Consumer Friend

Understanding Human-Centric Communication

• Consumer Friend • Season 4 • Episode 4

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0:00 | 37:32

Modern Communication with Nick Looby

Host(s):

  • Adam Carter
  • Louise Baxter MBE (LouBax)

Guest(s):

  • Nick Looby – Modern communication specialist, keynote speaker, TEDx presenter, and author of Modern Zombies.

Episode Summary:

In this episode, Adam and Louise are joined by Nick Looby, an expert in human-centric communication. With over a decade of experience, Nick specialises in helping individuals and organisations navigate the rapidly changing communication landscape, balancing technology with meaningful human interactions.

The conversation touches on how technology has enhanced our lives but often at the cost of genuine human connection. Nick shares insights on the impact of over-reliance on technology, social media, and digital communication tools, and how it’s crucial to balance efficiency with empathy. The trio discusses practical ways to engage in more human-centered communication, the importance of face-to-face interaction, and how we can reclaim our natural communication skills in both personal and professional settings.

Key Takeaways:

  1. The Overreliance on Technology: While technology makes communication more convenient, it often strips away the empathy and rapport we naturally build through face-to-face interactions.
  2. Human-Centric Communication: It’s essential to bring back the human element in conversations—whether at work, at home, or socially—to improve relationships and communication effectiveness.
  3. The Role of Empathy: Technology should enhance human interactions, not replace them. Empathy is crucial in building strong, meaningful relationships.
  4. Face-to-Face Interactions: Genuine conversations in person or over the phone still hold immense value compared to scripted or digital communication like emails or texts.
  5. Modern Zombies: Nick's book Modern Zombies challenges readers to rethink how technology is changing communication and what it means for human relationships.

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[00:00:00] Adam: This is Consumer Friend. Hello and welcome to the Consumer Friend podcast with me, Adam Carter. This is a great place for a conversation on such a wide range of consumer issues, human behaviour, and how to enjoy modern life to the max. Because that's what it's all about. Isn't that right, Lou? 

[00:00:25] Louise: Yes, Adam, that's exactly right. Very tight. Let's take two [00:00:30] because I'm very tired today.

[00:00:30] Louise: I wasn't paying attention the first time. Um, I like the new intro. I like the new intro. I'm good. 

[00:00:37] Yeah, what have you been up to? A bit 

[00:00:39] Louise: tired. Camping, Adam. 

[00:00:41] How was camping? 

[00:00:43] Louise: Camping was great. 

[00:00:44] It was bloody awful, wasn't it? 

[00:00:45] Louise: It wasn't. You say this. I did, when I was, I got home yesterday, I did go to the kids, we're never doing that ever again.

[00:00:53] Louise: But then today, I'm like, oh that was nice, being outside, and, so I'll [00:01:00] forget again by next summer and go camping again and then go, I'm never going camping again. 

[00:01:03] Adam: So I was also camping, we were camping for a friend's 40th birthday party and It was lovely that we were there for the party, and I very much enjoyed the partying bit, that was good fun, however, I was told that we were glamping, which is some form of glamorous camping, and that we had a pre made tent, which we did, it was a bell tent, and a bed Already in the tent.

[00:01:29] Adam: Now, when we got [00:01:30] there, it was a bit of foam on a pallet. I had zero sleep that first night. It was horrible, and, uh, I woke up the next morning and took myself away. I can't understand why people pack up their houses, stick it all in a car, and people with these These huge cars and these tent boxes on top of their cars and they take them We were 10 kilometers away from our house To a big field unload their entire car Stay a night in a field and then [00:02:00] load up their car again and then go home.

[00:02:01] Adam: What is the point? I don't get it 

[00:02:05] Louise: Well, for starters, I didn't glamp, I camped, because I'm hardcore compared to you. No, that doesn't, that, are you gonna even listen? You just don't, it's nice, it's being outside. It was, we were outside, we had a fire, we made schmores, you could drink prosecco in the morning, it was fun.

[00:02:24] Louise: We made new friends, we played rounders. 

[00:02:27] Adam: We did play rounders and we played wow and [00:02:30] those, those bits were fun. I enjoyed all of those bits. I could have just cycled down and done those bits then cycled home and I did actually go home. 

[00:02:37] Louise: Well we wish you had because you ruined our camping vibe to be honest.

[00:02:40] Louise: Anyway 

[00:02:40] Adam: right enough, enough. We are not here to talk about camping experience. We are here to talk to our special guest. Nick Luby is a modern communication specialist and keynote speaker who helps individuals and organizations navigate the confusing communication landscape. With over a decade of experience, Nick is [00:03:00] renowned for his engaging presentations that blend insightful humor with realistic communication methods.

[00:03:05] Adam: He has worked with top companies like HSBC and the BBC and is also a TEDx speaker and author of a book called Modern Zombies, a book challenging conventional communication methods in the digital age. Hello, Nick. Welcome to the Consumer Friend Podcast. Thank you very much 

[00:03:22] Nick: indeed for having me and, uh, it's fabulous, simply fabulous to be here with you two lovely people and I'm [00:03:30] delighted that, um, the bits from your camping adventure that you most enjoyed were the human interactions.

[00:03:36] Nick: That makes my heart sing. 

[00:03:40] Adam: But, and again, that's, that's what it's all about. Isn't that what life is all about? Those human interactions? It used to be. 

[00:03:46] Louise: I'm just going to clarify. I'm just going to clarify. I didn't like interacting with other people. Just, just 

[00:03:51] Nick: saying. Yeah, sometimes it's brilliant. Sometimes, hmm, we know this from life, right?

[00:03:58] Nick: But sometimes it's [00:04:00] amazing. 

[00:04:01] Adam: So Nick, we, we've worked with you in the scams team. You've done quite a few training sessions for us, I think. And I've, and I've certainly attended a few more of your presentations at conferences and the way you speak about how humans should be interacting and, and, and how modern communication has changed over the last 10, 15, 20 years.

[00:04:24] Adam: It's really inspiring to listen to, to you injecting that. Element of [00:04:30] humor and engaging audiences. What made you start doing this? I suppose. Actually, let's start with What do you do, and what made you start doing it? 

[00:04:39] Nick: Yeah, good, good question. Thank you, Adam, for those very kind words as well. It's, it's, it's weird.

[00:04:44] Nick: So I, I call myself a human centric communications specialist. And every time I say it, it sounds weird. You know, you won't see that on a business card. A human centric communicator, you don't see business cards anymore. It's [00:05:00] essentially, it's, it's not rocket science. It's, it's. Reminding people that we have human centric superpowers, we're brilliant, absolutely brilliant and have evolved to be so at communicating with one another face to face, interacting, reading each other's body language, being beautifully human and empathetic.

[00:05:24] Nick: We are fabulous at it. And, and then somewhere along the lines, we [00:05:30] fell in love with our technology and we thought, Ooh, this is good. This will allow me to do things cheaper, easier, and more conveniently. And what we did, because we fell in love with the cheap, easy, convenient stuff, we, what we sidelined all of that empathy, rapport, and the resonance that we generate as lovely humans.

[00:05:50] Nick: And that's okay to a point. But it misses all of the kind of nuance, all of the real human aspects that are [00:06:00] hugely valuable. That you'll experience on an entertaining camping trip, you'll experience when your team gets together face to face, when you sit down and have a conversation with your family at dinnertime and are brave enough to leave the tech on the sofa.

[00:06:15] Nick: All of these times will remind us, actually, yeah, we're really good. at this. So, um, I used to train people how to use their technology, which was okay, but the most interesting part for me was the human bit. [00:06:30] How do the humans turn up to work with their technology to try and make sure their message gets through?

[00:06:37] Nick: And the more I dealt with the humans, you know, us, uh, the more interested that I became. So the tech's fine, but we're so much, so much more complex, so much better if we choose to be. 

[00:06:49] Adam: So would you say that you're more. More of a psychologist or, or, or you've gone down a psychology route rather than a, a, a tech route, would you say [00:07:00] you're trying to encourage people to talk to each other and you're giving them the reasons why they need to talk to each other?

[00:07:07] Nick: That, I guess, psychology, I can't avoid the psychology of, of human communication. It's a big part of what motivates us when we're talking imparting messages, absorbing messages. There is a lot of psychology around that, but my, my approach is, it's pretty straightforward. It's, it's, it's not something that [00:07:30] in theory audiences should turn around and go, wow, this is new.

[00:07:34] Nick: It's, it's something that we are very, very capable of. But for some reason, quite a few reasons, we just, we just forgot how good we were. I guess it's like jumping on a bike, right? If you've not ridden a bike for 10 years, and you know, this is, I remember I learned how to ride a bike, but I don't know. 10 years.

[00:07:56] Nick: You jump on a bike and you wobble down the road, but then you're in, [00:08:00] you're into it, right? Oh, what, what a feeling. And it just reminds you, saying, I remember, I used to be really good on this bike. And off I go, off road, you know, and having a great time, with a bit of luck. 

[00:08:11] Louise: It's that, it's that anxiety as well though, isn't it?

[00:08:13] Louise: People are now, people, because we do live our life behind screens and via texting and, uh, voice notes and all that sort of stuff, it's not an issue. There's less interaction, which then people then sometimes have become a bit frightened or anxious around that face [00:08:30] to face communication and not being able to, I don't think the lockdown situations helped, and I know that was many moons ago now, but we ended up isolating ourselves because we had to, so that actually being in a room with people again was a bit like, This is stressful.

[00:08:44] Nick: Yeah, absolutely. And the tech, tech's brilliant. I've spoken on many stages and I talk about human centric communication and be wary of what the technology in theory is taking away. At no point, at no point in [00:09:00] thousands of people listening to what I've got to say does anyone stand up and say, yes, I'm going to throw my iPhone in the ocean.

[00:09:07] Nick: And never use it again. Including me, that doesn't happen. Ironically, I was on a podcast some time ago, and the host asks the same question. If you were in a burning building, what one thing would you rescue? And I struggled to come up with an answer, but my best answer was my phone. Ironically, because [00:09:30] it's got everything on it.

[00:09:31] Nick: Wife? Wife! Yeah, there was, there was the, the, the, I should, I should correct myself here. It did say, right, nothing, all animals, all humans are safe, right? What inanimate object? Shit, I should have said, I should have clarified. I'm still going 

[00:09:48] Adam: with phone. 

[00:09:49] Nick: Yeah, I'm only joking. I'm only joking. But yeah, the anxiety does creep in because we get used to, you know.

[00:09:57] Nick: methods of communicating. You know, we, [00:10:00] we, we get comfortable with what we used to. So before we had our magical phones, we were very comfortable picking up the old style phone and having a conversation or chatting to someone in a meeting face to face. But we do less and less and less of that now. So of course it becomes the more of the unknown and there's a generation of, let's say, people working within teams that have never.

[00:10:24] Nick: lived a life before their phones. And I, I get, I get people, um, they, they, [00:10:30] they, their biggest complaint is, oh, the youngsters, they, they won't pick up the phone, right? And when someone, you could pick up the phone and get that done in five minutes, but you spent a week on your emails. And my response to that is, Oh, have you ever trained them?

[00:10:43] Nick: To use a phone. No. As though that's a dark art. This generation haven't ever really been embracing the phone call. So they need, they need some assistance. Otherwise, of course, massive anxiety. [00:11:00] 

[00:11:00] Adam: I still now, when people come in to, Into my, my inbox, my email inbox, whether it's with consumer friend or at the scams team, it's almost, and I'm being introduced to them.

[00:11:10] Adam: It's almost, shall we have a quick 15 minute chat over teams? So I can see your face, you can see my face and we can get, we can discuss in 15 minutes, what 30, 40 emails can get achieved. And we can, we can find out exactly what, what we can do for each other. Um, I suppose I've got a question around it. Was there a [00:11:30] tipping point for you when you were teaching people how to use this technology?

[00:11:34] Adam: Did you get to the point where you went? You know what this technology, although it's great, I can see some real pitfalls. I can see some real downsides to the fact that this technology is now out there. So did you get to that tipping point? And is that what inspired you to then go out and become a human centric?

[00:11:51] Adam: What was he? Communication 

[00:11:52] Nick: specialist. That's how weird it is. Um, there was a tipping point. It evolved. It was fairly [00:12:00] short space of time. I knew I wanted to write a book about communication and I had an opportunity to do a TEDx talk as well. And the direction of both things were steered by a very simple event on a Saturday evening at, um, uh, one of these hotels that's adults only, but in a good way, um, because it's old people who like to dance.

[00:12:25] Nick: So my wife and I, we love to dance. And we went away for a weekend, [00:12:30] lovely to escape, live music, dancing, beautiful. And Saturday night, Early evening, we're in, we're in the dance hall. I haven't yet got my dance shoes on. Okay. So there's not a lot of activity going on, but there is a couple dancing on the dance floor, quite rightly, like nobody's watching.

[00:12:49] Nick: Beautiful to behold. They're the big guy and he's dancing next to a much smaller partner. Okay. And they are going for it. Yes, [00:13:00] indeed, they're going for. Beautiful. Dancing away. And then the band finish one song, change tact, and start a slow song. Oh yes! Love is in the air. And they're dancing. Slow song. Nice smoochy dance.

[00:13:16] Nick: And over her shoulder, he's texting. Oh, no. Okay. Texting during a slow dance. I was nudging Louisa. I said, look, look, look at this. He's texting during [00:13:30] a slow dance. My first thought, I apologize for it was, I wonder if he's texting his wife. Couldn't stop myself. Couldn't stop myself. Cut that out of the podcast if you wish.

[00:13:42] Nick: However, my big question to Louisa was, He's texting during a slowdance. Should I be outraged, or is this the new normal? At the time, I was outraged. However, now I know this is the new normal. This is no longer frowned upon. [00:14:00] We can go out to dinner with friends and partners and spend half the night on our devices.

[00:14:05] Nick: No longer frowned upon. And that's the thing, that's the thing that tipped me. We are becoming more zombie than human. And it started right there. 

[00:14:15] Adam: It's, it's something that infuriates me so much. Just what, when you, when you're in, in a restaurant, a ca, a cafe, whatever it may be, and you see a family and every single person on that on, on the table is staring at a phone rather than talking to each other.

[00:14:28] Adam: I get so angry with it. Sorry, Louise. Yeah, [00:14:30] you go. 

[00:14:30] Louise: No, no, no. I was gonna say we have, we have the same here. So we have a in, in my house, we sit. When we eat together, the three of us, we sit at the breakfast bar. So we're not sitting around the table, but there are reasons for that. My house is full of neurodiverse people who can't watch other people eat.

[00:14:44] Louise: So the noises, it all ends up in a big row there. Why are you chewing so loud? Why can't I see what's in your mouth? So if we all sit next to each other, we can all have a conversation, but nobody has to look at each other. But yesterday I had this [00:15:00] whole conversation. I was like, put your phones down. I'm not.

[00:15:03] Louise: What are you doing? Were we eating pasta? Put your phones down in the library. Patsy went to me, and he's my 11 year old. Well speak then. Otherwise I'm just going to be sat here bored. I'm like, give me a minute. Trying to think of a conversation. But I make them, and I make them put their phones facing down as well so they can't be distracted by their phones.

[00:15:24] Louise: But it started with me responding to a text when I sat down and Floss went, but you were on your phone. I was like, [00:15:30] well I've put my phone down now. She went, but you were on your phone. And I was like You're very right, I was, and I didn't think about it until, then we moved all the phones away and we did have a nice chat, which was really, it was really nice, at dinner time, but I'm with you Adam, it's really difficult, kids are the worst for it.

[00:15:45] Adam: But also, we are all so addicted to our phones as well, so it's not just our children, we shouldn't be chastising our children for doing it because we are just as guilty. We're getting that dopamine hit from having the screen in front of us and getting the rewards. of a text [00:16:00] message or whatever it may be.

[00:16:01] Adam: It's really hard to convince people that it's not necessarily a good thing that they're on their phones all the time, that they're on their tech all the time because they don't want to hear it. So there'll be a lot of people not wanting to listen to this podcast because it might affect the way they react with their devices.

[00:16:16] Adam: So how do we get through to those people? 

[00:16:18] Nick: And it's a great, a great question, right? We're all, we're all the same. Okay. So it's, it's. Quite funny, right? If a lot of, a lot of evenings out, couple [00:16:30] go out, lovely date night, lovely, good conversation. Half the conversation is about the couple next, on the next table, because they've spent their 

[00:16:37] day on their 

[00:16:38] Nick: devices in a blooming evening.

[00:16:40] Nick: Christ, what's going on with their relationship? Um, but as soon as our partner goes for a wee, What do we do? Pull the phone straight out. What have I missed? You know, what's going on? Because we lost, we lost that ability just to stop and, and, and do nothing that the world needs us to be bored from time to time so we can innovate.

[00:16:59] Nick: So [00:17:00] my book and my talks kind of get me in a lot of trouble because people think I'm anti technology. I'm not, right? The whole gist of it is, I want tech to enhance and enable more human. So our youngsters who love their technology, brilliant if they want to have an informed conversation. The tech is part of that informed conversation because they can use it to, um, to clarify and to confirm [00:17:30] and to enable more information to be included in that conversation.

[00:17:35] Nick: Just like us sitting watching, I don't know, watching The Voice going, How old is Tom Jones? Straight on the phone. Eighty four! He's looking good, isn't he? You know, that. 

[00:17:44] Louise: Hi, did Tom Jones, I watched Tom Jones on the news this morning. I was like, how is Tom Jones? I actually Googled that 

[00:17:51] Adam: this morning. It's so true, isn't it?

[00:17:52] Adam: I, it's literally, I'm, I'm staring, watching TV and, uh, Nicole Kidman comes up. I don't know, Siri, how old is Nicole Kidman? And then [00:18:00] instantly I'm told that information. I'm not entirely sure that's a good thing. Good 

[00:18:03] thing. 

[00:18:03] Adam: Is it not making us more, I say stupid, I guess that's the wrong word, but we don't need to know our timetables anymore, we don't need to know who was king of England in 1437, because that information is now available to us 24 7.

[00:18:21] Louise: But I think that's different at schools. Because they do have to still do that within the school system. I just think as adults, we don't need our timetables anymore. 

[00:18:28] Nick: I think there's, [00:18:30] there's a real issue now for, or has been for some time, for education. Because the audience that we're trying to educate are massively connected.

[00:18:41] Nick: So if they want to know kings, queens of England, if they want to know times table, if they, you know, want to know what this sum plus this sum means, they have ready access to a device that will sort that out for them. But how on earth are we supposed to inspire and engage them if we're trying to teach them [00:19:00] things?

[00:19:00] Nick: That it's much quicker just to look it up on the phone, right? Two issues because everything is available. All knowledge in theory is available at a touch of a button. It means we value it less. Right, so we don't have to work hard to find it out. So massive lack of value in the world's knowledge, which is a shame.

[00:19:20] Nick: Um, but what do we then educate our children with to make them enjoy life much better? Because if we just say, [00:19:30] well, you've got to learn kings and queens of England and dates in history, then that, the new generation, they don't need to do that, right? So I, I think education, I did some work for a group of head teachers last year, and sadly, their response to me was, we're a laughingstock.

[00:19:49] Nick: The way education in, in this country has evolved, we are a laughingstock. We are no longer fit for purpose. It just takes a very, very brave, Approach to [00:20:00] what does new education look like? 

[00:20:01] Louise: It's, it's really, it's really, there's a, there's a, I have this, um, thoughts a lot with the kids around them and, and actually how six hours a day on your phone is the equivalent to 91 days a year on your phone.

[00:20:15] Louise: And I use my phone for everything, shopping, managing the school stuff. It's like my, it's like a, it's like an old school filofax, if you think about it like that as well, from that perspective. Um, so yeah, I'd save mine in a fire as well, because I'd be buggered without it, to be honest, I wouldn't know what I was doing.

[00:20:28] Louise: However. [00:20:30] Um, from a, from a children's perspective, I think, and I, I feel the pressure for, so, obviously got 14. We, we did not have that pressure when we were growing up to literally know where everybody is, who they're with, track everybody on their phones, see what they're doing via whatever people, Decide to present on Instagram or Snapchat, because you don't present the bad stuff, you only present the good stuff, so there's a whole increased amount of mental health, fear, FOMO, fear of [00:21:00] missing out, uh, all of that stuff for young people that we never had before, which is driving up the, obviously, the mental health crisis, so I think education has got to be about that emotional intelligence as well, and actually understanding All of that stuff from an educational perspective and I don't think there's enough of it.

[00:21:14] Nick: Now I don't think so, you know, if you, if you were going to put, let's say, what do we need to educate our kids? What should the syllabus look like? It would be remiss if you didn't include the tech that we carry around in our pockets as a major part of influencing [00:21:30] what people need to need to learn. And you're right, Lou, the level of anxiety and mental health issues has, um, has absolutely gone through the roof.

[00:21:43] Nick: And one of the reasons I think, and the tech geniuses who created our phones, they, they are absolutely aware of this stuff, right? If you were going to put together a Swiss Army knife into a device, right, everything you'd ever need, they would chuck it in the phone. There's a [00:22:00] reason why it has a torch and an alarm.

[00:22:02] Nick: There's a reason it's got all of those apps, so you never have to be without it. However, we grew up without this stuff. We went out to play, okay? So we got into scrapes, no doubt, right? We knew we had to be home for tea, right? So we had a good idea of where we were and how long it would take to get home, okay?

[00:22:22] Nick: We went out, we went out to play, we got ourselves into scrapes, but we got ourselves out of them, okay? And it built a [00:22:30] certain amount of resilience. in us, you know, we got ourselves into trouble and we got ourselves out of trouble and we're far more resilient because of it. And then we grew up and you think, oh, well, something's happened at work or something's happened in life.

[00:22:42] Nick: Well, I can kind of cope with that because I've got this inbuilt resilience that I built up as a kid. However, our younger generation don't, haven't gone out to play, haven't got themselves into scrapes, old style. They haven't built up the levels of resilience that [00:23:00] we have and then they're bombarded with new tech.

[00:23:04] Louise: That's, that's, but also because, I mean, I let my kid, my, so my son goes out and he doesn't take his phone. And he knows, he's like, what time am I back? I'm like five and he's never late. She, on the other hand, went out the other day, for the afternoon, her phone battery died, so she was half an hour late. So she got grounded for the evening.

[00:23:20] Louise: I was like, you're not going out to the sleepover you're supposed to go to because you can't be on time. She was like, well my phone died. I was like, ask someone the time. She was like, well I didn't know what the time was. I was like, not my [00:23:30] problem. You've also, there's 75 charging packs in this house as well, charge your phone.

[00:23:33] Louise: Before you go out. So she didn't, so she then wasn't allowed to go out in the evening, but that resilience piece is really important because like you say, if you, if you, I remember like my sister break, like someone would break an arm or something, you'd go and find a grownup, wouldn't you, to get it sorted out.

[00:23:47] Louise: But as parents as well, we don't let our children do that as much. We want to track them on their phones. We want to work out where they are. We want to see all of that. Whereas our parents didn't know where we were. Because 

[00:23:56] Adam: we are now worried so much about the fact that they might get abducted. They [00:24:00] might get run over by a car.

[00:24:01] Adam: Whereas actually in reality, The stats show that less and less children are getting abducted. Less and less children are getting run over by cars, but yet we're hearing those stories and that's what's worrying us. So we're giving them a phone. We're letting them sit on a sofa and stare at a screen because it's safer and they're, they're safer and they're protected.

[00:24:18] Adam: So we should maybe unprotect our children a bit more. Is that the 

[00:24:22] Nick: right phrase? I think we just need to be, um, a bit more. wise, as parents, a bit wiser [00:24:30] of the potential downsides of not going out to play or not relying on ourselves as much as, as I guess we did as, as kids. I'll often speak to parents and they'll say, no, I'm like, mate, it's not safe out there.

[00:24:46] Nick: I won't let my kids go out to play. I'll say, oh, where are they? Upstairs on the internet. What are they doing? I've got no idea. I think, and shoot me down by all means, I think there are much scarier places on the internet [00:25:00] for kids to play in than the local park. However, we understand the threats in the local park.

[00:25:08] Nick: We don't understand the threats as parents. Well enough, what can go wrong on the internet and I just don't think we were educated either enough about all this, this, this magical new technology. I 

[00:25:20] Adam: just think it's completely agree. So you can almost be radicalized on and there are stories of people being radicalized and heading off to Afghanistan to [00:25:30] fight for ISIS and stuff like that.

[00:25:31] Adam: Now, I know that's an extreme. The less extreme of that is, is those is that confirmation bias piece, that media literacy piece in that it's dividing people and it's sending in the algorithms are sending people down different paths so that they could be conflict in the future. And it's, it is. It is dark.

[00:25:52] Adam: I do apologize and I'll probably delete this bit, but it's something that really, really concerns me is that you have got these [00:26:00] algorithms on Facebook, on YouTube, that are sending people along a different path and they're eventually arriving at an extreme. So you don't have a central kind of opinion anymore.

[00:26:12] Adam: You've got right and you've got left and never the two shall meet. And I think that's what social media and that is what the internet is doing. I don't think that will happen if they're going on a roundabout in a park. 

[00:26:25] Louise: It's, it's, it's people trying to find their spot and where they belong as well. This is because people have lost their [00:26:30] identity with all of this stuff.

[00:26:31] Louise: Right, so just to lighten it slightly. 

[00:26:33] Adam: We need to move away from this. Yeah, 

[00:26:34] Louise: we're just going to lighten it slightly. My kids went to the park the other day on their own to play, uh, manhunt. And there was a man who was a flasher in the park. So what they did was, Leave the park and come home. That was it. And they were like, there was a flasher in the park, so we left the park and came home.

[00:26:52] Louise: I went, well done. Excellent. That's exactly what you should do. You did the right thing. Will I now go? You can't go to the park again. Of course not. [00:27:00] Of course not. They can go to the park because they managed it. Florence was like, we looked over in the bush and there was a man that was naked in the bush.

[00:27:10] Louise: It killed his park. Yeah. So they, they managed it. So we still have old school, 1980s flashes in parks for children. You can cut that out. Okay, I'm going to cut that bit out as well. Especially 

[00:27:21] Nick: the naming of the park as well. I'm flabbergasted that that still goes on. Well, you know, I'm not, I'm not a [00:27:30] naive person.

[00:27:31] Nick: I'm, I'm certainly, um, of an age where I don't fully understand how the world works. Of course I don't. And the technology moves at an incredible pace, far too quick for, um, for a middle aged bloke. Goodness gracious. So how on earth am I able to steer people in the right direction? You know, hence the message, nothing to do with [00:28:00] being anti technology, it's just pro human.

[00:28:03] Nick: Because we are brilliant, absolutely brilliant, the best times, no doubt, I guarantee every single listener to the podcast, the best times they've ever had are with other people, as opposed to playing an app on their phone, guaranteed, because we are beautiful, us humans, we are magical and so much fun. [00:28:30] to be around.

[00:28:31] Nick: Uh, and, and the apps, they're great, right? But they're not, surely not as good as us. 

[00:28:37] Adam: Surely not. Absolutely not. I completely agree. I think I, I came out of a presentation of yours, uh, at the CTSI conference. It might be, it's probably two, maybe last year. Uh, and I deleted all my social media, all my social media accounts got deleted and they remain deleted.

[00:28:51] Adam: I deleted all my games from my apps as well. They did not remain deleted, which is kind of unusual. Uh, but yeah, I've, I've been off social media since, [00:29:00] since a presentation with you. Now, you, it led you to write, write a book called Modern Zombies. Are we allowed to talk about the fact that you, you, you might be updating this or not?

[00:29:09] Nick: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, that was 2017. So the book served a purpose for me. Um, it got kind of my thoughts of what's going on in the world out on paper, but for some considerable time, I think, right, it's time to write another book, Nick. Blood, sweat and tears, um, not an easy process if you've ever tried, uh, to write a book.

[00:29:28] Nick: And I had the [00:29:30] epiphany recently, actually I don't realistically need to write another book, I just need to rewrite this one, because the world has changed massively since 2017, and there's no mention of AI in my old book, and there has to be a massive mention of how that will affect. the way that us humans interact with one another.

[00:29:53] Nick: Ask, imagine AI in education. Right. And we still want to tell our kids, well, it's important to know which [00:30:00] queen and which king, et cetera, et cetera, that education. We won't even recognize what it looks like in the next few years, the way that AI will develop a personalized kind of education opportunities with all of our youngsters.

[00:30:15] Adam: Yeah, there's, I think it's something in the news actually last week that came out around there is the pilot of education, AI educator in London happening for this year and students are going to be taught purely by AI. That's scary. [00:30:30] I kind of want to talk a little bit about Your TEDx talk that you did around communicating and the throwing of the tennis balls on the, on the tube.

[00:30:40] Adam: I don't want to ruin it, but yeah, can you just talk a little bit about that? And then also I kind of want to finish off on, on where you see this going and the future of communication and how you would navigate it as well. 

[00:30:54] Nick: God, that's some tough questions coming up. Sorry. Sorry. Hold tight listeners. Wow.[00:31:00] 

[00:31:00] Nick: And you've got, you've got three minutes. Three minutes. The whole idea was how to get through to an audience rather than just be heard. And, and this is still very relevant today because we think being heard is the thing, but getting through is actually the thing and the, the, the game of catch on London's tube was, was just my attempt to, can I break down all of the kind of, um, the, the, the barriers that we have in the [00:31:30] most, uh, difficult to communicate area.

[00:31:32] Nick: Um, but I've never come across, no one talks on the tube, right? So I thought, game of catch, on the tube, this will break down those barriers, get us all talking. Okay, have a look at the TEDx talk to see how that went. Also, I then played catch with the entire audience to prove a point about the difference between being heard and getting through.

[00:31:51] Nick: That's beautiful chaos. The one thing I didn't really appreciate was, uh, during that process, I threw out hundreds of squeegee stress [00:32:00] balls into the audience for them to amongst themselves. After that experiment, I then carried on with my very first TEDx talk, very important for me as a speaker, and didn't really appreciate that all I've done is armed an entire audience with squidgy stress balls.

[00:32:17] Nick: And, and of course they started throwing them at me. Yeah, I've moved on. I'm doing the rest of the talk and I'm being pelted with missiles. So that was, that was interesting. So, [00:32:30] really good question, and it's a really difficult one for us all, to be fair, of where is this going? Um, because if we're, if we're honest with ourselves, we hide behind our technology like everybody else does.

[00:32:44] Nick: Adults and particularly children. The kids are just better at navigating it. than we are. Okay, they'll drop stuff that doesn't work for them quicker than we will. So I think they are more, oddly enough, more [00:33:00] educated with, um, technology that is the future than, than we are. But we, we fall into the cheap, easy, convenient, and now with AI, the efficiency trap far too often.

[00:33:13] Nick: We know full well that a Teams call is not as valuable as a face to face or even a phone call, potentially dependent upon the point of discussion. However, the likelihood of us getting face to [00:33:30] face has disappeared more and more and more. Those team meetings are once a month, every two months, as opposed to they used to be far more regular, because we can jump on a team's call.

[00:33:41] Nick: So we think it's more efficient Probably yes. We don't really appreciate what we lose. So what we lose is the unscripted conversation because the team school it's an hour. It's very agenda based. We don't have the conversations outside of that that [00:34:00] used to innovate. That used to inspire us, that used to bond us, that used to reinforce our company culture.

[00:34:08] Nick: So we lose all of that good human stuff, but we get stuff done. The obsession and the focus going forward, if we let it, the technology will make us better at getting stuff done, and we won't stop long enough to ask the question, Is that the stuff that we should be doing? 

[00:34:26] Adam: Thank you, I completely agree, that's, that's, that's amazing, I [00:34:30] think I remember one of your presentations about being overwhelmed and underwhelmed all at the same time around how, uh, we are bombarded constantly with information, emails, text, WhatsApp, social media, it is, there's so much of it, but it's all crap, it's all rubbish, we don't know how to navigate our way through it to find out what's really important, and I think what you're saying around those, that, that face to face interaction and those Really, really valuable conversations are [00:35:00] so important to us living our lives and getting things and actually getting the right thing done.

[00:35:04] Adam: Nick, thank you so much. Louise, do you want to add anything? 

[00:35:10] Louise: All I would say is obviously from the training that we've had with you before, one of the things that I've taken away as well, not just from the podcast, but other stuff is, is the, um, when you're talking about the people listening or getting through is you did some work with us on presentation skills and always start with a really bold.

[00:35:27] Louise: statement to engage your audience and [00:35:30] I do and it's still uncomfortable to do it but I still do it every it is uncomfortable isn't it to start without introducing yourself without going hi I'm Louise and just a little bit about so just launch straight into it but it really does work it really get engages with your audience and get some thinking about things so if you can have a bold statement or a picture or something on the screen for people to start looking at to engage with your presentation and then, then you do your introductions after that.

[00:35:57] Louise: So you've captured your audience, which is that [00:36:00] getting through bit. Like I say, it still makes me really like, Oh, this is so uncomfortable. Uh, but it's really powerful. It's really powerful, that communication. So that's something I, that, that, um, and even with the, when you talk about getting through or just listening, you only need one person, don't you?

[00:36:16] Louise: You only need to get through to one person. You've made it. a little bit of a difference. 

[00:36:19] Nick: I think the work that you guys do with the consumer friend and all the scams work at such a difficult job, an overwhelming job. [00:36:30] Every time you get through to one individual, you make a massive, massive difference. So in our overwhelmed world, hooking the audience, given the reason to listen is, is hugely impactful.

[00:36:44] Nick: So I'm delighted, Lou, that it's, it's making a difference. It 

[00:36:47] Louise: is, really is. Thanks for coming on today. 

[00:36:50] Adam: Nick, so much for coming on. Uh, as ever, we will put links to your website, feet on the ground, on the show notes, and also a link to your book. I'm [00:37:00] assuming it's still available to buy? It is, indeed. Perfect, we'll stick links to the book.

[00:37:03] Adam: Nick, very much for coming on today. As ever, Consumer Friend is available at www. consumerfriend. org. uk. Please like, subscribe and share the podcast. Help us get our message out there. Uh, Nick, thank you very much. Absolute pleasure. Thank you. And Lou, thank you. 

[00:37:20] Louise: Thank you. 

[00:37:21] Adam: Bye bye. 

[00:37:22] This is Consumer [00:37:30] Friend.

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Adam Carter

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Louise Baxter

Host