The power of language - STOP BLAMING VICTIMS

How our language is blaming fraud victims

Release Date: 25 Nov 2024

Host(s):

• Adam Carter
• Louise Baxter MBE (LouBax)

Guest(s):

• Dr. Elisabeth Carter – Associate Professor at Kingston University specializing in criminology and forensic linguistics.

Episode Summary:

In this episode of the Consumer Friend Podcast, Adam and Louise are joined by Dr. Elisabeth Carter, a leading expert in forensic linguistics and criminology. Dr. Carter provides fascinating insights into how language is used by criminals to manipulate and coerce their victims, from postal fraud to romance scams and APP fraud (Authorised Push Payment fraud).

Elisabeth explains the psychological tactics used to groom victims into compliance, comparing these methods to coercive control in domestic abuse. Drawing from her research and collaboration with law enforcement, she discusses how tailored communication and reframing language—such as using "stolen" instead of "lost"—can empower victims and challenge the stigma of fraud.

Listeners will walk away with a greater understanding of the power of words in both committing fraud and supporting victims, as well as how to spot and resist these manipulative tactics.

Key Takeaways:

1. Fraud as Coercion: Fraud mirrors coercive control, focusing on manipulating victims through language and psychological grooming.
2. The Power of Words: Criminals use carefully chosen phrases to instill trust, urgency, or fear, grooming victims into harmful actions.
3. Victim Support: Using empathetic language—such as framing funds as "stolen"—can empower victims and reduce feelings of shame or blame.
4. Neurodiverse Vulnerabilities: Criminals exploit how neurodiverse individuals may interpret language literally, underscoring the need for protective measures.
5. Collaboration with Law Enforcement: Elisabeth’s work helps police and other responders improve their communication with victims, ensuring more effective support.
6. 
   

Resources & Links:

• Consumer Friend Website – For tips and resources on consumer protection.
• Thames Valley Police Romance Fraud Booklet – Co-authored by Dr. Elisabeth Carter.
• Action Fraud – UK’s national fraud reporting center.
• Victim Support UK – Support for victims of crime, including fraud.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in understanding the psychological impact of fraud and the importance of language in supporting victims and combating criminal tactics.

Please like, subscribe and rate to help increase the reach in the UK. You can also follow us on socials:

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• Website: Consumer Friend
• Twitter: @ConsumerFriendUK
• Instagram: @ConsumerFriendOfficial
• TikTok

Transcript

[00:00:10] Adam: Hello and welcome to the Consumer Friend podcast with me, Adam Carter and Louise Baxter, MBE. Hi Lou. 

[00:00:16] LouBax: Hi Ads, how are you? 

[00:00:18] Adam: Good, thank you. We're still available online for all consumer rights issues, just google us. If we can help, we will, so please get in touch. In this series of podcasts, we are interviewing industry experts from various sectors and having some fascinating, my words, conversations around human issues and behaviours in an ever increasing digital world, fraud and scams and what makes us as humans tick.

[00:00:40] Adam: Or not tick. But before we do that, it's only right to say hi Lubacs, how are you? 

[00:00:45] LouBax: I am good, thank you, Ad. A little bit sore after attempting to play hockey with 15 year olds on Saturday. In my head, I'm that fast and that good. I'm not. 

[00:00:56] Adam: Yeah, it's frustrating when it all goes, isn't it? I do [00:01:00] five a side football and I can't do what I used to be able to do.

[00:01:02] Adam: It really upsets me. 

[00:01:04] LouBax: You know when you're like, I can make that? And then you're like Yeah, and it turns out you can't. And in your head, you're really fast and like Yeah. And then your kid plays you and goes, what are you doing? And looks at you like you're a total, like, idiot. You're like, oh. Didn't quite look the picture in my head.

[00:01:21] Adam: Harry came down to watch me do, do Fiverside once and he's not been since. It's, it's not classic football. 

[00:01:29] LouBax: It's a bit rubbish. It's also as well, like doing the podcast like this or video. I listened to, I watched a, um, like a, a funny short the other day about how when women get to a certain age, you can't wear a center part because you end up looking like an owl.

[00:01:42] LouBax: And now all I can focus on is like my middle part where I look like a, like a tawny owl.

[00:01:50] LouBax: So for those people that want to see the clip. 

[00:01:54] Look at Louise 

[00:01:55] Adam: and think. Okay. [00:02:00] I don't understand. I didn't realize 

[00:02:01] LouBax: women had a receding hairline, but apparently we do. Like, it's just joyful. Whenever I look at my, we've 

[00:02:08] Adam: got these pods at work that have got these, these top lighters and these, these top lighters, a light from the ceiling, whatever it's called.

[00:02:16] Adam: And I, I look at myself in a team's meeting and I'm just completely bald. But like, if, if the light is okay, then I'm not completely bald. The darkness is my friend. 

[00:02:27] LouBax: But also you're, you're nearly six foot. I'm four foot nine. Everybody can see my head. No one can see 

[00:02:32] Adam: yours. Little Lubacs. That's why we call you Little Lubacs, isn't it?

[00:02:36] Adam: Isn't that right? 

[00:02:37] LouBax: That's what you call me, Adam. 

[00:02:40] Adam: It is true. Right. OK, so we have got today. Really, really fascinating. I'm really excited by this podcast. We have got Dr. Elizabeth Carter. She is an associate professor at Kingston University specializing in criminology. Liz, you're going to need to explain that.

[00:02:56] Adam: And forensic linguistics. Again, you're going to have to [00:03:00] explain that. Her research into the use of language by criminals, particularly in fraud and financial abuse, and how criminals manipulate victims using communication has led to her working closely with law enforcement and other sectors to improve fraud prevention and victim support.

[00:03:14] Adam: She's a media contributor and award winning professional. Dr. Carter has appeared on numerous TV shows and radio programs, talking about her work and helping people understand the language criminals use. Hi Liz, how are you? Thank you for coming onto our podcast. 

[00:03:31] Liz Carter: Hello, all fine here. Thank you so much for inviting me.

[00:03:34] Adam: It's worth pointing out that we, I've certainly known you since 2018 when I started with the National Trading Standards Scams Team. I was part of a project called Scam Marshals. I came in to launch that project. And as part of that, people would send us in mailings, handwritten mailings or scam mail that you were particularly interested in having a look at and understanding.

[00:03:57] Adam: And there was one, one that I remember very, [00:04:00] very well, is that There was a handwritten letter that went on for pages, three or four, five, six pages, handwritten asking a victim in London, I think it was to send money for medical bills and for legal bills to somewhere in Africa. And what fascinated me was these were all handwritten messages and there were loads of them.

[00:04:23] Adam: So in my head, there was like someone in a, in a big building in Africa, just making all these people hand write these letters. And I know we sent them to you. Do you remember that? I don't know if you remember that. 

[00:04:33] Liz Carter: I do, and I was absolutely thrilled to be able to get hold of these, these letters. These letters are often referred to as junk mail, but as we know, these are, these are scam, these are fraud, uh, letters, this is fraud in action.

[00:04:46] Liz Carter: And for me, it's a very rich source of data. And, um, From that, that's one of the first pieces of work I did around the language of fraud in terms of psychic scams and postal fraud and those kind of things. And I published [00:05:00] that in a, in a journal called Crime Media Culture. Unfortunately, it's one of the only ones that's not accessible.

[00:05:04] Liz Carter: It's behind an academic paywall, but ever since then, everything I've published is, is now accessible. And I wanted to really bring to the forefront, to the surface, that these messages aren't just junk, they are, you know, ways in which these criminals can psychologically abuse victims and make them feel as though they have to respond and send money.

[00:05:28] Liz Carter: And then I started talking to, Lou, and we got to know each other, and I remember you saying that this is, you know, sometimes a job for victims, you know, they'd have their station set up, replying to these messages, feeling they have to do it every day, and it becomes a really important part of, of their day to do that, and that social contact.

[00:05:48] Liz Carter: And that's when that lightbulb started going off for me, that we really need to see. Was that 

[00:05:51] Adam: back in 2018? When did that start? Yeah, 

[00:05:55] Liz Carter: it was, it was, it was around then. So I started writing, it was, it was [00:06:00] before then it was around 2015. I wrote this article in 2015, so it must, must have been about a year or two before then, but it all kind of came together when I met Lou and started working with you because it started to bring that element, that human element to it.

[00:06:13] Liz Carter: Whereas I was looking at the data and the language, but. this victim on the other end, they are sometimes really motivated to respond because it's that social contact and that's what really started developing this whole idea of using forensic linguistics to try and stop this from happening and also protect, protect society, protect individuals.

[00:06:32] LouBax: Because what we saw with a lot of the letters and a lot of the people that were responding, there was a social isolation wasn't it and the fact that people treated it as like say a task as part of their daily routine but it was also sometimes the criminals became I say that like friends and their social contact and also it was and like there'd be a full desk set up like the amount of times I've gone into a scam victims house and there'd be a full desk set up which we organized where people would use it and respond like an admin role continuously responding to letters [00:07:00] all of the time so again that was one of the other things we used to talk about as well was if you take that away and actually you do manage to break that rationalization trap with a victim to actually illustrate that they are a scam victim is what do you replace that with?

[00:07:14] LouBax: Because actually, you're taking away their daily routine, you're taking away their purpose. You have to replace that with something else. And there's lots of debates, wasn't there, about well, that shouldn't be our job. I was like, I disagree. I disagree, but from a Trading Standards perspective. Um, it has to be a holistic victim support approach.

[00:07:31] LouBax: That's where we're at. There's a massive gap there. Yeah. 

[00:07:33] Liz Carter: Yeah, and it's, and it's huge. And it was a bit, you know, like, past the buck. It's like, whose, whose responsibility is it? It's well, actually, it's everyone's and it's ours. And we're going to take it on. And we're going to start addressing this. And that really brought to the fore, this idea that protect messaging, this messaging designed to protect individuals from being victim of fraud or being re victimized isn't enough.

[00:07:55] Liz Carter: Because quite often victims want that contact. And if you stop that contact, they are going [00:08:00] to seek it in other places that may not be good as well. Um, so we do, we do have this social and ethical responsibility for taking away something. We need to replace it. I 

[00:08:09] Adam: just want to take it back a little bit in terms of, of the work that you do.

[00:08:12] Adam: So you've been studying The language that criminals use to coerce their victims, to groom their victims, and you've been doing that in relation to fraud, and you've been doing that for a very, very long time. What, what, what have you, I mean, I'd say it's quite a simple question. What have you found? But I guess it's a very, very long answer.

[00:08:36] Adam: What have you found? And has that language evolved over time? 

[00:08:40] Liz Carter: Okay, great questions. Um, in a nutshell, what I found is that the language used by these perpetrators of fraud, these fraud criminals, is very similar to the language you'd find in domestic abuse and coercive control. I think that's the major finding that's, that's, that's come out of all of this.

[00:08:57] Liz Carter: And it is, it is evolving, it is [00:09:00] changing. But if I were to say one major finding, it would be that Because that changes everything. It changes the way we look at language. It changes the way we even look at this crime as well. It's not like theft. It's something very different. And it's also slowly changing CPS, uh, Grand Prosecution Service, uh, responses to, to fraud as well.

[00:09:22] Liz Carter: And also sentencing, it changes things slowly but surely. We see more and more often that judges are taking into consideration the psychological harm of fraud. That's the financial. In fact, the financial loss can be relatively small, but if there is a large psychological harm, that sentence can go up.

[00:09:39] Liz Carter: It's not good enough yet. It doesn't reflect it. 

[00:09:43] LouBax: There's a disconnect though, isn't there? Because the judges don't always understand the fraud and the seriousness and actually the psychological well being effects it has. 

[00:09:51] Adam: And other law enforcement agencies. And it can 

[00:09:53] LouBax: be a bit of a luxury. Or anyone, actually.

[00:09:55] LouBax: Yes. Because it's people. 

[00:09:56] Liz Carter: Yeah, yeah. And it's still there as a financial [00:10:00] crime. And that's the barrier that we have. That's not quite right. And it does need finessing, but it's still very early days because we're talking about, you know, this has come around over the last, you know, eight years or so. Um, and really only in the public consciousness, maybe the last two or three years, um, this connection here.

[00:10:17] Liz Carter: Um, so it is a very slow ship to turn. And, um, What we really need is for the law enforcement and also the courts, the whole criminal justice system to stop, not stop seeing fraud as purely a financial crime or even first and foremost financial crime. And that would make things a lot better because then we can understand actually the harm that's there is, is dual.

[00:10:39] Liz Carter: Now, Adam, you said about how things are evolving. I see more and more now when we're talking about romance fraud, in person romance fraud, More cases, and I think they're being reported more often. They're being seen more often in the media, but I think they are also happening more often too. [00:11:00] And these are really interesting, um, as an academic, but also really concerning as a human being and also a, you know, person.

[00:11:07] Liz Carter: Partly a practitioner in this area because really sometimes the financial harm is not there. So we're edging more towards coercive control, more towards domestic abuse type arrangements. But, it is still a fraud, there is still that romance fraud in the background. Financial 

[00:11:24] LouBax: abuse, isn't it? Like, so it's interfamilia, interfamilia financial abuse, similar to that from an adult social care perspective.

[00:11:31] LouBax: Do you want to just 

[00:11:32] Adam: explain interfamilia? So 

[00:11:34] LouBax: it's like, if, if, if like, you were caring for your mum, and then you financially abused her, so you stole her money, she gave you her bank card so that you could access her money to buy her shopping, but you took an extra 50 every week, that's financial abuse. So, we, we see a lot of that and that's even more tricky to get people to, isn't it tricky Adam?

[00:11:51] LouBax: It's more difficult for people to report because you're reporting your son or your carer or your support. So, again, we don't do it and we don't always recognize it [00:12:00] as abuse either, which is where the, the difficulty comes with it. Liz, we worked on a piece of research, didn't we, with the Scam Scene, which I think was nearly four years ago, that piece of research.

[00:12:09] LouBax: Yes, gosh time flies. Mapping that domestic abuse, domestic violence, domestic violence, domestic violence, domestic situation across to a scams and fraud situation, which is now, so we've got that research, it's now moved it on slightly until we've got actual practitioner training about what language to use with victims.

[00:12:24] LouBax: So we've, we've flipped it slightly, so it's the language that the criminals use to coerce and groom the victims, but also then the language we use as law enforcement or members of the public to try and support those victims. So there's two bits, two lanes of language, shall we say. this, 

[00:12:43] Liz Carter: yes. This recognizes that actually as, as somebody receiving this, this report or as someone who's tasked to deal with it, that we also have a responsibility to not accidentally unintentionally cause further harm to the victim by our use of language.

[00:12:59] Liz Carter: [00:13:00] So, you know, Like, how did you lose the money? So the money, you didn't lose the money, it was taken from you, it was stolen from you. So those small pieces of language really make a massive difference, especially when someone has already been defrauded through the use of language. They'll be hyper aware, and they'll be looking for ways in which they were wrong.

[00:13:20] Liz Carter: They will be looking for ways in which that they were negligent or they should blame themselves. And we have to be really careful not to offer those crumbs. We in fact need to give them reassurance through our language. 

[00:13:31] LouBax: Because there's two bits. So your, uh, your, I was going to say your Tim, your husband, does a lot of work around secondary victimization.

[00:13:39] LouBax: Because again, I've worked with him around some of that stuff. And actually, by the language we use, we cause secondary victimization to people that are already a victim of crime. There is. It's whilst we, we and I bang on about language quite a lot, it's so important the language we use and that first interaction that a victim has to ensure that we don't subject them to secondary victimisation [00:14:00] and then basically silence them because of the shame that we impose with the language that we use.

[00:14:06] Liz Carter: Yeah, absolutely. And one of, one of my recommendations for the, for the criminal justice system really, and for, for policing, is to use ABE interviews for, for victims of fraud. It's Achieving Best Evidence interviews. And these are interviews that are reserved for, for crimes where there is a psychological element.

[00:14:24] Liz Carter: They are, they are used um, when victims coercive control, for example. Um, but not, um, habitually regularly for victims of fraud and I think that perhaps we're missing a trick there because there is information that victims could provide that would be really useful particularly with fraud Where there is that, uh, element of, of coercion, because victims don't necessarily know that that's what's been going on and they won't necessarily come out with all that information unless you treat them really carefully in, into view.

[00:14:59] Liz Carter: Uh, and that [00:15:00] also will widen things up. in terms of capturing that psychological harm and in turn will help the Crown Prosecution Service understand the crime itself. Um, I have been involved in, in a case as an expert witness, for example, where the Crown Prosecution Service was not really convinced that this was the crime it was, this was a type of fraud, until I looked at the interactions and I said, well, these, this is coercion here.

[00:15:25] Liz Carter: This person isn't agreeing to send the money, they've been coerced into it, and they don't know why they're sending the money. And that was really helpful, um, in terms of charging decision. But a lot of that can be remedied, I think, if we, if we gave ABEs to victims of fraud. Yeah, so 

[00:15:39] Adam: achieving best evidence, it's about having a conversation with the victim rather than saying, What happened?

[00:15:44] Adam: What date? What time? Who saw it? How much money? You're treating someone like a, like a victim rather than a witness. 

[00:15:52] LouBax: Absolutely. And They are a witness here. Yes. Yeah. But if you, if you think about a different type of fraud, I've done some research in the last couple of weeks around money mules, [00:16:00] particularly looking at the student population.

[00:16:01] LouBax: So if, if as a student, so we, we've, I had some anecdotal evidence come, come in my direction. So I was like, right, we need to do something about this. As I do like a magpie going, Oh, let's go over there. It was, um, students going to university. So they, they previously had a bank account and then they turned 18 and they want to convert their bank account to an adult bank account.

[00:16:21] LouBax: So they've had a child bank account, they want to convert it. They've tried to do this with several different banks. And this was anecdotal evidence from a bank. And they just reject students who have previously been used as money mules, um, and for the audience. A money mule is somebody whose bank account is used to basically launder money.

[00:16:37] LouBax: So a criminal, it's adverts on things like social media, uh, Instagram saying, um, do you want to earn some quick money, do you want to work from home, those sort of things. The criminals will then ask to use your bank account, passport a large amount of money or a small amount of money into your, any amount of money into your bank account, leave you say, 200, 500 for, um, because you've allowed them to use your bank account and then [00:17:00] push the money on and keep bouncing it so it's harder to trace.

[00:17:03] LouBax: But what happens is you become part of the criminal organisation. So then, when these students are then applying for an adult bank account, they're being rejected. But they're not being told why they're rejected. So then it's blocking them from accessing and having a bank account. And then it affects their credit rating, which then means that they potentially can't rent a property.

[00:17:22] LouBax: at university. And the knock on effects, so psychologically, practically, are insane for this stuff. Yeah, 

[00:17:32] Liz Carter: yeah. And we also think about where do those students go then for those kind of services? They're not going to go to legitimate services. This is, you know, a crim. The criminological concept here is if you drive people away from legitimate places to either earn money or store use money, they will go to illegitimate places because they still need to rent properties.

[00:17:50] Liz Carter: They still need to have somewhere to put their money. They still need to earn money. If they can't do it legitimately, they'll do it illegitimately. So we might be driving them into crime 

[00:17:58] LouBax: and also how do we not, [00:18:00] how do you undo that? How do undo the fact you're, because. students that potentially would have allowed the criminal to use their bank account won't even know that it's a crime.

[00:18:11] LouBax: Yeah and they are actually a victim of crime here rather 

[00:18:14] than yeah 

[00:18:15] LouBax: but like you say it's that complicit so with fraud this is one of the reasons that we have this blame and this shame because not where unauthorized fraud so if somebody hacks your bank account and takes all your money that is slightly different but where you've passported your money your personal information and given money to a criminal We've had to participate in the crime, haven't we?

[00:18:35] LouBax: Yeah. Which is where it's quite similar to a domestic abuse situation because again, you stay in that situation or you date that particular person. 

[00:18:43] Mm-Hmm. 

[00:18:43] LouBax: So it's, it's where you have to do it is that that's the mind issue that we have in the fact that you are doing something to actively participate in it, which is where we try to blame ourselves.

[00:18:57] LouBax: Is that right? Yeah. Can we summarise that correctly? Yeah, [00:19:00] 

[00:19:00] Liz Carter: absolutely. You know, what generally happens societally, and also when we're talking about criminal justice system responses, is that individuals have become a victim of this crime, but they are technically complicit because they are sending their money and they are saying, yes, I'd like to send the money.

[00:19:18] Liz Carter: And quite often they will argue with the bank's fraud team and say, let me send my money. I really want to, what's happening underlying that is they are being coerced into doing so. Um, they're being groomed into thinking it's a good idea. Their reality has been so distorted that they don't realize that they are, their money's being stolen from them.

[00:19:35] Liz Carter: So it's the cruelest. type of crime in a way, because they are being used as a tool through which to harm themselves. And then if you think about it, then being a victim of that crime, you then turn the blame on yourself. It's like, well, I did send it. And then when you have the bank saying, well, you did send it, you're negligent.

[00:19:52] Liz Carter: And you have perhaps the criminal justice system response saying, well, you know, you, you have agreed to it. So, you know, is this maybe a civil matter? [00:20:00] You can see how the shame then piles on. But it's a completely different crime from, from theft or any, anything else where something's, you know, taken out of your pocket or you are being used to take that money out of your own pocket and put, place it in the hands of criminals and to try and change that societal response of blame of the victim is, is one of our biggest challenges.

[00:20:24] Adam: I, I could listen to you for hours. It is amazing. I kind of listen to you, I go, I want to know what you know, there's some kind of, can I download you? 

[00:20:39] LouBax: I love this. I've 

[00:20:40] Adam: got, 

[00:20:40] LouBax: I've got like, I just 

[00:20:42] Adam: want 

[00:20:43] LouBax: to, 

[00:20:43] Adam: I just want to talk. So with your knowledge and with everything that you know about this language, you, you now work with law enforcement.

[00:20:53] Adam: You now do a lot of work with the media to try and get that message out there. So how did you, how did you start [00:21:00] to get to work with law enforcement? 

[00:21:03] Liz Carter: Yeah, it's a, it's a, like everything, it's, it's a bit of a long journey and the whole overnight success thing is the same as in any other industry. You have to work for absolutely years and not be listened to.

[00:21:14] Liz Carter: And, um, I, um, at one point, maybe about six or seven years ago, I just kept sending emails. You know, can I help you? I've got these findings. I need to, I need to help. This is a law enforcement, um, other agencies as well. And I, I equated it really to, it felt a bit like the Shawshank Redemption. Andy Dufresne, get the, get the books.

[00:21:33] Liz Carter: Yeah, getting the books, you just keep going every week, every week. But what really helped was when I was on TV. So, um, there was a program on BBC One called Full Off Or Money. It was, it was, um, hosted by Kim Marsh and it was all about romance fraud. And I saw that they had a casting call. So I emailed and I said, I don't want to be part of the cast.

[00:21:55] Liz Carter: I haven't been defrauded, but I do have information that might be useful. And they were like, [00:22:00] okay, go on then. And that started it all off. And since then I've done three series, I've done loads of other TV work as well. But victims started coming to me. And saying, how, how can I, I've been a victim, what do you think of what's happened to me?

[00:22:14] Liz Carter: Can you analyse it? Can, can it be useful to try and help someone else stop being a victim of this crime in the future? Uh, absolutely. So did all the ethical stuff with the university, made sure they've informed consent. And at that point, that's when police forces started to listen. I started speaking at conferences, or being invited to police conferences.

[00:22:32] Liz Carter: Previously I've just been at academic conferences. where you don't get many practitioners. It's very siloed. That's now changed over the last few years. You get a really good mix in, in most conferences of academics, practitioners, enforcement, uh, banks as well. So that's how it worked. It seemed kind of natural, but also it was a massive, massive slog.

[00:22:52] Liz Carter: I feel very lucky at the point that we are at now. Where I do have a voice and it is listened to and [00:23:00] I get to work alongside incredible people to try and change strategies and hopefully change some laws along the way as well. 

[00:23:10] Adam: I, how it's changed over the last five years, particularly I sit on a working group hosted by city of London police and I have, it's called date safe as you know.

[00:23:19] Adam: And I think it was back in, it was back in 2019. I said, I said to the, to the, the leader, uh, the, the, the, the person that controls it. I said, have you heard of dr. Elizabeth? 

[00:23:29] Yeah. 

[00:23:30] Adam: Okay, chair, let's go with chair. Sorry, I'm not, I'm not in your industry. The leader. The leader. The 

[00:23:34] LouBax: leader, the person, your leader.

[00:23:35] LouBax: The person controls it. The chair of the group. So I, I 

[00:23:37] Adam: spoke to the chair of the group. I said, have you heard of Dr. Elizabeth Carter? She's doing some really great, great work around the language that these criminals are using. And what I, it was, it was re the response I got was, no, no, no. We are just, uh, law enforcement that we, we, we don't bring in any outside agencies.

[00:23:50] Adam: And we we're just, we're just concentrating on, on the law enforcement side of it. We don't want anyone else in. And I was like, okay. And I, and I walked away. I left it. I was like, fine. Okay, no problem. Two years later, I think it was [00:24:00] post COVID, I was sitting at a Datesafe meeting and Dr. Elizabeth Carter was like, Oh, finally, finally, she's, she's, they're allowing it.

[00:24:08] Adam: No, you can't get me off it. 

[00:24:09] Liz Carter: You can't, you can't stop me talking about it. But it has been huge, a huge change, but it's been a lot of work for, for, for you, Adam and Lou. I mean, oh my goodness, of all the people in the world, you have been the most dogged and most determined of trying to get this message out.

[00:24:26] Liz Carter: And. The research directly talking to individuals as well, empowering people, um, to, you know, the whole, the whole scam marshals thing, everything that you do has really kind of come to this moment, but there's so much behind it. And I see all the work behind it is just massive. I'm just absolutely thrilled that we get to work 

[00:24:51] LouBax: together.

[00:24:52] LouBax: We're quite similar in the fact that what happens is wielded to talk about actual people. This is what happens. [00:25:00] And I do think, Liv, one of the, like, your, um, the, the greatest things about you, there are lots of them, but the great, one of the greatest things is what you do is you take all that academic speak, which is complicated and, uh, not inclusive and hard for people to understand.

[00:25:13] LouBax: And you put it into what is really easy to understand and bite sized chunks so it's actionable. So then it doesn't feel like you're climbing Mount Everest and it doesn't feel like you're reading 47 journals that are in big words that no one understands. You break it down and go, like, just don't say lost.

[00:25:27] LouBax: Like you just said. Don't say they've lost their money. So easy. Money's been stolen from them. Don't say it's too good to be true. Don't say you fell for it. You make it really simple so it's actionable. People go, oh yeah, I can do that. Which then, it's those little steps, it's those little steps in relation to it.

[00:25:42] LouBax: I mean, my approach is far more aggressive than yours, but there's no shock there. That's 

[00:25:46] what it 

[00:25:48] LouBax: is, that's what it is. I've got two other bits I just want you to talk about. One of the, one of the things you and I, um, really connect on the well is some of this stuff around neurodiversity and actually people being [00:26:00] neurodiverse and potentially being more likely or susceptible to abuse, which is all forms of abuse as well because of the way, People with autism, ADHD, uh, Asperger's, the whole spectrum of, of different neurodiversities means that those people interpret sometimes the world slightly differently, but are also more susceptible.

[00:26:17] LouBax: And we've done a little bit of work around that, and that's something I really want to look at because we know from historical data and, um, from some really sad stories where young adults who are neurodiverse have actually taken their own lives because they've been a victim of fraud or scams because of the literal interpretation of things that they So I just don't know, is that something that you're looking at in the future to do some more research in?

[00:26:39] Liz Carter: Yeah, absolutely. I'm currently working with academics at Greenwich University. I went there, I went to Greenwich. Oh, it's great. And it's, you know, it's a long term project, but it's really important work. Because, even if we think about accessibility of information, it should be accessible to absolutely everybody.

[00:26:59] Liz Carter: And, we [00:27:00] also know, there has been a little bit of research, not much, but there has been research that people with, um, neurodiversities may, have different susceptibilities that are not captured at all by messaging. So I always bang about, bang on about messaging not, not being, not representing what fraud is, not allowing individuals to protect themselves properly and making themselves feel bad for, for being a victim of this crime.

[00:27:23] Liz Carter: If you're neurodiverse, it's a whole nother level. And we have messaging that actively is, is bad that, that, that, um, says, for example, you know, when you have those lists and it says, don't at the top, and then it says, Send your personal details. Answer cold calls. Tell people the security code on the back of your card.

[00:27:44] Liz Carter: Of course it means, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. But what you actually have, you have a list of things that doesn't say don't in front of it. And you, many people will read that as, this is what I should do. Or they will forget about that first bit. and say, Oh, okay. So [00:28:00] answer cold calls. If when you were diverse, this as another layer of difficulty, another layer of that cognitive work you need to do that makes it almost impossible.

[00:28:10] Liz Carter: And then that blame you have afterwards is even more severe. So not only we not protecting or under protecting people with neurodiversities, they're also suffering psychologically more because of that as well. This. Really important to, um, to, to make sure it's accessible to everyone. And, and importantly, making it accessible to everybody makes it easier for everybody.

[00:28:31] Liz Carter: Absolutely. Uh, that's what we say, that's what we say. You're, you're, you're scooping up everyone. You're 

[00:28:36] Adam: being inclusive. Yes. You're, everyone's getting the message. 

[00:28:39] Liz Carter: Yes. In a simple way. And it'll be even better for everybody. Everybody, in a simple way. And thank you so much, Lou, I really appreciate you saying that I make my work accessible.

[00:28:47] Liz Carter: That's one of the main things I want to do. Not only physically accessible so people can read the research itself, but I'm really trying hard and I've been practicing, I think I'm getting better over the years. No one's perfect, but to try and make [00:29:00] these, these academic concepts accessible. Understandable.

[00:29:02] Liz Carter: I don't, I don't. I bloody 

[00:29:04] LouBax: love you. I could talk to you all day. And I don't, and I, and I find, so for me, like all of the different facets and things that I find really interesting and I think about, so like, obviously, you know, with, with, um, with Bertie having autism, I move into that neurodiversity stuff quite a lot.

[00:29:18] LouBax: And, and actually people that have ADHD have this, um, are more likely to have rejection dysmorphia, which means for romance fraud, which means for romance fraud, which means for romance fraud, And that intimate reading in relation to reading things on text messages and having what they perceive as a relationship.

[00:29:31] LouBax: Rejection dysmorphia. Yeah, so rejection dysmorphia is something which is, um, people who are, who have attention deficit disorder are more likely to have something called rejection dysmorphia, which I'll read, I'll read you the definition because I'll explain it better. It, it causes severe emotional pain when someone feels rejection or it, or fails.

[00:29:56] LouBax: So if you are Neurodiverse and with [00:30:00] ADHD, and you are a victim of, yeah, and if you are a victim of fraud or scams or you're a victim of romance scams or any of those things, that rejection or that failure is felt 50 times stronger than somebody without that. So you've got all these added facets to it.

[00:30:19] LouBax: Which means these people need, these, us, and me, need this extra, we need this extra support. And also, because a lot of the population, 20 percent are neurodiverse, but a lot of people are undiagnosed, they might not know that, so they might not know they need the extra support, or not understand why they're feeling things so acutely, which can then spiral the mental health and the well being issues.

[00:30:39] LouBax: So again, it's understanding this, but like you say, the inclusive messages, but having that empathy, that kindness, that understanding that people their well being effects could be catastrophic. And more work needs to be done and channeled into this as well, because of that vulnerability, that situational vulnerability, depending on what you're trying to do as well.

[00:30:58] Liz Carter: Oh, that's huge. [00:31:00] Situation, situational vulnerability, contextual vulnerability. That's, that's massive. And that's so important because Most people don't want to be labeled as vulnerable, you know, that big V. I mean, there is a legal definition, but also that vulnerability is, is everybody. We are all vulnerable depending on the situation, depending on the context as well.

[00:31:18] Liz Carter: Um, so to try and broaden that definition out is, is really important. And as well, when we, when we're talking about neurodiversities as well, there is, you know, Usually, there's rejection of, of the label of victim as well, because it hits so much harder. And that, you know, no, I'm not, I've not, you know, have I done something wrong?

[00:31:38] Liz Carter: So that's also really important. So when we, when we have those labels, and I do use the word victim because that is the legal, I think we have to use the word victim 

[00:31:47] Adam: because with survivors or something like that, and it just, it doesn't say what it is. And I think we need to change the stigma around the word rather than the word itself.

[00:31:56] LouBax: Yes. But I also think if you're, if you are a victim and you choose to be a [00:32:00] survivor, that's your own choice. So I think as law enforcement, we call it victim, we call it, we call people victims because people are victims, but I think if you are a victim and you don't want to be a victim and you want to consider yourself a survivor.

[00:32:13] LouBax: And have, and do that peer to peer support and shout about your survivor, you call yourself what you want. You do whatever you need to get through it, to be honest. 

[00:32:21] Liz Carter: And we, we should honour that as well. Yeah. You know, take, take note of it. It's very empowering, isn't it? It really is. And that's taken 

[00:32:27] LouBax: from domestic abuse because domestic abuse survivors go, I survived it, I've managed it, I'm, I'm dealing with it, I'm working through it.

[00:32:33] LouBax: So it's, it's that same, um, mental mindset. Personally, I struggle, I struggle with the 

[00:32:38] Adam: word survivor. It reminds me of the Beyonce Knowles song. That's what it reminds me of. 

[00:32:44] Liz Carter: We will break into song, choreographed, we'll do the whole thing. What was the name 

[00:32:48] Adam: of her band that she was in, her group? 

[00:32:51] Liz Carter: BAM. Lee's Child.

[00:32:52] Liz Carter: BAM! I'm just trying to imagine if it's Destiny's Child. Thank you, Destiny's 

[00:32:55] Adam: Child, yeah. Are they not a band? No. A band plays [00:33:00] instruments. 

[00:33:00] LouBax: They don't play instruments. They sing. Sorry. Sorry. Um, yeah. It's a, um, I just, I think we're, um, I'm coming to a bit of an end with it, this podcast now, but I just wanted to just finish really quickly on the, this podcast will launch after the 7th of October, which is where the new, um, And I won't go into who's, who's in charge of it from a consumer perspective, but there's a new system coming into play where consumers who have authorised or victims who have authorised a push payment to a criminal from their bank account, and when I say authorised a push payment, I mean they've gone into their bank account and pushed their money away, agreed to send it away to a criminal entity.

[00:33:40] LouBax: will be able to get their money back for that. The current statistics are saying something like 95 percent of people will get their money back, um, unless they have, unless that consumer had been grossly negligent. One of the things that makes a consumer grossly negligent in that situation is ignoring the bespoke messaging that the bank [00:34:00] has given to that person.

[00:34:02] LouBax: At that minute when they are pushing that money away, Liz, you've been really involved in what this bespoke messaging looks like. Could you just talk to us a little bit about that, please? 

[00:34:12] Liz Carter: We, we have a massive issue here. So the bespoke messaging is pretty much the same as it is until I get my, my sticky paws on it, obviously.

[00:34:23] Liz Carter: Um, but we do have an issue because the financial industry as a whole, I mean, there are exceptions, some banks are absolutely superb, but. As a whole, the financial industry is saying, well, we give warnings and if you're a victim of this crime, then actually it's your fault. Now, if we think about fraud being the most commonly experienced crime, and we're talking about APP fraud, um, being one of, one of the biggest types, we can't ignore the fact that people are still sending their money and not being dissuaded, not being warned effectively by banks.

[00:34:52] Liz Carter: Otherwise they wouldn't send the money, or it'd be much lower. The, the, the victimhood stats would be much lower. What I have [00:35:00] found is that victims of this crime are quite often selecting even the wrong type of fraud warning they need. For example, you go into your bank online and they say, Oh, um, is this a friends and family payment?

[00:35:14] Liz Carter: Is this an email payment? What is this? And they're selecting the wrong one, which means they get the wrong warning. So there needs to be help around that. Victims and individuals, society, don't really understand what's put in front of them. And I don't think it's accessible. It's now 

[00:35:27] Adam: just get through the, get through the, the, the steps to, to hit, hit the button.

[00:35:31] Adam: You click it 

[00:35:31] LouBax: through. Yeah. It's supposed to cause friction, but I know with mine, I've got seven points of friction. I'm like bored. And once you've read it once or twice, you're not reading it, are you? Or, or the first time I think I got so scared I didn't do it for about four days because I was like, it must be a scam, and then I got too scared of my phone.

[00:35:49] Liz Carter: Well, I was, I was the opposite. So I tried to send some money. I don't know how long ago it was. Not that long ago. And it said, Oh, is it friends and family? And I clicked on yes. And it said, do you know the person? Yes or [00:36:00] no. I thought I'm going to click no, and I'm going to see what happens. And there was all sorts of, there's a massive lot of information.

[00:36:05] Liz Carter: And I thought, well, it's good to have all the information, but only someone like me who is entirely invested and really who studies this, 

[00:36:13] Adam: who's passionate about it. 

[00:36:16] Liz Carter: You know, even then I was like, I don't think that would stop me if I was being coerced. Because do you know the person? Yes, I do know the person.

[00:36:23] Liz Carter: Do you trust them? Yes. Does it come from their email address? Yes. So. It, the whole thing is designed to catch a different type of fraud, a cold call. Some, someone saying, Oh, send, send, send, send the money. You don't know me, but believe me, send the money. Those warnings will catch that. No, I don't know them. I, I don't think I trust them.

[00:36:43] Liz Carter: But actually what it doesn't catch is the most common fraud, which is What we're talking about, APP here, where someone really believes that they know, they know and trust that individual who's asking them to send the money. And the victim is motivated to send the money. They're not feeling coerced.

[00:36:58] Liz Carter: They're not feeling rushed. They're feeling like it's [00:37:00] the right thing to do. What they are feeling is frustrated against their bank, who's stopping them doing what they want to do with their own money. This is where the crux is. We need to stop the banks being the baddies that you have to fight against to send your money and actually see them as a seatbelt.

[00:37:15] Liz Carter: A welcome intrusion or friction in that process. Yeah. And that's what they are. Um, and, um, It's not working at the moment and I'm actually really fearful, um, about this whole negligence model and, you know, the reimbursement as well, and there have been limits on this as well. Do you stop being a victim?

[00:37:35] Liz Carter: You know, if you say 400, 000, are you less than, less of a victim? You know, it's difficult. From an 

[00:37:42] LouBax: audience perspective on this, as we've been working on this in the consultations and for years, it feels like, it's been the last two years in relation to this, they keep moving the goalposts. in relation to the limits that consumers can claim for.

[00:37:55] LouBax: So we're currently fighting to, to reduce, to get those put back up again because at [00:38:00] the moment the suggestions are you, it's a hundred pound excess and an 85, 000 pound limit which means we, we're going to see fraud being pushed under the hundred pound limit because it won't be detected and, and consumers won't be able to claim more than 85, 000 pounds and a fraud even if you did several payments of say 60, 000 That will all be considered in one pot.

[00:38:22] LouBax: If you spent 240, 000 by all payments of 60, 000 you're only getting 85, 000 back. Which isn't great from a consumer protection angle. Or like investment scams or pension scams. Those sort of things are going to be missed. So we are fighting to provide an opinion that would change that at the moment. 

[00:38:42] Liz Carter: Yeah.

[00:38:42] Liz Carter: And the thing is, we think about this, this shame and this blame around being a victim of fraud, if you're defrauded by more than 80 odd thousand pounds, you're going to go, Oh no, I did it all wrong. Or there's, there's something I've done wrong. And losing, having that money taken from you, it doesn't make it [00:39:00] any, any less painful.

[00:39:01] Liz Carter: And you think, What's the bank doing, really, to allow that amount of money to, to go from these, to these accounts? That, it shouldn't really even be a consideration. I mean, that amount of money shouldn't be going out through their doors if the protections are good. So my question is, and it's quite inflammatory, really, what are they so scared of?

[00:39:21] Liz Carter: Are they scared that victims are going to be sending their money to criminals under coercion, hundreds of thousands of pounds? If they're scared of that, then their protections are not good enough. Absolutely. And really need to look at their own house. 

[00:39:34] LouBax: And this is, again, the argument that they can't identify it isn't true, I don't believe.

[00:39:41] LouBax: Yes. Because we've had this before with checkbook data where old school, um, scam victims used to use a checkbook a month. The average consumer uses one check a year, probably not even that now. So if somebody in their 80s is using a chequebook a month, there's something wrong there. So we've stopped, I mean, we've managed to, some of the work we've done in the scam [00:40:00] scene has stopped the cheque usage from that perspective.

[00:40:02] LouBax: But you can, there is things that people can do and put these extra protections on consumer bank accounts. That's all we need and which is what we're working on to see if we can get like a hub where people can have extra protections put on their bank accounts to stop this from happening going forward.

[00:40:18] Adam: very much. Yeah. I mean, we can, we can, the banks aren't here to, to argue their, their, their corner at the moment, are they? So let's, maybe not. Maybe we should. Maybe we should. Liz, thank you so much. 

[00:40:30] Liz Carter: I do have to say that, that quite a few banks are willing and are receptive to changing the language. And that really heartens me.

[00:40:38] Liz Carter: So with my very broad brush, for the whole financial industry, there are, there are a Several banks that are working really hard and putting loads of loads of time and money into it. So I agree. And 

[00:40:51] Adam: from what I see, banks are doing a lot more than maybe other enablers of fraud are doing in this space as well.

[00:40:57] Adam: Oh, 

[00:40:57] Liz Carter: absolutely. Absolutely. And they shouldn't be that they [00:41:00] shouldn't be there to be blamed, but they're an important stop place. 

[00:41:03] Adam: Liz, so much coming. I just wanted to quickly mention that you did some, uh, Work around romance fraud with Thames Valley Police and you created a romance fraud ebooklet that is available on Thames Valley Police website and probably in a few other places.

[00:41:18] Adam: Whenever I am asked about romance fraud in my in my world and the other team, I always direct them to that information on the Thames Valley Police website. I think it's absolutely fantastic. You've you you define the The crime so well you talk about each individual aspects of the crime and what it looks like and pictorially as well.

[00:41:36] Adam: It's, it's really, really engaging and fantastic. Thank you for creating that with whoever it was that you created it with. It was really, really good. 

[00:41:45] Liz Carter: Yeah, it was with Thames Valley Police. Um, and yeah, uh, an amazing, amazing, um, officer called Sarah Hamilton Pooley. And it was her brainchild really, so she used my research and together we reimagined it into a much easier [00:42:00] format.

[00:42:00] Liz Carter: Um, it's used nationally now, and has, has been described as the lightbulb moment for victims. Um, in, in their own homes reading it and stopping, stopping that, that fraud from continuing. So it's one I'm really proud of. 

[00:42:12] Adam: I direct everyone to, I will put a link to that into the show notes. Thank you very much.

[00:42:16] Adam: And I also just one last mention, we went to Downing Street together in March because you were an integral part in the government's Stop Think Fraud campaign. I had a lovely day with you at Downing Street. 

[00:42:29] Liz Carter: It was wonderful. It was, it was, it was really, really special. And um, quite often, you know, we do the hard graft and we send, we send the research out on its way, but we don't often get to, you know, polish our boots and go to number 10.

[00:42:43] Liz Carter: So that, that was, that was quite, that was quite It was 

[00:42:46] Adam: great. Liz, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast. It's been an honor and a pleasure working with you over the years. I hope for many, many, many more. Uh, thank you again. As ever, Consumer Friend is here on our [00:43:00] podcast. Please like, subscribe, share, rate, review, all those kinds of things to help get our message podcasts.

[00:43:09] Adam: Uh, Liz, thank you so much. 

[00:43:11] Liz Carter: An absolute pleasure. Thank you for having 

[00:43:13] Adam: Lou. Thank you. 

[00:43:15] Liz Carter: Thank you. 

[00:43:16] Adam: Thank you. Bye. Bye. 

[00:43:17] Liz Carter: This is consumer friend