Founder Syndrome: How to Let Go and Grow Your Company

In this episode of Unpacked with Ron Harvey, host Ron Harvey sits down with Luke Mickelson, the Idaho farm kid who turned a single homemade bunk bed into Sleep in Heavenly Peace, now the largest bed-building charity in the world. What began in Luke's garage in 2012 has grown into a national movement fighting child bedlessness, and along the way Luke discovered a challenge that quietly derails many founders and leaders: founder syndrome.

Together, Ron and Luke unpack what happens when your identity fuses with the thing you built, why the hardest part of leadership is often letting go, and how leaders can empower their people to take real ownership. Whether you run a company, lead a nonprofit, manage a project, or are raising a family, this conversation offers a framework for growing beyond yourself without losing yourself.

In this episode:

• The garage project that became a global charity, and the moment that sparked it all
• What founder syndrome really is, and its stages: identity fusion, relevance wounds, and the monster
• Why "pause before you protect" is the discipline every leader needs when they feel cut out
• How to give employees genuine ownership so passion, not just a paycheck, drives their work
• Why the sweatiest, dustiest volunteer is the happiest, and what that teaches about engagement
• The freedom in asking for help and letting go of "fake it till you make it"
• Ron's reframe for the stories we tell ourselves: "based on what?"
• How letting go, like Bezos with Amazon, lets a vision grow far beyond what control ever could

Luke Mickelson is the founder of Sleep in Heavenly Peace (shpbeds.org) and creator of the Founder Syndrome Survival Course. Learn more and take his founder syndrome assessment at LukeMickelson.com, or email Luke@LukeMickelson.com. Find him on social media as Luke Mickelson or SHP Luke.

Host Ron Harvey is Vice President and COO of Global Core Strategies and Consulting, where he helps organizations develop leaders who take care of their people.

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Disclaimer:

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this podc...

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Luke Mickelson

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Unpack Podcast with your host, Leadership Consultant, Ron Harvey of Global Core Strategies and Consulting. Ron believes that leadership is the fundamental driver towards making a difference. So now, to find out more of what it means to unpack leadership, here's your host, Ron Harvey.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Well, good morning, everybody. This is Ron Harvey. I'm the Vice President, the Chief Operating Officer for Global Course Strategies and Consulting. And if you're following us for the years that we've been on podcasts, you know that we do all professional development people business. We spend most of our time making sure that our organizations are taking care of their leaders to be effective at taking care of their people. That's in a nutshell. And that goes from trust to communication to relationships to dealing with you know five generations in the workforce, people problems. And if you have a business, I promise you you've encountered people problems. We love it, we enjoy it. But today is not really about global core. I love having our guests on Unpack with Ron Harvey. And I'm excited to have another guest from coming from Idaho. I don't introduce anyone, so I'm gonna move out of the way and let our guests introduce themselves. They get to share whatever. Y'all, if you follow me, you know that's what I do. So hey, Luke, I'm gonna give you the microphone, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Oh Ron, you're a dangerous soul. You know, that's a that's that can that can turn ugly quick. No, no, thanks for having me on. Look, I I you know appreciate the chat before. Nice to meet you. Um, thank you for having me on. I, you know, and I don't think a lot of podcasters get the credibility or or at least the thanks that they deserve. I know I know you make a million dollars doing this, right? You know, no, really, I mean, I know what it means to run a podcast. They're not easy, they're not cheap, they're not it takes a lot of time, but it's a platform for for people to hear stories and inspiration and and navigate troubled waters. And we wouldn't have it if people didn't spend time creating podcasts. So again, thanks

Discovering Child Bedlessness Up Close

SPEAKER_02 1:55

for having me on. And yeah, you know, in a nutshell, I'm a I'm a farm kid from Idaho. Um, you know, and and the reason why I'm even on this show is because 14 years ago in 2012, uh in my small town, you know, about three or four thousand people, um, I was serving in my church in a position called Young Men's President. And that young men's president position uh allowed me to work with the youth, uh uh, you know, boys as ages 12 to 17. And, you know, I'm a football coach. I'm from a small town. I love coaching and teaching and working with kids and activities. And so it was right down my alley. Well, sometimes, not sometimes, a lot of times nowadays, trying to find an activity for you know young, young men to enjoy and do that doesn't involve a screen or a computer is often a hard thing to do nowadays, you know. And and even back then it was it was hard. So sitting in this position, right? And and I had um and let me step back just a little bit further. Um, you know, I grew up in the small town. I served a mission for my church, went to school, got hired on by a local water treatment company, and and served in that in that role as executive vice president of marketing and and sales, and then was going to buy the company. And and this all was happening around 2012. Well, serving in this in this role on my church, I attend meetings um every other week. And in one particular meeting, they start talking about uh other leaders start talking about uh people in the community that we were helping. You know, the church was providing food or or you know, assistance in some way. Well, one leader started talking about a family um that caught my ear. First, it caught my ear because they lived in an apartment complex I didn't even know existed in this small town. And I've been riding my bike around it since I was five. You know, come on, I don't know where this place is, it's crazy. Um, and then she started talking about the things that this family needed. You know, the mom was the local school bus driver, dad suffered from some mental health issues, you know, had a hard time holding a job. They needed help. And so the church was helping them with various things food, clothing. Kids needed uh a bed, they needed to rise to school. And I said, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Did you say the kids don't have any beds? And she says, Yeah. And I'm like, Well, they I mean, certainly they got a mattress, right? She says, No, they're just sleeping on the floor. Wow, and that hit me so hard. Like, I I'd been a part of service projects, obviously with the boys. It was Boy Scouts, really, is what we did a lot. And so I built wheelchair ramps and stadium seating and all this stuff before, but beds for kids, like I didn't even know that was a real thing. Uh, you know, we live in a country that we shouldn't that shouldn't be like that, you know. Yes, and so it really pricked piqued my interest. Plus, then I thought, oh, you know what? Here's a great opportunity to get an Xbox controller out of these boys' hands, put a drill in it, and teach them something, right? And so, and so that's what we did. You know, I went home and measured my daughter's bed, but she had a bunk bed, you know, and kind of patterned this this design. I'd never built furniture before in my life, but you know, being a farm kid, you you kind of figure things out, right? And so uh and so that's what we did. And these boys came over, and for a couple of three nights this week, this back then, um, you know, we built this bunk bed, and uh it was amazing. It was a lot of fun. It was great to see the kids, you know, get the taste of of service, you know, and enjoying service. And I remember it brought me back to my missionary days where my mission president gave me some of the best advice I've ever had. And that's Luke, if you ever, whatever career you go into, whatever job you pick, always look at it as a way of serving others, right? And you'll never work a hard day in your life. And he wasn't he wasn't too far off, you know. And so I wanted the boys to learn that. Plus, I wanted them to appreciate the things they had, like a bed for crying out loud. And well, mission accomplished, right? Uh uh the the word kind of got out that we were doing this project and everybody wanted to go on this delivery, and I couldn't send 30 people over to this two-bedroom apartment, you know, it wasn't gonna work, and so I stayed back, I didn't go on the delivery, but the Boy Scouts and their parents did, and they had a great time, it was amazing. And I and I, you know, I loved it, I felt a little jealous, you know, but it was great, you know, and and we solved the child bedlessness problem in the world, or so we thought, you know. Um, but the the next week came around, and and for me, I was kind of going through a little bit of a life crisis, a little faith crisis, a little identity crisis. You know, I think people hit this mid-30s and they start questioning all sorts of stuff, and I was right smack dab in the middle of that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

And I want to I want to I want to I want to unpack something really quick,

Leading Without Projecting Your Life

SPEAKER_01 6:34

though. And I want to put a pen in the crisis because I want to come back to that because leaders are dealt with crisis, and and sometimes I think we make it look easy like leaders don't go through crisis. So I want to put a pen in that for a second, though. I want to go back. You look, you spoke about you heard they didn't have beds, and and you had to come to grip, come to terms with that's a real thing. Yeah, how do we leverage that? Because sometimes as leaders, we don't know what's a real thing, and it's a real thing for people that we actually lead, that we're responsible for, responsible to. And sometimes we project our lives on their lives and they're nowhere even close to us, what we have or don't have as leaders. How do you help leaders that are listening to this to really understand that some things that that we haven't been exposed to or experienced are real things for real people that work for us?

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Yeah, you know, it's a great question. Um, I'm not sure I have the right answer. I will say, I think we, you know, we leaders understand, good leaders understand that, you know, it's not just your perspective that matters, you know, and and I think it's really important. I I always my management style is always listen, you give a guy a job, guy or gal a job, let them do it. I mean, they're gonna and if you expect them to do it perfectly, yeah, you're gonna have some trouble, bro. Because just like you, they're gonna screw up. And but here's the beauty behind that. You know, if you allow someone, allow and think about these words, allow someone to screw up, right? You're giving them the ability to fix it, right? Now, if they don't fix it, of course, as leaders, we gotta we gotta do something about that. But once once someone fixes it and they feel the support from their leader, a couple of things happen, right? You build a relationship with that employee, number one, but the biggest thing, and I speak a lot about this in my keynote speaking, when I talk about listen, you need to allow your or your individual employees, the people that work for you, and and all, they need to feel a sense of ownership, not just in their position, but in the company, right? And and when you do that, right now these people have the ability to create a certain level of passion for what they're doing, right? If you don't allow that, you know, if you're up there as a boss just saying you got to do this, you got to do that, because it's only your perspective that you see, and you don't allow others' insight to come in, but you don't give people the opportunity to really embrace their position and embrace what possibly could be a very big passion for them. And trust me, once you create passion in your employee for what they're doing or what you're trying to accomplish, and they feel involved and they feel contributing and they feel like you know, almost like a startup, you know, hey, this is carrying forward because of me, you know. Oh man, that that's where the that's where the real magic happens, you know.

Building Ownership Through Hands On Service

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Was that your intent on there? Look when you think about it, because you could easily, I'm sure, uh, without making assumptions, it would have been easy to just go get some beds, take them over, find them, get some help, someone to donate or purchase it yourself. It would have been easy to get some beds, you know, um, than it was for them to get beds.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

But you didn't go that way. Was that your vision to ensure that you get buy-in or you get them to be a part? Like, well, because you made that decision, but I don't want to just drive by that. I want to unpack that so people that are listening. You could have gone and got beds. What made you decide to build?

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Well, you it's a great, it was a great question. I really never looked at it as a conscious decision, right? Um, I I was more concerned with, well, that's not true. I was gonna say, I was more concerned with providing a service for my Boy Scouts, but of course, we wanted to solve this child bedlessness issue. They just locked in together very well. And and quite frankly, as we built more beds, right, um, you know, I quickly realized we serve two purposes. Sleep in Emily Peace, the organization I started because of this situation, I we serve two purposes. Of course, we build beds for kids. You know, we're the largest bed building charity in the world now. That started in my little garage, right? And there's a lot of reasons why that. But one of the biggest reasons is because we serve a second purpose. And that purpose is we provide service for people to do. And I and I learned a long time ago that man, there are millions of people in our country and in our neighborhoods and our neighbors, period. They they're really good people, they want to help, they just don't know how, right? And and by allowing them to come in and and be a part of the solution, not just donate dollars or or you know, tell people, which is all important, but that physically put their hands on wood that we teach them how to, you know, drill and screw and hammer and all sorts of stuff at the end of the day, you got to bed, right? They get to be a part of the solution, and that's where I learned. Listen, you know, it was it, I'm seeing this magic unfold to me in in front of me, where you got people that show up for hours, they're sanding and sawing and drilling, and their dust is everywhere, you know. It's not actually easy work. In fact, I was always worried that I made it, I wanted to make it easy for these volunteers because I wanted them to come back, right? I needed them, and so and listen, all you nonprofit leaders out here, here's a gold nugget for you. I don't make what you do, your mission, don't make it easy per se, because you're robbing that volunteer of the experience you loved, which is getting your hands dirty, feeling the joy of

Why Hard Work Creates Fulfillment

SPEAKER_02 11:56

hard work. You know, I had a had a situation one time where an old an old guy came in. I mean, he's like 500 years old. This guy was an old dude, right? He came walking in and uh at a service project, and he's like, Hey, Luke, where do you need me? And I'm like, Well, first, I don't want you to die. Okay, just stick with me. No, really, he I said, What did you do for a living? And he says, Well, I was a carpenter for 40 years. And I'm like, Okay, I know exactly where to put you, I'm gonna put you at the saw, right? What the one tool we can't screw up, yeah. And so, and I put him there, and and quite frankly, he started going, and then when you're the only guy in the monst of 80 volunteers that know how to do this, build this bed stuff, you get pulled away quite a bit, you know. All this well, four hours go by, Ron, and I forgot about Hank. I and I was like, Oh crap, I gotta go see if Hank's alive, right? And sure enough, you know, he was back there just finishing up, and his clothes were as dusty and was white as his hair. I mean, he was just covered, and it'd been four hours. And I went up to him, I'm like, Hank, I am so sorry. I forgot about you. I was so busy. And he says, Luke, let me tell you something. He gave me that, you know, that grandpa smile. Oh, great, here it comes, right? He says, I've donated my time my whole life, did you know, did uh volunteerism my whole life. He says, I've never shown up to an event, and in five minutes, I was put on an assignment and it was so busy I couldn't I couldn't stop. Like people were I, you know, they're waiting on me. You know, he says, I couldn't even go to the bathroom. And I was like, Hank, I'm sorry, I should. And he held up his hand and he says, No, thank you. And I went, I mean, I'm thinking in my head, this guy's about ready to ream me, you know, and he says, Thank you. And I learned right then, the happiest volunteer, and you can relate this to your business employees, is the sweatiest and the dustiest because he feels the fulfillment that comes from his participation. You know, when when people want to volunteer and take their time out of a Saturday morning at a cold warehouse in the middle of Idaho, right? They don't want to just push a broom around or punch a button, right? They want to feel like they were a part of the solution. And when you extrapolate that uh into business, it's it's the same, right? Your your employees want to feel like they're a part of the business, you know. And I think it takes real skill and leadership to be able to still control, you know, you still got to control the situation and your employees, but if you can find a way to include them in their decision process, allow them to take ownership of their role, then you create a passion in them for what they're doing. They they're now, quote, invested in your organization. And that's what you want. You want those employees to be invested and do, you know, for you what you want, uh, which is creating an environment uh of passion for completing whatever it is you're whatever it is you're doing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

So so Luke, when you you talk about it and you got this this vision and this dream, and and you know, for leaders, whether for profit, non-profit in your community, in your family, oftentimes if it's a really big dream, how do leaders make sure that they get out of the way? Because I get it, but because you you none of us are good enough. I've never seen where one is a great enough number for you to be great, it's not big enough. How do you how did how do you help leaders get out of the way so people like Hank that can show up and all the other volunteers? Because most of us we don't want to overwork or we don't want to make it too difficult because there's a story in our head, we don't want to lose them, but that's what they really showed up for. And I think we cheat them out of opportunity. How did you get out of your own way? Well, you know, it's difficult.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Um, uh, you know, people have their own personalities,

Founder Syndrome And Identity Fusion

SPEAKER_02 15:40

and and I get it. I mean, when when you start an organization, um, and this is part of a I have a course I call my founder syndrome survival course, right? And we can talk a little bit about founder syndrome, but when you're a builder or or when you're when you're an entrepreneur, I mean, what what do we do? We we find problems, we see problems, and we're solution-oriented, right? We're gonna solve this problem, right? Um, you know, and and oftentimes, especially in the nonprofit world, where some of these organizations, most I should I would say, start because of some very personal connection, you know, whether it's like me, I couldn't think of about a kid sleeping on the floor, or maybe a sister committed suicide, and so you're gonna start an organization or someone's got cancer. I mean, all of these organizations, particularly in the nonprofit space, start because of something very, very personal. Well, which is beautiful, right? And now you're very passionate about it. That's why you start it, you get it rolling. It becomes your life, right? It just becomes you. In fact, the second stage of founder syndrome is identity fusion, where you, you and your organization just fuse together, right? You become one. It's your baby. I mean, everybody knows you or knows your organization because of you, or vice versa. You know, 99% of the people on this planet only know Luke Mickelson because of sleep in heavenly peace. And of course, that's what I want, right? Because that's that's the organization that I wanted to promote and and and raise awareness about and do all that stuff. The challenge, though, is when you become identity fused, you're wearing all the hats, you're solving all the problems because you're starting it up, blah, blah, blah, right? Well, as business evolves, you know, and it will, especially if it's successful, and you as an entrepreneur and a and you know, this identity-bound person wants it to grow. Well, it's gonna evolve much differently in business and leadership than you are. Number one, it's not a person, so it doesn't have feelings, right? Where we do, you know, and I tell entrepreneurs listen, when you start a company, the best advice I'm gonna give you before you even write pen and paper, you need to realize one thing. This organization you're starting, this company will not love you as much as you love it. And that's important to understand because as your business evolves, and I'll get I'm answering your question, trust me. As your business evolved and you evolve, you don't evolve in the same direction, right? Your business needs new management, it needs new policies. Boards on nonprofits tighten up so they're the governance tightens, which is all great things, they're all amazing things, it's what you want, it's it's signs of growth. But as a leader, right, when you start taking hats off, right, and you're starting giving these hats out to other people, a couple of things start happening that you don't even know. And this is what founder syndrome is all about. It's a it's a problem that we don't talk about very often because it it's just it's so subtle. You're taking these hats off. Well, a couple of things start happening. You're not needed anymore, right? Which is great, but as a as a someone so identity bound to this organization, that identity starts to defuse. This fusion starts, you're not centralized anymore around one person, which is all great. But for that one person, because you're so bound to it, you start feeling like you lose yourself.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Not in the not in the sense that I don't know who I am, but this wonderful organization that's becoming more and more successful, you start feeling disconnected from it. I've talked to a lot of founders that are like, Luke, I don't even know if I have the same passion. And trust me, they do. They do. They just because of this diffusion and this, it's not a reluctance to allow other people in. You you know you need that, you know you want that. But it's the feelings that that that get created, this defensiveness, this I've lost control, this, hey, listen, I'm not needed as much, so I must not be valued as much. You know, these are very hard, hard feelings that we get when our business evolves beyond ourselves, right? Which is what we want.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

What's the challenge though? When you think of it, Luke, what I'm thinking as you're speaking about this diffusion, it's like having a kid that at some point, if you do it really, really well, there's going to be a disconnect and you're not going to be needed as much. Matter of fact, you hope you get to where you're not needed as much. I use that analogy all the time, by the way. Yeah, I'm like, look, wait a minute, I got I got some kids that I want that diffusion to happen, and I want them to be able to do it because you know I want them to live without me. And so, what what have you what advice do you give? I love what you're talking about, the founder syndrome, where we get stuck, and we get back into the crisis. But what's the sound piece of advice that you give people that are in that place? And there are a lot of people that have a hard time letting go, delegating, trusting, empowering, and their companies are stuck because they are in that place of not diffusing. 100. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

What do you tell them? Well, first of all, if I can give you a little shameless plug, you know, if you go to my website, lukemickelson.com, there's founder syndrome tab, there's an actually uh an assessment. It's 18 questions or so that you can you can answer, and it gives you a score of where you where you sit relative to other people, right? That you can see how deep and connected you really are to your organization, which is great. It's great, but that deep connection becomes very difficult to deal with. So, it to sum up your question, um, I that's why I created a founder syndrome survival course, because there are not a lot of help out there specifically for founders that are going through this. I think there's there's a lot of coaching that happens, but to be able to identify exactly what it is, right? Um, that's why I created the course. I mean, I have five disciplines that I teach people when they when they start becoming what I call relevance wounds, right? That's the third stage of founder syndrome. When when you get stabbed all the time, I mean it's death by a million cuts. You get stabbed by little things. Oh, you know, oh, a decision got made. Why wasn't I asked about that? Oh, a product got sold over. Hear what I didn't know about. I mean, all these little the minute they get left out.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Oh, they get this company. Let me go look who signs the front of the check. And is it just mine? Is it just my vision? Blah blah blah. My my my my and my gets us in trouble. So I'm loved that you're you're going here because it happens not just for founders, it happened for people that are promoted into a new role or position. Like you have to just be the new supervisor, and the project is, you know, even in our company. I say, look, the project you're in charge of, but the project belongs to the team. You just happen to be the lead on it. So please don't say this is that's why.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

No, that's why that's why the course it it when you when you when you go through the course, it's not just about founder syndrome. It's not founders, see it's founders, CEO. Really, the first stage is to build something that could be an organization, that can be, you know, a company, that can be a project, you're a project manager, can be a superintendent that's building a build, all these things that you become invested, sometimes very, very much so, you know, that your identity fuses with it, right? You're the project manager over a building that you're building. Well, oh, that's Joe's building over there, right? They start using that nomenclature. This is Joe's building. Oh, have you been over to Joe's building down there? Um, you know, whatever. So he's creating an identity fusion with this, which is great, right? That means he's invested, he's passionate about it, he wants to get it going, yada, yada, yada. But what happens then as we allow that that opportunity, that that project, that company to outgrow us, which is which is what we wanted to do, right? You know, a lot of people say we gotta let it go, and you gotta, of course. And as a founder, as a project manager, as a leader, we know that. Like, I'm not dumb. I know I need to let it go, but it's dang hard. And they don't under other employees that aren't in the same shoes, right? That's extremely hard. Those are just words to let it go. And you know, and that's why I I started this this uh founder syndrome survival course, because there are disciplines, and I'll give you the first one to kind of give you a taste taste is listen, when you're cut, when you get that that relevance wound, am I

Pause Before You Protect

SPEAKER_02 24:12

relevant anymore? Because someone just said, you know, I had a friend of mine, nonprofit, I'm helping with him. He he says, Look, there was a six hundred thousand dollar check that came in, no one told me about it. This is the founder, yes, right? And he's like, Man, it hurt. I mean, that's a relevance wound. That's where you just got cut, right? What did you want to do? And he's like, Man, I wanted to get on the phone, I want to make some phone calls, I want to see what's going on. You know, blah, blah, blah. And I said, Listen, step discipline. You're nobody flip over some tables. And here's the thing, you're so excited. And and it and it went through the right channels, right? It went through the the finance department and they got deposited and they wrote it down, and they, you know, all that stuff. It went through the right channels, but because because it you used to answer all those questions, you used to be over all that, you created the departments, you hired all those people, blah, blah, blah. This is a big moment, blah, blah, blah. And no one told me about it. You got you just got relevance cut, right? Your first reaction is to protect.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

So I teach people, listen, pause, pause before you protect. And in that pause process, right? And this is not new science here. This is this is very common, but in that pause process, you need to realize where am I at right now, right? And if you don't realize that you're in founder syndrome, if you don't realize that the monster, that's the fourth stage, by the way. The monster back here is talking to you, going, man, you know, what are they doing? Are they trying to push you out? Right? Are you no longer even relevant anymore? Do they even care? I mean, all these things, this monster's feeding you these terrible thoughts, you get defensive, you know, and you start lashing out. You start asking questions, you start flipping tables over. Well, too many tables will result in you getting kicked out of your own organization, right? Or at least it's it it stagnates a lot of growth, too. So I teach nonprofits or well, rather, any founder or CEO. Listen, your first reaction needs to be pause. Pause. And that pause can take days. I mean, when you're talking about an organization that you started, that you if you fused your whole life together. I mean, you you moved your kids and family across the country, or you, or you you you sacrifice birthdays. I mean, you spent your blood, sweat, and tears building this thing, you know. Of course you're gonna want to protect, of course you're gonna want to stay in control and feel relevant to that, right? But you gotta pause first, you know, and and realize that, hey, this is an organization, right? This is a business that grows and evolves beyond what I am. I tell people, listen, it's kind of like when you have a cold, right? Or you're you have some sort of symptom, right? And you go to the doctor, Ron. And if the doctor tells you, man, Ron, I don't know what's wrong with you. How does that make you feel? Yeah, I don't want mystery. I want you to figure it out. You feel terrible. And now this monster that you can identify is even bigger. Oh my gosh, do I have cancer? Am I gonna die? You know, you just create these horrible narratives. I don't know why us humans do that, by the way. Um, versus if the doctor says, Ron, you have pneumonia, go take XYZ and you'll be fine in three days. Oh, okay. Now I have a game plan. Now I know what it's dealing with. Now my wife, who I've been a pain in the butt with because I've been miserable and blah, blah, blah, she's like, okay, Luke, now I understand why you've been a you jerk, you've been a jerk lately, you know. And if you relate that, right, when you go through Founder syndrome and you don't know it, and you're reacting poorly and negatively, inside you're hurting really bad. People don't know it, they don't know why, they don't understand it, you don't even understand it, right? But when you finally identify the monster that that is founder syndrome, then you put yourself on a course where okay, I recognize quote quote, I'm sick or I have an illness, right? Or I'm affected rather by something that now I can stare it in the face and deal with it.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Wow. Yeah, I think you share it. I mean, I love that you spent a bulk of the time there. I mean, because it's a real conversation that we're not having consistently or enough about hey, I built this, here's where I am. And this isn't every role for all the listeners. This happens in everything I think that we do when it comes, you know, you look, I look at graduations and people get, you know, hey, my baby's leaving. Well, we've been prepping them to leave the entire time they've been alive to go off to college or to go start their own families or to go to to to explore life. But there are people that actually sometimes I've seen where they hold their children back because they want to keep them close by.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

I've I've literally watched, I say, yeah, but didn't you prepare them to go live life?

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Yeah, and I think we do that in companies, we do that with nonprofits, we do that, you know, in our business, it's it's very easy to get to this place where you don't want to let it go and you want to have control over everything in in your organization, and that's actually impossible if it grows. Yeah, you stifle it, you yeah, you slow it down. Yeah, well, and I just you know, you think about where you are, you know, um sleeping peace, heavenly peace. What was the moment that happened to you outside of the one you shared about Hank? What's that one thing that you can share as we look at time? What's something you can share that will resonate with people to begin to be more curious about how you can support them? What happened to you?

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Great question. You know, it the beauty about living in the nonprofit space is you you have to rely on people and their good-heartedness and and treat them differently because they don't get paid, right? It's certainly not at the beginning of the of the organization, right? And and and that and that and I learned a lot of lessons. There's a difference between nonprofit and for-profit volunteer employee relationships, right? But not as much as you think. You know, um, I learned that the you know, I was we were creating positions that have never existed on the planet Earth ever, right? You're a build manager over bunk bed building. I mean, what is that, right? No, no one's ever held that position in their life. So I would literally hire people to say, listen, I will give you what I think that position is gonna entail, but I want you to come back three months from now and tell me how much that's changed to what actually needs to happen, right? And and and I think in some ways, um, I learned a very valuable lesson there of just like I said earlier, allowing people to get invested in whatever assignment or a role that they play. And when you and you know what, there are people out there there, let's be real, there's bad employees, right? There's people that just can't get over this is a paycheck. That's it, right? And as a leader, if you can get them past that hump, right, realizing that of course they're there because they need to make money, but if you can get them inspired enough to get past that hump, to have them actually be invested in whatever they're doing, you know, that's where you're gonna have huge success. You know, people are part of nonprofits because they have a heart for it, right? They, you know, maybe they've experienced bedlessness themselves or have seen it. And that, you know, I don't for me, I like I did, I quit my full-time job. I had no job in line. I quit it because of a passion I had for helping kids. It wasn't gonna help my own family, I was gonna starve, right? But I could not give it up. And and uh, you know, the when you think about that, it's because I was so invested and so passionate about what I was doing. That's that's where like you get so much buy-in from your organ, your your employees and your organization, and that's where you start seeing real growth, right? And as leaders, right, you know, I try to help uh leaders understand exactly what you said. Don't don't hinder your own organization simply because, and listen, it's not about control per se, it's not about ego. I know it looks like that, and I know as a leader's right there listening, going, it's not, it's not about ego. I I don't care about where where I fit into it. I don't care that you know, XYZ company was founded by Joe Blow over here, right? But Joe is going, but I do want it to be successful, right? And I do want it to continue, and that could be a that can be a hard, a hard lesson or hard emotion to get over to see it grow with without what you feel is your needed attention. I don't know what you're gonna say.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Yeah, I uh it's a hard lesson. I'll tell you that, you know, um 21 years in military service, you know, it's one of the things they they train us really, really well on. Um, that leadership is a non-event, you know, and it helps us, you know, and we move every you know, two years to you know, three years, we're moving into the next thing, and we only have so much time to get this thing right, and they're gonna move us. And so mentally we're we know that it doesn't belong to us. So every soldier I've ever led, every team or every squad, the people I went to combat and have brought I only had them for a limited amount of time, and I had to pass the baton. And what I do think that we've we have not gotten, we haven't done well in our entire society, regardless of where you're at in society, we don't pass the baton well. We want to hold on and run every leg of the race, and we're not designed or equipped to run every leg of the race forever, right? And and I think for us as people that are listening, just run your leg of the race. It may be 50 yards, it may be 100 yards, it may be 20, but but you you don't have the whole race. And I think we get caught in there. So I'm I'm grateful for the military teaching me early on. It helped me let go of my kids, it helped me you know see them and let other people mentor. Have you seen leaders that get in the way of people helping them mentor people that that they can't mentor? Like they can like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

I mean, I think I think people um they so leaders lead by example. I think that's one of the biggest traits of a leader, right? Um, some people have leadership qualities that obviously are better than other people's leadership qualities, right? You know, there's some people I I look at my own sleep in heavenly peace, right? So I'm not the greatest manager, you know. I I I'm a forward thinker, forward, forward, forward, forward, forward, move forward, forward, forward, right? You know, it's kind of a salesman in me. I like it. And and now my my best friend who kind of helped me get this thing rolling a long time ago, he's now the he took my role as executive director. He's he's far more. Let's slow it down, let's establish a base, let's not build the plane as we fly it, let's build it on the ground before you know what I'm saying. And both of those, there's not there's goods and bads, pros and cons both ways, right? You need both. Yeah, and that's why I think sleeping on the piece is so successful, is because you know, the two guys that that the at least got it, you know, when when it got up and running, the two guys running it are are very different. One's one's a salesman, sell, sell, sell, understands that you gotta spend money to earn money and you gotta do this and do that. And the other one's like, Well, we gotta hold expenses and we gotta manage things and we gotta blah blah. So, I you know, I think when you're the the the key is realizing, and I'm speaking to myself right now, Ron. Go for it, you know, realizing realizing that okay, I'm around peg. I'm I need to stop trying to fit into square holes, you know. Um, even though I think I'm cocky and confident enough to do so, there are people that are square that fit in that square hole much better than I do.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Yes, and to think you're talking to more than yourself, you talk to our listeners too. I'm not thinking I own it, but yeah, you're talking to us.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Well, you know, hey, I think, hey, listen, we're all humans, we all we all in some ways are alike in just in in other aspects, right? That

Stop Faking It And Ask

SPEAKER_02 36:01

that you know, one of the greatest uh questions I ever got on a podcast, which is a simple question. Um, you know, they said hey, if you could go back to your 20 self, right? What's the one advice you give your 20-year-old self? And I thought about it for a minute. I was like, you know, I don't know. Um, I know what I would have said 10 years ago, it'd be like, you know, you know, practice more, you're gonna be professional football. I don't know, whatever, right? You know, but really honestly, I wish I could go back to my 20-year-old self and say, listen, dude, I know you think you know everything, I know you think you want to know everything. And I know, and here's the key I know you think when someone's teaching you something or you hear something you don't know about, you don't want to let people know because you think it's weakness, yeah, and it's not right. I wish I I wish I could tell myself, listen, everything that you don't know, if you hear something you don't know about, don't be quiet about ask. Ask, let someone teach you what that is. I I've spent too much too much of my time um in my early years pretending that I knew what people were talking about, pretending that I knew that, right? Had I just said, Oh, that's interesting. I don't know, I don't know much about that. Could you tell me more? Oh my gosh, I'd be so much further ahead.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

They set us up too, Luke. They set us up. There's a whole phrase that we used to say for security, uh to uh no based on what you're saying. This old saying, and most of us fake it until you make it. If you listen to this show, stop faking it until you make it ask for help. Tell them tell us you'll know what you're doing. You can save all of us some time. You don't need to pretend for the next six years until you figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

Just ask you. I told my wife, I said, Man, I feel like I've spent most of my life acting, yeah, faking it. Like what and the stupid thing is is Ron, why do we do that? Why do we why are we so afraid to say, you know, something is I don't know. The other day, this happened the other day. This is the stupidest analogy, but you know, if you take an orange and you roll it around before you peel it, it peels better. Yeah, I have never heard of that ever, you know. And here I am with my family, you know, it's it's Memorial Day weekend and they're peeling oranges all over the place. And I'm like, why the hell are you rolling around on the ground? I don't care. Yeah, and all of them looked at me like I was crazy. They're like, What are you talking? You don't know about this, and I right then I felt I felt the 20-year-old me go, oh crap, I need to act like I know this because I'm looking I look stupid right now. And then my you know, my 50-year-old goes, You're an idiot, like that's okay, you don't know how to peel an orange, but isn't that true, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Isn't that example, right? It's absolutely true. I mean, and so for those that are listening, I'm from Florida, so we knew the orange trick because we got oranges everywhere in the backyard. We do that, but for those of you that that didn't know, it's okay for you not to know everything. It is okay. So, leaders that are listening, it is okay not to know everything, but it's not okay not to ask for help. Ask for help. Yeah, that is not okay. Please ask for help. Matter of fact, there are people who get excited that they can help their leader.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Yeah, well, again, you know, how excited are you when you are able to go help someone? Yes, you know, it there's a bonding thing there that happens that's needed. I mean, leaders, it you know, it can be a challenge. I don't know, Ron, does it does it feel like us leaders that when we allow certainly whatever you want to call it, an employee of ours? I don't want to use the word subordinate, but you know what I mean, right? Um, when they teach us something, right? I think as a leader, you tend to go, I've lost my stature with him or or or her, or or I I sh now I'm showing a little bit of weakness because this guy I'm supposed to be over and know everything is actually teaching me something, right? That that's a that's a feeling. I think it it's hard to it's hard as a human being to to not to get over that, or at least for me. It was it was always hard because you're a confident person, you're you know, you're you're people look to you for answers and whatnot. And when you don't have that answer, um then it can be a sign of weakness.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

I'll tell you that you know, for our listeners, what I what I do in those situations, you're absolutely right, it can be a concern or an issue to to work through. Yeah, but what I did for myself to help me navigate that space, when something new happens, and I used to always say, Well, I've I used to tell myself internally, well, you're supposed to know, not because I had been taught. I used to tell myself, I'm supposed to know because of my age or because of my position or because of my degree or because of my title or because of my longevity, all these other things. But no matter what, if you get 35 and never driven a car, well, how should you know? Or when you have your first kid, and because your parents raised you and you saw other people raise their kids, you don't. I used to tell my son all the time, I'm learning how to be your dad, so you better hang on, just like you learned how to be a son. I'm learning how to be a dad. So we're gonna be in the face here, baby. So get ready, I'm gonna mess up some stuff. Because how am I supposed to know? Yeah, if you've never been exposed to it, never really tried it, never really asked questions. Sometimes I think we're very hard because we put in our head we're supposed to know, and I always say, based on what?

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Yeah, oh, that's great. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

And when someone says that to me, Ron, I'm supposed to know this. I'll just look at it and say, based on what, Luke. And it freezes them like uh, yeah, great question. I'm not sure. Let's let's figure out so you don't have to say that to you. So I think we just gotta pause long enough to say, I'm supposed to know, followed up with that, followed up with a question based on what? Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, and if you don't have data to support that, give yourself a break.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

You know, I was just gonna say that gives you, I don't want to use the word excuse, but a break. That gives you a little bit of grace in in not knowing something that may be very obvious to someone from Florida that knows how to roll oranges. Guess what? You don't you don't have to roll potatoes, I'll just tell you. But you're right, you know, you're right. I love that. I'm gonna use that, Ron, you know, based on what?

SPEAKER_01 42:17

That's that's awesome. Yeah, because it slows it down for everybody because it allowed you to reflect um and and really be honest with yourself. Hey, you know what? I'm supposed to know how to parallel park. Well, my kids today don't have to. I mean, a car park itself, it would teach Maya how to drive. It was insane because I was judging her based off of like my driving experience and what I had to learn how to do. So she gets in the car, Luke, and she gets ready to back up. And you know, when I learn how to back up, is throw your arm over here and put your head here and look back, my blah blah blah. All this stuff that I learned, and she begins to back up and she's looking at the camera in the car. Cars are designed with these drive me and something like, What are you doing? Dang. I said, No, you need to look back, blah, blah, blah. She said, I can see everything here. It's actually more accurate than me turning around. I like she's not wrong, Ron. She's not wrong. I'm like, okay, all right. But I wanted to respond. I just like close my mouth, say, baby, you're right in my head. Now, here's what I was doing. Yeah, but that camera ain't gonna pay for an accident if we get it. So I didn't debunk it, I kept my mouth closed. Sometimes I got no one to be quiet. Don't debunk what's true. It was true, she was actually right. That camera is actually more accurate than us because they can see the curve and everything else that you can't see when you're looking back. So I think sometimes you got to be okay with based on what she was right.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

Well, and doesn't this all wrap together? You know, doesn't it? You when you look at a leader, you know, of course you're gonna be you're gonna be put in positions where the the people in your underneath you or in your team, they don't know, and they need they they need you need to provide an answer, right? And that's what a leader needs to do. It needs to be you need to provide an answer. Now, where that answer comes from doesn't always have to be your own brain, right? You know, and and be open. And sometimes the best answer is, guys, I don't know right now, but let's find out. Let's figure out. Yes. You know, and when you start it, when you start a nonprofit like building beds for kids, because no one knows that child bedlessness is a problem. And and and when you start that, you know, you're relying on a whole lot of people's uh experiences and and life expertise far beyond your own skills to grow it to a level you want it to. And I, you know, and I think what really helped me, and I'm so grateful for obviously a lot of reasons for sleep in heavenly peace, but me personally, it allowed me to see the value of employees. Like, and what I mean by that, what they what they can bring to the table when they're in the trenches, right? Um, because you know, when they're out there, you know, I I have to rely on the data that they bring back to be able to make decisions, right? And if you don't have that trust from your employees or whatnot, they're the they don't, it's just a paycheck to them, then they don't bring back the value, the data that's so valuable to help your business grow even further, right? So um, you know, it just all comes back to understanding that we're all humans, right? We all make mistakes, we all know stuff, and we all don't know stuff. And and if we can see the value in each other um and allow the that value to come out, um, you know, I think it's just a better road.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

I love it. I mean, it it brings me back and I thought I probably use this question more often, you know, when when you know that I use to when I tell myself I'm supposed to know something. But as I'm listening, you know, I hear a lot of leaders say, hey, my team don't trust me. Based on what? Yeah, or they don't trust me. Based on what? I don't know. I mean, I love the question that I use, you know, that I use internally, I just haven't used openly on the podcast, is oftentimes the story we're telling ourselves is based off of what used to be. And and I want to make sure that I'm I'm thinking ahead, looking ahead, living into the future, because sometimes we're holding on to stories that are no longer accurate. Um, you know, yeah, I think there's a lot that we people think we should know, but we used to put that pressure on it.

How To Reach Luke And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_01 46:20

So with our time, I want to be able to make sure people know why to why to reach out to you. I mean, I I love the conversation. I definitely have to bring you back on. Um, there's a lot more for us to unpack together. But if you for the listeners that are paying attention that are with us and and and always like reaching out to our guests, what are some reasons um based on the company that you run and the work that you do, what are some things that will be happening that that says, hey, pick up the phone and call Luke? This may be a you may need to reach out to him.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Yeah. Well, the obvious one um uh in a different light, you know, founder syndrome is is something that I personally went through, right? And and had Lauron, had I not recognized it, had I not had a a wife that would point it out to me, help me, had not had I uh uh an executive director who's technically my boss, right, be my best friend and and be patient with me as I discovered this phenomenon I was going through, these feelings, these hurtful, painful, you know, uh feelings that I know weren't me. You know, uh I've gone through it and I understand it now. And I can and and my search to try to find those answers, coming up with Neil, right? I knew then and there, okay, I think there's something that I can offer other people that are in the same situation trying to deal with these relevance wounds that that we get stabbed with all the time. You know, I think that's the biggest thing I I've learned personally. Um, and I think that I can help other people understand what they're going through and realizing, look, it's you it's not about acceptance, right? I I hear a lot of people, I just accept my role. Okay, I understand what you mean, but acceptance is almost as a as a leader, as a as a what that's like giving up. Yeah, it's like going along to get along. Yeah, going along to get along. And yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Uh, but it's not that. It's it's more you're understanding what you're going through, right? You know, if you have if you have a cold and you're sneezing or whatever, right? You just don't accept well. I guess this is this is just what I'm what I'm doing the rest of my life. Sneeze. No, no, no. There's a reason. There's a reason why you're going through it. There's ways to help, there's ways to mitigate that. The crappy thing about founder syndrome is it'll never go away. You'll always have it. So we need to learn how to deal with it. We need to learn how to move through it and identify the monster and shrink him down, and you know, and so that, yeah, so that would be the biggest.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

I love it. I mean, I can only imagine what Amazon would would be versus what it is if Jeff Bezos wanted to hold on to 100% of the company.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

It just wouldn't be what it is today. I mean, and and and he's still the face of it, but he's not majority owner of it. And when you think about that, for it to be what he envisioned it to be, oftentimes, which is the beauty of it, is he ends up owning more than he would have owned if he tried to control all of it himself. It just wouldn't have grown to what it is. The the bit, I mean, it would have still he probably would have had limited success. And and oftentimes when we hold on to it, Luke, we have limited success. You get it versus what your company really could do. How many beds can you really make if you be who you need to be? How many kids can you really serve if you really be who you need to be? And get out of the way of the places that's just not good at. How do people reach you? What's the best way to reach you?

SPEAKER_02 49:34

So you can, I mean, I'm on all social media platforms. I mean, just type in Luke Mickelson or SHP Luke, you're gonna find me all over the place. My email address, Luke at lukemickelson.com, pretty simple, you know. Um uh you and please learn about sleeping on the piece. You can go to our website, shpbeds.org. That's shpbeds.org. You know, you're gonna you're gonna find it's not a big national website, it's actually the closest chapter to you that we built it for because we want people to know what's going on in their own, their own chapter, their own community, right? So building beds and providing beds for kids that don't ever have maybe never ever had one, please reach out to shbbeds.org, try to find us, right? And if you're a founder that's or or suffering from what sounds like what we're talking about today is founder syndrome, please reach out to me. You know, um, I I speak to far too many founders, uh, business leaders, CEOs that struggle to the point where I mean, there's people that have committed suicide because of it. And and I and I can see it. I mean, if I lost SHP, which at one point in my life was almost my entire identity, you know, um, it would have been tough. Uh, and there's people out there that that need to understand that they're suffering from a particular thing, right? And unfortunately, not a lot of people can relate because not a lot of people are founders or CEOs or have built something like they have built that has identity fused with them and and they just need some help working through it.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Yes. Well, Luke, it's been great, man. Thank you for reach uh reaching out. Thank you for coming on and definitely would love to bring you on. And especially, I mean, I got a company I think you ought to talk to that does bed sheets and everything for kids for beds. That way it'd be a nice connection. I'll make that connection on LinkedIn for you um and connect you with it. Um, but thank you again, and for all of our listeners, thank you for hanging in with us. I mean, Luke and I had a great time. I love the founder syndrome, I absolutely love it. I think a lot of people go through it, and that's across all. If you're in a leadership role, sometimes you get caught up, you get stuck, and it becomes your entire identity. Um, and I always say, Who were you before you had that? Get back to the basics. I mean, those are things you get to do, but please don't lose yourself. Um, you got to be invested, but don't make it everything about you. So thank you for joining us. You can always reach out to us. Uh, Luke and I gave you all of our contact information. If you know someone that'll be a great guest that's going to share something that's beneficial to our audience, I'd love to have them. Um, and please share the link with someone else, tell them about what it is. Um, we'd love to hear from you. Thank you all so much for following us. Um, you know, it's been about going on four years and you've been following us continuously.

Closing Message And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 52:10

We appreciate it. Um, and thank you so much. And for now, Luke and I will sign off and tell you, have a great day. Enjoy yourself.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpack Podcast with leadership consultant Ron Harvey. Remember to join us every Monday as Ron Unpacks Sound Advice, providing real answers for real leadership challenges. Until next time, remember to add value and make a difference where you are or the people you serve. Because people always matter.