Consumer Friend

Battling Rogue Traders: Licence to Build

• Consumer Friend • Season 4 • Episode 5

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0:00 | 37:45

Protecting Consumers from Rogue Builders

Host(s):

  • Adam Carter
  • Louise Baxter MBE (LouBax)

Guests:

  • Sara Griffiths – Consumer advocate and victim of rogue building practices
  • Sam Davison – Police officer, advocate for change, and victim of rogue building practices


Episode Summary:

In this episode of the Consumer Friend Podcast, Adam and Louise are joined by Sara Griffiths and Sam Davison, two advocates who share their personal experiences with rogue builders, highlighting the significant emotional and financial damage these criminals can cause. Sara and Sam discuss the importance of implementing stricter regulations and licensing in the building industry to prevent others from suffering similar ordeals. Together, they have launched a national campaign pushing for industry reform, emphasising the need for competency standards and accountability in domestic building.

Through heartfelt discussions, they reveal the personal toll of encountering unsafe construction, legal battles, and financial devastation, and how it has shaped their commitment to protecting others. The episode also covers practical advice for consumers on finding trustworthy builders and offers insights into the current campaign's journey through government processes.

Key Takeaways:

  1. Significant Financial and Emotional Impact: Rogue builders cost UK homeowners around £1.5 billion each year, leaving projects incomplete or dangerously executed.
  2. The Need for Industry Reform: Sara and Sam advocate for licensing builders, aiming to introduce accountability and competency standards similar to those in other professions.
  3. Challenges in the Legal System: Victims often struggle to seek justice due to limited resources in trading standards and the high costs of legal action.
  4. Support for Campaign for Licensing: Their campaign for stricter regulations has gained 10,999 signatures and is now attracting support from MPs and organizations like the Federation of Master Builders.
  5. Advice for Consumers: Research extensively, meet with past clients, verify company history, and use reliable recommendation sources to avoid rogue traders.

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[00:00:00] This is Consumer Friend.

[00:00:10] Adam: Hello and welcome to the Consumer Friend Podcast with me, Adam Carter and Louise Baxter. Hi, Lou. 

[00:00:16] Louise: Hi, Ads, how are you? 

[00:00:18] Adam: Great, thanks. We are striving for these podcasts to be a great place for conversation on such a wide range of consumer issues, human behaviour and how to enjoy modern life to the max. Today, we are looking at the [00:00:30] world of road builders and how we can avoid catastrophic experiences.

[00:00:33] Adam: These criminals steal people's money on the promises of building or gardening work, handyman services, roofs, or roofs, I still can't work out which one the right one is, driveways, only to leave their victims with either none of the work carried out, or sometimes even worse, some of the work carried out to an unsafe or poor standard, costing huge amounts of money to put right.

[00:00:55] Adam: The financial impact can be huge but it can also have devastating effects on victims [00:01:00] emotionally. So before we introduce our guests, it's only right for me to say hi Lou, how are you? You okay? 

[00:01:06] Louise: I'm, I'm hot. But apart from that, I'm fine. Do you know what? My landline keeps phoning. I don't know why I went Dorset country then.

[00:01:15] Louise: My landline keeps going. Do you know what it is? It's a scammer trying to sell me fake white goods insurance. This is the fifth call I've had today. After, you know, we did the this morning bit. I've had about 20 phone calls of [00:01:30] people trying to sell me fake white goods insurance. 

[00:01:33] Adam: So for those of you that don't know, Louise was on this morning with Dermot, 

[00:01:39] Alison 

[00:01:40] Adam: talking about the work that we do in the scams team around fake white goods, service plan, warranty extensions, that kind of thing.

[00:01:49] Adam: And ever since that's happened, she's starting to get bombarded by these phone calls, which is kind of a bit. Maybe that, maybe they've targeted you because of your TV experience. Yeah, they're after 

[00:01:59] Louise: [00:02:00] you. Well, I've had a few before, but I got in an argument with one of them this week, which I, again, I thought if you weren't in the know, they were like, we're definitely not criminals, why would you say that?

[00:02:09] Louise: And then they got very offended. So it wasn't a particularly pleasant phone call. Um, yeah, well, yeah. Apart from the fact I'm hot and irritated by my landline, my 

[00:02:21] Sam: landline. I'll be honest. I didn't think people still had landlines. Yeah, that's a good point. 

[00:02:28] Adam: Sam, you're not allowed to talk [00:02:30] yet. We haven't introduced you.

[00:02:31] Adam: Apologies. It's fine. I'm only joking. It's okay. No problem. I'll introduce you in a bit. So we're going to look, obviously I've got a few stats around rogue builders or cowboy builders as they're otherwise known. It's estimated that rogue builders cost UK homeowners around one and a half billion pounds annually.

[00:02:52] Adam: This includes money lost on incomplete or poorly executed projects and the cost of rectifying the damage caused. [00:03:00] According to the Federation of Master Builders, nearly one third of homeowners in the UK have been affected by rogue builders at some point. Data from Citizens Advice indicates that complaints about rogue builders often lead to legal action, but only a small percentage of effective homeowners succeed in recovering their losses through the courts.

[00:03:16] Adam: So it's a, it's a big problem and it's very hard to get your money back. So with us today are Sarah Griffiths and Sam Davison, advocates for change in the domestic building industry. Sarah from Greater Manchester and Sam [00:03:30] from Bedfordshire never imagined they would become national advocates for change in the building industry.

[00:03:35] Adam: In 2022, both became victims to road traders who left their homes in dangerous, uninhabitable conditions and their families in financial ruin. These devastating experiences united Sara and Sam in their determination to prevent others from suffering the same fate. They launched a petition that got nearly 11, 000 signatures, calling on the government to introduce stricter regulations and a licensing scheme for builders.

[00:03:57] Adam: The campaign quickly gained national media [00:04:00] attention, including features on BBC's Rip Off Britain, and has attracted support from several MPs and trade bodies, including the Federation of Master Builders. Hi Sam and Sara, how are you doing? Hi Adam. Hello Adam. Hi Lou. Hi Lou. Hi. Hi. Thank you so much for coming on to our podcast.

[00:04:17] Adam: I suppose it's probably a good idea to start with, with a little bit about you and your experience with the rogue builders that, uh, that cause so much, so much hassle and trouble to you. So, [00:04:30] so Sam, should we start with you? 

[00:04:32] Sam: Yeah, um, like I said, in 2022, my wife and I hired a builder that came recommended locally to do sort of a renovation and extension to our newly purchased at the time family home, we'd only been in the address a few months, sort of looking around 70 for a project that included a rear extension, porchway, etc.

[00:04:53] Sam: And part of that was some quite extensive structural remodeling of the downstairs. The issues began quite [00:05:00] quickly. We paid a large amount of money upfront for materials and a deposit, et cetera. And it began with sort of failure to attend site, you know, excuses for not being there, delays in materials being delivered and so on and so forth.

[00:05:12] Sam: Ultimately, we ended up with two steel beams incorrectly installed at the rear of our house, which caused a huge amount of structural damage. Our house was actually deemed structurally unsafe by an engineer. We're sort of 60, 65 grand out of pocket. We've obviously had to spend a large amount of money to [00:05:30] rectify the works that were done.

[00:05:32] Sam: On top of that, the cost of sort of going through the legal process, um, civil action. We've tried to pursue criminal action and things as well. And it's just been, it's just been devastating, a devastating experience. It was supposed to be a once in a lifetime opportunity to, Create our dream family home and it's turned into sort of a two nearly two and a half year nightmare.

[00:05:51] Adam: Yeah, it sounds horrendous and it, it, it's, it can almost put people off. It puts people off doing it, doesn't it? That, that fear and worry that they might get that wrong [00:06:00] person and the wrong builder to, to come and do it. And it could. Huge amounts of money, but have such an effect on on you as a person as well.

[00:06:08] Adam: I'm assuming that the financial loss, yes, it's horrible, but the amount of time the hassle that it takes to try and get everything put right and to try and pursue these people in the courts. It's just. Too much. 

[00:06:22] Louise: It's also your house, isn't it? It's your home. Somebody's invaded your home. Yeah, 

[00:06:25] Sam: it's Obviously, your home's supposed to be a sanctuary, [00:06:30] supposed to be a safe space, and we found ourselves in a position where not only was our house insecure, it was unsafe.

[00:06:38] Sam: We bought the house because we fell in love with it and we saw the opportunity that, you know, it had the potential to create what we'd always wanted in a family home. And the sort of emotional impact, it's been really difficult. Even now we're in a position a lot further down the line where, you know, we've, we've had a lot of the work rectified, et cetera, to sort of love your home again, is, [00:07:00] is a really difficult thing to do because there's still things that are outstanding.

[00:07:03] Sam: I've still got a 700 kilo steel beam on my patio that I can't get rid of because of the size and the weight of it, which was incorrect. And it's sort of a constant reminder at the minute of what we've been through. But like you mentioned, the emotional impact, the stress that it causes, you know, on top of.

[00:07:20] Sam: everyday life, which, you know, in 2024 is stressful enough, um, yeah, it's been, it's had an impact on, on our marriage, you know, both, both my [00:07:30] wife and I's physical well being, the lack of sleep, um, obviously all the other sort of health, health implications that come with sort of living in that. almost chronic stress for that period of time that you're going through it.

[00:07:42] Sam: I mean, the only, the only way I can describe it is devastating. Um, and hence the fact, obviously, you know, Sarah and I sort of became friends through our mutual experience and, you know, I'm a police officer, have been for over a decade. I thought, The [00:08:00] system was fit for purpose and what I found having been through this and all the processes and things that I followed is that it's not and you know, not only is it not fit for purpose, it's expensive to try and seek any form of redress and it's expensive at a time where when you've fallen foul of a rogue trader, you know, not many people have tens of thousands of pounds lying around that they can just go and fix it.

[00:08:23] Sam: Absolutely. Exactly that. No. Legal fees, court fees. 

[00:08:27] Adam: I think before we get on to, [00:08:30] to, to those bits, maybe we can hear from Sarah around, around her experience with the, well, what do we call, are we calling them cowboy builders or is that a bit 1990s? I don't think, I think, I think cowboy 

[00:08:39] Louise: builders, it makes it sound trivial, back to language again.

[00:08:42] Louise: I think road traders. And just on like, from Sam's perspective as well, he's a police officer. So again, it just illustrates what we say about situational or marketplace vulnerability. Okay. Sam's not a builder, so therefore when you enter into a contract or into a situation that you haven't done before, you are situationally vulnerable.

[00:08:59] Louise: So [00:09:00] where on paper you would think a policeman, they're not going to get, they're not going to lose money to a rogue trader. So it just highlights it can be anybody and you're very brave for talking about it. Thank you for coming on. 

[00:09:11] Adam: Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on. Uh, Sarah, do you want to just talk a little bit about, about your experience that you had?

[00:09:16] Sara: Yeah, we was renovating our home to make it accessible for my sister in law who's severely disabled in a wheelchair. It was to give her a better quality of life. We were having a back extension, [00:09:30] double extension, and to have the downstairs fully wheelchair accessible for her and a kitchen area as well.

[00:09:38] Sara: We was looking forward to this dream home. We'd worked all our lives and um, yeah, we was Looking forward to having this dream home, which didn't happen. Things, you trust your builder. And although you have that gut feeling, you're too scared. Um, he [00:10:00] already was in pocket. And I'm just thinking now, because my case is with Trading Standards, I'm thinking I need to not discuss.

[00:10:10] Sara: What actually went on, um, until the case is heard next year in court. So what I want to do on the podcast is be here for other people that have contacted me and Sam and, um, fight for them now. And when I can speak out is tell more of [00:10:30] my story, but the basic was, we was having a The home renovated for my disabled sister in law as well as my children and to make it a dream home, to make it a family home.

[00:10:41] Sara: Somewhere we would be happy. And um, it's just destroyed us. We was in rental accommodation that didn't support the family. It didn't support Debbie who's in a wheelchair. It was only supposed to have been for six months. And we ended up in that rental property for two and a [00:11:00] half years, which mentally and physically was draining.

[00:11:05] Sara: We've moved into another rental property that does support the family better. We're just living now, waiting for the time that we do get justice next year. And we are, as a family, one of the lucky ones that managed to get trading standards engaged, managed to get them to take on my case. And it's just a waiting game, it's [00:11:30] So we hired the builder in 2021, and we're still not home.

[00:11:35] Sara: Trading Standards got involved in August of 22, and we're already two years on, and still not got justice for what this builder's done to us.

[00:11:50] Adam: I'm really sorry to hear that and thank you for coming on and sharing your story. Louise, I wonder if you, if you can just give us a bit of an insight into the reasons why that does take that much [00:12:00] time to get from investigation to the court. 

[00:12:04] Louise: Well, initially it's around, you have to gather the trading standard services, each trading standard service.

[00:12:09] Louise: So there's what, 185 or so? 185. 90, 195 I think. 95, perfect, excellent. But 

[00:12:16] Adam: they tend to split up and get back together and all that kind of stuff. They do, they 

[00:12:20] Louise: do, like teenagers. So what you'll, each training centre service will have a different amount of resource because you're funded by the local authorities.

[00:12:29] Louise: As a general [00:12:30] rule, so each case will be assessed about whether or not it can be investigated or not, and whether or not there's a number of consumers affected by a particular bill or a particular person. And then it's about trying to gather as much evidence and information as they possibly can, so that they've got the strongest case to take against that, that particular rogue trader.

[00:12:47] Louise: Without knowing the details of all of the stuff and the investigation, you want to be gathering all of that evidence, then put it forward to get your legal team, to then put the strongest case forward to the judge. Or to the jury, depending on where it's heard. And then obviously we've got the massive, there's a massive [00:13:00] issue with the courts being horrendously backed up at the moment.

[00:13:03] Louise: So you've got to get it through the court system. And then you've got to get, if it does go to trial, if there is a, if for example, they go no guilt, they're not guilty if it ends up going in that situation. Then you have to have a trial, then you would have to have sentencing, then you would look at compensation orders, you'd look at all of that.

[00:13:18] Louise: So it's a really long, long process. Which I suspect most court cases are, but from a consumer perspective, living in a building site for Four years isn't ideal [00:13:30] 

[00:13:30] Adam: at the moment. So this is a not just affecting you two You've you've gone out and you've tried to find other victims of of rogue traders Is that correct and you and you've started this campaign?

[00:13:39] Adam: So so sam 

[00:13:40] Sam: sarah actually started the campaign and it wasn't until basically we started going through the experience, I say the process, sort of the experience of, you know, having fallen foul of a rogue trader that I started looking on social media. I mean, there's dedicated pages with sort of tens of thousands of people on social media, on Facebook, [00:14:00] on Instagram, and all this sort of stuff people share in there.

[00:14:02] Sam: experiences on a daily basis. Um, and it was on one of those pages that I saw the petition. At the time I'd had my own frustrations in engaging the local authority and trying to sort of take action against the builder that we'd fallen foul of. And I basically saw the campaign. Reached out to Sarah and said, you know, from, from my experience and like I said, being in the police, I thought I had an understanding of the justice system and how things should work.

[00:14:29] Sam: I [00:14:30] always sort of had the belief, well, actually, if something did go wrong, that system is there to support me and to protect me and to sort of help me through this and, you know, stop these people like much like in policing, obviously the criminal justice system, etc. And I just realized how. Poor that system was and obviously seeing Sarah her campaign again with her own frustrations in trying to seek redress and justice It's just something I wanted to get behind because I believe in right and wrong and I don't want anybody else to go through What what we as a family [00:15:00] and you know Obviously I've spoken to Sarah in a huge amount of detail about her issues as well, and many, many others.

[00:15:08] Sam: We don't, we don't want anybody else to go through it. So that's the, we're not going to change our experience now, we've lived that, we're still very much living it. Um, we want to prevent others from going through 

[00:15:20] Louise: it. I think it's also important to, so from an, sorry my dog's going nuts, from an, from an old [00:15:30] school perspective of what we used to, if you say to people rogue traders, they will think of a man in a white van, not giving you any paperwork, doing shoddy work, cutting your trees back for loads and loads of money for essentially a really cheap job or just doing those sort of things, really shoddy workmanship, but that's not what we're talking about here.

[00:15:46] Louise: These are legitimate companies on paper. So they will be registered with Companies House, a lot of them. They will give you the correct paperwork. So they'll give you cancellation right. You get terms and conditions. You get all of those things. They'll have reviews. They'll have [00:16:00] accreditations. They'll have the right memberships to different organizations.

[00:16:04] Louise: So on paper, These, these organizations or businesses, rogue traders, wherever we call them, criminals look like they're fully legitimate. So again, it's not people not checking all of those things. So what we see is a lot of these companies will Phoenix up, um, and then shut that particular company down and then Phoenix up as in a different company name, so then you're constantly getting that cycle.

[00:16:27] Sam: And there's, there's a huge amount, especially with social media, [00:16:30] all of these businesses have or tend to have quite a large social media presence with, you know, reviews, whether they're legitimate or not. And you sort of, uh, lured into, you know, Sarah said about trust and you trust someone that you employ, don't you?

[00:16:44] Sam: And you trust the builder, but you also are sort of almost conned into a, uh, sort of a full sense of belief because, you know, well, they've come recommended and I've seen locally, they've got a big social media presence and they've got a lot of reviews on Google or whatever it might [00:17:00] be. And I think it's, like I said, it's a lot more complicated than that.

[00:17:04] Sam: than just a man in a van saying I'm going to charge you a hundred quid to replace a single roof tile. There's, to me, it's almost with some of the rogue traders that, you know, we've, we've been told about and from our own experience, it's calculated. It's a calculated and quite convincing con. 

[00:17:22] Louise: The other thing with this is just to be clear, again, it's not all good trader platforms are equal.

[00:17:26] Louise: So where you're, you might see recommendations, they're not all equal. [00:17:30] And there's a lot of work going on nationally around that, that education piece and trying to bring those rogue, those. good trader schemes up to a certain standard because they're not all equal and that's really 

[00:17:39] Adam: important. And we do talk about that.

[00:17:41] Adam: We've got quite a few podcasts from season, I think season two and season three, we actually talk about how to find a good trusted trader and using the right, the right methods to do that. Trustmark being, being the number one. Uh, Sarah, so to come back to you, you, you started this campaign and you wanted to get behind it.

[00:17:55] Adam: And how did you start it? And, and, and how quickly did it take off? 

[00:17:59] Sara: [00:18:00] Initially? Um, I found a petition that was set up by a nurse back in, about October of 22 and I jumped on that petition and it finished really poorly I think in um, March with only a couple of thousand signatures. So I then decided that I was going to set up my own petition because I was on a mission and I knew that I would put everything into it.

[00:18:26] Sara: So I set up the new petition in April. I [00:18:30] researched how to do it. started it and since then it's snowballed where there were so many groups out there supporting us even towards the end to hit the 10 000 to just get that response off parliament people were coming together on facebook and sharing and it was yeah it was amazing what some of them were doing and we don't know how they did it but would i would i be right sam that person behind the scenes he was amazing weren't he getting everyone involved [00:19:00] and uh But, uh, I did do some videos, I went on the buses, I went in queues, uh, whereas I went to festivals, just anywhere where I could tap into people to be recognised and get the signatures just to hit that 10, 000, just to see what Parliament's response would be.

[00:19:22] Sara: And 

[00:19:23] Adam: how long did it take you to get to 10, 

[00:19:24] Sara: 000? Practically the full six months. Um, yeah, just before the six months ended, [00:19:30] we, we hit, we got 10, 999 signatures. Um, but 

[00:19:36] Adam: isn't that annoying? I mean, you should have 

[00:19:40] Sam: one more, just one more minute. Had we have had another three or six months, I think the difficulty was sort of trying to harness that initial interest and getting people to listen.

[00:19:54] Sam: And it was only through sort of other victims that would then go, well actually there's this petition and you know, their [00:20:00] friends and family having seen what they've lived through, their lived experiences, were then sharing it and it started to snowball towards the end. I think it was quite difficult initially because ultimately it's one of those things, I guess you're You know, they say ignorance is bliss.

[00:20:13] Sam: If you've never been through it, you're, you're never going to fully understand and comprehend just how damaging it is. So I think it had, we've had another six months, we probably would have got even more. 

[00:20:24] Adam: But so, so at the moment, anyone can understrate, [00:20:30] At the moment, anyone can undertake any construction, any building work without, without a license, without demonstrating a minimum level of competence.

[00:20:42] Adam: Yes, they can be signed up to badges and accreditations and trader platforms, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're qualified to do what they do. Well, 

[00:20:51] Louise: it depends what they're doing. So gas, you have to be registered, don't you? Electrician, you have to 

[00:20:55] Adam: be. Okay. Building work, not so much. 

[00:20:58] Sam: But that, that's the sort of [00:21:00] bit that I guess, you know, when you delve into it is, is a little bit mind blowing.

[00:21:04] Sam: I could pick up a brick and say to, you know, Mrs. Miggins down the road, I'm a bricklayer. I couldn't pick up a scalpel and go and pretend to be a surgeon. Or I couldn't pick up a, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't go and rewire someone's house without that accreditation. You know, I think that's where. 

[00:21:20] Louise: But we have, but, but, but we have this issue in lots of, lots of places that are under regulated.

[00:21:25] Louise: I was having this conversation just this week about counsellors. You don't have to be accredited. I [00:21:30] can call myself a counsellor. I can call myself a personal trainer if I want to as well. And again, these are people that are dealing with, say, your mind or your body. So again, there's loads of sectors if you, that are unregulated.

[00:21:41] Louise: But this one is, it seems to be slightly regulated, but not. Which is where the difficulty comes with some of it. 

[00:21:47] Adam: So, Sarah, what would, what would regulation bring? What would, what would licensing actually bring to, to the, the industry? 

[00:21:54] Sara: It'd bring competency. Probably, you know, you wouldn't have these real builders then.

[00:21:59] Sara: They'd have to [00:22:00] prove that they're competent. And this is where I struggle. This is where Sam comes in. I can, like, do all the talk, the talk. But when it comes to the reasonable, the words that you need, Sam always comes in. But we just want to put a stop to. This happening to other families in the future, and this is the only way forward.

[00:22:20] Sara: There's that loophole in the law that the cowboys, the rogue traders, are aware of. They can take deposits off you knowing that [00:22:30] you can't get that money back. To take them to court, it'd cost you thousands, and they just know that there's that loop in the law. So I know what I want to say in my head, but to say it, speak 

[00:22:42] Adam: it, if that makes sense.

[00:22:43] Adam: They know they can go and rip people off. 

[00:22:45] Sam: I think it's a bit of a balance of jeopardy, because as a consumer, when you hire a trader, you put all of your trust. in them, your, you know, you're putting your finances, your security, your emotions, your health, all of that sort of stuff. When you're having a large [00:23:00] project done, these traders, you know, being a limited business, et cetera, when it does go wrong or, you know, when they do rip you off and take your money, they don't, they don't have that jeopardy.

[00:23:10] Sam: They don't lose that money. They don't lose their livelihoods. They don't lose their family homes. And I think from, you know, Way back when Sarah and I first started discussing things and you know the petition and things what we sort of hope regulation would look like is The only way I can sort of compare it is to a sort of like a driving license.

[00:23:27] Sam: If you, you know, if you get caught [00:23:30] speeding, you risk losing your driving license. If you get caught being a rogue trader and ripping people off and, you know, there's allegations and things against you, you potentially lose the opportunity to earn a living. And obviously then that has the impact that, you know, that jeopardizes your family life, your, your, all of that sort of stuff.

[00:23:47] Sam: Whereas at the minute, I could set up a limited company, pretend to be a builder, go and take a 15 grand deposit. Disappearing to the wind and shut down that business. And for that person that I've taken the money off of, it's not even impossible for them to [00:24:00] pursue me or, you know, to, to get any sort of redress.

[00:24:04] Sam: Um, so there needs to be something that, you know, to be a good trader, you are also putting something on the line. You know, you're taking pride in your work and you're knowing that if it goes wrong and you know, if you're found guilty of committing rogue trading offenses, you're going to lose that license and that's drape.

[00:24:22] Sara: I think that's it. There's no consequences for them. You go to the police and they say it's a civil case and it's not. It's a criminal [00:24:30] case. It's theft. It's, it's damage to your property. So that's where the law needs to change as well. And hopefully that will stop a lot of the road traders as well. If you know, we put a stop to that and they realize that they're not going to get away with it, but there's so many of them.

[00:24:48] Sara: There's not enough funding for trading standards and there's not enough police officers to deal with every single case, so it's like there's all these leaves, all these rogue traders [00:25:00] and we need to tackle the roots to stop them from blooming. And keep going, if that makes sense. Yeah, we've, 

[00:25:06] Adam: we've got, we've got a work colleague in the scam team who's got a t shirt that just says, it's not civil whenever, whenever she goes to meetings with the police.

[00:25:14] Adam: And, 

[00:25:14] Sam: and do you know what, that is, that is a huge part of it. And obviously being on the other side of the fence to that and the criminal element, and you know, my day job obviously being investigation of crime, you look at things like fraud by false representation, and in fact, any, any, any offences under the [00:25:30] Fraud Act.

[00:25:30] Sam: theft. Like Cyrus says, there's an element of criminal damage there because there is recklessness and there is negligence. 

[00:25:36] Louise: And there's a consumer protection from unfair trading regulations, not to bore everybody, which is specific legislation set up to deal with misleading actions and omissions and certain banned practices, which is a trading standards piece of legislation again.

[00:25:48] Louise: And there's, and this is, we have this battle constantly, but it's about misinformation. Which, oh, Adam loves this stuff. Misinformation. Oh, don't, I mean, yeah. Don't start on that. But it is misinformation because people don't [00:26:00] understand the criminal side of this stuff. It's also, like, if you, even the civil side of it, like, navigating the civil side of it is a minefield for people that aren't trained in it.

[00:26:09] Louise: And I would find it awful, and I'm trained in it. I've got 20 years of training in this stuff. 

[00:26:15] Sam: Yeah, it's, it's, it's mind blowing. But, I think, when we come back to it, for us, I think, You know, I think we both appreciate, obviously, we've had conversations previously, Lou, getting, changing is going to be a really difficult, a really difficult process because the government are [00:26:30] convinced that there's sufficient protection there and that, you know, we've got sufficient avenues to seek redress through the courts, through the local authorities, etc.

[00:26:38] Sam: There needs to be something that, Builders are aware there could be a consequence. So, so, you know, we say about licensing, if you mess up, you wouldn't go out and driving your car around your hometown at a hundred mile an hour, because you know, you'd get stopped by the police. You could use your license, your ability to drive a car.

[00:26:53] Sam: But the builders don't have that. Gas safe engineers have to have to be recertified every 12 months. Electricians [00:27:00] obviously have to be up to date, you know, with the latest addition from the NIC and all of that sort of other bits and bobs in the government bodies. Builders who ultimately. You know, in our opinion, have just as much to do with your, your safety and all of that sort of stuff, because, you know, like I said, the back of my house was leaning to a point the structural engineer came around and said, well, you probably got three days here before this goes, you need to get a builder in to prop it up, you know, if my children upstairs are sleeping in their bedroom and the house falls down, their health is just as much in jeopardy as if [00:27:30] the electrician didn't.

[00:27:31] Sam: Messes up the wiring and you know, there's live wires and stuff in the, in the house. So it's, it's, uh, it's difficult cause it's, it's frustrating to see that regulation could be put in place as it is with certain elements of the domestic sort of building industry, but not all of it. 

[00:27:44] Adam: Yeah, absolutely. So this campaign is a fantastic campaign and you've got the Federation of Master Builders on board as well.

[00:27:51] Adam: So they're, they're involved with you as well. What, if, if anyone listening to this podcast, what, what can. The average Joe, [00:28:00] the, the normal person in the street do to help support this campaign. Is there anything they can do at the moment or is it now going through its process? 

[00:28:07] Sara: It's going through its process at the minute.

[00:28:08] Sara: Um, behind the scenes, a website is being designed and put together. And from that, then that's when we need the public to get behind us, to reach out to their MPs. There's going to be two emails. on the website, one to send to your MP having been a victim to a builder and one to send to your [00:28:30] MP having concerns around hiring, employing a builder to do renovation work and this we hope will reach every single MP within the country.

[00:28:41] Sara: I think it's 650. that's out there. I've met with two recently who are happy to support the campaign and um, I believe that there's more out there that have also been approached and they're also saying that they're willing to support the campaign. So we know that we've got a few [00:29:00] MPs at the minute and moving forward we want to challenge every single MP to get behind us to approach Parliament for change.

[00:29:09] Sam: I think there's um, there's, there's an issue with the difficulties in pursuing any form of action, you know, when you're already going through a horrendously stressful time, you're worried about your house or your livelihood, all of that sort of stuff, your finances. I don't think that the scale of the problem is truly known because I think so many people, uh, are massively deterred [00:29:30] from seeking civil action reporting.

[00:29:32] Sam: You know, solicitor costs. Yeah, solicitor costs 500 pounds an hour to, you know, write, write letters before action and all of that sort of stuff. So I think alongside what Sarah said, we we're focusing on trying to educate and, you know, before hire, before hiring a trader, these are the things you need to consider.

[00:29:48] Sam: Have you considered, you know, checking X, Y, Z, but also trying to. highlight to those in power who think the current system is sufficient, just how widespread the scale [00:30:00] is, you know, how much it's costing the economy and not just, you know, us as homeowners have lost out the tax, you know, because so many of the road traders that we've, we've been not VAT registered.

[00:30:12] Sam: The builder that I had openly Bragged to my wife and I after we'd had issues with him that he's never paid a cent in income tax and all of this sort of stuff and, you know, trying to, I guess, collate the information that says that we can then present and say, well, actually, you don't think this is a big problem, but, you know, the figure that you read out [00:30:30] earlier, one and a half billion quid a year.

[00:30:32] Sam: Costs, costs of homeowners in the UK, the impact that's also having on the economy and so on and so forth. So it's sort of multi, sort of many strands to what we're trying to achieve. The end goal ultimately is to stop these people being able to get away with what, with what they do. 

[00:30:47] Louise: If you think about as well, there's an opportunity as well at the moment with the, with the, um, the Labour Party and the fact obviously we've got a new government and the fact there's a real driver around green energy and making people's houses more energy efficient.

[00:30:59] Louise: So we're going to [00:31:00] be in a position where there's going to be lots of people trying to, we've got a, we haven't got enough skilled workforce in that, in that space as it is, so there's gonna be lots of people going into that workforce, um, and there's an opportunity to tag this on with the Labour government to get their interest, um, and get, get support to get, whether it's code, you know, I mean, we've had this debate, whether it's licensing or code approval or whatever it is in relation to getting more regulation in.

[00:31:23] Louise: To ensure that people that are working in consumers homes, and if we started with green energy and tap it on to that, tag it on to that [00:31:30] rather, tap it on to that, tag it on to that, so that people that have to have a certain standard of approval or accreditation or whatever that looks like and offer that additional protection to consumers, because there's huge amounts of marketplace vulnerability, especially with green energy as well.

[00:31:46] Adam: There. There really is. There really is. Um, I, I, we've kind of come, we're kind of coming to an end and I, I want to kind of finish off with some general advice for consumers. Firstly, if. If you have [00:32:00] been a victim of a rogue trader or you're currently going through a situation now where a builder, a construction worker has let you down and is costing you a huge amount of money, what advice would you give to that person now?

[00:32:13] Sara: Citizen's advice? I think that's 

[00:32:14] Sam: really difficult. 

[00:32:16] Adam: Citizen's advice. 

[00:32:17] Sam: It's a really difficult. Every situation is different. Yeah. And, and even then, you know, Sarah and I sort of followed slightly different paths in terms of, you know, where we want it to be, [00:32:30] like, like you and Lewis said, trading standards across the country are very different in terms of their resource and their capability.

[00:32:36] Sam: It's almost a little bit of a postcode lottery. It really is a postcode lottery. 

[00:32:39] Adam: Yeah, it absolutely is. Yeah, 

[00:32:40] Sam: if you make a report to Trading Standards, whether or not they're going to investigate. 

[00:32:44] Adam: So a report to Trading Standards can be done through the Citizens Advice Helpline. That's the way to report to Trading Standards.

[00:32:51] Sara: And if you get no joy with that, contact your local MP, get them on board, get them to contact your local council offices [00:33:00] to ask Trading Standards to engage. 

[00:33:02] Louise: Just want to, just want to caveat that, that Trading Standards do want to investigate this stuff. It's just they haven't got the resources to do it.

[00:33:09] Louise: They really do want to investigate every single complaint that they get in relation to this stuff. 

[00:33:14] Sara: But that said, if we, if we get this industry regulated and licensed, it's going to take a lot of pressure off trading standards and the police. So you put the effort in, in one area, we'll take the pressure off 

[00:33:27] Louise: in the other area.

[00:33:28] Louise: It depends, it depends, well that's not true [00:33:30] necessarily because it depends who they delegate the legislation to then ensure that those builders on those local areas are actually licensed. So it doesn't always work like that unfortunately. Because we put in a, we put, it's the enforcement, they put in a, they put in legislation, they go, someone's got to enforce that, we'll give it to trading standards with no extra funding.

[00:33:45] Louise: But if they start. And 

[00:33:47] Sam: that's it. It's 

[00:33:48] Adam: a start. Yes it is, absolutely. Yeah, it absolutely is. 

[00:33:53] Sam: I was just going to say, ultimately, what it needs across the board, I mean, working in the public sector, we're, we're massively under resourced in the [00:34:00] police, my wife's a nurse in the NHS, massively under resourced, local authority, massively under resourced, I know there's no, there's no pot of gold, is there, that the government can dip into and say, well actually here's more staff, here's more accessibility, here's more capability, etc.

[00:34:15] Sam: But somewhere along the line, something's got to give where actually the government go, do you know what, our local authority is massively underfunded. In Bedfordshire, where I live, there's two trading standards officers covering a, covering a county of a million plus people. There are, 

[00:34:28] Sara: there are a lot [00:34:30] of cases behind the scenes that Because it's taking time, it's You know, there's a lot due to come out.

[00:34:36] Sara: Once they realize that people are making a stand to them, then maybe that will have an effect on road traders, because there's more publicity, and there's more people being taken to court. I know of a few cases behind the scenes, and it's just going through the process at the minute, and, you know, hopefully once more come to light, then that might deter people.

[00:34:58] Sara: Some of the wrong traders. I [00:35:00] doubt it though. 

[00:35:00] Adam: Cause 

[00:35:01] Sara: yeah, 

[00:35:01] Adam: it's, it's, it's a, it's a very affluent economy, isn't it? We're, we're, we're a wealthy nation with, uh, uh, always looking to improve our homes as well. Wanting, wanting to having that status. Okay. So if I was someone who wants, who was looking to do some work, do some construction work in my home, what would be the best way of finding that right trader?

[00:35:21] Adam: And I know we have discussed this on previous podcasts. So, so what would be the best way of finding it? 

[00:35:28] Sam: For me, it would just be [00:35:30] research, research, research. Ask to see previous projects, ask for things that you don't think about because you sort of get caught up in the excitement of, you know, we're going to have a new kitchen or we're going to have a new bathroom and all that sort of stuff.

[00:35:40] Sam: Um, do a bit more digging, look into their company history, um, look into their potential sort of personal history. Social media is obviously massively influential at the minute, both positive and negative. Um, I just don't think in terms of before hiring someone in terms of sort of educating yourself. I [00:36:00] just don't think there's enough that you can do because, you know, for me and for Sarah, it's been such a huge learning curve, all of these things in hindsight, we've discovered that we could have checked or, you know, there's things out there and, you know, you can go to consumer bodies and all that sort of stuff.

[00:36:14] Sam: Just, Research, research, research, you know, meet with them, ask to see previous clients, all of, all of that sort of stuff. Just check and double check. It's a huge 

[00:36:24] Adam: amount of money. You're going to spend, make sure you spend it, spend it wisely. Absolutely. Sarah and Sam, thank you [00:36:30] so much for coming on to our podcast, Louise.

[00:36:33] Adam: I'm going to, I'm going to wrap it up there unless you want to add anything. 

[00:36:36] Louise: No, I just want to say it's these sort of real, we can talk about this stuff all we want and I can talk about our own personal experiences but this is the sort of stories that brings it to life so that people can actually start to realize how affected people are by this stuff.

[00:36:49] Louise: So really appreciate you being on. 

[00:36:51] Adam: Yeah, thank you so much. And when the website goes up and is up and running, please pass it on to us and we can, we can put information out on our social media around that. [00:37:00] Licensing builders, it feels like it's an obvious thing to do. It increases consumer protection. It increases professionalism, increases safety, all these kinds of things.

[00:37:08] Adam: There's so many benefits to it, aren't there? It really does seem like a no brainer. Sam, Sarah, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. Uh, as ever, Consumer Friend is here with all the podcasts. We're at www. consumerfriend. org. uk. Please like, subscribe, and share. Sam, thank you very much. 

[00:37:26] Sam: Thank you very much for having us.

[00:37:27] Sam: Sarah, 

[00:37:28] Adam: thank you very much. [00:37:30] for 

[00:37:30] Sara: having me. 

[00:37:32] Adam: And Louise, see you later. Bye bye. 

[00:37:35] Sara: Bye. This is Consumer Friend.

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Adam Carter

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Louise Baxter

Host