Why Doctors Lie with Dr Ken Berry

Unlock the hidden truths behind the medical curtain as  we converse with Dr. Ken Berry about the often-untold realities healthcare professionals face. Our exchange promises to illuminate the dark corners of medical practices, revealing why some doctors might withhold the full spectrum of information. Prepare to have your understanding of traditional medical teachings challenged, as we dissect the significance of lifestyle and nutrition in preventing and managing chronic diseases. This episode isn't just about what's wrong with the current state of healthcare—it's about forging a new path towards a more empowered and informed approach to personal well-being.

Join us on a journey where we confront the need for a paradigm shift in medical education and practice. As I reflect on my own awakening from conventional pedagogies to embracing the transformative potential of dietary interventions, Dr. Berry and I unravel the complex web of influences—from pharmaceuticals to food industries—that shape healthcare recommendations. We delve into the powerful effects of intermittent fasting on health, discuss the surprising insights radiology offers into the effects of diet on chronic diseases, and question the status quo of our healthcare system.

By the end of our candid conversation, you'll be equipped with a critical lens to evaluate the medical advice you receive and inspired to experiment with lifestyle changes that could redefine your health narrative. We emphasize personal agency in making health decisions and the importance of staying informed about the latest research and dietary interventions. You're invited to become part of a movement that dares to question, learn, and take control of your own health for a future of longevity and vitality.

Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsor (20% off with this link):
https://prolonlife.com/Lufkin

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https://prolonlife.com/Lufkin

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome back to the Health Longevity Secrets Show with your host, dr Robert Lufkin. His soon-to-be-released book titled Lies I Taught in Medical School has been an Amazon bestseller for 13 weeks in a row and the number two bestselling book on longevity, after Peter Atiyah's great book on the subject. If you are enjoying this program, please like, subscribe or leave a review. It will help others to learn about our work. And now please enjoy this week's episode on the subject of why doctors lie with our guest, dr Ken Berry.

Speaker 2: 0:31

Hey everyone, Welcome back to the show. I'm Dr Robert Lufkin. Today we get to have an amazing conversation with my good friend, Dr Ken Berry, where we ask a provocative question why doctors lie. This was a rebroadcast of a discussion that we had about a week ago on Ken's YouTube channel, with over 3 million followers, I think we had almost a quarter million views for the episode, but he has graciously allowed us to rebroadcast it here.

Speaker 2: 1:06

So what we try to do is kind of unravel the longstanding myths in medicine and challenge the status quo of health wisdom. So our conversation strips down the facade surrounding diet, chronic disease management and the one-size-fits-all approach to medical education. We urge an awakening to the profound impact of nutrition, sleep and stress on our well-being. We get to dive deep into the heart of medical training with a frank discussion on the urgent need for a nutrition-centered curriculum and the perils of mismanaged diabetes care. We echo a call to foster curiosity and critical thinking among medical students and this is inspired by the wisdom of Sir William Osler to embrace the reality that our medical knowledge is ever evolving and ever changing. So what's true today may not be true tomorrow, Concluding with a powerful conversation on the misconceptions of insulin use in chronic disease and the limitations of medication and surgery, we underscore the transformative potential of lifestyle interventions. We also compare diagnostic tools such as coronary artery calcium scans and CT angiograms, while discussing the dietary shifts that can reverse chronic conditions and enhance mental clarity.

Speaker 2: 2:36

This episode, as I said, was from a recent podcast from Dr Ken Berry, and I think it's really an impassioned plea for medical professionals and the public to continuously question and update our understanding of health and disease, thereby shaping a future where truth in medical practice prevails. This episode is brought to you by El Nutra, maker of the Prolong Fasting Mimicking Diet. If you'd like to try it, use the link in the show notes for 20% off. And now please enjoy this week's episode.

Speaker 3: 3:19

So you've decided to take charge of your health. You've been doing your own research, you found a way of eating that works for you, and then you go see your doctor and your doctor immediately proceeds to say a bunch of stupid beep and you're like where did that come from? How does that even make sense? Well, in this video we're going to be talking with an expert, a guy who teaches medical students, aka teaches the doctors, and he has made an admission and has a new book. It's very much like my admission from my book, and the title of his book is why I Taught in Medical School. He's the reason. This is the guy that we can blame for our doctor saying all this stupid crap and you going what? So, without further ado, let me introduce to you Dr Robert Lufkin. Doctor, welcome, welcome.

Speaker 2: 4:16

Hey, Ken, it's great to be on the show and I want to say this is the book that inspired me to write my book. Thank you for writing your great book on the topic. I love it.

Speaker 3: 4:28

Thank you and I'm sorry to throw you under the bus, but you and I both are guilty and you and I both have atoned. We've apologized publicly for the foolishness that our early career put in the medical profession. We both apologize for that. I know you. I've seen your apology before and people have seen my apology. So before we get, before we dig into this because we're going to dig into this and we're going to say some stuff that people have probably never heard before and what we say may trigger and offend a few doctors, and you know what Good they need to be offended Tell us a little about yourself and how you came to this epiphany.

Speaker 2: 5:08

Yeah, well, I basically it's interesting I was raised by. My mom was a dietician, so I was immersed in the health food recommendations. We followed all the rules. We ate a low-fat diet. We substituted, got rid of the bad butter with all the saturated fats and replaced it with trans-fat-laden margarine and seed oils and all this stuff. Following what we thought was inspired by her interest in healthcare, I went to medical school and I basically I liked it so much I stayed on and did a residency in radiology and then stayed on at UCLA where I spent decades working as a full professor. I'm still a full professor now at USC, another medical school across town but I love both those institutions. They were great and really formative for me and I basically for a while I was the establishment. I wrote hundreds of peer-reviewed papers. My lab, we did research. My lab received millions of dollars in grants from the federal government, from NIH, from pharmaceutical companies and from device makers. So I'm not a conspiracy theorist or anything. I'm part of the establishment.

Speaker 2: 6:48

But what made me change was, like so many people in this area, I came down with, suddenly out of the blue, with four chronic diseases that were unexpected. But I went to my doctors and they said, um, they said, hey, no problem, we'll prescribe these medicines. And, um, you know, they will take care of not only your disease but your symptoms. And um, you know, they said, you know you could do lifestyle, but it really doesn't work. What you really need to do is do these drugs, and you're going to be on these drugs for the rest of your life. And they told me that the drugs would not only take care of the symptoms, but they would treat the underlying disease as well. Knowing enough about medicine and those chronic diseases, I knew it wasn't going to end well, and I had at the time two daughters who weren't even in elementary school yet.

Speaker 2: 7:44

So, out of self-interest, I began to dive deeply into your book and many other people and, looking at the research, and I began to understand that what I'd been told was incorrect and what I had been teaching. What I'd been told was incorrect and what I had been teaching there were some errors in it, and what some of my colleagues are still teaching there are errors in. And that inspired me to write this book, which is Lies. I Taught in Medical School, where I try to explain those.

Speaker 2: 8:23

And anyway, what happened with me was I did a deep dive. I began to understand things that I didn't appreciate before about nutrition, sleep, diet, exercise, stress and I made some major, major changes in my lifestyle. And, long story short, I went back to my doctors and they couldn't believe it. They thought the labs were in error. They wanted me to retreat my labs. Basically, everything returned to normal. I was off the prescription medicines and I've been doing fine ever since. But at that point I sort of made it my mission to get the word out to as many people as possible and, like you're doing with your excellent work, try and spread that message, because it's you know, people don't need to be sick with these things, and there's a lot that we can do.

Speaker 3: 9:20

Right, and so the book is Lies. I Taught in Medical School, so this guy has a perfect perch with which to see what's going on behind the curtain. What are doctors being taught? Why are they being taught that? So my first question to you right out of the gate, is what is the first lie that you're like? Oh my God, I've been teaching this to medical students for years and it's just not true. What was the very first one you're like oh, I've been teaching these poor kids wrong.

Speaker 2: 9:55

Yeah, I mean at a very basic level, and I just heard this repeated at a lecture, literally a few days ago, at a leading medical school. I won't name their names, but the recommendation was for obesity, which is epidemic proportions. Most adult Americans are either overweight or obese now and it drives all these chronic diseases. But the recommendation for obesity was just to exercise more and eat less, and that a calorie is a calorie. All you need to do is just eat fewer calories, you know right, right.

Speaker 3: 10:38

So basically, semi starve yourself for the rest of your life and exercise more, which is going to actually increase your appetite. That's well shown in the literature. So you're going to do something that's going to increase your appetite, but then you're also going to semi-starve yourself for the literal rest of your life. That was the epiphany that this person said. This is what you need to teach everybody.

Speaker 2: 11:01

Yeah, and that's still the. You know the mainline teachings from the American Dietetic Association, or their new name that they have now but it's still accepted by so many people and I guess that's the reason for the. You know the success of all these companies that are. You know weight loss programs and everything, because they keep having having repeat customers, because that advice clearly doesn't work and you know it's not helping people and it's hurting people if they believe that.

Speaker 3: 11:33

Yeah, I totally agree. Do you think, looking at now, we have Ozempic, we have Mount Jorrell, we have Wegovi. Do you think that this terrible weight loss advice was? Did the pharmaceutical companies just luck into this atmosphere where every doctor and every dietitian is teaching this obvious foolishness that literally doesn't help 88 percent of the population? Or did they play a hand in setting this up three years ago, five, five years ago, 10 years ago, as they were starting to research these drugs? Did they actually put a hand into the training of doctors and dieticians and kind of double down on this? Move more, eat less thing, knowing it doesn't work? What do you think about that?

Speaker 2: 12:21

Yeah, that's a great question and it gets to the heart of what we're facing, and I think, I believe, that no doctor wakes up and wants to hurt people or give them lies, or health professional nurses anybody. Basically, people are good. We want to do the best things, but I think superimposed on that, as you hinted at, there are pernicious financial incentives in our educational institutions. Many of our nutrition programs are funded by food interests and pharmaceutical interests that drive this bad advice and the diseases we have. Even the American Dietetic Association was funded by people with strong ties to a religious organization that had an agenda about red meat and getting people to eat alternative junk foods, which are still being sold today and people still consume in large numbers. So I think it's really it's a big problem and then I think, overlaid on that is the bias that we all have about. We'd rather get a pill than change my behavior. You know, just give me a pill and I don't have to change anything in my life. I'll just take the pill, and that's a factor as well. Sure.

Speaker 3: 13:54

Tell us what topics do you teach in medical school? What lectures do you give, what topics? Yeah, Great.

Speaker 2: 14:02

So I'm in the radiology department, so we teach. You know, I'm not in the nutrition departments but as a radiologist, one of the things about this specialty is we have to look at the coronary arteries on the scans and we can literally see the plaques, we can see the calcification, we can see the narrowing On the Alzheimer's disease patients. We can look at the PET scans. We see the glucose utilization diminished in Alzheimer's patients, you know, and in the cancer patients we literally look at all the tumors.

Speaker 2: 14:35

So, although I'm not primarily involved in teaching nutrition, the things I teach describe nutrition and the drivers of it. I mean diabetes. We're all affected by diabetes, you know, the number one cause of amputation, number one cause of blindness, number one cause of renal failure. We see it throughout the day. So our main teaching is to residents and house staff and doctors, but I also teach medical students as well. And one thing we've just started a new residency program in California, here at a hospital that we've started family medicine, we've started psychiatry transitional year and hopefully in the spring we're going to start radiology. And this is an ACGME American College of Graduate Medical Education credited residency where we're going to be teaching residents with this new philosophy about health, metabolism, diet, and hopefully we'll repeat fewer of the lies that are still being repeated today.

Speaker 3: 15:40

Yes, definitely. I can remember I, unlike most doctors, I actually had a class in nutrition my second year of medical school, I think it was every Tuesday for an hour we had a lecture, and I'll never forget the professor of nutrition. He was a PhD lecturer and he had type 2 diabetes, which he controlled with insulin, and he was from New Zealand and I remember very clearly that he he recommended very highly that we recommend to our patients that they eat whole wheat pasta. That's how he said it and I'm you know, I'm a redneck from Tennessee and I'm like pasta who said that. But he and so he also talked about how he had to be very judicious with his insulin dose because he would get hypoglycemia if he over-injected, and so he, but he was a huge fan of whole wheat pasta, and so this is the guy that was literally teaching the doctors. He had type two diabetes and he, being a nutrition professor, he had the complete globe of knowledge that he could have reversed his type 2 diabetes, but he didn't. He ate whole wheat pasta and injected insulin every single day, and I'm sure he's passed on now. God bless his. God rest his soul. But that was the extent of my nutrition instruction with regards to how you would manage a type 2 diabetic is to give them lots of whole wheat pasta and lots of insulin injections and watch out for hypoglycemia. Now a fun fact for you, Dr Lufkin I was a radiologic technologist before I went to med school and I went with the full intention of either being a surgeon or being a radiologist.

Speaker 3: 17:21

And radiology got ticked off because very early I had to mark that off, because here in Tennessee we have something called TennCare and when I was going to medical school, radiology was a very comfortable specialty, very comfortable right, Very nice. You just sit in a room and dictate it and people brought you stuff and it was nice. Then all of a sudden, TennCare popped up and radiologists were getting $5 to read a chest x-ray. And you know I'm like, uh, no, never mind, Never mind. Plus, I really wanted to be a surgeon. So, uh, but, but radiologists now in Tennessee it's no, no longer a comfortable specialty, it's not. You know it's nothing to brag about. So but I remember very clearly my radiology lectures.

Speaker 3: 18:08

I took an elective my fourth year of med school in radiology because I was still kind of considering that and I loved the instruction, because I was very interested in that and I was very good at it. And I remember the first class the instructor, who's a radiologist, threw up a chest x-ray, a PA, and he said now you can see that this person has a pneumothorax, a collapsed lung. And I was in the back of the room. I was a back of room kind of student, but I had been looking at x-rays for years as an x-ray tech, right, and so he talked about the pneumothorax and how we had to do this and that, and I kept looking at the x-ray, waiting for him to finish the sentence, and he didn't. And so I thought, well, I'm going to show how smart I am.

Speaker 3: 18:51

I raised my hand from the back of the room and I said it could be that the three rib fractures there are what caused the pneumothorax. And immediately I knew I'd stepped in because all the students were like rib fractures, what's he talking about? And then obviously the radiologist did not. Either had not seen them or it was just a teaching case, I don't know. But the radiologist was not happy that I had pointed out the three rib fractures that were.

Speaker 3: 19:20

You know, as you know as a radiologist, they can be very challenging to see, but as after looking at him for years. They just jumped out at me. I'm like, well, duh, there's three, you know three rib fractures. He probably has a flail chest and that did not go over well. And so that's when I that was one of the very first times that I learned that in medicine often the best strategy is to shut up, Never ask why, Just write down what they tell you and then regurgitate that on the test. And so you're saying, with this new residency program you're going to maybe even encourage medical students and residents to ask why.

Speaker 2: 19:56

Hopefully. Yeah, I mean one of the best quotes and sort of the inspiration for my book. But one of the greatest doctors who ever lived was Sir William Osler and he has one of the best quotes about medical education that he gave to a class of graduating medical students who were on their way to the day they became doctors. And he said and he was from the late 1800s, but his quote was gentlemen, and of course at the time they were all gentlemen or they were all male, if not gentlemen.

Speaker 3: 20:29

Perhaps not gentlemen, but male.

Speaker 2: 20:32

He said gentlemen, we have a confession to make 50% of what we've just taught you is incorrect and furthermore, we don't know which half. And that was true then, it's true now. That's the nature of science, nature of medicine. We all have to be humble. We all have to keep looking at things, just like you're doing, like I'm doing. We all need to be open-minded. I've said, if the Coca-Cola company, if it comes out with a controlled trial that Coca-Cola is a healthy drink that will make me live longer, I will go back to drinking Coca-Cola every day. I have, you know, I will follow. I just want to follow the science. I, you know, I, I want to do whatever, wherever the science takes me.

Speaker 3: 21:19

Yeah, I totally agree and I've said that many times. Obviously, I'm capable of changing my mind because I've already done that and apologize publicly for my past indiscretion. What is your? And so, yes, absolutely, if there, if there was well done research, and definitely I would check the funding of the research, right, I would not want to know who funded that. But if it came out like it's, it's blatantly obvious drinking Coca Cola will improve your health and there's no arguing that like here it is, this is, this is. Yes, I would, I would change my tune, I would apologize again and say, well, I guess you should be drinking Coke, because this, this study is very clear. And but I think most doctors do not have that and I want you to talk about this.

Speaker 3: 22:04

I can remember the things I was taught in med school. Nobody in med school ever said to me now, you do not change your mind. No matter what evidence comes out, no matter what paradigms change, you stick to the story. No professor ever told me that. So why, dr Lutkin, in the first few years of my medical practice, why was I so emphatic? Why was I so militant? You need to just join the gym and join Weight Watchers if you're overweight. If you're type 2 diabetic, then you just need to eat lots of complex carbs. Why was I so hardheaded as a young doctor? Nobody said here's a check for $100 hundred grand. You got it, but you got to stick to the party line. Why is the average doctor so militant and why do they become emotional so quickly when a patient pushes back?

Speaker 2: 22:56

Yeah, that's a great question. I think you're right. Nobody really said it to us, but I think there's an unspoken message that, as physicians and other healthcare providers, we need to maintain the orthodoxy. In other words, there's so much noise coming in snake oil and so many unfounded things that, as physicians, we need to be conservative and we have to be very careful about changing our opinion. So I remember I was militant about taking those egg yolks out. I don't want to clog my arteries. Eat a red steak, eat red meat no, I don't want to do that. But yeah, so I think it wasn't spoken, but it's something that we're taught non-verbally or indirectly and that's the bias we have and I have to say I think I don't.

Speaker 2: 23:56

Basically, I love my vegan friends. I love my carnivore friends. I think you can be healthy anywhere on the spectrum. I think it's much more. What you want to avoid is junk food, and I think it's much more challenging as a vegan because of the potential deficiencies and there's I used to be a vegan. There's so much junk food available. I was a junk food vegan. I think it's easier on the carnivore side, especially your proper human diet. Going that way just makes it simpler. You get your nutrient-dense foods, but out of respect for everyone's taste, I think it's possible to be healthy with any of those diets, but some are just harder work than others.

Speaker 3: 24:42

Yes, I totally agree. Now this is live being recorded, live in front of our private tribe in our community, and so, if you don't mind, doctor, if they have questions, I'm going to pop a question up on the screen. If you guys are watching this on the replay on YouTube, the way to get to ask experts like Dr Lufkin questions is to join our private community. There's a link in the show notes. We've got a question here from Allison. What are the continuing education requirements for physicians? For example, is it specialty-based? So if you're a surgeon, you have to keep up with surgical literature. You want to take that first, doc.

Speaker 2: 25:18

Oh, sure, yeah, I can speak to radiology. We have to maintain our licenses, our state licenses. We have to have 50, five zero hours approximately of accredited CME continuing medical education, accredited lectures that we not only watch but we have to like answer questions about them. The problem with that is those lectures frequently, or that instruction, that knowledge, frequently repeats the lies that are present in you know. It just perpetuates the dogma, unfortunately.

Speaker 3: 25:57

And so Dr Lufkin, as a radiologist, his 50 hours could be exclusively just radiology new MR technology, new CT, new types of imaging Whereas as a family physician I can do my CME much more broadly. So I could actually get some CME for nutrition if I wanted, if I chose that. But if I'm just a blood pressure pill and sinus infection family doctor, I could do all 50 hours just on the latest blood pressure medications and the latest antibiotics for sinus infection. And here in Tennessee I think this may be this way nationwide, so at least some. Well, for the American Academy of Family Physicians, at least some of my credits. I think 25 hours have to be in person, like I have to go to a conference or something, but the vast majority of them can be online or can be through the mail.

Speaker 3: 26:53

And Dr Lufkin can tell you this. I'll tell you guys this. Pull back that curtain a little bit. The vast majority of CME that I can take, literally the answers, are included. So I'll give you an example. Here's the American Academy of Family Physicians. This is their journal, and so to get the CME, I always tear the cover off so I know the date that it came out. But on the, on the back cover there's the answers to the CME. So, literally, if the doctor is just being lazy and like I don't even want to read the questions, you don't even have to read the questions to get the CME credit, is it? Is it that way in radiology as well, doc? Like, literally, here's the answers.

Speaker 2: 27:36

Sadly. Yeah, our largest national, the largest radiology meeting in the world is held once a year. But they give a live stream credit for watching the lectures, but all you have to do, literally, is is have them running on your screen and then and then you you get credit for them. I one question that comes up too, related to like radiology, like you know, what do you, do you know radiology? What do you know about nutrition? What does it matter what the radiologist thinks, or, or you know what the neurosurgeon thinks, or anybody else?

Speaker 2: 28:08

I think all of us as physicians, we impart our biases when we teach everything. So if a patient comes in with a heart attack, we go look at those coronary arteries. You know they had. You know that saturated fat. You know they maybe ate too many steaks or something. You know their, their little comments that we make. Or blood pressure you know that person has elevated blood pressure. We got to get him on some meds rather than saying, well, you know, if he cut his carbs, we could drop his blood pressure first before we put him on meds, assuming it's not too high. You know, and and we all communicate those biases in our discussion with colleagues and friends and with the, with the students we teach and and, of course, with our patients.

Speaker 3: 28:51

Yep, absolutely so. For those of you just joining us, it's Dr Robert Lufkin. He wrote a book called Lies I Taught in Medical School. He's actually he's the guy that teaches the doctors, and so if you've recently been to a doctor and the doctors just said some stupid stuff and you're like what's wrong with this guy this is the guy right here, okay, but he has apologized publicly. He's written a book spilling the beans about lies that he taught in medical school. Give us some other examples, doctor, of lies that you used to teach in medical school to medical students who were going to go on to become doctors. What are some examples of lies you used to teach that now you do not teach those lies anymore.

Speaker 2: 29:35

Well, moving on from obesity to type 2 diabetes, which again is at epidemic proportions. The world has never seen the numbers even a population adjusted for type 2 diabetes that we have now. And type 2 diabetes of course drives Alzheimer's, cancer, cardiovascular disease, basically all the major diseases it drives. So type 2 diabetes is present in unprecedented amounts. So there are genetic predispositions, but genes don't explain the explosion of cases with type 2 diabetes. Explosion of cases with type 2 diabetes, Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 30:18

One thing that was an epiphany to me was that type 2, I used to think as a doctor, you know type 2 diabetes, either you have it or you don't, and you know if you have it that's too bad and we'll do some stuff. If you don't have it, don't worry about it. There was an interesting study that's changed my mind about that and several other things. It was adult Americans who are non-diabetic adult Americans, and we look at their hemoglobin A1C levels, which your audience is probably familiar with, as a marker for type 2 diabetes, and when it crosses a certain threshold you have type 2 diabetes. And when it's below that threshold you may be pre-diabetic or not. And the interesting thing was, with aging, for most Americans the HA1C levels continue to rise. So it's almost like. For most of us, type two diabetes is sort of like gray hair, In other words, if we live long enough and don't die of something else first, we're going to get type 2 diabetes. So how does that inform our decisions? Well, you know, maybe we should change our diet to things that you know that don't drive insulin resistance and don't put us on the path to type 2 diabetes.

Speaker 2: 31:26

So to your question about a lie, the one lie, I think that in the book I talk about with type 2 diabetes, that insulin is a good way to manage type 2 diabetes and that's the mainstream teaching of the American Diabetic Association and Diabetes Association and everything else. And the problem is and I used to think that too insulin is lifesaving. It will save a person's life if they have glucose abnormalities, hyper, hyper, hyperglycemia, uh, but. But to put people on it long term for type 2 diabetes is is a problem. And people think when they get on insulin that it's that it's controlling their disease.

Speaker 2: 32:13

And there are some interesting studies that have come out that show that type 2 diabetes with insulin control, the greater the control of the glucose with insulin actually doesn't lower morbidity, and there's higher morbidity the more insulin you use. And morbidity we mean things like heart attacks, Alzheimer's disease, all those things. So it's actually making people worse. And type two diabetes is insulin resistance. You know, of course, you've probably talked about this before, but elevated insulin, so giving more insulin is probably the worst thing you could do.

Speaker 3: 32:49

Yet yeah, that is the DCCT trial, absolutely Yep, that is the DCCT trial. And this is a great example of how doctors can make up their own lies in their own head. Nobody even told them this. So this trial looked at hey, let's aggressively control type two diabetes with insulin. Let's get that A1C down to 5.6 with insulin. And they had to stop the trial early because people were dropping dead left and right and they're like oh no. So this is where doctors get that thing where they say as long as your A1C is between six and a half and seven and a half, that's fine. That's the goal. We don't want you to have it too low.

Speaker 3: 33:31

And I just had a lady last night on Monday Night Live. She said my mother's 86 and she's been eating Ketovor, which, for people who don't know, that's under 10 total grams of carbs a day, and her A1C went from eight and a half down to 5.9. Like she's reversed her type two diabetes, but she's still a little pre-diabetic, right. So she goes to her doctor. The daughter went with her and the doctor saw her A1C and immediately became very concerned and said this is dangerous for somebody your age to have an A1C this low. You need to get that up between you know, seven, you want to be around seven because that's the safest A1C to have, being an elderly person. Now you see what happened here. This study was looking at intensive insulin control and they concluded if you are have a patient on insulin and you're, you do not aggressively boost the insulin, because if you get the A1C too low with insulin, you're increasing this patient's risk of death.

Speaker 3: 34:36

This doctor just totally made this shit up in his head that oh, if you're an elderly person, then it's dangerous to have a low A1C. Literally not what the study showed at all, that had nothing to do, but he just remembered that. And so this is an example of a doctor not paying attention, just half-assed paying attention. Half-assed got okay, so A1C7, got it. And now he's recommending that to all his elderly patients, thinking that he's doing a good job, wow, wow. And so that's like an echo of the lie. That's not even what the study said, that's not what the study was about. But he just remembered A1C7, got it okay, and now he's recommending that to all his elderly patients. And I last night on the live, I literally had to come apart like good Lord, there are people out there as doctors teaching this kind of crap. What are some of just the most dangerous lies that you've heard doctors repeating? Or they're just the most egregious like what the hell is wrong with you. Why are you even saying that out loud as somebody who has initials behind your name?

Speaker 2: 35:38

Yeah, well, I think this particular lie about insulin reflected a bigger lie about all chronic diseases that I certainly wasn't aware of, and that was that these drugs, these prescriptions and even some surgeries that are given for chronic diseases like hypertension or cardiovascular disease or Alzheimer's disease or diabetes, of course they reverse the symptoms, but they don't change the root cause. And the obvious example is if I go in, I get a heart attack. Most likely, depending on the anatomy, I will get a stent, which is a mechanical thing to open up the narrowing of my blood vessels. And most people that you talk to them, hey, I got a stent, my heart disease is cured, I'm good and they don't realize that the stent only it's like insulin with type 2 diabetes, it keeps you from dying in the moment from the single event, but it doesn't change the overall course of the disease. In other words, in heart disease, your blood vessels continue to narrow, including the stent eventually. And in hypertension, giving people blood pressure medicines, you lower the blood pressure but you don't change the underlying progressive damage to the endothelium, the blood vessel lining, and with type two diabetes.

Speaker 2: 37:02

So that was the thing and that that we that for most of these chronic diseases, the drugs and surgery that we recommend may save a life, and you know we shouldn't necessarily not do them acutely but to really look long-term, reverse the disease and get at the root cause. What works, it's things like you're talking about, ken, with diet, nutrition and lifestyle. That is the key, that is the power. Lifestyle, that is the key, that is the power. There are very few drugs or I don't know of any drugs that can have the effect on us that lifestyle does as far as these chronic diseases.

Speaker 3: 37:42

Oh, I totally agree. There is not a single FDA-approved pharmaceutical at the pharmacy that will lower your A1C as much as eating a low-carb, keto, ketovor carnivore diet. It just doesn't exist. It's not even close. In fact, most of the type two diabetes medications that get FDA approved got their FDA approval because they lowered A1C better than placebo. And so many of these drugs literally their claim to fame is that they'll lower your A1C 0.2 or 0.3 percentage points, so it'll lower your A1C from eight down to 7.7. That's literally how they got their FDA approval. And so the FDA doesn't require these new drugs to compare themselves to the best drug on the market right now, because if they did that, there'd be way fewer drugs that got FDA approved, because they would all fail, because the best drugs are almost always already on the market, for example, metformin. If you had to put your type 2 diabetes medication head-to-head against metformin, you would fail nine times out of ten, because the new drugs don't do that. They just don't go like that.

Speaker 3: 38:51

Now you have many peer-reviewed published research papers. You've done a lot of research. Pull back the curtain again, dr Lufkin. Let the listeners know how much money comes in from big pharma and from the big manufacturers of medical equipment, the stent guys, the catheter guys. How does that money? When they say, hey, we're going to fund your foundation, we're going to fund the new wing that you're building on your medical school, how does that money? How does it have an effect on the research that gets published?

Speaker 2: 39:35

Yeah, I mean there's both a conscious effect and a subconscious effect, I think, by the money, these pernicious financial incentives that drive all of us. First of all, I think, if a certain drug company is funding a certain project and you propose a grant, the grant you propose should have a high likelihood of success. And because drug companies and in many cases when I was doing the drug research they would even have a clause in the grant which would say we get to review the results before any publication and you don't have the freedom to publish it without us signing off what does that mean? That means if you get a negative result, they prevent you from publishing it. And that's an obvious, you know, overt thing.

Speaker 2: 40:32

But there are many, many more subtle, you know, wink, wink, nod, nod things. I mean, you know, if Nestle's is funding my grant, it's going to change the way I ask the research questions. So that's the problem with being funded by special interests. Nih is less that way. But then there are some, you know, the NIH reviewers that decide which grants get approved are ultimately, you know, have connections with big pharma and with big food. You've seen Nina Teichol's great work on the nutrition council and the conflicts with the members that designed the food pyramid. They all have, or most of them have. They're paid by big food, which is not the way, not the decision process you want for deciding the kind of food that my kids get served at school, you know, or that our veteran, or that our armed forces people get served in military institutions, or that you know that the rest of us follow, because we think that the food pyramid, because it's a public health recommendation, it's somehow healthy when it's really not.

Speaker 3: 41:57

I totally agree. One thing that I found, just for the average person they're a waitress, they're a truck driver, they work at a big box store just a regular person. Right, they got a, they got a spouse and a dog and they come home and right, they're just living their life. When you talk about, when they think of a doctor or a dietician or any health care professional, they look up to them. It's just, it's hardwired. When they look at them as like, oh, that person is more than me, they're smarter than me, when in reality the truth is that person's just been in school longer than you and they just know a whole lot about a very limited, tiny little subject. But it's, it's human nature to look up to an expert. Right, we can't help that. And so the average person.

Speaker 3: 42:43

When they start hearing you and I talk about the corruption both the both just the blatant fraud, but then also this, I call it soft black, like I'm not just saying here's a check for a hundred thousand dollars. I want you to go and do a study and make up some shit that makes my product look good. No, that doesn't happen. We're not a third world country, at least not yet. That doesn't happen. No, but the soft blackmail. Like you know, we'd love to. If this study turns out okay, we would love to fund this new residency program. We'll even name it the Lufkin Center, right Right, this shit happens, and so I want you to, as a medical school professor, help people understand people who are not in academia. Help them understand that doctors are just dudes and chicks. They are not demigods. They are not in any way more ethical, they're not more moral. They're also not less susceptible to logical fallacies and to the soft blackmail that comes with these grants. Tell us how it really works.

Speaker 2: 43:52

Absolutely, ken, that's so true. And these people, you know, although they mean well, they're all these subconscious influences, and whenever they went to medical school, you know, it could be five years ago, it could be 20 years ago, that's when their basic knowledge was solidified about most things. And then, as, as they go into their specialty because today people are specialized in more and more areas, even you know, family medicine is a specialty, you know, and and so, since leaving medical school, they're bathed in just the the knowledge of their particular specialty, but also the biases of that specialty. And it's really true what you said, ken, that these are just, you know, guys and chicks trying to get by in their job, trying to make the mortgage payments, trying to provide for their kids and trying to take care of you and me. But at the end of the day, there's one person that knows more about me than the doctor, and that's me. I may not be a medical doctor, let's say, or I may not be, but I know about my life, I know about my experiences, I know about my lifestyle choices more than the doctor will find out about me, even after going to them for decades, with, you know, several 15 minute visits. It's just the nature of the beast. Modern medicine doesn't allow the doctor to get deep involved with you. Even you know, ken, and I have seen patients that we're asked to consult on and we'll, you know, see a stack of uh reports. Uh, now it's all digital, of course, but there's like 20 years of history of medical history in there and as physicians we don't have time to review it. So what do we do? We look at the last pages of the last consults and reread the summaries. So, you know, maybe they don't say that you had a broken leg at age five with that and it won't be in there, but you know it. You know there are other things you know about. Oh, maybe I.

Speaker 2: 46:06

You know, I eat red vines before every movie when I go in, like I used to do as a junk food addict, you know, because I thought it was healthy. I thought it was fine as long as I stayed away from red meat and saturated fat, which is completely reversed. I think red meat and saturated fat is one of the healthiest things you can eat. Eggs too, you know, I think it's hard to go. Eggs is nature's ozempic. You know, it's like it's hard to go. Eggs is nature's ozempic. It's hard to go wrong eating eggs, and you're not going to overeat either. I've never seen anyone except Paul Newman eat more than a few eggs at a time.

Speaker 3: 46:46

Now Phyllis has got an interesting thought, and perhaps you and I need to start prefacing every time we do a video. Perhaps Dr Lufkin should remind people that he is not depressed, he's not suicidal and he doesn't want to die. So let me just take this opportunity to say I am not suicidal, I love my life and I want to live for a long time. Doc, do you want to? I feel like we're stepping on some powerful toes.

Speaker 2: 47:09

Yeah, I'm not depressed, I don't want to die. Yeah, I'm not depressed, I don't want to die. And that was another wake-up call for me in this whole journey I've been in on nutrition was that the diet that I began to take that would help reverse my hypertension, would reverse my gout, would reverse my dyslipidemia, my gout would reverse my dyslipidemia and would reverse my type two diabetes, would also reverse or slow down the risk of Alzheimer's disease. It would also, in some studies, lower the risk of cancer. It would also, in many, many people, cause them to lose weight.

Speaker 2: 47:52

But one of the most interesting things was completely unexpected, with the work of Chris Palmer and Georgia Eade you probably had them on your program about the effects of this same diet, this, this hypertension diet. This is basically the lifestyle that reverses all chronic diseases, basically diseases. Basically also reverses psychiatric conditions and mental health to the point where people get out of the hospital and go home, return to their families and have normal jobs. And that raises the interesting question for all of us, all of us who don't have psychiatric illness, but we all have our ups and downs in our daily lives, dealing with our kids. You know our wives, our friends, our bosses. You know our ups and downs of depression and you know elevation maybe not clinically significant, but if, if these dietary choices can improve our brain functioning for these chronic diseases, it probably has unappreciated and probably very significant effects on our day-to-day well-being and our mental wellness just going through our everyday lives.

Speaker 3: 49:05

Yep, I totally agree. Speaking of diet, walk us through a day of eating for you. Nancy wants to know.

Speaker 2: 49:11

Thanks.

Speaker 2: 49:12

Thanks for the question, nancy. Well, that's an easy one. I mean, I used to eat all the time and I used to eat junk food all the time. My mom and I was taught, you know, you eat six small meals a day, and you know, and you never get hungry. And now I basically first thing I did was I cut down the frequency of eating. So I now eat one meal a day. I get it in the morning. I have black coffee from you know any vendor or I make it myself, and there you go. And then I go through and I skip lunch and for me my one meal a day is dinner time, because it's when my kids come home. You know, as much as we can get together with teenagers that we get together and enjoy that meal.

Speaker 2: 50:02

So first thing I did was I eat once a day and the interesting thing is people say well, how can you do that? You're going to starve. I can never do that. Well, as you probably talked about before, when we go into ketosis and when we make these, when we begin fasting, this, this mild intermittent fasting uh we it. It suppresses the appetite. So I'm actually not hungry.

Speaker 2: 50:28

I used to be hungry all the time I'd have brain fog at noon, I'd fall asleep after lunch and now my brain is much, much sharper now, much more clarity, much more mental energy. And why do I not eat? Because I feel great when I don't. I exercise, fasted, I, you know it's great and I have more money, because I don't spend money on lunch or breakfast. And I have more time because I'm not sitting somewhere. You know, I could, I could choose to sit somewhere if I want, but I could. I can do other things as well. So that that's what I, that's when I eat and what I eat. I pretty much follow Dr Berry's advice and I I eat.

Speaker 2: 51:12

I avoid junk food. So the question then becomes what's junk food? Well, for me junk food is refined carbohydrates or starches. So I pretty much avoid those. And you know, as your audience knows, carbohydrates are the one macronutrient that's actually not required. It's not essential, we don't have to eat any at all and you know they're carnivore populations that don't eat significant carbs at all. So one I avoid carbs.

Speaker 2: 51:39

Two other things I avoid is something called seed oils, which are high omega-6 oils. They were industrial oils developed at the turn of the 20th century as originally as possible lubricants for German U-boats and then it turned into Crisco and that funded the American Heart Association, which to this day still has on their website that vegetable oil is a heart-healthy oil and they sell this dubious recommendation to companies to put on their bottles that said heart-healthy recommendation to companies to put on their bottles that said heart healthy, which is, in my opinion, very unhealthy, and I avoid seed oils for that reason. And the third thing I avoid is grains, not because I'm not I don't have celiac disease or a problem with gluten, but as many people. Many experts believe that up to 50% of the population may have a low-grade inflammatory reaction to gluten and, if not gluten, other proteins in the grains. And in the US, of course, our grains are soaked in a herbicide, glyphosate, and usually they're full of carbs, so I'm happily grain-free also.

Speaker 2: 52:57

The interesting thing with those is, you know, if you choose to make those decisions, the great thing about cutting out carbs. You know you'll see the dietary effects of glucose changes and ketosis. You know in 24 to 48 hours You'll immediately see that You'll feel better. Your brain will be sharp. If you're going to cut out carbs, though, it takes about 90 days before you get the effect on your immune system. So it's like, hey, I cut out carbs for a week, I didn't feel any different. No, you got to do it for three months really to see that. And then seed oil, sadly, is even longer. At least many experts say that the seed oils can be present in your fat for 24 months or so. So it's even longer. And seed oils are everywhere they're in salad dressings are really hard to avoid.

Speaker 3: 53:48

Yeah, I was just talking to Lear Keith yesterday, who's a recovering vegan, and she was talking about when she added eggs back into her diet, that before that her skin was so tight that it literally hurt to bend her elbows or knees and that and it's because that her her cell membranes of each and every skin cell was made of omega-6 oils she didn't have the right fats to make the cell membranes, and then, immediately, within days of adding eggs back in, her skin started to clear up and it started to be more flexible and more mobile. And so it's important for people to understand that different cells in your body are replaced at different rates, and that's why the seed oils when you stop eating seed oils, they'll be out of your skin within two or three months, but then other cell populations and one being your fat cells years. It takes years to get all of that stuff out, and so that's why some of the benefits are noticeable within days or weeks. Some of the benefits are going to take years to materialize, and that's why it's very important to be very strict with the three things that Dr Lufkin got out of his diet, which is any added sugar, all of the grains and all of the vegetable seed oils, so that that would immediately start to improve the health of any average person eating the standard American diet. Now you mentioned heart healthy.

Speaker 3: 55:10

Let's talk about heart imaging. Since you're a radiologist, let's talk about the CAC scan. Let's talk about heart imaging. Since you're a radiologist, let's talk about the CAC scan. Let's talk about CT angiography of the heart arteries. You know more and more. Even the American Heart Association now says that a CAC scan a coronary artery calcium score of zero, you can use that in their algorithm to say, okay, I guess you don't need a statin right now or another cholesterol-lowering medication. What are the pros and cons of CAC scans versus CT angiogram of the heart arteries? And so how much? Also, how much, since you're the expert here how much radiation do you get from each of those scans? And is it worth that radiation to get the knowledge that you'll glean from laying down on the CAT scan table, to get those studies?

Speaker 2: 56:04

Yeah. So just to circle back, the CT-CAC is a CT coronary artery calcium scan, is a CT coronary artery calcium scan and it's those of you who've never had one. You go into a CT scanner which has radiation and you line the table. It takes about 15 minutes. They do just a few cuts right through your heart and it's a very limited amount of radiation. And there's no injection, there's nothing in your veins or arteries. It's a very quick study. Unfortunately, in most states other than Texas I think, it's not covered by insurance, so you have to pay out of pocket. But it's, you know it's. I think it should be around a hundred dollars, but I personally I think it's money well spent because some of the things that dr barry mentioned. First of all, if you're on a statin, even the american college of cardiology recommends you can safely get off a statin, assuming you don't have familial risk factors but or or a previous heart attack. If you don't have those, you can get off a statin with a zero calcium score. The calcium score measures the amount of calcification in the blood vessels to the heart, which are called the coronary arteries, and it literally gives you a score from zero to several thousand, and a zero means no calcium at all and that's associated with low risk for heart attack in the future. The calcium occurs in the plaques, the narrowing of the blood vessels as they begin to heal, so there is sort of a secondary effect of the plaque. So I would recommend the calcium score, even if you're you know it's a strong motivator to understand your own risk for heart disease. If you're kind of wavering, you know, I don't know, this lifestyle thing seems like a lot of risk For some people. They get a calcium score and they see the numbers and they go, wow, I didn't know, I had this already, even though they're asymptomatic. Because you know, for heart disease being asymptomatic doesn't help you because sudden death is the first symptom for many of us, sadly. So don't rely on symptoms for heart disease. So I would recommend a calcium score for anyone you know over 40, but you know even over 30, depending on how aggressive you want to be with looking at your heart, your heart health and taking control of your lives.

Speaker 2: 58:34

Now there's something else that you've probably talked about before, called soft plaque, which is narrowing of the blood vessels that don't have that calcification in it yet. And the CT calcium score only shows the calcium, so conceivably it could miss the soft plaque of the disease. And in order to see that, you can do a much more involved scan, which is a CT coronary angiogram, which is a significant more amount of radiation. It is covered by insurance, depending on what indications you have, but it does require an injection into your veins of a contrast material that causes the blood vessels of the heart to be opacified and then you can see the narrowing and the plaques there and you can see the presence of these plaques, which some of which may not be calcified.

Speaker 2: 59:27

Um, the the problem, the problem with all these things is we really don't don't understand heart disease that much, just like we don't understand most of medicine and even plaques. You know, the current teaching now is, if I go in and I have chest pain and I get an angiogram and I have narrowing of my blood vessels, I will get a stent. And you know there's some arguments that people who have narrowed blood vessels, actually they have collateral circulation and their peripheral heart is not at risk and the narrowing itself may not be the risk. It may be a wide open blood vessel that suddenly a plaque ruptures. That is what kills us.

Speaker 2: 1:00:11

So you know even our thinking about how we put in stents and how we evaluate plaques. It's far from being solved. So personally, I think calcium score is a great thing for anyone without symptoms, even if you're just curious about your health. Certainly, if you're taking a statin, take a calcium score and you may be able to get off the statin from your doctor without an argument. Otherwise you're going to have an argument. The CT angiogram I save that for more involved clinically indicated cases and you know it's just. It's a lot of radiation, it's injection and the information it provides, you know, may not really be that helpful.

Speaker 3: 1:00:57

Yeah, I totally agree. You mentioned stents there a moment ago and stents are another great example of how medicine, although well-meaning your doctor means well they can get it completely wrong. You remember Dr Lufkin? A few years back it was just considered self-evident that if you had some blockage in your coronary artery, one of the arteries feeding your heart muscle, if you had a 50% blockage, well, it just makes sense just from a plumbing perspective, you need to put a stent in that and open that up. Right, that's just common sense. You got a a blockage, you open the blockage, yes, of course.

Speaker 3: 1:01:35

And so for years cardiologists paid for so many Mercedes-Benzes putting stents in everybody, even people who were asymptomatic. They'd have the minimalist, the tiniest symptoms and they would do a cath like, oh, you got a 40, you got a 50, you got a 60 blockage, even though they're really not having symptoms. They would get three or four stents, and the stent manufacturers obviously were encouraging this right. They were probably even letting a cardiologist name the new wing of the hospital after themselves if they talked good enough about the stents for long enough. Then it occurred to somebody and I think that doctor probably had a similar mindset to you and me it's like wait a minute. Do we know for a fact that stinting all these people is actually a good thing? Do we know that? Or are we just assuming that? And so they did a study where they sham stinted some patients and then really stinted the other patients. Turns out the sham. The people who didn't even get a stint did just as good or better than the people that were getting four or five, six, seven stents at a time, and that transformed the practice of interventional radiology.

Speaker 3: 1:02:41

And this, that story, has repeated itself so many times in medicine, and it's not just modern medicine. Like for for centuries, medicine has just been getting things wrong, and they get it wrong for 5, 10, 15, 20, 100 years, depending on what the lie is. And then all of a sudden some weird kooky guy like Dr Lufkin or like me comes along and says wait, do we know for a fact that bleeding patients if they have a sore throat, does that really help? Do we know for a fact that cutting the neurons in a young boy's brain who wants it, still in school a lobotomy? Do we know for a fact that that's a good thing? Do we know for a fact that putting all housewives on a dose of value. Is that really a good? Is that proven? Or do we just assume that this keeps happening?

Speaker 3: 1:03:34

And so when people think their doctor is above reproach, when they think their doctor is just too smart, they would not fall for that kind of foolishness? Think again, because you're wrong. And this guy, he's a medical school professor and he's got a new book that you can buy a copy of here. It is right here Lies I taught in medical school. And so, doc, as we close out the hour, reassure people that just because I wrote my book, just because you wrote your book, that doesn't mean that all the lies are out of medicine. How ubiquitous are these lies still when you meet with colleagues every day, when you talk to young residents? How ubiquitous are the lies still being practiced every day in medicine?

Speaker 2: 1:04:19

Yeah, sadly, the lies that you've pointed out, ken, in your book and the lies that are in my book are still being repeated at top medical schools. When I go to the conferences, I hear them say there's no treatment for fatty liver disease and we don't know what causes non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. You know, or you know, stents, all those things, and even Alzheimer's disease. You know, it's the beta amyloid. You know we just need to find, you know, find a way to take care of beta amyloid. I mean, you know, find a way to take care of beta amyloid. So many, so many misconceptions, and they're, they're just out there. But the great thing, the great thing about lifestyle is, you know to your point, ken, these choices that we lifestyle is our choice. You know, no doctor can make us healthy through lifestyle. We get to do it ourselves. So it gives us agency that we've never had before. That we're, you know, more than ever then, and our doctor is our consultant and if we don't like their advice we can fire them, you know, and get another another doctor.

Speaker 2: 1:05:27

We're in charge of our lives and the lifestyle choices we get to make. We get to make every single day when we wake up it's a new day. We get to choose what we're going to put in our body, when we're going to do it and all the other lifestyle choices, and that, to me, is so empowering. I just wake up and I go, wow, you know I get to, you know I get to do these things today. It's great and so I'm fun and it's a message, hopefully, that we can all take home.

Speaker 3: 1:06:00

Yep, and I want everybody watching this to keep in mind that if your doctor is recommending a handful of expensive pharmaceutical pills, you need to think about that, you need to do your own research and you need to maybe say no to at least some of that. But alternatively, if your doctor is recommending a bunch of nutraceuticals, a bunch of supplements that they just happen to sell in their office and they're like yeah, it doesn't matter what you eat, you need to take this long list of supplements that I happen to sell, your bullshit meter should be pegging. You should be going wait, I need all that, really so. But now when? If a doctor is recommending a dietary change foods that humans have been eating for millions of years it's safe to try that for 90 days, even if it's a vegan, even if they're like I want you to. I don't want you to eat highly processed vegan foods. I want you to eat only whole vegan foods. Yeah, try that for 90 days.

Speaker 3: 1:06:59

Or, at the opposite end of the spectrum, if a doctor saying I want you to eat only meat and eggs for 90 days yeah, we've been eating meat and eggs for a long damn time. That's not some new invention, that's not some fad diet. That's not some weird pharmaceutical thing that maybe has consequences. You can try a dietary intervention for 90 days and at the end of that 90 days you've just done your own experiment and you get to look in the mirror and say how do I look? You get to get on the scale and say, ok, what does the scale say? Then you get to just have an internal conversation and say how do I feel? That's not dangerous, that's not spooky, that's not faddish to try dietary intervention and you can always do that without the permission of your doctor. Dr Lepkin, author of Lies I Taught in Medical School. There's a link down in the show notes. If you guys want to check out a copy of this book, is there an audible version?

Speaker 2: 1:07:55

There is an audible version. Yes, I love it. For those of you who have ADHD, like me.

Speaker 3: 1:08:01

there is an audible version so you can listen while doing something else. Dr Lufkin, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this interview. Where can people find you online if they'd like to hear more of what you have to say?

Speaker 2: 1:08:15

Yeah, I'm on social media Robert Lufkin MD and website Robert Lufkin MD dot com, so please come and visit.

Speaker 3: 1:08:23

Thank you so much, doctor. Thanks everybody for joining me. This is important stuff. If you haven't already hit the share button, you really need to and share this with the people that you care about. Need to and share this with the people that you care about because I guarantee you the doctor they're seeing is repeating lies that Dr Lufkin taught them in medical school. It's all his fault, and now he's confessing. He's owning up, and I applaud him for doing so, just as I have done in the past as well. Thank you, dr Lufkin. Have a good day. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 1:08:52

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