#28 Leading with purpose - Ella Davidson on life, work culture and being in flow

Today’s guest is Ella Davidson – founder of The Book Publicist, mum of three, country girl at heart, and someone who’s deeply passionate about the power of purpose.

In this episode, Ella shares the pivotal moment during the pandemic that forced her to stop and reflect. With 90% of her clients gone almost overnight, and three young children at home, she had a decision to make: pause everything—or find a new way forward. She chose purpose. Her team reshaped the way they worked, launched new affordable PR packages, and continued to amplify the voices of authors whose words offered comfort, guidance, and healing in uncertain times.

But this conversation goes much deeper than just business. We explore the idea of making work fit around life—and not the other way around. For Ella, work is a huge part of her identity and excitement, but she also believes that people do their best work when they feel trusted, listened to, and safe to be their whole selves. It's not just about productivity—it’s about joy, authenticity, and connection.

We talk about what it really means to lead with purpose, to build a team culture rooted in happiness and trust, and the importance of stepping away from the constant thinking to reconnect—with nature, with people, and with ourselves.

This is an inspiring, grounded conversation about building a business that flows, creating space for meaning, and leading in a way that feels true.

Ella Davidson Founder & Director 

e: ella@thebookpublicist.co.uk

Linked In

www.thebookpublicist.co.uk

PR agency for Non-fiction Books & Experts

For your opportunity to win a LIVE coaching call with Josephine submit your 5star reviews on Spotify and Apple Music and send screen shots to josephinemcgrail@icloud.com

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Transcript

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Josephine McGrail: So Hello, hello and welcome to our beautiful podcast today today has been a long time coming. I am super excited, super delighted, really, really privileged feel over the moon about sitting down with my newfound friend, Ella Davidson. I'm going to read this out because it sounds so good, and I was about to find the words myself, and I thought.

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Josephine McGrail: Why make something up when someone else has already done it? So in the words, Here, Ella Davidson, you are the founder of the Beautiful Book Publicist Company that's called the Book Publicist. You're an esteemed book publicist with over 20 years of experience and is passionate about nonfiction books.

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Josephine McGrail: Her entrepreneurial spirit and keen understanding of the power of publicity led her to establish the book publicist. In 2,008 she had a clear vision to create an honest results, focused and non-fluff pr agency to enable talented authors and experts to share their brilliant ideas, etc. Etc. That's where we're going to stop with about you this afternoon. But this afternoon

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Josephine McGrail: I just really want to share

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Josephine McGrail: everything that you have. You have sort of discovered in your gorgeous life so far, and for those listeners that are completely new to you, Ella, if we could just start out by going back in time a little bit. So do you want to just share with us where you're from? And what kind of setting did you grow up in.

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Ella Davidson: Well, Hi, Josephine, it's lovely to be here. My first, st ever. Podcast so I'm a Pr person that's much happier, the other side of the camera. So actually, this is really important, lovely one to me. And it's so nice to be talking to you. So yeah, a bit about me. I'm actually fat in the village I grew up in. So I went full circle. I kind of grew up in a village called Dawson, tiny, little beautiful village on the Welsh border, very near the book Town of Hay, on my which you may have heard of.

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Ella Davidson: Big, famous book Festival. So I think that's maybe what influenced my love of books. But early age went off to university, went traveling, went to London, met my husband, moved away from London. Being a country girl I loved. I loved London. It was lots of fun, but I was kind of country girl at heart, and then lived up in North Yorkshire for a while, where I set up the book publicist

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Ella Davidson: and then had. I've got 3 boys, but after the second boy we decided to move back to Herefordshire.

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Ella Davidson: And then, quite recently, over a year ago, we built this house, so we kind of found a beautiful rundown little cottage in the village that I grew up in. And so we extended that. And essentially, it's a beautiful garden. We've kind of like been working on and having a bit more of a kind of inside outside life. And that's where we've kind of brought our family now. So in terms of

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Ella Davidson: where I'm from and who I am. That's it. I'm a country girl from Herefordshire, on the Welsh town.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God! And this is so beautiful! Thank you so much for sharing, and also, Ella, like you beforehand. You excited me and delighted me. And now you make so much sense with everything that you do, because what you just shared is not only are you the founder of your own company, ie. The book publicist, and the bone and the pillar, and the foundation of that.

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Josephine McGrail: But the fact that you also decided to go back to where your roots were originally from, and, moreover, not just buy a house, but build a house.

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Josephine McGrail: So you're again the founder of your own life, the founder of your home life, the structure of your life, and you know the home, the home, and how we choose to live is such a reflection of what we're actually about. You know, it really represents something very deep. And on top of that you're also the founder and the creator of 3 human beings. So I just want to start off saying to me, You're just representing this sort of really

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Josephine McGrail: grounded earthy, stabilizing and rooted energy. And you know that's what I meant with you make so much sense, now that I know these extra bits about you.

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Ella Davidson: And it's so interesting that you said rooted. Because if you kind of take that analogy that when I looked at this house

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Ella Davidson: it's surrounded by trees, and you can't. I don't think you can see them actually do. They do have a look, but if you look through my window

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Ella Davidson: oh, I can see

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Ella Davidson: walked around, and and trees have always, wherever I've been. When we were living in London we'd go to the Parks. We go to Wimbledon common, and whenever I felt stressed or had to make a decision with that through the business, or or in my personal life.

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Ella Davidson: being around trees, for some reason has helped me make decisions, and just, you know, kind of half an hour walk around trees, and I kind of felt that I don't know inner peace and that kind of ability to make a decision.

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Ella Davidson: I think, growing up around that and then coming back to that is

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Ella Davidson: Nature, I guess, has been really important to me.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God! And this resonates so much with me, so so, as you knew I do energy healing as well, and I always relate everything back to nature and for me. Similarly to you, it was never kind of like, you know, a connective kind of decision of like. I've read this in a magazine, or you know I was taught. This is a good thing to do, so equal stress release for me. It literally goes back to

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Josephine McGrail: ever since I was little my great grandmother. Whenever I would go to see her she had this huge big garden. It was quite wild, and I would just sort of lose myself and daydream myself away to sort of better and brighter places, being in that garden. And it was really, you know, going on a journey of discovery just through her garden and smelling all the smells, and she taught me how to plant, and she

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Josephine McGrail: taught me how to know when things were ripe and what wasn't ripe, and she really gave me that incredible joy and healing experience of living in the cycle and in sync with nature, and really, just naturally, through having those experiences. It really set me up for life, because she would always go, you know, like.

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Josephine McGrail: but look, you know, we plant the seed of the carrot or the potato in the soil, but

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Josephine McGrail: we don't. We don't sort of dig down after one week and go. Oh, has it grown, you know, we trust that things take time, and sometimes it's going to bloom and sprout, and sometimes it won't

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Josephine McGrail: and dense life. And it's okay. So I really strongly connect with that. I want to, because I know I know I don't have you for the 10 HI would have hoped for I want to pivot us into the thing that I know you're super passionate about talking about today, which is what you have been creating and what you continue to create and what you continue to really

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Josephine McGrail: I keep having this word heralding. I don't know if that's an English word, but you continue to sort of pioneer within your own company. And this is all about how we can and how we must choose to create a work life that really supports our everyday life, not the other way around. So Ella.

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Josephine McGrail: the the torch, the the speaker is yours.

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Ella Davidson: And you know what. It's something I've learned from when I was in London, and I was working for that climbing that ladder, you know you finish university like. Let's go climb the ladder, climb the ladder without really thinking, what do I want? Who am I? What makes me happy?

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Ella Davidson: And therefore ended up in jobs where I wasn't happy, and therefore I wasn't very good at them. I didn't fulfill, and I didn't have purpose, and I was scared, and I didn't feel I felt nervous. And it was really from those experiences, and one particularly bad job that I had in London where I felt actually like. I need to ring someone every time I go to work. I feel so scared I need building up before I can even go in

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Ella Davidson: horrible experience, and

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Ella Davidson: myself and my husband left London, and he had a similar similar kind of relationship with his work.

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Ella Davidson: And when I set up the book publicist, that was the key thing for me is that huge responsibility. If I employ other people, you're kind of responsible for their happiness because they're with you a lot of time. And I've seen various surveys. And they talk about actually, the relationship you have with your boss or your manager

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Ella Davidson: has more impact on your life than the relationship you have with your partner.

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Josephine McGrail: Exactly.

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Ella Davidson: And I felt I felt this huge, and I knew kind of how it felt when you did have a negative relationship.

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Ella Davidson: and

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Ella Davidson: for a few reasons, one just being a decent person. You want people to be happy, and I don't want that on me for someone to fear how I felt.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah.

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Ella Davidson: But also, I think, from a business point of view, if people are happy and they have their purpose, and they're working in the way they want to work.

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Josephine McGrail: Hmm.

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Ella Davidson: They bring their best selves to work, and they and that's where you get amazing things. They're not just working for you. They're working with you, and you're working together. And then I think you create something, but

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Ella Davidson: is not only brilliant in terms of the skill set, but also

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Ella Davidson: the culture and the people around you and the you know, the authors we work with. They feel it. They know if it's a happy company.

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Ella Davidson: or not. So basically, ever since, and particularly since Covid. But ever since I started the company that's been

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Ella Davidson: the the most important thing. Everything else will come. The clients will come. The money will come, everything will come.

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Ella Davidson: You just look after people, and everyone's happy, and everyone's moving in the right direction. And actually, sometimes they need to branch off and go in other ways. We had 2 amazing graduates that joined us

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Ella Davidson: worked with us for about 3 years. One of them wanted to go to Oxford University Press. So she went and did some work there, and one went to a big charity

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Ella Davidson: and wanted to live in doing house and work in a city, and I absolutely. I was so happy for them. But you know what both of them have come back, and that was the biggest compliment for me kind of let people fly, and if it's right, they come back. And if it's not that, that's okay as well. But

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Ella Davidson: yeah, you don't own them. It's

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Ella Davidson: it's a kind of mutual respect, I think, when you recruit people.

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Josephine McGrail: A 100%. And it also sounds like something that was coming up for me. I'm a really visual person, and and I get so inspired by who I surround myself with. And as you were talking, Ella, I literally saw a tree through you. It's like your sort of approach is almost like it's an inside out job.

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Josephine McGrail: So you again, like you mentioned something that I think is so important, you know. Often you will have more impact over a person's well-being than perhaps their partner than perhaps part of their family. And actually, this is a really interesting thing, because again, you are that pillar. You are that tree, and in essence, you know, when people come to work for you, you're also their livelihood. And this is something. You know. I know a lot of people don't like to talk about money, but in the end of the day.

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Josephine McGrail: you know, you are absolutely representing to to the primitive brain, you know, and we do operate very much in our nervous system. Right? So to the primitive brain, the primitive brain who we work for also equals.

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Josephine McGrail: will I have a roof over my head. Will I be able to pay my rent, you know, just like, Will, the basic needs be met. So there's you know you have to as a leader, you know. Understand that responsibility and understand that. You know

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Josephine McGrail: this is how other people will interact with. You know. Of course, we can have lots of wonderful things in common and shared values and all of this. But as a leader this is an extension of responsibility that you have to ground yourself and plant yourself into. It's not something we can just put aside. So so the way you were talking about

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Josephine McGrail: why, this is so close to your heart, and why you choose to embrace people the way that you do, and in the ways that you do, which I'm going to ask specifically about in a moment. It really made me feel like again, like, yeah, like the mythology. The approach is an inside out. You're that rooted grounded tree.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, you know, yeah.

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Ella Davidson: I, and I think empathy. I think if you can understand how you would feel and and.

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Josephine McGrail: And.

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Ella Davidson: Stop looking at it as a company with

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Ella Davidson: and names like, actually, it doesn't matter. Whatever our job net job titles are, it really doesn't matter, because we're a team, and I think as soon as you

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Ella Davidson: think of it in that way, then you can't do anything but be kind to people, and you can't do anything but check in. Like most of my time is spent.

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Ella Davidson: and I and and sort of checking in, how are you having conversations, and I used to think, Oh, I'm spending so much time doing this Hr. Stuff, as I'd call it, and I think, as the company's grown, I've realized. That isn't Hr stuff that is

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Ella Davidson: running a business like leadership. I don't know. I don't like to call myself leader, but you know what I mean. It's, I think, that it is just checking. Everyone's okay. And it's all running smooth. And and you know.

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Josephine McGrail: But that's exactly it. And also again, I'm just. I will eventually get away from this tree analogy. But I just keep saying it's almost like we can imagine that. So you're kind of mother Tree. Right? You're the trunk of the tree, and you're the big great roots of the tree. But every single time you decide to invite someone into your company.

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Josephine McGrail: you know, into your tree they create a new root with you. So you're adding on roots and roots and roots. Now, if one of the roots is not really fully in it, and not really finding themselves, then the root won't go deep, and that will actually, then the tree itself will not be able to grow the whole business, the whole venture, the whole project, the whole being, will be destabilizing. So I think this actually makes so much sense. And that's why I keep going like

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Josephine McGrail: it's an inside out approach. So now.

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Ella Davidson: If you keep that tree in a pot where their roots can't grow. I you don't find out what your team are good at, what they love and let them grow. Then that tree isn't going to get much bigger, either. You're going to dwarf it, aren't you? And that is true as well, just letting go a little bit, not micromanaging, and that's something I've had to learn, because it's your baby, and it's like, Oh, I want to do it all my way. And then you're like, no realizing actually, other people have skills that I don't have and other

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Ella Davidson: better than I can, and letting them have the freedom to do that to grow, to push, you know, for their roots to ground.

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Josephine McGrail: It. And so, and also so tell us a little bit more about how you do that in terms of practicalities, because I remember in the little gorgeous thing that you sent over. You were mentioning something about. You know. Certain people work better in the evening. Some people work better in the morning. So on a really sort of practical levels, what are some of the things? Some of the methods that I'm sure you're still discovering, because we're an ever growing, evolving race species. Right? But yeah, tell us, tell us a little bit about some things that you're doing.

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Ella Davidson: Yeah, so we try and be as flexible as we can like. Obviously, there's some work that needs to be done in the kind of 2 to 4 time, but then, outside of that, sorry the 10 to 2 time. But outside of that, if people want to start early, if they want to work late then. That's absolutely fine, and we I I encourage everyone. Come to me any questions. Come to me. So someone said to me, oh, I'd love to go to Berlin for a month. Can I do that? Can I? Can I work? Yeah, that's absolutely fine. Or someone said to me.

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Ella Davidson: one of the ladies loves to spend time with her children over the summer.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah.

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Ella Davidson: We're quieter over the summer, she said. Could I take some more time off over the summer? Yeah, absolutely. That's fine. And so I think things like that. I mean it stemmed. We used to have an office in hay, and then Covid happened, and as awful as it was, I think it did force us to do things in a different way, and then forced us to realize, oh, actually, perhaps we could do things in a different way rather than just carry on as we had without thinking about it.

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Ella Davidson: And I remember now I remember being barefoot outside in my garden, phoning everyone and saying, how are you finding it working from home? And I remember all of the responses one was like, I love going for a run in the morning, or I love doing yoga at lunchtime. Oh, I don't have to do an hour commute to where you are. So we decided, okay, let's just all work remotely, and that's been great because it links back to people

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Ella Davidson: being who they want to be and doing what they want with their life. So some people work is quite a huge part of their life like me. I'm a little bit of a work addict, and my husband can't shut me up because what I would love to do is just talk about business and processes. I love it.

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Ella Davidson: I mean

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Ella Davidson: very aware that all the rest of our team, you know, like canoeing, and like horse riding, or whatever. But they they don't. It's not their baby in quite the same way, and and it's nice that they can

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Ella Davidson: have their other interests.

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Ella Davidson: So we have things like what do we call it?

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Ella Davidson: Charity days, I think we call it. But anyway, a chance to be able to take take some days off in the year if they do something that's meaningful to them. So one of our team her mum, brings up labradors for blind blind people.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, wow!

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Ella Davidson: She took a couple of days while they were being born and helping like support those and that kind of thing. So lots of things like that really.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God!

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Ella Davidson: There's nothing specific that we do. I don't think other than just being open to

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Ella Davidson: not not being too rigid and just being open to listen really to what what is important to other people, and it varies from person to person.

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Josephine McGrail: Right. No, but Ella, I think I mean

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Josephine McGrail: I remember this is going to be so many years. I think I was only 20 or something, but I have always been so fascinated by what moves us as human beings, and especially in terms of the relationship with ourself, a relationship that has been reflected into others and into groups, and then also into whether it's a small company, big company, whatever it is. And I remember reading this book, I think I was only 20, and was all about

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Josephine McGrail: of, you know, different approaches to how you know, as a leader, as a founder, and I know you use it like. I don't want to use the word leadership, but you are the founder. You are the mother tree. So, Mama Tree. Here we go, and you know, how? How can we, you know, ensure that

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Josephine McGrail: people that that choose to to come into our, into our group of trees, into our network, that people feels impact, that people feel empowered

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Josephine McGrail: to speak up, to share what you know, whether it's that they are scared of something they're worried about something or that they're excited about something. You know the fact that you are naturally, you know, so deeply radiating

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Josephine McGrail: that approach, because that was what this book was all about it was that feeling of as a leader. You know, you're not just sitting on the top of the pyramid, you know, and there is another way to create really empowered wonderful communities. Because that's really what it is. Wonderful relationships where everyone really want to be. Part of this, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: And and the fact that you know you're creating this flexibility where people are coming to you. And they're asking those questions. You know. That is the ultimate

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Josephine McGrail: place to be in, you know. Because, yeah. So go on.

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Ella Davidson: And you're right. No, it's just it is that it's feeling safe.

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Ella Davidson: And it goes back to the bad experience I had, and I don't ever want everyone to not feel safe. But if if they feel safe and that's not that we say yes every time, and they're okay with that, that's the wonderful thing they feel safe to ask.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah.

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Ella Davidson: They also feel happy

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Ella Davidson: if we say no, because they know that we're listening. It's not just a straight no, but actually it it. We listen and we listen to them. And they have brilliant ideas. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, we should tell other people to do that.

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Ella Davidson: And like you say they're empowered. People who then make everything better.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, a hundred percent. And it's also like, as you know, an organism is only as strong as you know, inverted commas. It's weakest link right? And the weakest link might just be sitting on the greatest idea ever. And so to create that environment where people are really encouraged to come and like you said sometimes it's a no, sometimes it's a maybe, sometimes it's a let's have a let's have a think about it.

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Josephine McGrail: But to create that flow. Because that I mean, that's the ideal scenario in all relationships, right? And also the relationship that we have within ourselves. It's that thing of we might, you know. Let's say I'll tell you a personal story. So I decided I wanted to have a go at riding a scooter. Now my 1st thought was like. Oh, my God, I'm super scared! Lundy is very busy. And then another thought was like.

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Josephine McGrail: What if I can't pass the test like I got really scared. I had all the shame around test. And you know, and then again, you know. So then in essence, I shut myself down completely. But then I put on my other hat, which was like compassionately curious. I was like.

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Josephine McGrail: but what if I'm just allowed to experiment?

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Josephine McGrail: So I did, and I went out, and I did it. But you know, like it's that thing of

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Josephine McGrail: recognizing within ourselves how quickly we shut ourselves down before someone else has even shot ourselves down, and then creating that space outwardly, just as a natural extension of who you are, because again, you know, you are the root. You are the mama tree of your gorgeous community.

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Ella Davidson: It was so interesting as well. What you said there about actually thinking, oh, it's okay, can experiment. And if I fail, that's fine. And that's another thing we do. And I haven't thought about it until you said that. And I said, Oh, yeah, that's really helpful as well. So we have a Thursday meeting.

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Ella Davidson: and we celebrate what's gone brilliantly. How how's everyone done? You know what Media wins? Have you had? What new new client new contacts you got to share. But the other thing we do is we talk about our flops, and I talk about my flops, which I think helps everyone else say, Oh, yeah. So what went wrong? And I'll be like. And and actually, I'm the biggest mess I mess up all the time. So I'm like, Oh, this happened, and this happened when I almost did this, and oh, you know, I sent a proposal with something stupid in it, or whatever

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Ella Davidson: and then we just partly. We just

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Ella Davidson: talk about them and laugh about them. Oh, God! What did I do this week? Be recognizing? We're all human. We all make mistakes. Also, what did we learn from them?

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Ella Davidson: But mainly it's just so that we can say it's okay. I say to them, if you're not making mistakes, then you're not pushing yourself enough. You're not kind of like feeling relaxed. I'm doing something wrong. If you don't feel like you can make mistakes, because you all know when you don't make a mistake. You're not really stepping outside of the zone that you know what to do. So you're not growing at all back to the growth.

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Ella Davidson: You're not growing, are you? If you're not reaching far enough, then you're just playing it safe, which is fine, and the businesses do run, and they just play it safe. But it's quite boring, and it's not great for you individually to develop.

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Josephine McGrail: Let me!

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Ella Davidson: Sing a podcast today.

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Josephine McGrail: Yes, exactly. Actually. Should we just take a moment.

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Ella Davidson: And I've forgotten since we've been talking, that I was even doing a podcast. So maybe it's a new thing for Me doing podcasts.

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Josephine McGrail: Ella, I'm looking forward to being, you know, a guest on your podcast the Ella show the Ella, special, the yeah, the book, publicist. Podcast yeah, there's going to be, anyway, I'm going to stop there. Listen. You know what you just were sharing here is so important. So

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Josephine McGrail: is, you know I am all about the human element, all about the human connection, all about the heart to heart, and the fact that you were sharing that thing again as a leader, as the founder

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Josephine McGrail: you are sharing openly, hey? These are all the things that you know. These were the good thing of, you know, in brackets like these were the. These are the things that went well. These were the things where? Oh, I might do this differently next time. Things that you know, might have disappointed you, or things where you were disappointed in yourself, or in a situation, or you know whatever happened to share that openly, because this makes you relatable. This, this allows you.

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Josephine McGrail: This invites people into your being because you're not sitting there going, hey? I'm perfect and super rigid, and you know I don't ever make a mistake. You're saying, Hey, I'm a human being, like all of you guys, and if you want to be in my canoe, jump on over, and we can scrabble away together, you know, like

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Josephine McGrail: that's, you know, that relatability, that's what people fall in love with. That's also why, you know why I was like, I want to work, Ravella. You know I wanted to work with you.

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Ella Davidson: With you, and I'm finding I don't know whether you're finding this in your kind of sphere of work, but I'm finding more and more the authors that are coming to us. And and you know big, serious business authors and entrepreneurs. I'm not talking just kind of well-being type who you expect to be lovely and nice, but but you know leadership type and the leadership stuff that you do.

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Josephine McGrail: Hmm.

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Ella Davidson: But I'm finding more and more. It's the authenticity. And the you know they're sat there in the hoodies, or like, you know, I mean dress, how you want rest in a suit, but I'm kind of just, you know, super relaxed, but I think it is more authentic and kinder and more understanding and just a bit more human. Across the board I find.

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Josephine McGrail: A 100%. And it's also like it's again, it's the human element that we fall in love with. So you know, like our shared friend Leanne. Right? So Leanne Muskell. Dear listeners out there. We did an interview a few episodes ago. Go back. She's the expert in Adhd Adhd autism, all of it, anyway, back to you and me. And the thing about Leanne that I love so much is that she's fully herself. I've heard her share the most amazing things. But I've also

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Josephine McGrail: heard her and felt her shared unapologetically all of the really big challenges that she's gone through in her life. And that's

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Josephine McGrail: that's a genuine connection. Then, all of a sudden, right there, in that moment, between tease and laughter, I can find myself. I see myself in her, and I see myself in you. And that is why we're having this conversation. And that's also why I started the podcast. In the 1st place, Ella, I wanted to create a platform where

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Josephine McGrail: people could share a genuine life story and genuine life tools that they through lived experience. Not just, you know. Oh, you know it's great to study, but we can't the best. The best school is the school of life, you know. This is what you've genuinely experienced, and these are the genuine results you're getting, and if it inspires others, then, Hallelujah! You know.

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Ella Davidson: And it's I mean, we do a lot of AI books. And I saw I come across this terrifying thing the other day

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Ella Davidson: because it was so amazing. But it was someone had uploaded their book to this. Whatever AI system it was.

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Ella Davidson: and it had created a podcast.

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Ella Davidson: Totally just from what was in the book of a person interviewing the author about this about this topic. Whatever's in the book, and it kind of brings back to if we don't have this human and that connection, because that's the difference, really, that you can tell. That's kind of where

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Ella Davidson: we're better than AI and AI can't yet, or I'm sure never really create that heart.

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Josephine McGrail: Hmm.

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Ella Davidson: That. And it's and it's the mistakes, and it's the warts, and it's the fears and and all of that kind of stuff, isn't it? It's our flops that makes us human.

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Josephine McGrail: A 100%, a hundred percent. And it's. And it's also, you know, it's yeah. And and you know, you definitely ooze, this is the word that comes to my mind right now. You you are oozing this incredibly warm, nurturing, empowering, motivating, inspiring energy. You know, just by just by your presence, Ella, you know and and like, I said as well, you know, like

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Josephine McGrail: when you and I met over that zoom call a few months ago.

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Josephine McGrail: You know, my friend Leanne, she barely told me anything about you, Ella was, you know. Leanne was just like Hey, speak to Ella, and I had such a good feeling about your energy, and then, when we met, I was just like, I'm in love with Ella. I don't fully understand what Ella does, but I'm all in. I'm jumping into that canoe. I am in the garden.

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Ella Davidson: That's so true. And I think that's so lovely that actually, sometimes it's the person it's a bit like I trust you and trust is everything we've spoken about today. So all of my employees, my team, whatever you want to call them, it's the trust that allows me to say, Yeah, you go run with that, or oh, you really want to go and work there. I trust you can do that. We all work remotely, so it's all trust.

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Ella Davidson: Not looking or caring. I just trust that they care about the job I actually, and they'll probably listen to this after. But I don't even really care how many hours they're doing. I care that they care, and I care that, and I know that they do, and I know that they care.

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Josephine McGrail: Hmm.

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Ella Davidson: Their joy comes from the authors getting being happy.

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Josephine McGrail: Okay.

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Ella Davidson: Comes from them, them doing the work and keeping them happy. In the same way that I care about my team being happy, and I think as long as just if everyone just cares about people.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, a hundred percent.

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Ella Davidson: And trusts people. And it's that trust.

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Josephine McGrail: It. It definitely is. And you know what you know what just came to mind as we're talking here now, Ella, I'm actually sitting here going.

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Josephine McGrail: What you're doing is authentic leadership like this is actually what you're doing. It's not only genuine and caring, it's authentic. And that is because you're authentically, you fully standing in your power with branches that are reaching great and high, and other branches that perhaps are not fully grown in that year. Like you're fully you, with all of you, and that's why you are attracting into your canoe, into your roots network

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Josephine McGrail: people that are fully resonating with you, you know, that's what authentic leadership is about. You know, it always starts it's an inside out job. So yeah, this is you. Oh.

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Ella Davidson: Thank you. That's really nice to hear, because.

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Ella Davidson: even though it is authentic, and I do think I am totally me. It's such hard work.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah.

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Ella Davidson: Like like leadership and and being, I guess, true and nice. And and you I have to check myself constantly like don't get me wrong. I have those negative thoughts, or those cross thoughts, or those mistrusting thoughts, and I have to check myself, and it takes

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Ella Davidson: it. It kind of takes a positive action. It's not just kind of natural.

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Josephine McGrail: I think.

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Ella Davidson: That being authentic isn't the same as being natural. I think you have to kind of really try to.

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Ella Davidson: Authentic and try to.

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Ella Davidson: yeah, check yourself, really, I guess, just to keep thinking. I always I say this to my children, say it to everyone.

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Ella Davidson: Presume people want the best. Presume people want to do the best. Don't presume the worst of someone, and if something isn't coming out as their best. It's probably a miscommunication or something there normally, because they're not happy in some way. I mean, that's when I'm unhappy. That's when the not so nice. Ella comes out and you have to check it, don't you? Anything hang on what's causing that?

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Ella Davidson: What's causing me to manage in that way, or to micromanage in that way. And it's not because I'm stressed or I'm overwhelmed. But it's nothing to do with the other people. It's

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Ella Davidson: come in here really.

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Josephine McGrail: 100. I mean it always is. It always is. And thank you for pointing that out that you know it's not just all. It's not all easy, but it's a choice we make, and it's always a choice we make, you know, every day, every moment is a choice we have. So. I know you have time, so I know you don't have a lot of time. So I want to pivot around again, and I want to ask you.

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Josephine McGrail: going back to this moment because this was really pivotal. When I read our little brief, your email to me before our podcast so you wrote about that moment when Covid happened. And you see it, I think you mentioned around 90% of your business kind of was like woo. So take us back there, and just just talk us through a little bit about what were some things, what voices came up to you? What whispers came to you during that time, because obviously it was super challenging for everyone.

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Ella Davidson: I mean it was we had at the time. I had a 4 month old baby.

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Ella Davidson: a 5 year old and a 7 8 year old.

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Ella Davidson: Me and my husband were, I mean, don't get me wrong. I had a house in the countryside, so I do feel very lucky. I had outdoor space, so that that was really nice.

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Ella Davidson: But we had an office in hay, and literally overnight. We don't have retainers where kind of people are tied in, and we don't have. We don't work in that way. We're very much

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Ella Davidson: work with us while it's working with you. Kind of thing working for you so

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Ella Davidson: pretty pretty much overnight. The phone calls are coming in. Oh, we love you guys, but it's really difficult time for us. We can't be be doing totally get it like, absolutely. That's totally fine. That's totally fine, totally fine. But you know, we we still had a company of kind of, and I think it was maybe 10 people, 8 people at that time.

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Ella Davidson: and I kind of. We sat down, and me and my husband. This was it was the time where you could. Was it called furlough? Yeah, you could furlough people. So the government would pay wages. And and basically you wouldn't have to work. And in a lot of ways I thought, well, that would be nice. I can just look after the kids and actually do this teaching job that I'm supposed to be doing as well and not work

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Ella Davidson: that didn't feel right. It didn't feel right, because it just felt like

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Ella Davidson: I think for me. And I think for a lot of people. Work is still their purpose.

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Josephine McGrail: Hmm, yes.

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Ella Davidson: And I mean unashamedly. I can say that having brought up children and being a little bit itching to get back to work, my husband. I mean, we were like, Mom, dad, my husband does more than 50% of of childcare, if you want to call it that. But

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Ella Davidson: yeah, yeah, well, absolutely. And

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Ella Davidson: yeah, we and I just felt like, what? Okay? It felt like giving up somehow. And I just thought.

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Ella Davidson: our work is our purpose. They kind of dug down deep, said, Right, what can we do? And it was like going back to when I 1st started the business, when it was just me and I was scrambling for work. What can I do? How this is coming from nothing. How do I find work?

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Ella Davidson: And so we did that. And we kind of contacted lots of people understanding that, you know. Actually.

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Ella Davidson: they couldn't invest, slashed all our prices down. And we're kind of still working. And we became busy

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Ella Davidson: just to make ends meet, really. But that was okay, because it was kind of so valuable.

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Josephine McGrail: Yes, still doing what we were doing. Yes.

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Ella Davidson: Partly for us and our day to day, and what we're doing partly for our purpose, partly

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Ella Davidson: Oh, I mean, far apart from a business

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Ella Davidson: kind of side of things. I think it showed the business going, and it kept going, but also, honestly. And it's why we do what we do, partly because we had authors that were talking about how to talk to your children, how to be. And we had. We were doing a book, assertive, mum angry, mum. We had books on leadership and resilience, and I was kind of like, why I love what I do is because

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Ella Davidson: we just get to pass on this amazing knowledge that our authors have to people who need it, and during lockdown people needed what our authors were saying more than ever.

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Ella Davidson: It was hugely important, the kind of advice and tips they were sharing. So it was nice. And actually, we had enough people that said, Yeah, actually, let's keep going.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh no!

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Ella Davidson: So, you know, they kept getting publicity. And the media was still obviously reporting. Actually, probably a lot more people sat reading the media. So we kind of just clung on in that way and just stay true to like, what are we doing, ie. Sharing these important things? How can we? What's the minimum like? Obviously, there's a business head as well. But what's the minimum? We can actually do that for? Let's do it for that, then. And those authors have come back to us and have put their prices up, you know. Post Covid. It wasn't kind of like. Oh, no, they understood.

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Josephine McGrail: Okay.

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Ella Davidson: Appreciated that we were, you know, a quarter of the price.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, yeah.

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Ella Davidson: So it was lovely. It was really really nice, and it was a really nice community. Feel with the team, but also the authors we work with to not not as usual, but almost kind of like. Well, what can we do to help people in this situation? Let's keep doing that.

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Josephine McGrail: A 100%, a hundred percent. And I'm just sitting here nodding because it was exactly the similar situation that took place for me, because I am really not considering myself a lot of like very technical person. And even before Lockdown happened, I sort of decided to not do anything in person anymore. And I do all my talks. Everything was always me in person being out there.

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Josephine McGrail: and I called all my clients up, and I was like as of tomorrow. I'm doing everything online. And I have a lot of agents for the talks that I do. And they've all like obese. I don't think any of the companies are going to hire you, and I work a lot for City of London.

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Josephine McGrail: and I was like, well, it will be what it will be. And next thing you know, I was on Zoom, and then the companies, like the financial district in London, was opening it up to their sister companies in the States and in Australia and in Asia. So all of a sudden, I was just this online personality. But it was exactly what you said for me. It?

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, okay, it's great. You know. I'm self-employed, and I wasn't getting that furlough. That wasn't an option. But it wasn't actually for the money for me it was 100% that.

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Josephine McGrail: by the way, nothing wrong with money money is great. We all need it. But for me it was 100% that I was like, I know me, and I will literally get super down. If I'm not doing my purpose like my purpose. It has to get out there. Otherwise I just don't feel good, and then I can't be good for anyone to be around. So you know it was. Yes, it was great for the world that I was out there. But it was really like again looking after the 1st relationship, which is, I'm only responsible for making sure my own energy is high, so I can really resonate with like

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Josephine McGrail: you needed it for your purpose. And then, as a collective, you were also bringing purpose to the people you're working with and tunneling their messages out into the wider world. So I'm so resonating with you.

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Ella Davidson: And sometimes it takes something

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Ella Davidson: to show. I mean, it was a horrible thing to shake things up, but some kind of change does show that when something changes, opportunities can come from that, you know. I bet you do a lot of online stuff now. And I think we all do kind of you know, new services come from change. And it's just so. So I think that's kind of important, isn't it? Just to think

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Ella Davidson: it's good to just stop sometimes, and it's probably the same as what I do when I go for a walk in the trees, stop and pause and think. Actually

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Ella Davidson: that sometimes the answer comes to you when you're thinking so hard to try and find, make a decision, or think of an answer, and when you stop and I know you do. Yoga. So it's probably really linked to that. But I find when I stop suddenly the answer comes, and I'm like, Oh, right? Yeah, okay.

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Josephine McGrail: A 100%. And it's also like what I really love to do again, relating it to sort of nature, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: like and sorry for the swearing. I always go. Who the fuck am I to try and predict what is going to happen? You know life is not a chess board. And when you think about it, you know, regardless of belief systems, something brought us here, whatever that something is right. There's a natural cycle. There's a rhythm. Something brought us here, something decided to develop us within the fetus, give us all these amazing extremities, etc.

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Josephine McGrail: Life was taken care of for the 1st 9 months of our existence. And then we plumb onto this planet.

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Josephine McGrail: And then, you know, all of a sudden, we start to have a brain that decides that it doesn't. It's no longer in the belly. It's outside of the belly, and somehow life becomes scary, right? It's like we we trust in life when we needed life for the 1st 9 months. And then once we're here, it's like, Okay, no, thanks.

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Josephine McGrail: You know.

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Ella Davidson: Sounds good.

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Ella Davidson: And do you find I might certainly find this, that, and I can't explain it, and I don't necessarily have any belief system that that can define it. There's probably lots that define it actually. But sometimes.

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Ella Davidson: if I'm trying too hard to make something work in business, for example, I try and trying trying. It doesn't work. And then if I stop and just do something like talk to the team, and we all have a laugh, and the culture changes, and the culture is feeling good, and it does link back to that. Then the only word I can use to describe it is, it flows, and you can't. I can't say why, but the you know, the authors start coming in, and people you start winning things, and it's all kind of linked. But if you start trying too hard or trying, sometimes I kind of am working on a project.

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Ella Davidson: and I feel totally overwhelmed and stressed by it to the point where I'm taking it home. And I'm like, you know, talking to the children. But actually, I'm just thinking about this thing.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Ella Davidson: And not in a nice way, not in a kind of I'm so enthusiastic by this. I want to think about it, but you know I've got to solve it. I've got to solve it way, and it never gets solved that way. And sometimes I think, actually just drop it. What's the worst gonna happen if you just drop that idea, because if if it's taking this long to figure out, maybe it's not ever gonna it's not right, you know it's not right for you or the company.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God! So true! And it's also that thing of like, I always say, like, you know, we're using the tool that created the problem, in the 1st place, to try and figure out the solution.

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Ella Davidson: Yeah, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: You know the brain, as you know, it's fear-based, right? It's there to keep us safe. It's also there to be creative. But 1st and foremost. It's there to keep us safe.

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Josephine McGrail: And so you're using the wrong tool, you know. Totally. We all do that right. We're like, I'm going to think my way to the solution, and, like you said so like, you know, whatever you need to do, go into nature, you know. Do some breathwork dance around whatever you need to do. Speak to a friend, have a love, watch a movie, whatever you need to do, but like you need space.

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Josephine McGrail: Because when you have a little bit of space away from the what the brain will tell you is the problem. Then all of a sudden you can see the trees again. We call that in Danish. When you're too close, you don't see the tree you just see bark and bark is just like a tight little pattern.

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Ella Davidson: You can feel your brain shutting down because you can't function to do simple things either.

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Josephine McGrail: Not.

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Ella Davidson: You just become useless. And you know, I guess that's why people burn out, don't they? They're kind of working too hard.

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Josephine McGrail: A 100% exactly. And talking of working so hard, I'm noticing we're going over time. So I'm going to stop you here in 1 min, because I know you say quarter 2, and it's 49 very quickly, my love, because you have so much wisdom, and it's been such a joy having you here, and I always ask this. So I do want to ask you this before we finish

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Josephine McGrail: in your incredible life. Allah, with all of the ups, and all of the downs, and all of the beauty, and all of the celebrations, and all of the failures, and the fear, and all of it, and all that juicy cauldron that's been your life up until this moment. If you had just one sole message for humanity, what would it be.

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Ella Davidson: Oh, that's a good one, you you didn't give me that one in advance.

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Josephine McGrail: I know.

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Josephine McGrail: Whatever pops into your heart, and your mind is perfect right now.

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Ella Davidson: You know what I you know what I thought. It's slightly from a business perspective.

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Ella Davidson: I thought lots of things about trusting yourself, but actually ask for help. I think it's really trusting humanity, because I really believe.

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Ella Davidson: and I have found this time and time again.

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Ella Davidson: if you ask for help honestly, and I don't mean in a salesy way, or trying to manipulate someone. But if you just say I need help, could you help me?

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Ella Davidson: 9 times out of 10, someone will help you. So yeah, I would say, don't be afraid to ask others for help. Whether that's.

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Ella Davidson: you know, relationship, a friend or a business

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Ella Davidson: the amount of times. And I'm so trying to solve a business question.

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Ella Davidson: I just think, well, who do I admire? Who could help me? And I just ask, and people are very, very generous and very kind.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God, I absolutely love that. And and through the asking we're actually also demonstrating to our own brain that we're not alone. We are not actually ever alone. We're not on this planet alone, and we're not here to do it all alone, and that includes celebrating stuff or feeling sad about stuff or feeling scared about stuff, and the minute we open that up, then shame and anxiety and frustration no longer has any places to to live.

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Ella Davidson: Yeah, lovely. And you're letting people. It's quite a nice thing to do to let, to be vulnerable to someone and to show humility and say, I don't know everything you could help me. It's quite lovely. It's lovely to help people, isn't it? So if someone opens up to you and says it's quite a beautiful thing for someone to say to you. I need your help.

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Ella Davidson: Very few people would say no in that situation, because they want to give. I think humans want to give.

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Josephine McGrail: You're so right. And it also means in doing so. What you're actually saying in brackets is, I trust you and I love you. And also I really value you. And I need you in my life. We actually, we like to feel needed. We like to feel wanted, we like to feel loved, and if we are so self-sufficient that we don't ever ask any of our loved ones.

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Josephine McGrail: then not only, you know, maybe out of fear, or maybe don't want to be a burden, or whatever it is, but actually we are blocking ourselves from receiving help and love. But we are also blocking our loved ones from all of a sudden serving a purpose and having a role.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, so it's a two-way, gorgeous thing. And and I just loved your answers.

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Josephine McGrail: Ella, it's been an absolute joy.

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Ella Davidson: I really enjoyed it. And I know you know, I was terrified and like, Oh, I can't do a podcast.

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Ella Davidson: But I absolutely loved it so. Thank you. And I hope I hope somebody's found that interesting. And if not, I really loved it. Anyway, just chatting to you so.

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Josephine McGrail: My God, Ella, this was absolutely amazing, and I know for a fact that this might have been your first.st But it will not be your last. So.

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Ella Davidson: I know. I think I've got the bug.

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Ella Davidson: Thank you, Jason, really appreciate it.

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Josephine McGrail: Thank you so much, Ella, sending you so much love, and thank you to our listeners. Ella, I'll stay on the line for one second, and I'm just going to stop here.