Playground Talks
Playground Talks is a podcast for busy parents who want to own their parenting style!
The podcast cover topics such as how to handle tantrums and understand the WHY behind them, Why setting boundaries is so important? How to help build your child's resiliency and form healthy habits.
Tammy Afriat , the host, and the professional guests on the show share their knowledge, and provide actionable tools so you'll get both the parenting principles and practical aspects that resonate with you, give you confidence and joy in your parenting journey!
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Playground Talks
#24 Tammy afriat Interview in "Foreign-Born Mama" podcast host by Nurzhan Sterbenz; Discussing Parenting Styles, Setting Boundaries, Career Shifting, And Parenting In Different Culture!
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What are nowadays parenting challenges?
In this special episode, Nurzhan Sterbenz, a mom of a twin and the host of the "Foreign-Born Mama" podcast and I talked about different parenting styles, Nurzhan shared her childhood experiences growing up in Kyrgyzstan (Central Asia) and I shared my perspective around setting boundaries and why I transitioned from being an engineer to become a certified parenting coach by WCI (World Coach institute) .
- #4 Why Do Kids "Misbehave"? With Mariko Fairly, Part A
- #14 How Can You Help Build Your Child's Resiliency? With Dr. Mortimer
- #15 Dr.Kate Lund, The Author Of "Bounce" Talking About How To Transform Your Child's Challenges Into Strengths?
- Gabor Mate movie: Wisdom of Trauma
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Hi Tammy. Thank you so much for coming in on this episode. I'm so excited to talk to you. I got your name from a really good friend, Julie Brown, and when I told her I started a podcast and I, and it's called Foreign Born Mama, she was like, oh, you should talk to Tammy. And then I looked it up and I saw what you're doing and I was just, So excited to talk to you because there are so many things. I agree with what you do and what your philosophy and , so I should bring you on. So here we are. And so I really am grateful that you showed up today.
Tammy Afriat:Thank you so much for having me. And for giving me the feedback that you've resonate, with the the values that I'm bringing up for parents. So thanks for that.
, Nurjahn Sterbenz:I think it's just true, you know?, I guess I would like to start with, usually I like to start with a question of tell us about yourself, you know, where you from and what brought you to the us.
Tammy Afriat:So my home country is Israel, and as you said, my name is Tammy Afriat, and I have three kiddos. And then almost seven years ago, my husband got a job. In the United Set in California. And so we basically took our two kids, 10 suitcases and we just moved, we packed in a month, I think just everything. So that's why I came all the way.
Nurjahn Sterbenz:That's awesome. I feel like everyone's journey coming to the US has been so different. Like mine was, I came to do my master's degree And then I end up staying cuz I met my husband and for some people it's like they want lottery, right? So I always like to know what brought them here, and , so it's always adds a little bit to the story. I was wondering, I was looking at your background in the one pager that you sent me, and it looks like you worked on clean energy, which is really cool. Were you able to work in that area, in the US or. Too difficult to find jobs.
, Tammy Afriat:I was actually working in the clinic industry. I studied environmental engineering as my first degree and. Material and nano technology for my master degree. And then I worked in this industry and when I moved to the United State, I decided I want to be with my kids for a while. But then I worked in Stanford University in a project dealing with wastewater treatment. Making. available for agriculture, so purifying the water. And so that's what I did for a while, and then as soon as I delivered my third child, then I quit again.
Nurjahn Sterbenz:I mean, it makes sense, right? I. feel like I had to make a lot of changes as soon as the kids arrived in my life. And priorities have to shift., like what's important has shifted and the work became, secondary, , because the kids were taking up the main attention so yeah, I can see why that would happen.
Tammy Afriat:Yeah, it's all to be aligned with your values and so yeah, I think we're both at the same page where family comes first. So that was a no question for me.
Nurjahn Sterbenz:Yeah, but that is actually. is A hard thing to do. It's a choice, right? If you think about it, cuz a lot of the moms, they're working, well, like some people cannot do it right? It's also a privilege, like I have to admit that I am very privileged that my husband works and I'm able to stay home and take care of the kids because some moms can't really do that. And then in some cases it could be a personal choice. Some moms can't really be was a kid for more than let's say, in a couple of hours and it drives him crazy, and I have those days too, so yeah.
Tammy Afriat:I told you here. Yeah, in my home country, we would have to work both of us in order to provide for the family. And then once we moved, we had the privilege to decide. So My husband and, and I thought that we are not willing to have the kids with, you know, daycares for so many hours a day. So we choose that I'm gonna stay and I will nurture them spatially when we just move it. And I knew there are no caring grandparents around, like, it's only me and my husband to support those kids. So I was really clear, like I'm. For them at those moments.
Nurjahn Sterbenz:That's beautiful. I mean that shows that first of all like self-awareness and just knowing, , your values and understanding what's important for you. So it's, it's nice to see that and I'm glad that you were able to do that in the US . Do you see any, , differences in parenting between Israel and us?
, Tammy Afriat:first of all, cultural wise here, the holidays are different and so when I just came, I was like, what's Halloween? What do you do? But in terms of cultural differences, I think boundaries are different, and I'm not saying it it's wrong or right, I'm just stating that that's the different that I'm finding. For example, if I want to set a plate date with some friends of mine, it will take us, you know, a few sometimes weeks to schedule the time and see that it works for everyone. But with Israeli's friend, it would be like, are you available? Great. Come over. And that's another piece of, I think personal boundaries are different. In Israel, you would welcome into your private space right away. That's what the cultural expectation is. And again, in the United States it's just different. You take it more slowly. So I find. Pros and cones for both of them.
Nurjahn Sterbenz:Yeah, , I could totally see that , I actually had this, talk with my husband where, you know, if I wanna plan an event like play date or something, , it's already feels stressful, but I wish sometimes because I just never know, , will I wake up with good energy,? Or will I feeling okay cuz of the health issues? But some days I'm like, oh, it's Saturday. Like, I feel so good. Why don't we invite this friends over? And my husband's like, well you can't do that.
Like, it's like 9:00 AM and I said, well we can do it in the afternoon. And he. Well, That's not possible. That's not, that's rude. So there is no this easy flow, uh, fluidity in days. And so everything is so scheduled and rigid a little bit, which I, found, it hard to interact and. Connect with others, but at the same time when, on the days when, , you have so much going on I am grateful that I can protect my boundaries,, that I'm not overstepped. Cuz if my mom or my neighbors, from Stan lived, they probably would've bothered me all the time and I would've, that would've drove me nuts.
Tammy Afriat:Yeah, it's like the door is open whatsoever., it's totally that it, yeah. We are coming from in that's aspect the same culture and also birthday parties. You would invite people in months before and in Israel, no. You would say, , next weekend, come over, there's a birthday going on. Like there is not a huge preparation in order to do.
Nurjahn Sterbenz:Yeah, exactly. So there's pros and cons and you know, it's kind of affects your parenting too, because in the midst of it you're trying to find. This balance, right? Because you have this one set of way you were raised and have boundaries, and then you come to a completely different cultural expectation of boundaries. And so how you navigating that? I'm wondering how you're navigating parenting. challenges
Tammy Afriat:so when we talk about nowadays, parenting challenges, I think there are some things that you can take into it. it's different generation It's different culture, . Not only because I moved from a different country, but parenting style is d. things that have been accepted in previous generation, like hitting your child, punish, , or yelling are not as , accepted now. And that leaves parents with less tools to how to parent, you know? And the way we were parented is different that we want to parent. So if there is no model, like we need to really dive into. is my parenting style will look like. So that's one thing that I acknowledge and that was really obvious to me when I moved to the United States, that I need to be more clear with myself of how do I want to parent? And that's why I did the podcast by the way. I'm like, okay, so many. Not reliable research that I want to interview psychologists and marriage and family therapies and all those people that will give us a bunch of tools and principles that so it'll help a parent. to choose, okay, that's gonna work for me. Let's try it on. So that's one thing. And the other thing that you've mentioned, is to balance, family and career, which, , there could be a whole episode about why this. Transition has happened, but just generally speaking, you know, the traditional general roles have changed. And nowadays, sometimes two parents needs to work or choose to work.. And that leads to less parent, being available for the kids. And in addition, people are working. There is more expectation from the parent to entertain the kids to have a healthy diet, to be patient, to be a role model. So the expectation from parenthood , is much higher. And that's why I think there's more pressure. on parents, and with that comes the guilt part, , which you can't do it all like I was there, I was working full-time job. I have. two kids at the time and that was a lot. Like I would wake up five 30 in the morning going to sleep, I think midnight. And my day was like every single moment I needed to do something. So it was really hard., and to do everything is just too hard. And again, that's why I think those different parenting style. How to balance your career and the guilt part that comes into it really made me understand, okay, I want to shift my career to be a parent coach, and I want to provide free, awesome resource. For parents, which is the podcast, and also to provide the one-on-one coach if someone wants, so that's to your question, how do I see nowadays, parenting challenges.
Nurjahn Sterbenz:You brought up like two really important points that I was hoping to talk to you about. And one was the, expectation so for a long time since I became a mom in the US I struggled. I really struggled to parent and I had a phase where I thought, There was something wrong with me. Like all the moms got their shit together. They're like, they look good. They're doing it good and I'm just failing it. Right? And it can affect you so much. And now that I am on this personal journey, I'm realizing more and more through like women, like you and other, , like Dr. Tali and I'm reading more parenting books, that the expectations in the US are unrealistic. It's impossible. Sustain them. If you look at it, , , it's so much geared on perfectionism and you can do it all, but you, can also look great. Right? And it puts so much pressure on moms that I just didn't even realize how much I have bought in into it and I was just putting so much pressure on myself. To be perfect and so I had to really drop that, but , I dropped it after realization that it's not about me, but there are also like structural and societal stuff happening in addition to my cultural baggage, that have been playing a part. And so that was really helpful. And then the second part that I really liked that you explained,, and you touched on, was. Me coming from a developing country with, , this one blueprint of parenting style that I received from my parents, good or bad, I don't wanna name it, but I got this parenting model, right? And so I came to the US and us had completely different parenting model than Kirsten Like you were saying, if my kids is not listening to me in Kirstan, , we would yell and make him do it or we would, you know, hitting is also not out an option. It's a, it's a very different parenting style and so coming to the US in the US, that is not accepted. And so I. Found myself having this urge to act and that's why I get angry. Right. And then have to like, hold myself every time. And it's been super hard. And I was thinking in a way now I found myself having to start over and I made the podcast episode about, , parenting authentically where , I'm realizing that it comes down to How do I wanna parent with what I've got and what is happening here , and creating something that is authentically mine and that I feel good about it. And I think in some ways you are sharing the same things in the podcast when you're talking about parenting styles.
Tammy Afriat:Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think.. So Israel also heating is not acceptable and yelling. You know, Everyone knows you're not supposed to yell at your kids, but sometimes it just happens. And going back to parenting style. So if you look at the spectrum, there is this permissive parenting, which you can't even say no to your kids, which is the, opposite side of being very, disciplinarian and, you know, kind of expecting my child to comply with me because that's what I said, period. So those are two ages. And the medium part, which , I'm hoping to, be there most of the days, , is to be authoritative and it's circled back to boundaries, and that's part of , my own, , principles and belief as a parent is that, first of all, I want to set the boundaries for myself. That means that I'm being really self-aware when I'm stressed of work I have deadline. And at those moment I am capable of saying, you know, I need 10 minutes break, or I need to go do something really urgent at work. Let's put a timer of 20 minutes and we'll be back together. Which sounds totally different than yelling at my kids. Just leave me alone. I need some time. You know? So talking about parenting style, that's the first thing that I'm thinking. It's setting and knowing my own boundaries. So I., can explain and communicate them to my kids. And that's modeling for my kids, which is another huge part of my own parenting belief, is that if I am dysregulated, I'm overwhelmed with something and I'm, you know, just losing it. That's what my kids sees, you know, they will do just the same. And so I really have to be intentional of how I manage my. Emotional stats. And the other part of it is I feel okay to set the boundaries for my children, but here I'm really paying attention to, do I set the boundary and hold boundary or is it a power struggle that I'm going into? And what I mean by that is that, boundaries are attached with values. So for example, , my value of having a healthy eating habits is important to me. That's a boundary that I am. put, you know, and that means that if I'm going to the grocery, , store and my kids will yell at me that he wants another, you know, the chocolate, I will be, you know what? You choose one, sweet. And that's what we're having today. And it's okay to let him even cry in the grocery store because I'm really complete with the boundary that I'm. for him, cuz I have the long-term vision of where do I want him to be. So just to wrap it up, yes, boundaries has two sides. It's the one that I'm setting for myself and the one that I'm setting for my child, because that's my role. As a parent it's to help him establish all those healthy habits.
, Nurjahn Sterbenz:absolutely, Yeah, you, you put it so beautifully and I couldn't agree more cuz I think I'm making pretty good progress on setting boundaries for myself, which is something that I was not modeled to by my parents or anything I could never remember my mom. Taking any time off or saying, you know what Mommy has needs and she needs to go take care of herself, or if she reacted, she could recognize and say, mommy's upset right now, and she, she's gonna go and have some me time to calm herself down because she needs to do that so that she can able to talk to. In a positive and more, kind way cuz otherwise, you know, my MCD brand will take over and I will be like saying things that I don't mean to . And so that is definitely case, but I am working on setting boundaries with kids. It's harder than I thought it would be, , because they know how to push the buttons, you know? And so if your boundaries are not strong, they will test that. And they will show that holes every time. And then I'm like, Ooh, okay, we need to work there. I need to get better there. So it's a evolving. Process. It's never just like one set.
Tammy Afriat:Yeah, well, it does take., being consistent from the parents and the way I look at it, I'm kind of, you know, I don't think of, oh, why did he do it to me? I'm like, that's his role in the world, to push those boundaries so he can learn as well. What's his boundaries as, you know, what can he tolerate and what not? So it's kind of a game, and again, it's my role to have the contain. For the child to say, for example, we talked about the food. So I would say, you know, this is what we have on the table. So it's the container where I put some vegetables, some carbs, some proteins, but he get to choose what does he want and what's the amount he wants. So that goes deeper in the boundaries setting where , I'm putting the frame, but I let go of me controlling everything that's happening with my kids.
Nurjahn Sterbenz:Yeah, exactly, because you wanna put the boundaries and create that space, but you wanna make sure that he's able to feel empowered to make choices and to be himself right. If you are too constrictive, the space is too constrictive., the kid will not thrive, will not show up, . , so yeah, it's , it explains so much. Thank you so much for explaining that. And this beautifully brings to another point I was gonna,, talk to you about is I am learning through my journey that my level of self-awareness and growth is actually one of. Possibly best denominator of my kid's success in life. It's not classes that he has to go, like art and soccer, like, you know, the culture has all these classes, right? It's not school. But I'm just seeing how much I, as a mom, my level of conscious work and growth has a huge impact on my kids and how they will thrive in their lives. So I was thinking if you could share your thoughts on this.
Tammy Afriat:Yeah, . I totally agree with you. I think that self-awareness and the fact that we. Acknowledging, between ourself saying, you know what, whatever he just did was really triggering for me. and There could be a good reason for me to respond and, you know, set the boundary. But if I yelled at him, that's on me. That's not his fault. Anyway, so I agree with you that I was doing a lot and I'm still doing this self-awareness work of., being the parent that I wanna be and responding from a very logical, and from a vision point of where do I wanna see my kid and what skills I want him to have
Nurjahn Sterbenz:yeah, exactly. And you know, one of the things I had to recently learn is that, you know, how being positive, always positive. And I had this issue with it and I couldn't understand,, that's not possible. We cannot be always positive. What about the anger and all the other emotions? Are we gonna shut them down and say No? We have to always be because then we don't allow our kids to express their feelings and that. Totally unhealthy and it's gonna backfire probably that's what happened to me growing up.
Tammy Afriat:I actually had a great episode about resilience because it just, it's exactly what he said. You know, I grew up in a family that my father was a very strong person. I would never see my parents cry. And pretending that everything is just okay all the time. that., a non-realistic way of living and operating life, And so. after talking to a psychology doctor, George Dana Mortimore, she's great and there is a great episode. So basically what she taught me that being resilient doesn't mean that everything is so perfect all the time. It just means that you have the tools to overcome whatever negative emotions you are experiencing, so those emotion doesn't, it doesn't takes you too much time to overcome those and that goes to positivity that positive thinking is a great strategies, but sometimes we need to acknowledge that now I'm upset and that's okay to be upset, , And then you have two tools to move on and to say, okay, so what are the good things that I could learn from this?, frustrating moment that I had. One of the tools, that we learned is to look at it as a learning curve and, and if someone wants, he can listen to the whole episode there. I think at least five or six strategies that she came up with.
Nurjahn Sterbenz:That's awesome. Your, , last comment brought to my attention., you know, I'm always looking through the foreign born mom perspective, right? Someone who grew up, probably in a traumatic and , like poverty environment. And I was thinking like they're resilient and they had to overcome. A lot in their life, but then their coping strategies that they acquired through childhood their coping strategy that led them to be resilient., and survive their countries and their traumatic, , experiences is, now not applicable. in the new setting in the us so I was wondering if you have any comments , on that
Tammy Afriat:so I was actually listening. Mentioned trauma. So I was listening to , Matt. Exactly. So Yeah, exactly. Though he's the expert of trauma and I was listening to him and you mentioned, you know, coming from poverty, that are, you know, our essential thing for living. And that's obvious that whoever. From that background has trauma. But I really want to point out the gray area that Gabor Matte mentioned, which is, , if you were a sensitive child and your Emotional needs weren't met, that's also at some point, , trauma. And again, that's a great episode and he has a movie now. So I'm highly recommend to listen to that. And for me, the mind blowing stuff Okay. Was behavioral science. Have you heard about that?
Nurjahn Sterbenz:I think little bit, but I would like to know more.
Tammy Afriat:Okay. So I knew about it because one of my kids during the pandemic, challenge, academic challenge, which led to some behavioral challenge. And it was clear for me that both of us are hopeless., so I seek an extra help and then I discover behavioral science and. I had some parenting training on that. For example, I discovered the 4 a reason why kids behave. It's, it's like a must.
, Nurjahn Sterbenz:you can quickly share it with us.
Tammy Afriat:Well there is an episode with a specialist. She's a behavioral. Yeah, she's a licensed behavioral scientist.
Tammy:this function of behavior is actually a discipline that is being taught in applied behavioral analysis.
Tammy Afriat:And she talked about for reasons, so for example, when you took this as a tool and you have a, a way to analyze what's going on with my kids, is this because he wants an attention? Is this because he now wants the ice cream? And I said, no, is this because he needs, , sensitive., stimulation., so I'm saying and mentioning that because those tools is applicable no matter what the background is. So that's why I'm thinking that knowing those tools can help parent,
Nurjahn Sterbenz:Oh, I love that. I love that. I'm gonna listen to that episode.
Tammy Afriat:We can attach to the show notes cuz this is a must episode. I'm telling you, this is one of reason , that I've done this podcast is to have that specific tool out there.
Nurjahn Sterbenz:Oh, I love that. And that's why I love your work because as foreign born moms, , I feel like we need specific tools that can equips us to feel more confident about our parenting. And I cannot agree more with you on that., and I guess what was a gabo. Whom I also read books, and I love he focuses on trauma and I watched his movie and you guys should definitely watch his movie on trauma but the Move, yeah. Wisdom of trauma. And what helped me was that movie is, when I watched it, I was able to access compassion. Like I realized in that moment how much trauma we had. And just like when you're looking. Someone if you met a homeless person, right? He brings a lot of homeless people, , in. And other people with,, traumatic background. And I was like, oh, wow. And so I think for the first time at that moment, I was able to access compassion and just say, you know what? All these things I am doing, you know, behaving, it's not because something wrong, it's because I had really hard childhood trauma. To be able to recognize that and, and feel compassion for myself really allowed me. To look at myself differently, and then from then on, after I was able to, acknowledge and process that I was able then to say, okay, given what I have, , all the , the abusive role modeling that I received, and given what I am now and all the access I have, so what, what should I do? What can I do and how do I want it? And so that was like a really interesting bridge for me to come to this one. And so you just brought up that memory with a movie. So thank you so much. So let's talk about your podcast. This beautifully Ties in Na was a podcast., could you tell us a little bit, how did you find yourself on this journey? And we can a little bit, dive in a little bit into like, what's the podcasting about?
Tammy Afriat:Sure. Thanks for asking. Yeah, I'm really passionate about this podcast and I always loved talking about it.. well basically, as I told you before, my background was in engineering, but at the same time I was investing time and going. Parenting workshop, reading books and stuff like that. And I felt like I'm a pretty much educated parent, But then Covid hit and then two things happened. The first was covid heat. When I was an exhausted parent at the time, my youngest was one year old and he was a very intense baby. I chose to stay with him the whole year. I felt like that's what I wanna do. But a full year, I was like, okay, I'm done. I wanna go back to work. And then Covid hit and I got all my three kids back home. Yay, . And then I became a teacher and I did some artwork and cook all the time, like never stop being in the kitchen as well. So I was exhausted. Mentally and physically and everything. And then I discovered the podcast and I became addicted to podcast. I think it was a life change for me because I could hear some fun stuff that would lift my spirit, but I could also get some information, some really, for example, there was a,, Nurjahn Sterbenz: Great.
, Tammy Afriat:podcast about C B T, cognitive behavioral therapy that really helped me do this, you know, self-development work, like I could really have a progress done. So I was amazed how powerful, reliable resource is podcast, and I was like, wow, I wanna do it. And then the other thing that happened is, I told you that I had some really parent. Challenges with one of my kids and I discovered this behavioral science and other things, other tools, and I was like, , no, I think everyone should know that it's a must and that's why I decided to make my career shift to be a parenting coach and to provide. Free resource with psychologists, , that's the podcast. So parents could use that. And in addition to provide one-on-one session or group session so parents could really have the joy of being a parent and the confidence that they know what they're doing.
Nurjahn Sterbenz:I love that. I love that. I mean, Always advocate for my friends that everyone used to have a therapist. But I think like if you are a mom, I think you should allow yourself to have help in parenting too. Especially if you feel like you are not equipped that you don't know what to do it. So I feel like a lot of moms find themselves in overwhelm, like feeling helpless and feeling like they're failing. And so I wonder. I wonder what kind of challenges you see moms facing through your work.
Tammy Afriat:So I think we touched that before, and I think the part of how do., decide what kind of parent I wanna be, what's the option that I have? So this parenting style, different parenting style is one thing that we touched, and the balancing with family that we also touched is another part. And the fact that there are so many things out there that you really work, you need to work hard to decide, which is a reliable resource for. and not just get, and also you can have one question and you see different article says different thing about the topic.
Nurjahn Sterbenz:information
Tammy Afriat:yeah, I think, yeah, there is a cognitive pressure of making so many choices of who do I listen, which, which style do I like? I think it's, it could be overwhelming and that's why. Um, I wanted to have this podcast that hopefully will be the go-to for parents. Says, okay, this is my problem. I'll, you know, just type the, the problem, I'll get my answers, and it's reliable and it's clear, and it's not more than 30 to 40 minutes, most of episodes., and then, yeah, we also talked about the guilt. You asked what are the challenges. So yes, guilt is another part. And the fact that you need some affirmation from psychology says, yeah, it's okay for your kid to cry. You know, , you know, he throwing in tantrum in public. That's okay., you don't have to back up. You don't need to let your boundaries go because he's yelling in public. No, just be confidence with what you believe and what you're doing. So I think those are the main thing that I'm seeing.
Nurjahn Sterbenz:Yeah, I agree with all of that. And I do think your podcast is actually, I like that it's shorts, like, to the point and you have tips and you bring up great experts. And so that's why I was so excited to share you on my podcast because I was like, we need help in that area. And I think that sometimes one of the things I found useful in my life at least, is I constantly face. Information overload. And for someone who come from a traumatic background, it's really already hard to focus on like one thing, right? It can trigger you. And so what I do is if I have too many options, , I'm just gonna choose one. And I'm just gonna go with it and I'm just gonna get the best out of it. And so in parenting wise, I have one podcast that I listen to and I just added yours because I was like, okay, these two things are giving me for now is support in the knowledge I need., so I really appreciate what you're doing I love the, all the experts, so hopefully our listeners will also tune in and subscribe to your podcast and start getting help that they need so that they can feel more joyful and confident in their parenting. So I love that. Thank you so much for your work.
Tammy Afriat:Well, I would love to hear also the feedback from you and the, you know, listeners, if their specific topic that they want the podcasts to cover, then I would love to hear all that
Nurjahn Sterbenz:Yo. Me too. I'm like, I'm constantly asking for feedback, but either moms are too busy. maybe we come from cultures where we don't really provide feedback or comment like we . I don't know yet. I'm still working on figuring out, but definitely,, listeners, if you guys loved anything that, , you hear on Tammy's podcast, Louis review or even reach out to her with anything you wanna learn more, cuz then, then she can find a specific expert to talk about that. So, Tammy, this was. Wonderful., I probably would've talked to you more and more, but I wanna be mindful of the time, so I really appreciate that you showed up today and shared all your knowledge and expertise and shared your journey. Thank you so much.
Tammy Afriat:Thank you so much for having me
Nurjahn Sterbenz:thank you.
