333. Is It Regret… or Divorce Grief? Why Leaving a Marriage Can Feel Like a Mistake

There’s a moment after leaving a marriage that is hard to prepare for...

It’s quiet. Disorienting. And often filled with a question that feels impossible to answer:

“Did I just make a mistake?”

In this episode, I’m joined by Nicole Sodoma, a marriage-loving divorce attorney with over two decades of experience—someone who has seen behind the scenes of thousands of relationships, and lived through divorce herself.

Together, we unpack one of the most misunderstood emotional experiences in divorce:

👉 The difference between regret and divorce grief

Because what many women interpret as:

•  “I should go back.” 
•  “Maybe I gave up too soon.” 
•  “What if I ruined everything?” 

…is often something else entirely.

Something that deserves to be understood—not feared.

This conversation goes beyond emotion and into the real patterns that keep women stuck or second-guessing themselves:

•  Why financial fear quietly keeps women in unhappy marriages 
•  How not knowing what you want can feel safer than choosing change 
•  The subtle ways women misread their own capabilities and choices
•  Why so many couples wait until it’s too late to use the tools that could have helped 
•  What divorce attorneys see every day that most women never realize until they’re in it 

And maybe most importantly:

How to recognize whether you’re being called to pause… or move forward

This episode will help you name the thing under the thing—so you can stop questioning yourself and start understanding what your body is actually trying to process.

In This Episode, We Explore:

•  Divorce grief vs. regret: how to tell the difference 
•  Why leaving a marriage can feel like a mistake—even when it isn’t 
•  The role of the nervous system in post-divorce doubt 
•  Financial dependence, fear, and the cost of staying too long 
•  Identity loss in marriage—and how it impacts decision-making 
•  What women consistently underestimate about themselves in divorce 
•  The power of choice (even when it doesn’t feel like you have one) 

As you listen, notice:

Am I actually regretting my decision…
 or am I grieving the life I thought I would have?

There’s a difference.
And understanding it could change everything.

Read Nicole's Book: 

Please Don't Say You're Sorry: An Empowering Perspective on Marriage, Separation, and Divorce from a Marriage-Loving Divorce Attorney

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MyCoachDawn

Instagram: (@dawnwiggins)

Instagram: (@coachtiffini)

On the Web: https://www.mycoachdawn.com

A podcast exploring the journey of life after divorce, delving into topics like divorce grief, loneliness, anxiety, manifesting, the impact of different attachment styles and codependency, setting healthy boundaries, energy healing with homeopathy, managing the nervous system during divorce depression, understanding the stages of divorce grief, and using the Law of Attraction and EMDR therapy in the process of building your confi

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Nicole

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Darlings, I'm excited for today's combo because you are gonna meet Nicole Sodoma. She is a divorce attorney, who, wait for it, deeply loves marriage. And she has been in practice for over 25 years, helping all sorts of people navigate one of the hardest decisions of their lives. She sees patterns that the rest of us don't get to see up close. And she believes marriage and divorce aren't enemies. They're part of the same reality. Interesting. She brings so much honesty and heart to her work. And fun fact, I live in her hometown and I have met her mama more than once, which is how I came to know of her. I, of course, bought her book and then fell in love. Hi, love. Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary, the podcast helping divorcees go beyond talk therapy to process your grief, find the healing you crave, and build back your confidence. I'm your host, Don Wiggins, a therapist, coach, integrative healer, and divorce A. Join me for a fresh approach to healing grief and building your confidence after divorce.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Nicole, we are so glad you're here. Thank you so much. I was just with my mama this weekend. Aw. Yes. How is she? She's amazing. She was on the dance floor much longer, much more than I was. She was come on. Yes. Yeah. We're 30 years apart almost to the day. Yeah. And uh she it I get I have a hard time getting her to sit down.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

That's amazing. She also empowers women financially, specifically. She you two have a yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Yeah, she's such a powerhouse. Um, I've actually she put me on a panel in my hometown once with an investment advisory group. And uh we it was so interesting to me. It was a room full of women, and we talked about things that are really uncomfortable. And uh um, especially, you know, from a financial perspective, because I still firmly believe that finances is what keeps unhappy couples together.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Okay, we're let's not spoil the episode, but that's fire right there.

unknown 2:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

It's true. I mean, it's it's so um so anyway, she put me in a room on a panel, and I just I I'm always still so amazed when you ask somebody who's in a relationship if they'd consider getting a prenup, and they say, Oh my God, he would be so nervous. He'd be so freaking out over that. So I'm scared to ask. And I'm like, Well, you might have a problem if you're scared to ask.

Marriage Loving Lens On Divorce

SPEAKER_00 2:45

I digress. Wow. Okay, well, maybe we'll get into it a little bit more. So tell us a little bit about how you call yourself a marriage-loving divorce attorney. I am curious what you see that we don't. And you're also um divorced and remarried, so you've walked this path that we've all walked, right? What do you see as a marriage-loving divorce attorney that we're missing?

SPEAKER_01 3:14

It's such a good and complex question. Cause my perspective in divorce is my, you know, it's my whole life. I mean, I was talking, I mentioned a minute ago that I was dancing with my mother this weekend. Uh, I actually also danced with my father. Um, and uh, we took a picture together, and they are very divorced, and I'm 50. You know, I'm 50, and it is still awkward for me, and I think probably still awkward for them to pose in a picture with me.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Okay, wait. So that guy I met at the oyster roast was not your dad?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

No, no, no, because my mom is remarried. Okay, okay. 40 years. And um, and so, you know, I I am a little dismissive of people, especially candidates who apply as an employee to my law practice. I'm a little dismissive of someone who says they want to be a divorce lawyer because their parents are divorced. And the reason for that is that is such a small little piece of um of a bigger picture. And it's just such a such a narrow view. Um, and it is not what drove me to want to be a family law attorney. And by the way, those words are interchangeable divorce attorney, family law attorney. Um, just making sure we're speaking the same language. Awesome. But, you know, being a marriage-loving divorce attorney, uh, I'd say that it stems a lot from the fact that I never ever thought I'd be divorced. My colleagues, my friends, my family would probably have said I was the least likely person to get divorced. I'd been a divorce lawyer for 20 years almost. When you got divorced? Yes. And wouldn't I know what was gonna work and what wasn't gonna work? Like I have a a front row seat to failing marriages. And uh, here I was, you know, going to be a failure in the eyes of people who don't respect that decision.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

And now I did that so much because I was a marriage and family therapist getting it a voice.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

It's like, oh, so uh what is that? Um uh those who can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

And the yeah, and then something those who do they teach.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Yeah, they teach. Um and so that was not at all how I felt that at all, at all. And um, but one of the things that was, you know, spurred the interest for me to write the book was the other thing I had not expected was that the person I was married to was going to be so different in my perspective from the one I divorced. So I'd say like it takes two to say I don't, one to two to say I do, one to say I don't. And along those same lines, I'm like, the person you marry is not the person you're going to divorce. Um, and that I mean that in so many different ways. Um so it's they're just this big reality checks. But all that being said, if any of that makes sense, I'm so sorry that I'm scouted because it is such a complex question. I'm a marriage-loving divorce attorney because I see what that looks like. I see it from all angles. I see it, I love the idea of marriage. I think it is capable. I mean, I think people are capable of being married. I think that healthy marriages are amazing. And uh um, and I support them. And I have put together plenty of people who thought they were going to not make it. Um, I have been a matchmaker as um uh um like on the side as a side hustle. I mean, you know, it's not it's not a paid side hustle, right? Yeah. I've hosted, um, I hosted my first matchmaking mixer this year, which was really fun for me. Does it come from your client pool?

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

And from people who saw it online and drove in to the place where I live now and attended. You love love. I love I love a happy relationship and I want that for everyone. And so yeah, it makes me a little different. And um, and I'm okay with that. Um, there's so many tools that people have available to them that could make a marriage work. And uh and they don't, or by the time they realize what the tools are, it's too late. Um, and it takes both people to actively engage and using those tools that in order to make it work. Yeah, that. Yeah. So if you, you know, we sign up for it and uh we commit to it, and then uh you don't use the tools. And I am I didn't use the tools. I didn't you didn't use the tools. I don't think I used the tools. Okay. But it would have required my ex-husband to also use the tools. Right. And so we uh ended our marriage. So yeah, I don't and I don't know if I'd use the tools that it would have worked. But what I know is that by the time I had made that decision and recognized that it wasn't gonna work, I was like, you're the only person you can fix. You're the only person you can control. And by then it definitely seemed too late.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah. I I mean with a career, marriage, and family, that was my lived experience is that when most people got to counseling, it was too late. Like, not always. You know, there are exceptions to every rule, but it is very common from my lived experience that people wait way too long.

unknown 9:02

Yeah.

Counseling Bias And Late Help

SPEAKER_01 9:02

They do, because counseling is uncomfortable. And it's good when you're in the session and then when you leave, it's awkward. Um and that to me, that's for individual counseling and marriage counseling. It's hard. Um, and not everybody believes it works, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Uh no, I think most people coming in um have heard actually that like marriage counseling is the last spot before you go to divorce. So yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

That's the bias. And and I remember my ex-husband said something like that. If we find ourselves in marriage counseling, he said how you know it's over. So um, you know, it's hard to, and and you have to I always say, like, if somebody says, Let's go to counseling, you better go. Beat them there. Because there's something they want to say to you that they're not comfortable saying.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

They're not comfortable saying, right? And I think that is the piece about when couples go to couples counseling and they end up splitting, it's like something about that process just helped them become more comfortable saying the thing that was like maybe buried and it needed to be revealed. And there was this place where they could get to that out loud, maybe even own their own truth or become more aware of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Well you're like looking for that safe space. So, um, and that, you know, that person is going to hopefully provide that safe space or call you out on the thing that you don't want to say or that the other person doesn't want to say, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah, that's that's the whole thing right there. There's something that person doesn't feel safe saying. That's really, really powerful. So you started to allude to this at the very top of the session, and maybe you will look, I'm already calling it a session. Maybe you'll say the same thing, maybe you'll say something different. But what's a pattern you see over and over again? I'm talking about the financial piece, right? But but maybe there's that pattern, maybe there's another pattern you see over and over again where a woman thinks she might be making a mistake, maybe she's afraid she's making a mistake in leaving, but from your seat she's actually not making a mistake. Talk to us about any of those patterns you've witnessed over the years.

Money Fear And Personal Agency

SPEAKER_01 11:12

You know, um so often they uh, and I'm gonna I'm speaking specifically to women who earn less or are stay-at-home moms or women um who don't feel like they have control over their finances. And the decision to stay would feel like a mistake because they have no plan and they're scared to discuss it, they're scared to ask about accounts. Um, and uh so they stay. And they stay in an unhappy marriage, and they make lots of excuses as to why that's what they should do. And it it's then you won't hear faith. You, I mean, I don't hear a lot about, well, I I committed to this, or my faith um is the reason. Um, and the the other thing that I am always so fascinated by is while they're scared to make that decision for financial reasons, um, there is no promise that, or I mean, I guess there is a promise, but there's no guarantee that their spouse isn't going to come home and make that decision for them. For sure. There is a promise, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:30

But like it's certainly not binding.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Right. It's not. So then it's like that should be scarier to you than actually saying, Hey, what's in our account? And would it be weird if I have my own account? And what happens if something happens to you? And um, and uh what if you, I mean, you know, people do it in jest. Like, what if you leave me for a younger version? Like, listen, all of those things happen. Um, you're not gonna be the first, you're not gonna be the last, but why are we not preparing for that? Uh that doesn't show weakness, it doesn't show failure, it shows reality, it shows agency empowerment. Agency empowerment. And, you know, if you have children, I just feel like you owe that to them to know those answers because if the other person makes a decision for you, uh, you need to have the answers. Um, I was talking with a friend at the end of last week and said, it just sounds to me um like you're staying because you don't know what would happen if you left financially and just Uncertainty, right? Uncertainty, absolutely that I hadn't worked in 20 years. I'm like, well, why don't you go back and do that now? And she gave me three excuses why that really doesn't seem like it would be the smartest decision because she would only be making$40,000 a year if she started back up in an administrative role. And and I was like, Well, you gotta start somewhere, you know, like I know that's really gonna suck, but you're either gonna be in an unhappy marriage and that's what your children are observing. That's what they think marriage should look like. Is that what what would you tell your daughter if your daughter was in the same circumstance?

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Would you tell them today?

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Oh so you know, that was that was always uh really interesting to me. And I lived that too, you know. Like I remember my mother saying that she, and I we we did a podcast, my mom and me, she came on my podcast. You got her on your podcast? Yes. I love that. And uh, one of the things I challenged her to was she said that she didn't think I could make it without my then husband. Wow. That she wanted me to stay regardless. And um, and I th and I said, How how can you be so empowering? And then all of a sudden. Yes, and then and then all of a sudden decide that your daughter can't do it. And man, that was chilling for me. So um it's not unusual, you know? It's trying to figure out why that is, what is that stemming from?

SPEAKER_00 15:15

It's not unusual, but how many women cannot find enough belief in themselves?

SPEAKER_01 16:30

I think also it's because so many of us don't actually know what we want. So I mean, I I'm always jealous of someone has who has really good hobbies. Like how they spend their time when they're not working or taking care of kids or whatever. Like I'm always so envious. I used to, you know, we used to put on our calendars when we would go to the gym, like strategy meeting. Okay, you know, and then and then I changed that because I was like, surely they might the people I work with would respect that I need that time to exercise. But I never really got there. So like it's again, it's just interesting. Like I don't think that um a lot of women, especially as you get into your forties and fifties, know what they want next. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

So how do you figure out what you want next? So again, the uncertainty or the unfamiliarity. So I'll just stay here. I guess I'll just stay here.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Yeah, because well, and can't and then why not try to figure you could certainly try to figure it out there. And then becomes the evolution of the relationship. And uh the question will be are you evolving in the same direction in directions that may not be the same, but are you able to support each other in those directions? Right. And because that's going to be the challenge, right? But what what is the cost if you don't?

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Well, so many of us lost ourselves, right? So many people lose themselves. Yeah.

unknown 18:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

So the uh I love this idea. Like you can be in a marriage, you can feel empowered, you can be two independence and still have that connection. Collaborative life. Yes, and the intimacy and all of the things that probably got you together that you stopped working because you became a unit.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Yep. That's right. That's right. I think you're spot spot on. And I've seen it even in my own marriage, like my now marriage. I've watched my husband lose himself a little and go and have to refine himself, which he has, which is beautiful. Um I've watched me sort of get lost in work and whatnot, you know, and then find myself again. Like, yeah, there are these cycles, right? Of sort of hide and seek with ourselves and with each other, right? Because in periods of us finding ourselves, maybe there's more distance from each other, and then we have to sort of get back to that, you know, it is. It's it's in cycles if you're intentional about it. Otherwise, it's just, you know, spirals. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

And also, you know, recognizing how to support each other in that. So, because I'm a big fixer. So when my husband now brings home an issue from his work or from something he is working on, I immediately want to fix it. And that's not what he wants from me. He wants to just be heard and seen, right? So learning that in each other as you do that evolving is so important. So that might not come naturally for everyone. I don't think it does. I'm a marriage-loving divorce attorney. We have not really talked about divorce at all. We're talking about how to keep marriages together.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Isn't that fascinating? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Most divorce attorneys aren't talking about that.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Yeah. Yeah. Well, but I think that it's the it's a beautiful way to support your clients in avoiding regret, you know. Um that's so hard. But I think that women confuse grief with regret. And maybe you'll speak to that in this next question I have for you. Okay.

Losing Yourself And Growing Together

SPEAKER_01 20:23

I don't think that people go to attorneys to talk about how to heal their marriage at all or try to figure out where the grief is or what the regret is, however you coin it. Like that when you walk into a divorce attorney's office, they want to talk about the history of your relationship. Uh, they want to talk about the things that they are going to have to prove in the courtroom or in a mediation or arbitration in order to get you the result that you want. But you have to know what result you want, or the attorney is going to figure it out for you. And uh what is the cost, emotional cost. On every level. Right. On every level, financial cost, emotional cost to that decision that they decide they're going to make for you if you don't know how to make that decision. And in my experience is a lot of women would prefer that the attorney make the decision for them. Um that tracks is very costly.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yeah, that is very costly. That really tracks. That's interesting. How many people have you seen? I saw this just in the last year in my therapy practice. I saw a woman make an appointment with a divorce attorney, and by sitting in the office, it clarified that she didn't actually want to get divorced. And then she chose to actively use the tools in counseling. How many women do you see schedule consults and then it's clarifying and they change their minds?

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Um, I don't have data to support it. Uh but uh I will usually see them again. Right. You usually it's the exception, not the try. And even the couples like uh I always ask in a consult how it's one of my very first questions. I want to know how they met. But it just it that's it's not the sometimes it's not even the answer that I'm looking for. It's the nonverbal. How they tell the story. Yes, it's it's it is. It's all the other things. Um, it's how they remember it, how and then I'll ask why they think their marriage is ending, but I want to also know after they tell me their answer, I will also ask why the other person thinks their marriage is ending. And uh so and the answer the answers are never the same. And uh and so that's always very telling for me as well. Um, but even, you know, I it uh even if I send them back, them meaning either side, uh, if I send them back to work with a counselor or to use some of those tools, um, they might try it. But at that point, a lot of times so much damage damage has already been done that I end up seeing them back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense to me. Okay. This question I feel like is the juiciest question of the episode, but we'll see. At the point when a woman is deciding to leave or she has just left, what do you see women misread in themselves in that moment? What they're capable of.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

The choices they have. Oh, it's like it and honestly, like it kind of drives me crazy. But I think it's the reason that my clients choose me. Okay. Because like I'm going to remind them what they're capable of. And every time. Every day. Yeah. And and and maybe I exemplify it a little bit. Um, but like my I think that I get out of bed every morning to make sure that I'm lifting up people around me. That's that's what drives me. And I have found apartments and negotiated cars and leases and all kinds of things, opened bank accounts for people because they're scared, because they either because they it's it's mostly fear-based, but they don't know what they're capable of. Um, corrected pronouns. And what I mean by that is, you know, they'll they sit in my office and they'll say, he has a business, or he has an account here, or he has a retirement, and boy, is he gonna be upset if blah, blah, blah. And they're most of their pronouns are about him. So the two corrections are probably everything you've just described is not a hit his, but it's probably ours, right? It's probably a we. And then the second thing would probably rec would be letting them recognize what choices that they can make with what they know or with what they don't know. And there they're just a lot of aha moments um in that are, I think, really misread, misunderstood, uh, in the very beginning.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

I love that you said what choices they can make. And I think those two things are tied together: misreading what they're capable of and misreading the choices available to them. When I was getting divorced, I had a gratitude list going and I hung it on my bathroom mirror, neon green piece of paper with a pen hanging from it, so I couldn't miss it and I couldn't avoid it, right? Because I knew I needed to keep my mind right at the time. And one of the things I would very, very often put on that gratitude list was choice. And I think it's one of the things I am most grateful for in life most consistently, like the capacity, the gift of choice. Because we often perceive we don't when we do. And um man, we take that for granted, is my experience.

Misreading Capability And Choosing Wisely

SPEAKER_01 26:15

I think we do too. I mean, I I think about how easily um so many of the decisions that we make could be different if we recognize the choices like that. You know, I love that quote that um Victor Frankel is attributed to um in Man Search for Meaning, in the foreword, there's a quote. And Victor Frankel was a Holocaust survivor and um and wrote this book, but in the foreword, um it this is not exactly how it reads, but it says something like between stimulus and response, there is space, and in that space, there is the freedom to choose. And for him, obviously it was life or death, but we can apply that to everything in our lives. We can apply it to how we parent, we can apply it to the decisions we make at work, the decisions we make with our partner with or without conflict. I got an email this morning and I immediately was triggered. And I like I wanted to respond with just fiery. And instead, if I just stay for a minute, let me what is it that's upsetting me? What's triggering me? And then just respond with a fact. Like facts are not opinion, facts, you know, and and that changed the trajectory of my entire day and the person that was in the room with me when I was triggered. So it could have totally got us off track for the day. So all of these things happen. And the idea that when we make those choices that we're not impacting those around us is ridiculous. Like it's going to impact everyone around you if they're a part of it. And so you're it's it's really fascinating to me how we forget that very simple concept when we make those choices of, you know, how we want to respond and being more intentional about it.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

So from your seat, what's the difference between a woman who should pause and maybe revisit the tools and a woman who is grieving and she's uncertain and she's scared, but she still needs to move forward?

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Well, some obvious an obvious response to that is gonna be when there's domestic violence. But um to me, uh that's a non-starter, that's a non-negotiable. But everyone interprets, I think still even in today's society, we interpret what is domestic violence differently. Uh and I think in the court system, um and I mean, even I'd go so far as to say in social circles, like it just depends on what you see as abuse, and uh, that's a very subjective term. So, you know, 20 years ago, abuse had to be physical, um, or at least not had to be, but people assumed that abuse was only physical. Um, and that's just not the way it is interpreted today. Um, and then it's what is like how what do you think abuse is? So um, you know, I can describe some scenarios that I thought were completely normal. I don't I didn't see them as abusive at all. But if I gave those that those same facts to someone else, they might see that as abusive. So, you know, when I presented, you know, when you present something to your lawyer, do you think they're gonna see it as abusive or not abusive?

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Interesting. Is financial abuse something that has become widely recognized or accepted by the courts?

Abuse Financial Control And Legal Nuance

SPEAKER_01 30:01

So it depends on the way it's being used, right? Uh it it might be that, you know, one person is only giving the other person a specific amount of money. Is that financial abuse? Uh is financial abuse cutting someone off completely from the accounts? Um is financial abuse one person having all having all the knowledge and the other person having none? Um, so to me, again, pretty subjective. And it depends on how it's being used. If you are in a child support case and one parent is not providing adequate support and they know they're not providing adequate support, I think the court, the court's gonna look at that. Um if one person is intentionally not working for the purpose of not providing support or avoiding their own financial obligation, there's probably going to be a consequence to that. The same with spousal support, you know, depending on whether there's a calculator, depending on what the case law is. And equitable distribution cases or equitable uh apportionment, depending on what state you are, the division of stuff. Um, I had a case a long time ago where um the court, the presumption is it's a 50-50 split. Uh uh wife gave husband probably$1,500 to pay some taxes. Husband spent the money, and the court found that to be absolutely disrespectful. Um, and used that to suggest that there was financial abuse and that he should not be entitled to half the estate. He should be entitled to less than half the estate because that was a reflection on his credibility and character. Was this in South Carolina or North Carolina? It's a North Carolina case. North Carolina. So, you know, does the court obviously, obviously, it is always going to depend on your state. It is gonna be, you know, depend on your case law. It is also going to depend on your judge and how the evidence is presented. And like I said, like I would never have expected that particular judge to use that amount of money as the determining, like the thing. It was like the icing on the cake that drove her to make that decision. It was the right decision, given the totality of those circles. In totality, sure. But that was the thing. That was the straw. Yes. So interesting. Yeah. So like I'm I would bet that my client might not even have told me about that. Um, because it didn't seem significant.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

But I have the information and you know, dead learning lesson for clients, not with a plug right there for always tell your therapist and your attorney everything.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Like people protect or advocate.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Everything you don't know, right? Yes, we can't protect or advocate for what we don't know. Um, and I've got plenty of stories about, you know, my clients not telling me everything. Me too. Yes. Me learning. My one of my favorite stories is um my client had already started dating online, but what he had not told me, and I learned in open court, was that his profile picture was not of his face. Dear Lord have mercy. I guess I could have been about oh, I had a very inappropriate joke. Sorry. It would have flown here. We're we're all good with an appropriate It was not a picture of the head between his shoulders. Right, right, right, right. I I I appreciate that joke.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

That's the inappropriate. This is a whole sidebar that I don't really want to unpack here. We should unpack it over coffee one day, but I bet the case, the cases in North Carolina versus South Carolina are radically different. Like it's two different cultures, North and South. Very interesting. Never even thought of that.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

I mean, there are there are some similarities. Okay. Um, but and but you know, we could say the same thing for counties in North Carolina that are that have their own financial affidavits have uh questions on it that are related to farming and you know, manufacturing, or maybe in the textile in the counties where there's textile, there's so many uh local nuances that do make their way into the courtroom in one county and not the other. Um, same with states. Um, and I think of Utah as another example. Uh I had a case that came out of Utah many years ago, and they have pre, at the time, they had parenting plans prescribed for you. Wow. That um you kind of picked what you thought was going to be best. Whereas, you know, in the jurisdictions where we all currently practice, and there are 45 lawyers in among our locations of Sedoma, um, where we all practice the court, you know, what is in the best interest of the children is the standard. And there is no prescribed formula for what that's going to look like. Um, you know, no two families are alike. Now, of course, uh, we all kind of go to some standard schedules that we know that might work, but it's not, you know, it depends on what you're looking for in the courtroom or what you can negotiate outside of the courtroom.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Well, and as a therapist, like I it needs to be based on this kid and this kid's age and this kid's capacity and this kid's like re resourcing and this kid's emotional resilience or lack of. And I don't really think it plays out that way, but man, like no way.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

It doesn't play out that way. And in fact, you know, um one of the things that is, I'll go back to your what's misread, is that uh parents who decide they want a particular schedule in place for after separation, and then don't do the work with the children to make sure they have the coping skills in the interim. So, you know, let's say that you're doing a week-on, week-off schedule, but what you really want is for the children to be with you primarily, what damage, if any, is being done in the interim? And what skills do the children have to manage that relationship that maybe wasn't as strong as it was once before? And um, especially in a high conflict circumstance. So those, you know, that's age important. Their age is important. Do you know how to parent through that conflict so that it doesn't make the child align with you? Because alignment is obviously a big problem. Um and I mean, I've got stories after stories where people are not prepared for how to manage that. And then they get to the courtroom and let's say they prevail. Let's say they end up with that primary schedule. Well, what damage has already been done? Are you taking care of that? Is that where you spent an equal amount of time or more making sure that you were doing that piece?

Parenting Plans And Child Development

SPEAKER_00 37:27

So I cannot underscore this element enough. I, the other day, my daughter's now 11. I was doing a little EMDR therapy with her around a memory she had from when she was three, where I opened a second practice in Florida. I was going back and forth between Boca Ratona and Keelago, Florida. And so I was gone at the beginning three nights, then two nights, and then I got it down to one, but I was going back and forth, and she was three. And she internalized this as feeling abandoned. Oh, yes. And like enough that it's still affecting her to an extent today, like this many years later. And this is growing up with, and you know, this could either work for or against her, depending. We'll find out. We'll look at the longitudinal studies down the road, right? But this is growing up with a therapist who gives her all the tools to use to process it. So thank goodness we did a little EMDR, but look at you and I. We're two daughters who grew up with divorced parents who ended up reenacting that in our own lives. We both made deals with ourselves that we weren't gonna do that. And here, here my daughter is, right? Something that was unrelated to divorce, but just me separating from her when her brain was pre-age seven, right? Where you can have, because it's seven is when their top brains come online and they can do more advanced reasoning. And that's just how it got internalized. I mean, can you imagine all of these kids pre-age seven having to go back and forth and their attachment styles down the road? Golly.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

I'm like, uh, I'm processing that. I'm processing my children's ages and my age. And, you know, also what if parents thought about that development age instead of I'm gonna wait until they're 18. 18. Right? Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. What how different would it look, right? If that was the case. It's pretty amazing. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

I definitely think uh, well, because if there's conflict in the marriage, right, the then the kids are getting different internalized negative messages, right? So the goal with children is to not have them inter to have them internalize as few negative messages about themselves as possible.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

So yeah, it's yeah, you're just I I when I when I talk about high conflict cases, I always think like you have to love your children more than you hate your ex. And but if you like if you can't, you need to figure that out because man, that's some hard stuff. Uh that's hard stuff for them to understand um at a young age, especially. Uh, they'll they'll figure that out at some point and they'll see right from wrong, but man, that's tough at the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Really, really, really is. And that's so much of what we help women with too, right? Long-term recovery strategy, right? Is to yeah, be able to let go of that anger and resentment and be present for yourself with your children, all those things for sure. Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

And the abandonment issue is pretty big. You know, I think people struggle. I I think the word trauma is overused. Sure. Um, again, it gets watered down, if you will, in the in the divorce world. And I and I hate that for clients who are actually experiencing trauma. Uh because a lot like domestic violence, I think judges get used to hearing certain words, but they the words are not descriptive enough of what's actually happening. And I think about, you know, how there are all these other things like uh alienation. Once, you know, there's an article in the newspaper about alienation, we'll hear about alienation for like the next two months. The same thing with narcissism.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

That work gets all the time.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

So don't get me started on that one. Right. And trauma. So it's, you know, we the the court system, um, you know, they're humans. The judges are humans. And when they hear the same thing over and over again, they might get a little icy about totally. Yeah. And so they might make decisions that they would not have otherwise made if the if if people weren't anyway, um, but we don't talk a lot about abandonment in the sense that you're describing it. Most of the time you're hearing it in terms of, oh, he abandoned me or abandoned me physically. And even though that might be, you know, because we'll get that question too, even though that might be a factor the court considers, I personally think that it is such a it's such a small, I even say, like, uh, I'll have a client say, Well, should I leave or should I wait for him to leave? And my answer is always like, you leave when you're ready, but we need to be prepared for that moment because there's some consequences to that. And so, but will I be abandoning him? Well, let's talk about the consequences of the word abandonment, legally speaking. Because that's different than emotionally speaking.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

100%. And I think that's part of the problem with today's popular culture is we're not discerning. I internalized a negative belief from actual trauma. And you can have a lot of negative consequences in your life because you internalize a negative belief because you had a painful experience. But that is not the same as trauma. And 100%, I think you're speaking, speaking truth over there.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

I I'm doing the best I can, keeping my generalization so I don't upset anybody.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

I understand. Okay. If a woman is listening and she's thinking to herself, what have I done? What have I done? Maybe she's still grappling with regret. Maybe she's afraid this whatever she's feeling right now is her new normal. Maybe she's misreading some things, you know, misinterpreting some things. But if she's struggling with that right in this moment, with you and the wisdom of your experience, personal and professional, because man, you've got boatloads of it. What would you say to her? Want her to know about herself and her journey today?

SPEAKER_01 43:47

That it's okay to second guess yourself. That second guessing yourself is part of the journey because it's change and that there there are going to be uh many more moments where you have uh what I've called a roller coaster of freedom and grief. And uh sometimes you might not even see it coming, sometimes it's in the a minute, sometimes it is in a day, but um that's okay. Like it's okay. It will it will reveal itself in time, but uh you know, so that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Roller coaster of freedom and grief. Yes, definitely. Reminds me of the movie Rapunzel where she's coming down the have you seen that one where she's coming down and Flynn Ryder is like, you seem to have a lot going on.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

It's generally a visual, and I mean I it it uh it's funny, you'd think that it would eventually, you know, even it it takes longer to pass than I think. And I think that depends on the how long you're married and and what the circumstances are in your separation or the your thoughts around separation. Um, your circle of friends, your support system. So many things matter in those moments. And you will second guess yourself. There's it, I think it would be unusual if you didn't second guess yourself.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Preach, do you I second guess myself? Like, I'm not getting divorced. I second guess myself. You second guess yourself from time to time, right? Like it's of course a human thing. Yeah.

Regret Waves Somatic Support Closing

SPEAKER_01 45:32

It is. And then, you know, you have to decide whether to trust the feelings you're having. So are your, and this is from a, I'm sure you've got lots of feedback on whether your feelings are trustworthy in that moment. And uh, so, you know, that's something that I struggle with and that I definitely see clients struggle with, just like, you know, I was describing when I was triggered this morning. Like, uh, why am I triggered? Uh, am I trusting the anger that just built up inside of me for the last four minutes?

SPEAKER_00 46:05

It's not a good idea. No, we say feelings are not facts over here, right? And very often I see, and I know this was my lived experience, and this has been my journey with um healing work or personal development, is to not get swallowed by a feeling. I am not anger, I am not fear, I am not right. But I actually think we confuse our identity with negative emotions sometimes. It's fascinating. And how do you advise people to get out of that moment?

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Come work with us. It's 10 o'clock at night, and they just finished the love story.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Yeah. So I actually right before we hopped on, I recorded an episode for this exact moment. Uh, and it's gonna air on Thursday. So Thursday is when we have our, yeah, like our VIP cocoon um episodes that are like actually where the work happens, right? So it's a little guided um somatic practice where we add a butterfly tap, which is like a bilateral simulation, which it borrows from EMDR therapy. Okay. To actually process through the overwhelming feeling of, you know, could it be like grief, overwhelm, regret? Um the title of the episode is crazy. It's like when my body says stop, but the deadlines demand I go, right? It's like when you get to these super overwhelming moments and you have all these feelings and you don't know what to do with them. Yeah. So it's a little somatic practice to work through that.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

Well, that is worth anyone doing because we all face those moments. And uh, you know, there are some big decisions that are worth it to make in that process for yourself, for your kids, for others, for your the your colleagues. Like you have a choice to show up the best version of you. And so what are you doing to make that to make that possible? It's really easy to not do it. But why would we do that? We don't this is why would we do that?

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Right. Plain small, playing small. Yeah. Anything else you want to speak into women about or tell them where they can find you, definitely check out Nicole's book. It is one of my favorites for women getting divorced on my shelf back here.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

I if I could have a side hustle outside of the 14 hats that I wear, yeah, would definitely say reading Audible was one of my very favorite things to do. Okay. Um, because I read my own Audible. I was the narrator for Audible for my book. Okay. And that was really fun for me. And after I I was sharing the studio for those who were over the age of 45, I was sharing the studio with um the bass player from Hoodie and the Flowfish. He came in after me. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

So while you were coming in and going out, then you got to high five, the bass player.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

I left him a note and I said, You may not remember me, but I was the blonde in front. That's amazing. And he left me a note back and said, I thought I recognized you. I mean, it was pretty funny. Um, but uh I was in front at some point, at some hoot. But anyway, of course. So I know because they were great. Um so uh so anyway, I love Audible. It's a really easy way. I didn't, you know, when I wrote the book, I wanted it to be an easy read because one of the things I discovered about myself was as I am a reader, I'm a writer, you know, I am a storyteller. And uh one of the things that I was challenged with when I went through my separation was I could not read. I couldn't. I don't I just couldn't concentrate, couldn't focus, couldn't not focus, couldn't concentrate, could not read. And so when I started writing it, I was writing it with that intention. Like that you could listen to it on audible and it would be easy to read. Yes, and it's easy to read, and I left the margins um wide so that taking notes that you take notes, yes. And then at the end of each chapter, I asked questions and they're for you to answer. Um, and so uh so I like that opportunity if there are if you were going through it, because a lot of it is it the book is divided into three parts. It's based on marriage, separation, and divorce, and they are three distinct areas. And so I want you to treat it that way. Um so so thanks. You can find me at Nicole Sedoma.com. Um, and the um I think I'm I think I'm pretty easy to find these days online. You're pretty easy to find these days. Instagram is was, you know, not my generation at 50. So yeah, I'm I'm moving my life over to Instagram with all doing what we can, doing what we can, yeah. Yes, and I think we're supposed to be on TikTok already though. I'm on TikTok and I'll try not to read the comments. Okay, there you go. I do read the comments. I see you, but it's uh I've been advised by the by my assistant that I don't have to respond to all the comments, especially the ones that maybe aren't as nice. Trigger you. Yes, you know, yeah. Stimulus and response, baby. All day long. That's right. That's right. Thank you for having me, Don. You were such a pleasure. You're always an outlook. Such a fun work you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

Thank you. I went for that. Same. Yeah. All right. Well, until we meet again, thanks for being here. Thanks, Don. Okay. All right, ladies, we love you so much. Peace.