A Glucose Sensing Watch | Sabih Chaudhry PhD

Ever wished continuous glucose data didn’t require needles, adhesives, or a prescription? We sit down with Sabih Chaudhry, PhD, founder of AFON Technology, to unpack GlucoWare—a wrist-worn, noninvasive glucose wearable that uses low-power RF signals to read blood in near real time. Instead of piercing the skin, the device couples with your wrist, wakes every five minutes, pings a tiny signal, processes the reflection in under 200 milliseconds, and sends the data to your phone before going back to sleep. The result: familiar CGM-style insights without the interstitial lag, skin-tone limitations, or daily hassles.

We explore the journey from a rough “antenna and saline” lab hack to a robust, manufacturable design tested in environmental chambers and on robotic arms. Sabih explains how the team tackled motion noise, temperature swings, and material choices, all while building for scale and regulatory approval. We compare RF spectroscopy to optical approaches, discuss accuracy targets, and outline a roadmap aimed at non–insulin-dependent type 2 users first, with CE marking in sight and the FDA pathway running in parallel. Along the way, we dig into fundraising lessons, the choice to work with high-net-worth investors, and the newly inked partnership with a global manufacturer.

Beyond the tech, the conversation lands on impact. A painless, over-the-counter path to real-time glucose could help more people see spikes after meals, personalize diet and exercise, and improve time-in-range—key steps toward lowering HbA1c and reducing complications that strain health systems. The design leans fashion-forward to remove stigma, while the app mirrors clinical conventions so clinicians and users can speak the same language. Looking ahead, AFON’s modular electronics hint at future biomarkers—lactate, ketones, alcohol—and a smaller form factor suitable for kids, all pointing toward a smarter, more humane wearables era.

If you care about metabolic health, diabetes innovation, or the next leap in consumer-friendly biosensing, this one’s worth your queue. Subscribe, share with a friend who watches their glucose, and leave a review telling us what biomarker you want measured next.

https://afontechnology.com/

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Transcript

Meet Sabi And GlucoWare

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hey Sabi, welcome to the program. Thank you very much, thanks for having me. I'm so excited. You hold a PhD in microwave and telecommunications, and you've you've been working pioneering non-invasive glucose monitoring techniques since before 2005. You got awards for it leadership. And today we're going to talk about a cutting edge game-changing, world-changing technology that uh that you're developing. So maybe we'll just we'll just start in in one sentence. What is glucoware? Then in 30 seconds, what should people care about it not just as a tech, but as a life changer?

The Eureka Moment In Microwave Sensing

SPEAKER_01 0:46

So glucoware is a non-invasive wearable blood glucose indicator. It's very much like a watch, but it's worn on the underside of the wrist. Very fashionable accessory as well. So it doesn't, you don't have that stigma of it being a medical device. And one of the big issues that all the the enablers of this technology, it helps people with diabetes take and power, be empowered with their diabetes in order to they can monitor it in real time, they can see it's changing and react to it as well, and so they can have a better understanding of how their body's reacting to the different foods as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Well, it it is so exciting. I want to I want to dive deeper in on a little bit like okay, now story time. Take us back to uh how it started, you know, maybe what what sparked the journey, what kept you up at night, and what got you through the darkest hours?

Funding Struggles And Breakthroughs

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Well, um, so this is really embarrassing, okay, because the way that this journey started was with an extremely Heath Robinson experiment. And that experiment, so my background is in telecommunications, and prior to this, a part a friend of mine and myself, we started a company developing cancer treatment systems using microwave techniques. And we thought, as engineers do, how can we apply our engineering to a different type of biological constituent? And we thought, well, glucose, maybe we can detect that. So we we had a couple of um satellite antennas, and we placed this really compact, complex bit in the middle, which is a plastic bag, and we filled it with saline and loaded it with glucose. I mean, and we saw this shift in frequency, and we got so excited about it. And we thought, well, we can detect glucose. Typical engineers, you know, not knowing what they're doing. So I managed to uh make it a little bit more complex and and um improve the the the setup uh a bit more repeatable as such. And I managed to look get some test cells and we loaded them with blood with different glucose concentrations, and that really was the Eureka moment when we actually saw this shift in resonance, you know, in a in a bench top device, and we could see it in the microwave spectrum. Um and that's really where this journey started all those years ago. And it's been and I spent quite a few years out in the wilderness because it was that time when the bubble had burst, the dot-com bubble had burst. People were very reluctant to invest in in startups, and especially with you know, wanting to do blood glucose monitoring. Come on, look at the graveyard with with companies that are literature now. So there's a lot of hesitation, and it was literally family and friends that were sort of putting money in, winning small awards here and there, just to get across the the uh you know the path or move it move it forward. And it was only around 2015 when I got some serious investment into the business. I could then actually build a team around me, you know, bring in engineers, software, hardware engineers, regulatory people on board to actually go at this in anger. And we spent the first couple of years looking at different types of antenna structures, what would work, what wasn't going to work. And um and yes, and it was back in around 2018 that we actually settled on our particular design, and I've been working on trying to improve that that sense of design over the years. And you asked the question of what keeps me up at night, right? I I haven't done this in the classical way, in the sense that I've I haven't gone out to a VC and got a bucket load of money that will see me through for the five, six years or whatever it is. I've actually gone out to high net worth individuals. So, and the the reason behind that is they can turn the they can invest on a dime, right? So they can make that decision very quickly. It's their decision, you know, whether they decide to invest or not, rather than buy a committee and so forth. So that was really good because it meant that we could move very, very quickly in the early days. We could get this investment from high net worth individuals to move the project forward. But these people that, you know, their funds can dry up because of different economic clim as the economic climate changes and their circumstance changes. You know, they're not sitting on a war chest of a few hundred million or whatever, that you know, that they they they have limited resources. So that's been the way that this business has been funded over the years. It's sort of been drip fed, and it means that every couple of years I've got to go back out cap in hand, trying to raise more money and and and so forth from these people while the techno technology is maturing and so forth. So that really is one of my biggest rugbears, is that I've got to go out and raise money again uh rather than going and getting institutional investment. But we're at the point now that you know we're looking at getting some uh serious investment. In fact, we're in the process of trying to negotiate a loan that will actually see us through to C in marketing and beyond that into manufacturing as well. So that's quite a large war chest that we're trying to build up.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Well, let me put this in perspective from a medical viewpoint. The way I've seen glucose monitoring over my career in the year, I mean, back in the day, the only way to check blood glucose was with drawing out blood with a finger stick or or with a blood test, and it was a sort of a one-off thing. You you either put it on a strip, you send it out to the lab, and uh it was very cumbersome. And then eventually we got to continuous glucose monitors, which again required a um, you know, an uh intercorpical needle in the arm. Um, and at least they were only available by prescription, you know. And doctors were very reluctant to let people use them unless they had diabetes, you know, and people who were interested in their metabolic health and wanted to follow their glucose, which you know, there's good reason to look at your glucose, even if you don't have diabetes. These people were not allowed to do it frequently because many doctors said, no, that's you know, that's a medical device, you shouldn't do that. And finally, you know, just literally a few months ago in the United States, at least. You you guys in the in you know in Great Britain have had it uh over the counter for a while, but in the US, it just became over the counter with uh Stello and Lingo. Uh, but still it requires that that on your on your arm. It's it's interstitial, uh, it is invasive. So what you're saying, just to frame it on what a big deal this is, this is non-invasive, but it's also continuous glucose monitoring. Am I am I phrasing that right?

How The Wrist Device Works

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Absolutely right. So when you when you look at the uh Abbott Freestyle, just by way of example, it's continuous, but that doesn't mean say it's taking a reading every second, it's taking a reading every five, six seconds. Okay, so it's building up your picture, and that's due to the time constant of the blood glucose change, that's pretty sufficient, right? And that's exactly what we do in our system. So our system works in a very neat way, in the sense that a very different way as well. Whereas the the glucower device that goes on the wrist is coupled with your mobile phone and it's connected via Bluetooth. And every five minutes the device wakes up, it makes that connection with your mobile phone, and as soon as it's made that connection, it will ping a really low power signal into your body. It looks then at the reflected signal coming back, and that's been uh altered by the glucose in the body. It the device, the electronics in the device will do a little bit of a digital signal processing on it, clean the signal, and then ping it up to the mobile phone. As soon as it's done there and it's got acknowledgement that the data's been received, the device goes back to sleep. And all of this happens in just under 200 milliseconds. So it's literally like that, that the whole transactions actually happen. And in and then it wakes up every five minutes and it's rinse and repeat again. So this way we can get a battery life of around two weeks with the device. So it doesn't need to be charged during you know for that period of time. Um, but that's the way that our device is actually working and it's totally non-invasive. And one of the other things, Rob, is that because we're using RF microwave signal, it's effectively a fuel that we're transmitting into the into the body, and it's not an optical signal. So that means we're we're not hampered by the skin tones. So it's totally agnostic to skin color as well. And also because we're measuring the the the uh interrogating the blood, there's no 15-minute lag that you get with the with this, you know, the the the minimally invasive CGMs. So this really is a real-time device.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Wow, just like uh a wristwatch, but again, no needle, no interstitial anything, it's just a wristwatch. So maybe maybe explain it to me like someone who doesn't have a PhD in microwave and telecommunications. So, like basically, how did how does uh how does RF signal interrogate the uh glucose content of the blood?

SPEAKER_01 10:17

It's it basically it's matched into the the the blood as well. So the signal goes in and it literally bounces off the blood. And any variations in the it's effectively spectroscopy, right? So any time any any variation in the glucose concentration in there shifts the signal, and we're looking at that little shift. That's the perturbation that we're picking up. That's what we're interrogating.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

And and I I mean, we we've all been hearing about Apple Watch and the Raman spectroscopy patents they've had, but this is a different principle, right? It's RF. Uh but it sounds like similar, similar aspect of spectroscopy, though, that there's some uh absolutely. Yeah. And the the Apple Watch is, you know, it's long been promised, but you know, it's not, you know, not nobody knows with Apple, of course, but it doesn't appear to be any time soon. What how have you been so successful? Yet Apple hasn't, as far as is it the regulatory barriers, or it just RF technology is better than than Rama and spectroscopy, or is it I you know, what's what is your I think it's it's just been our um the fact of the matter is, you know, we we've we're using a specific technology that we're familiar with, that we know how it works and and so forth.

Engineering For Real Life Use

SPEAKER_01 11:38

It's tried and tested in different sectors, and we thought, you know, we'll apply it here. Now what we've had to do when when you have a minimally invasive device, you're actually extracting the liquid and you're doing something, you you know, you you're analyzing that. We don't have that luxury, so we've got to make sure that the the medium that our sensor makes contact with is perfect, there's a perfect connection interface, and the signal transverses into the body and back again in as if it was actually on a bench top in a fixed system. That's really our our goal with our with our technology. But what we have to account for is we've got to account for this complex element in the middle, you know, the the the body bit where people are moving and so forth. So when we first started off, uh we had a single mindset that this was we were intending on commercializing this technology. It wasn't a Thursday afternoon lab experiment that we were going to be repeating over time. It was literally we we had that mindset that we were going to commercialize this. So everything was being done or designed for manufacture right on day one. The components that we use, the setup, the materials that we're actually using. So and also we then started looking at how a user would actually use this device. So all the the movement issues, the temperature environments and so forth, we had to emulate those and we had to test the devices, the prototypes in those devices. And especially, for example, COVID worked out really well for us in that respect because we could leave the devices in the lab in environmental chambers, we could put them on robotic arms, and in fact, that's what we did, you know, to test how they responded to movement and how the test respond to humidity and temperature. And that way we could characterize materials that we were going to use, and also the behavior of some of the materials. And that's ultimately led to a design that we have today, which is quite robust in its nature and how it sits on your on your wrist. It's it's very forgiving uh in that respect. You know, so we've overcome a number of these challenges over time.

Beyond Glucose: New Biomarkers

SPEAKER_00 13:57

I I remember my medical and and college training about being exposed to concepts like a rudiment, you know, rudimentary knowledge of spectroscopy and NMR spectroscopy and all. And whenever I hear spectroscopy, I always, you know, you think, well, what other spectra can you look at? Are there I obviously we're talking about glucose today, and that's that's what our our focus is, but do you see a future where there are other compounds that that you could easily uh expand to with this device?

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Absolutely, and that's a really good question. And when we actually the in fact, the way that our um our devices actually design, the electronics is designed, it's literally a case of actually swapping a component that will allow you to look at a different component or different biological material. So we can effectively shift up in different frequencies and detect things like lactates, ketones, alcohols, and various other uh constituents like that. So, from an engineering perspective, we think it's fairly straightforward. But what we want to do is get the glucose element nail down, and then we'll move on to the other founding of uh Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

And and you're you're still on the pathway for regulatory in that that process, although uh, you know, as I understand, hopefully it will be very, very quick uh based on your experience and knowledge of the of the field. Um what um let's see, in the um you talk about obviously serving not only not only going to serve the wellness population, in other words, healthy people who want to be healthier and just look at their glucose, but you're also gonna serve uh eventually diabetic patients too who who need this for life saving. So in in a world where where diabetes is exploding, what are what are the three biggest cracks in the healthcare system you're aiming to plug with your tech? Or how do you see it changing the the healthcare world that we're in?

SPEAKER_01 16:02

So if I just look at the the UK market at the moment, UK NHS system, because that's the one I'm more familiar with, you know, NHS, the the diabetes is a huge burden on the NHS. And it's typically the secondary physiological effect that result from poor management of your diabetes, and that's what the NHS ends up treating. Now, what if we could actually take a step back and say, okay, let's treat the root cause of this, which is actually the diabetes. Well, not the but the management of your diabetes. And if we could actually improve the make a 10% improvement on that, that will be a huge saving to the NHS here in the UK. Now having a device like this is an enabler, it's an enabler for that individual who's got diabetes to turn on and say, Well, okay, maybe I shouldn't eat the sugary sweet here because it's gonna make me spike. And if I can keep my ty my glucose within my time range for a bit longer, I've got more chances of actually improving my HBA1C or 18C and reversing it if I'm a type 2 non-insulin dependent individual, then I can potentially reverse it back into a pre-diabetic state. And that's really our goal here to try and give individuals like that the tools necessary to actually try and reverse their diabetes into a pre-diabetic state. And those that are on insulin type 2s with insulin, then we want to again give them a tool that can actually help them manage their blood glucose, empower them to actually manage and control it, understand how their body reacts to different foods that they eat and and and so forth. So that's really our our our game program. And you've heard me talking about more about type twos because that's really our initial target, market with the device. And it is a medical device that we're actually going for. Because, you know, that's always been our intention right from the day on, that these are the people that need this device because it's a matter of life and death effecting for them. So that's what we're trying to we're trying to make a huge improvement to to their quality of life as well.

Regulatory Path And Timeline

SPEAKER_00 18:13

And and so to be clear, this is literally a replacement for a continuous glucose monitor. So they people will no longer need to put the needle in their arm, absolutely and and they'll be able to wear this device. And presumably uh utilization will be much higher just because there's it's non-invasive, more people are you know, will be tending to use it, and uh or even even like while you say it it's a medical device for that group, but you're also gonna apply uh the general population will have access to it. And the thing I love about it too is that uh controlling glucose with with a device like this and just getting feedback, like, you know, if I eat that oatmeal in the morning and wow, I didn't realize how you know it's gonna change behavior. And by controlling glucose behavior as as a root cause for metabolic disease, we've talked about in this program, it not only will not only improve your your chance of getting type 2 diabetes and even reverse it, but it will also have impacts on, of course, obesity, but hypertension, uh, heart attack, stroke, cancer, all sorts of disease, and mental illness, all these things are driven by glucose, dysregulation, and unhealthy lifestyle. And having this tool for people to manage their lifestyle better is is going to be truly, truly huge. So what do you see as the uh the time frame for going to market on this? When can people expect to uh see these? And will they be first appearing as prescription devices or will they first be appearing for over-the-counter use as non-medical devices? Well, maybe you could just summarize, go over that plan for us a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah, so so our initial target, as I said, is a non-insulin-dependent type two market, and here over across in the Europe, that's predominantly going to be over-the-counter purchasing. Okay, so that's the initial, you know, ultimately I do want to go capture the go for the uh type twos that are insulin dependent and also the type ones. But that's going to come with time as our device accuracy increases and improves as well. Um, and in terms of getting out to market, my anticipation is or my hope is to get something out by the end of next year. This is all predicated on our investment coming in that allows us to actually uh fast track a lot of the uh development work and and the manufacturing. And on the manufacturing side, um I've recently signed a manufacturing contract with uh global tech giant that will be, I'm not going to mention the name, but it will be obvious when when we have the press releases and and so forth, but they are huge and they've got amazing capacity and capabilities to you know producing uh uh really high quality products. So we're we're really excited about that. And they we're currently validating their manufacturing processes, which are looking really, really good at the moment. And then that will lead on to allow us to actually run clinical trials, and then the bit data from those clinic clinical trials will be used in our CE submission. So we're going for the CE first, but having said that, we're also then going once we make that submission, we're then going to run the FDA pathway in parallel.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

And and so that'll be in parallel or or will the CE arrive first, and then how soon after that will he be available in the US, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Um I'm hoping that it's it's going to be pretty similar in terms of when when it actually happens. Uh we're obviously going for the CE mark because our home territories, um, you know, and but the the FDA pathway is something that we'll you know we really do want to look at. And again, it's all predicated and getting the the the investment. I mean, once we've got the investment, it will allow us to run a couple of hairs in in parallel. And obviously, you know, we need additional resources to help us do that as well.

Raising Capital Lessons

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Yeah, and so so to be clear, you're you currently are looking for more investment at the at the present time, right? At this stage, and and and and you've as you mentioned, you've you've lived through multiple fundraising rounds and all. What are what are what are maybe one unconventional tactic that worked for you for fundraising, and maybe your or one mistake that you'd rather erase from memory?

SPEAKER_01 22:45

I think you know that I always find that sitting in front of an investor, that I mean, you know, a lot of money was raised pre pre pre-COVID. And the fact that I I I'm sitting across the table to an individual who's taking a chance to invest in me and also in the business. He wants to look at the whites of my eye and and and believe that I have the capability and the ability and the team to deliver what he's investing in. And I've always played with a straight bat, you know, and that's a cricketing term. I don't know if you're familiar with that.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

We'll translate it for the American audience.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

So, you know, I've I've always been straight with everyone that's come onto the business. I've talked to them about the risk element of it. But we've been along this journey, and each time we've mitigated against on uh against the risk. And the the investors that have been along the way have have gained confidence in our abilities and also in the technology and and believe that now we're within that that touching distance. So that's what I would say um I've I would advocate, you know, is you've got to see those people, you've got to sit in front of them and let them let them feel your passion in in in in what you're trying to do. And that's really, really important. And I don't think I've I've actually got a negative um, you know, obviously I've I've had no's where people have turned me down and said, you know, it's it's not one for uh cent and whatever. Well, that's fine, it's it's it's bound to happen, you know. So you take the good for the bad.

A Day With GlucoWare

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah, yeah. Well, imagine let's get let's go forward. Imagine it's uh 2029, let's say, and and glucoware, then be clear. The name of the product is GlucoWare, the company is AFON Technology. Um so it's 2029, GlucoWare is on millions of risks. What is a day in the life of a user look like, or how will that change change their experience?

The Next Five Years Of Wearables

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Wow. Um okay, so the only way I can relate to that is I've worn the device for two weeks, okay, and as we're gathering data, so it's really what happens to me. I wake up in the morning, I'll take the device off. Although I said to you there's a two-week charge, um, two-week battery life, I often just throw it into the charger and I go shower, get ready, come back, and then I'll put the device back on. At the moment, what we've or when I was wearing it, it was really more of data gathering. So we're we're pulling the data off and we're analyzing it and and uh running our algorithms on that. But the user will actually, when they have the device, it will show them overnight this is what their profile looked like. Well, did I have a hyper? In fact, if it if they did have a hypo, it would have alerted them and woken them up to say that you know you're having a hyper here. Um, but they'd be able to see how their blood glucose varied o over time. Uh and similar during the day, when they wake up, they have breakfast, oatmeal, as you said. You know, as it spikes, they'll be able to see it spike, they'll be able to see the reaction, how it's m progressing through the day. And we are providing uh on on the user it uh information that's fairly similar to what the Abbott and DEXCOM are are doing. And that's been quite intentional. It's not plagiarism, but it's really looking at it from a user perspective. So if you've used an Abbott freestyle device or you've used a DEXCOM, when you switch over, you don't want that whole, you know, steep learning exercise of how to relearn the you want an element of familiarity with it, right? Or how it works, or what that graph actually says and and so forth. And and a lot of that has been feedback that we've got back from clinicians as well, and said, you know, we want the same sort of thing. We don't want you guys to do anything differently. So without violating patterns, we've really got to try and navigate around that in in in some way. So that's really how a user would would actually use our device. And and I'm also hoping it's not going to be intrusive, you know, they can get on with their life. It's a it's a the the it's it's a vibrant design, it's a fashionable design. It's not um it doesn't shout out I'm a medical device. It's very much like remember the swatch watches that we had. That's the Pantone type of gamut that we're going to be using with these devices, you know. So they're really sexy looking that you can wear them with design clothes and whatever. Uh maybe there'll be a talking point, you know, conversation starter as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yeah, so so really the the the information provided is the same, the user interface will be more or less the same. It's it's it's quote continuous glucose, right? But the but the convenience of using it is what's going to be different. And that's that's really the uh the game cover. So maybe I we're kind of uh wrapping up here. We're we're in the era of wearable sponsors uh, you know, humanoid robotics, we got drivers cars in Santa Monica, and you guys are getting them in London soon, and you know, from Waymo and other places. And so um where do you see the non-invasive glucose monitoring field or just non-invasive monitoring in five five years? And and what are what are you not willing to compromise as you scale?

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Um I think what I'm not willing to compromise is uh the accuracy of the device, right? Um again, this is people's lives that we're playing with here, right? Um we're we're accountable for for that. Um what I want is a device that's accurate, that when it gives a value, it's pretty much spot on on that value. And the way I see this migrating is our device at the moment is you know, it's it's it's about that big. Uh it's the size of an Apple Watch. I want to reduce it because I want to see it on I want children to be able to wear this. Okay. Um, so I want I want to look at that pediatric market, I want to reduce the size of this device. So it's it it then isn't perfectly a a a wristwatch, it's probably a band that's that type of uh structure, and that's really what I'm actually going with with this. And ultimately, I really want to do looking forward maybe five, ten years, is I want a device that measures a whole host of biomarkers in a totally non-invasive manner, and gives you your your your health reading on your mobile phone that says, you know, your heart rate's fine, your blood glucose is okay, your lactate levels are fine, you know, your option levels are great, just with a single device, and that's really where I'm what I'd like to see with our technology.

Closing Thoughts And Vision

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah, that's a that's a great, a great vision. Well, I Want to be respectful of your time. Is there anything we haven't covered today that you you you want to mention or any points you want to bring out about this before we we we wind up the episode? Um Sabi?

SPEAKER_01 30:13

I no, I I I I think um you know I'm I'm really grateful for this opportunity to be on your on your podcast here. And I'd like to think that you'll invite me back in a few months' time and say, you know, you've had some great publicity and um you know great exposure with this Google A technology. Um I I'm so looking forward to getting this out on the market. Uh I think it's it's a game-changing technology, especially you know, having a family of diabetics as well. Something that it's great knowing that I'm doing something that can actually have it.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Oh, I didn't realize your your family has uh um yeah, my I actually my family, I have uh aunts and uncles who are type one diabetics, and of course, almost everybody is on the path to type two diabetes now in America, at least, you know, a large percentage of us because of that. So, but yeah, it's it's affecting all of our lives uh you know through that way. Yeah, definitely. But yeah, we'd love to have you back on the program, you know, when we're when you're ready to test a prototype. Well, okay, my wrist is available. But but yeah, I can't wait to to hear the you know the upcoming news and uh you know as you continue on this journey, but things are things are happening really fast. So again, thanks, Sabi. It's Avon Tech Afon Technology. Afon technology, yeah. Afon technology, glucoware is the name of the device, and and thanks, thanks so much, Sabi, for the for the great work you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Good. Anytime, though. Anytime.