You Don't Own Me – Understanding Domestic Abuse

Championing Survivors with Lucy Wade from You Don't Own Me

Host(s):

• Adam Carter
• Louise Baxter MBE (LouBax)

Guest(s):

• Lucy Wade – Founder of You Don't Own Me (YDOM), a platform for raising awareness of domestic abuse and offering resources and support to survivors.

Episode Summary:

In this powerful episode of the Consumer Friend Podcast, Adam and Louise are joined by Lucy Wade, the founder of You Don't Own Me (YDOM), a platform dedicated to raising awareness around domestic abuse, particularly focusing on post-separation abuse and coercive control. Lucy shares her vast experience working with survivors of abuse, both through her personal advocacy and professional efforts. She talks about the complexities of domestic abuse and how it extends beyond physical violence to emotional, psychological, and financial control.

Lucy’s mission with YDOM is to create a safe, inclusive space where survivors can seek support, understand their experiences, and find the strength to move forward. She also hosts a podcast, "Dip in and Out with Lucy," where she discusses these issues in depth with professionals and survivors alike, creating a much-needed conversation around the topic of domestic abuse.

Key Takeaways:

1. Domestic Abuse Statistics: In England and Wales, one in four women will experience domestic abuse in their lifetime, and police receive a domestic abuse-related call every 30 seconds, yet underreporting remains a huge issue.
2. Post-Separation Abuse: Domestic abuse doesn’t always end when a relationship does. Post-separation abuse, especially coercive control, is a significant and often overlooked aspect of abusive relationships.
3. Empowering Survivors: Lucy’s work emphasizes the importance of empowering survivors, helping them rebuild their confidence and regain control of their lives.
4. Supporting Survivors: Friends and family play a critical role in offering non-judgmental support to those who may be experiencing abuse.
5. Raising Awareness: Platforms like YDOM and Lucy’s podcast aim to break down the barriers of shame and blame, encouraging open conversations about domestic abuse in society.

Resources & Links:

• You Don't Own Me (YDOM) Website – Lucy’s platform for supporting domestic abuse survivors.
• Refuge – Domestic violence help for women and children.
• Women's Aid – National charity working to end domestic abuse against women and children.
• National Domestic Abuse Helpline – For confidential support and advice (Freephone: 0808 2000 247).
• Clare’s Law – The Domestic Violence Disclosure Scheme for checking if a partner has a history of abuse.

Please like, subscribe and rate to help increase the reach in the UK. You can also follow us on socials:

• Facebook
• Website: Consumer Friend
• Twitter: @ConsumerFriendUK
• Instagram: @ConsumerFriendOfficial
• TikTok

Transcript

[00:00:07] Adam: Welcome to the Consumer Friend podcast. In today's pod, we're going to be looking at a rather sobering world of domestic abuse. We have a fantastic guest on to talk us through her experiences with domestic abuse survivors and is now extending that help and support to others. With me as ever is Louise Baxter, MBE, Empress of the Scams universe.

[00:00:26] Adam: Hi, Lou. How are you? 

[00:00:28] Lou: Hot, Adam. 

[00:00:30] Adam: Okay. 

[00:00:32] Lou: Not in a good way. 

[00:00:33] Adam: Oh, in the, okay. I thought it was quite boasting then. I'm so 

[00:00:36] Lou: hot. I'm so hot. I am like, sweating so much, because I've got like, it's like, we normally do, got all the doors shut, so there's no noise. And the dog's sitting on my feet, and I'm actually melting.

[00:00:48] Lou: I'll have to do melting, 

[00:00:49] Adam: so yeah, we're recording this, we're recording this in the summer, so I don't think it's going to be released until, uh, maybe September, October, if everyone's gonna be going, well, where is she? But no, we're recording this in the summer. [00:01:00] She's obviously in some hot climes. Nope, she's still in Eastbourne.

[00:01:04] Lou: Still in Eastbourne, melting in Eastbourne. 

[00:01:07] Adam: With us today as well is Lucy Wade, a passionate champion for domestic abuse survivors and the founder of You Don't Own Me, which is ydom. co. uk. It's a platform for raising awareness and providing support for those impacted by domestic violence. Lucy has focused her efforts on post separation abuse and coercive control, offering consultancy, training, and resources to help others understand and navigate the complexities of abusive relationships.

[00:01:32] Adam: She also hosts a podcast that explores these issues in depth, providing a voice for those who need it most. Hi, Lucy. How are you? I'm very, very good. Thank you very much for having me this morning. Both of you. Thank you so much for coming on. It's a pleasure to have you on. 

[00:01:47] Lucy: Oh, well, thank you. And I tell you what, after everything you just said, I thought, Oh, that she sounds interesting.

[00:01:50] Lucy: Oh, that's me. 

[00:01:52] Lou: I love that. I love. That's brilliant. I love it when the intros as well are really good as I'm like, yeah, [00:02:00] yeah, I need that. Can I have that? 

[00:02:02] Adam: Yeah, of course. Yeah, I can send it to you. It's a bio. You can put 

[00:02:05] Lucy: it in your bio for you. That's it. That's it. I just need that. Yeah. Perfect. Thank you. 

[00:02:10] Adam: Uh, so we're going to start off, I mean, Louise has literally just sent me a few stats around domestic abuse.

[00:02:15] Adam: So I'm going to start off with a few of these stats. Uh, they're quite, quite alarming, quite concerning, quite worrying. The police receive a domestic abuse related call every 30 seconds. Yet, it is estimated that less than 24 percent of domestic abuse crime is reported to the police. So it's quite an underreported crime.

[00:02:31] Adam: One in four women in England and Wales will experience domestic abuse in her lifetime. On average, one woman is killed by an abusive partner or ex every five days in England and Wales. Wow, that's, that's, that's horrendous. So, so Lucy, can you just tell me a bit about, about you and how you started You Don't Own Me?

[00:02:51] Lucy: Yeah, so I used to work for my local domestic abuse charity, originally I'd started volunteering, and then I went for the role of victim [00:03:00] voice facilitator, and it was a role that was created out of The Domestic Abuse Act being updated, and the idea was that to go out into society, into the community, and find out where there were gaps in services, where there were positives, where there were negatives, and Really what I was finding is there was more negatives than there were positives, sadly, because obviously there's lots of different agencies involved with each case, from police, social services, you know, family court, if you're in accommodation, you know, you've got all the support around that.

[00:03:29] Lucy: And the thing I noticed was it's fantastic that we have all these really good people. resources we have, all these courses that people can do. So things like, it used to be called the freedom program, but this thing called it back to me now, uh, true colors, all these kinds of things that went on in Trafford where I live.

[00:03:43] Lucy: And that's for six weeks and that's fantastic, but it doesn't go away after six weeks. You know, this is something that will stay with, if somebody has experienced abuse, it is something that will stay with them more likely for the rest of their lives. It doesn't have to define their life, but it's something that they learn to move forward with [00:04:00] too.

[00:04:00] Lucy: to manage on a daily basis, you'll have good days, you'll have bad days. So when people are within that kind of course environment, the group facilitation or one to one, they feel really empowered and then that disappears and that's down to obviously funding, et cetera. And obviously people can't be in the courses forever.

[00:04:15] Lucy: You would then find people re referred back into services, maybe a year later. Feeling that they needed that support even more, maybe it wasn't the right time for them. So I just noticed that we needed something where you could go at any point in time, you know, a one stop shop where all that information was there, but done in a way.

[00:04:32] Lucy: that there wasn't any blame or shame, you know, there isn't anything like that. It's very much around understanding that it can happen to anybody. And very much regarding that underreporting, it's because very, very often people don't believe that they are going to be understood or believe themselves if they go to the police, if they go, you know, talk to different services.

[00:04:51] Lucy: So it's, well, what's the point? And then the flip side is many, many times that I've seen people will report, they will be supported and [00:05:00] then something will happen further down the line. It may be threats from the ex partner, whatever it is. And they'll say, I don't want to go any further. You know, this is getting too scary.

[00:05:07] Lucy: Now it's getting too serious. You know, there's restraining orders involved. Is this that, you know, there's children involved. So it's a really, really complex and difficult subject to explain to people sometimes. So you don't own me is around trying to break down that barrier and say, it's actually okay to talk about it.

[00:05:23] Lou: It's also like, so Lucy as well, I mean, Lucy and I have worked together on a lot of the work that we've done in the scams team around coercive control and blame and shame. There's some similarities in the way that victims of fraud and scams are treated and map them across the domestic abuse situation where you say some people aren't always aware are they that they're in an abusive relationship either.

[00:05:44] Lou: So like, so some of the work that you're doing and some of the stuff with your podcast and it's not, and I think there's a bit of like. It's quite a heavy subject and Adam was like, this is going to be a heavy podcast. It won't be when you meet Lucy. The way that you, the way you talk about stuff and the way [00:06:00] that your, your, your platform, your website is blog posts and your, the podcast, it's like you, you bring it to life.

[00:06:07] Lou: So it doesn't feel like it's such a dark subject. So, and again, it's sort of highlighting for people that might not realize they're in an abusive relationship, but there are some things that are tinkering away that they're thinking that doesn't feel right. I'm not sure about that. I'm not. The podcast is for, isn't just for people that are victims, it's for anybody.

[00:06:25] Lou: And actually, what it does is it, it will help people to go, Do you know what, that's not quite right. That tinkering that I've got there, in my mind, where I'm thinking, That doesn't feel right, that feels like a red flag. You bring that to light so that people can actually, see and then are empowered to do something positive about it.

[00:06:43] Lou: Well, you've just summed it up as well, hopefully. That's how I do. And yeah, that's how I see your, because you don't make it. It's not. And the way you talk about it, you talk about it very matter of factly, and it's not all about stats and it's not all about that. It's very matter of factly, but it's done in a, in a way where it's not.

[00:06:59] Lou: It doesn't make people [00:07:00] feel uncomfortable because it isn't, and I said this to Adam before we started doing it. It's an uncomfortable topic, isn't it, for you? Like, oh yeah, absolutely. 

[00:07:07] Adam: It really is. It really is. 

[00:07:09] Lou: That's half the problem with the blame and the shame, isn't it? Because you talk, it makes people uncomfortable because, and again, I'm not speaking for you, but as a, as a very decent man, Adam, that I'm not going to pay you any more compliments today.

[00:07:21] Lou: It makes you uncomfortable. It makes you uncomfortable that men can do this. 

[00:07:25] Adam: I really struggle to understand. How and why it happens and I know your, your podcast, you've got a podcast called dipping with Lucy. Why, why, why is it called dipping with Lucy? 

[00:07:37] Lucy: So, um, I called it dipping it out with Lucy for exactly all the reasons Louise was just talking about.

[00:07:42] Lucy: It's to take away that fear and that shame and blame culture that sadly is really prevalent across and not just in the UK. You know, I do episodes with people from Canada, from Australia, you know, from America, and it's the same the world over, I think, is what I'm discovering, and that blame and shame. And so when I [00:08:00] set up the podcast, I just thought, you know what, I just had an idea.

[00:08:03] Lucy: And I thought, just see if anybody wants to come on. And then more and more people, professionals have come on and talked about their, their work or their own personal experience if they want to. What I love about it is it's from so many walks of life. You know, most people think, well, there'd only be so many people talking about it, but it's how you can relate it to so many other areas.

[00:08:20] Lucy: of life that really stands out to me. And the reason I called it dip in and out was again, I'm always trying to look from the perspective of the victim or survivor. So for me, it is a very deep subject and it is a very difficult subject to listen to. So I wanted it to be that you could dip in and out, you know, if it gets too much and you think, That relates far too much to my, you know, my mom, my dad, my brother, my sister, myself, whatever, you can just then go back to it whenever you want.

[00:08:45] Lucy: And the idea of the dip was kind of that discussion inclusion progression. So that hopefully over time, you know, 10 years ago, you wouldn't have podcasts talking about domestic abuse. No one would want to know, but now people are starting to realize, actually, it doesn't just affect certain demographics.

[00:08:59] Lucy: Anybody can be a [00:09:00] victim or survivor. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges to get. across to people is, you know, when people say, well, it wouldn't happen to me. And again, that links in with the fraud and scams. It wouldn't happen to me. And it's trying to say, actually, it could happen to you and it can happen to anyone.

[00:09:13] Lucy: We're not immune. You don't have some special super gene. So 

[00:09:17] Lou: it's, it's more likely to happen to women than it is to men. That's not to say it doesn't happen to men, but it's more likely statistically to happen to women. And it's one in four women. in England and Wales will experience domestic abuse in their lifetime, which is just, and it comes in lots of different forms as well, doesn't it?

[00:09:37] Lou: So we're not just talking about old school getting, getting smacked or getting hit. It's, it's the emotional abuse side of things. It's a coercive, it's a bit, that's insidious, that, that undermines everything, doesn't it? And I know there's a lot of, at the moment, there's a lot of social noise and a lot of like, Buzzwords like gaslighting and love bombing and all of this sort of stuff, and narcissistic behavior, and everybody's labeling everybody a narcissist [00:10:00] if they're a little bit selfish or self focusing.

[00:10:01] Lou: I mean, to be honest, everybody's got some sort of narcissistic tendencies. And there's a difference as well between abusers and abusive behavior. Because again, everybody can do abusive behavior at some point. Everybody would have at some point as well. But there's a difference between an abusive behavior and an abuser as well, isn't there?

[00:10:21] Lou: So it's, it's trying to explain it to people again so that people feel able to have conversation, uncomfortable conversations. I did a bit of reading on the, um, on the refuge website before we came on this morning as well, and they've got some really useful resources as well for like in the workplace.

[00:10:35] Lou: Like there's, um, Sharon's policy where it's a policy around how you're better supporting people in the, how you can support people in the workplace because actually it, if you are a victim or survivor of abuse. It has a knock on effect 

[00:10:49] Lucy: everywhere. Yeah, it has that knock on effect across the board of your life.

[00:10:53] Lucy: You know, it doesn't just affect the relationship. It will affect your family, your friends. You know, these are all the kind of things I talk about. So I [00:11:00] developed two online sessions talking about, one is specifically around domestic abuse and one's around post separation abuse. And again, it's using that kind of visual, hopefully creative, drawing people in to say, this isn't just like a few slides, talk about it, blah, blah, blah.

[00:11:12] Lucy: It's very visual, it's very kind of in your face, and oh, okay, right. Wonderful. So if it's, you know, in terms of post separation abuse, it's a marathon, not a sprint. So the images that I have around that, and it's trying to get it in people's minds that it's not something that's going to be over and done within a few weeks, a few months.

[00:11:28] Lucy: It is something that will be there and will last a long time because it does impact every, every area of life. And like you're saying before about the stats, the one in four, you know, I always, when I come back to it and a few people said to me, you don't have any stats on your website. And I think it's because having worked in the charity sector and having worked within a domestic abuse charity, I've seen so often how it's, it's not a true reflection of what's going on in society.

[00:11:51] Lucy: And I think if we truly knew how many people were experiencing abuse, we'd be even more shocked. You know, we'd be even more, and again, like Lou just said, We've [00:12:00] got to get past the idea. And the one thing I can't stand is when I see posters and it's all people doing this and cowering. It isn't just about the physical.

[00:12:08] Lucy: It's so, so, so much more. And, you know, I can quote chapter and verse of running groups myself when I was with the charity. And so often you would find Women in the group in particular, if I was running a female group, it would be around, well, is it abused? My partner didn't hit me. And then you then have to start talking about, okay, well think of your financial situation.

[00:12:27] Lucy: Oh, well they control everything. Okay. Well, let's think about, you know, are you allowed to see your family and friends yet? And you start breaking it all down. And it's almost like the tick in every box for the financial, the emotional, the psychological, you know, the, the sexual, everything it's impact so many more areas.

[00:12:41] Lucy: And when you see that kind of light bulb moment with them thinking, Oh, okay. So just because they weren't physically abusive, that isn't what domestic abuse is all about. It's, it's, you know, and I use the word domestic abuse rather than domestic violence, because to me, that's more of the umbrella around domestic violence, it's within domestic abuse, but it's obviously it's up to everybody what they want to use, [00:13:00] but it's, it's a lot more complicated 

[00:13:01] Lou: than it's also, we, some of the terminology terminology easy for me to say today around it.

[00:13:07] Lou: So we talked about violence against women. We're talking about men's violence. Let's call it what it is. This is, this is men. Being violent, whether that's emotionally, physically, whatever, towards women. And we, again, that doesn't help with the blame and the shame, because we, we use, we use that terminology, which puts all of the heat on the victim, again.

[00:13:26] Lou: Yeah. Which we do in scams and fraud as well. Why did you fall for that? Why were you so stupid? Why did you stay? That sort of stuff doesn't happen, and also a lot of it is projection again, so back to, and I'm not just trying to give you loads of compliments, Lucy, because I know that we work together on a lot of this stuff, but the way you talk about it as well, it does make it go, like, it's, it's, it's like, it can happen to anybody, because what people do, especially in a domestic abuse situation, if you are a victim of domestic abuse, it's difficult for people, and I don't mean Adam in this situation, but people to understand that, and they, like, You They need it to be your [00:14:00] fault, because if it's not your fault, then it could happen to them.

[00:14:02] Lou: It like, it's like, it like shines a light back, doesn't it? It's a reflection, because actually, if, okay, if the lady that sits next to me at work, who is quite well off, quite well to do, really nice, really clever. Really attractive, can be a victim of domestic abuse, that means I can, which is uncomfortable for people, so it's easier for me to blame attractive Katie.

[00:14:24] Lou: Arms length, keep it, yeah, yeah. And just, oh why, but, you're, what, why has that happened to you? Why didn't you leave? That sort of thing doesn't happen. And, and make it smaller. If 

[00:14:32] Lucy: people were really honest with themselves, they would admit that in their heads, more often than not, you know, that, that, um, intrusive thought kind of process of, well, I wouldn't let it happen to me, I won't say that out loud to my friend, but I wouldn't let it happen to me.

[00:14:44] Lucy: And then they have that, you know, there is that unconscious bias, there is all those things where actually, if we just sat back and said, okay, look back over your own relationships, look back at situations you've been in, and potentially there is somebody that was abusive towards you, or, You know, in your family, you can have, people forget [00:15:00] that, you know, you can have abusive parents, you can have abusive children, that's massively on the rise now, child to parent abuse is being talked about a lot more, which wouldn't have been talked about years ago, I think, is it, I don't know, I don't know which soap opera it is, but they've picked up on it, and they're running a storyline around child to parent abuse, and again, you know, imagine as a parent trying to establish what is that child's doing in terms of, are they just pushing boundaries or are they really abusive?

[00:15:25] Lucy: Because the difficulty with all of it is, and what I always come back to in a lot of the blogs I will write is the person who has been abused genuinely believes that the perpetrator loves them. Absolutely believes it. Children believe that the perpetrator parent loves them and they, and they in turn love the perpetrator parent because that's what people want at the end of the day, in essence, we all want to believe.

[00:15:45] Lucy: That there's good in people, you know, and sadly with perpetrators, it causes, yeah, we have 

[00:15:52] Adam: trust, we have trust. 

[00:15:54] Lucy: And I think that's one of the first things Lou ever said when we first spoke was that she'd noticed like with the website, I very much talk about the [00:16:00] human aspect because I'd written a blog called victim survivor, what comes next?

[00:16:03] Lucy: Because so many people I worked with would say, don't, don't call me a victim. Don't call me a survivor. And that's fine. You know, maybe that makes them feel like they've been pigeonholed. So I would, you know, I sat down and thought about it and I thought, well, actually what they've been through all of this.

[00:16:15] Lucy: This process from the minute they were born was human, you know, and we are all human and nobody, nobody can say that they've, you know, had a perfect life or everything's always. I mean, well, if you have, then you're very lucky, but you're very much in a minority, but we are all human and we do have emotions and we do want to be loved and we do want to be cared for and what a perpetrator is very good at is setting that scene of I am your savior.

[00:16:37] Lucy: I am the one that's going to protect you. You don't need anybody else. And that's slowly. And that's the thing is, it isn't just, you know, It's something that happens in an instant and that's it. They're abusive. It builds very, very slowly, very insidious, insidiously over time. 

[00:16:49] Lou: Isolating as well. It's isolating and it becomes a situation where you rely on that person.

[00:16:55] Lou: So then you don't talk to other people. So there's no one else. You don't get an objective viewpoint of [00:17:00] someone going, Oh, That doesn't sound quite right. 

[00:17:03] Lucy: And if a friend or family does have an objective viewpoint and tells you, well, they'll be removed very quickly. And this is where we get the idea around.

[00:17:10] Lucy: So when you're talking about buzzwords as well, somebody had asked me a while ago about triangulation and the idea of triangulation being about the perpetrator and the victim, and then say a family or friend. in the mix as well. And what the perpetrator will do is use a family or friend to turn them against either the victim or use them to say, Oh no, he does really love you.

[00:17:30] Lucy: Or she does really love you. Or, you know, you've got children together and they'll manipulate the family so they can become part of the triangle as well. And it's just, it's a really, really sad, obviously situation to be in, but sadly perpetrators don't know how to love. They know how to control. But one thing is very, very obvious.

[00:17:48] Lucy: They definitely don't know how to love. 

[00:17:50] Lou: But also, you'll also, uh, the criminals, the perpetrators, criminals, whatever, the abusers, whatever we want to call them, they don't always see what they're doing is [00:18:00] wrong. They don't know that they're an abuser. They don't see themselves as an abuser. So it's, it's, and that again, from a victim perspective, when the window demists and actually the victims or survivors go, Oh my God, I'm in an abusive relationship.

[00:18:16] Lou: They then, if you confront your abuser, The way that, that reaction to that is, they never go, because what, the reason for the confrontation generally is because you want to go, you're an abuser, and they go, oh my god, I'm so sorry, I am, I'll change. But the abusers don't do that which then makes it even worse from a closure perspective as well and from a processing because you're still never really sure, like you're still in that like that where your whole mindset is being undermined.

[00:18:43] Lou: What do you mean I'm an abuser? What do you mean? Yeah, they will turn it around and they'll play the victim. Yeah, 

[00:18:49] Lucy: absolutely. 

[00:18:50] Lou: And then, yeah, then you have to, from a victim perspective, you have to then Work out what is what, what is reality, what is not from a decent perspective. Extricate yourself from that [00:19:00] relationship.

[00:19:00] Lou: So you've, you've been abused, you've lost your relationship. The person that you love, you're starting to realise doesn't really love you. And actually, doesn't matter what you say or do, they're not going to go, Oh God, I'm so sorry. Or they might, or they might, that's the other thing, they might go, and then you're like, sucked back into the vortex again.

[00:19:19] Lucy: And there's your trauma bonding, there, you're always trying to get back to that moment when you were happy, you know, when you thought you were happy, when it was all lovely, and they will suck you back in, or they will turn around and say, but if you hadn't, you know, so many times I've heard this in groups, you 

[00:19:31] Lou: know, if 

[00:19:31] Lucy: you hadn't have done this, you see, you push me to that, I didn't actually mean to call you every day, you know, and again, a lot, I remember one particular woman talking about how she'd had both the physical and emotional abuse and for her she said the emotional is so much harder to process and move forward from because what do you do when someone's calling you thick, stupid, idiot, fat, whatever.

[00:19:52] Lucy: And I always come back, I think one of the blogs I wrote, I talked about the film Pretty Woman, you know, and I think it's that moment where Richard Gere says to Julie Roberts, you know, you could be so much more. She [00:20:00] says, yeah, but the bad stuff's easy to believe. And that's what it comes down to for victims and survivors.

[00:20:04] Lucy: Their self worth, their self esteem is absolutely rock bottom. They've been, they've been completely depleted of any confidence they had. And that's another thing that, that people don't appreciate or society doesn't realize is. People who are victims and survivors, they haven't just come from this little shell to start with.

[00:20:18] Lucy: Very often they're very confident people, you know, um, very bubbly, very happy, very, you know, and perpetrators know how to, to wear you down. They know how to take that. 

[00:20:29] Lou: That's part of the attraction, isn't it? From an abusive perspective, they want that, that, that, they want your light. So people that are bright light, they want that.

[00:20:36] Lou: They want to be part of that, but they want to make you smaller. And a lot of it as well is around, like you say, with the self esteem. With abusers, their, their self esteem is Lower. So they want to bring you down 

[00:20:46] Adam: in the interest of time. I get the feeling that we can talk about this for the next three hours, but we've got about 15 minutes left and I, and I now realize that we've now got two experts on the, on the, on the consumer podcast today, [00:21:00] not just, not just Lucy, which is, which is nice.

[00:21:03] Adam: Thank you. This is 

[00:21:05] Lou: why we work together so well. I could talk to you all day loose to be fair. This is it. We do. And we do. 

[00:21:13] Adam: If there, if there's some alarm bells ringing with people out there and they're kind of thinking, okay, this, this, this sounds like something that I'm going through, how, and, and, and like you say, these people, some of these people are these victims or these would be survivors.

[00:21:27] Adam: I've hit rock bottom. How, how do they go about starting that? I'm gonna say journey to recovery. I hate the word journey. It's all sounds very x factory, doesn't it? But how do they start that process of building themselves up in a way that they can get rid of their 

[00:21:47] Lucy: I would say that I think for me in an ideal world, it starts with us as society.

[00:21:53] Lucy: So rather than, again, put, we put it back on the, you know, the victim survivor, what could they do? It should be more about what we're all [00:22:00] doing to make it easier for people to speak out. And I think that's why there is such a struggle for people because as you know, they, they don't feel safe enough. They don't feel comfortable enough.

[00:22:08] Lucy: You know, we've just said that earlier about all the other issues with speaking out. But I, I think if somebody was listening, thinking, you know, this is kind of my gut instinct is telling me that there is something wrong. The one thing I will always say to people is if you pick up the phone, if you send an email to domestic abuse charity, you know, either in your local area or one of the national kind of helpline, something like that, you are only going to be met.

[00:22:31] Lucy: Kindness and understanding. You're not gonna be met with, oh, well, not sure I believe you, or, you know, they're there to help. That's the whole point. You know, they, that is their vocation, you know, to, to work in this kind of area. Most people say to me, why the hell do you wanna talk about this all day? But I think when it's in you and it's your passion and you want to make a change, and again, I can't, I'm a bit funny about the word passion as well, but it's, that's what it's, it's, it's something to make that difference.

[00:22:53] Lucy: And I think if you don't feel comfortable enough to reach out to an external kind of source, then. [00:23:00] If there is somebody within your, if you, I mean, again, obviously with the isolation, it's very difficult sometimes with family and friends. But if there is somebody for you to speak to, it might be a work colleague.

[00:23:07] Lucy: It might be a boss. And this is where the workplace comes in that they need better understanding around domestic abuse. Then there is no shame in, in speaking out and really just, you know, look for things like you don't owe me or whatever to give you that validation. 

[00:23:22] Adam: What if a member of the family or a friend kind of suspect something or, or believes quite strongly that they're.

[00:23:28] Adam: Sister, brother, whoever it may be, is in an abusive relationship. How can, like, friends and family help them? 

[00:23:37] Lucy: Yeah. I did an episode on this, actually, with a psychotherapist called Sari Taylor. And we talked about the issue for friends and family and the challenges that they face. And she's actually been in the situation herself.

[00:23:49] Lucy: And she said, looking back now, what she wishes she'd done was listen more. And it's so hard, you know, it's almost like being a counsellor, that active listening, you know, but, but listening to somebody, and [00:24:00] it may not be that they're saying it out loud, but just listen for the things that they're telling you, you know, they feel, oh, well, I feel like this, or I feel, it could be something that they're giving you as a sign that they're, you know, they're almost crying out, but don't want to ask for help, and very often victims and survivors are very proud about it and don't want to speak out.

[00:24:17] Lucy: So if you are a friend or family member, you know, the best thing you can do is, is not judge, don't. You know, don't use that kind of, well, you married them or yeah, yeah. You know, you put yourself in that situation 

[00:24:27] Lou: going too hard. Like that's abuse. Like, don't do that. Don't do that sort of stuff either.

[00:24:31] Lou: Cause people go like, what? Like, and again, then they'll retreat. They'll remove away from you. Cause then they don't want to be, cause then if they don't, They stay in that relationship. There's a shame about them talking to, to you about it that going on, isn't there? Like they can't, because again, the, the, the judgment and some of the shame stuff is like, we've talked about this before.

[00:24:50] Lou: Like you can't do that either. You can't be like, exasperated that people are moving at 

[00:24:53] Lucy: your pace. Yeah. And, and it is, it must be so frustrating for family and friends, but if you can [00:25:00] just listen and be patient, the more patient you are, the more understanding you are, the more likely that that person will open up to you eventually, maybe not be when you want them to open up, but timing is everything for somebody when they feel that that's their moment.

[00:25:12] Lucy: And it may not be at the moment that the friend or family wants, but if you're there and just keeping that kind of constant in the background, letting them know you're there as support, you know, you're not trying to force everything and, and change their lives because you're Just because you think you wouldn't be in that situation, you know, if you do care about somebody, then just be that quiet kind of constant in the background, making sure that when they are ready to talk and you can yourself, you know, if you are worried, and I would always say this when I work for the charities, family and friends can ring.

[00:25:39] Lucy: you know, domestic abuse, they can ask questions, you know, they can find out more themselves. That's where Claire's Law comes into it, around if you are concerned about somebody, so if somebody has had a previous record, whatever, it will all be there if something has happened, and that was set up, and obviously, again, it's something with the charity, we would always suggest, you know, To somebody, if that, you know, if you're, if you're thinking about [00:26:00] entering a new relationship, there's absolutely no harm in going and finding out what family and friends can also do.

[00:26:04] Lucy: It's not just the person that's entering the relationship. Friends and family can say, I'm not sure about that person, right? I'm going to go and find out a bit more and they can, and if, even if the victim potential victim wants to know more, but doesn't want to do it themselves, they can ask the friends or family to find out information.

[00:26:20] Adam: How would someone go about doing that? 

[00:26:23] Lucy: So basically it's, I mean Clare's Law, you know, there is a website, you can go and do a bit of research and have a look on there, see if it's something that you want to pursue. But as I say, if you're not sure about pursuing it yourself, you can ask somebody you trust, a friend or family member to find out more information.

[00:26:38] Lucy: And something else I've just thought about while I was on that did an episode with a chap called Nick Gazzard who runs the HoliGuard app and things like that are really useful as well to have on your phone. So if you shake, it's an app that you have it, so if you shake the phone you think you are in potential trouble, you know, in the middle of a situation with your partner, then it alerts the police and, you know, it's, yeah, it's an interesting app to have, definitely, yeah.[00:27:00] 

[00:27:00] Lou: It's, it's, but what you're doing as well, like, it's permission, isn't it? Like, the way you were taking it back about, it starts with us, it does, because actually having these conversations, you give people permission. To talk about things and like what you're saying about listening. Actually, what, what that, that, that real actually just listen to what people say without any judgment allows people to come to their own conclusions without you having to tell them because they start to say things out loud.

[00:27:22] Lou: And once people have what it's you hear yourself, don't you? And then you're like, Wow, I've just said that out loud and then it becomes more 

[00:27:29] Lucy: real. Because for somebody, it is like, you know, I use the analogy of like, it's coming out of a fog. You know, you've been living in this fog for so long in this bubble.

[00:27:37] Lucy: And then all of a sudden, if you, you know, if you manage, and I will always say, if you manage to leave the situation, some people choose to stay in the situation. And again, that's not for us to judge. You don't know why they could be cared for by the person. They could be the perpetrator's carer. There's so many reasons why people don't, you know, it could be financial.

[00:27:52] Lucy: And I think if somebody manages to leave the situation. Then it's for them, they're on that process then of working [00:28:00] out, well, what the hell do I do now? This is what I thought my life was. And now I'm being told at whatever age you are, I've got to start again, if you like. And more than likely, the perpetrator will have made all the decisions.

[00:28:12] Lucy: They'll have made all the decisions in the relationship. So now it's a case of, Oh my God, you know, I've got to find my way. And that's where friends and family really come in. You know, that's where services are really important because I said something to the day in a wellbeing forum about, you know, mental health.

[00:28:27] Lucy: And domestic abuse. And somebody said, I never considered the two kind of together. And I said, how could psychological abuse and emotional abuse not affect your mental health? Of course, it's going to have an impact. And that's again, nothing to be ashamed of. Of course it is. If somebody has, has basically been, been playing with your head for maybe decades, you know, especially if you're an older person as well, how is that not going to have an effect on your mental health?

[00:28:49] Lou: That blows my mind that people didn't do that. Like you said that to me before and I was like, what do you mean they didn't realize? So even like back to the stats, women who experienced domestic abuse are twice as likely to [00:29:00] experience depression. And 40 percent of homeless women state that domestic abuse was a contributory factor to that homelessness.

[00:29:07] Lou: Because again, financially, you might be completely reliant on that person. So it isn't just a case of, yeah, just leave. Where are you going? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:29:16] Lucy: Absolutely. And, you know, that you think then you start thinking of women who may be potentially come up to the age of menopause, perimenopause, you know, that in itself is hell on earth.

[00:29:26] Lucy: So dealing with that, and I only know because I'm going through perimenopause myself at the moment. Me too. Me too. You know, 

[00:29:31] Lou: sweating. Me too. Yeah. 

[00:29:33] Adam: Yeah. 

[00:29:35] Lucy: Yeah. 

[00:29:35] Lou: Adam's living it vicariously. We can think of glasses haven't completely steamed up. Also loose. If we can think of any other topics that might make Adam uncomfortable.

[00:29:45] Lou: I'll be really, I'll be really up for that. Oh, perfect. Perfect. Yeah. Thanks. Noted. Noted. 

[00:29:50] Adam: Um, I agree. We're going to start to bring it to an end, but are there any kind of. Major red flags that someone could look out for, [00:30:00] either within their own relationship or in someone else's relationship, if they're looking to help someone, kind of like big ones, kind of alert, alert kind of stuff.

[00:30:11] Lucy: I would, I would come back to again, like, you know, one of the blogs I'd written was don't tell me, show me. One thing a perpetrator is very good at doing is promising the world, is promising the earth and then not delivering or turning it around and making it, you know, the victim's fault. So, so actions are very much.

[00:30:27] Lucy: You know, say for example, if you've always been used to going out with your friends, and this can happen, you know, we're talking teenage relationships as well. We're not just talking people who were married. We're talking, you know, that's why we talk about healthy relationships for teenagers because they can be in abusive relationships just because you're 18 doesn't mean you can't be in an abusive relationship.

[00:30:44] Lucy: But if you start to notice things like, you know, you're not allowed to go out with your friends as much, or they suggest, well, I thought it'd be really nice if we went out for dinner. Now, if you turn around and said, well, actually, I really want to see my friends and they keep pushing it and don't want you to.

[00:30:56] Lucy: Go out with your friends and those are the kind of things it's that very much is all a [00:31:00] perpetrator wants is power and control. So if you're saying, well, you know, I'd love to go to the family wedding or whatever else is going on. Oh no, we can't do that or whatever, you know, these excuses and these to keep you.

[00:31:10] Lucy: The problem is when people talk about red flags, nobody sees it when you're in it. And that's the difficulty because, because you want to believe, and it's coming back to that human element, you want to believe that that person, instead of possessing you, is trying to protect you. And it's trying to separate those two out and say, actually, they're treating me like a possession, like an object, rather than saying, I'm, you know, I want to protect you, I want to love you, I want to care for you.

[00:31:34] Lucy: But even somebody who wants to protect you and love you and care for you will still want you to have a career. Or friendships or sports or hobbies or all those kinds of things. So to 

[00:31:42] Lou: be happy, it's like the thing I always use it. You turn red flags into daisies. Don't you? You see it pops up and you turn it into a daisy because you're like, Oh, look how caring they are, like that's different because that's what, that's how clever.

[00:31:58] Lou: the perpetrators are to [00:32:00] twist it all to make you feel like very much so 

[00:32:02] Lucy: yeah i remember somebody i worked with once and they used the word conning and i've picked it up ever since and i thought that's such a good word for a perpetrator they're very cunning so if you you go one way they'll work out a way To get what they want, and it doesn't matter how long it takes them.

[00:32:16] Lucy: And that's why very much with coercive control is a pattern of behavior. It's not just one little thing that they've done. This is a pattern of behavior over time, and it's all about exerting power and control over you. And that is something that many people don't see. And it's not their fault. You know, it's not their fault in the slightest.

[00:32:31] Lucy: It is part of being human and wanting that connection with somebody else. And that perpetrator is very good at making out that that connection is real. Whereas actually, you know, you're not living in reality, sadly. 

[00:32:42] Lou: And sometimes as well, the perpetrators might have been a victim of abuse, like parental abuse, and they're just doing what they know.

[00:32:48] Lou: So it's like learning from failure as well. 

[00:32:52] Lucy: I've started looking into some work around generational trauma, and I've got a girl who's doing some work experience for me over the summer, and she's fascinated by the stuff [00:33:00] I'm coming up with. She's going, oh, I love the idea of that. And again, it is that if somebody, and it's not to make excuses, if somebody has grown up in an abusive household, you know, and they see that as their normal.

[00:33:09] Lucy: That's no different than a victim being with a perpetrator and saying, but this is my norm. You know, and again, that escalation of risk, when the police get involved and something has happened and the police are trying to explain to a victim or survivor, do you understand the high risk you're in? Because what they will do is go through as a, as a charity, with domestic abuse charity, with risk assessment factors.

[00:33:26] Lucy: Somebody who's in a high risk situation will not appreciate that they're in a high risk situation because for them, that's their normal. Well, it's always been like this. She's always behaved like that. He's always behaved like that. And that's their norm. 

[00:33:37] Lou: And, and similar to like a scam victim as well, we often see that once people have been responded to a scam, they become a, they can be, they're more likely to be a repeat victim.

[00:33:46] Lou: It's similar with domestic abuse because if that's what, if your self worth is low and been eroded, then actually you, you're, you're, you, and you think that's normal. Your next relationship potentially could be abusive as well. So, it's, and we have to change the rhetoric [00:34:00] around that because I've heard it before from people going, well, they just, they're constantly just getting in, they're just bouncing to want the next abusive relationship.

[00:34:06] Lou: I'm like, well, it's not their fault. It's because that's what they've been taught, told that they deserve. And it's that cycle of abuse. Yeah, that's what I think normal is. 

[00:34:15] Lucy: So, it's really difficult. It's, it's very, very common for somebody to go from one relationship to another and it be abusive, because again, it comes back to as I said before about that protection and possession.

[00:34:24] Lucy: They believe that that person cares, because again we all want to believe that, we all want that feeling. So, it is, it is very common for people to go from one abusive relationship to another, and sadly, usually the relationship that they go on to, Will it will increase? There will be further further issues because what was in the previous relationship was normal.

[00:34:41] Lucy: Now this, you know, the next perpetrator is thinking, well, they're willing to accept that. What else are they willing to accept? You know? And yeah, but it isn't anybody's fault. 

[00:34:49] Adam: Um, it's a, it's a fascinating subject. Sadly, we have run out of time. I get the feeling that we could. Go on for quite a while here.

[00:34:58] Adam: Um, [00:35:00] or at least you two, I would just be

[00:35:05] Adam: Lucy. It's great. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. So if people are either experiencing this or see the signs of it, then it's perfect. Really, really worth getting in touch with either one of these charities or, or even, even the police that is that correct? Could it be reported to the police?

[00:35:22] Adam: Absolutely. 

[00:35:23] Lucy: Yeah, there's, there's no harm. There's no harm in it. And the other thing I would say is what I've tried to do with YDOM is, and I'm just in the process of, of updating it through my work experience lady. And um, It's the resources page is, is going to be not just the UK. It's going to be from, from all over the world.

[00:35:38] Lucy: So if anybody does think I need to contact, but I can't contact them because they're in the UK, just have a look at the resources page. Cause there is an absolute abundance of support and help on there, including national trade and standards scams team. 

[00:35:50] Adam: And like you say, it will, it will be met with. You know, with sympathy, with affection, with kindness, you won't, you won't be bombarded with almost secondary abuse.

[00:35:59] Adam: Why [00:36:00] have you fallen for that? What whatcha you doing? What you thinking? Why you get out? You won't be, you won't, you won't get that. You'll get the kindness and you'll get the proper advice. Lucy, absolutely. Fantastic. Thank you very much. We will put a link to Y Dom on I Dom UK on the, uh, show notes. Louise, thank you very much.

[00:36:20] Lou: It's alright. I could talk, like, I could talk to Lucy all day. 

[00:36:23] Adam: I am aware. Um, Lucy, thank you so much for coming on to the Consumer Friend Podcast. 

[00:36:30] Lucy: Oh, both so much for having me. 

[00:36:31] Adam: Thank you. Bye bye. 

[00:36:32] Lou: This is Consumer Friend.