#33 Recovery IS possible- Expert Zoe Clews on Hypnotherapy, PTSD Anxiety and Depression

Zoe Clews is a Clinical Hypnotherapist, Mental Health Campaigner, businesswoman & one of the most recommended and highly regarded Hypnotherapists working in the UK today, she was named Evening Standards top London Hypnotherapist in 2023.

As a Complex PTSD, Anxiety & Depression specialist she has over 22 years’ experience working with private clients to treat a wide range of conditions, and is the Founder & Director of Zoe Clews & Associates which is a 12 strong team of Hypnotherapists, Therapists & Coaches providing a one stop shop for  emotional, relational, sexual wellness, neurodivergent & psychological issues.     

As well as running a private practice in London's Marylebone for the last two decades, Zoe ran free mental health clinics throughout lockdown

Zoe is a passionate and outspoken advocate for better access to mental health services and greater government investment in social care.

She is regularly quoted in the press and has written and contributed to a wide range of articles on adult, teenage & children's mental health, relationship, emotional & sexual wellness for the BBC, Vogue, The Independent, Glamour, Marie Clair, Stylist, The Daily Mail, The Daily Express, The Evening Standard, Metro, The Sun, Womans Own, Daily Star & many others

She also collaborates with brands such as Specsavers & The Ministry of Sound.

https://zoeclews-hypnotherapy.co.uk/

https://www.instagram.com/zoeclewsandassociates/

https://www.facebook.com/zoeclewsandassociates/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoeclewsandassociates/

https://www.tiktok.com/@zca_therapy

For your opportunity to win a LIVE coaching call with Josephine submit your 5star reviews on Spotify and Apple Music and send screen shots to josephinemcgrail@icloud.com

Winners are announced on the 1st of every month

Transcript

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Josephine McGrail: So. Hello! Hello! Today I'm sitting down with the gorgeous Zoe clues, who is the founder and a hypnotherapist herself of her amazing company. Zoe clues and associates. I met Zoe a few months ago, where I was desperately searching high and low for a hypnotherapist, specifically one that not only was into hypnotherapy hypnotherapy, but someone that I just really energetically felt connected to.

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Josephine McGrail: So I kind of very randomly Googled. And immediately, Zoe, you popped up and.

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Zoe: Interesting.

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Josephine McGrail: Alright if I don't.

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Zoe: Google Search.

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Josephine McGrail: But also for all of those that knows me, I'm all about the feeling of a person. So before I even read any of your amazing reviews. By the way, Zoe, or anything about what you really did. I just sort of took a little moment tuned into you, and I was like

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Josephine McGrail: it's a yes.

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Josephine McGrail: and then, you know, needless to say that then I went ahead. Had the session experienced the most profound healing, and still has, you know, still impacted very much by that incredible session. And hence why, today it is with great pleasure, great honor, great joy, that I'm sitting down with the beautiful Zoe. So, Zoe, Zoe, thank you. Thank you. Welcome to the podcast.

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Zoe: And I'm so delighted. What lovely to be here! And I'm so delighted that you're still feeling the benefits. It's such a joy to work with you. I love working with people that are really open because it's so easy. It's so easy.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God, it's so good! It's so good to have you here, and especially sorry. It's just, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: I think, especially your energy, and how you've got the ability to sort of hold the duality of the world. So I feel both your power, your fire, your fierceness, and then I also have not only experience, but you know also can see how you work with the gentleness.

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Josephine McGrail: the openness, the intuitive, the feminine, you know. So to have to dance with those duality concepts and also in terms of you know you have. Not only do you practice hypnotherapy, but you've created a whole business around it right and a highly successful one. So to be able to work in the physical world right? With a concept that

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Josephine McGrail: to many people it's still kind of oh, we don't really get it right. So also, from that perspective of being a very highly successful female founder of something that to so many people is still a mystery. So I'm sitting here going.

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Josephine McGrail: So sorry. Share with us from the beginning. Let's go back in time. Where did you start out? What was your journey? So let's let's start at the beginning. Where were you born, and who were you born? Into what kind of system.

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Zoe: Okay. I was born into. I was like, I always say this. It was like 2 very long lines of lunatics, kind of came together dovetailed, you know. My mum and dad met. God bless them!

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Zoe: 2 really long lines of trauma actually, 2 really long lines of generational trauma. And I'm always really big on. You know, the concept of cycle breakers right? It's like one soul comes in or 2 or 3 in a family. You know that one, and you've almost got this big cleanup job to do and look, it can sound a bit self mythologizing as well. I'm always trying to be aware of that. But at the same time I do think cycle breakers exist, and I do think

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Zoe: you know, they come in. And it's like, you know, your job is to be psychologically awake. And not only, you know, work on clearing stuff that perhaps they couldn't. They didn't have the resources, the money, the awareness, I mean, who had therapy like back there back then, who had hypnotherapy? Hardly anyone. It just wasn't thinking so. We've got very poor. 2 really long lines of, you know, lots and lots and lots of trauma, and really kind of

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Zoe: God. My dad's side is all kind of like murderers and drug addicts, and God knows what you know, they're really. They're both from scouses. So really I'm a scouser. But I came. I grew up in Maidstone in Kent.

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Zoe: moved to London when I was 17, and Mum's side a lot of pain, a lot of difficulty there. And they met, and you know, in many ways it was just kind of like

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Zoe: they were both artists. It was this kind of super creative background, like, I wasn't allowed to really watch TV or or any of that stuff. It wasn't kind of like a junkie kind of childhood, even though we're really sort of poor, and we didn't have any money, and it was really really tough, and there's lots of trauma and difficulty. My dad was in that prison all the time, as well. You know. He'd been really traumatized everyone had been. Really, it was just an enormous amount of pain in the system that me and my sister were born into.

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Zoe: And obviously you've got no idea what's going on. You know. My supervisor says it's a bit like this, you know, when you grow up in that kind of complex trauma background. It's a bit like being a toddler dumped on a sort of 4 way kind of intersection and told

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Zoe: Hope, yeah, oncoming traffic. So I think of it. I think that's the best description I've ever read. So you just don't know it's just madness, right? So

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Zoe: there was some really beautiful things about it. There was a lot of love, but everyone was, you know.

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Zoe: really compromised. You know, they were acting out their own trauma. There's a lot of addiction, a lot of issues. You know, we weren't very safe, me and my sister in lots of ways. So there was loads and loads of complex trauma. So my background is complex trauma. That's what I specialize in. I've really lived it. I've kind of really gone through what works I've done, loads of things that don't work, spent thousands of pounds, if not tens of 1,000 pounds on things that don't work. And now I know what does. That's why I think that I'm

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Zoe: really fast when I'm working with people with complex trauma can identify things quickly and listen. Complex trauma isn't always fast to resolve it often isn't. It's a long old journey, but you know, when you work with somebody and they can identify it really quickly. And they've got that really deep lived, embodied experience, and they really get the pain and stuff like that. I think it's very reassuring people, because it's so confusing took me years to work out what's going on for me. So we grew up in this background, where it was lots of art, music, nature stuff like that. No money, lots of difficulty, lots of pain.

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Zoe: That was nearly taken to care about 3 times, you know, it was that kind of really crazy childhood.

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Zoe: I said. By the time I turned 14. I was pretty wild, you know, because I wanted to be like my dad. My dad was like the exciting one. He was the artist. He was very good looking. He was incredibly talented, and for all of his talent it was matched equally by his ability to self-destruct.

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Josephine McGrail: So.

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Zoe: You know my parents are both very talented people, but they came from working class Liverpool, you know. It's all like, don't get above your station. I often think that me and my sister she's

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Zoe: very talented artist and photographer and a therapist herself. We were the ones that sort of like. Okay, let's do something. With this we were able to have some more resource, you know. So I emerged from that pretty wild. I was 14, like, I sort of became a bit pretty, and then I suddenly had loads of attention for me that was like a flashlight. Suddenly I had my life went from feeling very dark and oppressive to suddenly I had some kind of currency.

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Zoe: So I was this kind of 14 year old, growing up in Maestone. I was always outgoing. And yeah, I was just wild and feral. And I got kicked out of school. Basically.

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Zoe: Yeah. So I was like, because the thing is I just you know I was just acting out all the time, and I just my mantra growing up, was, I'll do what I want. Thanks, which is kind of, and I kind of like I've got my old teenage diaries from that time, and I admire my spirit. I had no self-awareness whatsoever I mean who does at 16? Right? I don't want to meet a self aware. 16, actually some 16 year olds are self aware, totally unconscious, and having a great time, but I was always really surprised when there was consequences. Absolutely. I just thought that I was so clever, and that I knew it all.

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Zoe: so I was always getting in various forms of trouble. Then I went into the whole nineties, rave scene, and for me that was a great time to be alive, you know, and but again, I wasn't thinking I wasn't in touch with any of the trauma or anything like that. I was just out having an amazing time.

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Josephine McGrail: Kicked up.

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Zoe: School. What does a rave dancer, not a stripper, a rave.

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Josephine McGrail: Don't!

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Zoe: You know, this just had like. And then just, I thought drifted. I knew I wanted to be in London, that's all I really knew there's often been a few things in life that I've just known. One thing like I knew I wanted to be in London.

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Zoe: and then I just did lots of sort of temp jobs, really, where I wasn't really using my brain. And then I was. Then I started working in the music industry, which is really good fun. Towards 23 I got employed by Ministry of Sound, and a lot of times I just employed my personality because, you know, it wasn't very good, because I was always just out getting off my head, you know. I mean, I often didn't turn up.

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Zoe: you know, like I work. You know I have amazing interns that I work with now, and they're always like Super smart and together. And if that was not me, me in my twenties I was such a young 20 year old, you know I was always drunk and everything else. So and I meet these amazing young women now, and I'm like, do you really have shit together? But I just did.

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Zoe: Oh, you know, just about hold a job down. But so I was like.

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Zoe: I really need to do something. You know, I was working in the music industry different jobs having a great time sort of.

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Zoe: But you know I was battling with my self-esteem stuff like that. I didn't realize how complex Ptsd, any of those things, but I did know sort of 3 things. I knew that one. I wanted to work myself. 2. I wanted to be well known for what I did, and 3, I wanted to help people, that's all. I knew. I didn't know what that looked like or what shape that was going to take

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Zoe: and I was known as a real party girl, so no one would have thought. I remember saying to someone, Oh, you know, want to do this. No, to laugh what you you know. It was like a real. It was a real

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Zoe: rites of passage for me to move into being a hypnotherapist. So

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Zoe: again I went. I think I went traveling to Thailand and had a bit of a spiritual awakening there. And I came back and thought, Okay, I've got to do something different. So I was trying out lots of different courses like Reiki. And all these things, which were beautiful. But it wasn't. Nothing really gripped me by the throat. And then I did actually start off doing a past life. Course I didn't do it to be a past life aggression. I never had the I never thought I could do it. You know I didn't have the confidence. I didn't have.

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Zoe: My self-esteem was really low, for all my acting out and kind of

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Zoe: masking actually deep down. I didn't have any confidence

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Zoe: because I'd never been taught that right? So I didn't have parents who embodied that. So you know your worldview is, you know you. You haven't had that healthy mirroring that you need to build that sense of self. Obviously, you can build that sense of self as an adult, you know, which is obviously what I've had to do so.

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Zoe: I did the past life course, and I spent quite a long time training in that. And then I was like, Oh, Matt, do the hypnotherapy course, my tutor and no one really believed in me right, because it was this party girl. No one. Really.

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Zoe: I was always getting fired. I worked for this music industry Guy, who was a real Dick, and then he fired me, and he said, What do you want to do with your life, and I said, I want to be hypnotherapist. And again he laughed because I started doing this course. Anyway, I went to do my exams for the 1st part of the course, and I said my tutor said to me, how Dr. Keith Hearn actually wrote a blog about him. I'm very grateful to Dr. Keith hearn European College of Hypnotherapy

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Zoe: and he said to me, How are you, Zoe? And I said, Well, I'm not quite up to being fired, and he said.

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Zoe: Well, why don't you fast track the hypnotherapy course? So you do it in months rather than kind of like years or whatever. And I said, I don't have any money, so nobody then, either, because, you know, I was just. Of course, I was terrible with money as well. It's just another feature of my trauma. I just I'd get paid, and it would go within 3 days, you know, and then I'd be shocked

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Zoe: as if what else could happen, you know, and then I did the hypnotherapy course.

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Zoe: No, he said to me, you can fast track, you can do it. You can do the intensive, he said, but you have to promise me that you start immediately. You have to put an ad in the paper and advertise, and I just thought and he said, and I'll lend you the money to do it. Pay me back when you've got clients.

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Zoe: And I was like, Wow, I remember walking home from the course it was in Regents College, and I remember walking home thinking.

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Zoe: Oh, my God, it's a whole moment, I'm thinking. Oh, my God! Am I actually gonna do this. So I did do it.

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Zoe: And I was so scared of telling people that I was going to be a hypnotherapist. And I did tell people. I told 5 people, and 5 people laughed in my face.

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Zoe: I think someone else said to me, oh, I said, I want to be hit. In February someone said to me, What a dress like that's probably wearing some sort of see-through top at the time, you know.

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Zoe: Then, I basically

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Zoe: I did it, and I was so scared I finished. I got my past this, everything else, and he said to me, Dr. Keith Hearn said to me, You're a natural and nobody nobody said it was a good idea. Mum said it was weird. Dad said it was weird, like nobody thought I'd make any money from it, I think, even spoke to someone from registering body, said, Oh, you never make a living out of it, you know. Nobody encouraged me. Apart from Dr. Keith Hern, he said. Just do it now. I was so scared to put an advert in the paper, but I was more scared. It was like a double bind right? That was really helpful.

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Zoe: I was more scared to let him down because he believed me. I didn't want to renege on a promise, so I put an advert in the paper, and I got a client, and I couldn't believe it. I wouldn't use my real name. I use my middle name, which is Anis a double NIS. Zoe anis.

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Zoe: I got a client went really well. They booked again, and then it just flowed, and it was the 1st thing in my life apart from male attention that it actually worked. It was amazing. It was like, and I remember going to see like a psychic or something at the time, and they were like, Oh, have they just been ripped apart from you in spirit of being like you've just got to start now when it was this huge upgrade. Because I was. It was a huge identity crisis for me, and I was very ashamed because, you know, a big part of complex Ptsd is you carry a lot of shame, you know.

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Zoe: Metabolite again and again and again over the years, you know. So it's like an aqua, and you have to go in and drain it out and go in and drain out. It's always more layers like the endless onion. I call it so, but at that time I was in my twenties. I was this party girl, you know, but I did have. I knew I had a natural talent, but I felt like I

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Zoe: it just felt so natural to me.

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Josephine McGrail: You know. I think.

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Zoe: Actually, I'd also been acted as a therapist to my mum and dad as a kid. So when I went and did it, I was.

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Josephine McGrail: A 100%.

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Zoe: So it was so natural to me to be like, Oh, yeah, you know. So I was very comfortable with like, so

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Zoe: I know. Anyway, it flowed like nothing else, and nobody was more surprised than me. Everyone around me was astounded. I was like.

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Zoe: I won the lottery and it just, and I built it up from there, and obviously I work. I didn't work with huge things like complex trauma. I didn't know what complex trauma was. I worked with things like phobias, and I worked with things like anxieties like public speaking. So you know, I don't think anyone, really, unless you've had incredible training should start off with complex trauma, you know. But he did. The course was really good. It was, you know, the stuff that he taught me, the inner child work the cord cutting, you know. Obviously, I've made.

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Zoe: you know, I've done more and more training over the years, and it's become more sophisticated, and my knowledge has increased because

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Zoe: I work every single week with a kind of supervisor to like. And she there's nothing she doesn't know right? She's 77. She's like an encyclopedia of trauma tech. She knows everything. So I am working every single week to understand more and more about all the different things narcissism in Hr. Work. You know all of the you know. The negative interject all of the stuff. So

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Zoe: I've added and added, and added, and this is what I can work with. I love working with really difficult things like generational trauma. I like getting my hands dirty, complex trauma, you know all those stuff. And now, I do things like smoking stuff like that. But it's the stuff that is the really complex issues. That's what I really like working with. So I built it up over the years. And then at 1 point, I was like, Okay, I was booked out all the time.

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Zoe: And I thought, there's only so many people I can help just me. So that's when I added some associates. And then it was also it's lonely working on your own all the time.

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Josephine McGrail: 3%. And I'm just gonna pause you there for a second.

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Zoe: Yeah, I'm suggesting.

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Josephine McGrail: No, no, listen, no, it's just so you can catch your breath. And just so listeners can be like, wow! There's so much in there, I love it. So this is incredible. And 1st of all, I just want to really highlight again, because this is exactly what I was like receiving from you just when I got your name all those months ago.

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Josephine McGrail: You

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Josephine McGrail: just your genuineness. I don't know if you can even say that in English. But, like, you know, there is no bullshit about you, you know. You're just raw, powerful, so much empathy, so much heart. You know, these are qualities that have to be lived. Experience, it's, you know. So so I'm all about, of course. Go and study all the rest of it. But, like.

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Josephine McGrail: you know, these are qualities that we only get to when we've been to the bottom and back.

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Zoe: -

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Josephine McGrail: And no one can teach you that, and no one can, you know, share that with you. We all have to go on our own individual journeys. And so when I when I just like when I tuned into you like that, was so, what was coming through? And it is such a joy that I know that right now people from all around the world will be benefiting just from being introduced to you. So while you're taking a breather. I'm just sitting here going like to listeners out there. Notice the raw openness

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Josephine McGrail: that so we like what you are sharing with us, because so often, you know especially this thing, that oh, I love the subject of shame. You know this this big.

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Zoe: Wants to talk about shame, did it?

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Zoe: No, no.

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Zoe: people are ashamed of talking about shame, and it's really important. We talk about shame because it doesn't metabolise, because it's so hidden, because even with fear, even with paralysing fear, you can push through. But shame does something else. It kind of like it pins you to the ground. It's so. It's beyond paralyzing. Actually.

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Josephine McGrail: 100% right?

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Josephine McGrail: And it's and oh, and I'm actually, by the way, I just want to like, do a little side note I'm trying to remember. Are you, Scorpio? What's your star? Sign again?

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Zoe: I'm Sagittarius, but.

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Josephine McGrail: You are saggy like me.

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Zoe: Yeah, I've got. Oh, yeah. So we had this conversation. But I've got Scorpio stellium and a Sagittarius stellium.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, right.

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Zoe: Triple scorpios which I've got Mars in Scorpio, Mercury in Scorpio, which is

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Zoe: the hypnotist actually. And then I've got something else in Scorpio.

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Josephine McGrail: So Mercury for me is also in Scorpio, like Pluto, is in Scorpio.

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Zoe: I think that's my pretos and Scorpio. I think that's my pretos and scorpia. That's.

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Josephine McGrail: There we go, right? And then and then almost everything else for me is Sagittarius. So that's also the saturate we've both got. Yeah, yeah.

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Zoe: Yes.

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Josephine McGrail: Amazing. But but yeah, so just like going into that gorgeous, deep, juicy subject of the whole shame. And how you're just sharing all of this so openly and and as it should be like, I get so crazy passionate about this right? Because it's like.

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Zoe: You know. And hence that's why I made the whole podcast, because I wanted everyone out there to listen to stories from. And I don't care like, you know you don't. Not. Everyone needs to be a hypnotherapist or an energy healer like me or coach, whatever. But it's like. It's more that complete, honest sharing of like.

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Josephine McGrail: You know our greatest trauma, our greatest pain, that we all experience. No one goes through life without great pain, like.

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Zoe: Yeah, there is. Yeah, like this, you know, I remember reading a really good book road left travel. And it said, You know, there, there will be like something like suffering, you know it is they. We will have suffering and trying to avoid it. It's just magical thinking.

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Josephine McGrail: Of course, and also that thing of how you are sharing so openly of like

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Josephine McGrail: this is what this is. This was my starting point. This is what I came into, you know. You know that very vivid image of you.

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Zoe: Really low bar.

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Josephine McGrail: Well, it's just like, you know, you got plunked into like the cross way of, like, you know, crazy traffic from everywhere. And you're like now cope right like.

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Zoe: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Right like cope with that, and but sharing that that is the making of who you are today. Right? It had formed all of your choices, even though it wasn't fun. No, but like sharing fully, openly, there's no shame around. Oh, you know, this happened to me. It's like, yeah. It would have been great if it hadn't. But, on the other hand, you wouldn't be half the woman you are today, right? Yeah, and and like to to. Really, I just love the openness in that conversation. Because

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Josephine McGrail: my next podcast coming up is going to be called, we need to talk. And it's just giving that openness to like. There's so many things that we hide.

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Josephine McGrail: we hide in our relationship, we hide within ourselves. We're not even fully wanting to get real about it, honest about it within ourselves. So to sit here and witness you sharing all of these completely like open minded like like this is what happened, Josie. Blah blah like I am just loving it so much. And I'm like, yes, like, let's all do that out there, you know, like everyone experiences these things, and it can truly, without sounding super cliche. Your greatest pain can become your greatest purpose

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Josephine McGrail: if you are open to it. So.

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Zoe: Yeah. And I was thinking about something today. Funny enough, I was walking across the road, and I remember this kind of really good saying, it's Tj. Harveyck, or something like every master, was once a disaster.

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Josephine McGrail: No.

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Zoe: Thinking I was so the way, because the thing is one of the things the complex trauma did. It made me sort of like

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Zoe: unable to function like I could like. I said I was with money. I would just throw it away. Relationships I would just wouldn't understand. And I just I was just sort of. I had to kind of like.

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Zoe: I feel like a disability, really. Do you see what I mean? The level of trauma? So you know, I had to really relearn stuff that people learn. You know, I had to unlearn so many things, and I had to relearn other things thankfully. I'm a fast learner, I mean, thank goodness, you know.

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Zoe: But yeah, it's kind of. And it's really important to be able to talk about these things, because actually, you know, people talk about the attention economy. I think we're going to have the authenticity economy. Because that's what's interesting. You know, the people I like talking to the people tell me their real story. They don't want to hear some professional spiel. It's kind of like I can look on chat Gpt, for that you know it's just. It's not interesting, is it? It's like we want. I think authenticity is the direction of travel now.

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Zoe: thankfully. And then, of course, this is other lovely thing that I read once as well, and it was like, you know, if you're fully yourself, it gives other people permission to be themselves as well.

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Zoe: It's infectious, it's so infectious.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, a hundred percent right like it's so beautiful. And then it's and again like that was the whole reason for why I connected with you so much because I was like Oh, yay, there she is, right, you know, and and and for me it was a massive thing, because, like I've worked in this industry for so many years, and as much as I believe in lots of different tools. And this and that, I'm more than anything I believe in the connection of the energetic blueprint of people. So I.

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Zoe: Yes.

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Josephine McGrail: Antique sale, right.

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Zoe: I would so agree, because it's all about the. You know, people talk about this tool. And this strategy is the connection with somebody that heals, especially when there's been like, I don't know grievous harm. It's not that safe. It's always about the safety, because I've had arguments with hypnotherapists before about. They're like, Oh, I can cure and think in one session. I get really angry about this.

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Zoe: and I think rightly so, because what it does it gives the client the impression that if they go in and often they've had like a lifetime of complex trauma. Say, where are you going to heal that in one session. It's just ridiculous. But they hypnotherapist ego you know.

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Zoe: consent tattoos with people about this. And it's kind of like it's actually, you know.

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Zoe: it's about the, you know. That's about the hypnotherapist ego isn't all the therapy, whoever that is. It's kind of like. It's the connection over time. And actually, when you have been severely, chronically, acutely traumatized, you're not going to instantly always have. An it's going to take time.

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Zoe: because it's that repair. That's why something like psychotherapy, can be absolutely beautiful and amazing. I love psychotherapy as well, because a lot of hypnotherapists slag off psychotherapy. And I'm like so many amazing modalities because it's reparenting. And people some people need reparenting. They do, you know. Now, some people might say that that sounds kind of oh, you're an adult. You shouldn't need to be reparented, but they do. You know, I know that I did.

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Josephine McGrail: Of, of course. And also, I mean, you know, like we're talking about changing the pathways within the brain, and from there changing like even even just realizing that. Okay, just because it's in my mind. And it's been in my mind for long enough that now I have. Now, I've created like a physical emotion about it. And then I have it for long enough that now I believe it's true. Right? Yeah.

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Zoe: Yeah, exactly.

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Josephine McGrail: Wanting to change that like that takes time. And it also takes time to realize that again, just because it's a thought, an idea, an idea about who I am and who am I not? Doesn't make it real, and it definitely doesn't make it right for me to continue to be thinking that, and therefore having that feeling, and therefore creating that action in my life, continuing the same pattern. Right? So if you're wanting to change any of that, like all of that, takes time. But.

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Zoe: It does, and it's, you know, and the thing is as well. One thing I've really understood from my supervisor, like I said, she's just amazing. She's been my hero, really, but she she talks about the you know we talk about. I talked about, you know, being born into this kind of system, because the family system is its own organism in and of itself. Now all those voices you know that you've had in there all their trauma all their inherited beliefs. You know how some people inherit castles and like paintings and stuff is like. Oh, no! I inherited trauma.

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Zoe: gay trauma great.

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Zoe: I've turned it into a business. Yeah, okay, I've done that. Yeah. Just do a turn based medal into God. But

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Zoe: you know it's all of those voices. But that becomes the voice in your head. That's the negative. Intraject, the voice of the dysfunctional family. And people see a large part of my recovery was really like, you know, because when I before I understood any of this stuff, you just don't know right? I thought it was the voice of truth. I didn't realize it wasn't even my voice. I thought it was just like, Oh, that's who I am. And the day that I realized oh, hang on a minute.

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Zoe: Actually, it's talking bullshit. That was when I suddenly thought, Oh, I can do anything. That was a real moment for me. And I was like, right. I'm going to build an Empire.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God! I fucking love it so in my language! No, but this is so true. It's that moment where you're breaking free from yourself because you're realizing you're like, there's a me who's observing all the 500 voices. I am not just the voices that means I have a separate identity.

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Zoe: Yes, exactly.

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Josephine McGrail: And like you said dead means I can do fucking anything.

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Zoe: Yeah, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Anything is possible. Right?

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Josephine McGrail: Yes.

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Josephine McGrail: you're so right until you have that moment, and that moment comes to a different, you know, to all of us at different times, for different reasons, for different modalities, whatever life experiences whatever. But when you have that moment, and actually, if we dive in because I think it's really important, because you and I are so in this, and you and I can just have an in-depth conversation. But again, for people out there that are like, Okay, great story. And Josie, like, I don't study this kind of thing. I'm not really into psychology. What are you on about? Well, what I would like us all to think about is, you know, imagine when you are.

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Josephine McGrail: we've all been in love right? You know. It's 1 of the most beautiful feelings. It's what we all kind of long for, right like to prolong.

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Josephine McGrail: You did feeling of.

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Zoe: All right.

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Josephine McGrail: I am seen, and you are seen, and we are one, and you know all of that right. But you know, in the initial stages of being in love. The reason why it's such a drug is that you know you have this sense of almost like floating. This sense of like anything is possible.

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Zoe: Yeah, it's beautiful.

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Josephine McGrail: It's so beautiful, but actually, in that anything is possible. State. Are you a different you? No, you're not. All you're realizing is that there's a part of you that is allowing yourself to think a little bigger, to feel a little bigger, to embrace opportunity and possibility, because actually, when we fall in love. We fall in love with the potential right, not just of me and him or her, but also of what? What the future could be. We fall in love with this

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Josephine McGrail: potentiality? Right? It's our our brain, our focus goes from like, oh, these things are lacking life to all of a sudden. Oh, my God! There's so much opportunity out there right.

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Zoe: It's an expansion, isn't.

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Josephine McGrail: It's an expansion totally. It's an expansion. So just again for listeners that are maybe new to this world or this work, we've all been in love, and you've all had that experience of like

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Josephine McGrail: anything is possible. If this person is into me, or if that thing, or even a job like you land on some amazing job for a split second, you have a moment where the normal judge of the normal inner critic is like, basically it doesn't exist. And there's a brief moment where it's like, if I can be this, what else can I do right like you said. I want to build an empire. So I just want to like highlight that

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Josephine McGrail: whether or not you've ever studied psychology or anything like this, we have all experienced moments like that in our life. That means all of us who are listening right now is in this experience, listening back. Whatever have all experienced a state where there is a part of us that just deeply knows beyond the voices beyond what your mom said. Your dad said. Your mentor said. Your teacher said your whatever said

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Josephine McGrail: that told us there's a part of us that exists beyond all of those other voices, and this part of us that exists beyond that knows our own greatness and our own limitless potential.

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Zoe: I think that's the true self. So you know this, yeah, it's the true self. So I think you're kind of you're born, and you're like a blank slate hopefully depending on gone through in the womb, and maybe some other lives. Who knows but you? Here are this blank slate, and what you need really is one or 2 caregivers reflecting back to you, being curious about who you are. That's how you build your sense of self. They're there, but that so much that doesn't happen. I don't know, the parents addicted. They're not present. There's stuff their own generational trauma.

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Zoe: you know. They're mentally ill. They're physically ill, you know, you're putting an incupied. All sorts of things can happen. So many interruptions

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Zoe: to you. Getting that mirroring is actually kind of rare. Actually well, I see it as rare because I don't really see it much in my in my job, right? But I do meet people who do have it. And you know that's how you create. So when you don't have that, you kind of break away from yourself, you separate from the true self, and it creates the false self and the false self believes

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Zoe: I'm unworthy. I'm defective. I'm not good enough. I'm this. I'm too much. I'm not enough. You know the the role in the Dead Sea scrolls of all the things that you are too much of or not enough of in some ways that you're bad, defective, unworthy, unlovable.

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Zoe: And then from there you're like, Oh, I can't bear feeling this, and some people might go into collapse, and that they might go into like heroin addiction, because it's so painful. Some people might be like right. I need to escape from this through the many mediums that we can kind of temporarily escape plastic surgery, success, you know, love and relationships, you know, and all of these are not necessarily. They were, you know, good things, you know, same plastic surgery. But you know

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Zoe: the healthy kind of routes to you know, wanting to fall in love. Be successful, make money. They've all legitimate, right? But it's when you're using it as like an escape. We've all done it. When I've done it, like when I get this thing, then it will feel. Then I'll feel okay.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, right.

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Zoe: But then it just moves. Just the goalpost always moves. This is why I can work with people that billionaires like, I need to be trillionaire, you know. Then I'll feel all right, or if I'm this weight, then I'll be okay. And when I'm with my person, then I'll be all right. And it's like we're kind of kicking the can

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Zoe: down. We keep kicking the can down the road in terms of our self-love. But the truth is, really, it's not about adding more and more and more externals.

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Zoe: It's about combing through the trauma enough times.

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Josephine McGrail: So

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Josephine McGrail: false self collapses, and then you can start to return to your true self, which is, that's when you get those glimmers of like.

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Zoe: I can do anything because the interject isn't in charge. That voice isn't in charge. It's like your true self burst through, you know, and then, you know, because the conditioning is so heavy those moments can be far and few between, you know. But if you keep on working at over time.

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Zoe: and it can be you can embody your true self more and more. That's the goal, anyway.

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Josephine McGrail: A 100%. I loved it so much, you know. So personally. I remember when I was turning 30 I was in a little bookshop in Glastonbury, and I.

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Zoe: To Glastonbury. I got back yesterday night.

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Zoe: Oh, I love Glastonbury's. I

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Zoe: do you like the Abbey, the Abbey? I'm obsessed with the Abbey, the high altar at the Abbey.

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Josephine McGrail: It's so good, and you know what's really sweet. So is that I said that time when I was turning 30 at the time I was in what I thought was a beautiful relationship, and then the guy bless him! All of a sudden turned around, and all I had said was, when I turned 30. I don't want a big party. I want to go away. I want to go to Glastonbury. I'd never been to Glastonbury before, but I had this. I had this calling. I was like, I must go to Glastonbury, and I had not done any research. I never do it. I was just like

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Josephine McGrail: there's something for me in Glastonbury, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: So I was like, we need to do this thing. And then like, 2 days before my birthday he was like.

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Josephine McGrail: Do this. This is too intense, too much too soon. Essentially, I was too much. And and he was like, you know, maybe we could do like he was giving me crumbs. Maybe we can do like half a day in Margate, and then he would feel safe, and again.

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Zoe: Things like.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, oh, my God! Like in all my relationship, not not later years, but early years. I was always

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Josephine McGrail: thank you, sir.

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Josephine McGrail: Everyone, and I was like, I understand. And then I was like, Hang on, I don't understand. No, you know what this is. Okay, you know, if you can't give me this, then the one thing I can do is I can give to me what I need, and so

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Josephine McGrail: so me sort of being like claiming my power. It really was a huge deal. So I was like, I'm taking myself to Glastonbury, and I was there, and I had the most incredible experience. And but anyway, at some point, during that experience I was in this bookshop, and I came across Louis Hayes books, one of them not the big one of you can heal your life, but like a small one, which just has all of the affirmations.

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Zoe: Yes.

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Josephine McGrail: In there. Right? That's an information for whatever you are, your emotional ailment, or your mental ailment, or a physical thing. So maybe it's, you know again, a knee thing like I came to you with right, or whatever it is, your heart thing, or you have a skin thing, or whatever it is right, and and then I started to read it, and I was like to me. She made so much sense. So, Louis, hey? You know her whole thing is like

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Josephine McGrail: until you start to realize that there's a knowledge that exists beyond all of the 5,000 voices in your brain until you realize that you will just be repeating all of the voices that told you who you were and who you were not, and then she was like, but.

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Zoe: Oh, yeah, I love that. Who you were not.

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Josephine McGrail: Right. But there is another way. We can do this, and the brain learns by repetition. If you want to start feeling different, you need to start changing your thoughts. You just need to start changing what you constantly affirm to yourself. Right? So if you're constantly walking around, and I know that you know this. Sorry, but just for listeners out there, if you're constantly walking around and you're constantly noticing evidence of your lack of work worth everywhere, like. Oh, you know, that person didn't message me again. Essentially, that means I am not lovable, right.

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Zoe: So interesting. I always talk. Yeah, the negative evidence gatherer. I had to really change that. Actually, it was almost like this sort of it's almost like a lawyer going, going and getting negative receipts on.

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Josephine McGrail: Right.

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Zoe: More evidence of why you're not good enough.

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Josephine McGrail: So what I did. So I popped up the her book appeared in my life, and and this for me, was a system where I was like, because I'm such a disciplined person. And I was like.

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Josephine McGrail: I've been doing the wrong discipline. I've been practicing the negative evidence, and I was like I need to just change it like it was such a light bulb moment right.

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Zoe: Yeah, that's so beautiful.

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Josephine McGrail: Was also that thing that I was like, okay, so I'm 30 years old. For 30 years I've been playing the old record of all of the evidence of why I'm not worthy of Xyz right? And I was like, I just need to change it, and it won't be overnight. But I felt like I had a framework I could work by. So every day for a year, for 30 min every day I sat down, and I repeated a new affirmation every.

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Zoe: Single day, amazing.

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Josephine McGrail: And then I actually put it on Instagram. That's just because to keep myself accountable. And I also was like, well, if it can help me hopefully. It will help other people. And of course, again, nothing changes overnight. But I noticed that my 1st default started to shift a little bit and a little bit and a little bit like I would go down the street.

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Zoe: Cumulative. And this is the thing we need to realize. You know, when.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah.

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Zoe: Turn ourselves on and off. It's kind of like it's a gradient.

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Josephine McGrail: Exactly, but it is gradient over time. The only way is up over time, right? And then what I also started doing this is then going back many, many years, because now I'm nearly 40. But I created this. So you know how you see it. It's an you know. It was almost like getting an evidence receipt on the negativity. I started to write down an abundance evidence list. So for nearly 2 years now.

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Zoe: Which.

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Josephine McGrail: I've been like I was always. I was practicing gratitude for a long time, writing down little things that I felt grateful for, but then I started to go into things that I was really proud of.

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Josephine McGrail: And then I started writing that every day, because again in my head I was like. Well, everything works on repetition. I know one of my own strengths is discipline, so I just need to commit to a system that works for me, especially if it's my own system. I like that. So.

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Zoe: Yeah, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: You know. So it's just right. And especially I would even like so now I even write things down where I'm like I put it in the future, but present hint. So it will be like, Thank you so much, for you know. Thank you so much for looking after my beautiful flat, right, for instance, some of those. And then, like, I noticed, I was a bit worried about will it really be looked after? And then I come back a week later. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, that did come, you know, like.

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Josephine McGrail: yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: it's a way of kind of working with future self. But it's also a way of just constantly reprogramming my brain and never ever thinking, just because it's in my brain doesn't make it real. It doesn't mean it's going to happen. It doesn't mean that the statement that I notice is coming up in my head like, Oh, she did this, and that must mean that I am Xyz. It's like, no, no, no.

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Josephine McGrail: it's just a fault, and a fault can be changed. So.

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Zoe: Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. And all these things are great because it's retemplating, isn't it? It's retemplating. It's like we're doing to do list which creates the scarcity, because all these things I haven't done about all the things we have done and all the good things that did happen. So we can be like, oh, you know, it is that focus on the negative. And then look, it's it's beautiful when we can re-pattern and retemplate in these ways, because we have to, because it's not just a conditioning from depending on the severity of our backgrounds is also, you know, there's a lot of negativity out there

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Zoe: subject to so much noise. We have to like really work more than ever to have build our sort of health, wealth, community sovereignty, bubble, like.

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Josephine McGrail: A 100%. And I just want to shift the focus back to you again. Because I just think the fact that the background that you came from, and then, you know, you leave, you know, leaving school. And then this whole thing of like like you kept mentioning, which was just so heartbreaking, like everyone kind of laughing at you. You kept saying the words. No one took me serious, and I was like, and I really got that like no one really saw you. They saw an outside persona.

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Josephine McGrail: but they didn't really see you right. And then, finally, there's this person, this Dr. O'keefe. What was his name?

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Zoe: Able to keep her.

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Josephine McGrail: Navigor right, and he believed in you. And he spoke.

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Zoe: One person.

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Josephine McGrail: This is exactly it, and I think this is such a strong message like you just need that one person, but also at that point you were willing and ready to accept that maybe there was this. There was this part of you that you were willing to share with the world. You know what I mean like, you have to also reach that part within your own mind.

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Zoe: I mean I was so terrified I mean I was so, and I was terrified and ashamed. I was so terrified, ashamed. But I thought. Just do it, anyway. And it was amazing life lesson, because what I learned was that you don't have to believe in yourself to do something you just have to do it. And then the belief comes.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God! I love it! I love it!

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Zoe: It's working. It's working so because we always we can wait around. I know people do like kind. Of course they'll do. Course, after course I've got to never start. It's like, just start. And I'm so like that now, like, I can't bear sitting in meetings. I'm like, No, I just want to get on with it. I'm very experiential. I'm like I like to learn by doing, because it's like, well, then, I'll you know, like, just get on with it. I don't loads of theory and stuff like that. I'm terrible with things like instructions, and I often blowing things up because I'm like, Oh, I just forget myself.

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Josephine McGrail: But I just want to get it's a sagitarian thing, isn't it?

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Josephine McGrail: A 100% exact? Oh, my God, I'm so with you. And and I love this, that thing that you just said that it this whole thing of like, you know, you don't need to know it all, and you don't need to like even, you know, fully like, understand it all like you just need to start, and you don't need to like. Don't wait for motivation to kick in or don't wait for debt now I feel fully prepared moment, because you're never going to feel fully prepared.

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Zoe: Oh, no, that's the thing is Dr. Sheldon Copper. We're probably quoting the wrong name. But he they said, he doing as he or she, they said. They said, I've never set out for a journey for which I felt adequately prepared. We're never going to feel ready to do any of the things, and another one, and I always have quote because I use them to help me forwards a lot of the time.

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Zoe: It's Ralph Walder Emerson, pretentious quoting those people, but he said that I'm going to paraphrase this. This isn't the right thing, but I sort of changed it in my head. You get the energy to do the thing by doing the thing.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, for that!

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Zoe: There's many of the time I'm like, I don't want to do the thing, whatever the thing is, but then I do it, and I'm like, oh, the energy has come!

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God! I loved it! I loved it.

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Zoe: Okay.

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Josephine McGrail: You get to energy to do the thing when you do the thing.

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Zoe: Doing the thing. Yeah, doing it. And then you're like, Oh, okay, I can do the thing, because sometimes because we do meet so much resistance, he just day to day we get tired, we get fed up. We can't be bothered.

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Josephine McGrail: Of course, of course. And it's also like, actually, this is a really beautiful thing as well, because I so I just got back after teaching at the Royal Danish ballet, I was teaching them Yoga, and this is quite emphasis. I know it's exciting story, because so I started out in life at the Royal Danish Ballet for 7 years. That was part of my own part of the amazing journey about Josie, and part of the greatest shame about Josie. So this is part of my own story. So to be asked back 24 years later was like

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Josephine McGrail: was like a movie moment like, because I did not apply for it. I didn't know they had a thing like it just literally. So it came out of nowhere. And I I was like yes, like like it was this thing of like it, wasn't.

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Josephine McGrail: It wasn't the feeling of like being chosen, or somehow, like you know, that they were up here and I was there. It wasn't that because I've done so much to just actually find me, and I reframed it so much. But but when it came out of nowhere. What it did feel like was the

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Josephine McGrail: acknowledgement that I just felt. I felt really good in me. I felt like this feels so right. I'm going in.

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Zoe: Own terms. It's another.

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Josephine McGrail: Was my point. It was that old me.

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Zoe: Yeah. And it's retemplating that stuff so good for the inner kid.

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Josephine McGrail: It was my inner kid was like she was jumping, bouncing around. It was.

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Zoe: Going back on our terms with our thing, with engagement.

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Josephine McGrail: It. Was it because, like I left, I also left after, you know, having the last 2 years I was massively abused sadly. But anyway, and I left. I left. Thank you so much, but I left that abuse, and that's always been a big deal in my head that yes, I had all that trauma, but I choose to leave it. I didn't stay in it.

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Zoe: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: And then right look.

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Zoe: Because the thing is one. The thing is with those cycles as well, you know you

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Zoe: well, it's a boiling frog thing, you know you don't, because it's draining so much out of you that you don't even you can't start to not see it. And then you start to go into. They're very actually addictive, those cycles in a way, because you just where you just believe that it's your fault at some level. And neurochemically, you start to think this you lower and lower and lower to your like, and you're trying to get to a place. If I'm just do this XYZ. That they won't abuse me. It's like a cult or something.

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Josephine McGrail: A 100.

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Zoe: But yeah, actually, you just gotta

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Zoe: cut your losses, which is really painful and takes a lot of courage.

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Josephine McGrail: A 100%. And it was this thing like I realized, because lately I had to. I took on a book, a publicist, and I started writing all these articles, and and a lot of them asked me to write about my experience with my upbringing. Right, you know, and that's a huge part of it. And as I was writing, I was like, Yeah, yeah, that's in a good spot. And then, as I was writing, it just does the whole, like whole other layer of emotion that came out from writing.

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Zoe: Writing. Yeah, it's so different. It's amazing.

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Josephine McGrail: Right.

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Zoe: Writing. You remember so much stuff like when we start writing things down. We're like, Oh, my God! I didn't know I felt like this like writing is so powerful I didn't realize I still felt like this.

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Josephine McGrail: Right? Exactly. That's it. And it's like adult. Josie may not have felt like that. But Josie, who was like 12 and 15, absolutely felt like that right? And so there was so much. But but anyway, I popped back in, reappeared as the Josie I am now, and it felt so good to just go back in. But

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Josephine McGrail: being taller on all levels, and feeling really grounded and good in me, and and especially that I hadn't even applied for this. I had not asked for this. It was them reaching out to me and going. We've noticed you in the shadows. This is looking good. We would like we would like a little bit of you. Come on, come on in with the uns that you've created, that you've become, you know.

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Zoe: It's true.

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Josephine McGrail: It's just really gorgeous and beautiful experience. But anyway, with the kids there, the young kids from all around the world, I had 38 students between ages of 13 to 17. My key message was this whole thing of like.

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Josephine McGrail: you know.

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Josephine McGrail: keep dreaming, and it's not going to be easy. But you know, like, but it is so. It is so courageous, it's so courageous to keep following your dream, and whether that dream changes shape because it will one day. It's ballet one day. It's another thing. It doesn't matter, but be courageous and keep showing up and keep showing up. And that's dating to your thing relating to your thing like, keep showing up because you don't have to feel amazing in order to do something amazing.

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Zoe: No, you actually can feel like you can feel terrible.

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Josephine McGrail: That was my right.

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Zoe: Do the thing anyway, like I read this thing other thing once

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Zoe: with fears you don't have to face, you know, just you don't do it well, just face them, you know. Face them just like, do it. I've done things, and I'm like, I remember the 1st time I did. I remember being asked to do. I had a terrible fear of public speaking for years like again the shame came into that. I was like, I think shame is really linked to public speaking. Obviously, you've been seen, and you think.

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Zoe: thinking I'm awful, etc. And I'd never done. This is so typical of me, so vegetarian. They were like someone. I've never done it. Any public speaking couldn't even stand up at a breakfast meeting without my heart pounding at my chest to say my name. Say, Hi! I'm Zoe. So then someone asked me to do a talk, because I was always really great speaking one to one right? So then people think, Oh, she's quite eloquent. Let's get to do a talk. So they were like, Do this talk. And I decided I don't know what I was thinking, I just threw myself in deep. And I was like, Yeah, I'll talk to like 100 people.

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Zoe: And I. My topic I chose was dark the dark night of the soul. I've never done any public speaking, anyway.

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Zoe: I was so anxious that I was so anxious that I couldn't actually prepare, so I couldn't. Even so I just thought, I'm just gonna trust myself. But really it was, I was just doing magical thinking, thinking. Somehow, it's just going to be magically okay. I used to do it all the time. Magical thinking was such a defense for me. It's taken me years out of it right? Saying that I still believe in magic. But there's a difference between magical thinking and magic, right? It's a bit of a nuanced part piece. But but anyway. But I was doing magical thinking of like, oh, it's fine! I'll just do this, and you know, be fine fine.

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Josephine McGrail: And.

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Zoe: The talk was meant to be 45 min.

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Zoe: I spoke so quickly

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Zoe: that it lasted 7 min, and several people asked me if I was on drugs because I was paced up and down. I was so adrenalized. So. But the thing is, and it was awful, and it was being filmed. Someone said, Would you want to see it? And I was like, I really don't you know, I really really don't. It didn't make any sense, and I knew it didn't, and the whole thing was a disaster.

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Zoe: But you know what I did it. Do you see what I mean? I don't recommend it for anybody at all, because it was so bad. But

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Zoe: it's kind of like you do these things, and now I can. I can do. I can speak really easily. I feel so comfortable. I would enjoy doing it now.

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Zoe: and do like live news, interviews and stuff, and it's fine. I think my feet, but you know I always but I was so ashamed. And again, it's another thing. You can metabolize it, and you don't have to do it. Well, I mean I would. I don't recommend anyone does anything like that. I think it's better to ease yourself in. That's so. Me to kind of throw myself into something. I try and be much more compassionate with myself now, and just think, that's actually going to be too much. I wasn't respecting my own nervous system because you've got to face fears.

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Zoe: But you've got to do this sort of middle ground, you know. It sounds so boring, but health is in the middle ground right? Because you'd like you don't avoid everything because anxiety loves avoidance, you know.

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Zoe: but also continually. I was always. I always had this one of my sometimes trauma can in a way give you sort of superpowers. It sounds like a really bizarre thing to say, but trauma does give you superpowers, or I was able to just push myself really hard through things.

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Zoe: and I would always I used to call it the forcing energy. So I'd force myself to do stuff, and I try and be much more balanced. Now, you know I try and get things done. I encourage myself, and, like, Come on, can do this. Remember why you're doing it. Get the energy to do the thing by doing the thing. But I would just my way of growing for a while was just to throw myself into really big situations, and it was like someone pointed out to me. So we don't have to do it in such a dramatic way. And I was like, Oh, yeah.

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Zoe: and considered that, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: Right, and I loved it.

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Josephine McGrail: No, I loved it so much, and and that is so true. And you know, and again, like this is why I mean, that's why I love talking to you. But it's also that's why I always in all my podcasts, whoever it is that we, you know I'm sitting down with is always that thing of like, let's go back. And let's actually let's really tune into the beginning, because the beginning is always in the background. Right?

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Like you, you were plunked in, like you said into that big traffic jam right? And not even a traffic jam, because then there's like no movement. You were in like high traffic on a fucking motorway, right? A highway like lines, you know, above you, below you, inside, all around you right. So like, like your nervous system is used to this like high anxiety all the time, and that is such an adrenaline right like it's so addictive, because it's that thing of like what your nervous system recognizes as being safe.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, it's highly unsafe. So you were used to complete chaos in many ways. Right?

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Zoe: And also, you know, it's so funny because I kind of specialize in working with adult children. Alcoholics, dysfunctional families. Right? That's the umbrella term 12 step recovery umbrella term, for, like, you know, people with complex Ptsd trauma and a lot of them. If they if they become like the fight flight type. They're like, you know. They'll be like an A. And E. Doctrine to chill out weekends. They run an iron man, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, exactly.

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Zoe: And I'm like there to like, bring them down into feet. And I was like that. I could just go go say insane work, ethic and just work work work because you're kind of out of touch with yourself, really. And I've had to relearn to be more balanced because I would just be so

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Zoe: tenacious and dogged, you know, which was a gift that I had from my background. I'm glad I had that, because otherwise I probably wouldn't have made it. Do you know what I mean? But you know then I had to learn to tweak that because you've got to love the defenses because they kept us alive because survived, but they they can keep you like I would be fighting, and I'd be like, why am I?

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Zoe: I'm just going to the Post Office. Why am I.

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Josephine McGrail: Why am I?

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Zoe: Being so intense. Do you know what I mean?

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, he's so intense.

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Zoe: And I was like, what if you're not on fire?

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Josephine McGrail: Okay, like, so, okay, so like, listen, I'm sitting here. And this is like, this is ringing. So true for me, I'm like, because, like in my inner world. I'm literally like a gladiator woman. I'm always like, you know. And I've also said, you like right? It's like, I'm like, Oh, yeah, I am exactly like.

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Zoe: Sainsbury's.

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Josephine McGrail: Totally. And it's like in in a way, it's so good for so many things in life. And then.

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Zoe: You get you get, you get shit done.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God! You get so much shit done right! But then, on the flip side of that, it also means that then, when you all of a sudden. You've you've decided to take a day off all of a sudden. You perhaps you meet a partner like mine who's like super chilled. My! My whole world is like, hang on! What's going on here

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Josephine McGrail: this is. This is oddly chilled like this feels very unnerving, and it also to me like that's like a real challenge, and like an exciting thing to me to start to learn to appreciate that stillness. What I normally I see that is lack of momentum, lack of movement, lack of.

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Zoe: Action, and all.

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Josephine McGrail: Also means highly unsafe, you know. Lots of people would call that boring. They're like, oh, you know. Oh, like that's so quiet! It must be so boring. And it's like, No, actually, this is just really peaceful, and how nice for my body, but because my body is still adjusting to it. And it's used to being like.

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Zoe: Yeah, totally like it. Back cleaning. Right? Let's do this. Let's up there. I've trained myself. My problem is not motivation. My problem is has been relaxing, you know I can do it most so much better at it. But I'll be like right. I either want to have loads of fun. Where's the doping? I want to work really hard to create something. And then, you know, you have the day off. And you're like, maybe you should start this new thing today. So yeah, I've had to allow myself. It's kind of like, I said to myself. It's I remember

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Zoe: my supervisor about this. And she was like Zoe. It's not. The rest is like. Oh, it's a nice idea, she went. It's vital.

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Josephine McGrail: Necessity.

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Zoe: Oh, true, yes, and it's like, it's a basic need. It's not like, well, that sounds nice.

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Josephine McGrail: You know.

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Zoe: You know. So yeah, it's interesting the way we're wired. And then you have, because it's such a strength. But then, of course, you then it's coming down from. And I work with so many people that are like that. They're the clients I get more than anything. Actually, you know that. Of course they come from. You know, their nervous systems have been cattle prodded into like on, and they're still in on and

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Zoe: and they don't. They're getting. And then you start to feel exhausted with being on. And also you can't stay in on at some point. Your nervous system goes right. I'm going to drop you into freeze response. Just so you can have a break, and then you like.

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Zoe: Oh, I feel terrible. I don't know why, you know, and I had that I was going to a bit of collapse. You know I never stayed there, and I do think you know, some people who've had such severe trauma. Actually, you know, I think we've all. We've all gotten a little nervous system pro preference.

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Josephine McGrail: If you like.

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Zoe: More tendency to go towards, not preference, but like with a fight. You know, I've got friends who get really angry flight, which is what I was, which is kind of running and being quite perfectionist. And then there's freeze. Obviously, you know, I know people know these things, but it's always good to remind. So it's like a traffic light system where it's like

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Zoe: numbing out. Can't get out of bed. No motivation bored like Lo-fi kind of addiction like overeating stuff like that. And then there's fawn. That's another thing I should do, like the people, pleasing, powerless, no boundaries kind of things, and we can all have a tendency to go to one, especially when they're under pressure. And learning to come out of those and realizing what kind of type you can be is so vital for your recovery. I think.

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Josephine McGrail: A 100%. And I just want to sort of like, tap something into that conversation which is this whole thing of like

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Josephine McGrail: you know how you mentioned, you know. Sometimes, you know. So you're working with clients working with people also, like both you and me. Did I like, you know with our default is so to be on right, to be on to the point until the body goes off.

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Zoe: You're like.

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Josephine McGrail: Think. But this is a really important notion to understand that

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Josephine McGrail: the body is, you know, out of all the systems that we've created as human beings. We have yet to create a system, to understand the system that is as sophisticated as our own body. So our own body is self soothing. It is self-healing, it is self regulating. So like you just sit so those of you outdated are like, always on on. I'm sure you have all experienced, myself included, where you all of a sudden. It's not your choice. And all of a sudden you're out

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Josephine McGrail: because your body will always, whether we call it burnout, whether you have like illness, whether you have an injury, whatever it is, something will happen.

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Zoe: Depression, even depression.

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Josephine McGrail: Something will happen where it's like time to come, and the body or life, whatever you want to call it. It's not doing it to punish us, it's actually doing it to regulate us. And I think this is this is just wisdom of the body that is just so good to get in tune with. It's that thing of like your body, actually unlike your mind, it has so many, you know. The brain always wants to keep us safe 1st and foremost, right. But what is what does safe look like? What does it feel like? Blah? Blah!

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Josephine McGrail: The body is so on your side the body doesn't have a hidden agenda. Your body is not out to like. Get you in any way, shape or form. Your body is like, you know you wake up. You're a bit tired. Your body will just power through. Then you wake up. You're a bit tired now you have a cold. The body will power through, you know, like the body is there, just constantly, quietly talking to you in the background until it has to scream and shout for you.

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Zoe: This is it? And it does, and they do. They do start screaming. And it's kind of like, you know, and I've known when I've been overriding, and also the thing is as well when you go through trauma stuff like that, and well, so many layers to this. But like you're you're disconnected from your body, you know, because you don't. You're not connected in that way. So coming back to your body is so vital, it's so beautiful. All the amazing work that you do in the various

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Zoe: iterations of the work that you do, which is so great. Multidiscipline is all about, you know, obviously connecting with that innate wisdom that the body has. And I remember someone saying, years ago, before I really understood anything.

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Zoe: So they said, the body's got its own intelligence. Of course it has. You know, my friend really cut her hand the other day she was like, wow! Isn't the body amazing how it just starts to like it just knows what to do. And it is just. I've only just. I know this is really obvious thing to say, but it's like it is so fascinating what the body will do. And also we're living in this time. And as we've got more metabolic disease than ever.

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Zoe: you know, tech try all these things that drag us away from our body, you know, actually like the horrors of the modern world. I'm gonna say, the horrors, you know there's horrors of the modern world. It's kind of like not saying some of these things aren't usable like Tech and AI and all these things that I use.

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Zoe: but we have to keep in balance because it will, you know, I mean, look, everything's a double-edged sword, right? You know, everyone's got this incredible information about trauma and healing and recovery, and some of it's more accurate than others that wasn't available before in the nineties. No one knew anything in the nineties. No one went to the gym. Well, none of my friends did. No one even drank water. I just went.

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Zoe: It was just like nobody went to the gym. If only went to the gym. It was like really square. We were like, no, we go raving, so everything has changed so much, and we're living in such a fast moving ocean, and we're becoming. We are becoming more disconnected from our bodies. But then, the same time, there's another whole movement, isn't it with biohacking and everything else. So then there's a whole movement where people

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Zoe: yeah, there's a kind of resurgence against that where people are really really looking at.

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Zoe: No one talked about gut health in the nineties, did they? I mean.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God! No!

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Zoe: I don't even think about it like that.

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Josephine McGrail: And any and even the word energy. Right? You know, that's yes.

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Josephine McGrail: Within the last 10 years, you know, like, and and even, you know something being positive or negative. And you know, like, even like we should change how we think, you know, like all thoughts, create our reality that used to be just belong to the cult, the cultism over here, right? It wasn't.

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Zoe: Yeah, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Of everyday kind of like. Now it's kind of a buzzword, of course, you know. So even mental health, like organizations, all the companies I go into, and I'm sure you go into as well. They say you know they didn't have a Hr person really like, you know, it was kind of in a dusty office somewhere like it wasn't like

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Josephine McGrail: people in. We have mental health Awareness week. You know, we have Adhd Week. We have whatever like this is. This is so much modern day society.

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Zoe: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: But again I want to pivot back to you. So sorry! Where are you at in your life at this moment? So how long has your? How long has has your business been going for, and are you still mainly thinking to stay here in London? Are you all around like? Where are you at personally for you.

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Zoe: Yeah, it's interesting. It's an interesting time. Actually. So, yeah, I mean, look, I've got this beautiful team in the lovely office here. It's a joy, you know. The team feels like a family that I've kind of created. It's really kind of harmonious and cool and fun, and they're all beautiful, and a lot of them are wounded healers like the same as me, you know, which could be that real embodied thing. So you know.

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Zoe: in it's great. So I'm it's a joy, the business. I'd like to step back a bit from seeing clients just because I've been doing so long. I would like to spend more time working on the business. I love the business.

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Zoe: I'm actually launching a podcast. And working with a friend of mine.

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Josephine McGrail: How to recover.

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Zoe: Yeah. So we're just starting to record some stuff now. So that's part of it. Really want to write a book. And, funnily enough, I have been thinking, do I want to stay in the Uk. Because it's like that's been coming up for me recently?

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Josephine McGrail: I know

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Josephine McGrail: I had this strong feeling I was like, I'm not sure you want to stay in the Uk. And and then and then I was sitting here, and I was kind of thinking. Is that too private? A Christian? And then I was like.

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Josephine McGrail: you can just say, No, you don't want to talk about it. Okay? Tell, yeah. Tell, yeah.

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Zoe: Yeah, it only came in recently. And it's so funny my Shaman friends are here. You're buying a property abroad. How's that going to work. But you know how these things work like if someone said to me like 6 months before, Oh, you're going to be hypnotherapist when I became I was like, no, you know you didn't know these things, so I know I love. I live in Hamilton. I'm really happy. I love here. Everything's beautiful. The team are beautiful. I want the team to be as busy as possible, working really, really hard on lots of different things get involved. So it's all good. I've been in London since I was 17. I moved here when I was 17,

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Zoe: so I've been here forever.

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Josephine McGrail: So you know, I moved here when I was 16. So we also have that in common. So.

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Zoe: I moved I mean.

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Josephine McGrail: Straight from from Copenhagen, Denmark, where I was born and raised. I moved out of my childhood home when I was 16, not to another house around the corner, but to another country, to London.

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Zoe: Wow! I always really admire people that do that because it's such a huge thing to move to another country. I'm always like.

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Zoe: I'm also impressed when people can drive in other countries as well, probably because I've never bothered learning to drive, because.

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Josephine McGrail: Me, neither.

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Zoe: I'm so glad you're the only other person I know that doesn't drive in the world, and I'm always like Oh, I feel really rubbish to not be able to drive, but if I lived, if I didn't live in London I would drive. But I just think that I may as well for me driving in London while we've got great public transport right.

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Josephine McGrail: No, I love the tube. I know it's like dirty and stuff like I don't care.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God! I love it! And I'm a great passenger. Oh.

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Zoe: Yeah, exactly so. But I just think if I got kind of set fire to a load of money like the Klf did, and you know, set fire, because that's you can't park, you know. There's loads of traffic wards everywhere like you can't get anywhere. It's totally congested. There's all different charges like, why would I drive so? Yeah. But it's so funny. Because I have been thinking, would I go to another country? I'm thinking about where that would be so. I that just come into my consciousness the last few weeks. So look at how astute you are. You picked up on that already.

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Josephine McGrail: Wow, this is.

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Zoe: I don't know, that's all I know, but these things always start is from the tiny little germinations of like. It wouldn't be for anything for a year or anything like that. And also, you know, I always want to keep the business right, because it's great. But I would like a little bit more freedom. I love working with clients. I love the business, but I'm so in it all the time and in it and on it. And you know, sales, calls, clients, team everything. It takes up a lot which is great because I it's my like sacred, my holy child, right.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, I am.

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Zoe: Well, but it's I do think. Yeah, maybe some little bit more wriggle room, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, of course, and also like like Zoe, like, I love relating everything to nature. So it's like where we live. We have. We're super blessed. We have a huge roof terrace, and we have plants everywhere inside, outside, all around. I told my partner, when we're moving in together. I was like, I have 2 things. I have a huge amount of plants and a huge amount of books. So as long as you're cool with that we're good. But anyway, it's just that thing. Of all the plants like, you know, none of my plants. I say this on every podcast so sorry listeners, but none of my none of my plants

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Josephine McGrail: like, you know. I buy them. I bring them home. I give them a house. None of them go, hey, Josie? And just so, you know, I would quite like to get a little bit taller than you know. 5 cm. Would that be okay with you? Oh, what? The fuck right. Their roots just stick out. They break through, you know, like the whole purpose of a plant is to outgrow its own limits.

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Zoe: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Same thing as a human being. Right?

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Josephine McGrail: Yes.

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Josephine McGrail: same thing with us. The purpose of us is to continue to excel beyond our own boundaries, our own limiting belief systems. Right? So you going? I think I might want something else like.

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Zoe: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: That makes sense, you know, like, it's not that what you're doing like. It's absolutely amazing but that you personally may want to live somewhere else or like you like you said, maybe take a step back and do something else is because there's a new you that's coming through.

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Zoe: Yes.

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Josephine McGrail: That's evidence of your evolution. Not anything else. Right?

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, it's like, yeah, exactly. It's not. It's not like, instead of it's as well as

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Josephine McGrail: that's exactly it's an add on like my plant doesn't get up and then go down like

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Josephine McGrail: the roots go deeper and deeper, and the top of my plant gets taller and taller, so it's above as below, like they're both. It's an add-on. It's an extension. It's an expansion.

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Zoe: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: I am. Yeah. Anyway, let's go into the one question I always ask people. So in the incredible experience, the lived embodied experience, I call it embodied. AI. By the way, I really like that word. So in your embodied AI with the wisdom that you sit in today, gorgeous sorry if you had just one or 2 messages for humanity so kind of like. Really your personal soul messages everything. You've been through

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Josephine McGrail: one or 2 sort of like mantras, word of wisdom, messages that you would like to pass on to humanity.

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Zoe: Well, 1st of all, I always want to talk about recovery right? That is, that is so possible that we think you know like, no matter how broken we've been, no matter what's happened to us, the level of

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Zoe: horror and

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Zoe: terror and shaming, and you know, atrocity, we could have been subject to, you know, I do think it is possible, you know, I think it's really important for us to believe that we can recover.

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Zoe: And I always just. It's just really simple. I want to say recovery is possible. I'm not saying it's easy, because it isn't. It wasn't easy for me isn't easy for anyone who's gone through a huge, huge amount, and I still work on it. No recovery is possible, and we really need to be able to hold on to that, and there are so many people

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Zoe: who recover from what would be deemed as the unrecoverable, and they're out there, and you can read their stories, and you can use them for inspiration and hope. And there's also, you know, things people forget, you know, because everyone thinks everyone costs everything all the time. There is 12 step recovery that is free, that is online for everyone, for everything. Debt is anonymous. Gamblers, anonymous

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Zoe: sex addicts anonymous sex and love addicts anonymous alcoholics, anonymous gamblers, even hoarders anonymous. So whatever you're struggling with, you know, and I know, child, recovery isn't for everyone there is that you know. You can always because people think I can't afford therapy, and a lot of people can't I get it? I respect it especially in these times. But there are free, amazing resources out there. So

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Zoe: and you're worth it. And the other thing I want to talk about is that voice in the head? The negative interject. Now something that really changed my life was understanding that when you hear in your head pay a bit of attention to it, because it's so important. Now, not you not paying attention, Josie? But when you hear the voice in the head that goes you and it says it in a negative way, oh, yeah, that's not going to work out for you.

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Zoe: Oh, you should have gone to the gym today. You're going to put on loads of weight, or you're a loser. Sometimes it's abusive, sometimes it just undermining. But whenever you hear the voice in your head that says you in a negative way, that's the negative. Interject. Now the negative intraject isn't your voice. It's the voice from the dysfunctional family system.

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Zoe: The dysfunctional family system is like a mobile or an organism. It doesn't want you to leave it, because otherwise it collapses. So when you hear that voice, it's not even yours. Yeah, it's in your head, because, of course, you absorbed it growing up. But it's not you.

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Josephine McGrail: So everything it says is a lie, but it uses half truths to kind of torture you so.

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Zoe: One of the biggest pieces of recovery for me, and I'm not saying I don't have to work on it because I do, because some days are easier than others, right? But is not listening to that voice and just going. Yeah, thank you for sharing.

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Zoe: not today. So it's not true. So that's not you. That's not who you are. It's the voice of

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Zoe: fear, not the voice of truth, and it's not even yours. It's like

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Zoe: that mad, uncle you had, or whatever, who's probably an alcoholic, etcetera.

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Josephine McGrail: Right.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God! I love this.

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Zoe: Quite a long.

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Josephine McGrail: No, it's places, it's

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Josephine McGrail: best ones ever. And I really love this like this, recovery is possible, and I also love what you said. Which is, it is an ongoing journey, and it is, and you know, and all healing is as you're not right, so it's like it is never an ABC. It's never like, Oh, you start here, and then we do 10 sessions, and then you are good like it will.

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Zoe: Sell it as that, though that really annoys me.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, my God! I'm I'm excited!

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Zoe: It's like, it's just such. Bs.

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Josephine McGrail: Right exactly, but also so to just. And I think, like with anything like you said, whatever it is that you're struggling with whatever it is, you know. Should I stay in this relationship, should I not? How do I feel about myself? What should I do? My direction in life? Whatever it, is it just? You know it can be anything right. And to do that thing recovery is possible, because by saying that 1st of all, you're saying it's an ongoing journey, but you're also saying I am possible.

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Josephine McGrail: Yes, you're worth it.

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Josephine McGrail: Pass

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Josephine McGrail: worth fighting for, like I. So in one of my books I wrote this thing. So my books always kind of happens with like, I just get these kind of like messages I call them. I don't walk.

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Zoe: I don't know.

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Josephine McGrail: Exactly downloads. I don't walk around going today is the day right? Like I absolutely. I absolutely do not sit down and think. Now I've already.

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Zoe: Like, no, it just can't.

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Zoe: Tired. Right? Yeah, I'm the same.

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Josephine McGrail: It kind of comes at weird and wonderful times. And one of them that came through to me was like, oh, actually quite a juicy one, quite a juicy one came through when I was coming home from Copenhagen the other day, and it was just this voice that said it was really gorgeous, because obviously going back to Copenhagen, being in that place where so much beauty but also so much trauma took place. All of a sudden I was on my way home, and my little sister also shared some stories about my dad, which was also another traumatic experience for me.

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Josephine McGrail: and you know I was obviously sort of thinking I was obviously digesting it. I thought I was just thinking about going to the flight, but my whole body was digesting all this stuff. And then all of a sudden this voice came in, and it was really clear.

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Zoe: Hi.

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Josephine McGrail: Really compassionate, and it was addled me and addled me.

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Zoe: Oh, adult!

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, add on me is so good! Oh, add on me is like so fucking awesome, I'm like. Add on me, add on me! Came through, and she was like.

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Josephine McGrail: it will never happen again. And I was like.

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Zoe: What are we?

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Josephine McGrail: You know, that's it. So it was like, Yeah.

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Zoe: It's true. Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: It like. Yes, other things will happen. But but those specific, the moments where I was a child and I was helpless, and all of that that won't ever happen again, so I don't need to relive it and rethink about it like.

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Josephine McGrail: So that was one thing. And then another thing was just like this thing of like

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Josephine McGrail: I gave up on this was came back like a few years ago. I had this thing of like.

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Josephine McGrail: because again I let go of a lot of things. I left the world Danish ballet, even though it's my big love. I stopped seeing my dad when I was 15. I gave up on so much, you know, move country like I did so much to get away from the trauma and part of me. Part of my brain was also always going like it is with all addicts in any kind of shape or form, even if you're like I was addicted to dance, we can say right.

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Josephine McGrail: you know part of you will always walk around and go. Was I not strong enough? Was it somehow my fault? Was I not resilient.

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Josephine McGrail: There's should I have been less sensitive if I had just been tougher and worked harder right.

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Josephine McGrail: And then, all of a sudden this voice came in. This is yeah, about 2 years ago, and it was this voice, and it was like I gave up on being abused, but I never gave up on me.

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Zoe: Oh, that's so beautiful!

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Josephine McGrail: And I was like Oh.

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Zoe: This is like this thing of.

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Josephine McGrail: Know how you're talking about like recovery is possible. You know.

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Josephine McGrail: We can stop any day. We can walk away from abuse, and we can choose us, we can choose to not give up on ourselves, and you.

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Zoe: Yeah. Let me know. Okay.

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Josephine McGrail: Thing.

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Zoe: And if we're struggling to walk away from abuse, we can get support, or I know I had to. In different relationships. I had to get to shore myself up, because sometimes we're so being so trained into thinking that that's what we deserve all that's like. Well, because, you know, our nervous system to go towards what's familiar, even if it's terrible. You know we go towards home, don't we? Then home was often, like, you know, a shit show

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Zoe: that with a wig on. And then until we learn. And we're like, Oh, yeah, yeah, no, yeah. Been down that road. I'm not doing that. It's a cul-de-sac.

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Josephine McGrail: 100%. And and then, just before we finish off here today. So because I could talk to you all day all day, just that thing like you said

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Josephine McGrail: recovery is possible, and you are possible, and life is an ongoing journey. We are not here to know it all. Have it all fix it all, becoming it all. We are always learning. I am always learning, so is always learning listeners out there. You're always learning so so like. Don't ever feel like Oh, but you know, like I stopped today, and then tomorrow I'll start. Or today I left the relationship, and then tomorrow I went back, and now I failed. No, you haven't. You're one step closer to knowing yourself better, and.

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Zoe: Life gives us many opportunities to heal, to recover, to make different choices. We can always do it. That's what's so beautiful.

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Josephine McGrail: Love it. We've got amazing words. Sorry. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Sorry. I'm going to stay on the line for a second, I'm going to say goodbye to the listeners. Thank you so much.