#26 Getting Uncaged with Katia Vlachos

This is a journey of becoming. A very powerful one. Sitting down with the light and power that is Katia Vlachos: an author, reinvention coach, speaker and mother of 3. Her life from Good Girl to Uncaged Woman living her truth with the people she choose has been far from easy, however her story is the testament and reminder to us all that we already have the power within us to create the life we want NO MATTER what happened yesterday, last year etc. It is the knowing that NO MATTER what we chose in the past we can ALWAYS choose again. And we can start anytime, any place. Katia reminds us that anything is possible because we are possible. Just as we are. This version of us. Now. 

Katia Vlachos is a reinvention coach, speaker, and bestselling author of Uncaged: A Good Girl's Journey to Reinvention a memoir which explores the themes of breaking free from social conditioning, making bold choices, and reclaiming one’s authentic self. In her coaching practice, she supports accomplished women navigate personal and professional reinvention and chart their own ambitious paths towards a fulfilling, uncaged life. Katia's work has been featured in the New York Times, Harvard Business Review, The Telegraph, Forbes, BBC Radio, Marie Claire UK, and many media outlets globally. She's a certified meditation teacher.

Uncaged: https://uncaged.net/
Website: https://www.katiavlachos.com

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Transcript

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Josephine McGrail: So Hello, Hello, welcoming the gorgeous Katya to the podcast today. So Katya is a reinvention coach. She's an author of several books. She is also a speaker, and she is committed to so many amazing courses. But from what I could see specifically to empowering women that are already very accomplished and already leading very high, performing lives.

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Josephine McGrail: really finding themselves and living in values and true alignment with what is right for them. So it is an absolute honor to have you here on the podcast today. Welcome, Katya.

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Katia Vlachos: Thank you, Josephine, for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

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Josephine McGrail: Amazing. So, Katya, I have obviously read your latest book, and now I actually have to like I know it's called uncaged. But here we go a memoir uncaged, a good girl's journey to reinvention, and I absolutely loved it. I want to just share with the readers actually, one of the 1st things that just got me hooked. It's funnily enough. Also. The 1st line is the 1st sentence in your book, and it goes.

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Josephine McGrail: I wrote this book because I wanted you to know that there is a way out.

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Katia Vlachos: And you know I read that, and I was like.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, wow! You know this is not a book that you read. This is a book that you feel.

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Josephine McGrail: and there is a.

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Katia Vlachos: Huge dish.

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Josephine McGrail: And so from the minute I you know you introduced yourself like that, I was like. Oh, she's part of the tribe. She's part of the family.

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Josephine McGrail: Now it's been absolutely

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Josephine McGrail: life, not just transforming, but life healing. Reading your book, reading about your journey. And yes, I just wanted to start.

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Josephine McGrail: understand.

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Josephine McGrail: But listen, before I start here, and just go into like, you know, an hour of saluting you, which I could easily do. Let's go back in time, so that our listeners are with us as well. So, Katya, where are you from? Give us a little bit of background. Where did you start out in life?

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Katia Vlachos: Where did this start? Yes, 1st of all, thank you for your kindness. That, like you know, my heart is is full already, and we haven't even started talking. So I really appreciate you. I was born. Where I'm from is is a complex question. I'm I'm originally from Greece. My passport is Greek.

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Katia Vlachos: I was not born there. I was born in Cameroon, in Africa, and I was there until I was 4 years old, and then I was raised in Greece after that. So when I was 4, I was separated from my father because my mother had a really bad experience with my birth almost died. So when she was about to have my brother

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Katia Vlachos: decided she didn't want to have him in Cameroon, so we moved to Greece at that time, and my brother was born there, but my father stayed behind because he, you know, he had his business there, and he couldn't just like sell everything and leave he needed some time.

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Katia Vlachos: So that I'm mentioning that because the separation from my father, even though it was, it was never an issue in my life until my forties. Basically, I didn't make a big deal out of it. It did have a huge impact on on my life and the choices I made, and I only realized much later in life how much of an impact that had had.

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Katia Vlachos: So my early life in Greece, you know, was the what I say in the book. I was the good Greek girl, you know, and and that means following the prescribed path. And you know, doing all the right things and being excellent, you know, at school and and being a pathological people pleaser. And

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Katia Vlachos: you know, putting others needs ahead of your own, or at least that's what I was supposed to do, and and feeling guilty when I wasn't doing that

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Katia Vlachos: so it was very

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Katia Vlachos: again, like I talk about. I was. I was in the cage of, you know everything that I was expected of me. I was. I was really good at everything.

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Katia Vlachos: And you know I kind of checked all the boxes, the school grades, the good education, the university, the good husband the good job. Sorry for that. And I think that went really well for a while. I mean, I I was in my previous career before I was doing what I'm doing now. I was a military analyst, one of the very few women in a male dominated field that.

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Katia Vlachos: was very exciting place to be, and very intellectually stimulating and interesting. And I was living in La, which is still one of my favorite places in the world. So I really was on top of the world. And and then something happened that really kind of

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Katia Vlachos: turn things around for me. I had to make a decision whether I would follow my then husband to back to Europe, to his home country, or if I would stay in La. And I made the choice to follow because I wasn't ready to get a divorce.

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Katia Vlachos: and good girls don't get divorces in general.

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Josephine McGrail: Yes. And also, you know, there's also that time of you know, like sometimes we, we get so good at being the following, we don't even realize we were born to be the leader. So there is.

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Katia Vlachos: Yeah, that was that was never on. My radar leader was like.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, yeah.

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Katia Vlachos: No, that was, that was never a thing that I love. What you're saying.

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Josephine McGrail: Hmm.

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Katia Vlachos: It was. Yeah, it was. It wasn't

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Katia Vlachos: interesting choice, because I had to leave behind, you know, a place that I really loved. But also I left my career behind, because it was very, very hard for me to to follow up in. In the new location. I I became a total victim, totally resentful for being there. I was deeply unhappy for a long, long time.

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Katia Vlachos: I had my children there. That was the highlight that was not part of the unhappiness and the victimhood. That was kind of the the most beautiful thing in my life. So I had 3 children while I was in Austria, and

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Josephine McGrail: Which, by the way, can I just stop for a moment as far as like when, from when I was reading your book, the children were very much your choices. That was very much you. From what I could feel it was like this, was not you doing the following, you were like this is happening.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, is happening. Right? So I feel like.

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Katia Vlachos: Like it's true.

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Josephine McGrail: This is so important to to realize right. And and especially I am. I've been. I'm really diving deep into the whole sort of female mysteries at the moment, and the whole. I don't know if you've heard about this thing called womb womb healing, and you know and and it's like the thing is, this is

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Josephine McGrail: such important knowledge, you know. You know we will grow up in a world where most people are sort of like presented with the whole like birth situation being that. Well, then, the man comes and he conquers the woman right. No, he doesn't.

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Josephine McGrail: We've got inside the room. Sorry I have to educate here, because this is so important. Inside the room we have this gorgeous little egg right? And when it's time. And this is another thing when the egg goes, hey? It's time it plunks down, and then it sits and hangs out on the Fallopian tube right? It's like it's hanging out down one of the tubes.

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Josephine McGrail: and now it doesn't sit there patiently and go. Oh, well, you know, would a man be so kind to come along? No, it doesn't. Apparently millions and billions of little sperm cells comes around, and she sits there like the Queen, and she goes. No, no, no, not really right. And then she's like you, and so on. A really deep. And this is not physiological level. Anatomical level, you know, since beginning of day is a woman

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Josephine McGrail: we lead we choose. And it's not even. It's not even a gender thing. It's just, you know. This is such an important part of the story that for most of us. We would not have been, you know, told, since we were kids, right like, I certainly wasn't. So. Anyway, back to you, you chose.

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Katia Vlachos: No. And and you're absolutely you're absolutely right. We lead and we choose. But we're we're told otherwise.

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Katia Vlachos: aren't so we we don't really internalize that right. And that's that's part of the cage that I'm describing. We internalize many other things, but not, you know, our inner leadership potential.

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Josephine McGrail: Right.

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Katia Vlachos: Yeah, so yeah, I was kind of a typical example. But I did make choices, you know, I didn't see it at the time, because, like I said, I was very much under like in a in a victim mindset. But I didn't see that these were all my choices, and maybe they were not the best choices I could have made, but they were mine right, so none of the children were the best choice, but everything else.

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Katia Vlachos: So anyway. But you know what I what I understand now, of course, is that you? You really have to. I didn't hit Rock bottom exactly, but you really have to go through the struggle to be able to to emerge after that, and I really had to to become somebody I really didn't recognize like this. The victim is, is really not part of who I am, but that was there for a long, long time.

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Katia Vlachos: and and that's what allowed me to to finally

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Katia Vlachos: take the decision to be like I need to. I need to be me again. I need to get out of this thing, whatever is that's that's keeping me in that that space.

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Josephine McGrail: Can I ask you, Katya, just because I think this is such an important, you know, because I mean, your whole book is super important. Because why? It's your life. So, therefore, already super important. But I think for listeners

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Josephine McGrail: what is really, really vital to hear, because one thing is, we can take you from ABC and go like, Oh, yeah, it was tough. But hey, here I am. And now things are good. But I would really like if it's okay with you, the 1st moment that pops into your head as a child of feeling like a victim, feeling like you weren't seen, or even not even a victim. Let's call it helpless

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Josephine McGrail: the 1st time as a child where you felt helpless. What would be a memory 1st thing that pops into your head. Don't really analyze it.

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Katia Vlachos: I think, and I don't know if it's it's the earliest memory, but it's it's being called selfish, actually.

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Katia Vlachos: because cause I didn't feel that was who I was. But I got called that a lot in an in the kind of a funny kind of oh.

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Josephine McGrail: When she's.

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Katia Vlachos: Selfish is not like her brother, or

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Katia Vlachos: so it wasn't like, you know, punitive or anything. But it was. It was like, I don't want this label. This is not this is not me. It felt unfair. So I felt, but I felt helpless because there was no way I was, gonna change that and and eventually, you know, I was like, Okay, fine. You know, I'm selfish. One.

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Josephine McGrail: Right.

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Katia Vlachos: But that's that's the 1st thing that himself.

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Katia Vlachos: I I think, before my memory I I can't imagine. I felt very helpless when when we moved, and I had no idea what was going on. And suddenly my father wasn't there anymore.

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Josephine McGrail: Right.

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Katia Vlachos: Then I was really, really close to him, so I can't imagine that that must have felt horrible. But I I don't have a memory of that. Unfortunately.

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Josephine McGrail: No, no, of course. Well, exactly right, because the brain is selective, and it's like, Hey, you know, in order to not just keep you alive, but keep you thriving. We're just gonna we're going to delete certain.

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Katia Vlachos: It's too painful. Yeah, let's.

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Josephine McGrail: An absolute

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Josephine McGrail: but no, thank you so much for sharing that, because I think it's so important again that you know just again as a listener, just understanding that

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Josephine McGrail: the stories we were told, and you know again from not, you know no one was mean, you know, meant to give us not a wrong, but you know a label that would essentially keep you caged for life until one day you were like, Hey, this is not who I am right. But to understand that what we are presented with in especially in the early years, from, like, you know, day you're born up until the year of being around 7 years old. They are so formative, so deeply formative. And.

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Josephine McGrail: as you were mentioning, hey, you know, I didn't even realize essentially that there was another way of living that I could live life on my trims until you said until you got into your forties. Right? So then you got into your forties. I'm just going to fast forward you into your forties.

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Josephine McGrail: So what started to happen? What started to stir in the cauldron? So we were still. Yes, you were mentioning, you know you were like, okay. I spent a long time in the cage, and a long time in a story that you you labeled as the victim. Right? So what?

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Josephine McGrail: Yes.

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Josephine McGrail: you know, I know it's always a culmination, because no one goes from like, Hey, I feel pretty good in life to Oh, my God! And I'm a victim, and to like, Hey, I'm a hero, right? I know it's everything is a cumulative. Everything is a journey. But around you said, around into your forties what happened around your forties.

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Katia Vlachos: So in my early forties. There was a moment when and and my, you know, after the the move that I chose, but didn't feel like I chose, because, let's say, I was a victim. I was very unhappy for a long, long time in my marriage, like took it like it took a toll on my marriage because of long story. People have to read the book, but it was, you know. The move was was

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Katia Vlachos: was very pivotal, and was related to my marriage. So things started going down with with my my relationship to my then husband. And there came a moment when I realized that. Well, 1st of all, I didn't like the person I had become right. I couldn't connect to her. I felt like I was losing myself. If that makes sense.

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Katia Vlachos: There you go.

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Katia Vlachos: I think you have to experience it to to get what that's like, but it's really scary.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh!

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Katia Vlachos: So I was. I was terrified that I was losing myself and and becoming somebody I didn't recognize anymore. And and also at the same time I realized I didn't have agency over my life. It's this, this powerless like, you said only later in life. And

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Katia Vlachos: and and then I was like, Oh, I need to do something about this and it started with my marriage because I I decided, Okay, I can't. I can't stay in this anymore. And like a good girl, I had tried really hard to make it work, and and.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, you!

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Katia Vlachos: Be the good wife and to be the good mother. And there was a lot of guilt involved, also that that I had to overcome to take that decision, because, of course, you know, for people who have gone through separation with children, you're like, what am I doing to them? You know I have a responsibility. So I had to really

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Katia Vlachos: overcome these these feelings and realize that

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Katia Vlachos: I wasn't exactly serving them by staying in a relationship. I wasn't. That wasn't functional, that wasn't happy that you know I was. I was

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Katia Vlachos: modeling a A and and you know, I was giving him a model of of a relationship. That wasn't what I wanted to.

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Josephine McGrail: Yes.

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Katia Vlachos: And that's and it's so, you know, it started with with getting out of that relationship. And I'm basically trusting myself to take that decision, because before that all my decisions were were prescribed, they were either part of the path or somebody else made the decision for me essentially disguised as my decision. But but it was. It was really the 1st decision that I made on my own, and I really had to trust myself again

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Katia Vlachos: to do that, and again wasn't easy cause. I was completely out of practice.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, of course.

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Katia Vlachos: And then and then what happens usually is, you know you take one step and then, and then you gain confidence, and you gain clarity about, you know. Hey? I'm I'm on the right path. And then and then the other decisions kind of build on that. So I left my marriage I say it like that. But of course it was a long, long period with a lot of ups and downs. I decided to to stop being resentful about not being able to work in my field and and

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Katia Vlachos: change direction, I started writing my 1st book.

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Katia Vlachos: I eventually I discovered coaching, fell in love with coaching, you know, and and then I kind of launched in my in my new career. But again it was one decision, you know, one small step after the next, and really kind of building momentum slowly

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Katia Vlachos: like that. And and every decision I made, though, was felt so much more aligned. Like you said. You know, it was so much more in in how to say, in harmony with with my values and and what I wanted to create in the world, and the difference I wanted to make, and

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Katia Vlachos: that was new to me.

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Josephine McGrail: Right.

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Katia Vlachos: Again. It was all coming from me. It wasn't coming from

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Katia Vlachos: what I had gotten from from my environment, from the expectations from, you know the the right path.

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Katia Vlachos: A 100 we learn.

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Josephine McGrail: It makes complete sense.

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Josephine McGrail: and oh, my God! So beautiful! And then so then a memoir uncaged. A good girl's journey to reinvention is born. Now I want to ask

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Josephine McGrail: what prompted you at this moment in time when you decided to write that? And how long did it take you to? How long was the process? How long was the journey from you getting the idea to you? Starting to put something together.

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Josephine McGrail: Hmm.

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Katia Vlachos: So. I've started writing this book after my divorce.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah.

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Katia Vlachos: Because, anyway, I needed to have a little bit of distance, and it's not. It's not a book of my divorce at all, but so at at some point I

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Katia Vlachos: I was having a conversation with with with my husband, not my ex-husband, because I remarried so my

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Katia Vlachos: my wonderful husband, and we were talking about

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Katia Vlachos: everything that had happened in the past years, and and how I felt like I had grown from it. And so I was sharing all that, and he was like, well, you know.

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Katia Vlachos: a lot of women could benefit from this. I was like, Really you think so. Why don't you write a book about it? But but I have no idea how to write memoir, because I'm a researcher by training, you know. I write nonfiction books. So memoir for me was like starting like writing fiction, and like I'm not equipped.

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Josephine McGrail: So.

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Katia Vlachos: So, but but I must say I

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Katia Vlachos: I felt that, and by then I knew, because I had clients who had similar stories, not not the details of the story, but the concept of, you know, feeling caved, feeling trapped feeling like they weren't fulfilling their potential feeling that there was. No, they weren't aligned with what was important to them. So so I kind of knew. So it's not like

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Katia Vlachos: my husband said something new to me, but I hadn't quite put the pieces together, and I hadn't even dared to think about writing a book about it. So a lot of yeah things that came together, and so, and I could have written a nonfiction book. But I feel that that telling the story is so much more powerful. And and really.

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Katia Vlachos: yeah, being being vulnerable, people connect so much more to to story than than to me, just saying, Oh, this is what you have to do if you want to. I don't know. Get out of the cage 1, 2, 3 steps, whatever it's I'm sure it's useful, too, but it's not the same.

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Josephine McGrail: No, a hundred percent. Oh, my God, like. And also we live for feeling. You know, we live for feeling we're here to feel alive. We don't think alive right? And it's always true. And it's always so funny because it's that thing of like

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Josephine McGrail: We know that. And we agree on that when things feel amazing and we are in love, and we're excited with life, and we feel like there's momentum and yay. And then on the days where it's like. Hmm! I feel kind of stuck, or oh, no, it's scary, or I'm anxious, or I'm angry, or whatever it is, right then we're like. Oh, now I don't want all the feelings. Can. Can all those feelings go away, please, can you? Just can you? Just

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Josephine McGrail: I got back into the wardrobe, you know. So so I love. I love how you you chose to write the book because I love that like I said. You know I didn't. You know, I didn't read the book. I felt the book I experienced, the book, you know, and and also I think there's a quote by David G. And he says something about you know, this is not just catch your story. This is our story.

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Josephine McGrail: and you know this is such an important thing, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: because this is also why we're having this podcast today as much as your story on paper is amazing and your book is wonderful. But it's the feeling behind. You know it is you, the being that you are with all of your emotions that not only makes you whole, but that makes you wholesome and wonderful and truly inspiring for other people to connect with, because it's also that thing.

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Josephine McGrail: emotions and vulnerability it makes us, it makes us relatable, right? And if something is relatable, then we get excited, then we connect, but also we kind of go. Then it's for us

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Josephine McGrail: right? Then it's for us, because otherwise. And that's also why I was like, you know, I was like, we can go as light hearted as we want in this podcast that we can go nice and deep, and it's up to you. But I always love when we have these moments of real vulnerability. And the same way that you've mentioned many times. This was not an easy journey, and also that your book is not just in, you know, inverted commas like, you know, it's not just about your oh, you know I left my husband. And now this was the transformation. It's relatable, because

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Josephine McGrail: whether someone is married or not married, I know you lived in many countries you also have 3 gorgeous children, whether someone lives in many places or decides to have children or not.

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Josephine McGrail: As a human being, we all find ourselves in situations where we have internalized a certain story about ourself, about who we are and who we are not, and somehow we actually build a prison around ourselves right? And the person that is stopping us from creating any kind of momentum in our life. Trying anything out is not the other. It is us.

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Katia Vlachos: So. And you know this, I know this. And so the way that the way that you wrote this book catcher is.

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Josephine McGrail: So relatable, but also so intriguing, so exciting, so inviting to the reader. I literally read this in like a week, and I am. It's.

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Katia Vlachos: Excuse me.

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Josephine McGrail: Because I write a lot myself, but I'm not a reader, and so, you know, like when Ella.

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Katia Vlachos: That's a big compliment.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, it really is. When Ella, our mutual friend, when she posted this to me, I was like, Okay, I'm excited. But then part of my brain was like, Oh, my God! When will I find the time?

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Josephine McGrail: Read now

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Josephine McGrail: that book, you know, and I opened the 1st page as I mentioned, and I was like, you know, the fact that you address the reader straight away straight away. You're like, you know, I wrote this book for you, and if you feel like you're stuck like, I want you to know that there is a way out.

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Josephine McGrail: The minute you started the book like that, I was like, Okay, I'm interested. I'm interested. She's talking to my heart. She's talking to my bones. She's talking to my soul. And now we're having a connection, a conversation that I want to invest in so honestly like this book for me is like I mentioned already. It's the one I'm going to be sending out to all of my clients, and also all of my friends. So absolutely amazing, Katya. Now.

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Katia Vlachos: I'm delighted. Also I forgot to say how long it took me to write it

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Katia Vlachos: 2 years, because it's memoir.

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Katia Vlachos: and it's really hard to write because you have to relive everything, and and some parts were not easy to relive. I mean, you read the first.st It wasn't the 1st chapter. It's a preface, but just those like 2 and a half pages were so hard I needed breaks. So writing about my divorce was so hard, especially when it came to the children, and and all that, so I had to pace myself. I had to take breaks to be able to get through the story, and also I wrote a book that was

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Katia Vlachos: much longer than this one, and I had an amazing editor who helped me because I was like I don't know what to cut out of this. It's.

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Josephine McGrail: Next door.

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Katia Vlachos: Sorry. So?

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Katia Vlachos: And everything is important. Yeah, exactly right?

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Katia Vlachos: Right? So that's why you need somebody else to kill your darlings like they say in writing right? So so it took took a long time. But but to to comment on what you said. People read memoir. They don't. I mean, it's nice to know your story, but they read it for their own stories right? Because because then, like you said, they feel it, and and they start reflecting on their own lives, and and what

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Katia Vlachos: connections they can make, and and what they can take from it for them. And that's that's why I wrote it so thank you for what you said, because it really touches my heart, because this is why I wrote the book

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Katia Vlachos: and and I get all the time I get messages from people who have read it. And they have completely different stories. And they're like, like, Yeah, like, our stories have nothing to do with each other. But something spoke to me from from reading this book, and and I'm taking away something, and it made me reflect on whatever like my next decision or

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Katia Vlachos: so, or heal something from the past. Right? So so, yeah, that's that's the purpose behind my cage.

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Josephine McGrail: Well, it's absolutely working wonders already, and I'm super excited. By the way, are you planning another book? Or is this is this the book journey for now, and now you're focusing more on your clients, and I know you run retreats as well. You do, speaking engagement.

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Katia Vlachos: Yeah, that's that's a good question. I never say I mean, I think it's not gonna be my last book, but I don't. I have no idea what the next one will be like. Did I even know I was going to write a memorial.

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Josephine McGrail: Right.

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Katia Vlachos: We'll see. I don't know yet. I may do like a companion for for those who want the nonfiction version of uncaged, or who want a little bit more guidance on how to walk the path, but other than that I don't know yet. We'll see. I'm sure there'll be something.

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Josephine McGrail: Absolutely. I love that. And Katya, at the moment you're based in Zurich. Is that right?

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Katia Vlachos: Yes. Switzerland. Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Wonderful. And are you working mainly with one-to-one clients? Or what is it? Tell us about a day in the life of Katya?

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Katia Vlachos: Ha! Ha!

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Josephine McGrail: Yes, because.

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Josephine McGrail: you know, you got out of the cage. So now we want to know where you are exactly.

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Katia Vlachos: Like. So

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Katia Vlachos: I like I like to wear. I like to wear many hats, because I don't like to do one thing only for a long, long time, and I'm sure you you resonate with that because you wear many hats.

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Katia Vlachos: It's like

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Katia Vlachos: so so part of my my days are are my clients. So I have one to one clients and and I, yeah, I I love. I love working with.

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Katia Vlachos: you know, with them. And and really wouldn't, I mean, don't get me started talking about my clients because they're they're amazing human beings who just like engage with the process and trust the process and and take the power in their hands the power they've always had right and and do amazing things with their lives. So it's it's a privilege to witness that. So that's

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Katia Vlachos: that's 1 part of my work. Since October I've been doing, or even before that the fall I've been doing a lot of work to promote uncaged and to get it out into the world. So I write a lot of articles and on podcasts.

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Josephine McGrail: Yay!

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Katia Vlachos: And speaking engagements, or I do workshops. So

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Katia Vlachos: what else am I doing? I'm not writing the next one yet, but writing is is also part of my my routine. I I journal a lot. I meditate daily, so there's the self I don't want to call it self-care. It feels a little shallow. I don't know, but it's like my personal circle kind of with myself.

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Katia Vlachos: that's my my rituals. That are also part of my day, and and of course the biggest part is my family. I have my 2 of my 3 children living with me and my husband and I, just, you know whenever they'll want to spend time with me, because they're, you know, there's a teenager and a young adult, and and my my beautiful puppy. So there's there's also the family part of this.

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Josephine McGrail: Amazing.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, I think it's awesome.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, go on.

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Katia Vlachos: Well, there's like that. The last thing is is I'm I'm working on on a group program because or or group experiences and and the retreats. Of course, that will put on hold for the whole book. Promotion stuff. So.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh no!

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Katia Vlachos: Because I really enjoy bringing people together. I really enjoy the the energy and the dynamic and the learnings and the support that happens in in a group which you don't necessarily get in in the one-to-one. Right? So again, I I know you know that. So that's

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Katia Vlachos: it's important for me to to have that

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Katia Vlachos: dimension of of spreading the uncaged message as well. That avenue, not to mention.

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Josephine McGrail: No, it's absolutely amazing. And you're so right. What can happen in a group container that is safe is the transformation, the healing that naturally occurs when one human being to another human being feels, seen, feels safe, and feel encouraged and safe enough to speak up, and then, you know, they share their story.

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Josephine McGrail: and someone else has the same story, maybe slightly different words, but the same feeling, and to not be shamed for it. But to recognize that what you're experiencing is completely normal.

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Josephine McGrail: It's a i will say, actually, like 95%, not just of my clients, but also in my own life. You know it's reading books like yours. It's having conversations like this, where someone else that you can relate to, and you can see yourself in. And they go like, Oh, my God! This was like nearly impossible for me to make this leap or make this choice, and you go. Oh, my God! I'm not the only one, you know.

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Katia Vlachos: I said.

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Josephine McGrail: You have the courage to speak up and to to name, to name what's going on for you, and and you know and to do that with people that just resonate with you. It's absolutely incredible. And that's also why I run with tweets. It's exactly the same thing.

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Katia Vlachos: Magic.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, yeah, I don't listen.

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Josephine McGrail: You know what, honey. I could talk to you all day, but I want to ask you, Katya. So at this moment in your life, and and I know you keep saying in my early forties, and I'm sitting here for those of you that are listening. Katya is incredibly beautiful. I cannot believe that she is any any you know any more years, any wiser than her early forties. I have no idea what age you are. That doesn't matter. I just wanted to give that a little mention. Now.

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Josephine McGrail: with the amount of years we will keep it unknown that you've been on this planet. For with the wisdom that you hold today that you carry today, if that was just

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Josephine McGrail: one soul message for humanity, no pressure, Katya, what would it be? And it could be a few honey? It can be a few. And yeah, this is part of what I always do. I always ask. You know what would be your message, or you know a few messages from your own life, from experiences you've had to conclusions you've made to go. This is really important, or you know this affirmation, or, you know, just doing this one thing anything at all.

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Katia Vlachos: Yeah, okay. So I will go with the 1st thing that that came up for me when you asked me that question. And

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Katia Vlachos: and I think it's no coincidence, because it's probably what made the biggest difference in my life in in my growth journey. And that was

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Katia Vlachos: It's gonna sound cheesy, but maybe not to us, right? It was loving myself again.

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Katia Vlachos: And yeah. And again, you hear a lot about self-compassion, and how it's great for you, and it really is. It really made the difference, like all the difference, because I didn't. I didn't like myself. I definitely didn't love myself. I didn't recognize myself. And and that's how I I stayed in that cage, I think. And and the moment I realized that.

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Katia Vlachos: hey, this is me, I have my flaws I made some bad choices. I now understand why, and and I give myself a break for them. And I'm you know I'm not a bad person. I I used to think I was a bad person the moment I I actually yeah

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Katia Vlachos: embraced myself and both myself in my early forties and myself in my 4 years right? Who really needed that embrace and really needed that, that love and that understanding. That's when I decided to get out. So if I had a message for humanity it would be. You're never alone. You always have that person in the mirror, and she or he is is just.

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Katia Vlachos: amazing, and deserving of all the love in the world, especially yours.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God! Oh, my God! I love it so much! I love it.

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Katia Vlachos: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, I'm like jumping up and down here. I know what the fingers catch. It's like like you said. It's like we hear it all the time we hear it in songs. We see it in movies. We read it in books. Love yourself, you know. Love yourself first, st right?

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Josephine McGrail: And it's it's so hard, right? It's like it's. And it is that one thing you know, like, I always say, like we have to. We have to choose. And this is a choice, and hence why we normally have to reach the bottom of ourself before we start to go. Oh, I want to weigh up. I'm going to find

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Josephine McGrail: have to get courageous. And normally, we're forced to be courageous because change is crazy, hard, right? So we have to get to that bottom until there is no other option than to go. Well, I can't go any lower, so let's let's start trying something else, and then doing that thing like you said, you're looking yourself in the mirror and you're going

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Josephine McGrail: okay. So my parents did the best that they could, sending all the love to the parents. Right. We're no longer, we can no longer blame them and shame them, and all of that. The change is nothing. But what I can change is I can go back, and I can

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Josephine McGrail: grasp and hold and support and love this little me that exists that still exists right because time, past, present, future.

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Josephine McGrail: it's actually kind of all happening. It's in a way, in the world of not even quantum physics, but just in the world of psychology, past, present, and future versions of us are constantly walking side by side, because, as you mentioned, you were impacted, I am impacted by what we were taught about who we are and who we are. Not since the age of 0 to 7. Right? And so that's why little Katya is still here, hanging out with little Josie right.

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Katia Vlachos: Oh, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Right exactly. And so.

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Katia Vlachos: Son.

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Josephine McGrail: When we can. Really, when we choose to go in and go, you know what

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Josephine McGrail: you know, visualizing little you, picking her up, looking after her, and and daily, and continuing throughout your day to go. Okay, you know, if I was the mother of little me, what would be the best choice in this situation. And this is actually Katya. This has also been my own work for many, many years, you know, working with my inner child and going, you know, really becoming the parent that I wish I had had. It changes everything, absolutely everything. And through that also, I, yeah, yeah, exactly like,

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Josephine McGrail: exactly. And it's also that thing, because otherwise you're always living in the narrative that goes. Please someone come and save me from me, you know. Come and save me out of my own life.

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Josephine McGrail: and understanding that actually the only one that ever can, but also ever should, save you in inverted commas.

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Josephine McGrail: bring something else out. Change the direction, is you? Why? Because you're the only one who actually truly knows what is right for you. In your heart. No one else will ever know no one else should, because they can't get there right, only you know, because only you know what it feels like to be you when your eyes are closed, and no one else exists, and no one else is watching.

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Katia Vlachos: You know. So I, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: I. And if yeah, no, no, no, no, I.

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Katia Vlachos: Agree more, and I was going to see also in coaching. We say, if it's not coming from you, it's not sustainable, anyway. Right? I mean the the only lasting changes you make are the ones that really come from from your own. So because you are the expert in your own life, you know. You know what things feel like. Nobody else.

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Josephine McGrail: 100%. And I love this so much, Katya, I'm going to ask you, actually, just, I want to ask you this. So talking of the mirror is mirror work, something that you do in your own practice, not just with clients, but also for yourself? Or is this something that you know you mentioned it here when you talked about it. But have you done a lot of mirror work yourself.

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Katia Vlachos: No, actually not.

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Josephine McGrail: Okay, yeah, yeah.

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Katia Vlachos: Yeah, no inner child work. I mean, I I have done it myself, and sometimes I'll do with my clients. And it's very, very impactful and very important. No, I just said the person in the mirror, because I was just being.

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Josephine McGrail: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

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Katia Vlachos: Have you done mirror work.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, I do it a lot, and I've done it for years and years and years, and I've also done it. It's funny it started out since I was a child. I don't know if you know this, Katya, my mom is a healer, but it started out since I was a child. Since I was a child I was obsessed with mirrors, but not in terms of oh, how do I look? I had this! Ever since I was very little. I had this

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Josephine McGrail: deep, deep knowing, and and I don't know how, but anyway, that if I if I looked into my own eyes for long enough. I would get into this kind of you know. Meditation state right? So I would look into my own eyes, and if you do that, and you soften your gaze after a while. You're no longer looking at hair this and that. You're kind of looking at something deeper beyond. And so for me, it was a way to actually connect to my own soul. So this is very deep work that I.

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Katia Vlachos: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: I have no idea. I honestly, I believe, that all of us we have all these incredible, ancient, really grounding practices, kind of with us since birth. But often parents or well-meaning people will be like, Hey, what are you doing? That's weird, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: right? Exactly. But what I've never shared that memory with anyone, by the way, but what I wanted to share about the mirror. It is such a good point that you're making, because you know the only person. And this is all about your book. The only person we can never run away from is ourself, and it's the same thing. So if you cannot look at yourself in the mirror.

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Josephine McGrail: and and you know, with a deep sense of of love, and or even just acceptance, and not in terms of looks, but really in terms of what you see beyond the physical right. If you cannot do that, then it's definitely an opportunity to start bringing you back home, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: Then you're stuck. Then you're stuck. You can't go anywhere. You're trapped right? It's yeah. You can't move forward. If you don't accept what's what's already there.

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Josephine McGrail: absolutely. And I want to share this with you as well, because I think people can relate. And it's kind of a funny way to look at relationships. So my current partner, now my fiance, by the way, yay, we should engage. It's exciting and kind of scary, and you know, one step at a time. But anyway.

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Katia Vlachos: It'll be amazing.

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Josephine McGrail: Thank you so much, love you. But anyway, so like in the beginning of relationship, he did a thing, and

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Josephine McGrail: I knew he hadn't done it to be mean or impolite, or I don't know. Inconsiderate, whatever whatever. Whatever.

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Josephine McGrail: I knew, he had done it because he was busy and lack of attention got distracted, something something. But to me it was a big deal.

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Josephine McGrail: and I had all these different, you know, very contrasting experiences in my body, because part of you know. My brain was like, I understand why he forgot, and you know it didn't come from a bad place. So tick. He's still a good boy, we can still date him. But then my body, my inner child, was like, Wow!

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Josephine McGrail: You know.

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Katia Vlachos: Wow!

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Josephine McGrail: And ever since, like I always, I was always the peacemaker in my family. So you know at all, Josie was like, no, no, no be peacemaker. We don't, you know. We don't go in there like let's not risk disturbing the peace, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: So I had this. I went in. I told Carl I was like Carl, stay in the stay in the living room. I need a minute, went into the bedroom, had this full on physical experience of little inner child who was really scared and really angry. And then adult Josie was like, no, no, we must keep the peace. And there were all these different experiences and opinions inside of me about what I should do

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Josephine McGrail: now. So I allowed myself to have that whole physical experience without putting it onto him, and then, when I landed in it, having experienced

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Josephine McGrail: the the shame, the guilt, the the anxiety, all of it, and all of this happened to happen within 20 min. So I did that whole ride.

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Josephine McGrail: and then in the end I landed on the bed, and I was kind of like.

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Josephine McGrail: so how do I feel about it now and then? This is the mirror point. This is the red thread? I asked myself.

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Josephine McGrail: Will I be able to look at myself in the mirror tonight, and still love who I am, and still feel really integrity in integrity with who I am, and still feel like I am the best parent for little Josie ever. If I ask him, you know, if I tell him it's totally okay, and you know I understand. And I was like. No, I will not.

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Josephine McGrail: And then I went into the living room. And I was like, it's really, I'm gonna swear now, it's really fucking, annoying. You did that thing, because now I actually have to change my old dynamic. And this is not okay. But I need to look in the mirror tonight and feel happy with me, so you need to go ahead and rectify what you did.

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Josephine McGrail: And he said.

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Katia Vlachos: Goosebumps.

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Josephine McGrail: And he said, I totally get it. I will do it right away.

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Katia Vlachos: Yay, that's amazing. That's amazing. And and so so right? So true, wow.

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Josephine McGrail: But.

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Katia Vlachos: I am very impressed that you actually did not

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Katia Vlachos: go through all that process there and then, cause I don't know if I would have the the self control to go into the next room and kind of go through that. I'm very impressed. But no, that's that is that is incredible. Yeah, will I be able to to still looking at me like, still, be me right if if I don't honor the part of me.

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Katia Vlachos: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Yes, I know. Bless you, I just I only I only wanted to share that because what you what you said about the mirror, it. Just so true. And it's just such a good one for everyone out there just to go. Okay, well, will this decision that I'm about to make now.

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Josephine McGrail: Well, okay, yes, I might be keeping the peace by not saying anything. I might be, you know, keeping my job security, my home security, all of these labels that makes us feel somewhat secure in a world that is ever changing, where nothing is actually certain but change. Right? That's also, like, you know, much deeper level of existential experience.

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Katia Vlachos: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: You know, or will I no longer be able to to smile and and feel proud of the woman I'm seeing in the mirror, and you know in the end of the day, if you you know, because we cannot run away from ourselves if we cannot say hello to ourselves in the mirror and then give ourselves a little a little secret high? 5. Then who are we? Right?

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah. And and and I really get sorry. I'm going to give you one more story about me.

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Katia Vlachos: I'm gonna I'm gonna steal this, though I'm like, I love this.

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Josephine McGrail: Katya. This was supposed to be about you, and now I'm like I.

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Katia Vlachos: Great because I'm taking it.

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Josephine McGrail: Share this with you. So I had a period in my life, so I came to

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Josephine McGrail: little bit about me. I originally trained as a ballerina at the Royal Danish Ballet.

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Josephine McGrail: So I was also very much super perfectionist. Every year we had an exam, and if you hadn't developed to the way that they wanted. Then you got kicked out. So basically, after the summer holiday, most of your not just best friends, but but also people that you saw more than your own family just didn't return mysteriously, didn't return. So you can imagine the pressure I was under to

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Josephine McGrail: keep up with appearances, but also, physically be, you know, able to kick high and turn and jump all the rest of it. Anyway. Long story short.

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Josephine McGrail: after 7 years there I ended up getting a teacher who really didn't support me, so I was extremely emotionally abused for like a year and a half. Anyway. Long story short, I ended up going to London. I did actually end up leaving. So just like you, I was like, Okay, I can't control this environment. But the only thing I'm in control of I can leave. And so, even though I had

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Josephine McGrail: no idea where I was going, and even though this was not just my dream, but it was also what I recognized as home. So for me to leave that was similar to leaving a family or a marriage. From that perspective it was anything I knew as safe.

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Josephine McGrail: I then left my country, left the world Danish Valley. At 16 I came to London. I got a scholarship to go into school here long story short, during that time, where obviously everything was changing, I actually ended up in a 5 year super toxic relationship. And the mirror thing is coming up now. So during those 5 years

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Josephine McGrail: it got to the point where I stopped sharing with anyone how toxic it was because obviously people would be like, oh, Josie, that's too intense. You just shouldn't be there. Why are you not leaving right, you know, and we all know addictions are not that simple? And things we do in life is moved by so many more things than most people can understand, because we don't talk about it right? Yay, so, anyway. But it got to the point, Katya, where

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Josephine McGrail: I couldn't look at myself in the mirror. I could not look at myself in my eyes. I could not look at my own reflection in the mirror, and again on paper from the outside. I was doing really well. I was dancing all around the world. I was modeling everywhere, you know. Everyone was like, Oh, Josephine is doing so well, and I was like, I am dying inside.

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Katia Vlachos: Do they know?

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Josephine McGrail: And it was just like cry for help, right? But I really remember those moments of going. I can't even look at myself in the mirror anymore, because I do not like who I have become.

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Josephine McGrail: and that thing of the elephant forgetting its own power right? So the elephant walks around with a tiny little like Indian boy holding on to elephant with a tiny little rope that the elephant could just blow on, and then the elephant would free, but the elephant has forgotten its own power. I think this is what meeting you reading uncaged really reminded me of all of that and the way you articulate. It

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Josephine McGrail: has been such an incredible memory, reflection, digestion, reinvention, and healing journey for myself, and I know it will be for, and already is for so many women all around the world. So, Katya, from my heart to yours. Thank you so so much.

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Katia Vlachos: Well, thank you, Josephine, thank you for sharing your stories, which have had an impact on me. So I really really appreciate it. Wonderful.

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Josephine McGrail: Thank you for having me, sir.

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Josephine McGrail: Thank you so much, Katya. Katya. I'm going to say goodbye to the readers now, if not the readers the listeners now and then I'll stay on the line for

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Josephine McGrail: so I'm just gonna pause here. Thank you.