#62 Unfolding Your Authentic Voice with Dee Lewis-Clay

"If you make a mistake on stage, just do it twice-then it sounds intentional." 

From humble East End beginnings to recording global hits and massive cinema soundtracks (Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, Pirates of the Caribbean), legendary vocalist Dee Lewis-Clay has lived a life completely illuminated by music. In this warm, beautifully uplifting, and deeply honest episode, she joins Josephine to pull back the curtain on the glamour and talk about the raw, everyday wisdom that keeps us human. 

Step into the vibrational circle as they explore the magic of human connection, divine alignments (hello, Libra rising energy!), and navigating creative dry spells. Dee opens up about her powerful current chapters: honoring her late sister Linda Lewis’s musical legacy through grief, finding deep nourishment in silence, and her exciting heart-centered mission to help everyday people release, play with, and heal their authentic voices. 

This conversation is pure medicine for the soul-a gentle, grounded reminder that you don’t need a flawless range to create a masterpiece, you just have to bring your whole heart to the stage of life. 

Go see her at the V&A East London Museum exhibition where she is currently featured in The Music is Black (on until Jan 2027)

Connect with Dee on Instagram here: @deelewisclay_official

For your opportunity to win a LIVE coaching call with Josephine submit your 5star reviews on Spotify and Apple Music and send screen shots to josephinemcgrail@icloud.com

Winners are announced on the 1st of every month

Transcript

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Josephine McGrail: Hello, hello! This is so exciting! I am finally sitting down with my gorgeous newfound friend, Louis Clay. I am gonna read up a shortened version of your incredible, amazing bio. I really wish I had time to read the whole thing, because I was… honestly, I was so impressed. I was so impressed, I could barely sleep, I was like, oh my god, we've got the deal!

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Josephine McGrail: Coming in! So anyway, here we go, so…

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Josephine McGrail: Your career is truly legendary, spanning from global pop hits to the biggest soundtracks in cinema. Starting in London, Dee became a go-to backing vocalist for massive hits like Peter Gabriel's Sledgehammer, Billy Ocean's When the Going Gets Tough, and Swing Out Sisters' Breakout.

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Josephine McGrail: She was a featured voice on the iconic Stock Icon Waterman hits, including Kylie Minogue's I Should Be So Lucky, and Rick Ashley's Never Gonna Give You Up, among many others. After moving to Los Angeles, she became a staple in film scoring, working with legends like Hansimmer and John Powell.

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Josephine McGrail: And you'll likely have heard her voice in The Last Samurai, Pirates of the Caribbean, Rio, How to Train Your Dragon, and Blank Panther, Wakanda Forever.

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Josephine McGrail: But beyond the mic, D doesn't just sing.

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Josephine McGrail: She composes, writes screenplays, and coaches talent like Keira Knightley on vocal performance.

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Josephine McGrail: She's currently featured in the V&A East Museum's The Music is Black exhibition, which honors British artists' contributions to music over the last century. And I also want to add, and I know you recently…

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Josephine McGrail: I know you do so much. You've recently also been singing your late sister's song, right? So…

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deelewisclay: Yes, my… so my elder sister, Linda Lewis, who was an amazing artist,

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deelewisclay: And I'm very thankful we still get to listen to her beautiful voice speaking and singing. We have recently been doing some gigs, myself, my other sister, I'm one of six, so I'm number 5, so my sibling, who is number of…

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deelewisclay: four, I guess, the one before me, her and my only youngest living, my brother, my big brother who's playing guitar, my sister Linda's first and favorite, her words, husband, playing guitar as well, and her old drummer. It's just a beautiful family, gorgeous experience, it just lifts my heart, and we just had this idea, really born out of grief, actually, because what do you do with it, and what do you do with all of these feelings that

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deelewisclay: you're having, oh, I know, let's…

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deelewisclay: let's just celebrate her through her music. So, we've done these intimate little shows, and people loved them, and the last one we did, we did a little Q&A, and we talked about some of our family stories and stuff, and it was just so… just the best, just to look around and see my siblings, and be singing Linda's music, and…

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deelewisclay: I look the most like her as well, so people are often saying, oh my god, I can actually hear her and you, I can see her through you, so it's… you know, I do actually feel like… I mean, I feel like she's alongside me a lot of the time, not just on stage, but it is…

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deelewisclay: There's something about, like, music and frequency and connection that just transports you to, like, something out of this world.

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Josephine McGrail: 100%, 100%.

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Josephine McGrail: And before we… yeah, thank you so much for sharing all of this, and I was just sitting here thinking… I was just sitting here thinking, what a channel you are. You really are. But, let's… let's bring in the listeners, so it's not just me going, oh, I love Dee! So, Dee, you and I met, I can tell you the exact date that we met. We met on the 6th of November, 2025, when I was running the…

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Josephine McGrail: event for Soho House in London, in UK.

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deelewisclay: Alright.

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Josephine McGrail: I feel like you came in a little late, and I think you were wearing some very cool outfits with some cool glasses, and I was like, oh, there she is! Come and sit here! And I pointed to a little point in front of me, and you sat next to one of my best friends, Leanne Muskel. And then, after that, you know, after that event, Leanne was like, you gotta speak to Dee! Dee is amazing! And then, you know, little did I know, next thing you know, you're in my heart.

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Josephine McGrail: we're having tea, it's all amazing, and although I haven't heard, you know, I don't know your whole life story, but I know your energy.

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Josephine McGrail: And I love everything about your energy, and now having a little bit of your background through the bio, I can't wait to take listeners with me on this journey through the window into you. So, my love, welcome, welcome. Dee, can I just ask you, can you take us back in time a little bit? Because I always do this.

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Josephine McGrail: Will you tell us, you know, now we know you're one of six, but will you tell us a little bit about how did you start out in life? Sort of, where were you born, and what kind of family system, structure, belief system, what kind of situation, where did you land on planet Earth?

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deelewisclay: really interesting question, and it's something I've been thinking a lot about recently, because of doing Linda's music, and with my family, too. So I was born in East London, in Custom House, before it was Fabulous Docklands, when it was old school Docklands, and

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deelewisclay: yeah, as I say, number 5 child of 6, so very busy household. My oldest, Linda, had pretty much already left home by the time I was born, and she consequently

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deelewisclay: started a career as a singer-songwriter, and so from the very… I mean, I want to say I was maybe…

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deelewisclay: 5 or 6, 7, possibly, when she became sort of famous, so to speak. So, our very humble East End, working-class, mixed-race family, you know, full house kind of life, was…

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deelewisclay: kind of, you know, elevated, or the possibility of what life could look like other than just your immediate surroundings became a very real thing. And it's, you know, obviously I didn't realize that as a child, because as a child, you just accept whatever is, you know, there. But…

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deelewisclay: when I look back, I feel like there was a moment when it was very apparent that

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deelewisclay: there was this magical quest to be sought in life through music, through Linda, my sister, and…

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deelewisclay: You just threw… my mum was a real kind of powerhouse. She used to run pubs, where she had all kinds of jobs, but from when I was about 10, 11, she used to run pubs.

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deelewisclay: In the East End originally, and then all over London. So I moved all around London, changed schools so many times.

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deelewisclay: But the constant, constant kind of glue was at this family connection. I mean, we grew up that we had a music room, we would sing, we would dance, just for joy. I mean, we'd gather, you know, it doesn't cost any money to just sit in a room and sing, so we didn't re… you know, we come from very humble beginnings, so…

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deelewisclay: It was like this… Very stable foundation of family against the backdrop of All of, like, the…

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deelewisclay: in my sort of memory, late 70s, early 80s sort of music stuff that was like, oh, I'm part of that, oh, I'm in a room with these famous people, and my friends at school would say, could you sing one of Linda's songs on the porch? And, you know, and I'd be like, sure, let's put on a show. So, that's what I come from, yeah. And I've… I started singing professionally at the age of 17.

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deelewisclay: before I even left school, actually, I was halfway through my A-levels, and I went on tour with my sister Linda, doing back and focus with her and my other older sister.

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deelewisclay: And, I was studying history and English literature and theater studies, and there was a lot of reading, and so my head of six forms just said, I think you've already started your career, you're probably not going to catch up on this, so…

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deelewisclay: I just went from there. And actually, the first paid session, recording session I did as a backing vocalist.

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deelewisclay: was a number one record. It was a song called High Energy.

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deelewisclay: by Evelyn Thomas, so it was, oh, you can sing and get paid for this, and have a good time, and people love it, and so I went back a lot, worked with those producers, and, you know, it just all manifested from there, really.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, I absolutely love this, and also because, you know, it's still real life, right? So I'm sure, you know, now you're giving us the really, like, uplifting and inspiring element, but obviously, you know, reading between the lines, it's still real life, and you were still one of six, and, you know…

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Josephine McGrail: And custom house was different, and so… so to have had that… You know, as your backbone.

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Josephine McGrail: that as well, like you said, you know, singing doesn't cost anything. And if, you know, really, like, you know, I always say, like, as human beings.

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Josephine McGrail: Since the beginnings of days, as human beings, we've, like, we've danced, we've taught, you know, we've told stories.

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Josephine McGrail: We've made music, we've sung our hearts out. Like, these are the basics, but not just, you know, like, oh, this is an add-on, this is a reward, this is a fun way to engage.

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Josephine McGrail: it was all of… I think, you know, it's a necessity. Art is a necessity, not just for… for us to thrive, but for us to survive, because exactly like you said in the beginning of our podcast.

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Josephine McGrail: what do you do with all these emotions, right? Like, what do you do with the grief? What do you do in the days where everything feels too much? And so, to have had that space where you naturally would go into the singer room, or you would naturally start a sing-song with your sisters, or just sing by yourself, or you would write, right? Like, I, even though I don't come from a background the same as you, but ever since I was little.

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Josephine McGrail: I was always writing my own songs, and I was writing my own poems, and I was dancing, and for me, it was the same thing, it was an outlet.

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Josephine McGrail: It wasn't just that, oh, look at me, it never was. It was a, ha! There's a lot going on in here!

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deelewisclay: Can you also look at me for a minute? That's what… I mean, coming from a big family, you're like, can I get some attention for a second?

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Josephine McGrail: So true, one of six, and you were number 5!

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deelewisclay: Yes, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Can I ask, were all six of you musical, and were you all part of this, or were there some that were like, okay, we'll do it at home, but then that's kind of where it ends?

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deelewisclay: No, so… so Linda was the eldest, she was, you know, very musical, and she kind of kicked off… kicked it all off, I guess. And then my next sister down, Patsy, is not musical at all.

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deelewisclay: She has many other talents, obviously, but not musical at all. She loves music, but she also started her family really young. She had her first child when she was 17, her second when she was 19.

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deelewisclay: So, she took a very different path from Linda, and they are very close in age. They're, like, 18 months apart. So, you know, Linda was doing this, and Patsy was doing this, and I've been an auntie since I was 2, so my nephews are kind of like my brothers, you know, because we all used to grow up, play together.

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deelewisclay: But it was, yeah, I mean, and then…

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deelewisclay: Keith, my other… the next one down is hard to remember, the order, even for me. So he, used to play a guitar in the band that he was in, and then he went on to be an electrician, and he had family, kids, what have you, has grandkids now, too.

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deelewisclay: But he's in our band. He picked up the guitar again, and he used to play it over the years, but he picked it up and really started to practice when… just after Linda passed. Again, I think it was that way to sort of connect with her…

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deelewisclay: in a way that's not using language as such, like spoken language, but just, like, energy, just vibration. So, consequently, he's managed to get quite good at it now, so he's, yeah, he's very much an asset to our band. And then Shirley is a professional singer.

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deelewisclay: I am a professional singer, and my younger brother was for a while. He's currently a social worker, and he's amazing, he still has a beautiful voice,

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deelewisclay: And he's currently living in Melbourne, but he's moving back next year, so that will be nice.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, fantastic! Okay, so now we're all up to date. So you, at 17, I think you said you had your first paid singing gig. So your first paid singing gig, it turned out to be a number one hit, right?

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deelewisclay: And I probably got… I think I remember what I got paid, but it's, you know… and it was a tiny, tiny… but it was just this fat that you got paid. It was like, what? Yeah, great, I'm in, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: I love it! And then what happened? Where did you go next, D?

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deelewisclay: So, so…

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deelewisclay: they were producer-writers that had written this song, and, it was a studio called Trident Studios, which, has kind of borne a lot of amazing music over the years. Queen recorded there, Bowie, you know, everyone has been there. It's an old, established studio, which I think is still there in some format, but…

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deelewisclay: Definitely not like it was.

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deelewisclay: So, I just, you know, they liked what I did, I was with my sister, so we became, like, the go-to people, and then…

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deelewisclay: you know, then someone else hears that, or someone writes something else, and they ask it, so it just kind of word of mouth spreads from there. And then, we signed a record deal

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deelewisclay: with a small label called Riva, with my sisters and I, and we did

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deelewisclay: not… maybe an album's worth, I don't know. The album never came up. We had a few singles out. That was interesting, being…

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deelewisclay: I love my sister's deal, I love all my family, but being in a band with them was like… I was just like, I don't know if I can do this. So I left and I signed a solo deal with Phonogram. One of the producers I used to work with doing back in vocals, he asked me if I would get involved in a solo project, and so that was my first solo deal.

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deelewisclay: And then went on from there, and I did solo stuff for a while, but I missed doing Back In Focus, so I'd always dip in, and some of the people were, like, became my friends, so Swing Out Sister, for example.

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deelewisclay: Shirley and I sang on their first album, which included their big hit, Breakout.

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deelewisclay: So I went on to work with them quite a lot, and tour with them. I just saw them yesterday, actually, because they're still very much dear friends of mine. So, you become, like, this sense of another family, you know, in music, through music, but some of these relationships go on, so I would

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deelewisclay: tour with them, I opened up for them when I started to write my own songs, and I was on tour with them, and they said, we're in Japan, they went, well, just get out there and open up for us. I was like, are you kidding? What? With my guitar, I just started playing guitar.

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deelewisclay: really av… I mean, less than average, I would say, but, you know, there's a lot you can do with two chords in the truth, I'm telling you. Or three chords, maybe. And so, yeah, so I did that, and I was nervous as hell, but I did it, you know, and again, all these things, it's like this…

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deelewisclay: connecting to things that lead you to something else, and yeah, certainly here I am, all these years later, still doing it. Moved into film, obviously, when I moved to LA.

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Josephine McGrail: Can I just pause you for a second, sweetheart? So, when did you decide… what kind of timeline are we in when you decide to move to LA? And was this because lots of opportunities were coming your way, or was it also, like, you wanted to try something different? Like, what was the main… or was it something personal in your personal life? What was the main pull towards LA?

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deelewisclay: I didn't want to move to LA, actually. I'd spent a lot of time in LA over the years when I was signed to Warner's, and actually even signed to Phonogram.

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deelewisclay: Went out there, I wrote with some very big songwriters, shot a few videos out there, recorded some stuff.

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deelewisclay: And I never felt like it was somewhere that I really wanted to spend time, but I'd…

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deelewisclay: Just had a child, so this was in 2002,

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deelewisclay: And I'd been touring with Jumeirah Choir before, so I'd worked with Jumeirah Choir Recording, which was amazing, loved it, lovely experience, loved the music.

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deelewisclay: And, I'd gone on tour, and they'd never taken any singers on tour before, so I'd gone on tour, and I'd got a couple of friends of mine who were singers in to do it, so it was a, you know, beautiful experience. And I found out I was pregnant.

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deelewisclay: when I was in New York doing a showcase with America Cry for their big album launch, so this was…

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deelewisclay: I left New York, actually, again, because there's so many stories, but I left New York on the morning of 9-11.

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deelewisclay: And only… I only came home that morning and made it home because I'd got on an early flight because I was pregnant, and I thought, there's no point staying, hanging around in New York, I can't party, I can't drink, whatever, so I'm just gonna come home.

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deelewisclay: And that was the last flight that made it out of New York, that made it to its destination.

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deelewisclay: And we didn't know until we were just about to land in London, and they made this announcement, but I've gone off track because I forgot what you asked me now. Oh, so why did I move to LA? Yeah, okay, so…

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deelewisclay: Anyway, all that happens. We go back on tour, you know, the world, the craziness that it is,

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deelewisclay: We go back on tour, we're in Australia. I now have a few-month-old daughter, so this would have been, I don't know, sometime in 2002.

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deelewisclay: And, obviously as far away from England as you can get, Australia, and we're…

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deelewisclay: everything's great, the band are great, you know, it sounds great, we have catering, we're staying in beautiful hotels, I love the music, we're doing these amazing gigs, and I'm just weeping on the phone because I miss my baby, you know, I just underestimated how that would feel. So I kind of said, you know, if

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deelewisclay: this is as good as touring gets. I feel like I'm done with touring. So I came back home, and on the back of that, my now-husband, my partner at the time.

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deelewisclay: wanted to move to LA, and he said.

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deelewisclay: oh, well, if you don't want to do it anymore, why don't we go? And I said, sure, we can give it 6 months or a year. So that's really how I ended up there, and then I stayed there for 15 and a half years.

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deelewisclay: Not one to give up on something, so I kind of went there reluctantly, but, you know, the first year, the first year and a half was hard, because it wasn't where I came from, and I'm not used to having family without my family around. Babies, you know, we used to share the experience, so…

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deelewisclay: So that was, yeah, a bit of a leap, but I did get into singing on film scores, which I'd never done before, and it gave me a whole new…

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deelewisclay: insight and connection to my voice, and what you can do with your voice that isn't just in a kind of commercial, structured song format. You know, you can emote feeling, you can, you know, create this sense of storytelling, you know, so it just…

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deelewisclay: kind of blew my mind, and again, like, a whole new chapter. I'd been singing for years at that point, I mean, you know, a couple of decades, and then I'm having this whole new…

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deelewisclay: chapter in my life through the same instrument, but in a very, very different way. So…

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deelewisclay: you know, I started to have these very sort of primal connections to, oh, when I do these, you know, very heartfelt, kind of non, non-verbal, hardly any words, usually just kind of sounds, really. I call it emotional wailing, but, you know, to kind of tell part of the story, and again, it was like.

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deelewisclay: Wow, there's all this to discover.

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deelewisclay: So, and some of the things that I've shared with you about where that's kind of led me in…

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deelewisclay: you know, how do I take this forward into, like.

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deelewisclay: another chapter, you know, life never really stays still, thankfully. I feel like there's always room to blossom and grow and be re-interested in yourself.

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deelewisclay: And, other aspects of yourself that maybe have been untapped, or you haven't realized they're there even, and see how far I can take that. So…

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Josephine McGrail: I really… I really love all of this, and I think something that would be really interesting for… for myself, and for listeners to hear as well, specifically about you, Dee, is that I think quite often, because obviously I also come from an autistic background myself, and it's… I think a lot of the time, you know, some of my clients, friends, family members, etc, it can feel a little bit like, well.

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Josephine McGrail: you're already living your purpose, and you're already expressing yourself, right? And then I'm always there going, yeah, but that's one aspect of me, right? It's not all aspects. And so, you know, obviously, a huge part of the way that you express yourself, of course, it is through your voice, and it is through your work, but there's so much more to you, right? Because we're ever-changing beings in an ever-changing world, and so I think a question would be.

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Josephine McGrail: So, you know, what are… do you have other avenues where you feel… I guess my question is…

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Josephine McGrail: is singing… I'm sure it's your utmost love, but do you have other avenues as well? Obviously for the writing as well, but is there… do you have other ways as well that isn't sound or word? Because even though you're writing, it's not a sound, it's an inner sound in your mind, right? Is there something that isn't sound-related, where you're still ex… like, you feel a similar, or perhaps just another go-to? Does that make sense? Another way of expressing yourself? I just think

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Josephine McGrail: That's an interesting question.

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deelewisclay: Well, I… you know, silence. Like, the literal opposite of silence.

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deelewisclay: You know, space, like, space to actually… especially coming from this sort of very commercial, sort of, nail-the-chorus type of world,

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deelewisclay: To be able to step back from that, and…

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deelewisclay: have the space, and born out of that desire to tell a story other than through music, I started to write screenplays. I mean, I had no idea even what it was gonna be, but, I'd met someone, I can't remember who it was, but they said, oh, there's this…

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deelewisclay: Screen wri… well, no, no, not even screenwriter, like, writing, kind of.

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deelewisclay: gathering of people while I was in LA, and I said, sure, I'll go, you know, because why not?

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deelewisclay: And through that, I thought, you know, I feel like I've got this story I want to tell. And it always seems to come… most of my stories come back to being some version of, like, someone's perspective, but us looking at it from another perspective, because that's somehow constantly interesting to me. Maybe from being…

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deelewisclay: Entering into a family where all of these

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deelewisclay: frequencies were already taken up, all of these energies, and it's like, oh, how do I… where's mine? You know, again, all subconscious, but how do I kind of slide into this soundscape? You know, what's my note in this chord?

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deelewisclay: So I started to write Stories, you know, like, that ended up becoming, sort of, screenplays, and then…

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deelewisclay: some… some I finished, some I didn't finish. Like, the discipline of finishing things is a little trickier for me. But, but it was just this whole other…

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deelewisclay: A way to relate to…

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deelewisclay: creative ideas in your head, without using my voice in the sense of singing, but using my voice in the sense of where my ideas land, and how you structure a sentence, and the voice of the character you might be

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deelewisclay: talking about and trying to lay this arc of a story out as well. So yes, I feel like there's something in there that I would like to take forth.

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deelewisclay: from that. It's probably more on a kind of…

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deelewisclay: I hate to use this word, because I feel it's so overused, but, like, healing, kind of… energetically healing…

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deelewisclay: Perspective, if that makes sense.

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Josephine McGrail: Absolutely, and I also think you touched upon something that I was sitting here kind of dying to ask you, because it's like…

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Josephine McGrail: when we look at you from the outside perspective, right, it's like, wow, you know, Dee, you're so successful, you know, your first paid job, you were 17, and it was, you know, kind of, you were living your dream, and you got paid, and it became a number one, and you know, and because you had your sister, and of course, you can't just roll on from her success, but of course, you were still born in a family, and thankfully.

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Josephine McGrail: it was supportive of your desire to be part of that singing note, right? But I think, like, exactly like you said, that thing of going.

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Josephine McGrail: well, who am I? Because one thing is to be incredibly talented at something, to work hard at something, and then to also be cherished and celebrated and able to do it for a living, but it's still… and again, as a performer, but again, listeners out there, even if you don't see yourself as a performer, you are… we are all performers on the stage of life, right? We all have these roles that we take on, right?

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Josephine McGrail: And I think, especially sometimes as an artist or as a performer, it can feel difficult to be like, well, who am I? You know, that thing, like you said, what is my voice, right? Beyond… even though you were writing yourself and you were expressing yourself in all these different ways, but also because, you know, you mentioned in the words of, like.

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Josephine McGrail: I wanted to do something that wasn't commercial, or even something that people might not buy straight away, right? But it's just because I can't not do it, right? What are some of… so, I love this thing how you said, well, silence is one of them. You know, I make it so beautiful.

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Josephine McGrail: It's that thing, like, I, you know, obviously I love music, and I talk all day long, and I come home some days, and I'm like, huh.

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Josephine McGrail: I feel like in a podcast now, we're both like, should we take a moment? But it's so important, right? There's, you know, there's so much energy and nourishment and potential in the game.

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deelewisclay: Yes, and also, like you said, you know, to your point, it's like, not everything

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deelewisclay: in life, so not everything in my life is fabulous, you know, don't get me wrong, you know, I'm talking about these kind of key markers that led to something else, and yes, you know, if you want to, like, remember how fabulous you are, write down, like, a CV of yourself, because you'll only pull out the good bits, and when you read them all together, it's like, wow, actually, I have done a lot, you know, like, props to me, you know, but…

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deelewisclay: That whole imposter… I've never met… A successful person, or…

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deelewisclay: Any creative person, for sure, that…

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deelewisclay: doesn't have imposter syndrome, or hasn't had it at some point, you know, whether it's, like, to the degree where it freezes you, or it's, like, it's just a constant little buddy, you know? So…

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deelewisclay: you have to have a word with it. I mean, I do, you know, sometimes I'm in situations, and not even that long ago, you know, like, even in more recent times, you know, if you challenge yourself, you find yourself in these situations, you're thinking.

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deelewisclay: oh, God, at some point they're gonna find out about me, that I'm actually… you know, it still goes through your mind, but I… if you have a whole history of having felt that, you've got some resources to draw from, because, oh yeah, I've been there, I know, it's okay, it will work out, or it won't, but it will go off on a different tangent, and it will, generally speaking, all be okay.

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deelewisclay: And, yeah.

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deelewisclay: But that's…

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Josephine McGrail: Love that, and thank you so much for sharing that, because again, that's just…

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Josephine McGrail: And I think it's, you know, those vulnerable aspects, it's… that's the thing that so many people don't speak about, right? And I think it's just so important for everyone to hear, because it's, you know, it happens to everyone. Like, no one goes through life without doubting or second-guessing, or did I just accidentally end up in this position? Did I make a mistake?

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deelewisclay: But just do it twice, and then it becomes a real thing that you intentionally did.

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deelewisclay: That's what my sister Linda always used to say. If you make a mistake on stage, just do it twice. And then it sounds intentional. Oh, now, when you come to see me play, you're gonna know!

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Josephine McGrail: But I want to ask again, so there's this thing, so you were here in the UK, and then your now-husband was like, oh, why don't we move to LA? And I'm sure you must have really thought about that, and I also love how you were like, we'll do a 6-month trial, so there was, like, a boundary. They were like, I'll go, but we'll give it the 6 months.

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Josephine McGrail: Was it that… what kind of, like, pivoted you to, okay, you know what, let's do it? Was it that he was so interested in it? Was it his career? What was really, you know, what was the reason for why you were like, okay, we'll give it a go?

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deelewisclay: Well, I never felt that it was gonna be for that long. I mean, I didn't have an ending to it, but I'm… but I was… so the first year was tricky. I was really like, okay, I'd left this very busy, working singer life, and then I was…

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deelewisclay: here with a baby, and, you know, and then this whole having to connect with people, I never did any kind of mummy group, so I… the first… the only ones I ever did were there, so, you know, so I'm in, like, these Malibu…

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deelewisclay: groups, and it was just so surreal when you think about it, but, you know, I love it. I love the seeking aspect of life, and so I just felt like, look, I'm gonna just embrace this for however long it is, and I don't know how long it's gonna be, but for however long I'm here.

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deelewisclay: I'm gonna embrace it. And it just shifted, and I did. I embraced it. I embraced the, you know, the nature of life in LA, which is very different from London.

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deelewisclay: made some new friends, had some old friends that I knew from here, actually, a guy who was signed to EastWest when I was signed there, an amazing Brazilian guitarist, he's now a

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deelewisclay: big composer, actually, called Haytor. He and his wife had moved out there, and I knew him because we'd recorded together, we'd written a song together here, so they were sort of instant friends, you know, and they were responsible for us ending up living in the Palisades, too, because

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deelewisclay: they said, oh, come to the market, and come and see the beautiful farmer's market, and was like, oh, this is so charming, and open houses, which I was like, really? People just walk in your houses? I don't know if anybody knows what they are, but basically, people put their house up for sale, but you have these open days where they have flags outside, so you can just go in and walk around people's houses, you know, with a view to buying them, obviously, but…

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deelewisclay: So we did that, we found this tiny little house, and it had a studio in the back, and, you know, and we ended up

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deelewisclay: buying that house, and so it's, you know, life just sort of moves on, and that was part of the embracing. It's like, you know, nothing is forever. Even if you're finding schools for your kid, buying a house, working, you know, buying furniture, it's not necessarily forever, you know, and consequently, 15 and a half years later.

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deelewisclay: decided to move back to London, because… Oh, for many reasons, but…

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deelewisclay: Yeah, it's home, and my family are here, and sometimes the world gets a little crazy and you need to come home.

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Josephine McGrail: Absolutely, and you know what I really love about you is that… I mean, I love many things about you, gorgeous tea, but what I really love is this thing of, like, you know, your ability to kind of just jump on board. Like, wherever life is, is opening up a door, as long as it feels…

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Josephine McGrail: aligned, that you're just in there for the adventure. And of course, I'm sure there's been, you know, not just fun adventures, but also difficult adventures, like, no one goes through life without that, but I really love, like, the way you come across is always this kind of, like.

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Josephine McGrail: will this thing happen, and why not? We'll give it 6 months. The next thing you know, you're like, well, we do have friends here, and I really loved it, and like you said.

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Josephine McGrail: absolutely nothing in life is forever. And I also think, again.

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Josephine McGrail: you know, as human beings, we always, we have this narrative, right? Our brain is always like, well, let's just nail it down, this is how it is. You know, even when we don't talk like this, it's like, when we love someone, we're like, let… you know, part of us is like, it must be forever, whether it's a dog, our home, the songs that we sing, whatever it is, right? We're like, oh, I love it, let me attach myself to it, and don't ever, don't ever go away, right?

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Josephine McGrail: And yet, Of course, everything in life is always changing, is always moving, right? And so to embrace that.

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Josephine McGrail: you know, the impermanence of life is the most important things to try and embrace, and yet the most difficult one. And the way you share about your life.

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Josephine McGrail: with… I know you're sharing it quite light-heartedly, but I know there's so much depth below that.

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deelewisclay: Oh, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: life.

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deelewisclay: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: you know, this is a chosen, you're choosing to look at life through this lens, and I think it's absolutely fantastic. And it makes me question.

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Josephine McGrail: What is your star sign? When? Like, what month are you born in?

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deelewisclay: Aries, I'm Aries.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh, that's what you're… because I was sitting here, and I was like, she's a fire sign like myself, but I couldn't work out if you were Sagittarius or Aries, so I love that!

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deelewisclay: I'm Aries, but my rising sign is Libra, which is my opposite sign, so there's this kind of, you know, sense of balance and…

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deelewisclay: from my… I don't know too much about astrology, but I understand that your rising sign is moreover how you present to the world, so I don't necessarily come through as an Aries, maybe, first thing, because, I have this sort of Libra energy as well, so.

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Josephine McGrail: You do indeed. But also, what's really interesting is that almost all of my closest relationships in life, including, you know, my parents, both my parents, my fiance, Leanne as well, almost everyone has Libras that are rising, so it's wild! And Libra is also divine, divine relationships.

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Josephine McGrail: So, you know, so it's through companionship, like, your soul is really here to learn about divine partnerships, whether they be friendship, romantic, you know, through your work. It's always, you know, you are meant, like, there is… we always develop free relationships, right? But especially for you guys, you gorgeous Libra rising people, how wonderful! I love that, Dee.

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deelewisclay: That's kind of how we met. I mean, if I wasn't open to coming to things, I said, oh, that sounds interesting, I'm going to come to that, even though I was late.

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deelewisclay: Because I was late, I ended up, you know, being called by you to come and sit in the front, and that's how I started to talk to Leona and you, and so, again, all of these little threads, it's only when you look back, it's like, oh, how did that come to be? Oh, it's because I just decided to…

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deelewisclay: say yes to something that I found interesting. And, you know, when…

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deelewisclay: younger artists, usually younger artists, or people coming through, you know, ask me about, well, how about this? How do you do this? And I say.

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deelewisclay: some of it is just getting as close as you can to the situation or the feeling that you want to have, you know? Even if it seems really far away, is it a little closer than not doing it? So, that would, you know, that's kind of some advice that I like to impart, but just…

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deelewisclay: you know, because I feel like if you get close to something you want to feel, you'll… some of that will come with you, you know, that's how… that's how vibration works, you know? You're in the vibrational kind of, like, circuit of that.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, yes, can we just have a brief chat about this? I love that, because, you know, it's so true. I always say, whatever it is you want to do.

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Josephine McGrail: You just have to start doing it.

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deelewisclay: And that's rich coming from me. I know it sounds like I've done a lot, but I have so many things that I don't necessarily see through. And again, it's like, where are you actually saying that? That's a bit rich coming from you, but when, you know, in the key moments, that is what I've done, and I will continue to do it, because

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deelewisclay: that interests me. So, but taking it, and taking it, and taking it, that does lead to some version of where you want to be. I truly believe it does.

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Josephine McGrail: It really does, and also because it's this thing of, like, again, because we're multidimensional beings, we have to satisfy the brain, and the brain, in many ways, again, only operates on what it knows to be true. And so, hence why, the same way. So, you know, if people come to me, for instance, they're like, oh, you know, I'm so sad because I want to be a singer, and I'm like, why don't you sing? Like, do you sing at home? Like, please sing now! But you know what?

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Josephine McGrail: That's what I'm saying? It's that thing of, like… because then…

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Josephine McGrail: If you're singing, even just in your home, if you sing daily in your home, it's not a big setup, or you're just walking around, you're singing, well, now your brain registers that you are a person who sings.

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Josephine McGrail: You know? Then, if your brain has accepted, I am a person who sings, it might just be that you're walking down the street, and you're singing, and next thing you know, you're singing with someone else in the street, and my point is.

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Josephine McGrail: We have to work with what the brain will accept as being possible for us.

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Josephine McGrail: As well as working with the energetics of everything. And so, you know, whatever it is, someone who wants to, I don't know, again, be a writer. So I'm like, are you writing? I don't even care about, like, sending it in to publishers and this and that, like, are you writing? Right?

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deelewisclay: Yeah, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: And the same way, you know, like, we have to choose to engage with that which we think will bring us happiness, and then take it from there. I'm so curious, Steve, because I know that one of the things that can be really challenging when you are in love with what you do,

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Josephine McGrail: Relationships, having space for another person in your life. When you were there traveling left, right, and center, over the hills and back, how did this man enter your life, and how did he end up staying? How was there space?

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deelewisclay: Oh, well, I actually met my husband first when I was at Trident Studios back when I was 17. We haven't been together since then, it's not that romantic of a story. But that's when I met him, and he was a T-boy, and I was doing my first session, so,

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deelewisclay: we, you know, I went on to do lots of sessions, became a sort of successful singer, and he went on to be an engineer, and then became a producer, and stuff like that. So, we re-met

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deelewisclay: in… I want to say 2000, I guess? After, you know, having had our own, sort of, careers, and different relationships, and what have you, so…

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deelewisclay: There… I… there's something… it's almost like somebody you went to school with.

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deelewisclay: you know, there's a sort of understanding, there's a bit of family history, and also, you know, his hours are more challenging than mine. You know, I may be away on tour or what have you, but in terms of sort of hours in the studio and rooms with no windows. So, again, there's sort of an understanding of that, and…

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deelewisclay: I have always been super, super independent, and even inside of a relationship, I just can't help it, it's just the way I am. So, I have to be with somebody that understands that, for the most part. I mean, you know, don't get me wrong, we don't always…

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deelewisclay: agree on that, you know, fieriness, bossiness, as one of my sisters calls me, but,

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deelewisclay: Yeah, it's… that's… there's an understanding of

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deelewisclay: there's something else that runs alongside your life apart from your relationship. Or alongside your relationship, should I say, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: I really love that, that's so beautiful, and I, and I think,

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Josephine McGrail: I can really resonate with that. It's that thing of, you know, can you find someone where you both have a mutual respect for each other's way of being and behavior, and that you both need that space? And, yeah, that makes complete sense. Now I understand, because I was like.

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Josephine McGrail: How did he fit in?

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deelewisclay: I know, I know, where's the space? But, it is that kind of thing, honestly, it really is, and I've mostly had relationships with people.

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deelewisclay: that are in the industry, just because they're the people that I meet, you spend time with them, you know,

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deelewisclay: Yeah. They always kind of have some knowledge of it, whether they like it or not is a different thing, but they have an understanding, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Amazing. I want to ask you, Dee, has there ever been a time in your life where… and I don't think this has happened for you, and also, if it has, again, it's not a bad thing, but I think it's an interesting one.

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Josephine McGrail: You know, again, when you love what you do.

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Josephine McGrail: And so, for instance, for me, it's always been movement, right? So it's like, I am the ridiculous woman who will Google, is it safe for me to go and do yoga even though I have 39 degrees temperature? Of course it isn't! But I still so desperately wanted to move that I was like, let me check. And so, I can't imagine that there's been a time, but just in case there has, has ever been a time where

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Josephine McGrail: like, where you knew something wasn't right because you stopped writing, or you stopped singing, or you stopped… like, you felt like there was no inspiration. Has that ever happened to you?

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deelewisclay: odd, yeah, at least once a week. I mean, it's not… that's not new, you know, absolutely.

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deelewisclay: Yeah, I mean, maybe not once a week, but often enough for it not to be part of my history. It's very much part of my present, especially when you're doing things that aren't set… I'm not sort of working for someone else, if I'm doing my own thing, and, you know, there's no sort of schedule set for me to do a certain amount of work in that time.

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deelewisclay: Yeah, it's, a lot, it happens.

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deelewisclay: But I… it's a sort of…

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deelewisclay: A quiet confidence that you know it goes away as well.

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deelewisclay: it doesn't last forever. Like, no… the good, the bad, the ugly, none of these feelings last forever, so it's…

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deelewisclay: You know, just get back on, just like…

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deelewisclay: it's okay, write that day off, stay, you know, under the blanket and watch Netflix. You know, it's okay. I've worked for many, many years. My first job when I was, like, 11, working, you know, like, in the hairdressers, washing hair. So I have no… I have no guilt about, you know, just checking out for a bit and having time off. Not at this point, anyway, in my life, so…

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Josephine McGrail: It's like…

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deelewisclay: it comes back around, and I haven't just… just decided to land the server every day.

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deelewisclay: He's like, oh God, rescue me! I'll send out an SOS.

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Josephine McGrail: You know what, I have a friend, and she put it so perfectly, she's actually an incredible author, she put it so perfectly in another podcast a few weeks ago, and she was like, yeah, it's that thing where you're like.

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Josephine McGrail: from one split second, you're like, oh, I'm just a Matic artist, to like, oh my god, am I unemployed? Like, the shift in, like, in, like, feeling of self just went from, yay to all.

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Josephine McGrail: And I think it's something everyone can so resonate with as well, right? Because it's that thing of, like, also, you come off stage, or you come off two, or you come off whatever, and it's so intense, and it's amazing, and it's, you know, you put all that energy into it, and you're in that room with all these people, and the next thing you… the next minute, you're not in that contract anymore, all those people are gone, all the lights are out, and you're like, oh!

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Josephine McGrail: Huh! Well, who am I now?

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deelewisclay: Huh.

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Josephine McGrail: It's, you know.

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deelewisclay: For people, yeah, because you're very much kind of, like, charged by that whole experience, and then you're, like, just with yourself, you know? It's,

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deelewisclay: Yeah, that's… that's a… for some people, and for a lot of people that I've seen over the years, particularly those people that are hugely successful, it's a really tricky dance to find that balance between

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deelewisclay: You know, having the joy and the, you know, that kind of highly charged sense of adulation and, you know, performance and, expression of yourself and, you know, like, really kind of being so lit up by that.

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deelewisclay: it's hard to come down, you know, it's hard to come down and find normality something that you want to be part of, you know, whatever normal means to you, but I guess it's the everydayness, you know, the brushing your teeth, waking up in the morning, having breakfast, whatever it might be, you know, just normal, normal stuff.

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Josephine McGrail: And, yeah, I think…

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deelewisclay: If we can find a way to…

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deelewisclay: Be okay with that, and not…

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deelewisclay: and not, you know, push against it, and sort of embrace it, really, because it's a lovely thing to have peace in your heart. It, you know, it really is, and it's an amazing thing to have joy and excitement and thrilling, you know, experiences, and fabulous parties and what have you. Gorgeous, gorgeous, enjoy them, but…

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deelewisclay: I'm not sure that… People really enjoy them sometimes when they're caught up in

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deelewisclay: how they sense themselves, and how nervous or worried they… or concerned they might be about whether that's going to last forever, and whether they'll be famous forever, whether they'll be the most fabulous person in the room forever. I mean, no, probably not. And also, why would you want to be?

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deelewisclay: You know, it's, sliced to duck down in the…

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deelewisclay: The back of the stage sometimes.

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Josephine McGrail: 100%.

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deelewisclay: That's why I miss being a backing singer, actually. I really miss doing it, because, it's such a… you're, you know, you're all sharing the same stage, you all have your role to play, and you're creating this harmony, which is… it's nothing better than, like, just singing around harmony.

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deelewisclay: I think that's why I always used to kind of just sneak back into it and be tempted back into doing it, even after I was doing my solo stuff, because I just love that fusion of harmony and being on stage, and not necessarily being the front person, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: Right, and I… because that… that's exactly what I picked up on when you were talking earlier about it, but you were like, oh, I snuck back in, and I was like, this is so interesting, because of course.

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Josephine McGrail: again, as human beings, we need different things, and now knowing that you're rising as Libra, meaning your soul needs and longs and thrives, as long as there's the right kind of partnerships, you need to thrive in a duo, or, like, it doesn't have to be a duo, but, like, in a dynamic with more people, so the fact that even through your, you know, even through your art, that is also something you consciously chose and continue to choose, is really fascinating.

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Josephine McGrail: fascinating to hear.

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deelewisclay: Yeah, it's more like, this is how I choose to live my life, actually. It's… and to weave all of these things into my life. Like, how can I shape my life so much that work bleeds into just what I would go along to anyway? That I am…

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deelewisclay: working alongside people that I'd want to spend the afternoon with anyway, even if we weren't writing or performing or whatever. So, you know, and as much as I can, and obviously that's, like, the aspirational idea, but again, like, I'm trying to do that, you know, I'm…

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deelewisclay: actually quite a responsible person as well, so I'm not someone that, like, you know, fritters everything away, so now I'm forced into the situation where I have to go and scurry around for… you know, I've been sort of somewhat practical, so I can afford to,

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deelewisclay: you know, give what I really want to do some space and time, even if it doesn't bring in any revenue instantly, you know.

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deelewisclay: And that's really important to me. It's important to be able to do that. And again, I try to sort of

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deelewisclay: conduct my life in a way that allows me to do that, and for the most part, I can, you know, sometimes it doesn't feel like that, because nothing stays the same, and nothing's the same forever. But again, like, okay, that was a bit of a down thing, let me pull it back to this, and let's get back on the horse.

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deelewisclay: And I think that comes from my mum. That comes from all of my family, actually. We're very much a kind of…

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deelewisclay: we've taken that East End energy into our, you know, and that real kind of, like, working class, you know, connected family, you know, know where your bread's buttered, like, the important stuff. And I think that's been a very…

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deelewisclay: Important thing for me to be able to dip back into as well, and that thing that's a constant in my life.

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Josephine McGrail: Really love that, and it's also that thing of, like, you know, without the container, without the foundation, with, you know, giving you that stability.

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deelewisclay: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: nothing else can flow. It just… it really can't, you know? It's the…

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Josephine McGrail: I was really, you know, even something… I'll give you a really practical example. So, a few years ago, me and my ex-partner split up, and, you know, the usual, you know, when one thing goes away, everything goes away. So, it was time for me, of course, to, you know, move home and to buy a new flat, and there was, like, lots of these things. Anything that had been a staple, like, an anchor point for me, was, like, like, the tarot, you know, the tower and tarot, it was like, it's tough.

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Josephine McGrail: Time to let go! Even my beloved cat had to die as well. I was like, not even the cat can stay!

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Josephine McGrail: everything must go, right? And,

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Josephine McGrail: Can't really… oh, yes, this is it! And I remember, because normally I,

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Josephine McGrail: I walk around, and I write so much. I'll be on my phone, and I'm writing the thing for my next book, and it's… and it's not like I'm now walking around going like, oh, let me be clever. It's just I have so much in my head that it is… this is such a nice way, so it just comes out.

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Josephine McGrail: But during… during that space where everything was falling apart, and I remember, so I bought this new flat, I couldn't move over there, I had to stay with some friends and have amazing friends, they opened their house, which was beautiful.

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Josephine McGrail: But because I no longer had any sense of stability, I mean, of course I had me.

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Josephine McGrail: But physically, I didn't have that container.

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Josephine McGrail: I realized, I was like, there was nothing coming. There was no… I didn't even think about riding at all. I felt like I had literally… this is not a very nice image, but I felt like I was a desert, and I had just dried up. And it was just this thing of, like, you know…

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Josephine McGrail: That thing of whether the home is a physical place, or, you know, of course it's also the identity we have within a relationship, or within a specific situation, but, you know, when we go through these spaces and places.

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Josephine McGrail: If we don't have that, like you said, you know, that sense of stability, that sense of anchoring, that sense of get practical, root down, these are the values, this is the ethos, this is the moral, this is the family, these are your roots.

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Josephine McGrail: If that's kind of disturbed for a while, and again, also to listeners out there, like, this is just such an important thing, like.

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Josephine McGrail: we need… the foundations have to be in place, and of course, at times, it evolves, it erupts, there's a volcano, it's supposed to be like that.

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Josephine McGrail: But just like you were saying, Dee, like, honoring debt, we go through these different chapters in life, and we can't always be in the summer of life, right? We gotta have a winter. Sometimes we're like Josie in the desert. This is life, and during those times, you may not find yourself your most creative. You might be creative in different ways, like, I found a different place to live, and all that, right? But it's…

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Josephine McGrail: It's in a different way, so, yeah.

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deelewisclay: Yeah, yeah. And again, it's like, the benefit of hindsight is sometimes a good thing to sort of help you along that journey, because if you look back at what would have been perceived at the time as, like, a disaster, a mistake, like, something awful, a loss.

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deelewisclay: Quite often, it…

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deelewisclay: Sort of sparks some other avenue that you don't realize at the time, of course, because you're heartbroken, or you're sad, or you're let down, or whatever it might be, but…

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deelewisclay: You know, with the benefit of hindsight, you can, you know, maybe sort of just be gentle with that

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deelewisclay: aspect of humanity.

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deelewisclay: Of yourself, for your own self. You're like, use yourself as, like, a model for, oh, that's… this can happen, and yet this can happen. And through that actually came this, because if I take it back that far, none of that would have happened if it hadn't been for this so-called, you know, disaster.

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deelewisclay: Yeah, it's.

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Josephine McGrail: I love that, and I love it.

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deelewisclay: History.

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Josephine McGrail: And I love how you make sense of your life like that. I always do the same, and I think it's so powerful. It's so powerful because there's always a choice, right? We can choose to look at anything through the negative lens, through the lens of regret, and we can choose to look at it from an empowered space, right? You know, I think that's really powerful, Dee. Can I ask you, so, with Dee sitting here in front of me now, with your incredible life you've lived so far.

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Josephine McGrail: What are you dreaming of these days? What does D dream of?

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deelewisclay: What am I dreaming of?

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deelewisclay: I think probably doing,

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deelewisclay: I'd like to make an album of something I've never done before, so really a huge departure from stuff I've done before. Somebody just recently sent me some recordings I haven't heard of myself.

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deelewisclay: That I recorded in LA when I was signed to Phonograph, so many years ago.

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deelewisclay: with, two amazing producer-songwriters, Lamont Dozier of Holland Dozier, Holland, Motown, Lamont.

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deelewisclay: And, another guy called Preston Glass, and I've heard these…

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deelewisclay: songs that I did with them that I'd not forgotten about, but I haven't heard them in so long, they're in the far… further reaches of my mind.

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deelewisclay: and I just…

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deelewisclay: it really reminded me of just… oh, God, so the… so many sounds of me, versions of me, are on some kind of recording, whether it's as a backing vocalist, a lead vocalist, on a dance track, on a film score, or whatever it might be. But there's still something that has not been my sort of…

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deelewisclay: story so far, weaved in a musical format, so… so I guess that would be something. Also, my sister Linda, who passed a couple of years ago, asked me if I would, or left me, should I say, with, the huge, wonderful responsibility of finishing her book for her, so…

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deelewisclay: I wasn't able to even really contemplate the idea for some time, but I feel like I have a handle on how to maybe approach that now, and so that's… that's another thing that I would like to…

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deelewisclay: journey a bit further into. I have some sort of outlines for it, but, so we have that, and also a musical, which… I call it a musical because it's kind of very music-set. It's a story…

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deelewisclay: with, yeah, the music to really sort of tell the tale, so I guess, by definition, it is a musical. But again, that's a huge endeavor, and so it's a very scary prospect, but,

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deelewisclay: I've sort of given myself a very loose… not deadline, but, like, end time, I suppose, to complete it by, so… and that's all… I'm about a quarter of the way into that now.

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deelewisclay: So, this one.

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Josephine McGrail: God, Dee, I mean, you are just non-stop, just sounds… I mean…

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deelewisclay: I mean, I don't know, I don't know if anyone's going to want to hear it, but I just, you know, this is kind of the stuff that I… I want to do for me, you know, alongside working. I mean, I still work work for other people, so, it's not to, like, I'm not doing any of that work anymore, I'm just doing this. It's, it's to keep me interested in myself, really, in, like, in life, in…

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deelewisclay: My… to stay connected to my creativity, my imagination, and…

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deelewisclay: To remember it's there, and use it fully. Sometimes, not so other times.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah.

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deelewisclay: Yeah, not to dry up, really.

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deelewisclay: It's not to dry up, to stay…

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Josephine McGrail: Yes, sir.

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deelewisclay: How did that become the desert? Exactly, it made me laugh when you said that. But it is, it's like, that's like, juice, that's like, just keep, you know, even if we have to squeeze it out of ourselves sometimes.

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deelewisclay: It's alright, you know, it's alright.

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Josephine McGrail: I love it! D, is there, what is something, if you don't want, if you don't mind sharing? So you know in those moments, you're like, ugh, you know, so there's lots of, yay, and then there's a, hmm, oh, hmm, oh, I don't know, whatever song you guys, you have…

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deelewisclay: I have no idea about those women.

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Josephine McGrail: I was like, oh no, I don't have any of those! That's not my repertoire, Josie! When you have one of those days.

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Josephine McGrail: do you have… is there a specific sentence in your mind, or is it… is it, you know, is it your love for everything that keeps you going? Like, what is one thing that keeps moving you forward and upwards? Does that make sense?

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deelewisclay: Yeah, it does make sense, yeah. I don't know if there's one thing,

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deelewisclay: one of my sisters used to do this thing, my sister Shirley, where she would laugh every morning. She'd force herself to laugh, and I was like, how can you do that?

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Josephine McGrail: It's so crazy.

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deelewisclay: And she said, no, I'd laugh, and then I'd start laughing at the fact that I was making myself laugh, and then it would actually make me laugh. I haven't… I've tried that a couple of times. I've only ever done it once where I was genuinely laughing at myself trying to laugh. It wasn't… it's not my process, but

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deelewisclay: I think, for me, I like to listen to, like, old philosophers and, like, ancient…

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deelewisclay: gems of… of something that is often so simple and yet so profound. So I like to take it back to a simplicity, actually. It's kind of stripping down a lot of the noise, and…

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deelewisclay: hearing people, like, I used to listen to… when I lived in LA, I used to sometimes walk on the beach in the mornings and, listen to Eckhart Tolle. Just because I love his voice, it makes me laugh. And, I mean, he's obviously saying some amazing stuff, but, it would make me giggle and laugh, and that would make me feel light, and also.

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deelewisclay: what was… what I was getting from what he was saying would be somewhat profound in me, so it would spark other ideas. Haven't done that in a while, maybe I need to resurrect that. But, yeah, I think just hearing interesting people talk

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deelewisclay: sing. With music, it's big… it's…

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deelewisclay: It's a tricky one sometimes. I find myself kind of breaking things down, so I listen to sort of,

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deelewisclay: music that I don't really make, so kind of odd music.

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deelewisclay: And then I can listen to it without, sort of, attaching myself to it, or what I would do, or, like, you know, what I'm hearing, or what have you.

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deelewisclay: I loved it, yeah. Just all of, all of that.

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Josephine McGrail: I love that, and I love that image of you walking down the beach in California, listening to Eckhart Tolle, and then having a laugh at him. Like, you know, like, he says great stuff, and be like, this is profound, but oh my god!

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deelewisclay: I love his voice, it just… it makes me smile, and then it would lead to laughing. So, yeah, if you can try the laughing thing, it really worked for my sister. I don't think she does it anymore, but she's a…

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deelewisclay: very much connected to Happiness person, and, you know, she's a bit of an inspiration to me in that sense. And, you know, all friends, family, people that I know, people that I don't know,

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deelewisclay: You know, there's enough to draw on if you really need it.

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deelewisclay: So especially in this time, I mean, you can find pretty much anything that you need to find to help you. Probably the biggest challenge is, like, getting rid of all the noise in order to find it. I find that's a tricky thing.

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deelewisclay: for me. I'm not a big Instagrammer, I kind of dip into it, and, you know, I,

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deelewisclay: sometimes I do, like, Feast of Feminine thing, but I… I find it, like, I think it's… I mean, I'm gonna sound like such an old woman now, but I didn't realize that's what doom scrolling was. I thought doomscrolling is, like, feeling sad, but continuing to scroll, but doomscrolling is just scrolling, because it leads you to something else, and it kind of becomes doomy, because you've wasted half an hour. I guess that's the doom part of it, but yeah, it's just more, kind of, how can I get through the noise

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deelewisclay: to find the gem.

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deelewisclay: Old philosophers is one of my ways to do that.

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Josephine McGrail: I really love that, and I also love how you set this thing of, I'm actually just looking for the simplicity.

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deelewisclay: Oh, yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, it's the best.

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Josephine McGrail: It's… I quite often, like, you know, bless him, love my partner, but he loves information. It's always like, there's another thing! And, you know, he's got great ideas, great dreams, and the way that he sort of… he's able to kind of process and reflect and digest, and he's just… I feel like he's in a video game, he's just… he's taking it all in, whereas I'm like, can we just keep it all out? You know, I'm like, there's so much in here.

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Josephine McGrail: already. So I really get this thing of being like.

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Josephine McGrail: I just want to simplify everything, and for me, it's always been nature.

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deelewisclay: Oh, nature's an amazing thing. I mean, even these gigs we're doing with my family, they're small venues, and, you know, they're purposely small and purposely acoustic-based, and, you know, we're weaving stories into it, so it really kind of brings you… and those are the kind of gigs that I want to go to now.

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deelewisclay: I really don't enjoy going to large gigs. I mean, sometimes you can't help it, because somebody's playing, and they're playing in a large venue, but…

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deelewisclay: ideally, just being in small, where you can really kind of just get the whole sense of it, and you can… you know, you're part of the whole experience. For me, that's… that's amazing. But nature's an amazing thing. Walking… I go walking in Richmond Park. I just love it, love it. And I live really close to the river here, so I go on river walks.

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deelewisclay: You know, either with friends, without friends, you know, just to connect to that. That's… that is a beautiful thing. I swapped the beach for the river.

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Josephine McGrail: Yeah, right?

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deelewisclay: to get in the water in LA anyway. It's freezing, that water.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, yeah, that's true.

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deelewisclay: It's not the Mediterranean.

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Josephine McGrail: This leads me on to… I remember when you… when you came over for tea.

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Josephine McGrail: you were mentioning something about… and I know it's still, you know, it's, you know, it's still in the making, as the best things are, still becoming, still taking shape. This whole thing about, you know, being in a chapter of your life where you feel a call towards

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Josephine McGrail: you know, doing something along the lines of helping people, whether it's through their own voice, finding their voice, and healing through expressing their soul through sound, through their voice, may not necessarily be full-on, like, singing, but, like, something. Do you want to share a bit with us about that? Because I find it so wonderful and so fascinating.

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deelewisclay: Yeah, well, that's what we're talking about. It's, I mean, again, that sort of simplicity thing, and I think if I reverse engineer my life, my career especially, it's like, what was that thing that created some magic? Oh, I know, it was just getting in a room and singing, and of course, this is in a sort of professional situation, but the…

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deelewisclay: But the underbelly of that is something that

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deelewisclay: anyone can do, but people are very crippled by what their voice sounds like. People that aren't singers are crippled by what their voice sounds like.

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deelewisclay: And I was thinking, well, imagine if you can actually connect people to their voice in a way that makes them uncrippled by that, you know, like, just to embrace their own sound, because…

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deelewisclay: you know, if we all sounded like Aretha Franklin, it would be a boring world, you know? Like, you have your own sound, you bring something to this world, to your life, to your…

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deelewisclay: you know, your resonance. And if you could only just connect in that in a way that allows you the freedom to just get in a room and sing, and it's like… so that's part of what I'm trying to create, is this…

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deelewisclay: formula, I suppose, or a sort of template to be able to place people in it, to connect them to that, and it's really, like, taken it down to the most simple things, but it starts with

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deelewisclay: Finding a tone, finding, a sort of register, even, that you can…

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deelewisclay: sing within that makes you feel free, allows you to feel free, allows you to not get so caught up in it doesn't sound like who I want to sound like, it sounds just like me. It sounds like me, you know.

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deelewisclay: So, yes, I haven't quite figured out

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deelewisclay: how to do that, but it is something that I…

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deelewisclay: am constantly kind of coming around to, and then I'll start to talk to somebody about it, and they are so lit up by the idea that it might be them, that they could benefit from it.

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deelewisclay: And, you know, you don't always realize that when you're… when it's something that comes quite easily to you. You don't realize what… what a challenging step that might be for somebody. It isn't, but it's also, like, this amazing…

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deelewisclay: aspect to… to have in your life. Just this, you know, this thing, this…

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deelewisclay: element of your life that you could just bring in when you need it. Just sing, just sing, just dance, just play, just, you know, these simple things, but, you know, we're in our head, they don't seem so simple, and I get it. I'm not dismissing it as, like, a thing that is insignificant, but…

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deelewisclay: Really, let's break it all down, and let's just…

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deelewisclay: Get to the core, the belly of it, and then just play and enjoy.

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deelewisclay: And I will help you. I'll be your champion in this, and what a gift to be able to connect someone. I love the idea of unfolding myself, unfolding other people, just unfolding a situation. You know, it's what I did as my life for years, you know, showing up to a studio where you don't know anyone, it's like, can you make this song come more alive? Sure, how about this? This is, you know, it's like, I love it, you know, it's a gift that it charges me, as well as.

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deelewisclay: Helping other people, so…

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Josephine McGrail: 100%, and this thing of, I mean, you know, like you said, you know, we all long to belong, but we long to really belong, not just to a group, not just to the world, but to ourself.

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Josephine McGrail: But we don't know, and if we, you know, A, take the time to reflect, who am I beyond all the rest and all the noise, but also, who could I be, right? Because it's allowing ourselves to have that expansion, right? So, you know, one of the best things as kids is that, you know, like, have you ever heard babies? You know, they're constantly playing with their voice, right?

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Josephine McGrail: And their movements, right? Constantly playing with their movements, with their sound, and especially when it's really eerie, weird, you know, disharmonizing something, they're like, and they're loving it! And then somehow, you know, somehow we grow up, and very quickly we're taught and told by well-meaning parents, mentors, etc, oh, you are this, you belong to that group over here, and so we have this kind of sense

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Josephine McGrail: set identity in terms of what we do with our body, how we express ourselves through our voice, but I think this, you know, the aspect of the voice is just so interesting, because it's that same thing of, like.

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Josephine McGrail: You know, most people probably use about 10%, and I'm not even talking about singing, that's just their range, so the way… and you know, I mean, I don't have to tell you this, but just for listeners out there, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: So often, the key, literally, haha, the key, the bridge between…

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Josephine McGrail: what you want and what's holding you back might be… might just be the range of your voice. It could be something as simple as that.

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deelewisclay: Really good, and, you know, and I do sort of see myself as a bit of a… I have that sort of bridge

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deelewisclay: sensibility, you know, how can I connect this to this? And when I've worked with, you know, you mentioned working with, some actors,

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deelewisclay: born out of working with the directors on the score, and they wanted a character voice, but that person wasn't comfortable with their singing aspect of their voice. So, it's just understanding what the director wants from them, and then using the language, and the support, and the, you know, being alongside them to just bring that out of them. It's not… I'm not giving them anything, I'm just helping them get it out of their bodies, and, understanding

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deelewisclay: What that is in terms of…

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deelewisclay: Your voice, your singing voice, in that case, you know.

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Josephine McGrail: 100%. Oh, I'm so excited about Disney, and I will be one of your first clients to sign up to your amazing Heal Your Voice Release, or maybe it's just Release Your Voice, I don't know, express your voice, whatever it is it's gonna be called, I shall be there.

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deelewisclay: I'll let you know.

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Josephine McGrail: Please do, because I'm mindful of time, but there's a question I always ask everyone, and I think this is, you know, that's also why I'm so grateful that you took us on this journey back in time, so we understood about your upbringing, because one thing is to just sit here and be like, wow, well, Dee's amazing, she's an amazing singer, she's beautiful, you have all this energy, but we have to…

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Josephine McGrail: you have to understand why you became who you became, why you chose what you chose. And so, to hear about your upbringing, and the choices you made, and the options you had, and what you decided to try and pursue, and you know, like, to hear all of that has been so beautiful. So, at this point in the podcast, I always ask.

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Josephine McGrail: If you had, like, when you look back over your life, like, all the times you said yes to something, and all the times you said no to something, with all of the high-highs and the low lows and everything in between, if you had just one or two soul messages for humanity.

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Josephine McGrail: What would they be?

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deelewisclay: Oh, jeez, that's a tricky one. Soul messages.

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deelewisclay: Well, something I mentioned earlier, which is, it's borrowed from somebody else, but that there's…

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deelewisclay: It's along the lines of simplicity, but there's a lot of magic in three chords in the truth.

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deelewisclay: And I feel like…

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deelewisclay: don't overthink is what I get from that. You know, like I said, I play guitar, and it's a very, very basic version of guitar, but out of that.

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deelewisclay: I could write whole songs.

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deelewisclay: And whole stories can come through, so, you know, don't underestimate the power of, like.

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deelewisclay: authenticity, even in the most simple format, and I think that we need it probably more than ever, that

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deelewisclay: that genuine… Expression of ourselves, and

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deelewisclay: Yeah, so I… hopefully that came across in the way it felt when it left my head, but it's, yeah, simple, like, don't underestimate the power of simple things.

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Josephine McGrail: Oh my god, that is so profound.

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Josephine McGrail: I really get it. I've felt it. No, it's so beautiful, and I think, you know what, like you said, especially in this day and age, authenticity is everything, and a genuine… a genuine desire for, you know, whatever it is you do, whether it's three chords, or, you know, whether you've got a range of, you know, Franklin, or you're just starting out on your singing journey, whatever it is, like.

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Josephine McGrail: As long as you do it with your whole heart, like you said.

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Josephine McGrail: Just do it with your whole heart. And exactly like you were saying, Dee, because the only one that's stopping us is us.

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Josephine McGrail: You know, and if we stop that expression.

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Josephine McGrail: Your expression, my expression, everyone's expression, like, the only one that can stop and block that, really, is ourself and our own limited beliefs, right?

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Josephine McGrail: And so I found it personally really profound, what you just said, like, don't let the simplicity, you know, make that a thing of, like, you know, oh, I'm not even gonna attempt it because I'm only disadvantaged in that area, whatever it is, right? You know, I really love that. The most simplest things in life can be the most beautiful and the most powerful.

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deelewisclay: Yeah.

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Josephine McGrail: Absolutely. Dee, this has been so wonderful! I could sit here with you all day, and I look so much forward to coming and trying your new, amazing…

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deelewisclay: I've got, like, 700 different versions of a name, but one will land, and it will be the one, and yes, let's do it.

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Josephine McGrail: 100%! Oh, I'm gonna be so looking forward to this. Dee, just stay on the line, and listeners out there, thank you so much for your time today. I will send all of the things about how you can connect with Dee, in the… not the snow, but the show notes, and it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much!