#48 Angie Alderman The Woman Behind: A.N.G.E.R- Get What You Want Without Loosing Yourself

Angie Alderman is a leadership coach, accredited integrative therapist, keynote speaker, and author who helps leaders and individuals navigate complexity with clarity, resilience, and emotional intelligence. She has worked with organisations including Google, the BBC, Meta, AstraZeneca, the NHS, Parliament, and Penguin, supporting leaders to think clearly under pressure, strengthen emotional agility, and build inclusive, high-trust cultures. Blending real-world experience with strengths-based coaching psychology and therapeutic insight, her work supports meaningful personal and professional growth. 

Find her insightful and empowering new book here below,  and start your own journey back to radical honesty and authenticity today. 

A.N.G.E.R. on Waterstones (Paperback)

A.N.G.E.R. on Bookshop.org UK

A.N.G.E.R. at Walmart (Hardcover)

 A.N.G.E.R. at Browns Books UK

A.N.G.E.R.: Get What You Want Without Losing Yourself on Amazon UK

A.N.G.E.R.: Get What You Want Without Losing Yourself on Amazon US (search results)

A.N.G.E.R.: Get What You Want Without Losing Yourself on Amazon DE (English version)

Hatchards (Piccadilly) – browse/pickup (book available in store; online ordering coming soon): A.N.G.E.R. at Hatchards

Daunt Books (Marylebone) – general bookstore site (search in-store availability): Daunt Books official site

Tip: If a retailer doesn’t show immediate stock online, many London shops offer Click & Collect or can order a copy for you.

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Winners are announced on the 1st of every month

Transcript

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Josephine McGrail: So, happy, happy… what have we got today? Happy 15th of January 2026, my lovely listeners out there, and welcoming to the podcast my wonderful friend, amazing Angie Alderman. My lovely Angie, I will share a little bit about how we originally met.

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Josephine McGrail: As far as I remember, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it was during COVID,

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Josephine McGrail: And during COVID, I decided to go heads-on, full-on, everything online, in every single way that I could sort of…

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Josephine McGrail: help others, and also help myself feel more connected, and I did this thing where I offered an energy healing session, I think it was by a donation, or something like that, but I didn't offer it until, like, 12 minutes into my big talk about life and weird and wonderful things, and thinking, no one is gonna reach out, because no one listens for 12 minutes. And then there you were. All of a sudden, this wonderful woman, yourself, and your alderman.

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Josephine McGrail: Reached out to me and went.

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Josephine McGrail: hey, that sounds kind of nice, that energy healing thing. Let's do it. Is that right, Angie? Is that how we met?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Yeah, I… we met during COVID, that's correct, and the energy healing,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: that I came to you for was really based around that existential kind of crisis that we were having during COVID. So, it was, you know, nothing was happening.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: There was communities and support networks.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: flourishing in different spaces, but there was… you know, I wanted to go to a space that was more felt, sense, and more body… embodied. And then this happened, so I just felt that this was just something I had to lean into. And actually, I have to say that

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: with all of the, kind of, medical people, that I've met, and all of the… all the different types of practitioners that I've met.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: this experience was the most profound and most healing that I had encountered, and it was exactly what I needed at that time to kind of move forward that real kind of, as I say, existentialism that was happening all around.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, that's absolutely amazing to hear. I'm sitting here, like, I just got goosebumps, thank you so much, and I'm so happy that it had such a profound effect on you. That's just, yeah, so beautiful. I'm going to read up your bio here, because as much as we're going to be talking about you, and everything that made you who you are today, but also your amazing book that you've got out.

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Josephine McGrail: You do so many things, Angie, so I'm just gonna read out here. You are a leadership coach, an accredited integrative therapist, a keynote speaker, and an author who helps leaders and individuals navigate complexity with clarity, resilience, and emotional intelligence.

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Josephine McGrail: You've worked with organizations including Google, the BBC, Meta, AstraZeneca, the NHS, Parliament, and Penguin, supporting leaders to think clearly under pressure, strengthen emotional agility, and build inclusive, high-trust cultures.

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Josephine McGrail: Blending real-world experience with strengths-based cultures and coaching psychology and therapeutic insight, your work supports meaningful personal and professional growth.

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Josephine McGrail: Welcome to the show, Angie! So good to have you here.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Yay!

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Josephine McGrail: So, my lovely Angie, I always thought out, where did it all begin? And not just in terms of your…

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Josephine McGrail: you know, your life's career, life choice, life path, but really, like, where did… where did you arrive? So, you know, where on the planet did you arrive, and what family system were you born into? Give us a little insight, a little window into the beginning of your life.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So, I was, my parents were in roles that were.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: you know, kind of managing people and caregivers, my mum looked after people with mental health conditions and geriatrics, so we were… I was one of those kind of latchkey kids, so that meant I had a…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: In those days, way back, literally string round my neck with my front door key on it, so that when Mum and Dad were out at work, I could let myself into the house when I'd finished school.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And, so, in the holidays, there wasn't this…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: availability of, after-school clubs that there is now, or the… the trend of having, you know, people taking care of your kids just wasn't there. So… well, it's not a trend, an actual practical system wasn't in place.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So I would go a lot with Mum and Dad to their workplaces, and that constituted my school holidays. So I was around a lot of diversity at a very young age, and around quite,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Complex situations with people with big feelings.

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Josephine McGrail: And I think that…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: that was something that really did… did influence my decisions moving into an adult life. But also.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: when we… there's some photographs of us as kids, and for some reason, I was always…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I mean, this is slightly tongue-in-cheek, but I was always in a nurse's uniform, and then cut to much later on in life, I became a performer, and this kind of nurse muse came into effect. But, I think there was that wanting to help others from a really early age.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: But, I didn't follow a tractory, so I…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: did many, many different things, and my early career was in, film and television, in production, which led me to the next step, which was to become, like, a writer, producer, performer, so I went to drama school

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And then I had an eclectic portfolio of work following that that was very much centered around marketing, which then I segued into really skilling up and really learning about how to help people without just being someone that was rescuing. So, I mean, that's quite a lot, but that's really the story of how it came to be.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, amazing, and whereabouts?

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Josephine McGrail: I mean, there's so much in here, so I don't want to not pay it proper respect, because especially that thing that you said, I grew up in complex scenarios, complex situations with people that had a lot of big feelings, right? You know, that thing that you said, your parents would take you with them to their work, and that would sort of be your holiday, and it's really interesting, because I had the same experience.

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Josephine McGrail: Also, I'm from Denmark, hands up, and it's very normal, you just bring your kids everywhere. It's not really, now we have kids, and now we don't do stuff. It's just, we have kids, and they're just an addition to family life, to life itself. So that thing of, like.

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Josephine McGrail: Being around people, As a child, as a child experiencing

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Josephine McGrail: big people, adults, with big emotions, and not just trying to make sense of it, but actually trying to calm the situation, trying to understand, trying to navigate not just how you were feeling, but the atmosphere in the room. I mean, I… when you said that, I just felt the heaviness.

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Josephine McGrail: at times, it must have been. You also found an interesting and intriguing, but also the heavy, the thickness of the density of the atmosphere in the room at times. So, thank you so much for sharing that, because I think…

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Josephine McGrail: You know, having to, you know, that automatically

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Josephine McGrail: You know, trains you to become…

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Josephine McGrail: able to deal with such complexities at such a young age. So, anyway, without diving into a whole hole about that, because that's just him. But thank you so much for sharing that, I think that's super powerful.

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Josephine McGrail: I don't know if you already mentioned it, what city were you born in?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I was born in London, and then…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: quite early on, my parents relocated to Whitstable, which is in the Kent coast, so southeast

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: of the UK, and Whitstable became… it's become, quite a known place. I don't know if you've ever been there, but a lot of people know about it.

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Josephine McGrail: Is that where you go and have all, like, the oysters and stuff? People go to the beach, right? Is that… and it's a really cute, quaint town, is that right? That's what I sort of remember.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Yeah, it's a pebble beach, it's not very comfortable, but along the Kent coast, it can be quite kiss-me-quick type, you know, a stick of rock and candy floss and fun fare, whereas Whitster Ball's more…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: steeped into the tradition of the fishing. We had a huge fishing industry, so there's lots of, fishing, sort of, I want to say memorabilia, but this is still an active industry, so very much about, local industries, and in the…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I don't know when, but steeped in history, there was a lot of smuggling that used to happen along that coastline, so there's a lot of smugglers' caves and this type of thing, but I was really lucky, because Whitstable had the beach, it had the sunshine, it had the outdoors, it had the community, and I was completely surrounded by creatives.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So, all of my primary school the year I was in.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: most people have gone into some kind of art industry or art organization, and it was a really playful, very free space. Again, in secondary school, it became less so, because that particular school I went to was very sort of focused on

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: business and, technology and this kind of thing, which back then wasn't as rich as it is now, so it was less sexy. It was kind of like, oh, where's the art gone? But I ha- I just grew up in this really wonderful,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: culture of music and dance and art, and I was very free. So that, that was nice. Yeah. Although, I have to say, the downside is that it's also quite steeped in,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: the schools that we went to were quite religious, so there was this kind of slight anti-Christ thing going on, but if we park that and think about what did the individuals get.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: it was a really wonderful time, and those relationships still remain. They're very strong. We're in this satellite network of people keeping in touch. And albeit, we… none of us really have that much in common now, but we have that…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Photographic memory of that time that was very free.

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Josephine McGrail: Amazing. And how old were you when you, when you then decided to leave Wetstable, and did you go straight to London, or did you go straight to Asia? Because obviously, I know from, I know from our amazing chats that you spend a lot of time in Asia. Did you go to London first?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: No, I went to Asia, so we… to set it in a political history.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: it was Thatcherism, and there was mass unemployment, and the future was not bright, so having done my A-levels, there was very little choice around further education, because there wasn't much funding.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And we certainly weren't in a position to pay for that. So, the options were really limited, and I just knew then

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: it was a situation of just get out and try something different, with the idea that if it didn't work, you can come back.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So I had the opportunity to…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: take this… it was not a year out, but as I've got older, the only way people understand it is to just explain it like that. I was like, I'll take a year out. Really, I was just a nomad. I just went off with my rucksack and went to Hong Kong, because Hong Kong then was under, the British ruling, which meant I didn't have to apply for a visa so I could work.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And I wound up in, again, a really amazing community of people who were… Backpackers and travellers, but…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: mainly I met local… local people. My friends were local people who predominantly had mixed-race parents, or were local people. So a lot of my friends are Eurasian, and they're scattered all around the world, and they're very successful and super fun. So we had a real… in this situation, and…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: In Whitstable, it was that though the people around you became your family.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And that was really powerful, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: I love that. And how old were you when you did that, when you went off on this amazing and kind of open-ended adventure, I guess?

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Josephine McGrail: How old were you?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I was 18, so I was 18, and I took a one-way ticket, so I went to London to join a temping agency, because this was kind of Plan B, or Plan A, do some temping work. There was this… it was called Miss London, and in the back of the… this, free

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: publication that you could get on the tube, there was a job for a croupier, so I applied for the job as a croupier, I had an interview, and when I got to the interview, actually, the job wasn't for a croupier, the job was to pack boxes in some kind of… tunnel somewhere, and the idea was that if you do that for us, we can see, you know, we can see whether you can walk and talk, we can see how human you are, and then we might

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: think about, you know, giving you training to be a computer. I was just like, this is total BS. So I bought a one-way ticket to Hong Kong, with the idea that I would earn… work in a bar and earn enough money to come back, yet I hadn't considered

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I'd want to stay there, and staying there was definitely the right decision.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, I love this, Angie! It's so beautiful to hear all of this, because I don't know if you know, but I left home and country at the ripe age of 16, so similar age to you, but at 16, I went to London, because I was super fortunate, I got a full scholarship to the dance school I was going to, so at least, you know, yes, I left home and country.

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Josephine McGrail: by myself, but I had an institution I was going to, I had a structure I was going to. So the fact that you're at 18,

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Josephine McGrail: literally just was like, I'm gonna go to Hong Kong, and we shall see what happens, happens, is so, yeah, so inspiring. I love, I love hearing your story, absolutely amazing. And also because, again, this is all a lead-up, all a build-up to understanding what

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Josephine McGrail: in the end, in today's age, prompted you to write your amazing book. And I'm just going to pause this for a moment, because I really want to read… I want to read to listeners a little bit about what this is about. So, Andrew, you've written a book, and it's such… it just sounds so good. I'm so excited to read the whole thing, and it's called Anger, as in A.N dot G dot.

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Josephine McGrail: E dot R. No dot. Get what you want without losing yourself. Ugh, so powerful. Especially because…

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Josephine McGrail: I talk a lot about anger, and the energy behind anger, and all of the bad rep that anger always gets, which I'm sure is, you know, your absolute area of expertise, and I'm so excited to hear more from you on that in a little bit. But, when I saw the title, honestly, not anger, Angie, sorry, I was like.

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Josephine McGrail: This is the best title ever! And finally, finally, anger, the energy of it, everything, you know, the beauty of it, the benefits of it, all of it gets a whole shelf, a whole book for itself.

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Josephine McGrail: as it was supposed to. Because, you know, like, a lot of the time, oh, people come to me, and they're like, Josie, I feel so much anger, and there's shame, and there's guilt, and there's this, ugh, you know, I don't even want to tell anyone that I have this feeling I shouldn't be having, so I'm super excited. And again, I'm going to read a little bit about the book, so it says here.

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Josephine McGrail: Anger. Get what you want without losing yourself.

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Josephine McGrail: A practical, science-backed guide to turning anger into clarity, confidence, and effective action without damaging relationships or compromising who you are. Designed for real-world challenges, the book helps readers self-coach through emotionally charged situations.

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Josephine McGrail: Especially in the workplace, using proven strategies to decide what works best.

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Josephine McGrail: and when. Through case studies and interviews, it shows that constructive change is not only possible, but also repeatable. In a world marked by social upheaval.

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Josephine McGrail: Due political tension and increasing personal pressure, many of us struggle with intense emotions and unclear responses. This book invites readers to listen to anger rather than suppress it.

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Josephine McGrail: transforming it into a powerful tool for life. I made that last little bit myself, because there was a photo in the way, but I'm sure that's what you meant.

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Josephine McGrail: Yes, there you are! Oh, that's… yeah. So, for people on YouTube, this is the book. People on Spotify, head over to YouTube and actually see. It's such a beautiful cover as well.

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Josephine McGrail: We're gonna jump back in time. You are in Hong Kong, you're 18, and like you said, you bought a one-way ticket, and, you know, had a plan A, plan B, but not realizing what would happen if you actually wanted to stay. So what did happen?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: what happened, I began to really just love it there, and there was lots of people of similar ages, albeit I was the youngster… it's really sad, I'm not there anymore. I was the young person in a group, so, I was the youngest, and I think the age group of

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: the main group that I was with was sort of, like, plus 10 years. Of course, I had friends that were all different ages.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And it just felt right, so one… everything was aligned. I got a job as a hostess in a pizza restaurant called Graffiti, which… I just stood at a… stood at, like, a lectern, stood at the desk.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: But they had a DJ set at the weekend, so the crew that came in to do the music got chatting to me, and we were very similar ages, we were just really young people, and they adopted me, in a way. And then they started to put on gigs around town,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: called The Love Train, which was just a group of creatives coming together who had day jobs, and they were doing this in the evenings. So I began to learn much more about how to survive there, and where to go and get different types of work.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: it… I really didn't consider coming back, and I remember when I went to the airport and left, at the time I left here, I was in a very, mismatched relationship with somebody that, it wasn't working.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And my parents actually…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: took me to Heathrow the early, the night before my flight, because they had thoughts that I'm… I might get persuaded by this person to stay, which I really didn't, but they were trying to be really good parents, and like, it's really important you go. And as I left, as I departed, my dad said, I really don't want to see you.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I don't want to see you before 6 months.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: which I got on the plane with this, like, I can't believe this is what they've said to me, you know, poor me. It was a brilliant piece of advice, because he was saying, give it a go. So, my adult self, I can actually translate what that… what that meant. It was that kind of, like, just giving me that… that kick that I needed. But anyway, when I got there, it was… it was… it was, it was really evident that coming back here to mass unemployment and political upheaval and depression was just

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Not the right choice.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And very quickly, I was… I had lots of really interesting jobs, so I was, TEFL trained, I was teaching English as a foreign language, I was, doing some…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: promotion work.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: there's a… I mean, loosely, promotion work. It was all above board. There was… I'd host parties for…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: high net worth clients for their children, so I'd dress up as a fairy, and at the time, I thought I had a really amazing costume. I really felt that I was really rocking the fairy vibe, but when I look back at the photos, it's kind of a bit obscene. You know, I just had a bit of netting with a swimsuit on, and some kind of, like, really naff wings. But all of this

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: All of this step-stoned into… I got a job as a roving reporter for the local TV station on the English Channel, which led, eventually, to me writing, children's scripts

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So in one program, I was a co-presenter, and then for another show, I conceptualized and wrote the show.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: had a co-writer, wrote children's scripts, which really opened doors and led me to spaces and places that I wouldn't have seen or been able to have access to.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And when I came out of that, I was more qualified to then work with international crews that came into Hong Kong. So my role was always very much like the intermediate person between the Chinese crew and the British crew, because there was, as you can imagine, quite a lot of difference, and my role was to

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Translate and, broker some of those differences.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So, that… that was really interesting. I worked on a whole series of a program back then called Soldier Soldier, which was based around, soldiers

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: working overseas, and there was an entire series shot there, and I was the third AD. And the first AD let me be in the room with the action, so I had the director, the first AD, let me in. I was quite small, I was young, so I was able to be with the actors and support their needs, but I saw so much around film production.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: acting…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I was having, like, daily masterclasses, which then really did, you know, of all the options of the things that I could do, I thought, oh, actually, I think I'd really like to have a go at this acting… acting gig, which, you know, I don't know if that is a good decision in the end, but I don't regret it.

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Josephine McGrail: I… you know what, I'm just sitting here going.

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Josephine McGrail: I hope that… I'm sure… I know you know this, but for listeners out there, try and notice how Angie's upbringing, the fact that you were a child that was, you know, brought along into the adult's world very quickly, into adults with big emotions.

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Josephine McGrail: having to navigate that, understand that, detect, dilute that, organize that, change the atmosphere, this whole big orchestry job that you did as a child. Notice how that, already as a child.

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Josephine McGrail: gave you the tools, the key instruments that you then needed for that time in Hong Kong, because as you said, you became the intermediate, Ada, right? You have the bridge, the link. Like, those were skills that you had learned and picked up, not just in early day of Hong Kong life, those were skills that you had literally been learned, and that had emerged through you since adulthood. And I just think this is such a key note, because often.

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Josephine McGrail: we can look back at our childhood, especially. I mean, I'm the first one to do that and go, whoa, that was really hard, you know? Wouldn't want that for anyone else. But it's so beautiful when we look back and we go, but it all makes sense now. You know, that… everything that…

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Josephine McGrail: you were taught just through lived experience, everything that you worked out and realized that you were capable of doing was then used, like, super useful, came in super useful during Hong Kong life, and I'm sure, you know, throughout your whole life and etc. But just wanted to highlight that, because I just think it's such an important piece of information to the puzzle.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: It's really interesting, so I haven't connected those dots at all, and actually, I've always had this idea that I've been pretty rubbish at the other jobs I've done, not the job I'm doing now, but… but there was something I was able to do, which was this, it's that kind of brokering, because on paper, the jobs that I've had, until I trained as a therapist and a coach.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: and I went through rigorous training for a very long, long period of time, which was intentional.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: prior to that, all the jobs I had, I would not have gone… got had I gone through a traditional route of applying with a CV and having the traditional interview. Everything I've done has been kind of in a very kooky, strange way, but I've man… you know, not managed, that sounds tough. I've… I've really embraced the roles and been able to, kind of.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: bring something.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: when I was younger, people used to say, you're, you know, you're wiser than your age, or you're very wise, and someone said that to me.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: not so long ago, about 5 or 6 years ago, and I found it quite alarming, because I was like, if I'm not wise now, there's something wrong. But it's… I think it's just a figure of speech, it's just that kind of, oh, that's wise. But it's not really wisdom as such, it's just that kind of being able to, reflect on what's happening.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And think about it more coolly, which led to wanting to write the book, in a way, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: No, absolutely, and yeah, I'm so excited. So here you are, all of this is happening in Hong Kong. At some point, did you end up staying for about 8 or 9 years, is that what you mentioned?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I did, I fell in love, I met someone, we were engaged, and he had family in the Philippines, so we were in and out of the Philippines a lot.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So I had, kind of, part one was Angie on her own with this friendship network that were… with my family, and part two was being in a relationship. But I did realize quite early on there that, you know, you sort of…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Your intention to get away from home and get away from structure and family and increase your freedom sometimes winds you up in the same situation, so being…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: In a partnership with someone, with the overheads of living together, and, you know, there's a lot of, kind of, adult responsibilities and being accountable that you don't have

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: as much of when you're single.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So, I, I had to… but you… Hong Kong's very like London. As you're in… as you're in Thailand, now you're in Bangkok, and I'm sure this resonates. You can live…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: you could have so many different chapters there, you can have so many different lives there. It's such a fast-paced, frenetic, dynamic city that, you could do it multiple times. So, I did… I did stay for, what felt… what felt really natural.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And I… I'm sorry, I forgot what else you were asking me.

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Josephine McGrail: No, don't you worry at all. I love it, and I just, I love how you articulate yourself, like, your choice of words.

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Josephine McGrail: You sound really, really beautiful, Angie. I can really, like, feel your energy, it's absolutely amazing. Yeah, so all I was asking was, how long did you end up staying in Hong Kong, and why did you choose to do

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Josephine McGrail: To leave when you're dead.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Yeah, so we have to remember as well, in Hong Kong, I was really capable and able, and I had super, super fun, but I was also alone, so I didn't have any,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: you know, when I've looked at my,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: psychology, you know, through astrology, Saturn was missing when I was born, so I had no structure, and I didn't, you know, I had really massive orange hair, like, really big 80s hair. I looked… I looked strange, and I, and I can judge myself, I think… I think I'm allowed to do that. And I didn't really have a sense for what to wear, or, you know, and I was running around in plimp soles, because

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So I didn't really… I wasn't really eating the right food as well, so I think it's important to say that I had success, and I was happy, but at the same time, there was a lot of things that I needed to sort out about myself that I had no role models.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And what happened then was that, you know, life takes over.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: we had, several bereavements in the family, one of which was my cousin, who I was… she was raised like a sister, and she was super young, and she passed away of cancer, so…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I felt this real desire to come back to Europe, and to connect with my family, and to,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: you know, really understand the family dynamic, because at this point, my identity had become something completely different. So I was really searching for that lineage, like, who am I, what am I, where do I come from?

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Josephine McGrail: Horse.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: that was the kind of sense to come… to come back, but the… also, the huge draw was that I had gotten a place at drama school. So that… that combination, sort of literally drove me back to… to the UK, and I went… instead of landing and…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: you know, decompressing and taking things at my own pace. I just literally got off the plane, drove to drama school, and then did this really intensive course, which was…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I felt that it was… it was a really good thing to do, and I enjoyed it.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: But I really recall being quite sad. I recall being quite… really lonely, and, like, someone had just turned the light off.

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Josephine McGrail: So.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I wasn't able to show up as myself, and people, you know, across life, I don't care what anyone says, people judge you. So what I wasn't able to talk about or translate was my experience I just literally had 2 minutes ago in Asia.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So people saw me as this thing, and by then the orange hair had died down, and I was looking a little bit different. But it was that kind of judgy, the judginess, and then I bumped into, in quite a horrible way, into this sense of classism.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So, where did I sit in this structure here that, of course, in Asia, that you don't even see that. So, I found all of that quite, activating.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And it can really, it can really disable you. And didn't have the tools to know how to fix that, but that's, you know, again, part of how I wound up where I am today and what happened next.

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Josephine McGrail: And can I just ask, I mean, this is all just so amazing, and beautiful, and challenging, and heartbreaking, and heart-opening, and all of it, all of the emotions in between, and it's like watching a movie, like, you know, listening to you, and the way that you use your body, and oh, it's just gorgeous. So, when you did go back to London, were you around…

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Josephine McGrail: 28 or 29?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I was. I was 20… yeah, 27, something like that.

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Josephine McGrail: So those are also the years leading up to third year, right? And as we all know, when we're going in towards a new chapter, whether or not we are into the whole age thing or not, something does shift. Of course it does, because we are about to embark on something new, and I certainly remember myself when I was around 27,

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Josephine McGrail: I feel like in my head, I've always been 10 years older than I am, so anyway, I thought I was turning 40, I was turning 30. It wasn't that it was a big, scary thing, but it was more that I personally looked at my life. I definitely think it puts everyone into a space of reflection, and you kind of go.

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Josephine McGrail: Is this a reality that I want to keep going with?

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Josephine McGrail: Or does something… do I want something to shift? And personally, when I was 27, I looked at my life, and from the outside, I was modeling all the time, I was dancing all the time, I was traveling all the time, looked extremely glamorous, and I felt like I was dying. I was like, ugh. Like, I loved dancing, but I hated the modeling. I was grateful I could do it, but absolutely was not my soul's purpose, you know? I was just… every single moment I did a modeling job, I was like.

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Josephine McGrail: pushing the money to the side, into that savings account, you know? It had a purpose, but definitely, like, just reflecting, and also for listeners out there, if you're finding yourself in your late 20s, and all of a sudden you're like, hey, I thought life was good, what the fuck is going on here? Completely normal. And of course, listeners out there in your late 30s going into 40s, same thing for you, you know?

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Josephine McGrail: Slightly different variations, of course, because we are always in different evolutions of our soul's journey, but just… I think it's a really cool factor to put in that thing of.

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Josephine McGrail: There definitely is something about these specific, years, and also, as you mentioned about Saturn, I love astrology. So, what is your birth? What's your sun sign, can I ask, Angie?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Yeah, so I'm, a Gemini. There is only… there's only one Gemini that I think most of us don't like, but they're… but most Geminis, every time I like somebody in a film, I'm, like, looking up there, but they're… I guess they're Gemini. Quite proud of that. I did… I did enter into that Saturn return in a very dispropobulated way, because…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: as I mentioned, I was not seen for who I was, so I was…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: scrapping around in the dirt for work and, finding things very difficult, and I didn't…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: talk about my experiences, and I certainly didn't, like, what we call show off, promote them. But when I did try to hold conversations with people, their disinterest was just…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: insurmountable. So, I actually wrote around… I wrote about

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: my Saturn return. I wrote about… the book I've written is a very short novella… well, the nature of a novella is it's short. It's a story around the idea… yeah, so it's when… when Saturn… last exit to Bellum is all around the Saturn return, and

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: the way that I was able to, kind of.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: turn that into a story was the idea that Saturn had left me, so that Saturn was returned. So I was consciously going out and trying to seduce and manipulate Saturn to return to me, by being very surface. This is the premise of the story, being very surface and doing for good on top, but not underneath. And the story is the trials and tribulations of

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: well, yeah, no shit, Sherlock, that didn't work out. But it was really about embracing that, and as you say, I actually started writing it when I was that age, and I just shoved it in a drawer.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And revisited it, when I turned 50, because I felt that, actually.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I had had enough distance, and enough reflection to kind of craft that story in a way that was more true. I think if I tried to do it earlier, I probably would have

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: glossed over things, so it's not a… it's a fun, comical piece, it's not depressing, but I was able to kind of do it with truth, being that much older, and I had the same feelings at 50 as I did then, which was…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: this transition really meant something in terms of, I can't go forward, not sorting my house out, because I know what's not serving me, and I'm an adult, and I need to be accountable for that. And part of that.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Part of that whole piece was looking at completion.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So the novella was… it was a completion piece. Let's complete the things that I said I would honor to myself and do. So it was an exercise of completion, and I did enjoy that, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: I really love this, and again, so obviously for the astrology lovers out there, you guys already know about Saturn, but for anyone else, whether you're into astrology or not, if you can just look at Saturn like you're saying, Angie, as, you know, it's like time. Time is the greatest initiator often in our life, right? The fact that we know we're gonna run out of time, like, literally, is, you know, not sounding morbid, we are only here for a certain amount of time.

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Josephine McGrail: So, for every day that goes by, every now and then, Saturn comes and kind of knocks on our shoulder and goes like, hey!

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Josephine McGrail: Maybe it's time now. But what's also beautiful about Saturn is that Again, as a metaphor.

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Josephine McGrail: It's… he's always kind of around, the same way that time is always around.

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Josephine McGrail: But there are certain points in our life where time feels closer than ever, right? Where the hour class feels like it's getting lower on one side, right? And I think, you know, the fact that

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Josephine McGrail: you started, you know, you had the experience, you started writing the book, the novella, and then you put it in a drawer, you said, right? And… and then… and I think this is a really key thing. So, Saturn, concept of time.

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Josephine McGrail: And if we look at anything in nature, everything blooms when the time is right, and we cannot force that.

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Josephine McGrail: And so, there was nothing wrong… it's not like there was anything wrong with you, Angie, like, no point in sending you not finishing when you first started writing it. And for listeners out there, maybe you are currently finding yourself at a space, a transition point in your life, you started a project, and maybe you're like, oh, I'm just that type that never finished. No, you're not.

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Josephine McGrail: That's not necessarily true at all. Maybe this project just isn't, you know, maybe you haven't lived enough, maybe there's not enough life experience just yet. Maybe you're not ripe enough.

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Josephine McGrail: And that's okay. And I think that's the same thing with the whole Saturn, right? Like, so Saturn returns every… I think the transition is every 30 years, right? About every 30 years.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: the agency, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Something like that, right? So it's a slow… it's a slow burner, and there's something beautiful about that. And again, Saturn, the same way, so just because something isn't visible, isn't tangible, hasn't manifest in one's life just yet, doesn't mean it's not for you, doesn't mean it's not coming.

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Josephine McGrail: just means that perhaps… perhaps actually we can really learn something from Angie's story here, and perhaps it's just time to put it in a drawer, and maybe actually be okay with that.

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Josephine McGrail: So, just that little… I think that's something really beautiful, because I think it's really easy, especially in a very fast-paced world that we live in today, where it kind of feels like we should have the inspiration, the motivation, and now the action, and now it's done. Like, right? Actually, there is so much beauty in, at times, going, you know what?

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Josephine McGrail: This thing over here? That deserves a draw. And I'm gonna put it in that drawer, and it's gonna germinate, it's gonna do its thing, and I'm gonna live life, and the little project is living life, because we're always in relationship.

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Josephine McGrail: And then if one day it feels like, like you said, that feeling of.

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Josephine McGrail: I owed to myself, this is… this was about completion.

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Josephine McGrail: you know, I feel ready, I want to honor this, then you go ahead and you do it.

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Josephine McGrail: And I think that's… that's a… that's a really, really beautiful story, and thank you so much for sharing that, Angie, I absolutely love that.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And also, just on the fact check, it's 28 years, but when I… I think when, you know, what I understand is it's… it's years either side, so I think it can start at age 28. It's typically at 30 you feel the pinch, but it can go on to 32.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: meaning it sat in return, and I think my… I believe I had a very long one, so that… which equals being in sort of, like, turmoil for much longer than some people who kind of slip through the net. But that's all very much individual… it's so individual,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Yeah, and it makes sense retrospectively at the time, if you're sort of…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: conscious of the concept, you, you don't quite… you, you know, it's hard to compute when you're looking back. And then, of course, you know, you have… if you, if you're, you know, if you're lucky, you'll have three, at least three in your lifetime.

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Josephine McGrail: Amazing.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I love that. Okay, so then you… there you were, you did your… you did your drama course.

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Josephine McGrail: Where are we up to in life now? So now you're, like, in early 20s, early 30s, I would assume, maybe 30, something like that. Where did you decide? Were you living in London? What was life like for you? A little window into Angie Life in your early 30s, please.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Okay, so the drama school I went to, I went to Guildford, which… not Guildhall, but they're equally, you know, Guildhall is brilliant. Guildford is very centered around musical theater. They do have an acting course, I was on the acting course, and when I tumbled out of that, I realized that work, again, was very hard to get.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: You know, just it's very, very…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: You know, I don't need to tell any listener how hard that is to get work as an actor, so I started to write and produce my own work, and had several one-woman shows.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: then what happened, people would come, casting agents, you know, one or two, you'd sort of keep on their shoulder, can you come and see me? In order to get an agent, but the advice I was given was things like, oh, well, if you're in a one-person show, we don't know if you can act with another person.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Perhaps you need to lower your resonance, it's too high, or I think maybe the hair's too… So, again, this kind of information is so irresponsible to give to a young person, you can get all sorts of body dysmorphia, you can get insecurities.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So you have to have very broad shoulders, and kind of really be able to take this stuff with a pinch of salt. I'm sure today that's less prevalent, but when we're talking, like, several years ago, a lot of the advice that I was given was.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: really? It's not… it's not ground… it's not grounded.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And it wasn't meaningful, and it wasn't about my best interests. I did, without an agent, manage to… I was in Popcorn for a year, written by Ben Elton, I was in a play at the Royal Court, I had a couple of commercials under my belt, I was doing bits of TV, so I was able to do, go quite far without any

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: agent looking after me. But it really became evident that

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I was kind of grieving the job I never had, so that sounds awfully dramatic, but when you're wandering around the streets because you're not working.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: you're just left with no… my potential is not being used. And as you say, the time is ticking, you know, we're aware of time, and it's like, I'm wasting my days and times and years because my full potential is not being utilized, people aren't seeing me. And that's largely down to my perception of myself, and what I was able to do in terms of how can I enable myself to do things.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So I decided to, try lots of different things, lots of different kind of professions, which began this portfolio of different jobs.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And took contract work, so not to kind of bore the listeners with every bit, but I wound up in Yahoo, which, back in the day, was a competitor to Google. They were something. Today, they're a… it's a smaller company.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And it lost huge market share. But at that time, I landed… again, there's this expression, you know, like, landing with your bum in the butter. I landed in a company at the right time, right place, and had enormous fun, and I traveled the world, and I saw lots of different things. I was,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: privy to executive teams and C-suite, and doing lots of fun things in Cannes with the marketing team and the sales teams. So that… that was… that kind of enabled me to really, have a massive reset.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And fulfill that potential that I had. And think about, very aligned with yourself, Josie, very aligned with the, oh, what's it all about, though? This doesn't feel, nourishing. I don't feel my sole purpose is being…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: is here. So I did have…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: an income, a good income, I did have access to travel, I had all the things that you might wish for, but inside I felt quite empty and hollow, and I just felt there might… there has to be more. And that's when I began to take myself more seriously.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And the options that kind of followed were, how can I best serve myself in getting trained?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: without… Having no income?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: and, not being at work, and, you know, staying engaged in life. So I took a very slow journey toward

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: being who I am now, whereas I meet people today that, you know, do that in very different… different… different styles. So, you have the person who'll go and do a degree, and then a master's, and a PhD, and then they're out the gate. Or somebody who trains as this, that. You know, there's so many different options, so many different options, and the best option is the one that you take. The best option is the one you choose. And that was what I did, and it enabled me to be…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Upfront and personal across businesses, with different players.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: watching the most incredible work, but the most entrenched political toxicity that you can imagine. So I've kind of been exposed to, what was missing, which was the business side of business.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So being on the art side, that's okay, but really understanding how businesses work and how business people are was what the next kind of chapter gave me, and even more motivation to continue with my learning and development so that I could come out the other end as I am now.

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Josephine McGrail: Absolutely amazing, and thank you so much for sharing all of this so openly, Angie. I think this is just so refreshing for everyone to hear, and as I always say, whether or not you are… because I have a lot of people that are artists on the show, and I'm always like, even if you don't feel you're an artist yourself, aren't to the creatives? There's something here for everyone, and I think, like you just said, like.

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Josephine McGrail: Regardless of however…

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Josephine McGrail: whatever path in life you choose, and whatever path you continue to choose, it is always the right one for you, you know? Because again, like, again, talking about the Saturn theme, there can be so much pressure, right? So much pressure, and we look at other people, and now we have all the social media where everyone else is like, hey, we should be doing this thing, right? And if our story inside feels differently, and it looks differently.

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Josephine McGrail: we can really feel like an outsider, right? And on the deepest level.

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Josephine McGrail: We all deeply long to belong, not just… not only to our own self, but we long to belong to other groups of human beings. So it's such a human need and desire to kind of not even judge and compare, but just go, is there a group for me out there? And I, you know, have I somehow missed my group? You know, and so thank you so much for sharing that, hey, I followed this thing, it felt right, until it didn't.

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Josephine McGrail: and then something else did. And then, you know, reflecting back over your life and going, wow, this is what I learned from this group, this is what I learned from being here, this is when I started to kind of, like you said.

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Josephine McGrail: I wanted to find and build a structure within myself and for myself, and I wanted to honor myself, right? I loved that so much. So… so thank you so much for sharing all of this. Let's take you forward in time a little bit now, and let's take you into…

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Josephine McGrail: You have your amazing book.

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Josephine McGrail: I'm sure…

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Josephine McGrail: as a fellow writer here myself, you know, I always say, like, a book doesn't just, you know, it's not like you wake up one day and you're like, oh, this is the book, and two days later it's there. You know, obviously a book

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Josephine McGrail: it lives and breathes and moves within you, usually for a long, long time before you even start to put it onto paper. I don't know how your experience was, but tell us a little bit about it. When did you first become aware? When did you get that little, like, slight hint of, like, hmm.

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Josephine McGrail: I want to write about this, or I want to create something with this, or I want to bring this thing to life, or there has to be a purpose with everything that I've experienced in life.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: You're absolutely right, and I think it was just a seed that was kind of, fermenting, if that's the right word, or germinating, I don't know what the word… for a very long time, and that really… it's the backward-forward thing, so if I go back here, I can see backwards in my past, there was this… a lot around…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: anger, rage, aggression, violence, that I was exposed to in lots of different settings. And,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: what really kind of brought it to the fore, as we said COVID before, but my client… my clients

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: bring… bring it. But they bring it in the session, or they're… they're kind of…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: You know, with all respect, dump it in the session.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: But very few people want to talk about that, or are able to articulate, or even have a felt sense of it. So, it was kind of into my… into my thinking about how… we need to have… we don't need to, we don't need to force anyone, it's not… there has to be a consensual piece here, but also it's…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: how do we just normalize this? It's really okay, it's really okay, and it's okay by me. As long as someone's not, harming me, you know, it's really okay by me. So, I wanted to kind of break the myth that you mentioned earlier, that anger is…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: aggression. It's… it's not. So you can have anger, aggression leading to violence, but you can have anger as a signal, and what do you need? And this is… this is what I was looking at, and I ran a, I ran some research before I started writing the book to see how it would land.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And the research came back, or the data came back.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: with, like, a 49-52% split, which was so polarizing, it's the same as politics, it's the same as Brexit, it's the same… which says to me, yes, therefore, it needs to be… not it needs to be, but there is a… there is a space and a place

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: a place for this. And then cut to, I… the thing that was preventing me from writing about it was…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: the more people leant in and said, I don't think you should do that, it's a bit icky,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: the more I understood I had to lean into what repulsed myself and others.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Some players would say to me things like, yeah, I know, like, if I said, oh, I think about doing anger, yeah, do you know, I noticed that you can get anger, and just this very insidious, passive-aggressive…

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Josephine McGrail: of… mmm.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Yeah, I know once you… it's like, whoa, okay, so all of this is huge motive… this fabric is really motivational for me to write something. I'm not the first person to write a book on anger. Clearly, it has been written about, you know, but this book is about anger now.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And it's not about… anger. It's… it's straight to…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: what you can do in different situations to offset your anger, and learn about what it's telling you, learn the signals. What is it telling you? What is the mess… anger is a messenger.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Then what happened was I was, yeah, I was kind of like, I just don't have the time, not as in, way, I'm so busy, but literally, I didn't have the time. I couldn't take…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: time away from my client work, because I have bills to pay, etc. So it's kind of… I just don't… I can't buy myself the luxury of free time, unpaid time.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And then…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So, what I have skipped in the, in the, you know, 4 years ago, I… so I, I got married…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Two years ago, yeah, woo! Late developer. To the lovely Michael, and what actually happened was that last February, around Valentine's Day, we got a call to say that his mum was

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: pretty sick. We wound up being her primary carers living in her home.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So we had to, relocate from London, and she had stage 4 advanced cancer of the lung,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: and other body parts. So we… we… we knew that we were in a very… in a time capsule, in a very limited time space, but it was really essential that she…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: had the best time that we could provide her with as she was leaving the planet. And it was then that I had the time to write this, because it was really inappropriate and untenable to have clients.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: to see clients, to travel and go and see them in person, or to see people online, because, you know, as time progressed, I couldn't say, oh, could you just hold on? You kind of run out of the, oh, I think it's the Amazon man, I can just turn the washing machine off, oh, I think my neighbor… you know, all of those excuses kind of evaporate, and you're literally like, I have someone with really high needs downstairs, and I can't… I don't want to do this. But also, this lady did not want me.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: you know, I'm the outlaw, she didn't want me sitting by her side the whole time, so I said to her, how about… and…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Patricia was a very beautiful lady who wanted everybody to just live their lives, so I brokered with her and said, how about I write this book, and pull back on my work?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I didn't really explain what the book was about, so she thought, for some time, I was writing a book about her life, so every time I went in with a cup of tea or something, she would catch me up with her entire life story, until I actually got the balls to say to her, it's a book on anger.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: But that's what happened while we had that downtime, and certainly after she passed, there was a lot of…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: paperwork and administrative tasks that we had… we had to… we had to kind of complete that meant I was still locked out of work, but I had this space where I could go and just get everything out of my brain and…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: You know, doing a literature review is a big chunk of this, so…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Which means, you know, reading other people's work and looking into different concepts and what other people are saying, and I had that headspace to do that. Really, she gave me the gift of time, by looking after her, which is great, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, I love this so much. And I also love, again, so, again, from listeners out there, looking at your life, Angie, it's like…

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Josephine McGrail: You've been so in tune with…

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Josephine McGrail: what you felt about situations. So whenever… not just opportunities, but whatever situations, people, spaces, life itself would open up within you, you've been responding with it. So again, you know, and I'm sure, you know, if you've repetitively had, you know, clients, people, family, loved ones kind of be passive-aggressive with you, or somehow just, like, bringing something or not believing in you.

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Josephine McGrail: Of course that stirs stuff up, but I love, again, that instead of stirring it up and going, oh, no, you know, that's just how life is, or oh, well, there's nothing I can do about it, you actually was like, oh, hang on, this keeps happening, this seems to be a theme, you know, and instead of, you know, yeah, whatever, getting lost in the downward spiral about what that… the personal reasons of what that said about you or anything else, which I'm sure, you know, might also have been

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Josephine McGrail: In a minute, because, you know, our minds are clever like that.

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Josephine McGrail: But to then be able to go, This keeps reoccurring.

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Josephine McGrail: This tells me that there's a need, there's a need, the world has a need to learn more about this at this moment in time.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Yeah, it really is this moment in time, peace.

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Josephine McGrail: And I really, I really agree on that, and I think that's so beautiful. And again, so, I always, you know, in my own life and anyone else's, I only share, like.

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Josephine McGrail: whatever you're feeling, and not just personally, can you let that be your healing? So the same thing, whatever stirs you up, when you're noticing something within yourself or in the world as a whole.

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Josephine McGrail: Don't just moan about it, ask yourself, how can I best support myself? How can I best support the world? Like, pour your energy, even when it's frustration, or it's sadness, or it's grief, or it's, you know, incredible joy, like, pour that energy into something productive.

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Josephine McGrail: And it's so amazing that you decided, you know, I can talk about this for hours, because I just… I love talking about the concept of anger, and it's so funny, because I've had 3 people here in Bangkok ask me about anger, and going, oh, you know, I'm doing this meditation because I don't want to feel this, and I'm like, but anger is so beautiful! So, you know, it's so gorgeous you've written this book. So, tell us more about it. So, it really came from your own…

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Josephine McGrail: Lyft experiences, and then you started doing all this incredible research, and also the fact that you were like.

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Josephine McGrail: Again, you know, you're like a magician, you're like an alchemist, you're using what life gifts you, so you go, okay, I can't just take time out completely, but then this, again, you know, in inverted brackets, you know, come as, like, opportunity came up.

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Josephine McGrail: Where, you know, you wanted to be there for your partner, and your partner's mother, bless her. And then, again, you worked with that situation, because a lot of people could have gone, well, oh no, I just can't, you know, couldn't possibly write this now, and you were like, no, I'm gonna turn the best, you know, I'm gonna turn a very, very, very challenging and very sad situation into something positive. And you did, and that's just a, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: Really amazing.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I really agree with you. It's… it's the idea, if you feel that you're in victim, it's that sense of what do I need… what do I… what do I want to have happen, and what do I need to…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: do to get that. And that was… that was the kind of… the sense of it. And also, for me, this is my medicine. This… this is… this is my… if I don't do… if I don't, sort of.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: I don't… I've never enjoyed, and again, it's a really personal choice, I've never enjoyed

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: whenever I've experienced any kind of trauma, or upset, or…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: you know, anything linked to, people passing, this kind of thing. I… for me, I need to do something that's around the written word.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: verbally, this kind of thing. It's not okay for me to just sit with that. Everyone's so different, so I don't want to offend anyone. Your way is your way, but for me, this felt important. And, not to say, it was a very complex situation, because what…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Patricia, known as Pat, what she… what she asked as her wishes were not respected by others. So we… Michael and I, my partner and I, had to be those kind of guardian of wishes, and she didn't have the…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: She just didn't have the,

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: inclination, or the intentional desire to go out front and do that herself. She kind of leant on us to do that, so we became kind of in the… in this role that meant some people weren't happy. And then we were living in suburbia, which

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: if you've been in a big frenetic… I've lived in cities my whole life, so suddenly, apart from when I was very small, so suddenly being in suburbia was such a culture shock. People are really interested on what day does the bin go out, and…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: For me, this was just mind-blowing. I… in London, I'm happy to come… come home safely. There, I need to know what color I've been and what day, and if you don't know, that's an issue. Then, there's lots of different players involved with palliative care.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: It can get messy.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And I was met and confronted by other people's anger around this, and then I had my own, with regards to what was happening, how we were being perceived, you know, all of this. So without going into

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: any personal detail that would be attributed to anyone else, if I just hold my own. It was like, wow, yeah, this really is the time to… to think about what… what…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: do I, but what would others need in situations that are quite high octane, so that they can…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: they can just be themselves, and they can… it's really important to feel, which is a lot of, you know, what you advocate, Josie, is that kind of…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: you have your voice, and you have a right to… you have a right to be. You have a right to be. So, it was that sense of, this… this will help, people show up without feeling violated or minimizing themselves. And actually, what's happened

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: as a kind of byproduct of writing this is that I'm…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: it's out the bag now, like, I… the horse is less the stable. I'm now unable

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: completely unable to go back. I'm unable to not say. I'm unable to not do. Which doesn't mean I'm more argumentative, or less dull, it just means that it's so natural for me now to…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: To listen to what… to think about where's this coming from, what is the signal telling me.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: what am I going to do about that? Choices. And if it involves speaking out, you know… So, in… interestingly or not interestingly, depending on how invested you are, but a couple of people have said, more recently, you're very direct. You know what?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: news. I've always been very direct, I just haven't been listened to.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So that's the difference that the book has given me. People can now kind of… oh, she's quite direct. And direct is okay, as long as, you know, and what does direct mean anyway? It…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: The truth hurts, but sometimes if we're not… if we're not talking in truth.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: whoa. You know, we're talking in, layers and layers of passive-aggressive, layers of… this stuff I don't have time for. If anyone comes to me with it, I'm gonna say it. So, obviously, in my client work, I don't want to frighten people off.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: We unpack this and look at that, but more often than not, my clients are asking me how to manage the very same thing.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: And I know that I, you know, we could argue I don't see my blind spots, and I can be this, this, and this, but I certainly think that, being grounded in yourself enough to be able to speak up is an amazing, way to experience life. And you have to…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Put down what people think about you, as long as you're not rude, you're not hurting anyone, because it's not my business what other people think about me.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: 100%, and you're also not, like you said in the beginning, you're not here to rescue anyone, but you are here, your only responsibility is to speak your soul's truth into existence.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: And that is, you know, that is really what it is. And of course, we can choose tone of voice, we can choose

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Josephine McGrail: choice of words. We can also choose to leave a situation, right? But I think, you know, the fact that, and this is not saying you, but a lot of society, we talk about, let's, you know, the same thing, stress management, or anger management. What about anger utilization?

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Josephine McGrail: utilizing it, like, and this is, I'm assuming, is what your book is all about, right? You know?

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Josephine McGrail: Anger, how to get what you want without losing yourself. And so, because this is a really potent energy. Don't just give it all away! You know, it's a potent energy. And I don't want to sit here and put words into your mouth, Angie, because you obviously really know what you're talking about, and your book, just looking at the content page, I was like, I want to read all of it! Every chapter looks so juicy and so inspiring, and

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Josephine McGrail: honestly, like, from my side and on behalf of the universe, your book is so needed, and I'm so grateful, that you decided to make time

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Josephine McGrail: you know, to get Saturn on your side, and to utilize that powerful energy of time and of anger, utilizing it, it's a potent energy of creation. You know, so it's absolutely amazing. I want to ask you as well,

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Josephine McGrail: Because again, I'm having a little look at time! Knock, knock!

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Josephine McGrail: If you had just one or two, sort of, soul messages for humanity, I always ask people this on the podcast, so, you know, I do want to offer this amazing opportunity to you as well, Angie. When you look back over your life.

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Josephine McGrail: With the wisdom that you sit in now, with all the times where you said yes to something.

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Josephine McGrail: With all the times where you said no, with all the times that people… where you spoke up, but no one listened, or they didn't really get it.

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Josephine McGrail: With everything that has led you into the amazing human being that you always were, but also that sits here in front of me now, what would be one or two sole messages for humanity?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: If I center it around the book, I feel that the collective spirit of…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Listening to what your anger's telling you, where it's coming from, and what you can do about it is so important right now.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: We… it's a difficult…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: It's a difficult conversation to have, because when we look at what people who are, advocates, people who are standing up for their rights, people who are doing this, and…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: you know, It's not ending well for them, they're still being overlooked, they're still being marginalized.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: You can lose, you know, life is at stake, etc.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: It feels…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: this has to be handled with care and sensitivity, but I still believe that if you look at history, and when there's been transformation and restoration, it's because the collective mass has come together

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: and looked at what can we do back to, what do I want to have happen, and how can I make that happen?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So it really is a moment in time to say, please lean into that, and please take that route.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: What are we without that?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: That… that's, for me, really important. And then, I think, secondly, You know.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Is we said, you're here for a very short time.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: It's really important that you are able to

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Say your piece, be heard, be listened, but at the same time, listen to others.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Because…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: you know, just sort of jumping out the box and calling things out and doing all these things are great, but other people have very many different ways of communicating and different needs, so you mentioned tone of voice. I'm going off in a tangent a little bit now, but, you know, tone of voice, people can get offended by tone of voice, but what are they seeing and hearing, and what are their assumptions about that?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: So if we… if we want to be really good at investigating…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: our anger, not managing it. We also have to consider Consider difference, and consider…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: translation, like, how do we… how can we translate the human voice… the human communication pathways, if you will? So, yeah, they're the two things for me.

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Josephine McGrail: Absolutely love it, and I can't wait to read your amazing book. How can, obviously, we will share links in the show notes, but otherwise, I know that you also have your book out in physical shops, right? Where can people find your beautiful book, Angie?

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Yeah, I must give you the link. So, it's available online from all of the major… the book, stock is so that you could be…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: if you're… if you're in the UK, that could be Waterstones, or Browns. If you're in the US, that's Walmart.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: There's Book.org, which is brilliant, supporting local independent books. Then Amazon, of course. In person, you can get it in London from, Daunt in Marleybone, and Hatchards in Piccadilly.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: It's… it's… it's available at all the major…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: book shops online, and then the in-person pieces. And the in-person pieces will grow.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: The book was published by an independent publisher, so it takes time for it to land physically on the shelves, but you can certainly buy it online. So I have lots of friends and colleagues and clients in the US, and they are able to get their hands on it now. It's…

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Amazon is available Amazon Singapore, so you can get it in Southeast Asia, Amazon here, UK, Amazon US. So yeah, please, please, please buy it and spread the word, is, is, is the piece.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Buy it, read it, enjoy it, and spread the word is something… is the call to action.

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Josephine McGrail: Absolutely, and I think, actually, that summarizes our whole, you know, our whole conversation here today, and also your book, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: life calls on you to move you. And I also think, you know, as you said, anger is a signal.

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Josephine McGrail: Anger comes to move you. Let yourself be moved somehow, and of course, we use our good mind, and we try and make the best judgment we can so that we are not intentionally hurting others or ourselves in the process, but that it's an action. So, I love your call to action here. Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Angie, I could spend all day with you. I look so much forward to reading your book, thank you so much for being here.

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Angie Alderman, AC, ISCP, BACP: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Thank you.