Are Chiropractors a Scam? (with Trevor Zierke, DC)

Your Chiropractor’s Not Gonna Love This Episode 😬 

I sat down with Trevor Zierke, DC, a disillusioned chiropractor who has a LOT of dirt to share on his field. We dig into the wild world of chiropractic care, from sketchy X-ray sales tactics and essential oil upsells to why some chiropractors think they can cure literally anything with a back crack.

We talk red flags (like telling you they can fix your PCOS), green flags (like knowing when to refer out), and why your posture probably isn’t the root of all evil. Trevor also breaks down why some people do feel better after seeing a chiropractor—and why that doesn’t always mean it’s the adjustment doing the work.

If you've ever been told your spine is to blame for your kid's ADHD, endo, reflux, or mood swings… buckle up.

This episode is for anyone who’s:

• Curious about the real science behind chiropractic care
• Been burned by overpromising, under-delivering clinics
• Wondering whether adjustments are helpful or just hyped
• A tired mom who's been told their baby needs spinal work (nope)

This one pulls back all the curtains—and probably saves you a (copay or ten).

TOPICS COVERED 👇

00:00 Introduction and Background of Chiropractic
04:11 Trevor's Journey into Chiropractic Education
06:58 Philosophy vs. Evidence-Based Practice in Chiropractic
10:07 The Variability in Chiropractic Education
12:00 Understanding Subluxation and Its Misconceptions
14:44 The Religious Undertones in Chiropractic Beliefs
17:51 Personal Anecdotes and Experiences with Chiropractic
20:48 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
23:27 The Limitations of Temperature Scanning in Chiropractic Care
26:23 Misleading X-Ray Practices in Chiropractic
29:31 The Illusion of Chiropractic Effectiveness
32:22 The Risks of Overselling Chiropractic Benefits
36:16 Pediatric Chiropractic Care: A Critical Examination
41:13 Understanding Correlation vs. Causation in Health Claims
50:28 Red Flags in Chiropractic Care
53:27 Understanding Chiropractic Treatment Models
56:35 The Role of Essential Oils in Chiropractic
01:00:51 Debunking Myths in Chiropractic
01:04:08 When to See a Chiropractor
01:08:47 The Shift to Virtual Chiropractic Care

CONNECT WITH TREVOR:

Struggling with long-term nagging pain or injuries? Go to his website

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Subscribe to his channel on Youtube

Transcript

Michelle Yates (00:00)
Hey there and welcome to Nourish and Free the podcast where mental health meets physical health, food guilt gets ghosted and toxic, warmless advice gets roasted. I'm your host, Michelle Yates, a registered dietitian, certified health mindset coach and I my master's in health psychology. Around here, we believe that food should be nourishing, health should be all inclusive and mental sanity around food and your body is just non-negotiable.

Speaking of toxic wellness advice, today we are roasting one of the most confusing and controversial corners of the wellness world, chiropractic care. Today I'm joined by Trevor Zerke, a rehab specialized chiropractor. That's right, I'm having a chiropractor on to talk about their confusing and controversial field, who focuses on helping people manage chronic pain and injuries like low back pain, shoulder issues and everything in between.

But what makes Trevor extra special is that he's not afraid to call out the BS in his own profession. From pseudoscientific promises to shady x-ray sales pitches, he's here to spill the behind the scenes tea and help you understand what chiropractors can do and what they can't and shouldn't do. So if you've ever wondered, are chiropractors legit? Should I see one while pregnant or?

Did my chiropractor say they could fix my hormones? Why are they telling me what to eat? This episode's for you. Let's get into it.

Michelle Yates (01:25)
welcome to the show, Trevor. I'm so excited to have you.

Trevor Zierke (01:28)
I am excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Michelle Yates (01:30)
I feel very honored to have you here. was like, I messaged you this. I was stalking your TikTok and watching all your videos. And I was like, yes, this guy gets it. He needs to be on my podcast. So I'm very, very appreciative that you responded and were willing to come on.

Trevor Zierke (01:48)
Absolutely. No, I, I, I'll, I don't even think I've told you this, but I've always had great admiration for anyone in the RD fields. ⁓ here's a, here's a little throwback story of my history. When I knew I wanted to go to school or what I wanted to do when I was through school, it was boiled down to a few things and dietitian was one of them. And at the time, I know, right at the time though, one of the, one of the things that was driving me crazy was, like, even from outside the outside of the profession, not really in it yet. I was like,

Michelle Yates (02:07)
⁓

Trevor Zierke (02:17)
I feel like everyone like steals their thunder or just like hops them and they just never really get like the recognition that they deserve. And I was like, that would drive me crazy. Yeah. Right. It was, I can't even remember who it was. I feel bad for, for not being able to give them their justice here, but they described it as they worked in a, in a real clinical setting and they were like,

Michelle Yates (02:24)
I, you know, I wish somebody had told me that before I became a dietitian.

Trevor Zierke (02:42)
Hey, go do something where people are actually like, thankful you're helping them. They're like, they're like, it's so tough working with people who don't really want to work with you. And then on the flip side is like ever in the profession kind of thinks, or everyone in healthcare thinks that they can kind of do your job anyways. And I'm just like, I've always thought that out. So it's like, you know, anytime a dietician is an idea, I'm like, I'm, I'm going help you out, do whatever. Cause you guys deserve all the flowers.

Michelle Yates (02:46)
Yeah, dude, it's so true.

Totally, 100%.

Oh, you're so sweet. I appreciate

that. That's so nice. Especially clinical too, because I used to work acute care. And when you go and you get consulted and you go talk to patients, it is never maybe like a handful of times because they asked for you. It is just because the doctor was like, Oh, flagging them for malnutrition or obesity or heart disease, whatever.

send the dietician in to do education and like most of the time you're just dropping off a little handout because they don't want to talk to you anyway, but you got to say you did your job, you know. So it's a, it is and then being in private practice, I will say that the ⁓ payoff is better because most people want to actually be working with you. But if you have to use social media for marketing, then it's, it's brutal.

Trevor Zierke (03:36)
No, not at all.

I know, it's a tough spot.

Source we'll talk a little

bit. Uh, I'm sure we get talking about chiropractic, but I've always thought with, with your guys' fields specifically, a lot of it, like the Dunning Kruger is like the lowest barrier ever. Cause everyone's like, well, I eat healthy food. I know what I'm talking about. And it's just like, you know, I'm like,

Michelle Yates (04:07)
odds.

Yeah.

It's brutal. It's brutal. I'm not gonna lie. So I appreciate the recognition that I feel so seen and so heard right now. And I just value that.

Trevor Zierke (04:19)
Yes, good. I'm glad.

Michelle Yates (04:25)
let's talk about you. You decided to go into chiropractics. Well, tell me like, why that is what did make you decide okay chiropractic is the way to go.

Trevor Zierke (04:34)
Yeah. So it actually, funny enough, really has nothing to do with like the actual profession itself. and I, I can elaborate on that a little bit more, but it had more. So what, like my exposure to, I guess, like the private healthcare sector in, in Minnesota, where I grew up at was I knew that I wanted to do some form of healthcare. Right. ⁓ and I knew I kind of wanted to do like the more private practice route because my mom had worked in the hospital. I'd seen all that. And I was just like, I don't really love that setting for me. ⁓

Michelle Yates (04:58)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (05:04)
And private. is it kind of bowled down to really, I mean, like I said, dietitian was there, but that quickly got out of the way. And then it was chiropractic and physical therapy. knew I could kind of do the same thing with either one, but I had never seen or heard of a private physical therapy practice in Minnesota. ⁓ I've now, now I live in Texas in Texas. It's a little bit bigger. It's a little bit more common. ⁓ but I, I, for some reason I never saw it. So I thought, okay, well, if I want to do it that route, I think it's going to have to be chiropractic. ⁓

Michelle Yates (05:20)
Yeah, I don't think I have either.

Trevor Zierke (05:33)
And so I went into that without a full understanding of what the entire world of chiropractic actually was and what a majority of chiropractors think and what they do. Cause my experience had only ever been going to see one for like little odds and ends things like was one time I thought I had concussion and was playing football in high school, had a little neck pain, got, got a little work done there. Uh, and then when I had my first real like bad low back injury, but by that point I was already, I was already thinking like, okay, I kind of want to be a chiropractor. It seems like a cool job to help people.

Michelle Yates (05:43)
Hmm.

Trevor Zierke (06:03)
you can kind of do whatever. ⁓ so I'd already kind of like set on that path and known how I sort of wanted to do it. ⁓ which how I described to most people is it looks a lot like physical therapy or personal training. ⁓ but with, with the occasional adjustment and stuff mixed in when I was working with people in person. ⁓ but then I got to kind of practice school and then I quickly learned that is not how most people in the profession operate, how they do things. And there's this whole other world of.

Michelle Yates (06:30)
Uh-uh.

Trevor Zierke (06:32)
craziness and pseudo science and a borderline religious vibe going on with chiropractic. And absolutely.

Michelle Yates (06:39)
Okay, so can I interrupt you?

What was like for you in school? What clued you into that? At what point were you like, wait, this doesn't seem right.

Trevor Zierke (06:51)
Yeah, no, and and this is totally different for everyone. Cause it kind of depends on where you go to school for, for chiropractic. So I went to a school in Minnesota, which for all it's worth is actually a pretty, you know, of the list of chiropractic schools. It's, probably up there in terms of one of the better ones of like actually understanding science, not really pushing a lot of these bad claims. They've really washed out sort of all the, call it philosophical sort of garbage nonsense down to as little as they can. Cause there's still some part that's required, ⁓ for their, for their part. ⁓

Michelle Yates (06:58)
Sure.

Trevor Zierke (07:21)
So initially when we got into school, was a lot of just like your like basic sciences courses that are diving deep. like anatomy and stuff. it wasn't really, it wasn't getting anything there, but it wasn't until we started dipping into a little bit of what they would call like the philosophy or sort of like the more chiropractic specific classes, probably in like the latter end of my first year where you really started hearing some stuff that was like, again, for me, if you're like, if you weren't already sipping the Kool-Aid a little bit, you're just like, that doesn't sound.

Like that would be that, that, would work. Right. So some of the claims, like really big claims of, you know, Justin's able to fix this or, know, we are adjusting to do this one thing. you hear that and you're like, man, that sounds almost way too good to be true. And then if you dive into the literature at all, or, or any other forums really of science at all, you just sort of sort of realize like, that's it's cause it's not true. Right. And then, and then I always say it's like a snowball effect from there. Cause then you start being like, well, what, what else are they saying?

Michelle Yates (08:04)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Trevor Zierke (08:19)
Should I be skeptical of what, what else do I need to be diving into more and more? And then as you kind of got deeper into school, it started splitting more and more where you'd have some classes where you're learning a little bit more of the evidence-based stuff. And then you'd have some that were like really deep diving into some of the lot of things I'm sure we'll talk about and really, I don't want to say stepping out of scope of practice like necessarily, but you start seeing how chiropractors can sort of fall into the trough of thinking they can do a lot more.

Michelle Yates (08:21)
Alright.

Trevor Zierke (08:48)
then they probably should be doing. ⁓ and that's where, again, it's like, if you, think if you didn't already have the blinders up and you hadn't already been a little bit skeptical initially, it's, it's really easy for you to kind of fall in that trove.

Michelle Yates (08:50)
Yeah.

Yeah, I can't imagine being in an academic setting and being like, wait, I don't know that this is right. And then you're being tested. at that point, you're just trying to give them what they're asking for and not necessarily agreeing with it, right? In terms of testing, right?

Trevor Zierke (09:09)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Absolutely. And I get, that's where I'll say the hats off to like the school that I went to was really, I feel like I didn't really have to take a lot of tests or like in a real true academic setting have to get tested on a lot of that stuff. But I've talked to, you know, hundreds of students now or colleagues at other schools and they're like, man, we had to take tests on some of the most like made up, la la land stuff. That's just not, and to your point, that's something that I still, it's why I

Michelle Yates (09:30)
Hmm.

Ugh.

Trevor Zierke (09:47)
Never really feel bad when I post, you know, these sort of jabs and, and red flags about chiropractic online and other chiropractors. Like, how could you be talking bad about the profession? I'm like, well, I don't think, you know, if this is the standard, I don't think it should be held to a, to the degree that you want to write what you're up there with like medical doctors and other professions like that.

Michelle Yates (10:07)
How does, I mean, I'm assuming that Chiropractor School is accredited in some way, right, or accredited. So who is like the governing body and how much is that being held accountable? Like, I'm trying to think in terms of curriculum, how is it that something so not evidence-based is being approved? You know what I mean?

Trevor Zierke (10:13)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's something I, I wish I could speak more on it, but I haven't really dived into it too much. know it's obviously like we have a board of chiropractic examiners. There's a national one that that covers everything. Um, and really though, they only focus on, don't want to say only focus on, but their biggest focus is on the national board exams that we have to pass to actually, to get our licensure, um, and stuff from that. then, the correct, I've the way I've always sort of assumed, and this is an assumption, I just not, I can't confirm or deny, uh,

Michelle Yates (10:50)
you

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Zierke (10:57)
Is that the schools then have to base the curriculum around how to actually perform well at the, those exams. Cause he still has like a big deal of how your school does performance wise for these part one test, part two, part three, part four, et cetera. ⁓ and so I don't necessarily think that they're actually diving into every single program's curriculum and looking at it tooth and nail. And I think that's why some of this stuff can really get kind of swept under the rug.

Michelle Yates (11:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, that makes sense that they're kind of more focused on like the board exam. And I mean, is there any kind of like auditing of classes going on at any point with the

Trevor Zierke (11:26)
Mm-hmm.

It'd be tough to say

it. It doesn't seem to be, ⁓ as frequent as you'd like. And again, it's crazy. It obviously to my knowledge, it must not be that great because there is a crazy variance across schools. Like there are some that everyone within the profession knows, right? If you're kind of aware, I guess everyone's aware that there's a, there's a sliding scale here with chiropractic. And I always say that sliding scale is like true science. Like you want to be like a practicing.

medical provider, where you actually like listen to the, or read research, understand that and kind of take everything. And then there's like the flip side where it's just absolute cuckoo's like the craziest of crazies. that's where you're getting people where they, know, they can treat autism and ADHD and thyroid health with adjustments. so there's a sliding scale there. There are some schools that are so far on that cuckoo side that it's like almost like a joke within the profession, but for some reason they're still like really.

Michelle Yates (12:28)
the exam.

Trevor Zierke (12:29)
passing the exam and if anything, they're probably getting the most students out of there, which is kind of the scary part.

Michelle Yates (12:33)
Mm,

yeah. Man, that's so interesting that there can be such variants and still pass the same exam, you know? That's wild.

Trevor Zierke (12:43)
Yeah. It's why that's why

it's, it's such a wild world that I'm like, I mean, I, I don't want to say I'm immune to it, but it's just like, went through it. So I guess I understand it now, but whenever I talk to anyone else in other health fields, they're always like, what? And I'm like, yeah, I I don't know what to tell you.

Michelle Yates (12:56)
Like, I'm just

trying to put that in perspective of my field and thinking about, like, I feel pretty confident whenever I meet another dietitian that we've had, no matter where they went to school, that we've had basically the same education in terms of the classes we took, the baseline understanding. You're shaking your head.

Trevor Zierke (13:16)
Absolutely can cannot relate.

It's like a joke. It's a joke among, let's put it this way among, uh, peers of mine, where we all kind of think the same way that when you meet someone in the wild and they're like, Oh yeah, I'm a chiropractor. They say like a family member is a chiropractor. You like have to hold your breath. Like it's, it's very, I think for most people, the relatable situation is if you don't know, someone's current political agenda in our great world of 2025 and you're kind of bite your tongue waiting for them to like tell their signs or tip their hat and they're like, okay, this is how I'm going to steer the conversation.

Michelle Yates (13:38)
Yeah... Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (13:46)
That's what I do with chiropractic. Like no joke verbatim that way.

Michelle Yates (13:49)
Wow,

that is so fascinating. That is so fascinating. Okay, so you mentioned two words philosophy and then also that it can be a little bit religious. Do say more. I got to hear this.

Trevor Zierke (14:02)
Yes. Yeah. ⁓

so this is where, right. So if I, if I, just in case I use the terms, the way I would refer to someone like me or someone, a chiropractor who, you know, kind of understands where their limits are, where their scopes are, and are practicing to their best ability. ⁓ we, we dem call ourselves evidence-based. That's kind of where evidence informed, you know, evidence-based chiropractors. The other side of that is where we call philosophy based chiropractors, meaning

Michelle Yates (14:28)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Trevor Zierke (14:32)
They're just taking the general philosophy of what they learned from when chiropractic first started and what they believed in, you know, now over like 120 years ago, and they still really practice on like those fundamentals. Right. And that's where that's what most chiropractors are. And that's what most people who've seen a chiropractor, your chiropractor fault probably follows falls under that category. ⁓ those are chiropractors who.

Michelle Yates (14:44)
Hmm.

Trevor Zierke (14:56)
Uh, they believe it really the funnel, the fundamental belief and sort of kind of drives everything that they do is they believe in something called a chiropractic subluxation. quick little definition for, for everyone who doesn't know subluxation is a real thing. It's just what we refer to as a joint dislocation. Um, if you know anyone who's hypermobile or has like Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, that happens to them all the time. Cause, their connective tissue doesn't work as it should. So they get shoulder dislocation stuff all the time. They can also call that a subluxation, uh, in chiropractic talk.

Subluxation refers to your vertebrae being misaligned. Right? So this is where you'll see charts where it's like your vertebrae are sort of like stacked off. And what they believe is that a chiropractic adjustment is fixing that subluxation or putting it back into alignment. ⁓ and that's going to be what heals the body because all the problems in the body are caused by those vertebral or there's vertebrae being off center and putting pressure on your spinal cord and your nerves. And depending on where that nerve runs in the body, it

Michelle Yates (15:33)
yeah.

Trevor Zierke (15:54)
It's causing problems, right? That's where they can kind of develop the think that, Hey, if I had adjusted back your back here, like in your mid back, this nerve that comes out spinal cord at this level goes to your gallbladder. So by me adjusting this, I'm making sure your gallbladder is fully functioning and healthy. ⁓ obviously. Right. This, that the way I explained that is it's like, it's the third grader concepts where if like you told that to a third grader, they're like, yeah, that, that makes sense. But if you think about it for more than 20 seconds, you're like, I.

Michelle Yates (15:56)
Mm-hmm.

Which sounds very legit. That sounds very like, makes sense, right?

You

Yes.

Trevor Zierke (16:24)
I don't think that's true. Right. So, and again, I don't want to shame this stuff. Anyone like any general pop people who, cause it's not there, you know, they go see chiropractor. It's supposed to be a real health expert. Right. And they should know better. And you just kind of taking them like, yeah, okay. I believe you. Right. And there's obviously some people are getting help because otherwise people won't come in here. Um, but that that's like the fundamental principle for a lot of these philosophy chiropractors. Um, and it's like I said, it's just not.

Michelle Yates (16:37)
Yeah, yeah.

Totally.

yeah.

Trevor Zierke (16:53)
True. it's, so it's funny then if you ask them why, you know, why they still like practice like that, if you bring that up, that's where like sort of the religious almost like underline is where they just believe like to a fault, like it will, it'll never change. If they do this adjustments and they fix these subluxations that aren't real again, ⁓ that they're healing everything. Right. And no matter what, like if it, if the body's meant to heal, it'll heal. Right. It's like a.

If it's meant to be, it'll, it'll find a way that's like their whole belief in principle. So it's in their mind, as long as they're adjusting people, they're doing the best possible outcome. And if it works, it was supposed to work. ⁓ and if it doesn't just gotta keep trying, ⁓ and it'll eventually it'll be, if it's meant to be. it's, that's where it's like this gross sort of religious. Like, I don't even know what devotion to the craft, which is very silly.

Michelle Yates (17:42)
Yeah,

which it kind of like that argument falls on itself because it's like if it's meant to be then do you even need to do it in the first place?

Trevor Zierke (17:51)
Yeah, yeah, it's,

it's exactly, exactly. It's like, well, that's where they're like argument for everything is like, well, it's because, you know, if the body was in perfect alignment, it would be, but because it's not, we have to fix it. Then it will be right. ⁓ and then it's the, it's they, if you ever want to like stump them, they'll get an argument with themselves essentially, cause you can just keep firing back. They'll be like, well, then how come when you adjust them, they have to keep coming back and then it's, then they'll be making out. And it's just like the wheels keep spinning.

But no matter what, you're never gonna convince them otherwise because like I said, it's like this almost religious like, yeah. Yeah.

Michelle Yates (18:24)
Yeah, it's a very deep rooted belief. Yeah,

down to their core. Well, okay, going back to that third grader analogy, then ⁓ it does sound reasonable if you don't have a basic understanding of anatomy, physiology and all that, that like a simple little shift in your vertebrae pinching on a nerve could affect x, y, z. So can you explain to the third grader why that doesn't work that way?

Trevor Zierke (18:54)
Yeah. Well, first off the, the big hole in the argument for them is the, the chiropractic subluxation. talk about it doesn't really work like that. Like your vertebrae actually aren't misaligned. And if they are like, you'd have a real serious metal medical condition, something called like a retrolysis thesis. Yeah. You can have that too. That's that's similar. And this is where I'll sort of wrap these two together and why it gets almost more confusing because what you just described where you're like, pinching on the nerve and stuff. That's all real. Like those are real conditions.

Michelle Yates (19:08)
Isn't that called like a bulging disc or something? Is that different?

Okay.

and it sounds painful.

Trevor Zierke (19:23)
But it's not what

the chiropractors are talking about. Exactly. It's really painful. it's like, so if people get herniations or disc bulges, or some of times they call it a pinch nerve, that's a real condition, but that's not what chiropractors are referring to. And they're like, I can fix this misalignment in their minds. It's like your vertebrae is like slightly off center by a couple of millimeters or centimeters. A lot of times chiropractors leave and like, take these X-rays that can be very misleading, and try to show you exactly that. And they're like, see, this is why we got to fix it. Right.

Michelle Yates (19:52)
Mm-hmm.

Trevor Zierke (19:52)
You

can't, and it boils down to again, to use another third grader type argument. It's the idea that if, if you were able to do with your hands, push on someone's back and move their bones and change their anatomical structure, that would be really, really bad. Uh, the example of my friend, Aaron, I'm going to give my friend Aaron a shout out. Aaron Kubel, uh, his analogy he uses for this is yet also a chiropractor. Yes. Uh, his analogy uses that always makes me laugh as he said, if that were the case,

Michelle Yates (20:12)
yeah, yeah, yeah. I follow him too. He's also a chiropractor, right? Dissolutioned chiropractor.

Trevor Zierke (20:21)
Every single football game would end with like multiple people being dead. Right. Because if you got tackled and it was that easy to shift your bones around, like their spines would be severed. So, so it's not, we just physically cannot change structure or anything with your hands. So the premise that they can, and they are fixing alignment with their hands is just silly. And, but it's, it's almost like a not argument anyways, because this wasn't misaligned in the first place. It's all good. Like you were.

Michelle Yates (20:25)
Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (20:48)
If it was, it would be, you would, you would really know, let's put it that way. You'd have a serious condition, serious nerve like symptoms, like the disc bulge disc herniations we're talking about. Those all have very serious, ⁓ symptoms or side effects and you would be able to notice those right away. It's not like you just have some general back pain or maybe some neck pain and stuff. It's not cause your vertebrae is misaligned. So these chiropractors who are saying that they can fix everything by aligning it. It's like, well, you're there.

Michelle Yates (20:51)
Okay.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (21:15)
They're like the perfect analogy for the, I'm a hammer. want everything to be a nail, but if you, if it was more accurate, it'd be like, there's actually no nails, but you're just a hammer still. So

Michelle Yates (21:24)
you

incredible. this is great. What a treat. What a treat to have you today, Trevor.

Trevor Zierke (21:35)
Thanks. I can really get right. It's like, live in this cycle. Like again, it's just a few and shout out my colleagues who we do. Cause we get going on this and it's sometimes it's like, why is no one else think like we do. And so we just have to go back and forth. So anytime I can inform other people who don't really know so much, or at least like peering in from the outside of just how I almost say it's much more crazy of a circus circus than, than you even realize.

Michelle Yates (21:46)
Yeah.

Yeah. it's okay. So just to pull in some anecdotes here, and I've even told you this before, I think it's, it's tough to be open to hearing about the circus when you've been a victim of the circus. Like, for example, I have told you this when I was pregnant, I went to go see a chiropractor because my back was killing me. Obviously, I'm five

Trevor Zierke (22:05)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Michelle Yates (22:26)
foot one on a good day. have a ginormous belly hanging off of me. Of course my back hurts. And so I go to this chiropractor just like, hey man, can you do anything for me? And he does the whole x-ray thing. I don't even know if it's...

Trevor Zierke (22:43)
It's a real X-ray. It is a real X-ray.

Michelle Yates (22:45)
Is it because it was like a very

small apparatus, if you want to call it that, that was like on that he would like scan down my spine? Do you know what I'm talking about?

Trevor Zierke (22:50)
⁓ maybe not.

I do. don't know if I'm, I don't know if I would want to share it because it's going to make you feel what we just do. What you just said, we're like.

Michelle Yates (23:02)
I already feel

stupid, so you might as well just...

Trevor Zierke (23:07)
Okay. To put a nice

bow on that, subluxation talk, talk, ⁓ that would be called, they call it a bunch of different things. The one name I'm aware of is I think it's called the nervous scope. ⁓ and that little device in theory, this is what the chiropractors who, and this thing was like invented in like the 1920s. Like this is way back there. ⁓ essentially what that thing does is it's trying to take your temperature at specific levels. And the theory here is that.

The temperatures will change at levels where there are these subluxations, right? And so by using that device, they can accurately tell where those things are. ⁓ and I've made it, I've made it, I've made a tick tock on this once where I was like, but that misses, that misses a big mark of like, Hey, your surface body temperature can be different for like a thousand reasons. Right. So the idea that you're just scanning this little thermometer, if it's, if it's even accurate in the first place, and that's like telling you where the misalignments are, that's just so silly.

Michelle Yates (23:55)
Uh-huh.

my gosh, I wish she would have told me like, hey, this is how this works. I would have left immediately. I know at least that much.

Trevor Zierke (24:11)
Yeah. ⁓ I, it's yeah, it's,

but arguably I think that's almost better than getting blasted by an X ray. Cause it's just like, at least I don't know. The thing with the X-rays is it almost gets weaponized because it's a real, it's obviously a real medical intervention that that's used in hospitals and clinics all over the place. But it's just sort of the way that the chiropractors often use it is so misleading. And it's.

It's kind of used as a way for like a sales pitch where they can show you an X-ray. And, I want to say this as someone who I went through school, I took four or five classes on X-rays, learned how to use them, read them. Those things are still images themselves are still so confusing to look at, and a sense of like, Hey, is there something wrong? Is there not something wrong here? And you also learn that you can manipulate them relatively easily by how you set people up and how you take it. The exposure and stuff like that. So there's all these variables.

Michelle Yates (24:56)
Mm-hmm.

you

Trevor Zierke (25:05)
And if you're a common person, you have no idea what you're looking at. It's, incredibly confusing and it's very easily to be, to be sort of led astray that something more severe is taking place based on your X-ray than actually is. Um, so a lot of chiropractors will do that. That's like the common, I always say scammy chiropractor pitches. They'll bring you in for this first free session, say, okay, we just want to take X-rays and see what's wrong. And then they're going to point out 10, 20 things that are.

Michelle Yates (25:18)
Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (25:31)
wrong and you're going to look at it and say, God, like I am seeing it on an X ray. ⁓ I think that looks wrong. It's hard to say is most of the time it's something that's not wrong. You know, maybe if your posture is a little mislined, but that's still at the end of the day, not even a big deal either. Right. We have plenty of research now showing us that that's, we can't be using that as a singular cause of you being in pain. ⁓ but that's what chiropractors sort of do it to try to, you know, sort of fear monger people into thinking that they do need to be fixed and they do need care. And then it gets even trickier where.

Michelle Yates (25:36)
Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (26:01)
You know, after a few weeks, they'll shoot another X ray and then this one looks better and they'll be like, see, like we made a lot of progress. And you're wow. I guess, you know, they did, even if I'm not feeling way better right now, like it's on the X ray, like I can't deny the evidence. ⁓ so in some, in some. Degrees, I would much rather have you take the fake little temperature, nervy gun then X rays.

Michelle Yates (26:11)
Yeah.

Right.

You know what this just made me think of is, you know how like people go see fortune tellers and the fortune will be something so vague that it's like, dude, this would apply to anybody. But the person is like, yes, how did you know I've been having stress in my life? And they feel so seen. And it kind of reminds me of that where they're taking these things that most people are or they're taking like

Trevor Zierke (26:30)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think. ⁓

Michelle Yates (26:53)
information from the patient about like, okay, you have this condition or this symptom and they're making it sound like they have this magical solution or they know so much about it when it's like, I don't know, do you get what I'm saying?

Trevor Zierke (27:05)
Yeah.

No, absolutely. And it's, and it's, it's almost gets amplified or made worse by a lot of, ⁓ a lot of times it's hard to prove them wrong. And from a sense of like, they didn't get results because a lot of people that go in and to see a chiropractor, you know, a lot of times it's not people who have been in like, I've been in pain, you know, I've had neck pain for a year and a half and now I need to go see it's usually something just sort of pops up acutely. ⁓

Michelle Yates (27:29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Zierke (27:31)
And the unfortunate part is what we've learned, guess, fortunate part is, ⁓ everyone in sort of the physical health space has sort of learned, ⁓ through the years that a lot of these conditions, acute conditions will feel completely on their own, right. Over time, complete irony, by the way, to the chiropractic philosophy of the body heals itself is that it actually does that. You just don't need the chiropractic adjustment part. Right. so like, a study I often references, like acute low back pain will often.

Michelle Yates (27:51)
I'm

Trevor Zierke (27:57)
It was something like 97 % of cases are totally resolved on their own after a two to three months. Right. However, if you like week one, you have new back pain, you're like, the heck? I'm going to go see a chiropractor. Um, and they treat you and all this stuff and they say, okay, well we need to do these adjustments three times a week, uh, for like the next eight to 12 weeks. And you're like, okay, well I guess I'll do it. The worst part is at the end of those eight to 12 weeks, you're going to feel better, but it's not because of the chiropractic adjustments because time just sort of happened. Um,

Michelle Yates (28:24)
Yeah.

Right.

Trevor Zierke (28:27)
I think a

good analogy for you is when, ⁓ fasting or intermittent fasting became really popular and people like, this is magic. Like it's crazy. It's like, well, actually it's just cause you're eating less, right? It just, it's, it wasn't, it wasn't because of your fasting in these specific windows, you're just eating less calories. you're not. Yeah, exactly.

Michelle Yates (28:38)
less.

It's the same thing we see with people eliminating seed oils too, because they're

usually eating ultra processed foods that contain the seed oils. And then when they eliminate the seed oils, they're now also eliminating the ultra processed foods. And they're like, my gosh, I feel so much better. These seed oils are the devil. And it's like, actually, no.

Trevor Zierke (29:01)
Mm-hmm. Actually. Yeah. So it's the same thing that happens

for a lot of people who go see a chiropractor where it's like, Hey, you know, if you really, cause really it's the adjustments that they might feel good, ⁓ for the short-term period, like, know, for like next 30 minutes to an hour, you're going to feel probably pretty awesome. but the next day it's not going to be that much different. If instead of doing those for the next eight to 12 weeks, you probably just felt the exact same, you know, instead of spending all this money to go see a chiropractor for really, I would say it's like, it's just glorified.

rest with some back rubbing and some back cracking. Right?

Michelle Yates (29:35)
It seems so productive though when you're getting your back cracked. ⁓

Trevor Zierke (29:39)
And it does,

want to be, it feels good. Do not get me wrong. Like it really does. Like I, I get the appeal and I think that's where I don't even have a problem with a lot of people when I, when I talk about this or a lot of other chiropractors think I have a problem with all chiropractors who adjust so primarily I'm like, no, it's really just the message that you have with it. Cause I do know chiropractors do really well where they're just like, Hey, like, I'm just going to adjust to you. Like it, it tends to feel pretty good. Right. We still got to do some other stuff, but like, Hey, just coming to get adjusted. feels good. And they're like, yeah, sure.

Michelle Yates (29:42)
Sure does. It's very satisfying.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (30:08)
And

I'm like, that's a, okay. Like you're not overselling a promise. You're not doing anything. You just say it's if anything, it's just like a, it's a lightning lightning quick massage, you know, like no one's out here claiming massages can cure everything. They just feel really good. Uh, you can get a little bit of short-term relief, a little bit of stress relief, right? That's good. Who's saying who's saying no to that. That's kind of, feel with the car with the adjustment itself, but it's when you attach all these harmful narratives of what it's actually doing and sort of trooping people into.

Michelle Yates (30:21)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (30:36)
feeling like they have to get care or they have to get a lot of care for a long time. Otherwise it's going to go bad again. Like that's where it's really gross and scammy. And that's where I often talk about for that reason.

Michelle Yates (30:40)
Yeah.

And this idea that if you just get adjusted enough, then you'll finally have relief from these chronic things. know, like when I went to see the chiropractor I was talking about who did the fancy thermometer, I was told that if I just saw him for the next 12 months, it would fix my endometriosis, it would fix my PCOS, it would fix my sinus infections. What other problems do I

Trevor Zierke (30:52)
Right.

Michelle Yates (31:17)
any of the neck pain, would fix my neck pain, which by the way, I have a condition called Duane's syndrome. And I literally do not have the nerve in my left eye to turn left. And so I do a lot of correction to try to keep my eye from turning in. There's all these kinds of things that make my neck ultimately be tight all the time. This is just something I live with. And he's telling me that he can fix that. Not give me a nerve that doesn't exist, but he can fix my neck pain.

Pretty sure you can't fix that because that's like, you know, if we want to talk about root issues, it's that I have something that like just doesn't or I don't have something that needs to exist. So anyway, he's telling me all these things that he can fix. And I'm like, bro, I just came here because my back hurts because I have a baby hanging off of my belly. But if you want to see if this fixes anything, go for it. ⁓ Spoiler, it did not fix any of those things. ⁓

Trevor Zierke (31:49)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah.

I'm color me

shocked. I can't believe it.

Michelle Yates (32:17)
Actually,

it didn't help my pregnancy pain either.

Trevor Zierke (32:22)
Yeah. Which I know that's something, uh, you had mentioned and it's, it's to any pregnant moms out there. I, I get that question a lot. That's probably one of my number one, tick-tock comments is like, Hey, like I'm pregnant. I'm in pain. want to go see a car parker. you saying I shouldn't? I always say, if you want, if you're looking for like short-term pain relief, you're just in a lot of pain and you just want to feel a little bit of comfort. I'm not going to shy you away from it. Like the last thing, you know, I would say the last thing I wanted to try three mom to just be like wad around in pain. Like if you get anything for it, like go for it.

Michelle Yates (32:48)
Mm-hmm.

Trevor Zierke (32:50)
But just don't let them oversell the promises. ⁓ especially, especially when you get into the ones where it's like, this will actually make your labor. Smoother or make it go faster, right? Or, or a lot of the times they're, I'm sure this will go into our next topic. ⁓ they'll try to rope that into then, well, after you have the baby, make sure you bring baby in here as well. And like, that's where it's a slippery slope. So I was like, as long as you're aware of those things beforehand and you can have like kind of the blinders up of like.

Michelle Yates (32:54)
Yeah.

yeah. Yep, I was told that too.

yeah.

Trevor Zierke (33:20)
Hey, no, ideally you'd be going to see chiropractor. We won't try to push you on that, but if, know, if the, you have to make do with what you have, just being aware of those things and those sort of scenarios and being able to say no. And like, just being like, I just really want the back crack. Like, I just want to feel good right now. Like that'd be awesome.

Michelle Yates (33:31)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, I was told it would help my labor. Ended up having a 28-hour labor.

Trevor Zierke (33:42)
You just didn't get adjusted enough. That's what it was. A couple more.

Michelle Yates (33:44)
I just didn't get in. I didn't go in soon enough or often enough.

I yes and then I was roped into the then pediatric which we should just segue into that which I was low key shamed for getting an epidural at one point and I was like no you cannot make me feel bad about that. It was a 28 hour ordeal. I needed to relax. I also needed a nap. This woman needed a nap.

And the epidural helped and I am not going to be ashamed to think it messed up my baby. My baby's fine. And but she had reflux. And so then they were telling me, oh, if we do adjustments, it'll fix her reflux. I think I took her there twice or three times. And then my I went to a pediatrician, an appointment with her pediatrician, and he was asking about the reflux. And I was like, Yeah, but we started going to see a chiropractor who said they could fix it. And my pediatrician was

appalled, like he was appalled. And I was so embarrassed because I should have known better. I'm in the medical field. And, and then I asked this chiropractor ⁓ if he had any, and then I went down the rabbit hole and I was like, hang on. And I asked him for literature about pediatric adjustments being safe and effective, and even helping the reflux like at the

Trevor Zierke (34:49)
Right.

Michelle Yates (35:10)
At this point, that's the only reason I'm bringing her to him is for help with the reflux. She's crying all the time. It'd be great if somebody could help me with the crying. And he said he could. Anyway, ⁓ you know, the best he could do was send me some case studies. And I was like, no, I know enough to know this is not real evidence. This is one case study, multiple and not a peer reviewed journal. It was just so...

Trevor Zierke (35:16)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Michelle Yates (35:38)
and I was done after that. So anyway, long story short, ⁓ I don't take my kids to the chiropractor. So let's talk about that.

Trevor Zierke (35:47)
No, nor. Yeah. Nor would I recommend anyone to, cause

it's exactly your point. It's just, there's zero, zero, zero, zero real literature out there showing that it does anything. Right. And it's especially, it's not even it's the claims are so crazy, right? Like it's all we just talked about. Like there still is some, like it's, I can't even make a concrete point in saying that like adjustments don't help with back pain or neck pain. Cause there's some evidence that for some people it does sometimes help.

Michelle Yates (36:14)
Sure.

Trevor Zierke (36:16)
For any

Michelle Yates (36:16)
Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (36:16)
of the car, the baby pediatric claims, none, right? The colic, the reflux, ⁓ when they start getting of age, like a popular one is like, helps with bedwetting episodes, ⁓ ADHD and autism, all like all these crazy, crazy things. And there's not a single lick of evidence there. ⁓ and it really just kind of flows into that, that philosophical side that we talked about where it's, they're just kind of running off of this.

Thought like, Hey, like babies, their nervous systems are developing. Like it's probably not developing like perfect all the time. Cause babies, know, they crazy, they crawl over and they're, moving all about, uh, like something's gotta be wrong there. So if we can just sort of fix it, it should fix all of these issues we just talked about. And I want you to all of those issues are, this is what I always think is like particularly sinister. All of those issues are ones that cause mom much more problems than baby. Right. Colic, right. Like you said, the reflux are crying all the time.

Michelle Yates (37:07)
Right, right.

Right. Very vulnerable.

Trevor Zierke (37:12)
And it's sort of one of these things where like the,

yeah, the mom's like, I would love to get this fixed right now. Or something mean you talked about a little bit is like, you've, you've almost feel like a peer pressure. Like I'm a bad mom if I'm not helping my baby do this thing. Right. So it's.

Michelle Yates (37:25)
Mm hmm. ⁓ or like,

I got the epidural, I need to fix this because apparently I shouldn't have done that. And I didn't think that but I could see how others would, you know.

Trevor Zierke (37:33)
Yeah,

totally. Which for the record, my wife is a labor and delivery nurse. And so we talk about stuff like that all the time. And I've always said as a guy, I was like, I kind of feel like I would love an epidural. Like just give me one on a Tuesday. Like that sounds awesome. She's always like, yeah, she's always like, please don't say that. But I'm like, I don't know. Like, I don't know why there's any shame there. Like I would take that in our feet.

Michelle Yates (37:43)
It was lovely.

If you

I've

done labor every way. I've done it with an epidural. I've done it with an epidural that didn't work in time. And then I did one just without ever even placing it. And after that last one, was like, I don't see the big deal. Like, I just get an epidural. It's so nice. It really hurt.

Trevor Zierke (38:09)
Get it. Just get it done with so nice. Right. But yeah, I can't imagine I'd be permissed if I didn't. Cause I make the joke to my wife all

the time as a guy, I'm always like, it can't be that bad though. Like, like it can't be that bad. Like just totally kidding when I say that, but no, you're, you're right. And I think that's where a lot of the. Like pediatric and sort of mom centered chiropractic, it's really almost built on this, this sense of like moms feeling like.

Michelle Yates (38:22)
It is. It sure is.

Trevor Zierke (38:38)
That's like, I, if I don't do this, I'm not a good mom. Right. And then there's all these communities of all these other moms taking their babies there in the world of social media, where they're posted on Facebook. If you're like, well, geez, I'm not doing this for my kid. Am I a bad mom? Maybe I need to go do this. Right. And then they can give you all these problems that you said that are like, yeah, that is annoying. I wish, I wish she didn't cry so much. Right. I wish she wasn't wetting the bed. Like, and then, so it's easy to get roped in. So I always feel really bad because it feels, it feels like people are going to take advantage of it they really are for the most part.

Michelle Yates (38:41)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (39:07)
And again, it's roots back to none of the, none of that is, is based in any evidence at all. In fact, I don't even think I even told you this, Australia has actually outlawed any sort of pediatric chiropractic care at all. Like you can't do any, I don't know to the extent of it, if it's like chiropractors can't even see like, ⁓ people under or kids under a certain age or anything, but I know they absolutely cannot do any sort of adjustments, which they're not even, it's like glorified back rubbing is what I always say. Cause at least.

Michelle Yates (39:21)
Really?

Trevor Zierke (39:37)
Knock on wood, at least like the back, the chiropractors who work with babies for the most part, it's not like they're actually adjusting them. It's kind of like, they're just like pushing a little bit on them. don't know. It looks, there's like a little, it looks like a little back rub. I do want to be clear. I take, I'll take that versus like a big wham, like through their neck. Right. So that's fine. But at the end of the day, it's like, you're not really.

Michelle Yates (39:47)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember watching and I was like, is this really? a little movement

Right, yes.

Trevor Zierke (40:00)
do anything. So I don't know if that's where Australia is just outlawed that or anything, but it, was a big country that happened when I was in school around like 2018 range where they showed up outlawed it. And I, I mean, a lot of my colleagues are saying like, well, we'd love to see something like that United States, but I don't see it happening anytime soon, especially now with the current. Yeah, this was pre this was pre 2024 now even posts. like, Oh man, we're really cooked.

Michelle Yates (40:16)
No, unfortunately, we're going backwards. We're going backwards in time. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. In fact, everybody is probably going to be required to have their pediatric chiropractor. That's going to be covered by insurance and actually probably already is.

Trevor Zierke (40:35)
⁓ that's a great question. I don't know. It's just, I mean, with all things insurance, it's all a mess anyways, but the chiropractic one is like really, really

Michelle Yates (40:39)
I don't know.

So what I wanted to circle back to was this whole idea of there's no evidence of it being effective for pediatric care, for solving these issues, et cetera. I can hear the social media posts and the outrage of, it worked for my kid, and it worked for my nephew, and it worked for my best friend's kid, and it blah, blah, blah, all these anecdotes. So I think maybe now would be a good time to talk about why...

Trevor Zierke (41:03)
and

Michelle Yates (41:13)
correlation doesn't equal causation. And just because your BFF saw success doesn't mean that it's going to help you or that it's evidence-based or that it was even in chiropractic care. Even to what you said earlier about like, there's an element of time at play a lot of times, especially when it comes to kids. For example, my daughter's reflux naturally got better when she started eating solid foods that just makes

sense anatomically with what's happening. But I guarantee you if I had continued to see the chiropractor, he would have taken credit for that, you know.

Trevor Zierke (41:44)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

And, and that's where I think it's easy to explain on like a, you know, a Jen pop, like if me or you went to go, if we didn't know any better and went to a chiropractor for a back pain and stuff, it's, really boils down to it's hard to disprove again, cause they're seeing these people for, you know, these long periods of time. So there's something that just might've happened out of their control that their case is now better and they can take credit for it. And that's what they'll kind of go to.

And I'll say if, if you've ever had experience with, know, you go to a chiropractor and you've gotten buddy or better, or you've seen someone and they've gotten better when they see it. A lot of it boils down to it's just pain is especially like physical pain where muscular aches, know, anything like that, uh, that chiropractors are supposed to be treating all of that is really, really complex. And it's something we call it's a multifactorial pain, meaning your pain often isn't being derived from one thing, uh, being wrong. Right. So it's not necessarily always like, okay.

My back hurts. That must mean there's something wrong with that joint or there's something wrong with that bone. There are so many other factors that have absolutely nothing to do with, with your actual physical health, right? It can be your emotional state, how stressed you are. Are you sleeping in your diet? All of these other things, right? That's the same thing in the world of nutrition and diet and stuff. All of these things play a big, big role. And that's it. I always tell people it's a good news, bad news thing, right? Cause it's a good news from the side effect of like, Hey, that means we don't have to just like focus on this one thing to get improved.

Michelle Yates (43:02)
Yep, absolutely.

Trevor Zierke (43:13)
right? We can work a bunch of these secondary things and maybe lower, lower berries or lower hanging fruit to hit. And we can see progress. ⁓ the bad news is that it makes it a little more complex from like a diagnosis standpoint of like, Hey, what is actually going on? You have to be a little more comfortable with like, we don't really know what's going on. ⁓ but we have an idea and we think like these things might help. so because you have all these factors, it's really hard to say that, just because you went to the chiropractor and you know, they were doing

Michelle Yates (43:24)
Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (43:40)
A little bit work in your back and it felt good for a short period of time that that sole thing is what fixed, you know, your pain or someone else's pain or their headaches or, all these other things. There's just so many other factors at play that it's hard to boil it down to being like, that was the sole thing that, that made the improvement.

Michelle Yates (43:58)
Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. It's exactly the same when it comes to nutrition. There's, I mean, back to the seed oils analogy. Like, we can't just say it was that one thing. Maybe it was for that one specific person for whatever reason, but it's so difficult to say that with certainty, and people love certainty. It's comforting.

Trevor Zierke (44:21)
Yeah, right. No, and it, and it's hard

and it's like, and there's a lot of other times where, you know, I think it can get confusing too, is B and I'll sort of relate this back to when I practice in person was I would never do just adjustments alone. When I'd work with people would be like an hour long setting where maybe we do adjustments and like a little bit of manual work at the start. And then we'd move right into what a lot of people looked more like physical therapy or in my case, like personal training, cause we'd be doing a lot of like more intense rehab work.

The reason I would still do the adjustment for some people is we can almost use that as like a little, a little cushion to kind of get us like over the hump of like, okay, I'm not in so much pain. Now I can move my body a little bit more. Right. And I think of this a lot when you see I, every time I get a video, there's always someone who responds that, well, Hey, how do you explain this? And they link this one really viral YouTube video from, think it's like 10 years ago or so now. Of this guy who he walked in, he could like hardly move his back. He's just like visibly visibly hunched over.

Michelle Yates (45:00)
Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (45:19)
And he's like, my back's in so much pain. I haven't been able to move or do anything. And he gets an adjustment and you can almost see right then and there it's because he's been like moved into like a new range of motion that he hasn't experienced in a while. And it's like so shocking and so much adrenaline comes to his body. And he's like, my gosh, like, I don't know. And he almost gets like a new rejuvenation. Now he can start moving. Now he goes from, couldn't walk. I just have to sit and lay in bed all day to now like, I'm actually able to walk throughout the day.

Maybe do a little bit of light activity. Like I just generally feel so much more positive about my life. Like all these secondary effects now are happening. And I would, you know, the evidence would tell us looking more at those things. That's probably what actually helped him get like this long-term progress. But at the same time, then I can't say like, okay, well, the adjustment like sort of helped push him there, but it's not necessarily the thing that did it right. If he just got adjusted and then nothing else changed in his life. That wasn't, that wasn't going to be what fixed him. Right. It's it can.

Michelle Yates (45:50)
Mm.

Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (46:13)
produce all these other things, but that's where I say it can still be helpful sometimes for some people. it's just, it's just how you look at it. can't be like the sole thing that you're doing. has to be something that leads to other things that can make positive change.

Michelle Yates (46:27)
I love that. It's like a stop along the way to other health promoting behaviors like moving your body more and the resistance training and stuff. And if you can't do those because you're in pain and that helps alleviate the pain so that you can do them, then yeah, that makes sense. I think that's a great way to look at it. So for you then, when you're hearing about somebody that is going to a chiropractor or you're seeing, you know, a chiropractor's posts or their website or whatever, what are some

Trevor Zierke (46:32)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Yates (46:57)
red flags versus green flags when it comes to that individual's practice.

Trevor Zierke (47:03)
Totally. So I, can kind of do them at the same time and I'll break them down. A lot of it starts with the language. And I think that's what I sort of talked about the top, where if you can start to hear some stuff of like how they're even approaching, you know, their philosophy towards treating pain and stuff right away. Like that's, if you start hearing terms like subluxation or, know, like the, the adjustment, like fixing stuff, one, popular one that they, they use is like the innate intelligence. And that's essentially everything you talked about where it's like the body will heal the body.

That's their term for that is like your body will innately make everything well. So if you start hearing things like that, like even just looking at their website or anything like that, ⁓ instant red flag, that's a really big red flag because it can be a really slippery slope. I talked about where in their mind that tells me when I hear language like that already, they think that they can hear everything you have. Right. And so like you, you're a great example that you can relate to is

You know, I might be coming at this one issue, but if they start to hear that I have other stuff, they're going to be like, Hey, I can fix that too. I can fix that too. I can fix that too. And it just gets really uncomfortable from a point. Like you almost feel like you can't say no at that point. Right. And a lot of them will be like abrasive about that. So that's my ultimate red flag is when you start to see stuff like that. That's before you even like walked in the door or anything like you can scope that out right away. Green flag on the flip side to be.

Michelle Yates (48:01)
Mm-hmm.

Trevor Zierke (48:20)
It's if you go, you know, looking at their website or the reviews and stuff like that, and everything's like a little bit more nuanced. If they have a social media page, like they're talking about things. I always say it's not nearly as sexy, right? Cause they are having to explain like in depth. maybe like this and maybe this, um, but maybe they're promoting other things besides just the adjustment, right? Their page isn't full of them just cracking people's back. Maybe it's like doing a little bit of exercise or like showing this or like talking about things note though, if they're talking about things that are like, I don't think I would see a chiropractor for that.

Michelle Yates (48:33)
Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (48:50)
That's a red flag, right? So we can boil that one into scope of practice, right? Cause this is another thing where a lot of chiropractors will be talking about things where my, my sort of outlier common sense test there is like, if you hear a chiropractor talking about things that aren't like on your body, like your shoulder or your neck or your back and stuff, you probably should not listen to them. Right? So if there's talk talking about hormones and your thyroid health and stuff like that,

Michelle Yates (48:52)
point.

or food.

Trevor Zierke (49:18)
Or food, right? Anything that's like, it's not in their lane. Like maybe they can learn a little bit extra about it. And I was, I always do say this. probably shouldn't cause I'm being nicer than I should, but I don't want to discredit that they haven't like put an effort to learn more about these things, but they have not learned to the level that you have as a dietitian or that any, like an endocrinologist has learned about the hormones and stuff. It's just, they are not qualified enough to speak on it with so much authority and speaking to a public.

Michelle Yates (49:27)
Yeah.

Sure.

Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (49:46)
that they can help them and they can be like the vehicle to sort of make change. So if they're talking about other things like that, or it even just seems like they're not even treating things you'd think you'd see a chiropractor for, ⁓ like Hashimoto's and stuff like that, that's a big red flag to me, because again, that gives me insight that they're probably more on that philosophy side where, Hey, I can do whatever. And it might not even be with adjustments, right? It might be that they just sort of slipped and fell into the supplement aisle of it where they're, you know,

Michelle Yates (49:49)
Bye.

Trevor Zierke (50:13)
spoiler alert, if they're selling a lot of supplements, that's not because they think it can help you. It's because that's a huge, ⁓ part of their business model and a lot of big revenue. ⁓ that could be, that could be like a whole other podcast of talking about the weird world of chiropractic supplements and stuff, but that it's, it's great, but that, that should sort of pure you and like, okay, well, if they're doing, you know, this guy wants to give me these vitamins and these supplements for.

Michelle Yates (50:21)
A lot of

⁓ you got time next week? Just kidding.

Trevor Zierke (50:41)
this condition I have that has nothing to with my neck pain. That's a red flag to me. Right. Like it should not be, that's not what you should go to a chiropractor for. ⁓ and again, though, this was all been so far before, if you even like walked in the door for like a first visit or anything like that. ⁓ if, if they've passed the so far, so good, you actually do go see a chiropractor. Do you still think like, okay, I think they should be good when you're actually there and they are actual treatment. Red flags for me are what we talked about at the start where it's like they.

Michelle Yates (50:49)
Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (51:10)
have to X-ray you or do some sort of, I always say it's like a song and dance before they actually see you being like, okay, we got to, you know, we got to like analyze your posture or, know, take X-rays to see what everything looks like. So we can get to the root cause of it. Right. Which again, that sounds like it makes sense. Right. Like you'd be like, yeah, I would absolutely want to see that. It doesn't make sense from the standpoint of nothing that an X-ray would show them is actually going to like impact their.

Michelle Yates (51:16)
Hmm.

Sure, yeah.

Trevor Zierke (51:38)
treatment plan, right? And I'm not saying like you should never get X-rayed, right? Cause there are conditions or our cases where even if I was seeing a patient where I was like, Hey, based off what you told me, you know, in your subjective, like when I was asking all these questions, I think maybe getting an imaging done might be good just to make sure something like super serious isn't going wrong here. I'm not, I'm not getting an X-ray to be like, okay, where are you misaligned and how can I show you your body's really messed up and I can fix it. Right? Cause that's what a lot of the times.

Michelle Yates (51:40)
Yeah.

this tiny little

curve.

Trevor Zierke (52:05)
Yep. That's a

lot of the times. Okay. Here's a good rule of thumb. If you do get an X-ray, you should, or that radar should be off. You're getting an X-ray, but then you can leave. If you get the X-ray and they start making little marks with a pencil being like, here's where you're wrong. Here's where you're left. Here's where you're right. You can leave like my full permission out because that's exactly what we talked about where they're trying to convince you that all these little things are wrong and that's what's causing your pain. And they're going to be able to fix it. Right. Those aren't causing your pain. Like spoiler.

Good news. Those are not causing your pain. It's not a big deal. It's just probably how your body's aligned. Cause you know, we're all totally different, right? We're not these textbook anatomical figures, you know, ⁓ you know, your legs a little bit longer than the other, you know, you might sway a little bit from one side to the, we can't say that that alone is why you're in pain. So for them to, you know, be essentially trying to put all their eggs in one basket and say, that is why you're in pain. Red flag to me. ⁓ and I guess I get,

It's harder to say the green flags really, because the green flags are really, they just don't do any of red flags, right? Like maybe they just, they, they ask thorough questions and they're a little bit more like, okay, well that sounds, you know, maybe that's a little bit out of my scope. Like maybe we should go get you an X-ray here. Maybe send you off here. ⁓ or the approach is, I always say a good one is if they're not just adjusting you for, you know, 10, 15 minutes and then, and then you leave, right. ⁓ I always make the joke that like these, these.

chiropractic mills can look like conveyor belts. And I say mill cause they kind of have like this system down where, you know, there's like legitimately 20 to 30 to 40 people coming in an hour and they're just like rotating through, through the chiropractor office. if they go in, they sit in a, yep, they sit in a room. A chiropractor will come in, they'll adjust you for like five minutes and then they leave and then you go and you sit on some hot packs or some ice packs, whatever it may be.

Michelle Yates (53:37)
cheese.

different stations.

Trevor Zierke (53:52)
And then you go to this other one, maybe they'll give to the electrical steam machine. And then you leave it every single person that walks in that building does that same exact cycle. That's a red flag because it's, it's nothing. You're not getting treated for any sort of like your actual symptom or what's actually going wrong. They're just running you through the mill. And again, kind of hoping that they can sign you up for, know, hopefully you come to us for like 20, 30 sessions. And then by the time that that's done, you're, just feeling better because like we talked about time usually heals most of these things.

Michelle Yates (54:15)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (54:21)
And they can kind of take credit for it. And you're just kind of like, well, I'm doing all these things. Like I assume they're working like they feel pretty good. Like sitting on an hot pack. That feels nice. Right. But it's not actually making any long-term change to your condition.

Michelle Yates (54:34)
is a brilliant business model. It's absolutely brilliant.

Trevor Zierke (54:37)
It really is. that's what it's like. can't, I

almost can't be mad. I, the joke I always say with, ⁓ my colleagues and us, which is a little sinister, we'd be like, man, if we had no morals, we could make a lot of money. Like it's really, it's really, yeah, exactly. Like it's really, it's really, really easy because you just essentially have to scare them into thinking something's wrong or something's a bigger deal than it actually is. ⁓ and then, guess what? I saw the magic solution. You just have to kind of keep coming in. And I, as long as I make sure you feel a little bit better when you walk out the door, you keep coming back, which.

Michelle Yates (54:47)
⁓ same here. Absolutely. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Zierke (55:06)
That's 90 % of Chiropractic's business model in a nutshell.

Michelle Yates (55:11)
And don't forget to leave that five star Google review. ⁓ yeah, yeah. ⁓ Okay, what is the like the ⁓ what's the word I'm looking for? The thing that you lay on that like has a little massage thing that goes through the other rolly table.

Trevor Zierke (55:13)
Five star Google review and tell all your moms in the Facebook group, bring, bring your baby under your bad mom.

A little rolly table. I don't know what the actual name

is. I was just called it a rolly table. ⁓ cause the first, when I was an undergrad, the first chiropractic office that I worked for, which this was like, I should have touched on this and said, this was like my first ever red flag. was like, wait, what the heck do we do here? Like, what do you get? This is chiropractic. yeah, they would send every patient onto that little rolly table. ⁓ which I don't what it's, but it's kind of just like a little massage chair, I guess in a nutshell, it just, for some reason costs like $30,000.

Michelle Yates (55:44)
you

Yeah.

Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (55:59)
and well, I mean, real, the real spoiler here, this is, this is kind of cynical, but I mean, you can bill insurance for some of these specific modalities we talked about, which is this, if you are listening and you've been to like multiple chiropractic offices and like, yeah, they can all do the same thing. The lot of the same thing, the reason they do the same thing, hot packs, STEM, like I just talked about Rolly table. A lot of those are the only modalities that are covered by insurance.

So if these chiropractors want to bill your insurance for the maximum amount of value, they need to touch all these bases because just the adjustments alone, they can't bill for as much as they want. So if they get you five minutes here, 10 minutes here, 15 minutes there, it's like it, they have this down to like a T some of these places, like with the system. it's what does the rolling table do? I don't know. Probably not that much. You know, it feels kind of good. Don't get me wrong, but like, is it worth, is it worth that $30 copay? Probably not, you know,

Michelle Yates (56:35)
There you go.

kind

of feel like it's just a nice way to have them wait, to have the patient wait for their turn.

Trevor Zierke (56:57)
It honestly kind of is that's what,

that's what I initially thought it was when I started working at a place that user was, I was just like, it's like a nice convenient spot for them to wait and kind of feel good. But then I learned that they were actually like putting it in the bill, the itemized bill that they were sending the insurance. was like, ⁓ okay.

Michelle Yates (57:06)
Yeah, and relax.

amazing. Wow, man, I just feel

like we've pulled back so many curtains. Let's pull back one more. Why are some chiropractors obsessed with essential oils?

Trevor Zierke (57:24)
Oh, that's a good, that

might fall under in my mind. Uh, well, how familiar are you with the essential oil MLM that's set up? What does that brand? can't even think of the brand. How young living that young life. Yeah. Yeah. One of those two is one of those two. Uh, I think it kind of falls in that supplement world where a lot of these chiropractors offices are almost getting like targeted for like wholesale where it's like, Hey, like these, this it's such a weird.

Michelle Yates (57:33)
⁓ young life or young living yeah yeah i think you're right

Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (57:51)
Supplements and essential oils for chiropractors is so weird to me because it always seemed a little hypocritical, right? Cause these really like staunch diehard philosophy based chiropractors are like so anti-medicine and pharmaceuticals they want everything natural. But I'm like, is that essential really natural? Like, I know it's like the original source was natural, but if we're playing that game, so are like most pharmaceutical medicines. So it's like, don't. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, that's their.

Michelle Yates (58:09)
you

And yep, poisons, yep.

Trevor Zierke (58:18)
Like the draw to it is like, it's a natural sort of way. ⁓ but my real belief is that they are probably getting a pretty, they're pretty much buying these essential oils and supplements wholesale and they're reselling them to you. And again, that's probably a big, big part of their business model. I know for sure that's the case with supplements. it's like, there's a lot of supplements brands where they, can even, I had a shout out to one of my friends, Emily. She's a dietitian. She had brought this up to me.

Michelle Yates (58:34)
Mm-hmm.

Trevor Zierke (58:47)
where she asked me one of her clients that started working with her. She asked him like, Hey, what's with this like supplement company? They cost like $200 for this bottle of pills. That's my chiropractor. Try to get me on. Yeah. And so she sent it to me and I was like, Oh, that's like a really popular brand in chiropractors where you like, if you were a patient, you could not buy that supplement from their website. They only sell them to chiropractors and then the chiropractors sell them to you. And it makes so much money, like stupid amounts of money.

Michelle Yates (58:55)
my gosh.

⁓ wow.

Trevor Zierke (59:14)
Um, and it's because you're just paying like insane markup prices for these. I don't know. Maybe they're good. I don't know. And as far as the supplement goes, maybe that is a great source of whatever sunflower, whatever it may be, but, it's like, is it worth $200 for 30 capsules? don't know. Probably not, you know,

Michelle Yates (59:20)
I doubt it.

Sunflower.

That is

wild. It has that appeal of almost like having to go to your primary care physician for prescription. You have to go to your chiropractor for that supplement. It's like trying to parallel that I feel like and it gives it that sense of, this must be legit because I have to get it through my chiropractor.

Trevor Zierke (59:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

And it really like, it teeters this like weird line because it's like, I'm not even saying some of those supplements might not be like effective. Like, I don't know. It's like most supplements, like maybe, I don't know. It's hard to say, is it the cure? I can definitely say it's not, but it might help you like a little bit, even if it's marginal. Um, but the way that they push it and often use like the language with it, it is, if it's like, uh, like, honestly, that's a great point is it's, it's almost like a natural pill, right? Is there a version of the pills and whatever.

Michelle Yates (1:00:02)
Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Zierke (1:00:18)
You might get from a pharmacy. just have to get it from a chiropractor.

Michelle Yates (1:00:20)
which are very frowned upon by chiropractors usually. It's so funny. There's so much hypocrisy that was just so entertaining.

Trevor Zierke (1:00:24)
It's so funny.

so much. That's what I'm talking about where it's like, if you really,

if you sit down with one and like, you like one of these really staunch, ⁓ philosophy based chiropractors, like you can easily start finding the holes in our logic and get them like spinning into arguments against themselves. And it's just like, so backwards.

Michelle Yates (1:00:43)
fun. Okay, what is I'm going to wrap us up here with like, two more questions. First one is what is the biggest myth that you wish would just like die in terms of what chiropractors spread a lot like misinformation that they spread that you wish would just die?

Trevor Zierke (1:00:51)
Okay.

yeah, I think it has to tie in a little bit with like the misalignment. ⁓ and I, I'll tie it in with posture one is they really try make people feel bad or guilty or that all their problems come from how you sit and how you stand or how you sleep. Right. And all these things, they try to pinpoint that as like, that's why you're in pain.

Michelle Yates (1:01:23)
Mm-hmm.

Trevor Zierke (1:01:28)
⁓ and then the flip side is always because, I can fix that and then you'll not be in pain. Right. So that's why they're pushing it so hard, but it's such a harmful narrative because it gets people like really. Like, especially if you're really like anal about stuff like that, where you'll be like, I need to sit up straight. Right. Like everyone's there's probably people listening. It was like, my mom used to like smack my back and be like, I got to stand up straight. Right. Or like that stuff like really affects people, ⁓ especially in like a world now where a lot of people work at a desk or they work from home and stuff and they just feel really guilty.

Michelle Yates (1:01:43)
Yeah.

Yeah

Sure, yeah.

Trevor Zierke (1:01:56)
about how they do it. it's just like, that's not something you really need to be worried about that much. Right. And I don't want that. I'll put a disclaimer on that is it's not to say that, you know, if I sit at this in this desk in this chair like this for the next eight hours, I would probably feel a little bit of back pain, right? That's just because I'm doing something in a position that I don't normally do. And I'm doing it for super long periods of time. Right. It's, no different than when people find a plane and they get like, like, my back hurts.

Michelle Yates (1:02:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Zierke (1:02:23)
Cause you're in this little tiny cramped seat and you're not moving for like two and a half to three hours and you never do that. Right. It's literally, it's not that far off than if you don't run and all of sudden tomorrow you're like, I think I'm going to go run three miles. Right. Your body's going to be like, dude, what the hell? And it's going to be really sore and you're going to be in a lot of aches and pains. It's not because running was bad. It's not because sitting like that was bad. It's just because it's not something you do a whole lot of, and it's putting a lot of stress on your body and in a way that it's not used to, and it can't really sort of handle at this moment. Right. You know,

Michelle Yates (1:02:25)
Mm-hmm.

Hehehehehe

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you

probably feel that way too, just standing in one place for eight hours.

Trevor Zierke (1:02:55)
Exactly. That's my thing. Like this is this desk I'm at right now is a sit, stand desk and I like it. I hate the marketing that they use for it. And it's that sitting is bad. You need to stand up if I sit or if I stand at this thing for two hours, I'm like, dude, this sucks. Like my hips hurt, my feet hurt, like everything hurts. So it's not, yeah, you're exactly right. It's, never the actual position, right? It's the actual, it's like the duration, right? The dosage makes the poison, right? That's what the, the saying is. It's the same thing with like this, the sitting in this posture sort of stuff, right?

Michelle Yates (1:03:07)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So why should somebody see a chiropractor? You kind of already answered this, but just to kind of put a little bow on top, why should someone consider seeing a chiropractor?

Trevor Zierke (1:03:34)
Yeah.

Yeah. And this is, I, and this is probably why I do feel like so passionate about it because I do still think chiropractors are in an ideal world and like a great spot to help a lot of people. Right. And it's because they're in this sort of sector of physical pain, ⁓ of like any neuromuscular condition where it's not as hard to see them as it is to go see like your primary physician. Right. It's a relatively ease of access and a lot of people deal with those problems. Right. So it's, and I still always say, if you have like some sort of, you know,

physical aches and pains or anything like that. That's been lasting for a little, a little while. Like, you know, again, if it's day one, just give it like 48 hours, 72 hours. I know it might be a little uncomfortable, but it might save you a lot of money and a lot of time and frustration, just to see if it gets better. But if it's been, know, a week, two weeks or a couple of months, and you feel like, still feel like I'm, it's getting, it's staying the same or if it's getting worse, that's where we're going to see a chiropractor can be really helpful. But then it's just, we're being smart about making sure you're not getting roped into seeing.

Michelle Yates (1:04:20)
Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (1:04:37)
someone for something that you shouldn't, or, maybe they're taking advantage of you because there are situations where, you know, I like to think of myself or, or my other friends and colleagues that you could go see them for, you know, a couple of sessions. They'd really help you. I'll give you a lot of practical advice to be like, Hey, this is why it's happening. We'll do this. You should feel better. Here's a lot of these other acts of options of stuff you can do on. On your own at home, whether it be like exercise or self stretching and stuff like that, that can really, really help you.

That's still like an awesome option for actually like getting your solution, right? Which is I want to feel better with, know, I want this neck pain gone, or I want this back pain gone. ⁓ and it can still be really, really helpful for that, but it's, it's not, it's, it can't be like a magic, sort of like, I'm just going to do this thing and it's going to be better like that. ⁓ and I would say you probably shouldn't go see chiropractor if it's something that's a little bit more serious, right? ⁓ I hesitate to say this because it's really.

It's kind of hypocritical because the most people I work with have been in pain for, you know, six to eight months or longer, right. Or years. and I work with them over a long-term setting, but I think if you have had pain for that long and it's not getting a whole lot better, I just because of everything we talked about of how, how likely it is that you fall prey to someone who sees your situation, take advantage of you. wouldn't recommend go to see the chiropractor unless like you've got a lot of, a lot of.

Michelle Yates (1:05:54)
Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (1:05:59)
reason to believe that they'd be really good or they'd be an actual like good one. ⁓ that's where scenarios where seen other options like physical therapists or even, or even, you know, I know the wait times nowadays are crazy, but just going to see your general doctor to see if they have any advice of where they could refer you. Cause they might be a little bit better for a situation like that.

Michelle Yates (1:06:02)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Well, this was probably one of my most favorite episodes of all time. You are reigniting my faith in the chiropractic field because now I know that there are people who are evidence based that can have that title.

Trevor Zierke (1:06:23)
I love it.

Yeah.

Michelle Yates (1:06:35)
such as you and I also just recently discovered Aaron Kubal as well. That's his name, right? Did I say that right? Yes. You guys are, I just feel like so needed. And the reason why is because there are so many, and I see this, like there's so many people being taken advantage of by thinking, ⁓ if I just go see a chiropractor, then all of this will be solved and it will be better. And then they get roped into years and years and thousands of dollars of treatment that

Trevor Zierke (1:06:39)
Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is him.

Michelle Yates (1:07:05)
probably was unnecessary, or maybe it was helpful, at least because it was a placebo, which to that I say great, good for you. I'm glad you got your placebo effect. At least you feel better, you know, but but was it worth all the money? ⁓

Trevor Zierke (1:07:07)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And is it more

importantly, is that transferable to anyone else? Right. Your situation might be so unique.

Michelle Yates (1:07:25)
Yeah.

Right. Which, and that's a problem because then you go tell people, I feel so much better because I saw this chiropractor and that is not transferred to them. And it is causing harm in the long run. Unless you have somebody awesome like you who's considering what is truly evidence based? How can we look at the

whole person within your scope, you know, you're like, you're considering them in a holistic way, but you're not stepping outside of your scope, which I think is so important. Like I am not trying to crack people's backs. That's not my job. And yet, I was starting to be told how to eat by a chiropractor I went to go see and being told I should do a food sensitivity test, which I'm like, those are a scam. Why are you recommending this? my gosh, like it's just anyway, so

Trevor Zierke (1:07:50)
Exactly.

We didn't even touch on those. Yeah.

Michelle Yates (1:08:18)
For the listeners, it's not wrong to go see a chiropractor. Just please be wary and please have your ⁓ defenses up, I guess. Would you agree?

Trevor Zierke (1:08:28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

think it's, know, if it's, if it's something where you're like, do feel like I need to get outside help from this. It's not something I can manage on my own. They pass all the flags, then totally go for it. The last thing I want to do is shy away from what could be a good chiropractor, right?

Michelle Yates (1:08:42)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, you mentioned that you do virtual care, right?

Trevor Zierke (1:08:47)
Yes. So I did, I saw people in person for the first two years. ⁓ and then as my social media pages got bigger and bigger, ⁓ I had a lot of people who were like, Hey, like I, I live in California, but I'd love to see you. I'm like, ⁓ which this was new to me was apparently as the rise of other YouTube and Tik TOK chiropractors got there. There's actually people who like fly across the country for these people. They get their back cracked, which is insane. ⁓ so I think that's what people were reaching out to me and they're like, is this like what I need to do? And I'm like, no, like I, that's most of my.

Michelle Yates (1:09:10)
Wow.

Trevor Zierke (1:09:16)
Most of my practice or squirtle work is it looks like we're working out, right? It's just in a very specific way for your goals and your needs and your condition. Right. And I'm like, we can do all that, you know, from where you're at. Right. And it looks just a little bit more like online training. So I started doing that as I was still working with people in person. And it just got to a point where I was doing that 50 50. And I was like, you know what? think I can just help more people just by not spending, you know, a physical, my physical body being with them for an hour a day.

so I just transitioned to strictly online here in this last year. And so now I work with you remotely and it's still, still get the same great results, still have all like the same, same progress and nothing's really changed. It's just a different way to do it. But I absolutely love it.

Michelle Yates (1:09:51)
of that.

I love that so much ever since COVID and lockdown and people doing telehealth more. It's been cool to see which professions are like, we actually don't necessarily need a brick and mortar office. can function this way virtually and still help our clients. That's been me, for example, and it's just so much more convenient for everybody. It's so nice.

Trevor Zierke (1:10:15)
It's convenient and that's, and

it's weirdly enough with mine, like I, I actually, feel like you, they get more out of it anyways, right? Cause it's a big, a big part of, of what, what like me and other evidence-based chiropractors are wary of and why we don't like the adjustment so much as it can create this sort of dependency where like, Hey, even if you're giving them these patients, other stuff, like, Hey, we're doing all this stuff and that's going to help you get better. A lot of it's just nature debate looking like, Hey, I go in and see you once a week. You do this stuff.

Michelle Yates (1:10:22)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Trevor Zierke (1:10:44)
I feel like you're the reason I'm better. Like I need to be coming to see you to feel better by me working remotely with people now where they don't get to see me. It's completely in their hands. Right. So when they make progress and it's like, I'm actually, you know, he kind of me what to do and he gave me guidance and tips and then sort of talked me away through this, but I'm the one actually like doing the work. Like I'm the one doing the workouts. I'm the one doing all this stuff. And now I feel better. Like that's such an awesome, empowering thing. Cause now you can live your whole life with the knowledge of like, Hey, like if that pops up again, like

Michelle Yates (1:11:02)
Yeah.

Trevor Zierke (1:11:12)
can handle it. I don't have to go spend hundreds of dollars to go see a chiropractor. So it's been awesome. Yeah.

Michelle Yates (1:11:13)
Yes, self-efficacy. Love that. I love building that self-efficacy. It's so important. And

it's like teaching someone how to fish instead of just giving them a meal. This was such a delight. I'm so thrilled to peel back all these curtains. I hope that it's very helpful for people who are listening to this. I anticipate it will be.

Trevor Zierke (1:11:27)
Exactly.

Michelle Yates (1:11:37)
⁓ especially because there is so much overlap between people who care about their health, they care about the way they eat, their nutrition, especially the population I work with, with women who struggle with their relationship with food. They're most of the time ⁓ being over analytical about their health and an all or nothing kind of thinking. And I think that that can drive people to try and seek solutions out to every little health ailment.

and then end up in a chiropractor's office. I imagine that this will help a lot with my audience. And I'm very excited to hear some feedback. So if you're listening to this and you're like, this was the best episode I've ever heard in my life, or it was the worst, or you have questions that you would love to hear the answer to, maybe I'll bring them back. ⁓ Let me know. You can actually send me a text leaving feedback. There's a little link in the show notes.

That is one way communication. So if I ghost you, it's because I literally cannot get back to you. It's just a one way thing ⁓ to leave feedback and to ask questions and let me know what you thought of this episode. please do leave that feedback. I really love it and I value it. And I can't wait to hear what people think of this. Please let the listeners know how they can find you and get connected with you.

Trevor Zierke (1:12:56)
Yeah, absolutely. So, ⁓ I'm on social media. My Instagram is Trevor dot Zirke that Z I E R K. I'm sure you'll leave a link to, ⁓ or on tick-tock where it's Trevor Zirke underscore DC. ⁓ I, I post a lot of stuff there. I'm really active too. If people will comment or send me a message and stuff, I try to get back. ⁓ but if you check out my page is there, or if it's, know, you're yourself doing with, with some long-term pain and problems and you want.

Michelle Yates (1:13:03)
well, yes.

Trevor Zierke (1:13:20)
maybe a little bit more advice or even to work together, you can check out all the links in my bios on those pages and learn a little bit more about what that looks like and how that works.

Michelle Yates (1:13:29)
Beautiful. All right. Thank you so much for your time. You're a boss and I can't wait to hear what people thought of this episode.

Trevor Zierke (1:13:36)
Yes, thank you.