chardonnay, semillon, marsan would be the main things for the age and the first two are awesome, young and amazing and can be enjoyed their whole life. But the second two, semillon and Marssan, aren't necessarily that good, young I will say I know there's a more politically correct way for me to say that, but whatever, personally they can be really simple and neutral.
Speaker 1:Simple, that's right. They can be very, very simple and that's why I love the Semillons sort of half and the Marsans halfway through their ageing journey. So you've still got some of that primary freshness, that lemon and lemon piss, and then, in the case of Marsan, that floralness. But then you're starting to see some of the ageing character come through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do enjoy that kind of like five, six-year mark.
Speaker 1:And I've said it before, if you're going to buy a dozen bottles, put them down and then just do one a year and see how they taste. It's good fun. It's like a jigsaw puzzle almost. You know putting the pieces together.
Speaker 2:Okay, so to get into it, Meg. What are the specific things that we need to look for if we want to age a white wine?
Speaker 1:Acid. Acid it's the first one. I would say not too high alcohol around the between 12 and a half to 13 and a half percent, because that tends to suggest lower ripeness. Generally it will have more acidity, if that makes sense It'll have more natural acidity than something that it's 14%.
Speaker 1:Also, if you move to that sort of 14, 14 and a half percent, we don't really see a lot of whites at that. But you're moving the fruit like you look at Riesling. Riesling goes from green fruit to almost pineapple tropical fruit as it moves along that ripeness spectrum. So you kind of want something that's more in that green fruit, so a little lower. The other one that we forgot is shennan.
Speaker 2:Oh, shennan, of course, but I just haven't come up with. There's not many shennans in the world, Not in Australia. No, Anyway, you might find it what, mainly vouvray or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but yeah, in Australia there's not much Shannon, that you're aging Swan Valley, pretty much a bit of Margaret River now, anyway. So acid's the first, acid's first, moderate acidity, and then you want to taste the wine. If it's sort of simple and feels dilute, like someone's dropped a little bit of water in it, that's not going to age well, because that diluteness or lack of concentration of flavours will become more evident as the wine ages. You can't cover a flaw as it gets older. If that makes sense, yeah. So you want to hold it in your palate and let it feel like it's got some palate weight, some body, some concentration to it.
Speaker 2:That's interesting, though, because a lot of Rieslings wouldn't taste like that no but they've still got the layers of complexity.
Speaker 1:So it's a balancing thing. Yeah, because Semillon too can feel quite dilute, and simple on your palate.
Speaker 1:And it can also be quite simple in its flavor profile, but you've got to think of it in terms of the variety that you're looking at at its time in life. You want it to be the most expressive Riesling from 2025 from the Clare Valley. And I know, when I've judged young Semillons I have just I learnt from you know, ian Riggs, broken Wood, one of the greatest Semillon winemaker, probably their greatest Semillon winemaker, I think. Quick little flex, but yeah, yeah, well, the Tyrells, I mean there's a handful of them but they're very good. Yeah, he said, basically you're looking for some layers of flavour. It's not just lemon. They want some floralness and maybe some waxy character to the wine. So you're looking at the structure, but you do want that absolute, as he put it, battery acid acidity.
Speaker 2:You want it to have that searing city, because that's going to keep the wine and help it to live Okay and screw cap. So what about the fact that everything you've described so far could be found in some Sauvignon Blancs?
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, okay, as Sauvvin young, and that's the other thing.
Speaker 2:When reasoning ages, what characters do we get? Uh like kerosene, marmalade, preserved lemon as sovin young ages.
Speaker 1:What characters do we get? Mushy peeps, exactly so you want it to be getting still be delicious.
Speaker 2:So there is an element of even if you have everything, there are some varieties to just keep in mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because of a lot of Sauvignon that we see on the market and I'm not talking, you know, pessac sort of style or high expensive Sancerre, because their flavour profile is much more mineral.
Speaker 2:blackcurrant Could it be some fair age.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've had a few Okay, they're okay Pouffumé a few of Didier Degeneau's wines and look, they're interesting. But I don't think there is the flavour. Complex array of flavours, yeah, okay, but a Sauvignon Blanc at, say, $35 is made to be enjoyed young.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That's the whole point of it. Yeah, and you know Riesling can settle both of those Semi-young, I would argue a lot of them aren't made to be enjoyed. Yeah, that's fair In their youth. Yeah, I mean, I still really enjoy them, but they can be pretty tough little babies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they really can.
Speaker 1:All right, so we start tasting. Okay, let's do it. So we've got a Howard Park Great Southern Riesling 2024. So we'd expect to see that sort of green apple character lots of acidity, moderate alcohol, maybe some minerality, white florals this is quite lemony, yeah, like lemon apple floral. And we are using Coravin today. Oh my God, it's all very exciting.
Speaker 2:It is so exciting Season two or something we'll use Coravin because we're at your house and you're all fancy because you're an MW, so you have a Coravin, but since we've been at my house, we've been wasting quite a lot of wine.
Speaker 1:Well, I could have brought the Coravin over. You know, I'm just not that organised. No, this is a thing, no, so Mel now has.
Speaker 2:Thank you to.
Speaker 1:Thank you, coravin, yeah, coravin, for sending Mel and me some new Supplies. Supplies, but yes, it makes life a lot easier because I've got mine put away. It's got like a little bag thing and I just can never be bothered getting it out.
Speaker 2:Just the amount of wine that's not going to be wasted. True Is going to be phenomenal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2:This is game-changing stuff. Yeah, maybe we'll talk more about Corbin another day, but I am very excited, so good point there, meg.
Speaker 1:All right, riesling, yep. So the other interesting thing about this wine is it definitely has a higher level of dissolved carbon dioxide in it. Can you feel that slight little spritzy? It's not bubbly, it's not effervescent, it just has a little tickle and that keeps the wine younger and fresher for a longer period of time and also makes the acid look more prominent in the wine. If we shook that, end up in there.
Speaker 1:So when you're fermenting, obviously there's carbon dioxide formed, and the more you move the wine after fermentation, the more of that dissolved carbon dioxide moves out.
Speaker 2:So you don't move it. Yeah, interesting, like it's Coke, and the more you shake it it gets flatter Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but if you think about a Riesling, it's fermented in tank. It goes from one tank to another tank to get off its gross leaves. Then it pretty much gets filtered.
Speaker 2:That's it. For anyone that doesn't know, gross leaves is the term. Meg doesn't think leaves are gross.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't think have we talked about that before I can't remember.
Speaker 1:Gross leaves are the big thing of dead yeast cells at the bottom of the tank. Gross just it's lees is the term we use. Gross is, I think, from the French because it's grossly the same. Well, gross would be big, yeah, big, big lees, big lees versus fine lees.
Speaker 2:So what's interesting to me, just even before we go into the ageability of this one, God, it's different to a Clare or an Eden Valley, isn't it? It's I to the ageability of this wine, God, it's different to a Clare or an Eden Valley, isn't it? I find them a lot like softer and more approachable and kind of delicate.
Speaker 1:Definitely it's got that lime characteristic that I expect from Clare, but there's more of a light, delicate white flower characteristic and I still find there's a real minerality about it Big time. But the structure of the wine is not clear. It doesn't feel like a clear, no, it is more. It's a little bit gentler, it's almost like a bubble in your mouth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah it's gentle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very soft and gentle. It's a lovely wine.
Speaker 2:So that's the 2024, and we also have you got it, you got it, I got it. See, coravin. Okay, so while we're pouring this so the point of Coravin is basically we've put a new cap on it and then we're putting like a needle through the top, which means that only a little bit is poured out at a time, and then the machine puts a gas in that's going to sit on top of the wine in the bottle, and what that's going to do is mean that it's not going to be in contact with oxygen, and contact with oxygen is what makes wine go bad slowly. But this shouldn't. We could get weeks months.
Speaker 1:Yes, they claim three weeks. Um, okay, so not months, weeks. Yeah, well, there's different systems, but, um, it's so. The gas is argon. The argon, being heavier than air, sits on top of the wine, but it's also used to push the wine out. So the wine actually has no contact with air at all and it definitely, like the thing is I've never really tested it because my glass doesn't last longer than three weeks yeah.
Speaker 2:No, this says. With a Coravin Timeless system, you can preserve screw cap wine for up to three months, ensuring the last glass tastes as amazing as the first. We so need to test that.
Speaker 1:Okay. So what are you going to do? Keep a bottle of wine and then.
Speaker 2:Maybe this one, okay, or maybe it should be a red.
Speaker 1:Well, no, you can do that, and then I'm not allowed to put the bottle in front of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we could do that. Yeah, we'll hold on to it and then we'll see.
Speaker 1:And so, but you need to keep taking more out of it with the caravan, because this is.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll take a few glasses out. Maybe this is my question.
Speaker 1:We'll have one.
Speaker 2:I want to see your job is so it's three months Of one glass a month, and then there'll be one more Of one glass a month, and then there'll be one left.
Speaker 1:I reckon you could do it every fortnight, because if you're only pouring 50 mils, okay, I'll taste a little bit every fortnight, because you've got to make sure that, even to that last bit, where theoretically you would have more air in contact with it, that it will still stay as fresh. Yeah, so your job is to taste that bottle of wine every fortnight. Oh, no Homework, how tough. So this is a 2014, so it's 10 years older and definitely you've got the colour on it. And that's the other thing. When you're buying a wine to age, make sure it doesn't have any sort of orange or brown tinge in the wine. For a young wine, not for a betrothed sweet wine, you want it to be really fresh, preferably with a little green tinge, and this is definitely moving towards more of a lemon skin colour. The green tinge is still there, though.
Speaker 2:It's more toasty rather than like, marmalade rather than like cheese.
Speaker 1:Edit that out. Oh, oh, oh, edit that out. Oh my God, we just had a little bit of an alien invasion in our ears. We're all back on. The storm is fast, so start again. It was like a storm actually. Yeah, it was. It was like thunder.
Speaker 2:Okay, this is because we record DIY at home and not in a studio. So what was I saying? Yeah, what's interesting to me is that wait, what are we? 2014? So it's.
Speaker 1:Ten years old. Ten years Well, 11, but ten years older than the previous one.
Speaker 2:I think I would have expected. I haven't tasted it yet. Just on the nose there's not a whole lot of like caramel marmalade, like it's quite toasty at this point in its life.
Speaker 1:It's toasty. And the other thing is, with aged Riesling you know that kerosene smell. We don't want that to come in too early. Yes, so you want that to sort of start appearing at around that five-year mark. If it starts appearing at two or three years in, you drink it because the wine's just going to end up as that one flavour profile and nothing else. This has just got a touch of it. There's definitely toast. I get some honey on it. I get like a quince, a sort of baked quince characteristic. I mean, that may be a vintage variation, but there's also like a clotted almost creamy character.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is a real creaminess on the nose, like a yoghurt Really interesting. It is, but once again, on the palate it is delicate. It is more delicate than I was expecting.
Speaker 1:Jesus Working.
Speaker 2:But once again on the nose, it's delicate. It's more delicate than I was expecting, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I think that maybe that's the region. Yeah, yeah, because I'm with you If this was Claire or Eden Valley, eden Valley would have more of that floral character and would be a little bit more delicate in the palette but would still have that real fine sort of line. This is a little bit more of a bubble in your mouth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like it's like maybe like when Claire or Eden like aged their Riesling 10 years. It's the equivalent of someone like bursting through the door and coming into the house and being like hey, I'm an H and this is more like someone slowly being like hello.
Speaker 1:Yes, this is almost like a woman that's giving herself gentle Botox, aging Like she's slowly shifting into it.
Speaker 2:She's like owning it. She's owning it, it's good on her, but it's like it's just gentle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, yeah, like Helen Mirren, she looks bloody fantastic compared to, like you know, the Nicole Kidmans and everything with their faces just don't move.
Speaker 2:I know we're not going to put any women's appearances down on this podcast, meg Okay sorry. So this is yes, it's age's aging beautifully, but it's not um.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel we've done it a disservice, opening it well, it's under coravin, so you get to drink it for the next three months, true, no, but no I don't mean years I disagree there is not never one point. It's like they never ring a bell when the stock market's at its peak. Okay yeah, there's never one point where the wine is going to be perfect. It's always going to be different and interesting. That's like aging women it's fantastic. You know each step, each era is interesting.
Speaker 2:It's funny because, like Penfolds famously do, like their Grange tastings, where they use a Coravian, do they use? Yeah, they must use coravian, otherwise how are they tasting it? Because what they do is they taste the wine. They get the wine maker to taste it and then they say to you oh, you've still got 10 years, age it longer or whatever. Wow, yeah, do they still do those they used to. I remember those, one in sydney when I was up there.
Speaker 1:I know you can take your grain, replace the cork when your cork's stuffed. I'm sure I've heard you could be right. They offer it.
Speaker 2:It's an luxury brand, but yeah, yeah, but I mean that's just interesting because it is in contrast with what you're saying, but I love what you're saying. I think it makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just think it's, yeah, I just, I like the journey and the discovery. And then if you do buy, you know a dozen of these. I know you've got to wait 12 years to see how they're drinking, but then you know that, oh, it was drinking really well at six years. Yeah, or five years, or if you have the opportunity to buy.
Speaker 2:Riesling can go up to like 20 years, so maybe you need to drink one every second year. 30, 40 years, easy, all right, this is fun. Where do you want to go next?
Speaker 1:Semillon or Chardonnay Semillon, okay, I need to get the Coravin, the obsessive Semillon, the cottage vineyard, hunter Valley, and the thing that we both found very interesting here was that it's got the picking date. So it was picked on the 27th of January 2024. And then we've got the same producer, same wine, but in 2018, picked on the 25th of January 2024. And then we've got the same producer, same wine, but in 2018, picked on the 25th of January.
Speaker 1:So, literally almost to the day. Six years I was just doing the maths in my head a little bit slow. Six years' park yeah, that's super cool. So young, semi-young Lemon, white florals, lemon pith. I get sometimes an orange blossom character. Oh, that's a beautiful nose.
Speaker 2:It is such a beautiful nose. As soon as I smelt it I was like I take back everything I said about Tami on being boring. It is such a strong citrus, it's like a piercing citrus nose.
Speaker 1:I went to a sake tasting on Saturday and we bought a yuzu sake. Yeah, they described it to us as the Japanese limoncello, which did not bode well with me because I'm not a fan of limoncello. However, it's not really sweet, it's not, I'm not a fan of limoncello.
Speaker 2:However, oh my God, she must be the only person in the country. It's not really sweet.
Speaker 1:Ah, it is searing acidity. So it kind of has that yuzu citrus. You know how yuzu is like citrus on steroids. Yeah, kind of has that yuzu-y character. I'm all over sake now. I think we should do a sake episode. Let on, yeah, let's, it's cool. The thing is with semi-arm, you know, I know I said that you've got to have complexity of flavours. You don't have to have strong flavours and aromas. They can be delicate, but there is a lot of going in that glass. There's some things that I can't actually kind of describe.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love it, when that happens.
Speaker 1:It's almost like wheat hearts wheat germy.
Speaker 2:I literally know exactly what you're talking about. Like yeah, Do you know what I mean? It's like a dried something green. Yeah, it's like a dried grass.
Speaker 1:Hey, I think you're closer with wheat. Yeah, wheat, it's like a wheat germ. Yeah, I think you were closer with wheat. Yeah, wheat, it's like a wheat germ.
Speaker 2:Yeah, literally wheat like. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know I think I used to pick it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you run your hand up it. Yeah, you run your hand up it.
Speaker 2:I used to pick it and swing it around. It's like a wand, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, it smells beautiful and and then there's that lemon. There is that usually there's white flowers, but it is very, very delicate, but it is so that's gonna sound like a wanker, but so enticing like you just kind of want to get it into your mouth and taste it. And I know this is going to have fantastically high acidity.
Speaker 2:Yes, this is, I mean it's. Would you say this is classic Hunter Valisamion or do you think it's got a bit of a different edge than what you'd normally expect?
Speaker 1:It's a little bit more funky, but I love what it says on the back the obsessive, quietly spoken and one of the old guard of Hunter winemakers, patriarch Ian Scarborough. When I first read that I thought it read quietly outspoken and that's kind of what the wine is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool. So there's a lot there but it's very quiet in its. It's expressing a lot but it's very gentle in its expression 11.5%, beautiful. Yeah, they've only used free-run juice, so 450 litres per tonne, which is low. Stainless steel, inoculated culture, ge 16 degrees Celsius, pretty standard wine making. And this is the beauty about Hunter Valley Semillon you can churn that shit out really quickly.
Speaker 2:It's. It's not super complex, though Like there's some interesting, but it's well. It's not super intense in flavour, there's not a strong finish, it's quite crisp. It's almost like I want to have this with seafood and Fish and chips. I'm thinking tonight Like by a pool. My new thing is in Wessert. I make people tell me before we go into like the full SAT. I say either someone has to either tell me where you drink it, who you drink it with or what you eat with it. They always go with eat, which almost annoys me. I'm like think outside the box. Yes, what occasion. Tell me you're going to watch it in front of maths. Anyway, we're back on maths. I can always get us there.
Speaker 1:Aren't you supposed to be comparing what the wines to maths characters?
Speaker 2:No, because last time I tried the chick that I said was really cool, like literally before this episode dropped, she went a little crazy and I got a bit worried. I'm like, oh no, all our listeners are going to, so no more Maff's opinions from me.
Speaker 1:This has got what I expect young Hunter Valley semi-young to have, which is crisp, acidity, lemon, citrus fruit, delicate in its profile. But you know that it's going to get more complex and interesting with age and that's kind of the point.
Speaker 2:All right. So now we are moving to the age. So 2018 makes it Six, six years.
Speaker 1:Thanks, meg, I've already done the maths on it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you did too, Thank God. That is not my strong point.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm good at maths, except with nines. But did you know that all multiples of nines add up to nine? Nine nines are 81, eight plus one? No, yep. Do nines are 81. Eight plus one? No, yep, do it Mind blown?
Speaker 2:I don't know enough multiples to be able to do it, but 18, I guess that works. Yeah, two, nines 18.
Speaker 1:Wow, one, eight, three, nines, 27.
Speaker 2:Two plus seven, I don't understand maths, but it's mind-boggling I know, oh, my God, yum, I don't understand maths, but it's mind-boggling, I know.
Speaker 1:That's my hunt for goodwill hunting or whatever it's called Goodwill hunting. I think I confused that with the hunt for Red October.
Speaker 2:Okay, here's a question Do you think you could easily distinguish an aged if it was proper aged like maybe not Chardonnay take out Chardonnay and Shannon but Riesling Marsan, semillon? Do you think they're different enough aged that you could distinguish one?
Speaker 1:Yes, semillon and Marsan don't get kerosene characters. Really, they're not terpene varieties. Huh, and you need that terpene to turn into.
Speaker 2:That's crazy. In my head, Semillon does so. They need to be what we call aromatic varieties.
Speaker 1:Okay, semillon for me is honey, crumpets, toast and honey.
Speaker 2:And didiers, that's exactly what it is. Yeah, and it doesn't get that Creamed honey, yeah, creamed honey.
Speaker 1:It doesn't get that marmalade character Marsan. I've got to be honest. I'm not like you. I haven't spent half my life at Shadow to Bilk drinking aged Marsan from the very first Marsan that they ever made, so I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:But Hunter said I think Marsan is more. It turns quite creamy, like it gets that real like almost dairy-made. I know I did the same thing when I tasted it, meg, it is so good.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, it's a baby.
Speaker 2:How old, is it? Oh, it's so good. No, not yet.
Speaker 1:Six Six, no, not yet Right six, six, okay, again, it's got that delicateness. It's got that honey creamed honey toast. Still plenty of lemons. Still plenty of that yuzu characteristic I get a little bit of I call them green gauge plums, depending on what that is, so like a green gauge plum in there as well. It falls a little short at the back, but I think 2018 was quite a warm year, so although they picked on the same, almost the same day, so maybe I'm just talking at my bum, I don't know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:You know how sometimes I can see wines. Yes, I fully visualised this. So when I have a sip, I got a wave of this. It's really interesting because it's not in the front palate, it's not super upfront. I got this wave of this like toasty, creamy toastiness just exploded from almost from the bottom of my mouth up and outwards and around and started filling my mouth around. And then, as it was filling, this other wave of acidity has just come and shot straight through it. But both of them carried on what they were doing at the same time.
Speaker 1:Beautiful it's. Oh, I've just remembered something, sorry, it is definitely creamed honey, not honey. Oh, absolutely, I don't even know what creamed honey is. Oh, I do just remembered something, sorry, it is definitely creamed honey, not honey.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, I don't even know what creamed honey is.
Speaker 1:Oh, I do, it's delicious. No, I know what it is. What is it? I think it's just whipped, I don't know Right.
Speaker 2:So it's just Well. It gives it a more creamy sensation.
Speaker 1:But it smells different. It doesn't smell, it smells. It smells creamier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that somehow that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Did they not put any butter or anything?
Speaker 2:in it. Let's see.
Speaker 1:Anyway. So cream tonic, this is classic, semi-young.
Speaker 2:Too young.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I was wrong, it's been pasteurised, then it's resulting in a smooth, spreadable texture. So the heat obviously is changing, so it's pasteurising.
Speaker 2:Is it a similar thing to like melo or something like you're changing a bio, biological bio?
Speaker 1:bacterial, you must be changing. I mean, if you're hearing it, pasteurization, it must be um, I like failed science.
Speaker 2:I should stop talking to the masses just tell me to shut up this.
Speaker 1:This is not a science podcast. Anyway, back to the senior Cream toddy, yes, delicious, beautiful, just so good, just, oh my God, it's good. How much are these wines? Are they really expensive?
Speaker 2:Okay. So as a young one, it's 36. Let me, that's not the right wine, well, okay. So look, let me pop open one, Because we're organised now when people send us things.
Speaker 1:Mel's organised. Oh my God, that is such good wine. I just want to sit here and drink now. Okay, we'll put it up on the show notes. Yeah, you'll find out.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'll keep looking. Why don't you start pouring out Chardonnay? Because Chardonnay? Because chardonnay, funnily enough, is not one that I have. I've tasted the least aged chardonnay, oh yes, so maybe because I don't know I'm. I just love chardonnay. I drink it all. I'm not putting it down. No old book and all the other problem is knowing back. I haven't had much old Burgundy if that's where you're going, and it's clearly a sore point.
Speaker 1:Okay, the thing is, I think and I'm probably guilty of this is we probably buy more Chardonnay than anything else. Yeah, okay, but we also drink more Chardonnay than anything else, so it doesn't really get to the age. The thing is, if you are going to age wines, people, you have got to put them away, because if you just put them in your wine fridge, suddenly the dozen bottles are gone.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, absolutely, you're investing for the future.
Speaker 1:You've got to just forget that they exist and put them away.
Speaker 2:I had these people who, at the end of their website, came up to me the other day and they're like, oh, we have all this nice wine, but now that you mentioned that we shouldn't be keeping it in the light, it just sits in the living room and like the light blares at it all day. Oh, and I didn't want to tell them.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh, I was like, go home and drink it, just go home and drink it I didn't tell them it was definitely ruined, but I was like just keep it in the cardboard box you know, and that also your glass. Please, that also insulates it from um a little bit of vibration as well being in the cardboard box, okay, so I actually can't find the price that is selling on, so it might not be for sale. It literally might be a go buy it and um, not even on their website.
Speaker 1:No, Well, that's not very good marketing.
Speaker 2:Scarborough. Well, no, because they might be aging it. They might have just given it to us, because we're awesome $35. Yeah, that's a new one. I'm talking about the older one.
Speaker 1:Oh, you weren't yeah. Yeah, they might not be selling. You'd have to approach the yeah. So it's 35 for the 2023 2024.
Speaker 2:yeah, which is what we had, okay yeah, so you just got to buy it you and be really patient or get in touch with them directly and see if they can sell you this but that's the other thing about it is that they it's cheaper for you to do it.
Speaker 1:I know not everyone has a space. I understand that. Don't be too precious about having, you know, a wine fridge and it has to be absolutely perfect as long as you put it away somewhere in your house where there is fairly constant temperature. There's no such thing as constant temperature in anyone's houses, but fairly constant temperature bottom of your wardrobe floor. Keep it dark. Don't keep moving it around. You'll get the benefits of aging. So this is again Scarborough 2023, chardonnay. So this is from Hunter Valley.
Speaker 2:Interestingly for me I will put out a pretty strong statement is I reckon you could age almost any Marsan Semillon or Riesling that you buy, any Marsan Simeon or Riesling that you buy. I once got a case of like $12, like Jacob's Creek cheap Riesling. That was 15 years old and it was some of the best stuff I've ever tasted. Yep, but it feels like the same doesn't go with Chardonnay. So what's going on there?
Speaker 1:Okay, so Chardonnay to age well and to have good complexity and to have lovely flavors of that sort of nougat, toasted almond creaminess, needs some oak and it needs good quality oak.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay that costs money. Yep.
Speaker 1:So, with Mel's right, you can buy a $20 Riesling, even a $15 Riesling, and it'll be interesting. Yeah, it's not going to be the best aged Riesling, but it'll still be interesting. You're still going to get some of those characters, so definitely worthwhile. Mm-hmm With Chardonnay. If you bought a $15 Chardonnay, it would not be very nice. So go 30 and over and again. Hide it away.
Speaker 1:I think personally that Chardonnay doesn't age as well as Riesling and Semiel and Marçal. It doesn't tend to go as long. I think for me, peak time for most Australian cool climate Chardonnays that I've drunk peak time is around that 10 to 12 years in terms of aging. After that they develop it's all just tertiary characteristics and they lose for me some of the interest. Okay, that's a good note.
Speaker 1:I have had older white burgundies. The problem with a lot of old white burgundies is oxidation issues, because they use shitty corks and they don't use sulfur dioxide. So I mean the 2012 vintage in burgundy was pretty much written off because of oxidative issues, because region-wide they had a problem with cork and they had oxidation. So for me it's that 10 to 12-year mark, anything older. I'm not going to age my shardies, but a 30-year-old Riesling or a 40-year-old Riesling or a 30-year-old Semillon or a 40-year-old Semillon is just an absolute thing of joy, isn't it? Yeah, they hold the acidity you know and they're not high alcohol. And as the primary fruit drops off and you get all tertiary chardonnay, because it is about 13.5%, it's a little bit. The alcohol starts to sit a little bit above it. Yeah, so this wine, I think the alcohol feels 13.5. It's 13.7, which means it could be 14.2. You can feel the alcohol on this wine, but it's still quite struck matchy.
Speaker 2:No, it is. It's really really lovely style. I love that. Yeah, there's like a mineral. There's freshness, soft.
Speaker 1:Hunter Valley. Chardonnay is very underrated. It's, you know. I think it's a great region for Chardonnay but it is quite underrated. I guess you've got Semillon now, although Cyril's Vat 47, you know Chardonnay is probably one of the greatest Chardonnays out of the region, absolutely.
Speaker 2:All right, so we'll try. I always think, when I taste through the different Tyrell's wines, the HVD Vineyard is always my favourite, I think. I just like I think it goes so hardcore with its aged characters. Oh, absolutely, seems to be my vibe. Okay, so now we go. What's the second?
Speaker 1:Chardonnay, I've got it here 2019. So that's sitting at the first one. I've got it here 2019. So that's sitting at 20. The first one was 2023. The first one was 2023.
Speaker 2:So that's four years, four years difference, but a total of like what? Five years age, yeah, yeah, okay, so that's interesting. So it's not a lot like comparatively to what we've been doing today. So it'll be interesting to see what the difference is.
Speaker 1:No, but my guess is you should be able to see, and also with Chardonnay, it's more vintage sensitive. Yeah, okay, yeah, I think yeah, because it doesn't have that natural acidity. It's not an aromatic grape variety like Riesling is. Well, it's quite a developed colour for a four-year-old wine. So we had the Semi-Young that was 2018 and had no real colour development. Look at that. That's already showing a definite lemon character.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can smell it. You can absolutely smell that Age.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you can see the colour, but it's definitely almost a gold, not a deep gold.
Speaker 2:No, but like a Like a wedding band gold, yeah, yeah it is yeah.
Speaker 1:Not white wedding band, gold, nougat, ripe peach. So there's still some primary character in there. Oh, there's like a ozone sea spray.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm getting something green and danky, but in a nice way, not bad Like. I think it's beautiful. I'm really bad at when I smell something more, something more like, um, super savory and I don't know. I always use the word danky, which I know is bad. I'll stop doing it, but do you know what I mean? There's like yeah.
Speaker 1:I can see it, but I think that's what my sea spray, I think that kind of, is like. I'm gonna say this like a pond, you know it where it doesn't have, yeah, but in a good way, in a good way.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely in a good way. It smells beautiful. I'm lost in the nose. You're all right, get in there.
Speaker 1:So much more developed in terms of age than the previous, the Riesling and the Semillon.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Even though it's substantially younger than the other two in terms of age. So you're saying in terms of primary and tertiary characteristics. So fruit versus age characteristics, I think it's at about sort of almost 50% tertiary and 50% fruit, or almost 60%. It seems to be tipping towards more tertiary characteristics, and that's why it's important to taste your wines every year so that you can see where that balance that you like is sitting.
Speaker 2:And for me the finish it lasts for a really long time. Is that because it's got the oak to carry it? Yeah?
Speaker 1:The oak's more evident, I think, than the first one that we had.
Speaker 2:It has a beautiful finish, like it just goes, it carries, it stays with you. Yeah, it's quite nutty. It's super nutty, like a hazelnutty character Yep hazelnut.
Speaker 1:So for you WCT people, hazelnut is a perfect descriptor to use to describe Chardonnay, because it works for secondary and tertiary. You get a tick for both basically, so it's a good one to throw in. That is a good tip. It's for those people who are doing Level 3 and you get marked.
Speaker 2:Hey, I had a question the other day. You can answer this. Someone said dried. We're talking about Sangiovese and we're talking about dried herbs. They were like would you specifically call out different herbs?
Speaker 1:And I was like it'd be great if you could, but I don't know if I can In level three. You would have to. So what would you say what are some you could use? I would, for me, age sanchez has a dried woody herb character, but even that, so I would then go. Okay, what are the woody herbs? Rosemary, ah, oregano, thyme, sage, which of those? And my guess it's probably more on that oregano spectrum maybe we need to do a whole episode around herbs.
Speaker 2:We won't even taste wine, we'll just bring in. We'll just go to like a green ghost up beforehand, we'll just bring in herbs. Okay, let's finish up the Chardonnay, no one will listen to us. Yep, Okay, Look, I mean I think we've covered it right. The Chardonnay is so beautiful. We've got three different, really different examples of how white wines have aged.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's your take home message? My take home message is for me, semillon and Riesling are more surprising as they age. They're more exciting. They give me more of a ooh than Chardonnay. Chardonnay tends to just kind of know what to expect, but different regions of reasoning and the stems they have, such a journey through their ageing time that's a bit more interesting than Chardonnay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it makes sense and I think, yeah, like the other ones, transform, there's no other word. They transform in the bottle. It's almost like magic, it's beautiful, whereas the Chardonnay almost just evolves a bit.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, perfect, yeah, okay. Well, that was Transformation versus evolution. That was really fun. I will absolutely do my part for this podcast. And keep tasting that wine over time. Okay, that is how much you all mean to me. And keep tasting that wine over time. Okay, that is how much you all mean to me, and I will put myself on the line for this role. You're welcome.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Mel.
Speaker 2:Next week we are doing.
Speaker 1:German. Well, we're going through the German ripeness level. Someone asked I'm not sure who yes, so we've got a few wines, but we'll talk about ripeness versus sugar levels in German wines.
Speaker 2:That's it. When you message us, sometimes we follow through.
Speaker 1:Well, if Mel sends me the message but she didn't even write, she just wrote K-S-A that t and I'm sitting there going, what the fuck? And then I realized cabinage, bet leslie, our sleigh's in a tea truck and beer and our sleigh's in there was an ice wine, I couldn't put people.
Speaker 2:They're typing them all out. There's like 14 letters and also I was almost definitely gonna spell it wrong, so I was like I'll just put one initial of each. And you're a master of wine?
Speaker 1:Surely you'll figure it out. It's like a perfect crossword.
Speaker 2:I love this. It's going to be a fantastic tasting. We'll be doing that next week. We'll see you then. Until then, enjoy your next glass of wine and drink well.
.jpg)