Let's Keep Talking with Braxton Gilbert
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Let's Keep Talking with Braxton Gilbert
Stop people pleasing | Matt Phifer
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Dive deep into the heart of self-awareness and relationship dynamics with us, as we unravel the enigma that is narcissism and its influence on personal boundaries. Our conversation journeys through the tricky terrain of human behavior, as we dissect the spectrum of narcissistic traits—from those that can be healthy and self-preserving to the toxic patterns indicative of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. With the guidance of our insightful guest, we shine a light on the different faces of narcissism, the covert manipulators and the overt attention-seekers, while equipping you with the tools to recognize and protect yourself from the subtle tactics of gaslighting that can plague any form of relationship.
As the narrative unfolds, we explore the intricate dance of codependency and narcissism, where our guest shares profound personal stories and therapeutic insights. Understand how the cycle of over-giving and the hunger for reciprocation feed into the narcissist's playbook, as we delve into the importance of confronting our own people-pleasing behaviors.
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Understanding Narcissism and Setting Boundaries
Speaker 1Yeah, dude. So the reason I asked you to join me is because I'm really interested to hear some of your expertise and insights around narcissism. And before we get into some of my like specific questions, could we kind of paint the context of what being, what a narcissist is, and maybe kind of what it feels like to be involved with someone who's narcissistic or what it feels like to be a narcissist, if that's more fitting?
Speaker 2Yeah, I can't. I mean I can describe what it might feel like. You know from what. You know what it feels like. I'm not, you know. You know I'm not diagnosed with narcissistic or anything like that, so I can't describe what it feels like. I can talk to people about what. I definitely can talk to people about what it feels like to be with one in an intimate relationship, or you know the experience that people have if they have, because a lot of times people talk about it from the context of a romantic relationship and then people forget that they're in our everyday life. Sometimes they might be a coworker, it could be a boss, it could be a sibling or a mother or father, it could be a friend and and it can look very differently in each and every single situation. So to kind of you know kind of a short cut a little bit about what you're asking, first and foremost, narcissism is on a spectrum. There's a lot, a lot of false and a lot of bad information out there, especially on social media, when it comes to narcissism, almost to a point where people paint narcissism as if it's a black and white issue either you are or are not a narcissist where in reality, literally every single one of us have narcissistic traits, have narcissistic qualities about us. So typically when people ask about narcissism, they're asking about narcissistic personality disorder, or what people call NPD. I'm going to get into that in a second. I'm going to talk about the spectrum of narcissism, because as I talk about narcissistic personality disorder, a lot of people are probably going to listen to this and like, oh, I do that, maybe I'm a narcissist, and that's very, very common for people to do so.
Speaker 2Narcissism the health, let's say, call it the healthy version of narcissism we all every single one of us, you and I all need it. It's actually a need that we all have. Why do we need it? A lot of people are like why would I need narcissism? That sounds so mean and so cruel and things of that nature. Well, if you really think about it, if you go through a bad situation let's say that you get really sick, let's say that you lose a job, you lose a loved one there's a point in time where you actually need to need your healthy, healthy version of narcissism. You need everything to be all about you for a period of time until you get back on your feet. If you break your leg, god forbid.
Speaker 2In any of those type of things you do need the world to be kind of centered around you to. You need help from other people. You do need to ask and for a lot of people that might even feel uncomfortable because they're so used to being helpful, and most people, great majority of the people once you do get back on your feet, you tend to kind of even back out. You start to realize, you start to thank people. There's typically a level of appreciation, a level of gratitude you typically might give back to the other person and you kind of acknowledge that, yeah, I needed people at this time.
Speaker 2Well, people who struggle with narcissistic personality disorder, they it's like that all the time. Everything is all about them all the time and I think that is. You know, that's very, very, that's kind of a very generic way to explain it. But when you know, even within narcissistic personality disorder, we have we have different types of narcissists. We have what's called the classic narcissist, the what people consider the grandiose narcissist. This person is going to come across as someone who is a lot more bullish, someone who this type of narcissist you typically can see this person coming, coming from a mile away, you know, has to be the center of attention. Kind of like, kind of like a Donald.
Speaker 1Trump character.
Speaker 2Yep, yep. And so then we also have, like you know, what's considered more of a covert narcissist, where they might be kind of a little bit more laid back, a lot more, a lot more. I mean definitely covert, but they might come across as more meek or more vulnerable.
Speaker 1Covert means like undercover, right Yep. So it's like an undercoat.
Speaker 2So what I like to describe the way that I like to describe covert narcissists is that they like to create drama and then they sit back and watch the entire watch the drama unfold. So then they're not the center of it, whereas the classic narcissist, the grandiose narcissist, they want to create it and they want you to know that they're the ones that create it and that they're the ones that are at the center of it.
Speaker 1So if somebody's just like I'm hanging on with you here, if somebody is, you know, undercover narcissist, right, their covert narcissist, then they want to create the drama and then step back and watch it all happen. How is it still about them?
Speaker 2They get so narcissist narcissist they feed off of what people call supply right. They like having control over other people and, if you think about it, if I can create drama and if I can, if I can create drama and I can create havoc and I get to, it's almost like watching a TV show that you have control over, right. So imagine just to give you an example, this is something that's very common. People who are listening to this might probably have experienced this where you have a person that you're having conflict with and then they try to gaslight you what's wrong with you. You need to be on medication, there must be something wrong, trying to convince you there has to be something wrong with you because you have a disagreement. Well, instead of there just being a disagreement, they go to your friends and your family member you need to check on Braxton. I don't know what's going on with him. Don't tell him that I came to you, but I think he's depressed, even if these things are not true. He's just crying all the time and just making up sometimes fictitious things or half truths or outright lies, and so then, so you have this person that is typically very close to you telling you there's something wrong with you. You need medication, you need to see someone, even though you feel fine. You just have a disagreement.
Speaker 2And then you go to another close friend and they're like hey, is everything okay? And you're like, yeah, why, I don't know, just something seems off. And then you go to another person and they've you, don't? You don't realize that covert narcissist has gone to that person. Hey, is everything okay? And before you know it, four people are asking you if you're okay and you're starting to literally question yourself. This is where this is what true gaslighting actually is. It's crazy making right. It makes you. You start to wonder like Well, maybe I'm not okay, like maybe everyone else is noticing something that I'm not seeing in myself, like I feel fine, but it may be, I am crazy, maybe I am losing it. And this is where it starts to really start to unravel, where you start to really start to question your own reality.
Speaker 1Because in that case you have someone who's kind of campaigning on your downfall. They're going around sharing. That's interesting that both of them are kind of operating from a lack of power, right, or the need to feel powerful. One is making sure that you see them as God and one is kind of playing the insidious, secretive devil of sorts. Yeah, that's pretty interesting, man. So, okay, when we, how can we begin to identify when someone's really high on the spectrum of narcissism and and begin to like position ourselves in a healthy way to not get lost in the sauce of just horrible, like the worst version of ourselves? In relationship, like you said, it's not just romance and we get to that in a minute. If you pick a narcissist, what does that say about you? But in work, if you have a business partner or family, how do we recognize the tendencies that are narcissistic, very high, high narcissism, and those that we deal with every day?
Recognize and Address Toxic Relationships
Speaker 2Believe it or not, and I've been doing this for several, several years. I tell people to stop looking for it. Stop looking for it. People get so obsessed with trying to find out, trying to figure out who the narcissist is, who isn't, and I tell people to just focus on how people are treating you, point blank, period. That's great. How is that person treating you? Does it really matter? Is it really that big of a deal? I mean not that big of a deal. Let me rephrase Does it really matter if the person is a narcissist or not? If they're treating you like shit, that's great. Does that matter? Like who cares what?
Speaker 2The title is right and the reason why I say that is that there's a lot of other reasons, a lot of other disorders that someone might mistreat you. They literally could just be a prick. They could just. There's a lot of people get really fixated on narcissism, but there's so many other disorders on that same cluster B spectrum. We have borderline personality disorder. We have anti-social personality disorder, which is sociopathy. We have a histrionic personality disorder. Do we really need to continue to date this person or befriend this person and try to figure out which type of disorder, if any, that they might have, or can we just say, like you know what this person mistreats me, I don't like the way I feel when I'm around them and I need to end this relationship Because one typically we have to understand, and the reason why I say that is that most people who find themselves in narcissistic relationships with a narcissist typically struggle with boundaries and typically struggle with people pleasing behavior and typically struggle with allowing kind of allowing for people to push that envelope far, way, way, way too far, and they typically are too overly nurturing, like trying you know they'll spend years trying to figure out if this person is a narcissist or not when meanwhile, simultaneously, this person is cheating on them and mistreating you and using them and wiping out bank accounts.
Speaker 2Do we really have to figure all that out? You know we can sit here and we can say that these things are unacceptable, these things are deal breakers and, you know, decide to move forward rather than, you know, allowing for someone to mistreat us and then wonder if they in the reality of it is that unless and even if you are someone who is a therapist and Can can diagnose and knows about diagnosis and things that you're too close to diagnose anyway. So just focus in on the way that people treat you. Focus in on being a good communicator yourself.
Speaker 2Focus in on Setting and understanding what healthy relationships look like. Be someone who learns how to build healthy relationships. But the one of the big things, especially if you're developing a new relationship, if it's a whether it's a friendship or a romantic relationship, is to go slow, because the what, what? Narcissism. On the surface, it's not that big of a deal. It's a really big deal if you're actually in a relationship with them, when you're sharing a house with them, when you share children with them, when they have access to two things that they can control.
Speaker 1Yeah, when it's resources and you're like really a man's life.
Speaker 2Yeah, when you're in meshed it's a really big deal. But the reality of it is that you probably run across them, you know, a couple of handful of times per week and you probably don't know that. Notice, it's a cashier, it's, you know, your boss, your co-worker, you know. As long as you're not completely in meshed, you know you're typically, typically gonna be fine. So if you're early in any type of relationship, I would tell and encourage for you to go take those relationships slow.
Speaker 2Yeah and if you think about Relationships right now, the way that people move at a very quick pace, people are typically moving in within the first year, having kids within the first year, those sorts of things, and then that's, you know, year and a half later, that's when they start to realize oh my gosh, this person is completely toxic and narcissistic people.
Speaker 1People would slow down, they would see these things very, very clearly man, I think it's really cool the way that you kind of redirect the conversation away from the narcissism into our own power. It's a great, you know, it's a great kind of poetry there. The the radar for just mistreatment is probably the best thing you can develop because, like you said, it doesn't matter, you know, if someone's narcissistic or they're just they have a shitty fucking life, or if they're, you know, anti-social or they kill people and they got them in their basement and they don't want you like whatever, it doesn't matter, it's just how? How can you Develop your responses?
Speaker 1I love that, matt, because it puts the. It puts the chips back on your side of the table and gives you your power, which says I can, you know, oh, I can walk away from these things and you know the they're like the proclivity to want to label people as bad Kind of ignores the reality that we are responsible for the life that we were living. And, yeah, we want to say like, oh, they're messed up because they're a narcissist, oh, that's why our relationship that lasted for three years too long was hell or you know, fill in the blank, but deciding that it's my responsibility to To heal, so I don't get caught by that, if there was, if, if people healed from the tendency to people please, what would happen to the narcissistic tendencies and people? Would it just kind of disappear?
Speaker 2They. Well, they would find supplies somehow, somewhere, you know. But you know, if there was some sort of magic pill, you know, and we were to snap our fingers and all people pleasing would stop, you know you might see more narcissistic on narcissistic relationships. You know, you know they, you know they they're, you know I'm sure they find a way to survive. Here's something that's very interesting About people pleasing behavior and codependency, and that's worth thing and part of the reason why I Circle that kind, just like you said, I circle that conversation back to the other person. In terms of healing, codependency is not the opposite of narcissism, it's the other side of the coin and a lot of people that's an uncomfortable Conversation that a lot of people don't have. It's a lot of the reason why you know. You know, going back to something I said earlier, that there's a lot of misinformation when it comes to Narcissism and why, the reason why I do focus back on that that other person healing and you know the codependent they have needs that need to be, need to be fulfilled as well.
Speaker 1They're looking for a lot of external validation similar to the narcissist and Like a code, you know, but it sorry, like like a codependent in the sense, because the way I understand codependency is like the tendency to take ownership for other people's Problems and receive, like my sense of validation, be able to fix what they have going on. And that creates this like that drama triangle of sorts, where they're feeling like impeded upon and we feel unappreciated Because I'm trying to help you and like that, right, that's codependency and your kind of operating definition.
Understanding Narcissism and Codependency
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean that that's certainly a part of it and that another, you know some other parts of it. You know Can be people pleasing can be, you know the lack of boundaries. You know codependency again just like on, just like narcissism, is also on a spectrum, you know it can. And people who struggle with people pleasing and codependency Also tend to sometimes they can have a lot of these narcissistic traits because of the lack of boundaries. They tend to overly give, whether it be financially, physically, their time, their energy, and once they're depleted, you see this other side of them, because they're give, they're overly giving, with the intent of actually receiving something back. And yet, and when they, when they're depleted and they still haven't received what they are Anticipating, as you know, love and acceptance, you'll see the other, what I call a pop right, where all of a sudden you see I don't after everything I've done for you, right, and all of a sudden you see this whole other sides. Wait a second.
Speaker 1I wrote down what she said, but I'm just think I realized what I wrote down. Code of penance is the other side of the coin of narcissism. Yeah, so like my own codependency tendencies are a Reflect, or like the same degree of narcissistic tendencies that I have.
Speaker 2It's yeah, it's yeah. So like the, you know, so, not opposite, but like the other, yeah, the other side of it. Right, so you're. So you have to so with narcissism, the reason why they do the things that they do is for self-serving Needs, right? Yeah, both narcissists and the and the codependent are like at a deficit and they're trying to fulfill their needs. Rather than using self-love and healthy coping, hope coping mechanisms, they're actually using other people.
Speaker 1So, like you're, you're a. You're a narcissist at the same degree. You're codependent.
Speaker 2No, like You're. So the opposite side of the coin, so your codependent to the extent of like the, you know, maybe like a narcissist, that you're with Right. So not not to the same, not to the same degree, like in this. At the same time, gotcha.
Speaker 1I didn't know if that meant that, if, because I have codependent tendencies, I tend to lose the boundaries and assume responsibility for other people's happiness and kind of get my validation by being the hero and that kind of thing right, and so I don't know if that was like oh, that means also your narcissist, like that's a narcissistic tendency, but you're saying that I more so fit like a puzzle piece for the narcissist. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, makes sense, man. How can we be less, how come we be less susceptible to people pleasing tendencies and Really proxying and forcing our boundaries with people because, like we said earlier, doesn't matter why they're mistreating us, it's, it's mistreatment. How can we develop, how can people develop, our sense of boundaries and and stability in our independence?
Speaker 2You have to learn how to become more authentic. We have to understand. So people pleasers and I'm a former people please or myself and I've had to have, you know, a lot of people, a lot of people and therapists, you know, I'm, I'm thankful that I've background therapy. I'm a, I'm a, I'm a therapist, but a former. I don't practice anymore but, um, I've, you know, I had access to a lot of mentors and a lot of therapists who they're giving me therapy. But because I knew them, we're able to just kind of give it to me straight and like Matt, we got to cut this people please and shit out, you know, and and just give it. You know, give it to me straight rather than like, rather than therapy, because here's the thing, here's the uncomfortable truth about people pleasing. This is very this is controversial, even though it really shouldn't be.
Speaker 2People pleasing is actually a. It's not malicious and intent, but it's a manipulative behavior and it's an uncomfortable truth that people pleasers need to hear that their, that their tendencies to people please is not just being nice as the way that we have, like thought of it, it's. You know, it's actually very uncomfortable for other people right, let's put narcissism aside but it's uncomfortable for other people. The reason why it's uncomfortable for other people is that they know what's gonna happen if they actually do set a boundary with you. Right, it feels uncomfortable, it feels like rejection If you you know you as a people pleaser.
Speaker 2You know, you know what it feels like whenever you or you're, you're, you're not advances your people pleasing requests yet are denied. Right, you feel like, well, it's almost like, well, what am I supposed to do now? Like, does this person not like me? Do this person not love me? Do they not want to be friends anymore? Do they? Because you were, there was an ulterior motive, you really weren't doing it just to be nice. Right, there was a need that needed to be fulfilled.
Speaker 1You mean like I'm scratching, I'm scratching, I'm going out of my way to scratch your back and hopes you scratch my back Bingo yeah, and you know we we need to learn how.
Speaker 2So people pleasers need to learn better, healthier boundaries. Right, when I tell people we need to learn them in five different areas? Right, mental, or some people call them conversational boundaries. Certain conversations that I just flat out will not have, yeah, right, period Online, maybe I will have them with certain people behind closed doors to snap whatever you know, but certain conversations, just you know, or maybe you just won't have them right here right now. Yeah, people pleasers might struggle with that because they don't like people mad at them, you know, which kind of gets me.
Speaker 2Brings me into boundary number two. We need emotional boundaries. It is completely okay for one person to, for the person that you're with to be mad or upset and for you to be feel completely different than they do. Yes, they don't even. Just because they're mad or upset doesn't even necessarily mean that they are talking about talking about you, you know, and so, and then we need boundary number three, which is financial boundaries. That speaks for itself. You need to have limits on how much, how much budget, how much you spend, how much you're gonna spend on your significant other People pleasers can tend to, especially when it comes to gift giving and buying and Christmas time. You know they'll spend their rent money on a Christmas gift and things that. And then we need boundaries around our. This kind of goes in with financial. We need boundaries around our physical, our material possessions right, our houses, cars, that sort of thing. We need boundaries when it comes to our physical body. Yeah, and let's see.
Speaker 1And our time really.
Speaker 2So physical, emotional, yeah there you go. Time, time slash, energy, right, and that's one that I think that people pleasers always, always struggle with. You know, let's say you have a free weekend, this upcoming weekend that someone asks you to, but you're also very, very exhausted from work or whatever it is that you have going on, and someone asks you to help them move.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Well, if you don't have the energy, right, if you're depleted, then the answer really should be no.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Right and it doesn't. You know, you don't have to have. You know, just because your time is available doesn't mean that your energy is. You know, and those are some things that people pleasers need to need to learn is how to be authentic and how to be okay with people not being okay with you.
Speaker 1This. I'm definitely a people pleaser in my life not necessarily as much now as I've learned a lot more about it, and I'm really grateful for that. But it's little insights like this that we're talking about now that have, like, you know, you learn the same thing twice, but the second time you learned it actually like there's perspective and depth to it. You know you didn't really get the concept, but the idea that if you're, if you struggle with people pleasing, it's a manipulative tactic you're Can be.
Speaker 2I wanna kind of clean that up because there's and where I said you know earlier when I said it was controversial, it can also be a trauma response. Sure, yeah, so when we grow up or if we're in a situation where we're in danger, where we are, you know, people pleasing at some point in time in your life probably got you out of a bad or sticky situation with someone who was abusive, someone who was harmful, whether it be mentally, physically, emotionally or whatever the case is. But once we leave those situations, once we're out and once we're safe, just, and we're just people pleasing, just, you know, getting through life, yeah, our default setting now is people pleasing.
Speaker 2That's a completely, completely different scenario. So I'm going to give you an example, because if you ever bring this up to people, there's a potential that people might get really upset by this. But let me bring If you bring what up A perspective People pleasing, being manipulative. And let me bring some perspective to this. So people pleasing is a trauma response. Well, so is the fight response, right? Well, guess what? Guess what is underneath the fight response? It's narcissism. No one's okay with that. You see what I mean. No one's okay with someone just walking through life in their fight response as a coping mechanism and mistreating people that way. Yeah, right, no one is okay with that. And so we have to understand that that, like, when we bring that type of perspective, like no one would say, like you bullying somebody else is okay, just because it's a trauma response.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2No one is okay with that.
Speaker 1Yeah. And in the same sense, if you're yeah, if you go, if you're people pleasing as a trauma response, even in the later years just your adult life now and you go like well, it's just because this is the way I was treated, you go, well, the response is still something that's antisocial. It's not helpful. This isn't a good thing to be doing.
Speaker 2It's a you know, and just because it's not malicious and intent yeah doesn't mean that it's not harmful to other people and doesn't mean that you know that other people don't see you as inauthentic, because and people who struggle with people pleasing don't see how this can turn off actually healthy people who might want to win a good relationship.
Speaker 1Yeah, a hundred percent. And you know, maybe it's not always manipulation, but it is always an indirect form of communication, right? Okay, and that was that was for me. What kind of broke that into something that I could digest? Finally, it was like yo.
Speaker 1The reason when people request things of you you get an emotional, overwhelming response of obligation is because you feel like if you don't oblige to this, then you can't expect them to do something for you later. That you're not necessarily communicating to them is really important and a significant thing, because I don't even have the vocabulary to have that kind of conversation. But I just knew. I just know that when that, I have known that when that moment comes up and someone requests something of me, I feel like I can't reach for the word no, I can't say no to them, because how the hell am I going to get what I need if I don't just give them anything they want?
Speaker 1Right, the boundaries thing is interesting because, like there's a nuance to understanding boundaries, matt. Like you know, I like what Henry Cloud says in his book boundaries. That, like a boundary is literally where one person ends and the next person begins. You know, it's not like a no, you can't do that, it's like that's not yours and what's yours is yours. What's mine is mine, and in relationship is when we start from that like a good relationship is where we start from understanding what's our, what's mine and what's yours, and then there's no entitlement to the things you own and vice versa, and we can share intimacy as we actually make requests to each other based on what our needs are. Right, it's such a simpler way to do it, too, when you go like yo, what about, instead of trying to take the long route to getting your needs met, what if we just felt our needs and communicated with our words to those that we want to get those needs met from? Yep?
Speaker 2I tell people, give them the answers to the test Right, just you know, instead of healthy people I wouldn't do this if you think you're with the narcissist but give people the answers to the test right, rather than you know, some indirect way of you know. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to do this, I'm going to say it like this and maybe they'll you know, just you know. Hey, this is what I was thinking.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting thing, man, that I've sort of noticed in myself in my life recently is that I try to take what I'm going to tell someone and I try to consider what they're going to say back and then reiterate, like rewrite, what I was going to say to them in anticipation of their response. And recently I realized how stupid this was, because I'm not even giving them the chance to talk Like I've just. I've already rewrote the text three times before I sent it. Well, not even I just assumed how I thought they respond. The first one I said I let them participate in my problem solving of their response that I hypothetically made up. Yeah, that's cool, man, people pleasing. Any other insights you have on how you can, how anyone who relates to people pleasing can begin to heal in that response?
Navigating Boundaries and People-Pleasing
Speaker 2I would read it. I would read a lot about it. You, you're going to want to link up with a coach or a therapist, because I think that it really helps when you're able to role play things out. One of the things that happens when people who struggle struggle with boundaries you know you're going to have to get used to people not liking you. You're going to have to get used to people also telling you know you have to start learning also how to respect other people's boundaries as well, because now that you're going to be a lot more authentic and a lot more direct, you're probably going to hear the word no more often as well.
Speaker 2It doesn't mean they don't like you. It doesn't mean anything. Yeah, you know, it's just. It's literally just no, can't you know whatever, whatever the case is, but, but you know role playing different scenarios that maybe you haven't been in before. You really really helps, helps in those situations. You know having different I tell people to have have like a you know a bucket full of like. Go to like words and phrases of you know of different things. Like you know in different scenarios, like whenever you're setting a boundary, or vice versa, when someone is setting a bound, setting a boundary with you. It's oftentimes when we're in the heat of the moment and we're not prepared and we don't know what to say that that's when we typically find ourselves getting ourselves in trouble. Yeah, we have no experience like the role playing can be really helpful too.
Speaker 1It is one of the one of the reasons is one of the reasons that it's so intense, that we get so afraid of somebody not liking us. Is it because it's maybe At some point in the past we felt like we were Abandoned or stopped receiving love, because someone made us feel like we were the problem, because we had feelings that didn't align with the situation, and so we're afraid to go through that again.
Speaker 2It could be. That's, that's one reason. The other reason is your boundaries may not have been respected. You know, going back to something that I mentioned earlier, that People pleasing may have gotten you through a traumatic time and people pleasing your trauma. You don't let we have to. We can't forget that.
Speaker 2Our trauma responses Just ended up themselves are really natural.
Speaker 2Good, right, they help us in times of trouble. Well, sometimes that trouble is with our actual own parents and there's no one there to save us. There's no one else to rescue us, because it's actually their response to their, their responsibility to take care of you. Well, people pleasing may have made sure that you know you kept yourself safe from one year, one or both your parents coming home drunk at night, or it may have kept you safe in a scenario when you know you, if you were going to be abused for not fulfilling your parents needs or wishes, you know may have kept you safe in those scenarios as well. Yeah, but really, ultimately, if we could rewind, and the way that it should have happened is that you should have actually been able to give your parents feedback and your parents should have been able to be the ones to who respected your boundaries first, and that's how you learn how to set and how and how to set boundaries, and also how people should in a healthy way respond to your boundaries.
Speaker 1But because we didn't have that modeled as a child people who struggle with people please and typically struggle with it into adult- and it's one thing that my therapist says that I really like is what was adaptive in childhood as maladaptive in adulthood and, yeah, exactly what we're talking about now. What's interesting, too, is from the perspective of a former people pleaser. And still some of the effects work and do it every day. The it's natural for other people to have boundaries. It's like it's totally normal that they said no, you know, it's totally normal that they Like, they can do that, but I can't kind of thing. You know essentially that sometimes, sometimes I feel that way about people that like.
Speaker 1It's almost like other people have the God card. They get to decide what's right or wrong. I don't have the end being in touch with myself and what I'm, what I feel about this, nor do I validate the way that I feel as a valid perspective. It's like, how do you feel about? This? Is the way I feel, right, you know? I guess that I'm supposed to feel, you know. And then sometimes other times, it has other time, other times when I've been in relationships that were heavy on the people-pleasing side for me, when they set the boundaries. It enrages me like how dare you like? Are you kidding me after everything that I've done for you and Tried to be there for you. You're gonna push me out.
Speaker 2That's where I'm glad that you you bring that up. That's where it starts to cross over into Manipulation, right after everything I've done for you. Yeah, you know you have to ask yourself like, were you doing it Because they needed, you know, extra money or were, or whatever it was that you gave? Or Like, was there an anticipation where you like kind of banking things up, yeah, with the anticipation that when you wanted something from them, that you could receive it back?
Speaker 1and it's almost like. It's almost like to like you're the inability when someone asks for something and you, like you're saying banking it up. You know, like, because in my, my, my experience, it hasn't even been intentionally banking it up, it's just been feeling that the obligation is to do for other people, even if you don't want to do it. That's just how you do it, that's just how you do life. And so then when someone else expresses that they, they can say no, the thing you can't do. It's like I Did things that I hated, did not want to do, didn't have the time and money for for your ass, and now you won't do that for me, and that just screams like unhealthy relationship.
Speaker 2Yeah, and it also makes you. It also makes you a lot more susceptible to someone who's narcissistic. Going back to the original, you know original theme was is that someone who's narcissistic? They see that and they see that your inability to say no and your end of your, your ability to Overgive and to strive for, you know For valid, for additional validation. So what do they do? In the beginning they give you a lot of validation to get their needs fulfilled, your. It's the reason why the beginning of a relationship with a narcissist feels so great that you're getting the validation, they're getting everything that they need. But over time they start to Take away that validation to try to control you and it actually gets the people pleases to work harder and that, and so you start working Harder. Well, who's the who's, the only benefactor of that? Is the narcissist in that situation?
Speaker 1Yeah, something that Heidi pre says about that fear of abandonment and some of the you know ways to work through.
Speaker 1That is to practice feeling what you feel and expressing that and Detaching from the response that someone else has and that, to me, has been really, really helpful, and that kind of comes back to that Stop.
Speaker 1I've really started to stop Rewriting text messages and just and becoming much more able to engage in conflict spontaneously without having to go back to my notebook or whiteboard and think through this whole strategy. Back to kind of the manipulation thing, like because it is, it's like that's really cool, matt, you're like going how can I respond so that I can get a certain response out of them? And that's the. That's like, dude, I'm telling you, I'm telling you my guy, like I've spent probably two years and this just fall apart personality from my, for me, like just some of these breakthroughs that I had sort of the unravel, a lot about my own personality that we had constructed over the years, because I realized that like there's there was so much inauthenticity to the way that I approach conversation, request, negotiation, and it's because I have been in a relationship with the association and it's because I have been scared shitless to just own my needs and express those other people and be willing to accept it when they say no.
Speaker 2Yeah, one of the what I call it the final boss when it comes to people pleasing, though I would say this was for me. I can't speak for everybody, but you have to get okay, you have to become okay with people not liking you. That's the biggest, the biggest hurdle, but you have to understand that. You know, kind of going back to what it's something you said that other people it's okay for other people set boundaries. Well, you don't like everybody else, so it's just natural that everyone is not gonna like you and just because they keep you. This is the heart, this is what I was.
Navigating Authentic Relationships and Self-Worth
Speaker 2Something that like kind of hit me when I was struggling people pleasing Is that there was a lot of people that kept me around, that kept me as a friend, only because I was people pleasing, only because I was overly giving, and they benefited from that. Yeah, but once I set a proper boundary, I realized that it really wasn't an actual true friendship or relationship. I was literally just being used, but it was really actually my own fault. And so when you start to accept and you start to allow people, and so People, who people are listening, who struggle with people, please, I want you to think about this If you, if you start to set boundaries and people start to not like you, they really they probably never did to begin with yeah, they never did. The whole relationship was inauthentic, it was a fantasy, and so really, you actually need, you actually need and want to know if someone doesn't like you, so then you know how to allocate your time, your Energy and everything properly, so then you can actually spend time with people who do appreciate you more authentically.
Speaker 2Yeah, so then, you have a more genuine relationship and you can. You know, but people, people, people who struggle with people pleasing, think that everyone has to like them all the time. No, and and not only is it no, but just because they have you, just like I said before just because they have you around doesn't mean that they really actually do and it's like they.
Speaker 1There's no way for someone to like you when the version of you that they're interacting with is a false version of yourself. Right, you know? Something that's really helped me, just a little line of thought, has been they're they're rejecting what you're offering, not you. Yep, that's been really helpful. I own a business, I do a lot of business I talked to and that's one of the areas that I've learned that I have.
Speaker 1It's been one of the last areas for me to kind of identify and scrape the people pleasing out. You know, is Offering someone something from a job to a certain business, operate a deal or operation and being afraid that they're going to reject it and their rejection is a reflection of my Worth wildness as a business person. That's the way I felt, instead of instead of kind of getting some of that stickiness off and attaching my identity, who I am as a person and my worth, to detaching that from the thing that I was trying to offer or the suggestion that I'm making, and that's it feels honestly, man, it feels it feels vulnerable to talk about that, but it also and it also feels really like elementary, like those are foundational understandings of how to Interact with the people and relationships and how to interpret what people respond to you with and that kind of thing. Yep, absolutely, yeah, the people pleasing stuff, man, that's uh, it's really cool.
Speaker 1I love, I love the. I think it's really awesome that the reality is, if you're dealing with Really really complex Dark mistreatment, that why are you still there? And the first is the greatest first question to ask. You know, and a lot, of, I think a lot of people would try to say like well, that's victim blaming.
Speaker 2It's really not Victim blaming. You know, it's victim is it's.
Speaker 1Victim.
Speaker 2People say like because you'll hear things like you know where, in situations where the victim will actually be blamed for abuse and mistreatment and things like that, and what? What we're talking about is very, very different. Let's victim empowering, like after you leave a relationship, things like that, like you have to put those pieces back together, so then you don't, you don't enter into those relationships back at, you know again, and the only way to do that is to empower yourself. So then you, you're able to see it?
Speaker 1Yeah, do you? Do you feel like power follows blame? What do you mean? That's first time I've heard that phrase like Whatever you blame for the situation or that you're in is what you give the power to that person is. I can see that, yeah, I can see that. Yeah, I don't know, you know, I don't know if I believe that in every single situation, but I can see that.
Speaker 2I can see that in some, some scenarios, yeah, yeah, and then it's.
Speaker 1I think it's a helpful distinction to to use the words fault and verse point Responsibility, like it's not your fault that happened. But the difficult situation right now is your responsibility to deal with and it's your your cards, man, it's you know. What you do with this is going to 100% impact the quality of your life yeah, 100%. A couple other questions.
Speaker 1I have is. I heard someone say one time that Social media is training us to be higher on the narcissistic side of things. Social media is training us to be higher on the narcissistic spectrum. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2I don't know if it's training us to be higher on the narcissistic spectrum.
Speaker 2I think that it's probably exposing people who are Already high on the narcissistic spectrum. I think that people you know people who are quote-unquote being trained to do it because I do A lot of people most people know me for emotional intelligence and toxic relationship stuff but I also have a social media marketing agency for law firm owners and that. But I also help people who are building, building personal brands and things like that and I've seen it on both ends. Where someone actually is lanes pretty heavily in that narcissism. But a lot of people who really aren't feel very uncomfortable putting themselves out there on social media excuse me, on social media. And I would also say be careful about everything that you see on social media. There's some people who might even come across as narcissistic on social media but then, like you, meet them behind closed doors and they are nothing like that. They're doing it because it's a character that they play for, whatever skits that they do or whatever it is that they post the brand they're building the business.
Speaker 1They're making the product they sell.
Speaker 2And going back to something we talked about earlier, a healthy level of narcissism. I have a speaking engagement this evening. I promise you I'm going to appear somewhat narcissistic when I go on stage. Like we said before, we need a healthy level of it. We wouldn't be able to get through work. We wouldn't. I mean, all of the disorders that we have are like the healthy. There's a healthy level of anxiety. If we didn't have it, your bills probably wouldn't get paid, your homework probably wouldn't have gotten done growing up. So is it training people to become more narcissistic? I don't necessarily agree with that, because I think that, even though social media is a large part of our life these days, I think there has to be a much larger experience, interpersonal experience, for there to be some sort of training, especially early on in childhood.
Speaker 1The last thing that I wanted to ask you before we hopped out of here do you know the Greek mythology story of narcissists?
Speaker 2Do you?
Speaker 1know, have you heard the ending where the story goes? He leans over to get a drink of water or something out of a river and the water, so still he can see his own reflection, and narcissists is transfixed by how beautiful he is, and so he just sits there and stares and then eventually, I think just forever goes by and then he falls in. Right, he falls in and drowns or dies, and then a little narcissists flower grows where he was and then the ending is like then there was a goddess in the forest that comes out and asks the body of water. It says like you know, this is where narcissists stared at himself forever. You got the chance to see him. Tell us, was he beautiful? And then the river responds by saying I don't know. Only when I looked at him in his eyes I saw my reflection.
Speaker 2That part of the story. I don't remember hearing that part of the story, but that's very interesting.
Speaker 1Yeah, it is very interesting. I've wondered what that means, but I guess today is not the day to discover it. Well, man, look, I really appreciate you hopping on here and chatting me a little bit about this. I love, I love, I love the theme of taking the focus off a narcissist and putting it into the people and helping, helping other people and helping myself and yourself to recover from some of the maladaptive practices that we learn in childhood learning boundaries, learning to be less people pleasey and be direct with our communication, and it's really good stuff.
Speaker 2Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you.