Kenneth Givens on Delegating Trust, Leading Up, and Getting Out of the Way

Ron Harvey sits down with Kenneth Givens II, Senior Project Manager at Miller Valentine Construction and published author, for a candid conversation about the leadership habits that separate good managers from truly great ones. Kenneth shares the moment he realized he was building robots instead of leaders — and the mindset shift that changed everything.

Key topics and takeaways from this episode:

• Why stepping in to save the day is actually holding your team back — and what to do instead
• The "fourth quarter coach" principle: understanding why a coach never takes the field during a game-winning drive
• How Kenneth intentionally removed himself from a high-stakes proposal to force his team to rise to the occasion — and what happened
• The power of asking for permission before giving feedback and why it changes how people receive it
• Why debriefs should be led by the person receiving feedback, not the leader delivering it
• Focusing on input over outcome: how Kenneth evaluates decisions based on the thinking behind them, not just the result
• Bringing younger generations into leadership without waiting for a title to justify it
• Why the fastest path to the top is bringing people with you — not climbing alone
• The importance of sincere apology and how one poor emotional reaction can require seven positive interactions to overcome
• How to manage conflict in the workplace while leaving people's dignity intact
• Navigating social media as a leader: being the same person online that you are in person
• Kenneth's 90-day leadership commitment: daring to be curious rather than judgmental

Kenneth Givens II is a Senior Project Manager at Miller Valentine Construction based in Columbia, South Carolina. He is also a contributing author to the fantasy anthology Fires of Retribution, available on Amazon.

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The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this podc...

Transcript

Welcome And Podcast Purpose

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Unpack Podcast with your host, Leadership Consultant, Ron Harvey of Global Core Strategies and Consulting. Ron believes that leadership is the fundamental driver towards making a difference. So now, to find out more of what it means to unpack leadership, here's your host, Ron Harvey.

Meet Kenneth Givens

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Good morning, everyone. Ron Harvey here, Chief Operating Officer, also Vice President for Global Core Strategies and Consulting. Excited, as you guys know, that we run a professional development leadership firm out of Columbia, South Carolina. And our sole purpose is to really help leaders become more effective at doing the right things for their people, making things right, and making sure that they create space for people to grow up under their leadership. But I do the podcast really is for having leaders from across all industries, all walks of life, all backgrounds, just to share and unpack how they got to where they are, what's made them successful over time, and what's been challenges over time. So the podcast is really about 25 minutes. Ask you to hang in with us, share it with your friends, like it. We need you to help us. Like it and post it and tell people about it. But I'm excited to have another guest who I do know, who's here in Columbia with me. Um, have met him over the years and watched him just constantly grow and look for opportunities to grow. So I'm gonna pause and invite him to the microphone and let him introduce himself as I always do um with all of our guests. Uh Kenneth, welcome to the show, man. And uh let me let me invite you to the microphone and introduce yourself and whatever you want to share with the audience.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Yeah, thank you, Ron, for having me. Really excited to be here. I'm Kenneth Givens. Uh I'm a senior project manager at Miller Valentine Construction here in Columbia. Uh I always joke around that that they like me enough to keep me on board, but they don't like me uh enough to keep me local. So I do a lot of traveling, I do a lot of work up and down the East Coast Um and even as far out as California. Um so that's that's kind of one of my passions uh separately. I try to be as active as I can in the community, and I also uh am an avid reader and uh a recently published author.

From Box Checking To Learning

SPEAKER_01 2:06

So wow, man. Okay, we'll have to unpack that. You know, a recent published author, we'll unpack that book. Um, and also, you know, um you do a lot in the community and you're you're at Miller Valentine and you're you're growing in that space. Um, I would like to unpack a little bit for for the audience. As what's most important for you as a as you grow, what do you feel is most important for you as you continue to grow that you didn't think about three years ago as a leader?

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Uh every situation that you're in is an opportunity. Um, I think earlier in my career, I uh almost treated everything as a box that I needed to check. Yes. And I was very much so focused on accomplishing tasks, uh making sure I hit my deliverables, uh, checking all of my goals off, um, and helping some people on my team along the way as well. That was important to me, but uh not in the same sense that I look at things now. So uh even when I'm faced with a difficult situation now, um, I've had some additional training and now I can sit back and look at it and say, okay, what am I meant to learn in this situation? Uh, what can my team learn in this situation? How can I help them learn that uh naturally? Uh I think that's the biggest change. Uh it's no longer about checking those boxes like it used to be. And it's a lot more about uh what can I get from the situation? Also, how can I make this situation work for me?

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yeah. Yeah, I love that you went because most of us do check boxes. Um, how do I get to the next level and look at your resumes, you look at the skill sets or the certifications, all to build a resume, quite honestly. Um, and sometimes we we don't do the work that we need to do internally. And you and we've been talking for a while. Um, you've gone through some programs, you're in Leadership Columbia, um, you served in leadership roles. What do you think has been the biggest adjustment for you in the last 12 months that's made you better?

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Uh that's a great question, Ron. Um the the biggest one, and I wouldn't even say it's 12 months back, it's really in the last couple of weeks and months, even, um, is changing how I contribute to the team. And what I mean by that is uh I used to be the person who kind of jumped in and tried to save the day, uh, mainly because I I thought that's how I could help, right? I have the technical skills to do X, Y, and Z, and my team needs that to be, you know, completed. So uh I've stepped in, sometimes overstepped, uh, and sometimes not given them the opportunity to figure it out themselves, uh, for them to grow. What I realized uh is that I was I was almost building robots on my team. And I realized I was building robots before I realized how I could prevent that. Uh so I had to take a step back. I had to ask uh you know your advice, uh, some other folks uh in in leadership roles advice as to how I can and prevent that from happening. And and they were doing really well. We were you know pretty exceptional as a team and what we were able to deliver, but I wasn't growing them as leaders. And what I realized is that I was actually doing more harm than good when I tried to jump in and save the day. Uh so ultimately uh the feedback you gave me that I think was was most transcendent, or at least the the whiteboard material I have at my desk wrote it up there was, you know, when you're in crunch time, you're at the end of the game, you're in the fourth quarter, and you need to have a game-winning drive, you know, at what point does the coach step in there and make the pass uh to score the touchdown? And obviously the answer is never. And uh so I had to really revise how I looked at and how I approached those situations. Um, I've had a couple here in the last couple of weeks where I've been able to practice that in real time. And my team has, I'll say surprised me, um, but but also not surprised me. And I mean that in a positive way. You know, I always try to instill belief in my team, but I haven't necessarily had to rely on it or trust it, right? And now I've had to actually rely on it and trust it, and and I've seen them be able to step up to the to the plate and uh do what they needed to do to get it done and figure it out uh without me having to step in and save the day. So that was both reaffirming, but but also um kind of I'll say put me in the mindset that that that's the right way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Yeah. I I love that you said I want to unpack something that you said, um, you know, phenomenal conversation. I want to unpack something. Most leaders, we believe in our team as long as there's no pressure. How do you get to what did you do to make sure that your your I say audio match video? The audio is I believe in y'all, but when the pressure's on, my response and what you see me doing doesn't show I believe in you because I step in. What was the shift? What was that that that moment that you know the gears switch for you that your belief align with your actions?

Trust In Action Under Pressure

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yeah, I think it it um I'll say what led up to that moment was it it took me being a little bit vulnerable. So I had to to share with my team that um I I did trust them and I wanted to trust them. I I struggle really hard with with trusting people because of my worldview and understanding my worldview better helped me kind of unpack uh why I have the issues that I have with with trust and being vulnerable and being transparent with my team to let them know that so they could hold me accountable, right? I asked them point blank to hold me hold me accountable when we got into situations like that as I'm growing, just like they're growing, right? They can they can uh kind of lead up right in the same fashion. So um there was a a situation that we had where um I was gonna be unavailable, completely unavailable for a couple of days, and we had a big uh proposal that was due here at the company. And um I I almost I I could have probably changed my my vacation plans and been available, but I had a conversation with my project manager and I said, hey, look, if I come into the room, even if I come into the room with the same uh mentality and focus on what our goals are, and that's for you to lead the show, uh the other people that are in the room are still gonna look to me when they ask questions. And I'm gonna have to divert those questions or try and pass those questions along to you, or I can just remove myself from the equation and entirely and force those people to interact with you directly. It's gonna require some trust on my side, but it's also gonna require a leap of faith on your side because ultimately you're gonna be in a position that you've never been in before. And I believe that you can can do this. Um, you know, I know one of the things that that this gentleman was working on was also his confidence. And I said, you know, what better way to build your confidence to have an opportunity to step up to the plate, right? So um ultimately we agreed, and I made sure he wasn't blindsided by that decision, but we agreed that I was not gonna change my vacation. He was gonna go through and present. And ultimately, uh within I'll say 10 minutes of the end of that proposal, I was getting messages from our leadership about how well that gentleman had performed, how he stepped up to the plate, he answered every question with confidence, even if maybe he didn't feel so in the background, right? Um, but it it proved the point. And it was kind of the writing on the wall for me that, hey, I need to, I really need to do this more often.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah, and and and you gave him permission, which is good, you know, for leaders that are listening, is how do you give people permission? And also sometimes you may have more confidence in that person than they have in themselves. Um, and you can help, you know, develop that by giving them opportunities to say, hey, I believe in you, I think you can do it. You know, so kudos to that particular piece of it. When you think about that scenario, how difficult was it to really let go with your name and your reputation and your brand and your credibility? Everything is literally hinging on what this individual does. How nerve-wracking can it be?

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Uh, very much so. I think it would have been more nerve-wracking if if I had canceled the vacation and maybe been available but decided not to attend the meeting. Um, I was fortunate that I was in a in a situation where I had no internet signal, right? So I I couldn't, even if I wanted to. It's kind of like uh it's kind of like being on a plane, right? If the plane's gonna do what the plane's gonna do and I have zero control, and I find that when I do truly have zero control, it it allows me to actually relax a little bit. Um, but if I if I had been you know somewhere where I could have been available or could have answered the phone, um, I think it would have been more nerve-wracking. And in some of the more recent scenarios where I've I've tried this out with some of our, you know, even younger folks on our team, I've had them set up a call with a a potential, you know, a potential client or a potential partner. And uh they've asked me if I can sit in the room with them while they have the conversation. And that's a little bit more nerve-wracking. What I find is I have to almost kind of fiddle with something or act like I'm checking emails. Yeah, to keep my my, you know, to keep it at the front of my mind that I can't jump in, right? So I'll I'll sit there and I'll listen to the conversation. Sometimes they'll fumble their way through it, sometimes they come in and they they knock it out of the park. And then ultimately we kind of have like an immediate feedback, you know, session afterwards. But um the feedback I've gotten from that is hey, it's it's really cool. We've done this a couple of times now, and I now know you're not just gonna jump in. So I I've got to I've got to deliver, right? It's on me. And and sometimes that's what it takes for them to be able to really perform well, is when they realize you're not gonna step in and try and save them. So some of the folks that were fumbling around a little bit there in the beginning, honestly, now are some of the best cold callers that we have. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Yeah, kind of, I mean, what you're speaking to is you give people uh enough space to fail safely and recover fast, uh, and and not to be self-destructive and and you just sit on the side and watch them totally destroy, you know, everything, but you give them room to make a a really, really honest mistake while they're trying to do it right. But you learn from your errors, you learn from your mistakes. And I think all of us, if we're honest as leaders, we became better through our mistakes faster than we became better from our success. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

We don't learn a whole lot from a whole lot from success.

Debriefs That Build Better Inputs

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Yeah, yeah. I think we so when so when when these individuals are making mistakes, can you share or unpack for the people that are listening? What does the debrief look like? Um when you when this person has done it, you stepped out of the way and it's all said and done. Who controls the debrief if you do one?

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Um, it's it's really interesting that you you phrased it that way, Ron. Uh the control really lies in the person receiving the feedback. Um, and and the reason I say that is because um this is something that I I've actually not always done well uh in my career and in my um leadership capacity, is I've tended to try and direct or or guide people. And ultimately, um I learned something uh recently that's like a tool to use. Um, and it, you know, you can get into a lot of details about it, but ultimately it revolves around asking questions versus making statements. Um and you yourself, Ron, have told me a couple of times, right? You you've never learned anything from making a statement, right? But you can learn a whole lot from asking a question. Uh so um trying our our best to give a little grace, right, when when people fall down, but ultimately ask questions, and it draws back to one of our core values at Emmill Valentine, which is continuous improvement. It's um you we go through a performance review, like I'm sure any company does, but one of the the criteria is results that we we grade on. And I've always been a big proponent of results, the word itself, people focus on outcome. And really, in my opinion, we should focus on on input, right? Because you can make a whole lot of mistakes and still accomplish a goal, but you can also put in a lot of good decision making, right? And do some of the things the right way and ultimately fail. Um, so we try not to focus too much on the outcome, but more about the input. And the only way you can really do that is by asking questions, you know, kind of tell me what your mindset was when you made this decision, what things did you consider, or what factors were on the table, what information did you have? Um, you know, do you feel like you made the right decision at the right time, or do you think we had some more time where we could have maybe gathered some more information? You know, if you were to do this again, how would you do it differently if you would do it differently? Um, and you can learn a lot about where people really are are pulling their data to make those decisions, and ultimately you can maybe have an impact on their input, which I think is a lot more uh helpful in the long term than just recognizing successes and failures based on the on the outcome.

Bringing Next Gen Leaders Forward

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Kim. I want to I want to shift gears a little bit. I mean, there are multiple generations in the workforce. There's there's conflict and conversations between how they work effectively together. How do we get the next generation or the next two generations? Because I think it's more than one. How do we create an opportunity to ensure we bring them to the table sooner than we're bringing them as senior leaders such as myself, um and senior leaders like me that's listening? That, you know, I probably got another 10 years max, if that. Um, and if somebody that's waiting and we're passing, I feel as though we're passing the baton, it's taking too long to get them in position to or to to lead an organization, or passing the baton soon enough. What do we do, or what should we be doing to make sure we bring your generation and the next generation behind you on faster?

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Yeah, I think that's a another great question, Ryan. I I personally um ask what their goals are. Try to meet them where they're at. Because uh I'll say, at least in my experience, um, there's a lot of people that maybe don't necessarily want to move up. And that was something I I struggled with a lot early in my career was I thought everyone wanted to move up and everyone wanted to do what I wanted to do and grow rapidly. And some people don't, right? And that's that's okay, right? How do we still make them better each and every day, uh, even if their goals don't necessarily align with that? Um, I'd say that the second thing is how can we put them in positions to empower them to lead without necessarily tying it to a to a title or role? Um, here at Miller Valentine in particular, we have a a lot of internal committees and subcommittees. And it allows, you know, A, it allows for a cross-disciplinary uh, I'll say, team to attack problems that that we may have or that arise in certain market conditions or even in certain like programming, different things like that. Uh so you get to work with people you may not get to work with on a on a day-in-day out basis, consider different um, you know, diversity of thought, you know, learn approaches from people and how they lead. Uh, but but also it puts some of our newer associates in positions where they can, like you said, fail in small batches, right? They'll be placed in a in a position that doesn't really have a title associated with it, but does carry some reliable responsibility and some amount of leadership over a small group and how they can you know solve a problem together. And it kind of gives them real hands-on application to to better themselves. Um, so it doesn't necessarily tie it to a title or role, but it but it also helps them understand how we function as a as a business. So if they do want to move up, they have some level of insight into other areas than just what they do on a day-in-day basis. Um, and I think that's really helped us. And then I think the the third thing is um for for lack of a better term, get out the way a little bit, right? Um, like you said, give them the the opportunity and make the space. I I think is what you say, what you say very, very well. Make the space for them uh to be able to make whatever impact they can make, right? Um give them the the tools and the processes that they need, but then you know, don't don't hold them back, I think is the the big thing. If they really are trying to move up, um, don't tie it to some arbitrary number of years of experience. If they can really do the role and and and can excel at it, it doesn't matter if they have eight years of experience or they have 24 years of experience. So I think making the the space for them is is really huge. Yeah.

Staying Teachable In The AI Age

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Yeah, I think you're being fully transparent, and I love that you're doing that. So when you when you're thinking about the next generation in the workforce, how important is it for every one of us to be coachable or teachable? You know, um, because sometimes you you become so good and you may be the smartest. But how important as a leader is it important for you to always remain teachable or coachable?

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Uh if you can't wake up in the morning and and learn something that day, uh then I I think you're going about it the wrong way. Um there is so much to learn. I mean, you you can't learn everything. Um there's always, always, always room for for learning. I mean, continuous improvement is is one of our core values, but it's one of my core values. And we recently did some core value assessments with our team, and you know, you'll find that a lot of people um don't even focus on the the end result as much as you may think. They really focus on how getting to that end result actually made them grow. When they look back at it, they they typically don't look back at crossing the finish line, they look back at the trials and tribulations they overcame to reach that that finish line. Um, I think the the learning aspect is is critical. And I think now more than ever, with the the move towards AI, um, the fact that we have so much information uh easily accessible at our fingertips. I think now it's more important for us to understand whether or not what we're learning is truthful, whether it's honest material that we're finding. There's almost an extra added layer, whereas before it wasn't as easily accessible, but typically what you got your hands on wasn't uh you know propaganda, whereas nowadays I feel like a lot of it tends to be. So um you almost have a whole nother aspect of learning nowadays where you're having to validate what you're learning, um, even if it is so easily accessible. But I I honestly think that no matter what you do, um a good day is a day where you can learn something.

Conflict With Respect And Clarity

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Yes, yes, I love it. I want to shift as as we get closer to our time here today. I want to talk about something that that that that I see happening more often than I than I wish it would be happening, is that dealing with conflict in the workplace, um, people being a little meaner or people not being as nice to get stuff done, or rude sometimes, quite honestly. Um, whether it's in, you know, you go to a restaurant and a person on the other side that's is not nice to you or you're not nice to them because something didn't go right. How how do you how do you effectively handle conflict um where people are still left intact and still feel respected? What what do you practice?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yeah, I think the I think the first step is understanding how people want to receive that feedback. That was something big for me to to learn is that not everyone um receives feedback the same way. And also not everyone can handle or receive that feedback in the moment. So uh Something I've started doing here recently is like asking permission to give that feedback and making sure that um they're in a mental space where they're they're open to it, right, and receptive to it. And then I think ultimately being being transparent um has really helped me, right? When I am frustrated, just being able to say I'm frustrated, right? You're you're gonna be able to see it anyways, there's no hiding it. I'm I'm one of those people that wear my emotions on my sleeve. So um sharing, sharing the the the I'll say the transparency, like hey, I I am frustrated. This is why I'm frustrated. I don't want you to feel like that frustration is directed at you because 90% of the time it's it's actually not you know directed at any of the people I'm talking to or working with. So um starting off there and then making sure they're receptive to that feedback, and then we can start digesting, like, hey, uh, you know, like I said, start asking those questions, right? Make the the first thing you say is is really a statement, like, hey, here's what I've observed. But then after that, it's really just asking questions, trying to take as much emotion out of that statement as well on on the front end, you know, make it very, very factual. I observed that we did not send our billing in on time. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about what happened and why that that didn't make it out on time, right? Versus uh just saying, hey, I saw you didn't turn that billing in on time. You know, there's not a whole lot of room for you to maneuver or work your way out of that once you've made that statement, right? You've kind of committed to that path of action. And uh you're either gonna have to backtrack really hard and make a lot of apologies or or you're you're kind of stuck down that path. So um trying to remove as much emotion out of that initial observation statement that you make as possible, uh, even if you are frustrated, even if you are feeling those emotions in the moment. Um and then once you start asking questions, a lot of times I've found that that a lot, a lot of that I'll say negative energy is is kind of washed away. Once you start asking the questions, because then you're curious, right? Once you start asking questions, it's really hard not to ask a follow-up question and another question. And next thing you know, you're having a conversation and you forgot why you were frustrated.

Why Leaders Must Apologize

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Yes, I love it. I love it. You said something, uh, Kenneth on there that I didn't grow up in an era with where what you just said was happening from leaders above me, or even from you know my parents or people in my community that you said apologize. How important is it for leaders to to show the vulnerability to apologize when they're wrong to their subordinates?

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Oh, I I think it's critical. I I think all of the mistakes I've made as a leader, um, because you you still make mistakes, right? You're we're all human. All of the mistakes I've I've made as a leader, I think would have been magnified tenfold if I didn't apologize for them, right? You know, and being sincere in that apology is is super important. People, as much as you think you can put on a mask and be an actor and apologize and and not actually mean it, I don't know what it is about it, but when you make an apology, you it's one of the few things I think in life that like it's really, really difficult for you to fake. You know, people can really tell if you mean it when you apologize. And people will really pay attention to how you react the next time you're faced with the same situation. Um, you know, if you come off as crass or or you know very spiteful uh when a when a certain situation arises and you get frustrated, you'll notice that the next time a situation like that arises, everyone's kind of just holding their breath. They're waiting for that that same reaction to happen. And um, you know, they they say that for every uh you know, one time you kind of let let off that that poor emotion or that poor feedback signal. You you have to do seven uh positive feedback loops for people to really forget instinctually that that that's how you react at that one time. So, you know, as you're you're thinking through how you react to your team and and how you react when you're frustrated or when you're angry or when you're sad, just just know that you know, right, wrong or indifferent, right? You're potentially setting yourself up for a whole lot of apologies in the future and and a whole lot of uh positive iterations of that feedback loop that to counteract what just happened.

Ambition Without The Bull Mentality

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Yeah, yes. And I love that you meant, I mean, what and I think you know, before, you know, people didn't think words would matter. I think they've always mattered. Um, people just dealt with it um for a variety of reasons. They needed their job, they didn't want to you know cause any waves, or they just wanted to go along to get along. But you know, I've learned as a leader that words really do matter. Um, that how you what you say is gonna have an impact on people, and I always talk about impact. Um, you know, words have an impact on people. Um, your behavior does have an impact on people. Um, appreciating people has an impact on people. What would you leave with with leaders that are in your generation? Um, you know, what would you what would you share with them as we we begin to wrap up? How to get more involved and engage into leadership roles um without without this thing that my generation say, well, they want the current corner office and they want a promotion and they want to get to the C-suite, and they just they they've been here 20 days and and they're already looking for the next promotion. How do you what did you tell them to make sure that if that's the mindset to show up, to make sure that that's not how they're received or perceived?

SPEAKER_02 27:13

I think the the best advice I can give with with regards to that is uh people very, very rarely remember what you do, but people always remember how you made them feel. Um when when I was so focused on checking boxes early on in my career, uh it was very easy for me to move up. And what I realized when I worked at a a good company, I started off at a different company, and I won't speak ill of that company. It gave me a lot of great experience, but they were very much so promoting the bull in the china shop mentality. Um, so it was by any means necessary. How can I make it to the top? And uh since I've started working at Miller Valentine, like the the integrity that I think this company stands on is that I can't get to the top by myself. And no one can, right? No one can make it to the top all alone. And if you do happen to somehow find a way to make it to the top all alone, you're alone, right? So then you have to sit with that. I think ultimately, if you want to make it to the top faster, the fastest way is to bring people along with you because ultimately they're gonna push you to the top a lot faster than you can drag yourself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

If you do get there by yourself, you're gonna be one exhausted person.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

It's gonna be a pretty miserable experience. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Yeah, and we're calling human beings. It means we're supposed to be being with somebody, someone, some team. You know, that's it. We're called human beings, you know. So as as as you you said in a in a really, really good way, if you really want to get there, you know, bring other people with you. Um, don't get left out. And for our generation, you know, make sure that you bring people to the table sooner. Um, and because I can tell you now, the next generation is not just, I don't know where we get this phrase, I don't agree with it. Wait your turn. Like, I don't I don't know what to do with that statement because you know, there's some 17-year-olds that that that that are very mature and respond like a 35-year-old, and there's some 35-year-olds that don't respond like they're 35, they respond like they're 17. So I don't think there's a magic number or tenure or time, and and I think over time you you should but get better. But I've met some some people that are older that are not wise at all. So I and I've met some young people that are like they've been here before. That's what we say, man, they they must have been here before. They they know a whole lot to be 17. Uh, so they've been reincarnated or whatever you may want to call it. I think you just understand people, meet them where they are, and take the time to get to know that person, and don't put a an expectation based on who you had a previous relationship with because I think you'll get in trouble.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Yeah, yeah. So, Kenov, it's been great, it's been fun. I mean, you we just you know, we saw each other, uh, you know, had a conference. You know, based on where you are, what's what's next for you? What do you want to get better at? You know, as you look, because I know you do set goals. What is something that you're still working on that you want to get better at?

Curious Not Judgmental Leadership

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Yes, uh, some of the things we talked about today, honestly. Um, I went to a leadership uh institute or training two weeks ago, and uh coming out of that, they they had us commit to some goals and habits for the next 90 days and ultimately it centered on, you know, what kind of leader do you want to be? So they made you, you know, complete the phrase. I want to be a leader that, you know, dot dot dot. So I stole a quote from from Walt Whitman and I said, I want to be a leader that dares to be curious and not judgmental. Um try and try and ask more questions and and gain a better understanding of of my people, um, not just be so dialed into to what we're trying to accomplish. And and and even though they might want to accomplish those things too, it's still important to understand them and and why uh they want to accomplish those goals no different than why I want to accomplish my goals.

Social Media And Managing Anger

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yes, yes, thank you. And I and that's so so important is suspending judgment, um, because then things kick in that may not be relevant. One last question. I happen to touch this one, but I'll use it as a closing question. What do you tell leaders um at all generations? Social media is is is just on a high pace. People are posting and putting, and and I think some people get into trouble with social media. Um, I think there are things that are that are causing people to because people do check your social media. If they're gonna hire you, they look at what you're doing, they look at the comments, and and with so much out there noise and stuff that's just not healthy for us as a society. What do you tell leaders about maintaining and managing their social media?

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Yeah, um, it it comes up more and more frequently every year as we hire new people, having those conversations with them. Um, I I think it it really ties to uh be the person online that that you're trying to be or that you think you are in in person. Uh I think a lot of times people get get um kind of sidetracked and feel like they can hide behind the the screen and say some some really awful things that honestly and hopefully sometimes you know they don't actually mean. Um, but this it's typically things that they they would never say if they were face to face with those people, right? So just because you're typing it, um, and I I give the same feedback when we're talking about writing emails, sending text messages, um, you know, not just on the social media side, you know, something like 85% or more of your uh understanding in a conversation comes from body language, and you miss all of that when you put something into text. So even if you don't mean to harm and that's not your intention, sometimes your, like you said, your words matter and they can cut pretty deeply. So try not to say anything online um that you wouldn't say in person. And and if it's something negative that you would say in person, you know, try and think twice about that too. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

One of the practices, when I'm frustrated, sometimes I'll type out the email and I will never send it, and I'll go back and read it the next day um before like, oh yeah, I'm glad I didn't send that. Uh so don't get them don't emotionally charged. I here's what I've learned I've never made a really good decision when I've been mad, ever.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Right.

Book Plug And Closing Advice

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Like, oh, I'm glad I didn't react to that. So when you get mad, please don't make any decision that will cost you uh another 15 months of trying to fix it, um, because it will take a long time. People are not as forgiving. So I will tell you personally, me professionally, I've never made a great decision when I was mad. So I try not to make decisions when I'm mad. I go find a seat, sit down, get a cup of coffee, go watch a movie, something that just gets me out of that space of how I'm feeling, because I don't want to mess up all the hard work I've done. And you can work 20 years and one hour make one conversation that will mess up 20 years of your career. Um, so please, please monitor your social media, be careful what you're putting out there. Um, and and what what do you want people to remember you by? Kenneth, it's been great, man. Um, if people are interested in watching this podcast and and they want to invite you in, but um, before you go, what's the name of your book and where can we find it?

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Yeah, so I uh I had a short story published in an anthology. The anthology is called Fires of Retribution. It is a uh a fantasy anthology about dragons. So you can find it on Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Awesome, man. I did not know that. I learned something new about him today. Yeah, he's out there. I appreciate it, man. And and learn more about people who they are. Um, so closing remarks, any any closing remarks as we as we wrap up that you want to share that we didn't touch on?

SPEAKER_02 34:39

No, I think the the quick and easy one is be intentional about your time and be intentional about your time with people.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Yes, yes, please do. And for everyone that's listening, you know, I always tell, you know, um, I I figure out something to share with people that's that's important. Um make sure your audio matches video. People people are watching everything that we do now, cameras are everywhere. So as much as you may say what your values are, that you respect people, that you trust people, the minute you don't do it right is what's going to show up on the big screen. So make sure that you're doing it right. Cameras are everywhere. I mean, it's amazing. I mean, their cameras in place I never knew they were. I'm like, I didn't even know it was a camera there. You know, it's like when you play sports and they always tell you when you're an athlete, always know that the camera's running. They're looking the most the most unfortunate opportunity that the camera is going to be on you. It will be, and so make sure you're they're lip reading, they're they're they're checking everything out, they're looking at your hands and your eyes and your nonverbals. As a leader, the camera is always running. I just ask that you be mindful of that and make sure that that is capturing what you want people to know you to be, not what you're faking to be, what you want them to know you to be. So always, always make sure your audio matches your video. Um, please uh share the podcast link with people, like it, give us feedback. Um, if you know some people that'll that'll add value to the audience, we'll love to have them as a guest. And they can find me on LinkedIn or they can go to our company webpage at gcs.consulting, and we'll be happy to have a conversation. Our goal is to add value to everybody that we speak to, and we're gonna always be positive, we're gonna have fun, and we're gonna be respectful. Um, thank you, Kenneth. It's been great. And for all that stay with us, thank y'all for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpack Podcast with leadership consultant Ron Harvey. Remember to join us every Monday as Ron Unpacks Sound Advice, providing real answers for real leadership challenges. Until next time, remember to add value and make a difference where you are or the people you serve. Because people always matter.