Exploring the Wounded Healer Phenemenon of Dietitians Who Suffer From Eating Disorders (with Co-Host Hannah Saffold, RDN)

Join me in this 2 part series with Hannah Saffold, RDN, LD. Hannah and I co-host this episode on the battles dietitians are facing daily with disordered eating/eating disorders. Hannah is an experienced dietitian with a mission to promote healthier relationships with food among dietitians and dietitians-to-be. Together, we share our personal experiences with  disordered eating and lift the lid on some shocking industry statistics.

The conversation takes a deep turn when we explore the 'wounded healer' archetype, a phenomenon that's surprisingly common in the dietetics, fitness, health, and therapeutic fields. The discussion unveils the often unspoken judgment and shame experienced by nutrition students and dietitians wrestling with their own disordered eating. 

If you are grappling with disordered eating, or suspect that you might have an eating disorder, you're not alone. We're here to support you, to stand by you, and to help you navigate this journey. Tune in as we unravel the complexities of being in this industry.

Join us in part 2 as we talk about the nuances of intuitive eating as well as the concerns we have around some of the new(ish) culture shifts around the intuitive eating space.

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TOPICS COVERED 👇 

• [1:14] Hannah’s journey through her professional career
• [4:49] Lifting the lid on shocking statistics about dietitians and eating disorders
• [7:12] Why do so many dietitians struggle with eating disorders?
• [9:30] The gray area of coaches who still need more recovery vs are recovered
• [15:07] Michelle’s story through disordered eating and her career
• [21:07] Dietetic students - a missed opportunity for ED recovery?

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Transcript

Michelle: 0:00

Welcome. Today is a really fun episode. We are two dietitians that both have a podcast and we are both gonna be hosts and guests today.

Hannah: 0:10

Hopefully it's not too confusing. I think our voices our voices will be different enough that hopefully people can keep us apart.

Michelle: 0:18

Of course. Yeah, that should help. So I'm Michelle Yates, I'm Hannah Saffold and we are here to talk about things like intuitive eating and everything that comes along with that. There's a lot of things that come along with that that I think Hannah and I have been able to talk about privately and just process together. That is going on in this space and that can be confusing for clients, confusing for professionals, and we just want to be able to talk about it and have a space to hopefully help other professionals or other clients who are confused about this process feel like they can process it a little bit better too. So I'm excited to dive in. Hannah. Let's talk about you and your background. I want to tell the listeners who don't know you who you are and what you do and why.

Hannah: 1:05

Awesome. I'm really excited for this conversation, Michelle. It's been a lot. We've been connected for a while and we finally hit record, yeah.

Michelle: 1:14

I know.

Hannah: 1:14

Yeah, so I'm Hannah Saffold and yeah, I've been a dietitian since 2006. So it's been a long time. And I started out working in pediatrics. I worked in oncology bone marrow transplant, gi and that's where I started working with patients with eating disorders in their outpatient clinic and really enjoyed it. At the same time, I was a new dietitian and I had also been healing my own relationship with food and my body and it was kind of a convergence of factors where that was healing, that was in a good. I was in good spot with that and I started working with the eating disorder patients and I loved it and I kind of knew that's the direction I was going to go when I was ready and I went and then I jumped in.

Hannah: 2:02

So after that position I worked in private practice and at several different eating disorder treatment centers and I loved it. It was great. It worked out and I started teaching at a community college and kind of piecing it together, doing some nutrition education with those students, which was another way that I could plant seeds and spread some information around how to work on our relationship with food and our body. You know, not just learning the facts about nutrition, because we know that it is so much more than that. So I've continued teaching since I think it's been about nine, ten years now and working with patients in this space, clients in this space. I've worked at I guess now it's been two teaching hospitals and different eating disorder programs.

Hannah: 2:54

So yeah, now I'm launching into the space of working on changing some of our norms in our education and at least spreading awareness around how important it is for us as nutrition professionals to have a good relationship with food and our bodies coming into the field. Because I noticed that a lot of us, including myself, have come to this work from those places of our own suffering and being able to heal that. So I'm hoping that by spreading awareness I can help alleviate some suffering for nutrition students or dietitians early on who may still be grappling with some of their own issues with food. So that's called the Nutrition Insight Project and that's something I'm working on, as well as continuing to work with one-on-one clients directly through my eating disorder work. So that's kind of a little bit about me. I'm a mom, I have two young kids and I love trails and being in nature and stuff like that. That's more like the non-work stuff.

Michelle: 4:00

I always see you like walking on a beautiful trail and I'm like man that looks nice. I'm in Nebraska. I'm like in the cornfields and like pavements and it's not anything like what you've got around you In the US.

Hannah: 4:17

I am in the Denver area.

Michelle: 4:19

Now.

Hannah: 4:19

I'm in the Pacific Northwest, so Eugene, eugene, oregon, that's part of it is like when I'm out there, I want to share that joy with people Like if they're on their phone, looking at social media or whatever it's like. There's like, oh, maybe like a take a deep breath, there's some trees. There's, hopefully, a refreshing message.

Michelle: 4:39

I love that intentionality that's awesome.

Hannah: 4:43

Also convenience, because I'm out there already, so I'm like okay, record a little ditty here.

Michelle: 4:49

And Hannah, I love that you brought up your what I just love your mission in general to help dietitians and dietitics, students to and, you know, other nutrition professionals to work on their own relationship with food. And I remember reading shoot, I wish I had the stat. Maybe you know it, but there's some sort of crazy statistics about how many dietitians are exhibiting signs of disordered eating and eating disorders. Do you happen to know that off the top of your head? What is it?

Hannah: 5:13

Yes, because I've I developed this through my master's program. I think this was what you could call my thesis, I suppose. So the statistics it depends on what you know, what you're measuring, but it looks to be about two thirds of dietitians, so not just students. So this is people who've already become dietitians, show some signs of orthorexia, struggling with that relationship with food, or have had an eating disorder in the past or currently. So about two thirds 70% if we kind of put that together.

Hannah: 5:48

So and you know it's just, it was a survey and I'm after taking my research methods master's core master's course. You know there are some bias that comes with survey studies in terms of response rates and selection bias in terms of that, and at the same time I've seen it in the field and it's there. You know, we can the numbers, we can kind of, we can assume there's a plus or minus there and then at the same time, it is concerning that people who are tasked with helping others with their relationship with food appear to be currently struggling themselves.

Michelle: 6:26

That is very concerning. And it's yeah, because what we see on social media is like a lot of people coaching on how to have disorder dating. They think it's healthy, right, and it's coming from their own place of having a stroke, a terrible relationship with food, and so it's a big bummer that our profession is also struggling and it's like man, we're supposed to be the the expert. But I mean just what a need that is, you know, to be able to speak to those professionals and make sure that they have a healthy relationship with food before they go on to teach on clients and I say this from personal experience. I'm a part of that statistic Like if I was in that survey, I would have also checked off.

Michelle: 7:12

Yes, you know like I'm struggling and I feel like I mean I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Why are it's kind of like a chicken and an egg thing, right? Like do we think that the profession itself is breeding disordered habits or do we think that disordered habits is what brings people into the profession? I'd love to get your thoughts on that.

Hannah: 7:35

Yes, I don't think we know. I think you're right. It's kind of a chicken and an egg thing. It's like if you're already kind of obsessed with food or working on your own relationship with food and are attracted to studying nutrition, like that's one thing. But you're right, and I think that's one of the things that I think is really important. Like, through the process, does it worsen? Does it worsen disordered eating, like, does our training worsen it? Or I've also heard some cases where people have gone through their education and what they were taught was actually more liberal than what they were doing themselves in that moment. So obviously that's an issue too and I just, yeah, I don't think we really can say what it is.

Hannah: 8:16

You know, I do think that part of that is when you're touched personally by some area, whether that's psychology or nutrition or social work, public health, whatever education, you know when you're touched personally by something and when you're looking at what you want to do for a career. I think a lot of fields are that way, where you know they have this wounded healer archetype, where it's like I have had a wound and I've healed. Well, hopefully you have healed. Then you are then continuing to share that, what you've gained and share that healing with others. So I don't think it's unique to dietetics.

Hannah: 8:58

I think you know when we look at personal training, we look at the fitness space. I think there's a lot of similarities there, even like doctors and health. A lot of us have been touched deeply by these certain areas. I know what you're mentioning about us on. When you see professionals, you know you see people on social media. I'm new to the social media space. In terms of dietetics I'm like a baby in that way where it's like I've been on like six months with my work account, which is so different than right like your personal friends and family account.

Hannah: 9:30

For me there's obviously a distinction there, and I started getting into, you know, looking at different accounts, and I was and I'd like to know what you think about this, because I've seen some accounts where it really is focused on a lot on that person's healing, so they're not necessarily. Some of them are recovery coaches, some of them are it's just purely to share their eating disorder recovery and I have had a lot of concerns around that because I was just thinking about the pressure that that puts on that person who is healing and maybe they think of it as like it's accountability for my recovery and yet just to have something so such like that broadcast on the stage of social media.

Hannah: 10:19

I get like that people want to inspire others and find community and therapeutically, though like when I look at it from a clinician standpoint, I get really worried. And then I see posts where some people are like breaking down, where they're like it hasn't been easy, I am struggling, and I just I get, yeah, I get worried. I know it's not my job to like support everyone, like I'm not the internet, like mama here, but I do as a clinician and in the eating disorder space I just I get, I get worried when I see that yeah, it's just become such a big thing where they have huge audiences and then they're immediately transitioning to now I'm a coach.

Hannah: 10:59

And I'm like I don't know and I think there is powered, obviously, of having been through something to have this level of empathy. And at the same time, I'm like, are you help? Like and I'm not here to say you're not solid in your recovery, but man, how important is it to be so solid when you're then being tasked to help others and be exposed to all of that that comes with that?

Michelle: 11:23

So, anyway.

Hannah: 11:24

What are your thoughts on that?

Michelle: 11:26

yeah, I think I've definitely had thoughts like that too, especially when somebody is very newly recovered and it's like, oh, I was struggling so much a year ago and I'm like, whoa, that was a year ago, that's like really recent and and just like, as you know, recovery is, it takes time and effort and there's, you know, relapses, a part of recovery, and it's just like it's not a one and done thing where you're just 11 months ago I decided to turn my life around.

Michelle: 11:58

In the last 11 months I've been so great at this and now I can like coach on people but but like playing devils out to get here. I do think that when somebody has that empathetic approach, it's so powerful especially and the disorder dating space, because there's so much shame around it that I think it's really helpful to the potential client or to the follower, to whoever, to feel connected to that person and feel like, oh, they get it, they understand, because most of us, when we're going through it and we're in the thick of it, feel really alone because we don't want to talk about it right. So I think that can be helpful In the sense of just building trust and community. But, yeah, from a professional standpoint, one can just hope you know that they're in a good enough place and solid enough that Assisting others is something that is ethical.

Hannah: 12:56

Yes, yes, yeah yeah, and I think that's part of the work I'm trying to do with the nutrition insight project. Is, like you mentioned, that shame? Or it's like I think, as nutrition students and dietitians like how much more isolating it is to have disordered eating when you are Studying it, paying for your education, getting the credentials, supposedly helping others, and yet when you come home or when you're figuring out what to eat yourself and you have these behaviors that are that aren't aligned with that part of your identity is a you know dietitian or student.

Hannah: 13:31

so it's like another layer that I talked about in terms of like another layer of judgment and shame that we can have if we are struggling. So I think that's what I'm trying to do with bringing it up and having this awareness around, if you are studying nutrition and struggling, that you're not alone and that is.

Hannah: 13:49

It is more common than we think. And then of course, that flip side of that is like there is support and there's and there's another way to heal. There's a way to heal that. There there's help, so trying to find that support for people.

Michelle: 14:02

And it's tough because I, you know, I've talked to dietitians who are. They come to me seeking that professional support and they feel well. First of all, I'm just like kudos to you. I know how hard that is to admit first of all that you're struggling, as in any type of individual, but especially as a dietitian, because I think there's this expectation that or maybe we just put it on ourselves that we should have it all together and that we shouldn't be struggling and and also that if we are, that will be able to get ourselves out of it.

Michelle: 14:33

And that might be true for some people, but in general it's so different when it's yourself. You know like you can tell your client or your best friend or a loved one what you think is best for them, but to do it To yourself is a whole other story and sometimes you just really need that professional to step in and be a sounding board for you and, you know, show your blind spots and make you feel like I'm not crazy. You know I love that you're doing this work because I think it's so important thank you.

Hannah: 15:07

I want to hear more about what you do, so I got to do my long intro and we kind of rift off for a while. Michelle, why don't you tell everyone I know your audience is probably familiar with you but For my audience, michelle, tell us a little bit about like you as a dietician, as a human, yeah yeah, okay, so I'll start with the dietician part.

Michelle: 15:29

I really I resonate so much with your story and so I'm riffing on it so much because I was that dietician that got into dietetics from the disordered place. I really wanted to. I was a self proclaimed healthy person and was already thinking about food 24 seven and so then I learned that there's this profession where you actually get to Show others how to eat, and I was like, well, that sounds perfect for me, because I really think about food all the time. This is great. I might as well get paid for it, and I mean other than that, I was genuinely interested in the field and in helping others. I thought about being a nurse, but then I was like I don't want to, like that's pretty dirty like and gross, like a lot of germs going on there, so I decided not to do that. And dietetics is a great, it's just much more fun. So anyway, I got into it, so excited to know what the perfect diet was. I was just so jazzed to like get into the nutrition courses. I couldn't wait to get done with my general education stuff and, and the nutrition classes were always my favorite, but then I don't know like it really I ended up taking this class actually on eating disorders, which it was an elective and that's an issue that should have been a core part of the curriculum, not an elective, but it is what it is.

Michelle: 16:50

I took it and I was going through diagnostic criteria of, you know, pretty much any of the restriction based disorders I really resonated with and I was like I had been interested in eating disorders for years and I knew I wanted to work in that field.

Michelle: 17:05

But it was the first time I'd ever really thought about my own habits and my own approach to food and realize that maybe I wasn't as quote unquote healthy as I thought I was, because mentally I don't think I was doing too hot. You know, I was really starting to see through the cracks a bit and so Intuitive eating was actually very healing for me. I think somebody brought it up in a college course, potentially I'm not 100% sure how I got introduced to it, but that was. That was enough, honestly, for me, in combination with some just relationships in my life that were really healing and being able to be around other dietetic students who, like you know, my perception is if you're going to school to be a dietician, you also care about health and you're also the picture of health, right and so which isn't always true, but that was my perception at the time. So to see those people also enjoying their life with food and not being stressed out about food, I was like, wow, I didn't know that was possible.

Michelle: 18:12

To be healthy and not counting your calories every day and shooting for a caloric goal and and you know, it was just. It was healing for me to be able to experience people that loved Mexican food and we're not trying to like earn it In the gym the day before, you know, the day of. So, yeah, I eventually just got to a place of recovery where I was really like, wow, this is so much better, you know, and I can't wait. I just made me want to go into eating disorders even more because I was like now you gotta see what recovery is like. You know, you gotta be on the other side. It's so great.

Michelle: 18:45

But I worked clinical first. I think for any dietician that's listening to this or are D, to be working in clinical is really good experience. You don't have to like want to do that for your whole life, but man, is it just like? From a critical thinking standpoint and just clinicians perspective, it's so good to get that experience.

Michelle: 19:10

For me, I wanted to be a little bit more involved in the long term results of my clients, and so I moved more than I did Setting, and I was able to get hooked up with somebody who was seeing eating disorder patients, and so she was willing to train me in that, which is like totally a God send, because it's really hard to find somebody that's willing to do that and then, yeah, eventually ended up doing my own practice and now I have Just stage of life this is the only thing I have right now for people to work with me as my group coaching program that focuses on really just all kinds of disordered eating and I say, like the most common client that I have going through that, somebody that Is struggling with binge eating, and it's really, really cool to see them struggling for like decades. And then they come in and within a month they're like wow, I have a bench in.

Michelle: 19:56

A week and then it just continues like they just continue to not binge and it's really really cool. So that's my most common client, but also just anybody that struggles with food and it's just and everything. So I love what I do and it's been fun to be able to make my business work for my home life, so transitioning to me as a human. I'm also a mom of two littles. I have an almost three year old and an almost one year old the time of this recording, and you know, for me it was really important to be with them while they were little At least. I still haven't decided yet what we're going to do about schooling and everything. That's a whole conversation that I'm like freaking out about, but at least for now I do want to be home with them, and so my business allows me to do that, which is really amazing and I'm super thankful for.

Michelle: 20:46

And, yeah, I live in Nebraska. I used to have two cats, as a single tear falls down my cheek. I will have a new one someday soon, I'm sure of it. I just got to convince my husband to make that like tomorrow. So that's pretty much me. Did I miss anything that you think people will be curious about?

Hannah: 21:07

No, I mean not that I, not that I can think of. I think that that was. That was a great story I've heard. I listened to your podcast, so I've heard your story before and I always really love the part where you were, where, where you're like, yeah, and then I was with the other dietetic students and they were enjoying food and I was like wow, I just that moment of realization of like wait a second, you know I there is a different way. I just think that's such a gift right.

Hannah: 21:39

When we have those moments in our lives where there's like there's a pivot, there's an inflection point where it's like you're going this way and then it's like, oh, wait a second. Yeah, I'm not really that healthy and this isn't wait. What about my mental health and my okay? And I think I think a lot of nutrition students, when they're going through the curriculum, are doing that same exact thing when they get to the eating disorders part. It does kind of push you to reflect upon your relationship with food and as a nutrition instructor myself, when I covered eating disorders, I every semester have students reach out to me and say Wow, I've just realized I'm have an eating disorder.

Hannah: 22:23

I might have an disorder and as a when I'm their professor, there's there.

Hannah: 22:29

I mean I can help them find resources and validate their experience and encourage them to continue to self reflect in that way and find healing, but I can't be their dietitian and I think I think the course I spoke with a professor who teaches the eating disorder elective at one of the universities and she said in that course she has about I think it was like a third to a half of the students who express similar concerns around like their own eating and and again. Maybe that's why they're drawn to taking that elective, because it was also an elective. But as a field, you know, we're not as good at talking about it and recognizing it and and supporting actually providing resources to support the nutrition students which, of course, I feel really passionate about, because that's kind of my, my, my jam, because I do think a lot of students in class are trying to work out their own relationship with food through the curriculum which, like you said, it's not. It's not easy to figure out your own stuff when it's your own stuff.

Hannah: 23:39

Even if you know in theory, you know all of the things.

Michelle: 23:43

Yeah, and I think it's easy to just be like, wow, well, there's people struggling with eating disorders, whatever, but it's like no, let's think about that, though.

Michelle: 23:52

Let's think about what that means. That's a very, very dangerous disorder in so many ways and of course, there's so many different types of eating disorders. But man, just like the mortality rate is ridiculous with anorexia, it's horrible. And then, aside from that, aside from health consequences, which there's many, there's the psychological consequences, which is just like it's almost like your life is not worth living, which is, I think, why the suicide rate is so high with eating disorders is because you're not able to enjoy your life, you're just not. When you are struggling with thoughts of food, 24, seven in your body and you're constantly at war, and I just like, when I think about it like that, then I'm like woo, this is a big issue and we need to be like screening, we need to be giving resources, we need to be like doing all these things when this pocket of people we know pretty pretty confidently typically struggles with this, you know, and I just feel like man, we need to make a change there, you know.

Hannah: 24:57

Yeah, college, college age students are at higher risk already.

Hannah: 25:02

So, I think kind of, yeah, superimposing that nutrition part of it, like the draw to nutrition, I think it really does increase that risk. And, having worked in the field in various different settings, I've worked with adults who have chronic anorexia and I have seen how I mean obviously the mortality rate and is really concerning. And there's also this when you have severe and enduring anorexia, you know someone who's in their 50s, 60s who's been struggling their whole life it's it really does rob them of their vitality and fulfillment and joy because they've been so in their disorder their whole life. You know and and and having worked in with those patients, it just drives home to me the importance of the work and the earlier that we can get support the better the long term prognosis.

Hannah: 26:05

And so that's where it goes back to like if we can, if we can provide that healing earlier on, then we can. We can hopefully prevent some of that long term suffering that can happen.

Michelle: 26:18

Yeah, absolutely Well. So for me, a big part of my recovery was intuitive eating, and I know intuitive eating is probably a big topic of interest for both of our listeners, so I'd love to to segue into some misconceptions about that. Hey, it's Michelle here. I hope you enjoyed part one of this series with Hannah Saffold. I hope you join us in part two to learn more about the nuances behind intuitive eating and if you're struggling with your relationship with food or you suspect you may have an eating disorder, please reach out to either of us and let us know what's going on. I highly recommend you reach out to Hannah, especially if you are a dietitian or dietitian to be, as she's a great resource for those who are struggling that are in the profession, and we want you to feel supported. We want you to know that there is support out there for you. You do not have to be alone in this. Join us for part two and we're going to dig into all the nuances behind intuitive eating and some potentially unpopular opinions.